Jump to content

Menu

What is the point of the Ivies?


MamaSprout
 Share

Recommended Posts

27 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Reading this thread just makes glad that our kids grow up in our home with zero pressure.

I agree. The stories shared here are just horrible to read.  My kid at age 6.5 was still playing shop and counting mushrooms. I cannot imagine being surrounded by this pressure cooker lifestyle, both for me as the parent making decisions about education, or for my kids with the need to put their nose to a grindstone at a very young age to get through all the coursework. 😞

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I agree. The stories shared here are just horrible to read.  My kid at age 6.5 was still playing shop and counting mushrooms. I cannot imagine being surrounded by this pressure cooker lifestyle, both for me as the parent making decisions about education, or for my kids with the need to put their nose to a grindstone at a very young age to get through all the coursework. 😞

I don't think we're a zero pressure household... I guess I don't think ALL pressure is bad. But I can't imagine doing what some people describe, either. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I agree. The stories shared here are just horrible to read.  My kid at age 6.5 was still playing shop and counting mushrooms. I cannot imagine being surrounded by this pressure cooker lifestyle, both for me as the parent making decisions about education, or for my kids with the need to put their nose to a grindstone at a very young age to get through all the coursework. 😞

I think balance is important. No pressure or too much pressure can both be detrimental. The opposite point of view where families unschool, can lead a child to no where fast. My SIL’s kids were unschooled, the kids are in their mid 20s now and are still at home, playing videos games. 

Edited by SDMomof3
  • Sad 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

I think balance is important. No pressure or too much pressure can both be detrimental. The opposite point of view where families unschool, can lead a child to no where fast. My SIL’s kids were unschooled, the kids are in their 20s now and are still at home, playing videos games. 

What I have read of lewelma's experience with her children is a third path, neither pressure nor neglect.

It is the path of mentoring; walking alongside a child and facilitating their growth and learning. 

It is something I want very much to emulate.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, maize said:

What I have read of lewelma's experience with her children is a third path, neither pressure nor neglect.

It is the path of mentoring; walking alongside a child and facilitating their growth and learning. 

It is something I want very much to emulate.

Plus one to this

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lewelma I recognize the scenario.  My kids' friends attended governor or magnet schools and were up doing homework until 1 or 2 am every single night.  They always seemed frayed around the edges and never just had time to spend being teenagers.  Even over the summers they had assignments that were expected to be completed for their AP classes prior to the first day of classes.  

8 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

I think balance is important. No pressure or too much pressure can both be detrimental. The opposite point of view where families unschool, can lead a child to no where fast. My SIL’s kids were unschooled, the kids are in their 20s now and are still at home, playing videos games. 

There is a huge difference between unschooling and the pressures described in this thread.  @maize articulated it better than I am willing to spend the time typing.  My kids don't feel pressure in our homeschool.  Learning is part of our family life.  It is just something we do.  My kids' often push themselves to incredibly high levels of achievement bc of their own internal motivation bc they have a desire to learn.  For our family, that is why we homeschool.  

Edited by 8filltheheart
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Animula V. Blandula said:

Honestly, I don't think so. I think Amy Chua was able to get away with pushing her girls so much without breaking them because she had a very deep, very good relationship with them. She is an incredibly intelligent and empathetic woman. To the outside world it just seems like pushing, and it's hard to tell what it feels like or looks like on the inside, but the relationship between the parent and the children is what is most important, and I believe that part was rock solid for the Tiger mom and her cubs.

(And before anyone yells at me, I personally choose to parent and educate my kids very differently, with my DS doing many fewer hours of structured academics than most of his peers around us.)

I don't know her personally, so have no opinion one way or the other. I do know that, on the one hand, you have the author of Hillbilly Elegy pretty much dedicating his success to her, and, on the other hand, you have people accusing her of "grooming" female law students for SCOTUS clerkships with a sexual abuser. She's a lightning rod to basically everyone. As they say, well behaved women seldom make history.   

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, maize said:

What I have read of lewelma's experience with her children is a third path, neither pressure nor neglect.

It is the path of mentoring; walking alongside a child and facilitating their growth and learning. 

It is something I want very much to emulate.

And this is what I love about homeschooling but we can’t deny that it takes an intentional and dedicated parent to pull this off. Not all homeschooling parents are aware or want to do this. When I read about how many hours she puts into helping her son when he was working through algebra and doing every problem with him, I’m impressed. I never had to do that and in some ways never really wanted to. 
But we can’t also deny that even for her, her son still had to fulfill the requirements for admission but maybe not in the traditional way. Having a child read the economists for years May be a way to fulfil economics credit but when you have a child who doesn’t want to read the economist and just want to take a 6 month course end take an AP exam to meet requirement, you do what you have to do. Taking AP courses does not mean you are not leaving time to explore and engage in creative learning in other areas. There is no one way to homeschool and even witH mine, they will have different paths to wherever they go because they are different kids with different needs. 
I remember 8 saying her High schoolers do 5-6 hrs of schools, with my oldest, we didn’t, most of the time it is 4 or so hours. This is the first year that we are doing 5 hours consistently and that is because we are not doing extracurriculars or field trips out. 
 We take a lot of field trips and have lots of down time because I believe that is how children learn best. My oldest also did a reasonable amount of AP’s spread out over 6 years since she started in middle school. Most of them were done at home. I wasn’t educated in the US and don’t have the cultural capital that someone who had gone through the system had. We have friends with kids at the top schools and I see some of the pressures they are under though I don’t think it’s as bad as CA. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, maize said:

What I have read of lewelma's experience with her children is a third path, neither pressure nor neglect.

It is the path of mentoring; walking alongside a child and facilitating their growth and learning. 

It is something I want very much to emulate.

I love reading about lewelma's journey, but I couldn't do it. My teaching is naturally way more hierarchical, for better and for worse. 

That being said, it's certainly very interactive, and I take a lot of input from my children. I just don't think I work in the same style as her, which means that we're not going to use the same methods. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, maize said:

What I have read of lewelma's experience with her children is a third path, neither pressure nor neglect.

I modeled my approach off of some of the old timers on this board: 8filltheheart, Nan in Mass, Jenn in So Cal, Lori, Hunter, Ellie, Regentrude and so many others who showed me that I did not have to accept school-based assumptions to deliver a rigorous education. I built on the backs of giants. 🙂

Edited by lewelma
  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

My teaching is naturally way more hierarchical, for better and for worse. 

I have often told people that when I was a teacher I was a dictator.  Lots of kids might have needed a facilitator, but that is not who I was.  I am an ENTJ. I cannot not lead. I am way way more comfortable being out in front and directing. I had to learn this more backwards, lead-through-example, influence-slowly-over-years, collaborative approach because my older was an explosive child.  Most of you are new enough to the board that you have not heard all the stories about the explosions, but they were horrible, uncontrollable, and daily. I was desperate, and bought the book, The Explosive Child, which revolutionized how I parented and over the period of 6 months stopped the explosions. The key was to never dictate. It was to always compromise ahead of time, and to not ever get into a power struggle. So I had to completely change my personality and approach to parent and teach the child I had.  In the end, this approach also ended up being the only way I could help my younger, who was clever enough that by the age of barely 2, he went beyond attention seeking and power struggles, and straight into revenge against me for any perceived slight, and he had even started down the path of helplessness and inadequacy. The same parenting approach worked for this very different problem. So my collaborative style was built out of need.

In the end, we all do what we hope is the best for our children. There are always many successful paths.

Edited by lewelma
  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The pressure on little kids described in this post makes me really sad. I’ve interviewed applicants for a tippy top Ivy for almost 20 years, and the ones that stand out and get in are the interesting ones, not necessarily the ones with 12 AP tests, zillions of activities, etc. Cal Newport has a great book on all this, and the nice thing is that his recipe leads to a full, balanced, satisfying life even into adulthood. There’s a great excerpt if you scroll down here (Horseshoe Crabs and Blogs): https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/121349/how-to-be-a-high-school-superstar-by-cal-newport/

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, lewelma said:

I have often told people that when I was a teacher I was a dictator.  Lots of kids might have needed a facilitator, but that is not who I was.  I am an ENTJ. I cannot not lead. I am way way more comfortable being out in front and directing. I had to learn this more backwards, lead-through-example, influence-slowly-over-years, collaborative approach because my older was an explosive child.  Most of you are new enough to the board that you have not heard all the stories about the explosions, but they were horrible, uncontrollable, and daily. I was desperate, and bought the book, The Explosive Child, which revolutionized how I parented and over the period of 6 months stopped the explosions. The key was to never dictate. It was to always compromise ahead of time, and to not ever get into a power struggle. So I had to completely change my personality and approach to parent and teach the child I had.  In the end, this approach also ended up being the only way I could help my younger, who was clever enough that by the age of barely 2, he went beyond attention seeking and power struggles, and straight into revenge against me for any perceived slight, and he had even started down the path of helplessness and inadequacy. The same parenting approach worked for this very different problem. So my collaborative style was built out of need.

In the end, we all do what we hope is the best for our children. There are always many successful paths.

Interesting! Whereas I’m actually very collaborative naturally, and I’ve had to actually buckle down and learn to set rules, because not setting rules resulted in kids that took advantage of the lack of structure...

But I also do find the kind of teaching I like to do totally ineffective if my kids don’t actually think about what I ask. I’d have to do something totally different if creating rules resulted in explosions!!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

I have often told people that when I was a teacher I was a dictator.  Lots of kids might have needed a facilitator, but that is not who I was.  I am an ENTJ. I cannot not lead. I am way way more comfortable being out in front and directing. I had to learn this more backwards, lead-through-example, influence-slowly-over-years, collaborative approach because my older was an explosive child.  Most of you are new enough to the board that you have not heard all the stories about the explosions, but they were horrible, uncontrollable, and daily. I was desperate, and bought the book, The Explosive Child, which revolutionized how I parented and over the period of 6 months stopped the explosions. The key was to never dictate. It was to always compromise ahead of time, and to not ever get into a power struggle. So I had to completely change my personality and approach to parent and teach the child I had.  In the end, this approach also ended up being the only way I could help my younger, who was clever enough that by the age of barely 2, he went beyond attention seeking and power struggles, and straight into revenge against me for any perceived slight, and he had even started down the path of helplessness and inadequacy. The same parenting approach worked for this very different problem. So my collaborative style was built out of need.

In the end, we all do what we hope is the best for our children. There are always many successful paths.

This is why I so much appreciate what you have shared of your path over the years. You took your bright, quirky kids and met them where they were at and figured out how to help them develop their strengths and compensate for weaknesses and keep growing and progressing.

I've got a whole passel of quirky kids in my house, each with individual challenges and strengths. I feel limited by needing to split my attention between so many needs but I've taken a lot of encouragement from the non-traditional path each of your boys has taken. Particularly when you share about relative weaknesses blossoming into achievement as with your younger son and writing.

And I agree completely with you about the great examples of other experienced moms on this board who have tailored their methods of education to the needs of their kids.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, maize said:

This is why I so much appreciate what you have shared of your path over the years. You took your bright, quirky kids and met them where they were at and figured out how to help them develop their strengths and compensate for weaknesses and keep growing and progressing.

I've got a whole passel of quirky kids in my house, each with individual challenges and strengths. I feel limited by needing to split my attention between so many needs but I've taken a lot of encouragement from the non-traditional path each of your boys has taken. Particularly when you share about relative weaknesses blossoming into achievement as with your younger son and writing.

And I agree completely with you about the great examples of other experienced moms on this board who have tailored their methods of education to the needs of their kids.

This is a very interesting discussion for me, because I really am very collaborative to begin with, and it hasn't been enough to deal with schooling issues. But we basically talk things out with the kids to begin with, don't use sticker charts, don't use punishments or time-outs, and otherwise treat them as fully-fledged members of the household. So, honestly, I have way more trouble setting limits than I do troubleshooting problems with the kids, taking their concerns seriously, and not picking battles... 

I guess it all really depends on your starting point. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

This is a very interesting discussion for me, because I really am very collaborative to begin with, and it hasn't been enough to deal with schooling issues. But we basically talk things out with the kids to begin with, don't use sticker charts, don't use punishments or time-outs, and otherwise treat them as fully-fledged members of the household. So, honestly, I have way more trouble setting limits than I do troubleshooting problems with the kids, taking their concerns seriously, and not picking battles... 

I guess it all really depends on your starting point. 

It is very, very child dependent. Each child is so different. I have one for whom the collaborative approach is great, and for win the more authoritative approach is actually damaging. I have another who cannot function well without a lot of structure and limit setting. Without sticker charts nothing gets done. Without limits it’s hard to avoid conflict. There’s definitelya way to set limits, firmly, without being mean or authoritarian in the draconian, don’t ask me any questions kind of way 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, WTM said:

It is very, very child dependent. Each child is so different. I have one for whom the collaborative approach is great, and for win the more authoritative approach is actually damaging. I have another who cannot function well without a lot of structure and limit setting. Without sticker charts nothing gets done. Without limits it’s hard to avoid conflict. There’s definitely a way to set limits, firmly, without being mean or authoritarian in the draconian, don’t ask me any questions kind of way 

And I'm honestly struggling with the fact that both my kids NEED the limits. They really do. They don't function well without them and start getting used to behaviors that are bad for THEM. And they are frankly kind of aware of that fact! 

This discussion kind of reminds about the sleep training discussions I used to have when the kids were babies. I was a babywearer and a very hands-on mom and I really, really, really didn't want to sleep train my kids. I coslept with them. I rocked them. I wrapped them. And at the end of the day, the only thing that got my kids enough sleep for THEIR bodies was... you guessed it... sleep training. And I only resorted to that after months and months of trying to do "gentle" sleep training, and cosleeping, and setting a good schedule, and nursing, and other things... and all those things resulted in cranky, sleep-deprived children who woke up every 45 minutes like clockwork, all night long. 

It felt kind of unfair, lol. Like I was doing all the right stuff and my kids were just not responding, and the right thing turned out to be the rigid, behaviorist, mean-seeming thing. And that's kind of how I feel with their behavior nowadays, too... 

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, maize said:

Particularly when you share about relative weaknesses blossoming into achievement as with your younger son and writing.

I was grateful to him that he long ago gave me permission to write about him on this board -- to seek help for our struggles, and to offer advice based on our successes and failures.  He and I have been in this thing together from the beginning, always collaborating to find solutions to tricky problems. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/26/2021 at 3:18 PM, wendyroo said:

Around here, it is much more common for homeschoolers to have a goal (more like an expectation) of the local U, and put absolutely no planning or effort into preparing their students. The commonly passed along wisdom is that "homeschooling" is better than the public schooling, so no matter what, their little darlings will be prepared for and accepted to several of the average universities in the area.

DE and AP aren't even on most parents' radars around here...then again, neither are SAT prep, foreign languages, Carnegie units or any other standards for honestly issuing credits, primary sources, writing instruction beyond the five paragraph essay, etc.

I went to a talk put on by our local homeschool building about preparing for high school. It was all about padding transcripts with PE and drivers ed, issuing credits for watching Crash Course videos, not worrying about college because it's really not that hard, etc. AP and DE classes were brought up, but were largely poo-pooed as completely unnecessary...but not because they were too cookie cutter, but rather because they took too much work and time and were completely unrealistic in requiring students to read and write and memorize. The majority of the parents seemed to leave the talk very self-assured that they could easily homeschool their high schoolers using worksheets and Teaching Textbooks in just a few hours a day with no particular effort on their parts. "Outside validation" was the furthest thing from their minds.

This is definitely a conversation I've had many times. I think some families are unaware of what the college landscape in the US looks like, with many private colleges of various sizes and endowments, public flagships that are highly regarded and selective, and other public colleges that include liberal arts, research, and non-selective commuter schools. Add community colleges (with vocational programs, remedial classes, and high quality transferable classes -- maybe on the same campus) and for profit private colleges. 

Across that wide spectrum, it's hard to make definitive statements about what colleges want or what is necessary. 

There are also families who start with a measure of contempt for college that affects their decision making. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

This is definitely a conversation I've had many times. I think some families are unaware of what the college landscape in the US looks like, with many private colleges of various sizes and endowments, public flagships that are highly regarded and selective, and other public colleges that include liberal arts, research, and non-selective commuter schools. Add community colleges (with vocational programs, remedial classes, and high quality transferable classes -- maybe on the same campus) and for profit private colleges. 

Across that wide spectrum, it's hard to make definitive statements about what colleges want or what is necessary. 

There are also families who start with a measure of contempt for college that affects their decision making. 

I can tell you that the reason people like local public universities here is the path to them is straightforward. They don’t require you to be an Olympian to accept you into their club or have such a great quirky personality. Instead you can just do your work in high school, take APs, get good grades, and for a reasonably affordable price enter and exit a university. And yes, APs have value, tremendous value when it comes to public universities in CA. I have been watching number of friends’ kids get accepted this year and they are all wonderful kids who have worked hard and none had to squeeze themselves through any hoops other than getting the grades and taking advanced courses (which tend to be APs). We have seen “normal” kids land everywhere - no UCLA and UCB do not require you to be out of this world extraordinary. So this is the reason at least in CA people prefer public universities - clear path, a good name recognition for a local economy. 
so now this thread is about Ivies and their special kids, so I am going to bow out, but I wanted to address why homeschoolers would might want to not discard AP courses especially if their odds of making a math Olympiad are null. 

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I can tell you that the reason people like local public universities here is the path to them is straightforward. They don’t require you to be an Olympian to accept you into their club or have such a great quirky personality. Instead you can just do your work in high school, take APs, get good grades, and for a reasonably affordable price enter and exit a university. And yes, APs have value, tremendous value when it comes to public universities in CA. I have been watching number of friends’ kids get accepted this year and they are all wonderful kids who have worked hard and none had to squeeze themselves through any hoops other than getting the grades and taking advanced courses (which tend to be APs). We have seen “normal” kids land everywhere - no UCLA and UCB do not require you to be out of this world extraordinary. So this is the reason at least in CA people prefer public universities - clear path, a good name recognition for a local economy. 
so now this thread is about Ivies and their special kids, so I am going to bow out, but I wanted to address why homeschoolers would might want to not discard AP courses especially if their odds of making a math Olympiad are null. 

Well, obviously, most kids' chances of making a math Olympiad are null, but the point is that if you stuff your schedule full of AP classes, you won't actually figure out whether there's something your kid is gifted in and is passionate about. You can see @8filltheheart's examples -- her kids weren't math Olympiad people, but the more academically-oriented ones found things that made them stand out. Same for my little sister -- she's nowhere near a math Olympiad level, but she fell in love with classics after reading Percy Jackson, spent years organizing her school's classics club, also put in good effort into her art, and those are the things that got her into a selective college. And she's not an extremely quirky kid or anything. She's bright and interesting, but she's not an oddball like myself 😉 . 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, obviously, most kids' chances of making a math Olympiad are null, but the point is that if you stuff your schedule full of AP classes, you won't actually figure out whether there's something your kid is gifted in and is passionate about. You can see @8filltheheart's examples -- her kids weren't math Olympiad people, but the more academically-oriented ones found things that made them stand out. Same for my little sister -- she's nowhere near a math Olympiad level, but she fell in love with classics after reading Percy Jackson, spent years organizing her school's classics club, also put in good effort into her art, and those are the things that got her into a selective college. And she's not an extremely quirky kid or anything. She's bright and interesting, but she's not an oddball like myself 😉 . 

I really don’t want to engage in this conversation because it seems to be lost on people. I am glad to see so many people make right choices for their children,  but let’s be real that those kids aren’t your average. 
Plus APs are taken in high school. I think most of us have had k-10 to develop our interests. Plenty of time to explore and fall in love with one thing or the other. How one precludes the other is beyond me. How taking 7 or 8 APs (and that’s basically what our PS kids do and end up at all sorts of UCs) in high school can prevent you from figuring out what you are passionate about while you have had all these homeschool years is an argument  I just don’t understand at all. 
And if anybody reading this is in CA, APs and/or DE remains the best way to enter the top schools in our state. And it’s just a bad advice for our state to forgo those classes in favor or home designed ones completely unless you are a special kid with a very special talent. 

And you yourself said your sister had an amazing art talent. Most kids don’t have amazing anything, and most don’t find passions. That’s just a reality. 
 

I have nothing else to add to this conversation because again, OP is asking about Ivies, and I don’t want to derail this thread anymore than I have. 

Edited by Roadrunner
  • Like 9
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Roadrunner said:

I really don’t want to engage in this conversation because it seems to be lost on people. I am glad to see so many people make right choices for their children,  but let’s be real that those kids aren’t your average. 
Plus APs are taken in high school. I think most of us have had k-10 to develop our interests. Plenty of time to explore and fall in love with one thing or the other. How one precludes the other is beyond me. How taking 7 or 8 APs (and that’s basically what our PS kids do and end up at all sorts of UCs) in high school can prevent you from figuring out what you are passionate about while you have had all these homeschool years is an argument  I just don’t understand at all. 

So... again, maybe this is just me, but I didn't really feel able to figure out what I was really into as a kid. I just simply didn't have the maturity to evaluate. Frankly, even as a teen, I was probably too apt to be swayed by other people. 

I didn't take APs in high school, and the output levels still kind of got in the way of me actually learning stuff. I did the work, but I did it pretty grudgingly and without any enthusiasm. Frankly, I wasted some of my high school education because it felt like it was pesky and not interesting. I can easily imagine a kid going through an AP class they weren't interested in and putting in the bare minimum and retaining basically nothing, because that was definitely me in high school, minus the AP designation. 

I've also seen how this played out with my sister, who did IB instead of AP. Again, there was tons of output and not so much learning. If I had been homeschooling her, I'd have definitely wanted to something very different with her than she wound up doing, because the things she needed to work on were skills, not producing tons of essays. 

 

Just now, Roadrunner said:

And if anybody reading this is in CA, APs and/or DE remains the best way to enter the top schools in our state. And it’s just a bad advice for our state to forgo those classes in favor or home designed ones completely unless you are a special kid with a very special talent. 

Hmmmm. So, I'm actually curious -- there's nothing else that will get you in? Sufficiently good test scores won't do it? Is there anything else one can do to avoid the really demanding levels of output APs seem to require? I'm just asking because I have no knowledge of this system, and I don't want to give advice about a situation I really don't understand. It just seems like a bummer, that's all. 

 

Just now, Roadrunner said:

And you yourself said your sister had an amazing art talent. Most kids don’t have amazing anything, and most don’t find passions. That’s just a reality. 

No, she's very good at art but not like, totally amazing. She's a bright kid with serious interests, but I don't think she's as far away from the norm as me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

UCs have eliminated SATs from consideration. CB has eliminated subject tests completely. 
If you want any validation for CA schools it’s either AP or DE. And of course, participation in Olympiads would do, but if I were advising kids, that’s not the path I would send 99.99% of them. 
We aren’t talking about what’s right for 0.01% of the kids here right? 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

UCs have eliminated SATs from consideration. CB has eliminated subject tests completely. 
If you want any validation for CA schools it’s either AP or DE. And of course, participation in Olympiads would do, but if I were advising kids, that’s not the path I would send 99.99% of them. 
We aren’t talking about what’s right for 0.01% of the kids here right? 

Blech. Yeah, I see your point. 

What about AP tests? You can do AP tests without taking the classes, right? 

Would some lower level Olympiads or unofficial things do? Like, AMCs or F = ma or lower computing contests or anything like that? 😞 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I really don’t want to engage in this conversation because it seems to be lost on people. I am glad to see so many people make right choices for their children,  but let’s be real that those kids aren’t your average. 
Plus APs are taken in high school. I think most of us have had k-10 to develop our interests. Plenty of time to explore and fall in love with one thing or the other. How one precludes the other is beyond me. How taking 7 or 8 APs (and that’s basically what our PS kids do and end up at all sorts of UCs) in high school can prevent you from figuring out what you are passionate about while you have had all these homeschool years is an argument  I just don’t understand at all. 
And if anybody reading this is in CA, APs and/or DE remains the best way to enter the top schools in our state. And it’s just a bad advice for our state to forgo those classes in favor or home designed ones completely unless you are a special kid with a very special talent. 

And you yourself said your sister had an amazing art talent. Most kids don’t have amazing anything, and most don’t find passions. That’s just a reality. 
 

I have nothing else to add to this conversation because again, OP is asking about Ivies, and I don’t want to derail this thread anymore than I have. 

For families living in a state with clearly defined criteria and where in-state options are their top choice, walking the known path to acceptance makes 100% sense.  I think families definitely do need to know what they are facing and what it takes.  My comment was directed toward where there is no such requirement.  Kids taking non-AP, non-DE courses can be admitted with scholarships and to honors colleges with a non-traditional sequence transcript.  (My college freshman is an avg student with no stellar accomplishments outside of a decent SAT score.)

That said, taking 7-8 APs would definitely consume way more time in my kids' day than I want to sacrifice in our school yrs.  I do not want to have to confine my courses to the content dictated by AP exams.  Math and science--those are pretty much standard content, but the others, no.  

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

 

Hmmmm. So, I'm actually curious -- there's nothing else that will get you in? Sufficiently good test scores won't do it? Is there anything else one can do to avoid the really demanding levels of output APs seem to require?

Dual enrollment is better if you have access to a good CC or an inexpensive 4 year school that will allow it (and is good). You have a much wider array of classes to pick from to fulfill your area requirements and, if you're lucky, the classes themselves are more engaging. Professors have more latitude than high school AP teachers who must prep for a very specific test. 

The down side is that not all kids have the maturity to handle DE courses. The grades are forever. Most of your classmates will be older (that has both good and bad points). Your day is much less structured. (for both good and bad).

Dd has been very happy with her CC and I feel she got a good education. She has the maturity to chart her own path and solid writing and math skills to succeed. 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

For families living in a state with clearly defined criteria and where in-state options are their top choice, walking the known path to acceptance makes 100% sense.  I think families definitely do need to know what they are facing and what it takes.  My comment was directed toward where there is no such requirement.  Kids taking non-AP, non-DE courses can be admitted with scholarships and to honors colleges with a non-traditional sequence transcript.  (My college freshman is an avg student with no stellar accomplishments outside of a decent SAT score.)

That said, taking 7-8 APs would definitely consume way more time in my kids' day than I want to sacrifice in our school yrs.  I do not want to have to confine my courses to the content dictated by AP exams.  Math and science--those are pretty much standard content, but the others, no.  

We are almost exclusively using APs for math and science as well. 
I have a friend with DD who loves history and she did all history and government ones. It was not hard for her at all because she already had so much knowledge. 
I am also not advocating blanket AP approach unless you truly have a generalist at home who enjoys dabbing into everything equally. 
 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/26/2021 at 2:17 PM, Not_a_Number said:

I mean... maybe? I would guess that if you have a cool, unique profile then you will find a school that will admit you. I guess I can't guarantee that your state school will do so, as I've never looked into it, but I also have no idea what happens if you have great test scores but don't have APs, or if you have other accomplishments but don't have APs. 

But maybe I underestimate how much state schools take APs into account? 

FWIW,I have a road not taken kid who's high school experience was a mix of delight driven dives into specific subjects and DE to check boxes, usually with classes that were ALSO picked based on interest (for example, the senior year English has reading and discussing literary fantasy and being a writer for the CC magazine).  And some of the things that we had expected to do to add some test scores to the mix (like take the ACT again, since the last scores were from middle school, and take a few APs in areas that it would be easy to pull them together so that those scores were there for international schools and colleges that actually wanted them) didn't happen. 

 

Acceptances still included multiple good state Us, including flagships, honors colleges, and competitive privates. And plenty of good scholarship offers, often multiple ones, stacking. So I'd say that based on our experience it's possible to not do everything and still stand out.  That even was was with dropping some of the most competitive scholarship programs due to them just being too stressful to handle in the fall (especially the ones with "How are you, personally, high school senior, going to solve ALL the problems of the world by yourself" type prompts. Maybe most years those would be OK, but not in fall of 2020!!!). 

 

Having said that, we did end up with a different list of schools than we had been considering in about 2019. But overall, I think we ended up with a good short list to choose from, and I'm comfortable with L's current (and probably final) choice. Because, ultimately, there are enough schools in the US alone to be able to weed out those that will be upset because a student chose not to take AP Biology and chemistry in favor of Biochemistry, Neuroscience, and Epidemiology. 

 

Edited by Dmmetler
  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Blech. Yeah, I see your point. 

What about AP tests? You can do AP tests without taking the classes, right? 

Would some lower level Olympiads or unofficial things do? Like, AMCs or F = ma or lower computing contests or anything like that? 😞 

You can take APs without taking the class. My dd took a couple without a class and self study. 
AMC, science Olympiad and the like are viewed as extracurricular. Thousands of kids participate in these contest, unless you stand out, you are view as one of many. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said:

You can take APs without taking the class. My dd took a couple without a class and self study. 

Then probably I'd personally prefer to go that route if I absolutely had to get some APs in. 

 

1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said:

AMC, science Olympiad and the like are viewed as extracurricular. Thousands of kids participate in these contest, unless you stand out, you are view as one of many. 

Well, right, of course you can't just WRITE them, you'd have to do well. That was my question -- how well do you need to do to stand out? I really don't know, so I'm curious. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I really don’t want to engage in this conversation because it seems to be lost on people. 

Not lost on me. I hear what you are saying. As a student I really liked being given a book, and doing the homework, and studying, and taking tests. I would have *hated* trying to 'find' myself. There was a beauty to simplicity. I went to school, ran track, did my homework, and went to sleep. I was very happy and very accomplished. My 2 boys would not have liked this approach to education, but that is why you must know your own children.

I've tried to on this thread only speak to the experience of my older son. And I have tried to be honest with his struggles so people could see that it has never been all roses. One point that I was trying to make, and perhaps I pushed too hard, is that if you actually have a *goal* of an ivy, you need to look beyond APs to be competitive. Personally, I'm not a fan of APs for my kids, because they are survey classes and we like to go into deep dives instead. But the child that was me, loved survey classes, and still does.  I actually am currently reading the Comparative Government AP review book, because I just love having the entire field laid out before me so I can get a wonderful birds eye view. 

I'm very sorry if any of my posts have made anyone feel bad.  This topic is so fraught. It is so hard to have nuanced conversations, with lots of different experiences, and not step on someone's toes. All we can do is the best we can, and that clearly depends on many many factors. 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I'm very sorry if any of my posts have made anyone feel bad.  This topic is so fraught. It is so hard to have nuanced conversations, with lots of different experiences, and not step on someone's toes. All we can do is the best we can, and that clearly depends on many many factors. 

I'm sure you're far too nice to step on any toes, lewelma. It's the less careful amongst us who are clomping around in our heavy boots 😉 . 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said:

This is a list that we were given a few years back, on where extracurricular rank

Rank 10:
*Division 1 athlete
*IMO/IPHO/ICHO/IBO medals
*Intel Science Talent Search Top 10
*Siemens National Winner
*Intel ISEF Top 3 Grand Prize
*Published in Nature, Science, or similarly rigorous journal
*Carnegie Hall Soloist

Rank 9:
*Siemens Finalist
*Intel ISEF Best in Category
*MOP
*Intel STS Finalist
*NFL Nationals winner
*Research Science Institute (RSI)

Rank 8:
*TASP
*USPhO/USChO/USABO/USACO National Finalist
*Siemens Semifinalists
*Intel STS Semifinalist
*Intel ISEF 1st – 4th place Category Award
*Published in a respectable journal or publishing house
*Starting a successful business
*AMC Perfect Score
*Presidential Scholar
*Davidson Fellow
*Presidential Scholar of the Arts
*Scholastic Art & Writing Portfolio, Gold Award

Rank 7:
*Selective summer programs (EX: SSP, Clark Summer Program, NIH Research, MITES)
*Having a patent
*Intel ISEF special award
*USAMO qualification
*ARML Tiebreaker Round/Top Team
*Scholastic Art & Writing National Silver or Gold Medal
*NFL Nationals qualifier
*Appearance on Jeopardy
*USAMTS Gold Medal
*MATHCOUNTS top 12 sprint/countdown round
*State AP Scholar (note: as a junior or prior)

Rank 6:
*Columbia Scholastic Press Crown
*USPhO/USChO/USABO/USACO Semifinalist
*Intel ISEF Finalist
*Science Olympiad National medal
*USAMTS Silver
*MATHCOUNTS Nationals
*First Robotics National Championship
*State Athletic Championship
*Science Bowl/Ocean Science Bowl/NAQT winners

Rank 5:
*Columbia Scholastic Press Medalist (if Editor-in-Chief, 5; if Editor, 4; if other staff, 3)
*Mock Trial State Champion (depends on state)
*National Latin Convention 1st Places Academic Contests
*All-Eastern/All-Regional music
*National History Day winner
*Congressional Award Gold Medalist
*AIME qualification
*Science Bowl national qualification
*National AP Scholar (note: as a junior or prior)
*Class President
*President of a large, academic, serious club (EX: MUN, Mock Trial, Science Olympiad)

Rank 4:
*National Latin Exam perfect score (multiple years)
*The majority of state-level awards
*All-State music
*Science Olympiad state medals (depending on which state)
*National History Day
*JETS TEAMS National Finalist or Regional winner
*Model United Nations Best Delegate Gavel
*1st Place State-level Debate
*AMC 10/12 school winner
*Congressional Award Silver Medalist
*Eagle Scout
*President of a smaller/less serious club
*Student Council position

Rank 3:
*All-County music
*Winning (1st–3rd place) at regional science fairs
*1st Place Regional-level Debate
*National Merit Scholar
*Rensselaer Medalist
*Leadership in an academic club (EX: Vice President, Treasurer)

Rank 2:
*Bank of America Awards
*The majority of local awards
*Essay Contests
*State History Day
*Membership in a club (that requires some work)

Rank 1:
*National Honor Society
*Beta Club
*School Departmental Awards (EX: math dept. award)
*Book awards (EX: Harvard book award)
*School Honor Roll
*Key Club
*CSF
*Interact Club

Rank 0:
*Who’s Who
*National Honor Roll
*National Society of High School Scholars

Oooh, thank you. That does accord with what I know myself. 

So, I see that AIME qualification (in other words, a decent score on the AMC) is rank 5. Any idea what rank 5 buys you? 

And USAMO qualification is Rank 7. Same question for that! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

My impression is that it's not THAT hard to have a patent. 

really?  Ok. I'm just not an inventor type. 

Can I just say that I think that this list is ridiculous. Why should we expect our children to be able to do these things?  Publishing in Nature? At 17?  You've got to be kidding me. I hate this list. 

  • Like 9
  • Thanks 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, lewelma said:

really?  Ok. I'm just not an inventor type. 

Can I just say that I think that this list is ridiculous. Why should we expect our children to be able to do these things?  Publishing in Nature? At 17?  You've got to be kidding me. I hate this list. 

I don't think you NEED anything on this list, it's just a ranking in terms of how much the universities will weigh those things, I think. And it corresponds to what I know (like, for example, that an IMO medal is worth more than lots of other things.)

I think it's useful for people to know how useful some accomplishments are, and frankly is likely to get people to prune as opposed to add stuff. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate ranking kids! I hate it!  I would never want to give a list like that to a child to look at.  OMG, the pressure, the feelings of inadequacy. There are a lot of kids without these opportunities. This seems to be a list for rich kids only. I *really* don't like it. 

I've said my peace and am walking away.

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I hate ranking kids! I hate it!  I would never want to give a list like that to a child to look at.  OMG, the pressure, the feelings of inadequacy. There are a lot of kids without these opportunities. This seems to be a list for rich kids only. I *really* don't like it. 

I've said my peace and am walking away.

So don't give it to your kid? I don't think it's meant for kids. 

I don't see the harm in knowing how universities weigh things. Again, it helps you set your sights. And no, it is NOT only for rich kids. You don't have to be a rich kid to do well on contests. You just have to have a certain amount of talent and work hard. 

Frankly, this list is GREAT for people without cultural knowledge. Take me -- I basically already KNOW how this list works. I glance at it and it has stuff that I've heard about and seen before. But say you're a math whiz from a poor family... you'll get the good grades, but you may not even know that the AMC is going to be more important than your math class grades for a university to look at. This list tells you! 

So, honestly, I don't understand your reaction. When someone writes down "the things that everyone in the know knows," that defangs them, it doesn't make them worse. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So don't give it to your kid? I don't think it's meant for kids. 

I don't see the harm in knowing how universities weigh things. Again, it helps you set your sights. And no, it is NOT only for rich kids. You don't have to be a rich kid to do well on contests. You just have to have a certain amount of talent and work hard. 

Frankly, this list is GREAT for people without cultural knowledge. Take me -- I basically already KNOW how this list works. I glance at it and it has stuff that I've heard about and seen before. But say you're a math whiz from a poor family... you'll get the good grades, but you may not even know that the AMC is going to be more important than your math class grades for a university to look at. This list tells you! 

So, honestly, I don't understand your reaction. When someone writes down "the things that everyone in the know knows," that defangs them, it doesn't make them worse. 

I think the difference in your reactions is that you seem to be saying, "This is the way the system works. I had an intuition about how it worked, but I come from a different culture, so I am glad to see it laid out for me in a way that is clear instead of playing hide the ball."

Lewelma seems to be saying, "I despise this entire system. We should not be ranking our kids. Period. End of sentence. I refuse to even participate in this system."

Unfortunately, this is the system in the United States at present and I am not sure how to change it. ETA: Though, I agree that the system is repulsive and is creating generations of kids filled with horrendous anxiety. 😞  

Edited by SeaConquest
  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I think the difference in your reactions is that you seem to be saying, "This is the way the system works. I had an intuition about how it worked, but I come from a different culture, so I am glad to see it laid out for me in a way that is clear instead of playing hide the ball."

Lewelma seems to be saying, "I despise this entire system. We should not be ranking our kids. Period. End of sentence. I refuse to even participate in this system."

No, what I'm saying is that I don't come from a different culture -- I happen to be lucky enough to know about most of this stuff, and what I don't know, DH knows. However, some poor kid in a minority neighborhood with a singe mom who only finished high school would have no clue about this list or that her kid could earn his way into a better school (and to a better scholarship, too.) 

So what I'm saying is that despising this list is a PRIVILEGED reaction. The people that find this list informative wouldn't despise it. The things on this list don't surprise most of us, I would guess, and I would gently suggest we think about who this list would be useful to. 

 

15 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Unfortunately, this is the system in the United States at present and I am not sure how to change it. ETA: Though, I agree that the system is repulsive and is creating generations of kids filled with horrendous anxiety. 😞  

What exactly is the alternative? Not allowing high achievement to be factored in when kids are accepted into university? How are you going to make sure that private schools don't take these things into account, exactly?? 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

And if anybody reading this is in CA, APs and/or DE remains the best way to enter the top schools in our state. And it’s just a bad advice for our state to forgo those classes in favor or home designed ones completely unless you are a special kid with a very special talent. 

Thank you for saying this because it is accurate. As I said before, I'd love to be as brave and as competent as 8 and Lewelma at creating all these rad, home-brewed courses, but I would be so outside of my depth with my oldest and I am just not convinced that I would be serving his best interests.

What I have tried to do instead is ask him what he is interested in studying, within the general buckets of science, math, language arts, social science, etc. that we need to fulfill for our charter, and then I will go out and find resources that I think might interest him and be a good fit for him. I will give him a large buffet of possible options from which to choose and we then create his schedule in a very iterative process. It is very far from unschooling, but still feels somewhat child-directed.

This year, for social studies, he decided that he wanted to take AP Human Geography after I showed him a preview of the course. He also liked the fact that it would knock out the World History requirement for UC schools if he passed the AP test. Other states don't have the a-g requirements that UC schools require, but Sacha knows that he will likely have to fulfill these requirements in order to apply to our state flagship universities. He would rather knock out the requirement now, so he can have more time for interesting science classes later. So, while the AP Human Geography class might be prosaic, having time later for the upper level science classes will hopefully lead to more interesting research, better relationships with mentors, and more responsibility in his internship with Virgin Galactic (his area of interest -- he was offered the internship in 2020 and they have held it for him due to Covid). 

Edited by SeaConquest
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

What exactly is the alternative? Not allowing high achievement to be factored in when kids are accepted into university? How are you going to make sure that private schools don't take these things into account, exactly?? 

I don't have a clue, but I am clearly not alone in having a very sad reaction to the insane pressure that so many of these kids are feeling. I am in a large FB group called Paying For College. Some of the things the adults say just makes me so terribly sad, especially this time of the year. Their kids' entire self-worth riding on these admissions decisions. It is heartbreaking. Do they feel this way in Denmark? Sweden? I don't know.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I don't have a clue, but I am clearly not alone in having a very sad reaction to the insane pressure that so many of these kids are feeling. I am in a large FB group called Paying For College. Some of the things the adults say just makes me so terribly sad, especially this time of the year. Their kids' entire self-worth riding on these admissions decisions. It is heartbreaking. Do they feel this way in Denmark? Sweden? I don't know.

I don't know how they feel in Denmark or Sweden. But I have to say, I don't think the idea that high levels of excellence in some specified things are highly rated is going to increase the pressure. Rather, it gives some avenues to stand out without going to really pressured route. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oooh, thank you. That does accord with what I know myself. 

So, I see that AIME qualification (in other words, a decent score on the AMC) is rank 5. Any idea what rank 5 buys you? 

And USAMO qualification is Rank 7. Same question for that! 

Well, to give you an idea, my ds attended SSP (he applied bc he loves astronomy, not bc if meant anything else, but it is listed #7 in that list) and he was deferred from MIT.  IOW, none of those actually mean much in terms of spending your entire high school life focused on a specific goal.  There is no guarantee. I know Roadrunner has posted about CA and the hoops they have to jump through.  But, you can avoid all hoops and the student just do the student and all work out if they don't fall into the trap of thinking of XYZ schools are the only ones are willing to attend. 

  • Like 9
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, 8filltheheart said:

Well, to give you an idea, my ds attended SSP (he applied bc he loves astronomy, not bc if meant anything else, but it is listed #7 in that list) and he was deferred from MIT.  IOW, none of those actually mean much in terms of spending your entire high school life focused on a specific goal.  There is no guarantee. I know Roadrunner has posted about CA and the hoops they have to jump through.  But, you can avoid all hoops and the student just do the student and all work out if they don't fall into the trap of thinking of XYZ schools are the only ones are willing to attend. 

Thank you. That's helpful. According to that list, that's equivalent to USAMO qualification as well, and that would be approximately what I would expect. 

I don't think I'd ever encourage a student to spend their whole high school life focused on one of these as goals, but it's good to know how much they are worth in the eyes of a school. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SDMomof3 said:

This is a list that we were given a few years back, on where extracurricular rank

Rank 10:
*Division 1 athlete
*IMO/IPHO/ICHO/IBO medals
*Intel Science Talent Search Top 10
*Siemens National Winner
*Intel ISEF Top 3 Grand Prize
*Published in Nature, Science, or similarly rigorous journal
*Carnegie Hall Soloist

Rank 9:
*Siemens Finalist
*Intel ISEF Best in Category
*MOP
*Intel STS Finalist
*NFL Nationals winner
*Research Science Institute (RSI)

Rank 8:
*TASP
*USPhO/USChO/USABO/USACO National Finalist
*Siemens Semifinalists
*Intel STS Semifinalist
*Intel ISEF 1st – 4th place Category Award
*Published in a respectable journal or publishing house
*Starting a successful business
*AMC Perfect Score
*Presidential Scholar
*Davidson Fellow
*Presidential Scholar of the Arts
*Scholastic Art & Writing Portfolio, Gold Award

Rank 7:
*Selective summer programs (EX: SSP, Clark Summer Program, NIH Research, MITES)
*Having a patent
*Intel ISEF special award
*USAMO qualification
*ARML Tiebreaker Round/Top Team
*Scholastic Art & Writing National Silver or Gold Medal
*NFL Nationals qualifier
*Appearance on Jeopardy
*USAMTS Gold Medal
*MATHCOUNTS top 12 sprint/countdown round
*State AP Scholar (note: as a junior or prior)

Rank 6:
*Columbia Scholastic Press Crown
*USPhO/USChO/USABO/USACO Semifinalist
*Intel ISEF Finalist
*Science Olympiad National medal
*USAMTS Silver
*MATHCOUNTS Nationals
*First Robotics National Championship
*State Athletic Championship
*Science Bowl/Ocean Science Bowl/NAQT winners

Rank 5:
*Columbia Scholastic Press Medalist (if Editor-in-Chief, 5; if Editor, 4; if other staff, 3)
*Mock Trial State Champion (depends on state)
*National Latin Convention 1st Places Academic Contests
*All-Eastern/All-Regional music
*National History Day winner
*Congressional Award Gold Medalist
*AIME qualification
*Science Bowl national qualification
*National AP Scholar (note: as a junior or prior)
*Class President
*President of a large, academic, serious club (EX: MUN, Mock Trial, Science Olympiad)

Rank 4:
*National Latin Exam perfect score (multiple years)
*The majority of state-level awards
*All-State music
*Science Olympiad state medals (depending on which state)
*National History Day
*JETS TEAMS National Finalist or Regional winner
*Model United Nations Best Delegate Gavel
*1st Place State-level Debate
*AMC 10/12 school winner
*Congressional Award Silver Medalist
*Eagle Scout
*President of a smaller/less serious club
*Student Council position

Rank 3:
*All-County music
*Winning (1st–3rd place) at regional science fairs
*1st Place Regional-level Debate
*National Merit Scholar
*Rensselaer Medalist
*Leadership in an academic club (EX: Vice President, Treasurer)

Rank 2:
*Bank of America Awards
*The majority of local awards
*Essay Contests
*State History Day
*Membership in a club (that requires some work)

Rank 1:
*National Honor Society
*Beta Club
*School Departmental Awards (EX: math dept. award)
*Book awards (EX: Harvard book award)
*School Honor Roll
*Key Club
*CSF
*Interact Club

Rank 0:
*Who’s Who
*National Honor Roll
*National Society of High School Scholars

 

Source?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...