What is the point of the Ivies?

[Clemsondana]

27 minutes ago, daijobu said:

This is something I hear time and again and it really strikes me.  I have no idea what your ethnic background is or if you are an immigrant.  But I find that White people who are at least a few generations in the US are completely clueless about most academic opportunities.  In contrast, the recent immigrants know more about how US academics works before they even arrive in the US. They use online social networks in languages other than English to share their information.  I wanted to join such a list, until I found out the parents there communicate in Mandarin.

I get new immigrant parents asking me weirdly specific questions about MathCounts and AMC.  My White parents are asking me questions like "What is MathCounts?"    

I had involved parents, as did my husband.  But, I think that they had the reasonable expectation that, since we spent 7 hrs/day at school, it would tell us what we needed to do for academic success.  My parents spent years as volunteers and PTA president, but there wasn't much discussion of these sorts of academic competitions.  My parents have 2-year business and secretarial degrees.  One of my grandmothers worked in an asbestos mill after she moved to the city for better opportunities.  I'm a first generation 4-year college grad.  But, my dad is one of 5, all of whom have done well for themselves.  They got what they needed from high school - only the youngest went straight to college, although one other did eventually become a dentist after a circuitous route through college.  The point is that they did fine starting with not a lot and they got us into the best public schools available to them.  They figured we'd be set.  And, we did fine.  Husband's story is similar.  Honestly, the 'let the chips fall' approach was fine, and having to figure things out as we went in college and grad school probably cost us some opportunities but also gave us confidence.  But, our kids will be in a completely different situation.  We know so much more and are actually talking about how it will be harder to let them figure things out for themselves because we, unlike our parents, are likely to feel like we know better.  

[SeaConquest]

32 minutes ago, daijobu said:

This is something I hear time and again and it really strikes me.  I have no idea what your ethnic background is or if you are an immigrant.  But I find that White people who are at least a few generations in the US are completely clueless about most academic opportunities.  In contrast, the recent immigrants know more about how US academics works before they even arrive in the US. They use online social networks in languages other than English to share their information.  I wanted to join such a list, until I found out the parents there communicate in Mandarin.

I get new immigrant parents asking me weirdly specific questions about MathCounts and AMC.  My White parents are asking me questions like "What is MathCounts?"    

Just look at the ethnic makeup of most academic camps, contests, and afterschool academic enrichment classes. The composition is striking. White people, as a general rule, are either clueless or entirely apathetic about these academic opportunities. 

[SDMomof3]

20 minutes ago, daijobu said:

This may be true, but participating in a math contest is about more than showing achievement.  It's about developing skills that can be crucial to success in college.  I only ever made it to AIME my senior year in high school, just early enough to include on my applications.  Yes, the AIME helped my application, but learning to solve hard math problems helped me succeed in college.  

True, the skills that me girls gain from participating in math and science contest have helped them greatly in college and help open doors to research opportunities as well. 
I think that I was referring to kids like some of my PS dd’s classmates who would participate in 10+ activities so the would have lots of things to put on college apps. 

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, Hoggirl said:

Yes, I agree that cohesiveness in one’s application is extremely important. 

 

My ds worked with the prompts to build a cohesive and honest picture of himself. Here are 2 of his 5 MIT essays to show how he interwove the ideas. 

deleted

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by lewelma

[SDMomof3]

44 minutes ago, daijobu said:

This is something I hear time and again and it really strikes me.  I have no idea what your ethnic background is or if you are an immigrant.  But I find that White people who are at least a few generations in the US are completely clueless about most academic opportunities.  In contrast, the recent immigrants know more about how US academics works before they even arrive in the US. They use online social networks in languages other than English to share their information.  I wanted to join such a list, until I found out the parents there communicate in Mandarin.

I get new immigrant parents asking me weirdly specific questions about MathCounts and AMC.  My White parents are asking me questions like "What is MathCounts?"    

I think it hard for parents who went through the college admissions process themselves 20-30 years ago to understand how hard it is now. My Asian friends who have been here for several generations are completely clueless or vaguely know about these competitions. They think that as long as they are raising well rounded kids who play a sport, an instrument, and have good grades the kids are set. 

[wendyroo]

6 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm confused. Are you saying you worked while in school and paid $100000 to attend MIT 20 yrs ago? I am not following.

I'm not sure which part you are confused about.

Tuition when I went to MIT was between 25 and 30K. Plus room and board, food, books, travel, fees. It got expensive fast. MIT met our need, but our need was deemed quite low.

My parents contributed about 5K a year. I did work study during the year which earned about 5K. I also tutored and babysat during the school year which allowed me to earn about another 5K...especially in the later years when I was charging $20 an hour and still turning away tutoring jobs.

The one huge advantage I had was earning power. Since my high school had not offered many academic opportunities, I did the next best thing and threw myself into the machine shop. I had all sorts of tool and die experience plus CAD, welding and even a bit of forging. My junior year I competed nationally, and placed quite high in machine tool technology.

So I had the skills to work full time in a CAD manufacturing job over the summers through high school and college making significantly more than minimum wage. Plus during high school I was also working several jobs during the school year...I was bored out of my skull in school and desperate to keep myself busy and financially prepare myself to move on to bigger and better things as soon as I graduated.

By the time I graduated high school I had 25K saved...looking back, the downside to this was how it impacted our family contribution. But it did mean that as long as I kept working I could mostly stay on top of the bills. I held on for the first two and a half years without taking any loans, then modest loans to see me through the last 1.5 years, and then one more summer of work and a TA job to get me through my Masters. I came out with about 12K in loans.

So, no, clearly I did not just work while in school and earn $100,000. Twenty of that my parents paid; 12 I took in loans. The rest I paid with 8 summers and 8 school years' worth of work.

[lewelma]

In contrast to wendyroo's story, when I was in Reno as a grad student in the 90s, I actually went to an informational session for a brothel. (yes, I am probably the only person you know who has). Coming from a very religious southern family, I couldn't resist the add "no experience necessary, will train." I was very curious as to what they would say, and what I found was very eye opening to me. Two young women were running the session and they were students at Texas A&M. They were very enthusiastic that they could work for the summer at the Brothel and this would pay off their entire year of tuition, room, and board.  They had done if for all 4 years, leaving them with no debt.

Edited March 30, 2021 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

@wendyroo  That is really impressive!  Not many teens have that kind of earning power.  Most teens face making minimum wage.

[SeaConquest]

18 minutes ago, lewelma said:

In contrast to wendyroo's story, when I was in Reno as a grad student in the 90s, I actually went to an informational session for a brothel. (yes, I am probably the only person you know who has). Coming from a very religious southern family, I couldn't resist the add "no experience necessary, will train." I was very curious as to what they would say, and what I found was very eye opening to me. Two young women were running the session and they were students at Texas A&M. They were very enthusiastic that they could work for the summer at the Brothel and this would pay off their entire year of tuition, room, and board.  They had done if for all 4 years, leaving them with no debt.

I will see your brothel story and raise you my BFF from law school and I getting called into the managing partners' offices of our respective law firms within an hour of this story hitting the Interwebz. https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2004/09/24/fellow-alumni-speak-up-for-law-grad-hounded-by-feds/ We were both in deep caca for defending a girl in the law school class in front of us who was busted by the feds for tax evasion (of course) for being a high-class call girl to pay off her student loans.  

ETA: She was pulling in over 1K per hour -- more than a lot of Silicon Valley and NYC BIGLAW partners!

Edited March 30, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Roadrunner]

This thread has gone to crazy places, but I really didn’t think we would arrive in a brothel. ☺️🤣

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

I didn’t attend a prestigious school, but I did also work several jobs throughout college & emerged with little debt (around $10k).

My spouse, on the other hand, had always been told that it would be “taken care of.” It was decidedly not. Fortunately the risk paid off, but six-figure debt was quite the mountain to climb straight out of school. Many of his peers have not shared our good fortune & are still struggling a decade later. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[SDMomof3]

My DH’s friend paid for college by hacking into the college’s computer system. Instead of expelling him and turning him over to the authorities, they hired him to hack into other parts of their computer system. 

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

In contrast to wendyroo's story, when I was in Reno as a grad student in the 90s, I actually went to an informational session for a brothel. (yes, I am probably the only person you know who has). Coming from a very religious southern family, I couldn't resist the add "no experience necessary, will train." I was very curious as to what they would say, and what I found was very eye opening to me. Two young women were running the session and they were students at Texas A&M. They were very enthusiastic that they could work for the summer at the Brothel and this would pay off their entire year of tuition, room, and board.  They had done if for all 4 years, leaving them with no debt.

I worked at a 24 hour child care center while in college and had one child who’s mom was a stripper. And a law student. 
 

 

well...that’s one way to avoid student loans... I’m betting she made a lot more than I did!!!

[teachermom2834]

I sure hope @MamaSproutfeels she got her original question answered!  
 

 

[wendyroo]

50 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

@wendyroo  That is really impressive!  Not many teens have that kind of earning power.  Most teens face making minimum wage.

My high school really was not academically oriented - it was all about sports and vocational skills. By ninth grade I was quickly running out of academic classes to take, so my counselor suggested metal shop. I was all in when I learned I would get to weld. 

By junior year, Spanish was the only academic class left for me to take. So in the mornings I spent an hour in Spanish and 3 hours in the metal shop - one in a class of my peers, one as forewoman of a less experienced class and one working on independent CAD projects. 

In the afternoons I took DE classes and worked at a garage welding and repairing tractors and learning more mechanical skills. 

It was a mix of luck and good planning. I was so far ahead in academics that I had a lot of hours to devote to learning a trade. That much metal shop on its own would have gotten me a good job, but the teacher quickly took stock of my academic and programming skills and started me working on CAD designs which further increased my earning potential. I was also heavily bullied so had no social life and was determined to get out of my podunk town, which meant I didn’t mind devoting large amounts of my time to working. 

It is not the high school life I would choose for my kids, but it served me well.

[MamaSprout]

6 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

I sure hope @MamaSproutfeels she got her original question answered!  
 

 

I left on page 2, lol. Page 8 looks kind of fun, though.

[Roadrunner]

13 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Just look at the ethnic makeup of most academic camps, contests, and afterschool academic enrichment classes. The composition is striking. White people, as a general rule, are either clueless or entirely apathetic about these academic opportunities. 

There are significant cultural differences how different groups approach education. We deeply value learning, but you won’t find us anywhere near these groups. Having seen what goes on in Bay Area, I will take apathetic parents over the alternative. Although I don’t think apathetic is a right word. We might value spending summers hanging out by the river, hiking, reading books, writing diaries, instead of sitting in a classroom with kids who have spent every waking day of the year in before and after schools tutoring programs hours every day, but that doesn’t mean we don’t value learning. We just don’t value that sort of approach to learning. We have acquaintances (a pediatrician) who left the state with her 4 kids after seeing firsthand the impact that sort of approach to learning has on the health of children. 

[8filltheheart]

I don't think the mental health of teens and young adults and the realities of burnout are given a high enough priority.  I have met teens who have been pushed to the max who have been apathetic towards things as an adult.  😞  There is so much more to life than crossing some threshold and achieving some prized goal that then leaves them miserable.

I think that might be a cultural difference that gets missed.  I know some very intelligent, hardworking people who are far more interested in being out in their boats fishing or off camping/hunting/hiking vs. living a life with a higher "esteemed"  job that consumes more of their time and with less flexibility.  It isn't dismissive of education.  It is a different lifestyle with different objectives.  (Most of them own their own small businesses like roofing, carpentry, plumbing, HVAC.....quite successful but they set their own hrs and do their own thing.)

[Farrar]

In my experience, a lot of white affluent families are keyed into particular academic achievements that meant more a generation ago. Things like student council and athletics and National Honor Society. I mean, niche athletics are really dominated by these families because they think it's a way to get into colleges. They are less interested in competitive math or things like that. They also nickel and dime these things big time so the money is all a bit odd. And can get really uncomfortable if they perceive that an academic club is not a white majority space. So then they keep their kids out and think "that's not for us." Sigh.

[Farrar]

I think part of this is also about white affluent families having more trouble with the disconnect between admissions and costs when we were kids vs. now. I knew many kids who went to really prestigious schools when I was in high school/college - I had many friends at Harvard, Cornell, Duke, etc. with parents paying most of the way. I was a giant slouch for having gone to Mount Holyoke, and on massive need based scholarship, lol. Now these folks are successful adults and some of them have trouble accepting that even though their kid has done dramatically more than them - and has the crumbling mental health to prove it! - that they simply cannot walk right into Duke or Stanford or whatever. It's just... really hard for them to accept. 

[Roadrunner]

Why do we always talk about white in the context of affluence? 
I am surrounded by middle class white population (and not just white) and would say people care about education but also believe in downtime. While sports are popular, there are played mostly by athletic kids, and there are a ton of other groups - music, theatre, dance... I think people value opportunities outside of academics for what they are (not just a tool to get to college). We also live in a very outdoorsy rural area, so you see kids enjoy that. My kids take our dog for hours to the river  daily. I would never trade that in for an afterschool program and it’s not because I don’t value learning. It’s because I equally value other things.
This grouping of whites (always privileged) and everybody else is not accurate. In fact in Bay Area most affluent aren’t white at all. 

[8filltheheart]

I agree @Farrar.  I see the same with a few exceptions.   Honestly, we would probably be there if it weren't for these forums and families like Kathy's who shared their knowledge.

FWIW, I looked up a picture to confirm my memomy.  When ds was on the stage receiving his physics award, he was the only white person on the stage.   The rest were Asian, and there was only 1 girl, the rest were boys. (That fits the stereotype that physics depts are mostly male.)

[Farrar]

I qualified white with affluent in large part because I wasn't referring to all affluent or all white folks. Up above, there was some good discussion of white working class families and priorities as also being really different from aiming toward competitive ivy style educations.

[8filltheheart]

Well, I didn't use the word white.  I used referred to "esteemed" professions. We live in a very mixed neigborhood, and there are a lot of boats and campers.  🙂 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

58 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't think the mental health of teens and young adults and the realities of burnout are given a high enough priority.  I have met teens who have been pushed to the max who have been apathetic towards things as an adult.  😞  There is so much more to life than crossing some threshold and achieving some prized goal that then leaves them miserable.

I think that might be a cultural difference that gets missed.  I know some very intelligent, hardworking people who are far more interested in being out in their boats fishing or off camping/hunting/hiking vs. living a life with a higher "esteemed"  job that consumes more of their time and with less flexibility.  It isn't dismissive of education.  It is a different lifestyle with different objectives.  (Most of them own their own small businesses like roofing, carpentry, plumbing, HVAC.....quite successful but they set their own hrs and do their own thing.)

I both agree & acknowledge the privilege inherent in being able to agree. My time overseas gave a great deal of context to that sort of relentless achievement.

Mothers leaving their children with extended family in their home country for the luxury of being treated like a pile of dung another family had stepped in (while rearing their children in the parents’ absence, no less) so that perhaps one day they could return & purchase a family property & allow their children to not have to do the same. 

Grandmothers & grandfathers working multiple physical, menial jobs to keep themselves off the street because pay is so low & the retirement system is a joke.

Three (sometimes more) generations piled together in a 200 or 300sqft government housing apartment - if they were lucky. The unlucky families who couldn’t make it past the 10+ year waiting lists for an apartment were in 100sqft split flats or 50sqft cage homes. 

Entire families pooling every single resource to give just one person a shot - one clean uniform, one admission to a selective school (after making it through a cutthroat entrance interview), one round of tests that would determine their chances for university. A number of these kids flung themselves out of 20+ story windows when exam results came out, but those who “made it” changed their entire family’s trajectory for generations - possibly forever. Talk about throwing eggs at a wall. 

I knew these sorts of things happened, of course. It’s different when you see it firsthand. Different still, by magnitudes I’m sure, when you experience it. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

When ds was on the stage receiving his physics award, he was the only white person on the stage.   The rest were Asian, and there was only 1 girl, the rest were boys. (That fits the stereotype that physics depts are mostly male.)

My ds was one of between 1 and 3 white kids at all five of his math camps, out of a total of 30. Girls numbered either 2 or 4 all five years (they seemed only take even numbers). So this is true in NZ too.

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

they simply cannot walk right into Duke or Stanford or whatever. It's just... really hard for them to accept. 

I think this is where the legacy component is so important and so distorting. We would have been very surprised if my ds had not gotten into Duke as his legacy includes: a mom, a dad, 4 aunts, 1 uncle, 3 cousins, 2 grandparents, and his great grandfather was an Iron Duke (meaning large contributor). And I'm sure if we were $$ giving types, if he had not gotten in, we would have been both deeply mad and shocked. I'm absolutely sure it would have impacted our giving. The universities need these gifts (or say they do), which is why legacy continues. 

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Honestly, we would probably be there if it weren't for these forums and families like Kathy's who shared their knowledge.

Yes! Thanks to Kathy! She was a godsend when we needed one. 

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't think the mental health of teens and young adults and the realities of burnout are given a high enough priority.  

I work with a lot of teens who I get to know over 3-4 years. There is a LOT of trouble going on in today's teen world. The kids I work with are not top-academic types, but even they are deeply injured by the ranking associated with grades and the implication of its direct correlation to self worth. We are actually zoned for the best school in the country as ranked by the scholarship exams. It is public so free to us, but has beat out every single private school in the country. It is only 5 blocks from my house. I tutor a lot of these kids, and I would never send a child there even though it is so convenient and by all measures an Excellent school. Never. They drive their kids through overt competition celebrated by the school, and it is damaging, really damaging to a lot of kids. I don't care that the athletics is better than I can provide, that they have some amazing teachers, that they get to go on cool academic and recreational trips, that they will meet the movers and shakers of their generation, or that they would have a way better shot at scholarships to NZ universities. I don't care at all. I would NEVER send a kid there. And I am sure it pales in comparison to what is going on in some schools in the Bay Area.

[Farrar]

18 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I think this is where the legacy component is so important and so distorting. We would have been very surprised if my ds had not gotten into Duke as his legacy includes: a mom, a dad, 4 aunts, 1 uncle, 3 cousins, 2 grandparents, and his great grandfather was an Iron Duke (meaning large contributor). And I'm sure if we were $$ giving types, if he had not gotten in, we would have been both deeply mad and shocked. I'm absolutely sure it would have impacted our giving. The universities need these gifts (or say they do), which is why legacy continues. 

Yes... but this is also decreasing in importance. I know of a number of legacy rejections this year. It's become much more about money and direct connections than simple "legacy." The money is now the key part, not just the legacy, which is even more frustrating for... everyone, honestly.

[stripe]

I think immigrant parents talk to each other more. And they spend a lot of time talking about their kids. They assume others can offer good ideas, and they can offer good ideas to others. I have met white American parents like this, but it’s not necessarily the norm. Tends to be certain aspirational parents from lower middle income levels who want a better life for their kids — giving them something in common with immigrants. Some of these parents may come off as competitive, but underneath it is the idea that our kids CAN make it, and we can figure out ways to improve their chances. We’re in this together. Americans don’t tend to want to receive advice on any topic (vaccines, masks, exercise, you name it) because they’ve got it all figured out. They also want to give kids their freedom and so their kids are supposed to figure it all out. This has been my experience, anyway. 

[Sneezyone]

18 hours ago, lewelma said:

In contrast to wendyroo's story, when I was in Reno as a grad student in the 90s, I actually went to an informational session for a brothel. (yes, I am probably the only person you know who has). Coming from a very religious southern family, I couldn't resist the add "no experience necessary, will train." I was very curious as to what they would say, and what I found was very eye opening to me. Two young women were running the session and they were students at Texas A&M. They were very enthusiastic that they could work for the summer at the Brothel and this would pay off their entire year of tuition, room, and board.  They had done if for all 4 years, leaving them with no debt.

Aaaaand this is why I couldn’t be bribed to attend there no matter how much scholarship money they offered. Student reps from the honors college came to pick up their ‘nerdlings’, attempted to teach me to country line dance (Hello, I’m an R&B, hip hop fan) and treated me to my first, ever, live showing of the Rocky Horror Picture show. I received pitying glances from every other black student I made eye contact with on campus. I hope students can actually visit schools again soon. Virtual visits don’t do much to help you get a sense of these cultural clashes.

[madteaparty]

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

Yes... but this is also decreasing in importance. I know of a number of legacy rejections this year. It's become much more about money and direct connections than simple "legacy." The money is now the key part, not just the legacy, which is even more frustrating for... everyone, honestly.

They should just sell seats. So the price is transparent and it would free up seats for the merit kids. I mean, essentially it’s what’s happening, but I realize transparency is not in the school’s interest. Edit: sell seats to the big donors and put everyone qualified in a true lottery. So we can be spared the endless speculation as to why their kid had the special sauce. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by madteaparty

[lewelma]

Interesting NYT 2017 article linked today on my facebook feed, on how wealthy/poor students are distributed among the Universities, and which universities have the most and the least of the top 1% as percent of student body. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html?fbclid=IwAR0s-ygO__dmncqcUHxYV0fSQGqowBH4AkkY_rnyrHcoJTSlfpGaw_pMuV4

[rzberrymom]

4 hours ago, madteaparty said:

They should just sell seats. So the price is transparent and it would free up seats for the merit kids. I mean, essentially it’s what’s happening, but I realize transparency is not in the school’s interest. Edit: sell seats to the big donors and put everyone qualified in a true lottery. So we can be spared the endless speculation as to why their kid had the special sauce. 

Aren’t there universities that do this? I can’t remember what the term is, but basically, if you’re willing to pay the full price and are a good student, you’re very very likely in. A friend got her son into Carleton this way, after he was rejected everywhere else. (I’ll probably think of the term in the middle of the night—there was a nice long list of schools like this)

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

21 minutes ago, rzberrymom said:

Aren’t there universities that do this? I can’t remember what the term is, but basically, if you’re willing to pay the full price and are a good student, you’re very very likely in. A friend got her son into Carleton this way, after he was rejected everywhere else. (I’ll probably think of the term in the middle of the night—there was a nice long list of schools like this)

I’ve seen these described as “need conscious / need aware” (as opposed to “need blind”).

[rzberrymom]

24 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

I’ve seen these described as “need conscious / need aware” (as opposed to “need blind”).

Thanks! This is the article I remember reading about buying a seat:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/your-money/college-admissions-wealth.html

[stripe]

This is also the appeal of international and out of state students: they too pay higher tuition.

[SoCal_Bear]

@Shoes+Ships+SealingWax I totally hear you on your point about the level of stress being magnitudes higher. It's competitive here, but it's still nowhere near what it is in the countries I am thinking about. It's literally do or die. There are so many ways in the US that you can achieve success through other paths. Nothing is ever truly a closed path forever here. There are no alternative paths if you don't make the cut on that one exam.
 

Edited March 31, 2021 by calbear

[Eos]

16 hours ago, lewelma said:

 that they will meet the movers and shakers of their generation

This is one of the points of an Ivy.

I think this generation of kids is in the middle of an hour-glass shaped phenomenon: earlier generations of (mostly White) kids experienced a wider funnel to college because of things like institutional racism keeping the applicant pool smaller, well-paid union jobs and functioning unions which allowed a better standard of living than today's service jobs for non-college graduates, fewer women in the work force so less need for higher education, less focus on consumerism via social media-based online tracking, etc.  Now unions are demonized and have lost much of their former power while institutional racism is alive and well and manifests itself in college admissions as a variety of barriers to programs, funding, and less inherited wealth and social capital accumulation. More women than men are applying to and attending college, and the future of all work is in turmoil as machine learning, mechanization, and financial engineering push the economy in a new direction. 

The very real anxiety produced by this turmoil that is beyond any of our individual abilities to control or end has generated a flood of college applications and created this tiny isthmus through which many many more kids are trying desperately to pass.  My guess is that in the future when the new economy has shaken itself out a bit that online college ("training") will open the other end of the funnel, and the majority of young people will attend online.  But movers and shakers still move and shake in person.  Inherited wealth still requires meeting (and moving and shaking with!) a spouse, and that the traditional brick and mortar schools will continue to be places where the moneyed classes meet each other. Prediction: Online options will flourish, in-person college will become even more exclusive, and the Ivies will start a widely followed trend of full time, on-line college to capture the emerging market's anxiety.  This is already happening, I'm just predicting it will become the norm. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

11 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

I’ve seen these described as “need conscious / need aware” (as opposed to “need blind”).

 

11 hours ago, rzberrymom said:

Aren’t there universities that do this? I can’t remember what the term is, but basically, if you’re willing to pay the full price and are a good student, you’re very very likely in. A friend got her son into Carleton this way, after he was rejected everywhere else. (I’ll probably think of the term in the middle of the night—there was a nice long list of schools like this)

 

10 hours ago, stripe said:

This is also the appeal of international and out of state students: they too pay higher tuition.

There are relatively few colleges that are need blind. Fewer that meet all demonstrated need. 

Most colleges depend on tuition as revenue in order to meet annual operating expenses. A part of shaping the class during admissions is considering how much need based aid some students would need in order to afford to enroll and how much non-need based aid other students would need to receive in order to choose to enroll. 

Most colleges are not for profit entities, but they still have balance sheets they cannot ignore. 

Jeff Selingo has a section about this in Who Gets In and Why. This is a LinkedIn article he wrote on the same topic. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-colleges-like-airlines-jeff-selingo

He also did a Wall Street Journal essay on the same topic. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-secrets-of-elite-college-admissions-11598626784

 

[bibiche]

2 hours ago, Harpymom said:

 Prediction: Online options will flourish, in-person college will become even more exclusive, and the Ivies will start a widely followed trend of full time, on-line college to capture the emerging market's anxiety.  This is already happening, I'm just predicting it will become the norm. 

I agree with this, but with the clarification that any online branch of an Ivy will in no way be the same as the IRL school. There is no way they will taint the value of a «real» diploma with an association to an online degree. I think that if they go this route the two schools will be very much distinguished one from the other and that the online degree will not hold nearly the cache of the authentic Ivy experience. You can see this already with Harvard and it’s Extension School. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by bibiche

[8filltheheart]

I dont believe that college will end up primarily online. I think the weaknesses of online learning have been highlighted.  Lack f interactive classrooms, lack of in person labs, problems with online testing, etc are all suboptimal. They make them work, but no, they are not directly equivalent.

[rzberrymom]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

I dont believe that college will end up primarily online. I think the weaknesses of online learning have been highlighted.  Lack f interactive classrooms, lack of in person labs, problems with online testing, etc are all suboptimal. They make them work, but no, they are not directly equivalent.

I agree. My husband is a professor at a STEM-focused university, and yesterday the president of the university pressured them tremendously to all go back to teaching in-person classes in the fall. The kids hated this experiment. They want to see the professor, ask questions in real time and in person, they hate pre-recorded segments of the class, they hated on-line tests, etc.

 

It was the exact opposite of what we expected. We’ve been thinking this would be the beginning of the end—why would the university need so many professors when they can just use pre-recorded lectures over and over and over. But, the kids revolted and don’t seem to want this remote future.

Edited March 31, 2021 by rzberrymom

[Eos]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

I dont believe that college will end up primarily online. I think the weaknesses of online learning have been highlighted.  Lack f interactive classrooms, lack of in person labs, problems with online testing, etc are all suboptimal. They make them work, but no, they are not directly equivalent.

I completely agree they are not equivalent, not at all.  What I think the future will hold is not my preferred future.

[Kassia]

22 minutes ago, rzberrymom said:

I agree. My husband is a professor at a STEM-focused university, and yesterday the president of the university pressured them tremendously to all go back to teaching in-person classes in the fall. The kids hated this experiment. They want to see the professor, ask questions in real time and in person, they hate pre-recorded segments of the class, they hated on-line tests, etc.

 

It was the exact opposite of what we expected. We’ve been thinking this would be the beginning of the end—why would the university need so many professors when they can just use pre-recorded lectures over and over and over. But, the kids revolted and don’t seem to want this remote future.

I've heard the same at the college my dd attends - faculty are being pressured to go back to teaching in-person.  I don't even think they have a choice.

Dd is one of the few students who thrived with online classes.  She prefers them and is unhappy about classes going back to normal in the fall.  

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, rzberrymom said:

I agree. My husband is a professor at a STEM-focused university, and yesterday the president of the university pressured them tremendously to all go back to teaching in-person classes in the fall. The kids hated this experiment. They want to see the professor, ask questions in real time and in person, they hate pre-recorded segments of the class, they hated on-line tests, etc.

 

It was the exact opposite of what we expected. We’ve been thinking this would be the beginning of the end—why would the university need so many professors when they can just use pre-recorded lectures over and over and over. But, the kids revolted and don’t seem to want this remote future.

It feels like the beginning of the end here. I also agree that they aren’t the equivalent. Yet our CC is completely online in the fall and they expect to keep a lot of online classes going forward even after they return in person. Apparently the faculty decided this was better for them. 

[Roadrunner]

I guess that’s what free gets you. Taxpayer has no say. 

[8filltheheart]

Conversely @Roadrunner the Us here have announced back to normal in the fall. Registration is currently taking place and dd has registered for all in-person classes. 

I dont think online is the learning boon people anticipated. Not for k12. Not for college. Even remote working, while ok for making do, is less effective than in person for many jobs.  I dont see the in person option dwindling out of existence. Some online options are likely to remain, but not the scifi version of all screen remote learning becoming the norm. 

[Roadrunner]

4 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Conversely @Roadrunner the Us here have announced back to normal in the fall. Registration is currently taking place and dd has registered for all in-person classes. 

I dont think online is the learning boon people anticipated. Not for k12. Not for college. Even remote working, while ok for making do, is less effective than in person for many jobs.  I dont see the in person option dwindling out of existence. Some online options are likely to remain, but not the scifi version of all screen remote learning becoming the norm. 

You are so lucky. Here K- 12 is going back in person. 
I don’t know any faculty gets to decide what they want to do, but they chose to keep the CC online.  I am very, very upset. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by Roadrunner