What is the point of the Ivies?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

But then you are likely to still want to have a great backup school, and it sounds like many of them are looking at APs and using them to weight your GPA.

I mean... maybe? I would guess that if you have a cool, unique profile then you will find a school that will admit you. I guess I can't guarantee that your state school will do so, as I've never looked into it, but I also have no idea what happens if you have great test scores but don't have APs, or if you have other accomplishments but don't have APs. 

But maybe I underestimate how much state schools take APs into account? 

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

FWIW, I don't think the bolded is true in terms of need loads of APs and DE in order to gain admission to most universities across the country. By far, most Us are simply avg Us and all they want to see is a list of 4 Englishes, 3-4 maths/science/histories, 2 yrs of a foreign language, and a standardized test score that meets their minimal threshold.  I know local homeschoolers whose goal is the local U and who think like the bolded.  It is a totally skewed perspective.   Admission thresholds for all schools are not equal and yet that the fear perspective that is their driving motivation.   They insist that the U requires outside validation with AP scores and DE.  Why?  Bc that is what every other homeschooler here tells every other homeschooler.  It is stated as de fide. I can tell them our experience and it is dismissed as fiction (regardless of the fact that dd is attending and in the HC).  Fitting into the mold is the only perspective that is valid.

Around here, it is much more common for homeschoolers to have a goal (more like an expectation) of the local U, and put absolutely no planning or effort into preparing their students. The commonly passed along wisdom is that "homeschooling" is better than the public schooling, so no matter what, their little darlings will be prepared for and accepted to several of the average universities in the area.

DE and AP aren't even on most parents' radars around here...then again, neither are SAT prep, foreign languages, Carnegie units or any other standards for honestly issuing credits, primary sources, writing instruction beyond the five paragraph essay, etc.

I went to a talk put on by our local homeschool building about preparing for high school. It was all about padding transcripts with PE and drivers ed, issuing credits for watching Crash Course videos, not worrying about college because it's really not that hard, etc. AP and DE classes were brought up, but were largely poo-pooed as completely unnecessary...but not because they were too cookie cutter, but rather because they took too much work and time and were completely unrealistic in requiring students to read and write and memorize. The majority of the parents seemed to leave the talk very self-assured that they could easily homeschool their high schoolers using worksheets and Teaching Textbooks in just a few hours a day with no particular effort on their parts. "Outside validation" was the furthest thing from their minds.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

The commonly passed along wisdom is that "homeschooling" is better than the public schooling, so no matter what, their little darlings will be prepared for and accepted to several of the average universities in the area.

Yeah. I see this attitude a LOT. People parrot slogans about how homeschooling SO MUCH BETTER than having their precious children in *gasp* classrooms, and then they don't spend too much time worrying about academic achievement. There's basically an automatic assumption that anything you do at home is better than anything that happens at school. 

[lewelma]

On 3/27/2021 at 8:17 AM, Not_a_Number said:

I mean... maybe? I would guess that if you have a cool, unique profile then you will find a school that will admit you. I guess I can't guarantee that your state school will do so, as I've never looked into it, but I also have no idea what happens if you have great test scores but don't have APs, or if you have other accomplishments but don't have APs. 

But maybe I underestimate how much state schools take APs into account? 

Beats me. My ds had the equivalent of 2DE and 3AP, the rest was AoPS or homegrown. But we were going for scholarships, so I did have to write my transcript so that they would give my son weighted credit for his GPA. The decision for us was to clearly indicate on the transcript University level study in certain homegrown courses, prove it in the course descriptions and through competitions, and provide a weighted GPA for the purposes of the scholarship. His 1580 SAT score supported the mommy grades. They took everything I said at face value, and he got the scholarship. But, I think that there are people here saying that they can get free tuition at their local universities for a GPA weighted by APs only (not DE and I'm assuming not homegrown university level courses). If this is true, financially the APs may be the only option to get those types of scholarships. Personally, I would pick up and move to a different state. LOL. Because I don't want to be told what I have to teach my kids. My homeschool, my content.

Edited March 28, 2021 by lewelma

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

Personally, I would pick up and move to a different state. LOL. Because I don't want to be told what I have to teach my kids. My homeschool, my content.

Yeah. I cannot imagine going this route. I can imagine sending DD8 to school for social opportunities, but even that I would only do if we could find an option with lots of flexibility. 

But we can basically afford the more selective options, so we're in a privileged position in the first place. I'm sure it's not an option for some people to up and move. 

[Porridge]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

My oldest is 8, so you can take what I say with a boulder of salt, but

a) I expect her to be the kind of kid that might very well benefit from a selective college, given what she can do now

and 

b) I can't imagine going the "chasing extracurriculars and APs" route for her to be able to do so. 

Actually, we've been thinking about this a little bit (only a little bit, because she's small, but we do think about it), and the question for us right now is how much we should encourage her to do math competitions. She's VERY good at math but not currently passionate about it (she doesn't spend her own time on it), but she may be good enough at it to be able to excel without having to put in the hours. 

This is all obviously way ahead of time... I'm just illustrating what I think about when I think about how to help my kid eventually get into a competitive college. The idea that she'll need to do the standard pressure-cooker thing doesn't even enter my head. 

Yes to what you wrote.  A lot of my provocations in this thread (which aren’t meant to be contentious, just food for thought) are really couched in this uncertainty I’ve been mulling over for a long time. DH and I are always unsure of how much or whether to push the kids — math competitions, yea or nay? Science competitions, yea or nay? Writing contests, yea or nay? Trying his/her hand at publishing or publically displaying some of their work, yea or nay? Etc etc etc.  Up until this point, we’ve mostly not pushed or suggested or guided the kids to things that would garner public recognition or affirmation.  The whole college admissions beast makes you confront the question of the purpose behind your educational (or parenting) choices — a means to an end, or an end in and of itself (an interest or passion)? That probably sounds super idealistic and impractical and my more grounded side just rolls its eyes at how idealistic it sounds, but then the debate continues in my head 🙂 because I’m a glutton for punishment. 

[SeaConquest]

13 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

Around here, it is much more common for homeschoolers to have a goal (more like an expectation) of the local U, and put absolutely no planning or effort into preparing their students. The commonly passed along wisdom is that "homeschooling" is better than the public schooling, so no matter what, their little darlings will be prepared for and accepted to several of the average universities in the area.

DE and AP aren't even on most parents' radars around here...then again, neither are SAT prep, foreign languages, Carnegie units or any other standards for honestly issuing credits, primary sources, writing instruction beyond the five paragraph essay, etc.

I went to a talk put on by our local homeschool building about preparing for high school. It was all about padding transcripts with PE and drivers ed, issuing credits for watching Crash Course videos, not worrying about college because it's really not that hard, etc. AP and DE classes were brought up, but were largely poo-pooed as completely unnecessary...but not because they were too cookie cutter, but rather because they took too much work and time and were completely unrealistic in requiring students to read and write and memorize. The majority of the parents seemed to leave the talk very self-assured that they could easily homeschool their high schoolers using worksheets and Teaching Textbooks in just a few hours a day with no particular effort on their parts. "Outside validation" was the furthest thing from their minds.

Exactly this. The high school counselor, our education facilitator, and I are all currently advocating for my oldest at the board of his homeschooling charter because they have no idea what to do with a homechooler who takes Calculus and beyond, who takes advanced science and programming -- they don't yet have the classes created to add to the transcript.

I get that there are a lot of special needs kids that homeschool, but the test scores at my youngest's current homeschool charter are abysmal -- much much worse than our neighborhood school, and that isn't saying much. Well yeah, if you spend all day at the Safari Park and then submit a few worksheets that you pull off Teachers Pay Teachers once per month as "work samples" it's no wonder that your kids can't read, write, or do math. And don't even get me started on the religious homeschoolers who enroll their kids in public charter schools, so they can get the funds, submit secular work samples they pulled off the Internet once per month to their teachers, and then use Christian materials/classes as their main homeschool curriculum (it's always the Christians that do this -- sorry, but it's true). Ugh. 

  

[lewelma]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm sure it's not an option for some people to up and move. 

Fair. 

[Porridge]

26 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah. I cannot imagine going this route. I can imagine sending DD8 to school for social opportunities, but even that I would only do if we could find an option with lots of flexibility. 

I do hope you find good options- given you are in a major metro area, the chances seem better! But I’m in a major metro area and the options seem limited.

[SDMomof3]

42 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Beats me. My ds had the equivalent of 2DE and 3AP, the rest was AoPS or homegrown. But we were going for the CMU scholarship, so I did have to write my transcript so that they would give my son weighted credit for his GPA. The decision for us was to clearly indicate on the transcript University level study in certain homegrown courses, prove it in the course descriptions and through competitions, and provide a weighted GPA for the purposes of the scholarship. His 1580 SAT score supported the mommy grades. They took everything I said at face value, and he got the scholarship. But, I think that there are people here saying that they can get free tuition at their local universities for a GPA weighted by APs only (not DE and I'm assuming not homegrown university level courses). If this is true, financially the APs may be the only option to get those types of scholarships. Personally, I would pick up and move to a different state. LOL. Because I don't want to be told what I have to teach my kids. My homeschool, my content.

I think they took your son’s grades at face value because his schooling was validated by his participation in the IMO. The kids who are able to get that far in math are the exception to the rule. I don’t see an average homeschooler applying to MIT with a homeschool transcript and getting accepted. 
The kids I know who got to MOP and IMO started taking AMC 8 in 2nd grade and started qualifying for AIME by 4th and 5th grade. My ds feels that he is behind because he didn’t qualify for AIME until 6th grade. 
The high school that we are looking at for my son, has about 10 students a year get accepted to MIT. These kids are not the average PS kids, they all took APs and DEs, plus they are MOP or USACO campers, or they are doing research at the University. 
 

Edited March 26, 2021 by SDMomof3

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, SDMomof3 said:

The kids I know who got to MOP and IMO started taking AMC 8 in 2nd grade and started qualifying for AIME by 4th and 5th grade.

And do they love math or is it a means to an end?

[catz]

OP, I don't have time to read or follow a thread but I will PM you our experience ...

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

The kids I know who got to MOP and IMO started taking AMC 8 in 2nd grade and started qualifying for AIME by 4th and 5th grade. My ds feels that he is behind because he didn’t qualify for AIME until 6th grade. 

I’ll say that I’d have gotten to MOP in my last year of high school (dunno if I’d have gotten to the IMO in the US) without such ridiculous exertions and it was actually my idea as a teen and not a situation where I was being drilled starting in elementary...

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SDMomof3]

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

And do they love math or is it a means to an end?

I think that parents can only push a child so far, at some point it has to come from the child. I think that for AMC and AIME it could be the parents pushing but to get to MOP and IMO it has to come from the child. The ones that make it to MOP and IMO have a passion for math

Edited March 26, 2021 by SDMomof3

[SeaConquest]

19 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

I think they took your son’s grades at face value because his schooling was validated by his participation in the IMO. The kids who are able to get that far in math are the exception to the rule. I don’t see an average homeschooler applying to MIT with a homeschool transcript and getting accepted. 
The kids I know who got to MOP and IMO started taking AMC 8 in 2nd grade and started qualifying for AIME by 4th and 5th grade. My ds feels that he is behind because he didn’t qualify for AIME until 6th grade. 
The high school that we are looking at for my son, has about 10 students a year get accepted to MIT. These kids are not the average PS kids, they all took APs and DEs, plus they are MOP or USACO campers, or they are doing research at the University. 
 

This is precisely the kind of anxiety that has pushed me forward my entire life; it is also the kind of anxiety that has made me miserable, which is why I have tried to avoid pressuring my kids by keeping any contests/competitions just for fun/only if they want to/no studying unless it is of their own accord. Older DS seems just naturally predisposed to be a cool cucumber most of the time, but younger DS unfortunately seems to be struggling with my perfectionism/anxiety. 

What high school has 10 per year to MIT in SD? I can only think of one possibility for public school, which would be a fabulous opportunity, if you are applying to the lottery (good luck!!) 🙂 

[mathnerd]

21 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

The kids I know who got to MOP and IMO started taking AMC 8 in 2nd grade and started qualifying for AIME by 4th and 5th grade. My ds feels that he is behind because he didn’t qualify for AIME until 6th grade. 
The high school that we are looking at for my son, has about 10 students a year get accepted to MIT. These kids are not the average PS kids, they all took APs and DEs, plus they are MOP or USACO campers, or they are doing research at the University. 
 

Same here (different metro area of CA). The university math circle we go to hosts AMC (and other math contests) as an enrichment activity because they only teach math topics that are interesting and do not work on competition math. Every year, the director of the circle marvels at how a 1st or 2nd grader taking the test there got very high scores. These kids are aiming for MIT and Stanford right out of preschool, are super motivated to get there, get into AIME at late elementary level and many do math competitions as their main extracurricular activity. My local private high school has kids doing research in 8th grade with university professors on AI and Deep Learning and there are a dozen MOP campers.

[SeaConquest]

14 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

Same here (different metro area of CA). The university math circle we go to hosts AMC (and other math contests) as an enrichment activity because they only teach math topics that are interesting and do not work on competition math. Every year, the director of the circle marvels at how a 1st or 2nd grader taking the test there got very high scores. These kids are aiming for MIT and Stanford right out of preschool, are super motivated to get there, get into AIME at late elementary level and many do math competitions as their main extracurricular activity. My local private high school has kids doing research in 8th grade with university professors on AI and Deep Learning and there are a dozen MOP campers.

IMO, it's no different than the kids who are on a travel sports team at the same age (some of these kids are competing internationally by middle/high school) and the coaches are all talking about the college scholarships they were able to get for the seniors. My oldest was an average soccer player, but the pressure was enormous to get him going on the $$$$$ travel team at that age. I'm like, whatever happened to recreational soccer??? I eventually pulled him out of one of the prestige soccer teams in SD and put him in homeschool PE so he could just have fun with his fellow misfits. He loved it.  

ETA: We've also looked at fencing, sailing, and squash/tennis. All had a very competitive/scholarship focus in our area. He eventually settled on glider lessons, scuba diving, and a local kung fu studio that he adored and then the pandemic hit.

Edited March 26, 2021 by SeaConquest

[SDMomof3]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’ll say that I’d have gotten to MOP in my last year of high school (dunno if I’d have gotten to the IMO in the US) without such ridiculous exertions and it was actually my idea as a teen and not a situation where I was being drilled starting in elementary...

I don’t think drilling is going to make a child excel. Having a passion and the drive for math like you did, is key to success. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by SDMomof3

[wendyroo]

32 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My homeschool, my content.

My impression is that some APs are much more problematic along these lines than others.

For example, I fully expect that my oldest will take the Spanish AP, though I kind of doubt he will take an AP Spanish class. But once his Spanish reaches a certain level, I expect he will be able to do well on the AP test with just a bit of prep to solidify the concepts it most often tests.

I would expect the same of the math tests. And to some extent the sciences. If a student learns a rigorous amount of calculus or biology, even if some of it veers away from the typical scope and sequence, they will be most of the way prepared for the AP test. At that point, a quick run through a prep book should be only moderately burdensome, and a good review getting them read to sit the test.

Obviously, the English and social science tests are more cumbersome. They certainly do dictate course content in fields which could be wide open for interest-led exploration.

[SDMomof3]

50 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

What high school has 10 per year to MIT in SD? I can only think of one possibility for public school, which would be a fabulous opportunity, if you are applying to the lottery (good luck!!) 🙂 

it’s the number 1 public school in CA. No lottery you just have to live within the district boundaries.

Edited March 26, 2021 by SDMomof3

[SeaConquest]

Just now, SDMomof3 said:

Canyon Crest High School, it’s the number 1 public school in CA. No lottery you just have to live within the district boundaries.

https://www.niche.com/k12/canyon-crest-academy-san-diego-ca/rankings/

Yes, that was the one I was thinking. I assumed that if you lived in the boundaries, it wouldn't even be a question of what to do for high school. That seems like a no-brainer to me. We almost bought in a new development there a few years ago, but my husband didn't want the commute to our office in Point Loma/Shelter Island. <eyeroll> Stupid decision. We should have bought the house. Anyway, that seems like an amazing school for your DS. 🙂 

[mathnerd]

43 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

My ds feels that he is behind because he didn’t qualify for AIME until 6th grade. 

we have taken the picturesque route to where my son has ended up 😉 He is in late middle school and just this year, qualified for the AIME without any prep. So, suddenly, he wants to pursue competition math seriously because he loves it when things click for him. I am floundering due to his sudden demands because I did not expect him to pivot like this. He is also getting interested in USACO and though I can coach him, he is seriously behind compared to the young prodigies who have been into competitions since they got out of diapers.

My son is enjoying being amongst that crowd because they are such a lively, smart, motivated and energizing cohort to be around. And all of them seem to be very ambitious 🙂

 

[jrichstad]

I went to an Ivy for undergrad and then did my PhD at a very good state school, where I taught for a number of years. In the classes I taught and TAd, one or two kids in every class would be real stars. In my undergrad 15-person seminars, you'd have 12 of them. So, yeah, peer group is a major factor. That also pays off if you choose to go into certain fields (like someone said above--finance, law, etc). I not-infrequently see my former classmates in the news. 

So, I had a wonderful education and it provided me with opportunities I never would have had at my state university, but I wouldn't say it offers a great ROI in pure financial terms unless you're planning to go into a high-paying profession. From my observational experience, the Ivies are still very much a way to consolidate class standing and to move a selected few into a new class. The reason the peer group is so great isn't that they're all naturally gifted, although definitely some of them are--they've been bred and groomed since kindergarten. (That was not me lol, and it was a real adjustment.) 

 

[SDMomof3]

12 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Yes, that was the one I was thinking. I assumed that if you lived in the boundaries, it wouldn't even be a question of what to do for high school. That seems like a no-brainer to me. We almost bought in a new development there a few years ago, but my husband didn't want the commute to our office in Point Loma/Shelter Island. <eyeroll> Stupid decision. We should have bought the house. Anyway, that seems like an amazing school for your DS. 🙂 

We are looking at homes and moving to the area for him to attend the school. 

[Not_a_Number]

48 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

I think that parents can only push a child so far, at some point it has to come from the child. I think that for AMC and AIME it could be the parents pushing but to get to MOP and IMO it has to come from the child. The ones that make it to MOP and IMO have a passion for math

I can tell you that this is false. One of my teammates was a kid trained up from childhood. He was good at math. He didn’t like it at all.

ETA: removing identifying details, sorry. Please don’t quote.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SDMomof3]

nm

Edited March 27, 2021 by SDMomof3

[SanDiegoMom]

17 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Yes, that was the one I was thinking. I assumed that if you lived in the boundaries, it wouldn't even be a question of what to do for high school. That seems like a no-brainer to me. We almost bought in a new development there a few years ago, but my husband didn't want the commute to our office in Point Loma/Shelter Island. <eyeroll> Stupid decision. We should have bought the house. Anyway, that seems like an amazing school for your DS. 🙂 

Well, if you want my counter viewpoint completely unasked, lol,  we looked at the school before we moved here and decided for my not yet diagnosed but definitely quirky and anxious kid that it wouldn't be a good fit.  And now we have his testing that shows he definitely has slower processing (48 point gap between GAI and processing speed) which shows in his EF and anxiety/sense of constant overwhelm.  We made the assumption (maybe incorrectly, but we will never know) that it would be too academically intense for my son.  My daughter's 40 point gap between her working memory and GAI hasn't been as much of a problem at keeping up with a large amount of information (she has an awesome processing speed) but does also affect her EF.  

I can't help but think back to the mindset I had with my older daughter when she was in middle/early high school (why can't she keep up with the other high achieving students, why isn't she working as hard as them, oh no she will never go to college).  Knowing now how difficult it was for her as a ND kid in a high achieving high school, and knowing how common it is among her old friends to be still so stressed and consumed with grades and achievement... I am leery of going to what seems to me to be another pressure cooker environment.  We chose what seemed to be the middling school in the Poway District to have a more relaxed environment.  I don't want to repeat the mistake we made with my oldest.  Not everyone will have this experience. But her Adhd caused her severe social anxiety starting around 7th grade and she is still a work in progress.  

 

[Not_a_Number]

40 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

I am leery of going to what seems to me to be another pressure cooker environment.  We chose what seemed to be the middling school in the Poway District to have a more relaxed environment. 

I agree with you, I have to say. I want my kids to have some space to figure out what they want to do without an intense amount of pressure. So, for example, I would actually prefer my kiddo doesn't go to some of the really high-achieving NYC schools, because it doesn't seem like a healthy environment.

And frankly... she's already good at academics. I'd like her to be able to also work on other aspects of her character. One of the reasons I didn't want to grade-skip her is that I wanted her to play with other kids her age or even younger, since it was really clear watching her interactions that while she was academically way ahead of the game, socially she was average or maybe slightly behind. And that's fine! Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. But you don't want to focus on your strengths and stop working on your weaknesses, either. 

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I agree with you that the average U is, well, average. But, are we talking about sending our kids to any ole average U or are we talking about whether it is worth it to send them to an Ivy/Ivy substitute vs a state flagship/state honors program or high-quality LAC/CTCL?

My pt is that most flagships are pretty much avg Us.  So are most LACs.  THe CTCLs list is most definitely full of avg schools.  There are something like 4000 4 yr colleges/Us in this country.  There is a tiny fraction of a percent of schools that are highly selective.  Avg public Us are still good schools, but admission isn't based on the same criteria selective schools.

At some point, you felt that your children's needs were better served by outsourcing their educations to ostensibly more competent professionals or perhaps you felt that they could really benefit from the social engagement of their peers. Why did you make that decision at the point that you did? Why not continue to homeschool through the bachelors level and then outsource for grad school, for example? Or just go for the whole enchilada and issue your own PhD? I mean, who cares what society thinks? Throw off the shackles and go for it! I am not trying to be snarky; I am just trying to make the point that, for college-bound homeschoolers, we all get to the point where our personal cost/benefit analysis tells us to hand them off to someone else -- some just do it earlier than others.

Well, snarky or not, I don't agree with your premise.  This country is based on distinct levels of education with different purposes behind them. K12 is very distinct from college. FWIW, I have never said I don't care what society thinks. My pt is that I think that ps methodology is inferior and I do not believe that APs are that great of a goal.  I think there are more worthy objectives that I want my kids spending their time pursuing.  I am willing for doors to be closed in order for them to have that opportunity.  Nor am I attempting to tell others what to do.  My pt is that there is a false narrative that is repeated as truth---that DE and APs are required as proof.     

 

3 hours ago, WTM said:

.  I think the crux of what @8filltheheartis saying, IIUC - is that though it might appear that choosing a different path is limiting options, it is not, in fact, and may open additional options.

Yes.  My kids received the scholarships that they did bc of what they did outside of the norm.  My ds did not attend Bama full-ride bc he received the NM scholarship.  He attended full-ride bc he received multiple stacking scholarships (one from the research honors program, 2 from the physics dept, and the presidential.)  3 of those he would not have received if he had just been another cookie cutter applicant who had followed a standard high school sequence.  My dd who is a Top Scholar didn't stand out bc of looking everyone else.  She stood out bc she didn't.

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

there are just not a lot of kids who do a ton of AP courses and that is the way they get in. If you are serious about admissions, and that is your goal, you definitely need to look way way bigger than APs. 

I have tried to have this conversation with my sil.  My nephew is a high test score kind of kid, but he is just like every other kid out there.  She sees him in terms of his local peers.  I have tried to get her to think in terms of international competition with amazing accomplishments.

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

The problem is that you can't do everything. So if you want to go for the lottery of elite admissions you need to have the time to do something different and special and that means that there is less time for APs. But then you are likely to still want to have a great backup school, and it sounds like many of them are looking at APs and using them to weight your GPA. But of course you can do it all.  So each family will have to make a decision on how to spend limited time, and those choices cannot maximize competitiveness for both of these two admissions processes.

Personally, I'm with 8filltheheart, I'd rather march to my own drummer and let the chips fall where they may. I left the school system because I wanted to educate my children, not because I wanted to *signal* that they were educated. 

Yes.  You can do a couple of APs maybe and follow the interest-driven approach, but no, you can't really do both.  It really is an either/or decision.  

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

but maybe I underestimate how much state schools take APs into account? 

We have not experienced any focus on APs.   For example, I know that GT really wants post-high school equivalent (so APs tend to be the default for ps students).  I also think that DE isn't weighed on APs is a generic response.  I suspect if the question was asked of the homeschool admissions counselor about DE courses were taken at a 4 yr university and/or were post-AP level that the courses would not be dismissed.  A lot of CCs have poor quality courses, so the POV is based on that.  We had been told by others that GT would not accept our ds's DE courses and that he would have to retake them.  We talked to the dean, he asked ds to submit the syllabi, and all of his courses would have been accepted for credit if he had attended.  

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

 If this is true, financially the APs may be the only option to get those types of scholarships. Personally, I would pick up and move to a different state. LOL. Because I don't want to be told what I have to teach my kids. My homeschool, my content.

It doesn't take moving to another state. 🙂 Kids can apply OOS at schools that offer large scholarships.  That is why my dd is at USC.  There wasn't a single in-state option that offered French and Russian at a level that she needed.  She only applied to OOS options.

Edited March 26, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

So, suddenly, he wants to pursue competition math seriously because he loves it when things click for him.

For what it's worth, I got into contests for real in Grades 9 and 10 🙂 . I mean, it might have been younger if my life had gone differently, but we immigrated when I was in Grade 6, so my middle school experience was pretty consumed by language acquisition and adjusting to our new life (which involved having a single mom, as we left the rest of the family back in Ukraine.) Oh, and by watching way too much TV while my mom was at work in the evening 😉 . I barely did any homework at all in Grade 8. I kind of snapped out of it in Grade 9, and then I started thinking about what I wanted to do with myself. 

Anyway, my own trajectory makes me kind of wonder how this works for the kids who are qualifying for the AIME in Grade 4. I liked math contests as a little kid, but I also liked my art classes (I'm moderately talented in art) and my piano classes (I'm not at all talented in music, lol), and I liked reading lots of books and going on hikes with my family... and yet I can't imagine being able to make it to the AIME as a teeny kid without really focusing on the math to the exclusion of other things. And I don't think I would have had the self-knowledge to pick that for myself at that age... by late middle school or high school, yes, but I don't think most kids have that ability before then. 

DD8 is likely to wind up qualifying for the AIME in grade 5 or 6 herself, if she stays on her current trajectory. But I've tried pretty hard not to deform what we're doing much to prepare for the contests, and I'd really like her to have the free time to figure out what it is that SHE wants. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

We have not experienced any focus on APs.   For example, I know that GT really wants post-high school equivalent (so APs tend to be the default for ps students).  I also think that DE isn't weighed on APs is a generic response.  I suspect if the question was asked of the homeschool admissions counselor about DE courses were taken at a 4 yr university and/or were post-AP level that the courses would not be dismissed.  A lot of CCs have poor quality courses, so the POV is based on that.  We had been told by others that GT would not accept our ds's DE courses and that he would have to retake them.  We talked to the dean, he asked ds to submit the syllabi, and all of his courses would have been accepted for credit if he had attended.  

Great. That's good to hear, because I can't imagine going the cookie-cutter route. My kids ALREADY have opinions on what they want to learn. Like, DD8 chose to spend 3 months studying viruses at age 7. This was HER decision and she was very excited to work on it, and now she knows a lot about viruses (and she then asked to read some more serious biology together, so she now has a really good background in biology as a 3rd grader.) And I can't imagine making her jump through very specific hoops in order to maybe get taken more seriously at the state schools... so I'm glad that hasn't been your experience. 

And she asked to start piano when she was little. And she recently asked to learn Russian. And she's been very serious and committed to all of her choices, so I trust her to pick things she genuinely cares about. And those won't be the "standard" things, I'm sure. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SeaConquest]

55 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Well, if you want my counter viewpoint completely unasked, lol,  we looked at the school before we moved here and decided for my not yet diagnosed but definitely quirky and anxious kid that it wouldn't be a good fit.  And now we have his testing that shows he definitely has slower processing (48 point gap between GAI and processing speed) which shows in his EF and anxiety/sense of constant overwhelm.  We made the assumption (maybe incorrectly, but we will never know) that it would be too academically intense for my son.  My daughter's 40 point gap between her working memory and GAI hasn't been as much of a problem at keeping up with a large amount of information (she has an awesome processing speed) but does also affect her EF.  

I can't help but think back to the mindset I had with my older daughter when she was in middle/early high school (why can't she keep up with the other high achieving students, why isn't she working as hard as them, oh no she will never go to college).  Knowing now how difficult it was for her as a ND kid in a high achieving high school, and knowing how common it is among her old friends to be still so stressed and consumed with grades and achievement... I am leery of going to what seems to me to be another pressure cooker environment.  We chose what seemed to be the middling school in the Poway District to have a more relaxed environment.  I don't want to repeat the mistake we made with my oldest.  Not everyone will have this experience. But her Adhd caused her severe social anxiety starting around 7th grade and she is still a work in progress.  

 

I didn't want to buy the house for the schools (except for resale value); I just really liked the house. It had an amazing 3rd floor bonus room that I thought would make an incredible homeschool room. Now I am mulling over new construction going in near Sorrento Valley-ish. https://www.live3roots.com/  DH is OK with the commute, but I just know that we are going to get screwed buying at the top of the market again. Ugh. Who knows -- I may not even be employed in time before everything sells out. 

Re pressure cooker schools, I am totally with you and nervous about how S going to fit into his totally new environment. I am already seeing how EF issues are playing a role as the pace in middle school has picked up. Especially with me leaving for 6 weeks to finish my clinicals in Texas, I am petrified that he is going to totally flounder without me there. I hope that he rises to the challenge, but yeah... These firstborns have it rough; I really need a handbook. 🙂  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

These firstborns have it rough; I really need a handbook. 🙂  

I do feel that way myself, lol. 

[SDMomof3]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

For what it's worth, I got into contests for real in Grades 9 and 10 🙂 . I mean, it might have been younger if my life had gone differently, but we immigrated when I was in Grade 6, so my middle school experienced was pretty consumed by language acquisition and adjusting to our new life (which involved having a single mom, as we left the rest of the family back in Ukraine.) Oh, and by watching way too much TV while my mom was at work in the evening 😉 . I barely did any homework at all in Grade 8. I kind of snapped out of it in Grade 9, and then I started thinking about what I wanted to do with myself. 

Anyway, my own trajectory makes me kind of wonder how this works for the kids who are qualifying for the AIME in Grade 4. I liked math contests as a little kid, but I also liked my art classes (I'm moderately talented in art) and my piano classes (I'm not at all talented in music, lol), and I liked reading lots of books and going on hikes with my family... and yet I can't imagine being able to make it to the AIME as a teeny kid without really focusing on the math to the exclusion of other things. And I don't think I would have had the self-knowledge to pick that for myself at that age... by late middle school or high school, yes, but I don't think most kids have that ability before then. 

DD8 is likely to wind up qualifying for the AIME in grade 5 or 6 herself, if she stays on her current trajectory. But I've tried pretty hard not to deform what we're doing much to prepare for the contests, and I'd really like her to have the free time to figure out what it is that SHE wants. 

The young AIME qualifiers that we know all have parents with PhDs or other advance degrees. They are normal kids that go to PS and play sports. I think what made the difference for these kids is having educated parents who care about their kids education and can teach advanced concepts. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

The young AIME qualifiers that we know all have parents with PhDs or other advanced degrees. They are normal kids that go to PS and play sports. I think what made the difference for these kids is having educated parents who care about their kids education and can teach advanced concepts. 

Well, yes, I'm also a parent with a Ph.D, and I can't imagining training my kids to qualify for the AIME at that age without sacrificing something, concepts or no concepts. It just takes TIME. Like, I'm sure I could do it if I wanted to, but it would require making different choices about what we're doing. 

I mean, they must have been spending SOME time on contest prep outside school, right? AMC 10 topics aren't what you learn at school. Do you happen to know how much? 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SanDiegoMom]

36 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, yes, I'm also a parent with a Ph.D, and I can't imagining training my kids to qualify for the AIME at that age without sacrificing something, concepts or no concepts. It just takes TIME. Like, I'm sure I could do it if I wanted to, but it would require making different choices about what we're doing. 

I mean, they must have been spending SOME time on contest prep outside school, right? AMC 10 topics aren't what you learn at school. Do you happen to know how much? 

I would absolutely imagine that would have to be the case. I mean, my kids went k-2 in what was considered a very good elementary school in the "good" district in SD and there were a lot of doctors and engineer's kids... but the curriculum was very stuck towards the average. Acceleration was not easy.  My son was the outlier and I was allowed to come in twice a week to do math separately with him, and he was the first one who got the acceleration.  But Saturday school was  the norm so I'm assuming that is where most extra academic acceleration was happening. We did not want to do extra because all day school was so much for him as it was.  Holding it together for six hours every day... doing extra on the weekends or nights was just not feasible. Plus older sister was a mess and dad was deployed half the time and mom just had enough on her plate holding her sh*t together, lol. 

[SDMomof3]

32 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, yes, I'm also a parent with a Ph.D, and I can't imagining training my kids to qualify for the AIME at that age without sacrificing something, concepts or no concepts. It just takes TIME. Like, I'm sure I could do it if I wanted to, but it would require making different choices about what we're doing. 

I mean, they must have been spending SOME time on contest prep outside school, right? AMC 10 topics aren't what you learn at school. Do you happen to know how much? 

One boy that we are close to, didn’t spend time on contest prep. He was one of my dd’s best friend. He went to PS, participated in science Olympiad, USACO, played a competitive sport, and played piano(actually considered a piano prodigy). I know that he would spend 1hour a on AoPS in the evenings. Most of his time went into playing the piano.  But this is also a child that could have gone to college at 10 or 11, but the parents didn’t want early college for him. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

One boy that we are close to, didn’t spend time on contest prep. He was one of my dd’s best friend. He went to PS, participated in science Olympiad, USACO, played a competitive sport, and played piano(actually considered a piano prodigy). I know that he would spend 1hour a on AoPS in the evenings. Most of his time went into playing the piano.  But this is also a child that could have gone to college at 10 or 11, but the parents didn’t want early college for him. 

I'm not criticizing the choices at all, but if he's doing math at school and also AoPS, then yes, he's doing contest prep, in the sense that he's spending double the time on math that a kid who doesn't do AoPS does. Between that and the piano, I imagine he didn't have much unstructured time? I understand that decision... it's just not how I wanted to run my kids' lives. 

[SDMomof3]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not criticizing the choices at all, but if he's doing math at school and also AoPS, then yes, he's doing contest prep, in the sense that he's spending double the time on math that a kid who doesn't do AoPS does. Between that and the piano, I imagine he didn't have much unstructured time? I understand that decision... it's just not how I wanted to run my kids' lives. 

You’re right he didn’t have a lot of unstructured time and it’s not a path I would take with my own kids. But it was the right choice for this child because the parents were living and working in different cities at the time. The mom had to fill up his day with activities, because she was basically a single working mom. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said:

You’re right he didn’t have a lot of unstructured time and it’s not a path I would take with my own kids. But it was the right choice for this child because the parents were living and working in different cities at the time. The mom had to fill up his day with activities, because she was basically a single working mom. 

Ah, that sounds hard 😞. What's he doing nowadays? 

[SanDiegoMom]

I remember a friend of ours whose kid swam competitively and got injured and had to drop out. They learned more eventually about the coach's philosophy, which they compared to throwing eggs at the wall and seeing which ones didn't break -- those would become the great swimmers.  Which made it seem like the coach was turning out incredible swimmers, but the ones that broke along the way weren't really acknowledged.

There is a lot of pressure to achieve, and it's really applied in differing amounts.  And maybe there are kids that make it and are successful and happy, but I would imagine (and have seen) a lot of broken kids along the way, who have anxiety disorders or who flounder when they are told to direct their own course in college. And a whole lot of resentment.  My daughter's friends both grew up with intense pressure to achieve and are still not happy as they approach college graduation. Not to say that mine is either, lol.  But at least she knows that our expectations are not to be successful in everything, but to just be happy with herself and learn how to take care of her own mental health. 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by SanDiegoMom

[SDMomof3]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ah, that sounds hard 😞. What's he doing nowadays? 

He is a sophomore at Yale, majoring in CS

[Not_a_Number]

@SanDiegoMom -- honestly, this is how we wound up homeschooling. Because I both wanted a high level of academic achievement and also for my kids to have plenty of time to play and be kids and figure out what they like to do. And I didn't see how to structure that life around public school, where they weren't going to be learning much, but where they were going to be spending 8 hours a day... 

Right now, we can do very serious piano and very serious math and serious Russian, and DD8 can still build pillow forts and run her "secret club" with her friends and watch movies on weekends and play cards with her grandparents. Pre-pandemic, she could do her academics and also take gymnastics and climb all the structures at the playgrounds and take fun classes with friends. Basically... there are only 24 hours in a day, and I didn't see how to fit everything I wanted to into them without sacrificing something. That something turned out to be school 😉 . 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SeaConquest]

My con law professor, Jed Rubenfeld, is married to the one and only Amy Chua, of Tiger Mom fame. He was on loan to us from Yale my 1L year. 

My dean of students was Julie Lythcott-Haims, author of "How to Raise An Adult."

So, one espouses this very rigid, prescribed form of parenting and has two seemingly capable daughters doing well for themselves. The other wrote a manifesto against helicopter parenting because of all the kids she saw at Stanford that couldn't adult their way out of a paper bag. So yeah, I don't have a clue who to believe or what to do anymore. 🙂   

ETA: Query whether the Rubenfeld-Chua girls were just lucky not to end up broken eggs?

Edited March 27, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

ETA: Query whether the Rubenfeld-Chua girls were just lucky not to end up broken eggs?

I keep thinking I ought to read that book to at least know what all the fuss is about! 

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

I think they took your son’s grades at face value because his schooling was validated by his participation in the IMO. The kids who are able to get that far in math are the exception to the rule. I don’t see an average homeschooler applying to MIT with a homeschool transcript and getting accepted.

Well, not exactly. He didn't do well in the IMO (3 honourable mentions, 3 years in a row). And MIT doesn't even take all the Gold medalists throughout the world. But you are right, MIT accepts very few homeschoolers, only 5 out of 1200 my son's year, and 2 of them were full time DE for all of highschool, so really just 3 (one was the cellist who played with his foot). Also keep in mind that there are many paths to MIT. Math competitions only got in about 40 of kids in out of 1200. My ds was well aware of these kids because they all knew each other from MOP, so they had ready made friends that most of the other kids did not. 

I

[8filltheheart]

Reading this thread just makes glad that our kids grow up in our home with zero pressure.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Well, not exactly. He didn't do well in the IMO (3 honourable mentions, 3 years in a row). And MIT doesn't even take all the Gold medalists throughout the world. But you are right, MIT accepts very few homeschoolers, only 5 out of 1200 my son's year, and 2 of them were full time DE for all of highschool, so really just 3 (one was the cellist who played with his foot). Also keep in mind that there are many paths to MIT. Math competitions only got in about 40 of kids in out of 1200. My ds was well aware of these kids because they all knew each other from MOP, so they had ready made friends that most of the other kids did not. I

"Not doing well at the IMO" is still very good outside validation, though. Getting any problems on the IMO is unusual. So you have a kid with 

a) an interesting, cool transcript

and 

b) some proof that they are a deep thinker. 

That's different than just having a). 

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, jrichstad said:

 I wouldn't say it offers a great ROI in pure financial terms unless you're planning to go into a high-paying profession.

I agree with this. 

[VminusEplusFis2]

31 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Query whether the Rubenfeld-Chua girls were just lucky not to end up broken eggs?

Honestly, I don't think so. I think Amy Chua was able to get away with pushing her girls so much without breaking them because she had a very deep, very good relationship with them. She is an incredibly intelligent and empathetic woman. To the outside world it just seems like pushing, and it's hard to tell what it feels like or looks like on the inside, but the relationship between the parent and the children is what is most important, and I believe that part was rock solid for the Tiger mom and her cubs.

(And before anyone yells at me, I personally choose to parent and educate my kids very differently, with my DS doing many fewer hours of structured academics than most of his peers around us.)

Edited March 27, 2021 by Animula V. Blandula