8filltheheart Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said: So don't give it to your kid? I don't think it's meant for kids. I don't see the harm in knowing how universities weigh things. Again, it helps you set your sights. And no, it is NOT only for rich kids. You don't have to be a rich kid to do well on contests. You just have to have a certain amount of talent and work hard. Frankly, this list is GREAT for people without cultural knowledge. Take me -- I basically already KNOW how this list works. I glance at it and it has stuff that I've heard about and seen before. But say you're a math whiz from a poor family... you'll get the good grades, but you may not even know that the AMC is going to be more important than your math class grades for a university to look at. This list tells you! So, honestly, I don't understand your reaction. When someone writes down "the things that everyone in the know knows," that defangs them, it doesn't make them worse. That list is from College Confidential. It IS meant for high school students so they can spend their yrs grooming themselves for admissions. If you want to see the cut throat attitude toward elite admissions, spend time reading there bc that is its purpose. These kids are intense and stressed to the max. (if you think the couple of posts in this thread show pressure, they are nothing.) I know the attitude and the lives. We simply reject it completely. We let our kids do themselves and then let things fall where they do in terms of college. We don't do anything strictly for college admissions other than standardized testing bc that is not what we want out of our children's educations. But, you better believe that there are a very large number of students whose sole purpose in just about everything they do is grooming themselves for admissions. 11 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) I find that list insane because it means that working on and getting a gold medal in Science Olympiad for Herpetology (which means memorizing long lists of names and range maps for specific species) is potentially worth more than working on actual research in Herpetology because it typically takes 8-10 YEARS for a herp project to get to publication in a journal like Herpetological Review, Journal of Herpetology, Herpetologica, or similar ones in other countries. Something like Nature is even less common. It just plain takes years to get enough data to have something novel. Now, during that 8-10 years there probably have been a couple of PhD's granted, a few master's and honors thesis, and there might well be 50 peopleat different institutions and have multiple papers, but it takes years to get there. That's one reason why conferences are so important in the field-it's a chance to present work in progress and at multiple stages and get feedback and observations. And most high school science fairs/project competitions (like Davidson Fellows) either outright exclude or have rules that make such projects non-submittable. That's just ONE field. Edited March 28, 2021 by Dmmetler 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDMomof3 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, fourisenough said: Source? It was given to by a college counselor we hire to help dd junior year of high school 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said: It was given to by a college counselor we hire to help dd junior year of high school For what it's worth, it looks about right to me. I'm sure you could debate the exact rankings, but that accords well with things I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said: Well, to give you an idea, my ds attended SSP (he applied bc he loves astronomy, not bc if meant anything else, but it is listed #7 in that list) and he was deferred from MIT. IOW, none of those actually mean much in terms of spending your entire high school life focused on a specific goal. There is no guarantee. I know Roadrunner has posted about CA and the hoops they have to jump through. But, you can avoid all hoops and the student just do the student and all work out if they don't fall into the trap of thinking of XYZ schools are the only ones are willing to attend. By way of example, Sacha is likely attending Astronomy Camp this summer because of 8 and her DS. (It was cancelled last summer and will likely be virtual this summer, but Dr. Don has assured me that, if camp happens this summer, that Sacha can attend.) Sacha has been obsessed with space since he was two. I have been on these boards since 2013, when we were first considering homeschooling. Sacha was 4 at that time and I was pregnant with Ronen. 8 mentioned her son's experience with Astronomy Camp and, after researching it and thinking that it could possibly be a good fit for Sacha, I wrote it down to show him when the time was right. Fast forward 8 years and here we are. I likely wouldn't have known about the camp without 8's experience, and he certainly doesn't want to attend the camp as some sort of resume-building exercise for XYZ school. He just really loves space and the thought of spending a week looking through enormous telescopes in the dark skies of Arizona is an incredibly exciting thing for a 12-year old city kid who dreams of the stars. Edited March 28, 2021 by SeaConquest 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said: It was given to by a college counselor we hire to help dd junior year of high school That list has been posted on CC repeatedly. I saw it 2013/2014 during ds's application cycle and then again in 16/17 during dd's. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 1 hour ago, lewelma said: How is having a patent rank 7 ?!?!? Is your mom a lawyer? Can you afford a lawyer? Are you savvy with Nolo Press? We know a kid admitted to Stanford who supposedly had multiple patents. The thing is, patents are publicly searchable. We could only independently confirm one patent, which was basically for an object indistinguishable from bicycle training wheels. Yes, the recent grads who populate admissions committees are easy to fool. 9 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dmmetler said: I find that list insane because it means that working on and getting a gold medal in Science Olympiad for Herpetology (which means memorizing long lists of names and range maps for specific species) is potentially worth more than working on actual research in Herpetology because it typically takes 8-10 YEARS for a herp project to get to publication in a journal like Herpetological Review, Journal of Herpetology, Herpetologica, or similar ones in other countries. Something like Nature is even less common. Well, the point is that something verifiable is better than something that is not, yes! I agree with you that doing good research is worth more, but if you can't publish it, how is a school supposed to know you really did it? On the other hand, if you did good research and have a recommendation from a respected professor saying so... then you'd probably get plenty of credit, yes. Quote It just plain takes years to get enough data to have something novel. Now, during that 8-10 years there probably have been a couple of PhD's granted, a few master's and honors thesis, and there might well be 50 peopleat different institutions and have multiple papers, but it takes years to get there. That's one reason why conferences are so important in the field-it's a chance to present work in progress and at multiple stages and get feedback and observations. And most high school science fairs/project competitions (like Davidson Fellows) either outright exclude or have rules that make such projects non-submittable. That's just ONE field. I can see how there's a disadvantage to this particular field, but I see no reason that means one should dismiss the list. Edited March 28, 2021 by Not_a_Number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 6 minutes ago, daijobu said: Is your mom a lawyer? Can you afford a lawyer? Are you savvy with Nolo Press? We know a kid admitted to Stanford who supposedly had multiple patents. The thing is, patents are publicly searchable. We could only independently confirm one patent, which was basically for an object indistinguishable from bicycle training wheels. Yes, the recent grads who populate admissions committees are easy to fool. That’s great. That kid literally reinvented the wheel. He should be accepted based on sense of humor alone. 20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daijobu Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, madteaparty said: That’s great. That kid literally reinvented the wheel. He should be accepted based on sense of humor alone. I can't believe I missed that opportunity to milk more humor from this. I'm going to steal it for my next cocktail party, lol. Edited March 28, 2021 by daijobu 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said: I don't see the harm in knowing how universities weigh things. Ok, so I've had a bit of time to calm down. Sorry for sharing my angst. 🙂 Just an FYI, this list is not the Truth, with a capital T. My son told me that 8 of his IMO/USAMO medalist friends went out to dinner one night, and 6 of the 8 had been rejected by both Harvard and Stanford. So no, you actually don't know how Ivy's weigh these things. Edited March 29, 2021 by lewelma 8 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) I think that there is a big difference between kids who follow their passions and just end up at the top, and kids who think that getting into an Ivy is their ticket to life and spend their lives grooming themselves to be the person they think admissions wants. The first is the outcome of personal interest; the second is what I don't like and am glad I was never a part of. Obviously, it is a sliding scale. And I have no idea where you draw the line. Here is another personal story this time about this sliding scale, and where my ds went from personal passion to focusing on elite admissions, and the ramifications of this change in approach and perspective. Deleted Edited March 29, 2021 by lewelma 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) Look, honestly, this conversation is making me exasperated and I’m going to bow out. As I said, I think this is a privileged perspective, but I don’t feel like discussing it anymore. Edited March 29, 2021 by Not_a_Number 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilaclady Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 4 hours ago, SDMomof3 said: This is a list that we were given a few years back, on where extracurricular rank Rank 10: *Division 1 athlete *IMO/IPHO/ICHO/IBO medals *Intel Science Talent Search Top 10 *Siemens National Winner *Intel ISEF Top 3 Grand Prize *Published in Nature, Science, or similarly rigorous journal *Carnegie Hall Soloist Rank 9: *Siemens Finalist *Intel ISEF Best in Category *MOP *Intel STS Finalist *NFL Nationals winner *Research Science Institute (RSI) Rank 8: *TASP *USPhO/USChO/USABO/USACO National Finalist *Siemens Semifinalists *Intel STS Semifinalist *Intel ISEF 1st – 4th place Category Award *Published in a respectable journal or publishing house *Starting a successful business *AMC Perfect Score *Presidential Scholar *Davidson Fellow *Presidential Scholar of the Arts *Scholastic Art & Writing Portfolio, Gold Award Rank 7: *Selective summer programs (EX: SSP, Clark Summer Program, NIH Research, MITES) *Having a patent *Intel ISEF special award *USAMO qualification *ARML Tiebreaker Round/Top Team *Scholastic Art & Writing National Silver or Gold Medal *NFL Nationals qualifier *Appearance on Jeopardy *USAMTS Gold Medal *MATHCOUNTS top 12 sprint/countdown round *State AP Scholar (note: as a junior or prior) Rank 6: *Columbia Scholastic Press Crown *USPhO/USChO/USABO/USACO Semifinalist *Intel ISEF Finalist *Science Olympiad National medal *USAMTS Silver *MATHCOUNTS Nationals *First Robotics National Championship *State Athletic Championship *Science Bowl/Ocean Science Bowl/NAQT winners Rank 5: *Columbia Scholastic Press Medalist (if Editor-in-Chief, 5; if Editor, 4; if other staff, 3) *Mock Trial State Champion (depends on state) *National Latin Convention 1st Places Academic Contests *All-Eastern/All-Regional music *National History Day winner *Congressional Award Gold Medalist *AIME qualification *Science Bowl national qualification *National AP Scholar (note: as a junior or prior) *Class President *President of a large, academic, serious club (EX: MUN, Mock Trial, Science Olympiad) Rank 4: *National Latin Exam perfect score (multiple years) *The majority of state-level awards *All-State music *Science Olympiad state medals (depending on which state) *National History Day *JETS TEAMS National Finalist or Regional winner *Model United Nations Best Delegate Gavel *1st Place State-level Debate *AMC 10/12 school winner *Congressional Award Silver Medalist *Eagle Scout *President of a smaller/less serious club *Student Council position Rank 3: *All-County music *Winning (1st–3rd place) at regional science fairs *1st Place Regional-level Debate *National Merit Scholar *Rensselaer Medalist *Leadership in an academic club (EX: Vice President, Treasurer) Rank 2: *Bank of America Awards *The majority of local awards *Essay Contests *State History Day *Membership in a club (that requires some work) Rank 1: *National Honor Society *Beta Club *School Departmental Awards (EX: math dept. award) *Book awards (EX: Harvard book award) *School Honor Roll *Key Club *CSF *Interact Club Rank 0: *Who’s Who *National Honor Roll *National Society of High School Scholars This is not a genuine list. Some kids made this up on college confidential. I won’t put much stock in this list. 9 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Semi-related: The documentary on Operation Varsity Blues is on Netflix. I haven't watched it yet because I am not sure if I need more hypertension in my life at present, but I heard that it was well done. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said: Look, honestly, this conversation is making me exasperated and I’m going to bow out. As I said, I think this is a privileged perspective, but I don’t feel like discussing it anymore. Sorry I've upset you. 😞 I tried to write you privately, but your message box is not receiving messages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDMomof3 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lilaclady said: This is not a genuine list. Some kids made this up on college confidential. I won’t put much stock in this list. The counselor showed us the list because she wanted us to have realistic expectations when dd was applying for college. My dd’s extracurriculars were unconventional and not listed. I think that because her extracurriculars were unconventional, it helped her get into the CS program at all the top UCs and private colleges, she applied to. So there are many factors that go into college admissions. Edited March 29, 2021 by SDMomof3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanDiegoMom Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 @lewelma I agree with what you are getting at, and I appreciate the reminder/perspective you always bring. I started following your and Quarks posts for math ideas, as I have had a precocious math kid. Due maybe to circumstances of recent years (lonely last couple of years of homeschooling, major move this past summer, ASD diagnosis) his all-in desire for math and really learning in general has decreased. It's made me anxious at times and I think of ways to rekindle his excitement. But I also try to remember that no matter what I provide in terms of classes or materials, if I don't see that spark of excitement in his eyes, then I just am not going to get-- I don't know -- that depth of intense interest that I am looking for. And I can't force it. I can strew, and we can have discussions and I can try to open up new avenues, but I also have to teach the kid in front of me rather than force him into a mold JUST BECAUSE he might be gifted. And I can really see it all falling apart if he is NOT the one driving the bus. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 30 minutes ago, lewelma said: Sorry I've upset you. 😞 I tried to write you privately, but your message box is not receiving messages. I'll clear it. It gets full. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) 21 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said: @lewelma I agree with what you are getting at, and I appreciate the reminder/perspective you always bring. I started following your and Quarks posts for math ideas, as I have had a precocious math kid. Due maybe to circumstances of recent years (lonely last couple of years of homeschooling, major move this past summer, ASD diagnosis) his all-in desire for math and really learning in general has decreased. It's made me anxious at times and I think of ways to rekindle his excitement. But I also try to remember that no matter what I provide in terms of classes or materials, if I don't see that spark of excitement in his eyes, then I just am not going to get-- I don't know -- that depth of intense interest that I am looking for. And I can't force it. I can strew, and we can have discussions and I can try to open up new avenues, but I also have to teach the kid in front of me rather than force him into a mold JUST BECAUSE he might be gifted. And I can really see it all falling apart if he is NOT the one driving the bus. For the record, I think I have one of the most customized programs on this board 😂. I spend a ton of time customizing what we do to meet what DD8 wants to do. And I've been doing the same thing for DD4, now that she wants to learn. Edited March 29, 2021 by Not_a_Number 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 10 hours ago, Not_a_Number said: Blech. Yeah, I see your point. What about AP tests? You can do AP tests without taking the classes, right? Would some lower level Olympiads or unofficial things do? Like, AMCs or F = ma or lower computing contests or anything like that? 😞 This assumes all kids are into contests. Anybody remembers quark’s boy? Brilliant but didn’t want anything to do with competitions. Competitions really attract one kind of a kid. It’s a very great kid, but not the only great kid in the room. Yes, APs can be taken without classes. One of my kids is into economics. I suspect by the time he is ready to take an actually exam (3 years down the line), it won’t really require much prep. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Roadrunner said: This assumes all kids are into contests. Anybody remembers quark’s boy? Brilliant but didn’t want anything to do with competitions. Competitions really attract one kind of a kid. It’s a very great kid, but not the only great kid in the room. I am sure that if someone is not used to taking tests, then competitions would seem unattractive, yes. But I don't think you need to be "attracted" by competitions to decide that prepping for one on your own time and then showing excellence in it is a good way to avoid jumping through even more hoops. Obviously, people can show excellence in all sorts of ways. That was just my brainstorming about how one could do it without taking boatloads of AP classes, which I had the impression took up a lot of output and time. I got the sense that Quark's boy didn't need any help with how to show that he was an outstanding candidate. But not everyone is so lucky. 1 minute ago, Roadrunner said: Yes, APs can be taken without classes. One of my kids is into economics. I suspect by the time he is ready to take an actually exam (3 years down the line), it won’t really require much prep. Of course, what if one is really not into tests? 😉 Then I suppose one won't take the AP tests, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Getting a patent is more about $$$ than anything else. It's a lengthy process that typically ends up costing a ton. So that's like maybe, generously, a quarter about a kid with a cool idea and three quarters about having cash on hand to fulfill your kid's whims. And that, my friends, sums up many of the items on that list. Not all, obviously, but many. A kid with a little time and determination and talent and a lot of parent cash. 9 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 16 minutes ago, Farrar said: And that, my friends, sums up many of the items on that list. Not all, obviously, but many. A kid with a little time and determination and talent and a lot of parent cash. Which ones take a lot of cash? I don't know all the items on that list, but the ones I do know don't require money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said: Which ones take a lot of cash? I don't know all the items on that list, but the ones I do know don't require money. Cash/a lab/a professor parent. It’s not ALL cash. So many ways to get there 🤣🤣 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, madteaparty said: Cash/a lab/a professor parent. It’s not ALL cash. So many ways to get there 🤣🤣 I don't have either, for the record. No cash, no lab, no professor parent. (Well, my dad is a physics professor. Of course, I saw him once a year. So yes genetic endowment, no to actual help.) This thread is veering into dismissing high achievement because it happens to check some boxes. I was both intensely ambitious about how well I'd do on contests and also genuinely loved the math. Those can coexist. Edited March 29, 2021 by Not_a_Number 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said: I don't have either, for the record. No cash, no lab, no professor parent. (Well, my dad is a physics professor. Of course, I saw him once a year. So yes genetic endowment, no to actual help.) This thread is veering into dismissing high achievement because it happens to check some boxes. I was both intensely ambitious about how well I'd do on contests and also genuinely loved the math. Those can coexist. I have no idea what this thread is doing, but it has provided endless amusement to me. Your post is a little, I walked to school and back 10 miles in the snow. Some people (raises hand) can’t work a microscope, nor do math beyond algebra and find it hilarious that we have to pretend high schoolers are doing research worthy of publishing in Nature. My daughter can be into math, and can be into science, but her dad had to take custody of the slime mold we are trying to grow one day in🤣 everyone starts from their very particular circumstances and then says “of course you all can do this, because I followed my kid’s interests while gathering daises and look what an amazing meadow we landed on” 🤣 Edited March 29, 2021 by madteaparty 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said: I am sure that if someone is not used to taking tests, then competitions would seem unattractive, yes. But I don't think you need to be "attracted" by competitions to decide that prepping for one on your own time and then showing excellence in it is a good way to avoid jumping through even more hoops. Obviously, people can show excellence in all sorts of ways. That was just my brainstorming about how one could do it without taking boatloads of AP classes, which I had the impression took up a lot of output and time. I got the sense that Quark's boy didn't need any help with how to show that he was an outstanding candidate. But not everyone is so lucky. Of course, what if one is really not into tests? 😉 Then I suppose one won't take the AP tests, right? Not so comparable I would say. My kids perform, a lot. Both detest competitions. It’s just a different beast. More we did, more they hated. So we stopped. They have (had prior to Covid) a very full performance schedule though. Loved it, excelled at it. . Edited March 29, 2021 by Roadrunner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 5 hours ago, 8filltheheart said: That list is from College Confidential. I went over there only once. It was awful. I knew there was info there that could be useful to me, but I just couldn't handle the rest of it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, madteaparty said: I have no idea what this thread is doing, but it has provided endless amusement to me. Your post is a little, I walked to school and back 10 miles in the snow. Some people (raises hand) can’t work a microscope, do math beyond algebra and find it hilarious that we have to pretend high schoolers are doing research worthy of publishing in Nature. My daughter can be into math, and can be into science, but her dad had to take custody of the slime mold we are trying to grow one day in🤣 everyone starts from their very particular circumstances and then says “of course you all can do this, because I followed my kid’s interests while gathering daises and look what an amazing meadow we landed on” 🤣 I didn't say everyone can do this. I said it's dismissive to say it all requires money. For lots of kids, it requires a mix of talent and really hard work. And frankly, I respect that mix. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Roadrunner said: Not so comparable I would say. My kids perform, a lot. Both detest competitions. It’s just a different beast. More we did, more they hated. So we stopped. They have (had prior to Covid) a very full performance schedule though. Loved it, excelled at it. AP tests I see as finals, honestly. I have a kid with test anxiety, a real one, the type that has very serious physical manifestation and is related to medical issues. He takes tests because there is really no way around those - finals for DE, AP, school finals. I mean we work through it. Competition takes a certain personality type. I always thought it was a matter of practice, but it’s not. Different things for different people. No, that's fair. I understand actual test anxiety. I wouldn't argue that kids like that should take more tests 🙂 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said: No, that's fair. I understand actual test anxiety. I wouldn't argue that kids like that should take more tests 🙂 Sadly, it’s real. Edited March 29, 2021 by Roadrunner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said: Which ones take a lot of cash? I don't know all the items on that list, but the ones I do know don't require money. I can't face the list again, but I can tell you from our experience that these high-achieving activities have been very expensive: music lessons - 15 years at $100/hour adds up to a hell of a lot of money Math camps/classes/trips -- camps were $2K each year, AoPS classes cost us probably 5K over 5 years (he did WOOT 3 times which is expensive), and we actually had to help fund ds to travel to the IMO at 2K for each of the 3 trips. As for kids he knows with expensive achievements: National tennis champion National robotics champion Scientific papers (this requires connections more than $$; however, my ds was able to volunteer to work in a lab that got him on a paper, and he could only volunteer because he didn't have to work for money that summer.) Kid who won national new young writers award hired a mentor/editor that helped him for 2 years. This in addition to that fact that most kids who get into ivy's seem to be paying for a service that helps them prepare their application to be just so. Even here in NZ there is an agency that you pay $5k for them to manage you through the process, help you hire tutors for the SAT (additional cost), help you set up a business so that you can put it on your application, etc. I do think it is a rich mans game unfortunately. 😞 6 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 @Roadrunner -- I won't quote 🙂 . There are actually math things on that list that aren't timed, for the record. DH participated in some in high school, and he wasn't a big contest kid 🙂 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 I will also say, however, that there is a place where my son can donate some of his meal vouchers to kids who are food insecure at MIT. Yes, there are kids at MIT who are hungry. 😞 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Just now, Not_a_Number said: @Roadrunner -- I won't quote 🙂 . There are actually math things on that list that aren't timed, for the record. DH participated in some in high school, and he wasn't a big contest kid 🙂 . Yes, the one he did wasn’t timed. It took him about a week to write out 7 or 8 pages of exam notes. He still remembers how wonderful that test was. That’s the sort of thing that he enjoys, but even the mention of AMC is not allowed here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, lewelma said: I can't face the list again, but I can tell you from our experience that these high-achieving activities have been very expensive: music lessons - 15 years at $100/hour adds up to a hell of a lot of money Math camps/classes/trips -- camps were $2K each year, AoPS classes cost us probably 5K over 5 years (he did WOOT 3 times which is expensive), and we actually had to help fund ds to travel to the IMO at 2K for each of the 3 trips. As for kids he knows with expensive achievements: National tennis champion National robotics champion Scientific papers (this requires connections more than $$; however, my ds was able to volunteer to work in a lab that got him on a paper, and he could only volunteer because he didn't have to work for money that summer.) Kid who won national new young writers award hired a mentor/editor that helped him for 2 years. This in addition to that fact that most kids who get into ivy's seem to be paying for a service that helps them prepare their application to be just so. Even here in NZ there is an agency that you pay $5k for them to manage you through the process, help you hire tutors for the SAT (additional cost), help you set up a business so that you can put it on your application, etc. I do think it is a rich mans game unfortunately. 😞 If your point is that money will buy you classes and tutoring, you're right, it will. But you don't NEED to have classes and tutoring to do well at this stuff. It's just easier that way. But you can also bust your rear and do well, too. Look, you know what's really a rich man's game? When instead of accomplishments, it becomes about who you know. You get rid of tests and lists like this, and the people who go to Harvard will be the good ol' boys club. There's no WAY to break through those ranks if achievements don't count. DH has some hair-raising stories about what kinds of "recommendations" he'd have gotten from the teachers at his school, if he didn't have achievements to show them. And yes, it mattered that he was a Jew and not "old Boston." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said: But you don't NEED to have classes and tutoring to do well at this stuff. I think you are the exception that proves the rule. 🙂 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said: When instead of accomplishments, it becomes about who you know. Yes. DS is very glad that MIT has no legacy admissions. It allows for a much more diverse body of students. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said: If your point is that money will buy you classes and tutoring, you're right, it will. But you don't NEED to have classes and tutoring to do well at this stuff. It's just easier that way. But you can also bust your rear and do well, too. Look, you know what's really a rich man's game? When instead of accomplishments, it becomes about who you know. You get rid of tests and lists like this, and the people who go to Harvard will be the good ol' boys club. There's no WAY to break through those ranks if achievements don't count. DH has some hair-raising stories about what kinds of "recommendations" he'd have gotten from the teachers at his school, if he didn't have achievements to show them. And yes, it mattered that he was a Jew and not "old Boston." Yes, but realistically that list is for top 1% of kids. Now how does the top 25% show achievement? That’s basically why kids take on AP classes and exams. They might not have an IQ for what is on that list or parental know how and $$$ for classes and tutoring. I think most kids used SAT subject tests and APs to show they were hard working academically oriented kids. I respect that. I always respect hard work even if it doesn’t lead to Carnegie Hall. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, lewelma said: I think you are the exception that proves the rule. 🙂 No, I'm not. The point is that whenever there are paths around the "money and privilege" method of getting into schools, people will use their money and privilege to co-opt them, too. Of course they will. So people will pay for expensive tutors and use lab equipment and use connections and they'll do their darndest to get their kid on lists like this. But hard work can still get you on lists like this. Whereas if you get rid of them, what's left? All that's left is money and privilege, that's what. We'll all see what happens now that they are getting rid of tests left and right because they are "biased." You know what's really biased? Recommendation letters and portfolio evaluations. We'll see how people grapple with that fact in a few decades, and I'll be watching. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDMomof3 Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, Roadrunner said: Yes, the one he did wasn’t timed. It took him about a week to write out 7 or 8 pages of exam notes. He still remembers how wonderful that test was. That’s the sort of thing that he enjoys, but even the mention of AMC is not allowed here. Maybe something like USAMTS would interest him. The contest is a month long. My ds has been looking at the problems and some are very interesting. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Roadrunner said: Yes, but realistically that list is for top 1% of kids. No, it isn't. Rank 10 on that list maybe, but Rank 5 sure isn't. All that lists shows you is how you can show achievement via extracurriculars. 1 minute ago, Roadrunner said: Now how does the top 25% show achievement? That’s basically why kids take on AP classes and exams. They might not have an IQ for what is on that list or parental know how and $$$ for classes and tutoring. I think most kids used SAT subject tests and APs to show they were hard working academically oriented kids. I respect that. I always respect hard work even if it doesn’t lead to Carnegie Hall. Right, and the point is that if you focus more narrowly, you can maybe have a bit more freedom than taking a lot of APs. Maybe not in California, which requires them for the state schools, but in lots of places. And that list shows you what kind of things you might earn along the way to show for your more narrow focus. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said: Maybe something like USAMTS would interest him. The contest is a month long. My ds has been looking at the problems and some are very interesting. Yep. That's the one DH did in high school. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 OK, I think I'm out 🙂 . I gotta make worksheets for my Zoom class kids, and this is distracting me. Don't quote me or tag me please, or I'll be sucked right back in. Nice chatting with you all. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) @Not_a_Number Not being dismissive, but being creative and designing your own courses for 8 and 4 yr olds is very low parental pressure. It is not relatable to parents with teens who are stressed by the system. To you the conversation is purely hypothetical. The stress on the parental homeschool side is real when you are facing that the responsibility of your kids' future is under your guidance when they are in high school. If you still live in NY when your kids are in high school, you will have hoops you will face if your student wants to attend a NY school. It does take the willingness to go, ok, doors shut, what ones are left open. @RoadrunnerI think it was a strong dislike of the math contest focus for strong math kids that turned ds toward physics over math. He hated them. He is very much a noncompetitive kid. His sr yr we went to a high school physics competition that offered a large scholarship. He didnt do any prep for it. I told him just to trust himself and what he knew. He apologized for the $$ spent on the trip all the way there bc he didnt think we should make the trip. We got there the teams were there with their coaches and he was there with me, his mom who doesnt know anything about physics. It was just a son and mom day. That was how we approached it. (He won 1st place....but it was also the last competition he ever wanted to do.) Edited March 29, 2021 by 8filltheheart 17 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said: @Not_a_Number Not being dismissive, but being creative and designing your own courses for a 8 and 4 yr olds is very low parental pressure. It is not relatable to parents with teens who are stressed by the system. To you the conversation is purely hypothetical. The stress on the parental homeschool side is real when you are facing that the responsibility of your kids' future is under your guidance when they are in high school. If you still live in NY when your kids are in high school, you will have hoops you will face if your student wants to attend a NY school. It does take the willingness to go, ok, doors shut, what ones are left open. I'm sure it DOES feel more hypothetical to me, since my kids are so little. You're right about that. However, from my personal perspective, knowing that there are ways to excel in a narrow area of passion and yet still get into schools is more comforting than thinking that all measures of excellence are out of reach and therefore I have to get outside validation via APs or DE classes. And I think that list clumsily gets at that fact. Yes, it doesn't list every single possible way someone could excel, but a lot of those achievements are narrow ones that could be pursued in an area of passion. But I can see that's not how people are reading that list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoes+Ships+SealingWax Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 6 hours ago, lewelma said: I hate ranking kids! I hate it! I would never want to give a list like that to a child to look at. Unfortunately, the US is all about that pressure. My high school (which wasn’t even competitive - a typical public high school) publicly posted the GPAs of every single student every 6wks - to the 6th decimal point. It turned a few kids really nasty & vindictive. Made the perfectionistic kids downright neurotic. Many gave up their passions because those classes (athletics, the arts, computer sciences) were ranked on a 4.0 scale as opposed to the 5.0 or 6.0 scale of honors & AP cores. I imagine a huge number of lower-ranking students were convinced that there was no use even trying. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porridge Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said: Which ones take a lot of cash? I don't know all the items on that list, but the ones I do know don't require money. Patents require money, as far as I know. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not_a_Number Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 Just now, WTM said: Patents require money, as far as I know. Right, that's the one that was mentioned. But a lot of those things don't, I believe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.