What is the point of the Ivies?

[SDMomof3]

Just now, WTM said:

 

Patents require money, as far as I know.

According to DH about $6000

[8filltheheart]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm sure it DOES feel more hypothetical to me, since my kids are so little. You're right about that.

However, from my personal perspective, knowing that there are ways to excel in a narrow area of passion and yet still get into schools is more comforting than thinking that all measures of excellence are out of reach and therefore I have to get outside validation via APs or DE classes. And I think that list clumsily gets at that fact. Yes, it doesn't list every single possible way someone could excel, but a lot of those achievements are narrow ones that could be pursued in an area of passion. 

But I can see that's not how people are reading that list. 

But, equally, you are reading too much into that list. There is no magic formula for competitive admissions. You think you know why a student was rejected at Harvrad but accepted to MIT? Without seeing their file, no one knows. Sometimes admissions outcomes seem random. Others seem completely predictable. (I'm very surprised that @Dmmetler 'a dd wasn't offered Stamps.)

[Porridge]

41 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

If your point is that money will buy you classes and tutoring, you're right, it will. But you don't NEED to have classes and tutoring to do well at this stuff. It's just easier that way. But you can also bust your rear and do well, too. 

Look, you know what's really a rich man's game? When instead of accomplishments, it becomes about who you know. You get rid of tests and lists like this, and the people who go to Harvard will be the good ol' boys club. There's no WAY to break through those ranks if achievements don't count. DH has some hair-raising stories about what kinds of "recommendations" he'd have gotten from the teachers at his school, if he didn't have achievements to show them. And yes, it mattered that he was a Jew and not "old Boston."

This is veering into a discussion I've been seeing in broader society as our country grapples with issues of equity and historical legacy of discrimination. To abolish the test might mean that all that is left is who you know. But I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that we as a society should do away with tests (or other merit based achievement platforms). I think, if i understand correctly, that people on this thread are saying that you don't necessarily need the test-based / high-pressure-merit-based system to get a good education and even, perhaps, to get into good schools. 

\\

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, WTM said:

This is veering into a discussion I've been seeing in broader society as our country grapples with issues of equity and historical legacy of discrimination. To abolish the test might mean that all that is left is who you know. But I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that we as a society should do away with tests (or other merit based achievement platforms). I think, if i understand correctly, that people on this thread are saying that you don't necessarily need the test-based / high-pressure-merit-based system to get a good education and even, perhaps, to get into good schools. 

You need to demonstrate merit somehow or another, though. You'll need SOME kind of external validation. The things on that list are generally much more geared towards areas of passion than the more standard routes. They aren't the only routes. But dismissing them as the province of the rich isn't doing anyone any favors. 

Personally, I expect to take advantage of some of the math contest routes as external validation with DD8. And that's precisely because I can do this without deforming her educational journey much. Of course, if it turns out that she'd prefer to show excellence in some other way, that would be more than fine with me. But I find it comforting that this route is predictable and I can plan for it. 

[Not_a_Number]

Deleted for privacy reasons.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[rzberrymom]

Putting faith in that list seems to me to be a path to a child with mental health struggles. I mean, published in Nature or Science?? That’s truly truly absurd.

[Porridge]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Personally, I expect to take advantage of some of the math contest routes as external validation with DD8. And that's precisely because I can do this without deforming her educational journey much. Of course, if it turns out that she'd prefer to show excellence in some other way, that would be more than fine with me. But I find it comforting that this route is predictable and I can plan for it. 

 I used to take comfort in seeing those routes and thinking these are predictable potential pathways to future security for my kids. But the past few years have had a lot of ups and downs, a lot of unexpected turns, a lot of things outside of our control, and I'm in a place where I'm simply not confident anymore. There's nothing I can do that will guarantee anything for my kids.  But it's not a bad thing, because I realize that before, I was placing my confidence in the system. If I do x, y, and z, the system will reward me with A, b, and c.  Education was a means to milk the system or survive in the system - I would never have said that to myself, because I was far too idealistic, but functionally, my actions probably belied that underlying belief. 

[Swimmer1112]

3 minutes ago, rzberrymom said:

I mean, published in Nature or Science?? That’s truly truly absurd.

We have a public high school in our city with kids who have published in science journals. They start working with professors in middle school and are published before graduating high school. 
 

 

[rzberrymom]

Just now, Swimmer1112 said:

We have a public high school in our city with kids who have published in science journals. They start working with professors in middle school and are published before graduating high school. 
 

 

That’s very different than Science or Nature.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, WTM said:

 I used to take comfort in seeing those routes and thinking these are predictable potential pathways to future security for my kids. But the past few years have had a lot of ups and downs, a lot of unexpected turns, a lot of things outside of our control, and I'm in a place where I'm simply not confident anymore. There's nothing I can do that will guarantee anything for my kids.  But it's not a bad thing, because I realize that before, I was placing my confidence in the system. If I do x, y, and z, the system will reward me with A, b, and c.  Education was a means to milk the system or survive in the system - I would never have said that to myself, because I was far too idealistic, but functionally, my actions probably belied that underlying belief. 

I guess there’s a difference between saying that they are a guarantee and saying I find it comforting they exist. Because I think the other methods of outside validation are more onerous. 

[Porridge]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I guess there’s a difference between saying that they are a guarantee and saying I find it comforting they exist. Because I think the other methods of outside validation are more onerous. 

True!

[Not_a_Number]

Anyway, take 2 on leaving the thread 😉 . Mind not quoting or tagging me? I get sucked in so easily and I have no willpower!!

[Porridge]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Anyway, take 2 on leaving the thread 😉 . Mind not quoting or tagging me? I get sucked in so easily and I have no willpower!!

come back...to the dark side...

haha. I will leave you alone!

[Roadrunner]

27 minutes ago, WTM said:

This is veering into a discussion I've been seeing in broader society as our country grapples with issues of equity and historical legacy of discrimination. To abolish the test might mean that all that is left is who you know. But I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that we as a society should do away with tests (or other merit based achievement platforms). I think, if i understand correctly, that people on this thread are saying that you don't necessarily need the test-based / high-pressure-merit-based system to get a good education and even, perhaps, to get into good schools. 

\\

I think so many of us have responded to so many different points that nobody knows what we are arguing over at this point. 😂

 

I hope nobody thinks I am arguing against merit. I am just arguing that a certain path that is often preferred here is really for a very select group of kids with certain personalities. That APs can be our friend in certain circumstances. And overall when we talk about strategies, we should probably clearly define whom we are talking about. Some strategies are just perfect for PG kids but could be disastrous for the majority (I have really seen interest based learning gone bad in homeschool communities). 

I think we all agree that forcing a kid into a certain mold is silly at best and harmful at worst. 
 

And after this entire discussion I can attempt to circle back to the original question of what was the point of Ivies. I think the point of Ivies is to continue educating private school kids with a certain pedigree and let in super competitive high functioning geniuses into their midst. 

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

I think the point of Ivies is to continue educating private school kids with a certain pedigree and let in super competitive high functioning geniuses into their midst. 

Certain Majors in certain Ivies are not very hard to get into (same at Stanford and other elite universities). By saying that super competitive high functioning geniuses are getting into them, you probably mean the hyper-competitive Majors like Computer Science and pre-med and similar sought after subjects. I personally know 2 kids who got into Ivies recently (one to study Classics and another to study Ethnomusicology) who did not have the top GPA's in their public schools, did not have many AP's, did not play any sports and also were not considered competitive geniuses. Though the internet abounds with stories of IMO gold medalists not able to get into Harvard's Math program, there are a ton of others who get in who work on other areas of study that are not as famous.

[Roadrunner]

11 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

Certain Majors in certain Ivies are not very hard to get into (same at Stanford and other elite universities). By saying that super competitive high functioning geniuses are getting into them, you probably mean the hyper-competitive Majors like Computer Science and pre-med and similar sought after subjects. I personally know 2 kids who got into Ivies recently (one to study Classics and another to study Ethnomusicology) who did not have the top GPA's in their public schools, did not have many AP's, did not play any sports and also were not considered competitive geniuses. Though the internet abounds with stories of IMO gold medalists not able to get into Harvard's Math program, there are a ton of others who get in who work on other areas of study that are not as famous.

And if you have a certain pedigree, you probably can afford to study ethnomusicology. 😉😋

[GoodGrief3]

I’m late to this and have not read all the comments yet. One of my daughters graduated from Princeton last year. I’ve got an extended family member at Yale now. For both students, it was hard to beat the financial package at the Ivy.
My daughter did have a full ride merit offer from Ga Tech, which was slightly better upfront than the need based Princeton option. I think Princeton turned out to be the better financial pick long term though. They covered summer internship costs. No deposits.  So much free stuff...food, clothing items, laundry. Deeply discounted ($25) Broadway tickets that included transportation. 

There were other positives, of course. Really appreciated the history at that school and in that area. One of her classes involved excavations at an adjacent Revolutionary War battlefield. The access to NYC was cool. One of her classes took a field trip to see Hamilton. Such an interesting mix of students from all over the world. Oh, and her engineering classes prepared her well for that career too. 🙂 

My older daughter went to UW Seattle. I really liked that school as well. We could only afford that one though because of the GI Bill. It was not an option for our second college student. They offer such limited aid and we are not in state. My older daughter was not really a Princeton candidate, though I do think she could have benefited from certain elements of that experience. I think UW was the best option for her in that time of her life, and I’m glad we had a way to make it possible. We are still paying off loans though from that more expensive education. 🙂 

We do not have a strong in-state flagship where we are. So there are a number of factors that we weigh as our children start looking at schools. My youngest is about to start the search, and her journey will likely look quite different from her older sisters. 

[GoodGrief3]

On 3/24/2021 at 5:55 PM, Frances said:

“attended an Ivy for grad school. Many professors I knew there did not want their own children to attend one for undergrad. They thought it was better to go where they would get more individual attention, such as an excellent LAC, or where they could do more of their own research, as opposed to assisting grad students. “

Sorry, I have managed to mess up the quoting on my phone. Hopefully this makes sense. I just wanted to comment that the undergrad experience will be different at different Ivy League schools. They are quite different from each other. Not sure which one you attended. My daughter’s school was (is) known for its undergrad focus, and her experience that way was positive. Lots of individual attention, professors that knew and supported her. Plenty of opportunity. 

 

[GoodGrief3]

On 3/25/2021 at 4:10 PM, lewelma said:

MIT is not an Ivy, and has NO legacy admission and no sports scholarships. They are also not involved in the lawsuit against the other elites for racially biased admissions, because 40% of MIT's applications are from Asian students, and 40% of the student body is Asian. Not having legacy standing allows them to be more fair racially. The other thing that many people may not know is that MIT admits more kids from the bottom 10th percentile of socioeconomic class than any other elite school. I'm guessing that this is because they are one of the few "need blind, full need" schools. My point is, each school will have a different profile for admission, some more fair than others. Obviously, once you make the first cut, you simply go into the lottery. 

None of the Ivies give sports scholarships. It is all need based. 

[GoodGrief3]

On 3/26/2021 at 11:15 AM, lewelma said:

This is exactly what I am trying to say. 

The problem is that you can't do everything. So if you want to go for the lottery of elite admissions you need to have the time to do something different and special and that means that there is less time for APs. But then you are likely to still want to have a great backup school, and it sounds like many of them are looking at APs and using them to weight your GPA. But of course you can do it all.  So each family will have to make a decision on how to spend limited time, and those choices cannot maximize competitiveness for both of these two admissions processes.

Personally, I'm with 8filltheheart, I'd rather march to my own drummer and let the chips fall where they may. I left the school system because I wanted to educate my children, not because I wanted to *signal* that they were educated. 

I agree with let the chips fall where they may. My daughter did not “chase Ivies” and that is not the culture where we live, so I cannot really relate to the sentiment. 🙂 We did chase money, and she applied where good money seemed to be possible.
For the record, she was not at all spiky. She was well rounded and that worked quite well for admissions for her (just saying that for the people reading along that think you need a spike to get opportunities.) She was not well rounded for the purpose of college admissions though. She had a packed resume because that’s the kind of person she was (and still is). Intensely curious about experiencing new things. And not necessarily being the best at any of the things. 🙂 

[lewelma]

5 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

On 3/25/2021 at 2:55 PM, Frances said:

Sorry, I have managed to mess up the quoting on my phone. Hopefully this makes sense. I just wanted to comment that the undergrad experience will be different at different Ivy League schools. They are quite different from each other. Not sure which one you attended. My daughter’s school was (is) known for its undergrad focus, and her experience that way was positive. Lots of individual attention, professors that knew and supported her. Plenty of opportunity. 

I think this is so true. Each school is so different from the other. We were *very* impressed with the math department at U of M Ann Arbor. It was incredibly focused on the undergraduates with weekly seminars with pizza to meet with the profs, and week tea and cookies with the profs just to chat at lunch time, and a special UG only math lounge where the profs went in regularly to help out, and amazing mentoring, and awesome UG research opportunities.  We were just overwhelmed by how great it was given that it was an enormous department of 77 professors I think, where you would expect an UG to get lost in the crowd. So after doing quite a bit of digging, we figured out why it seemed so unexpectedly UG focused.  Apparently about 5 years earlier the math department was told that either they draw in more UG or they were going to cut the professors in half. They were producing only 35 UG majors each year with a 77 member faculty.  It wasn't worth the money. So the department surveyed all the UG as to what they wanted, and the implemented all the ideas. It totally revolutionized the department and made it very UG focused. In the end, it was more money than MIT for us. But it was top in the running. You really really need to do your research school by school. It is incredibly tricky to figure out, but also incredibly important to find the right fit. 

[GoodGrief3]

On 3/26/2021 at 8:12 AM, 8filltheheart said:

LOL!  Actually, his dad tells him he wasted his yrs!  😉  He didn't attend very many games and dh didn't get the opportunity to attend bc ds wasn't going.

Neither of my olders attended football games and that disappointed me greatly 😂 I suspect my youngest will participate in that culture though

[lewelma]

4 hours ago, WTM said:

 I think, if i understand correctly, that people on this thread are saying that you don't necessarily need the test-based / high-pressure-merit-based system to get a good education and even, perhaps, to get into good schools. 

\\

So much has been said, I'm a bit lost as to all the different pieces. But I think these are my main points:

1) There are many many good schools. I have written about how both CMU and U of M were outstanding, and definitely had positives that the Ivy's we considered didn't. The decision was hard because my ds lost as much as he gained with his choice.

2) If you go to an Ivy, make sure you are at the top. I have shared the experience of 2 family members and one of my son's friends who have been badly damaged by being in the bottom half of the class at an Ivy. If you are competitive and accomplished enough to get in, it is very hard to be at the bottom.

3) I believe that there are many good paths to walk when homeschooling highschool. Consider your own situation, but evaluate your own assumptions when deciding on your educational philosophy. I have tried to offer support/an example to those who want permission to go their own way, but in the process seem to have also upset people who either have kids who like the standard path or are in systems that don't allow alternatives. For that I am sorry. All I can say is know your child.

4) I have no idea how to answer the OP's question.  I only know why my son went, and I am incredibly grateful that the outcome was positive, because I was horribly worried for at least a year until he found his feet. And I have shared how much support he needed in the first year to be able to reach his potential.

5) I obviously hate ranking kids, really hate it. I am naive. 

6) Do not go to an Ivy unless you are willing to work crazy hard. I have shared the workload my son has had to deal with. Don't go just for reputation as you are likely not to finish.

I've tried to only speak from experience. Good luck to all in navigating this crazy system.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by lewelma

[GoodGrief3]

On 3/26/2021 at 12:10 PM, SDMomof3 said:

I think they took your son’s grades at face value because his schooling was validated by his participation in the IMO. The kids who are able to get that far in math are the exception to the rule. I don’t see an average homeschooler applying to MIT with a homeschool transcript and getting accepted. 
The kids I know who got to MOP and IMO started taking AMC 8 in 2nd grade and started qualifying for AIME by 4th and 5th grade. My ds feels that he is behind because he didn’t qualify for AIME until 6th grade. 
The high school that we are looking at for my son, has about 10 students a year get accepted to MIT. These kids are not the average PS kids, they all took APs and DEs, plus they are MOP or USACO campers, or they are doing research at the University. 
 

Completely agree. There may be the rare exception but there is typically going to be some sort of validation of the homeschool transcript among those who qualify for selective schools/scholarships. It may not be AP/DE though. Competitions or research  participation is another means to that end. 

[GoodGrief3]

17 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I really don’t want to engage in this conversation because it seems to be lost on people. I am glad to see so many people make right choices for their children,  but let’s be real that those kids aren’t your average. 
Plus APs are taken in high school. I think most of us have had k-10 to develop our interests. Plenty of time to explore and fall in love with one thing or the other. How one precludes the other is beyond me. How taking 7 or 8 APs (and that’s basically what our PS kids do and end up at all sorts of UCs) in high school can prevent you from figuring out what you are passionate about while you have had all these homeschool years is an argument  I just don’t understand at all. 
And if anybody reading this is in CA, APs and/or DE remains the best way to enter the top schools in our state. And it’s just a bad advice for our state to forgo those classes in favor or home designed ones completely unless you are a special kid with a very special talent. 

And you yourself said your sister had an amazing art talent. Most kids don’t have amazing anything, and most don’t find passions. That’s just a reality. 
 

I have nothing else to add to this conversation because again, OP is asking about Ivies, and I don’t want to derail this thread anymore than I have. 

My daughter had quite a few APs because they made sense for what she needed academically. I get the impression that many think an AP course is incredibly life consuming? I suppose it could be, depending on the teacher. Some do like a lot of busywork. It was just another course here for that particular student. 🤷‍♀️ And this daughter was a good test taker, and liked that, so AP exams were not overwhelming. She will tell you even now that she very much enjoyed those courses. 

[GoodGrief3]

12 hours ago, lewelma said:

Not lost on me. I hear what you are saying. As a student I really liked being given a book, and doing the homework, and studying, and taking tests. I would have *hated* trying to 'find' myself. There was a beauty to simplicity. I went to school, ran track, did my homework, and went to sleep. I was very happy and very accomplished. My 2 boys would not have liked this approach to education, but that is why you must know your own children.

I've tried to on this thread only speak to the experience of my older son. And I have tried to be honest with his struggles so people could see that it has never been all roses. One point that I was trying to make, and perhaps I pushed too hard, is that if you actually have a *goal* of an ivy, you need to look beyond APs to be competitive. Personally, I'm not a fan of APs for my kids, because they are survey classes and we like to go into deep dives instead. But the child that was me, loved survey classes, and still does.  

I’m smiling because I would have hated “finding my passion” too in my “gifted student” days 😂 One of my early academic memories is how much I loved this color coding reading level system our school had. I relished rushing through the levels. Not a darn thing creative abt it! Loved checking boxes. Still do 😂 

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief3 said:

I’m smiling because I would have hated “finding my passion” too in my “gifted student” days 😂 

I simply took all my notes while I was in school upside down and backwards in cursive. That was enough to keep my brain engaged in class.  I was fast and it was fun! But I was not really 'finding myself'. 😄

Edited March 29, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

5 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

 We got there the teams were there with their coaches and he was there with me, his mom who doesnt know anything about physics. It was just a  son and mom day.

Boy does this remind me of my son's experience with the Australian Math Olympid (equivalent to the USAMO). We had to come up with an honest and respectable person to supervise him, so we chose our friend who was a law librarian and had space in his library for my ds to take the exam. I only found out later that my friend very much enjoyed giving my son scrap paper to write up all his answers. I'm sure that he was the first kid in AMO history to send in answers on the back of law briefs. 🙂

[GoodGrief3]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

2) If you go to an Ivy, make sure you are at the top. I have shared the experience of 2 family members and one of my son's friends who have been badly damaged by being in the bottom half of the class at an Ivy. If you are competitive and accomplished enough to get in, it is very hard to be at the bottom.

 

I will say that I think it can be somewhat difficult to gauge whether one would be at the top or bottom of a class. My Princeton daughter really did not have the transcript/resume of a lot of her classmates. She spent a lot of time on sports (but not enough time to be a college athlete). I have mentioned before that her physics and chemistry was Apologia and math through Alg 2 was Teaching Textbooks. No research experiences, no math comps. But she did end up among the top group of engineering students (and top quintile of the class of 2020 for GPA, which is as narrowly as they ranked.) She received several awards at graduation, including cash awards. My point is not to brag, but to say that I am not sure any of us anticipated how well she would do. 
It probably is important to consider personality though, and how difficult it might be to not be the big fish. 

[GoodGrief3]

34 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I simply took all my notes while I was in school upside down and in cursive. That was enough to keep my brain engaged in class.  I was fast and it was fun! But I was not really 'finding myself'. 😄

You are much more creative than me (and it shows in your current exceptional life choices too!) I was probably doodling bubble letters in the margins of the notes 😂

[lewelma]

12 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

I will say that I think it can be somewhat difficult to gauge whether one would be at the top or bottom of a class. My Princeton daughter really did not have the transcript/resume of a lot of her classmates. She spent a lot of time on sports (but not enough time to be a college athlete). I have mentioned before that her physics and chemistry was Apologia and math through Alg 2 was Teaching Textbooks. No research experiences, no math comps. But she did end up among the top group of engineering students (and top quintile of the class of 2020 for GPA, which is as narrowly as they ranked.) She received several awards at graduation, including cash awards. My point is not to brag, but to say that I am not sure any of us anticipated how well she would do. 
It probably is important to consider personality though, and how difficult it might be to not be the big fish. 

I hear that. I have deleted all my posts about my boy/family before you started reading, but my dh was in the bottom 5% of Duke, and it had a huge negative impact on him for 20 years. I was *very* and I mean *very* worried that my ds would be in the same boat. How can you tell? And I think you are right, you can't. But if you are s.t.r.e.c.h.i.n.g  desperately to get your kid in just so that they get the reputational bump, then the chances are that they will be in the bottom half, and the negative emotional impact will more than overwhelm the reputation bump. I really don't think that people realize this. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by lewelma

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The problems I have with lists like this...

It mixes a ranking of involvement or recognition in one area with equating achievements across areas. It's one thing to say running a large club is better than being a less-involved member. It's a big step to then say one group or activity is superior to another. 

It strips context of the student's situation. AP Scholar status isn't possible at schools that don't offer lots of AP courses. A student won't medal in any Science Olympiad event if their school doesn't have a team. They won't have high level math competition results absent an early introduction to the existence of math competitions.  The list doesn't include things like work, family responsibilities, or long duration volunteerism. 

It suggests that these activities will get you in to the most selective colleges. I think it suggests a weighting system that isn't actually used. Just as highly selective colleges don't simply stack students by test score and gpa, they don't take all the students with highest level achievements before going to the next level. 

 

What might be useful in looking at a list like this is realizing how many students are high achieving. A student at the top of their class of 500-1000 students may struggle to perceive that there are tens of thousands of students in the US with similar attributes to theirs. 

 

[teachermom2834]

So many of those achievements on that list are team or group achievements. One could ride the coattails of more talented team members for many of those. Even some individual awards you can’t be positioned for without a team. 
 

And while I’m not familiar with a lot of the list, the ones I am all require support. Even competing at regional level for some of this stuff costs money or significant parental or other mentor support (usually all three honestly). 

Just not buying that this is a list of accessible activities for most kids or one that levels the playing field. Most kids in most schools have never even heard of this stuff. 

[Farrar]

11 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

So many of those achievements on that list are team or group achievements. One could ride the coattails of more talented team members for many of those. Even some individual awards you can’t be positioned for without a team. 
 

And while I’m not familiar with a lot of the list, the ones I am all require support. Even competing at regional level for some of this stuff costs money or significant parental or other mentor support (usually all three honestly). 

Just not buying that this is a list of accessible activities for most kids or one that levels the playing field. Most kids in most schools have never even heard of this stuff. 

Yep.

And many of the kids who haven't heard of these things are perfectly capable of showing the merit involved - they're just under-resourced, usually because of the privilege of their families and schools. 

It doesn't downplay the merit and work involved to acknowledge the privilege of the money and support involved. At least, not if you don't pitch a fit about it and refuse to acknowledge that even some of the top honors on these dubious lists are things that require a lot of outside support.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

11 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yep.

And many of the kids who haven't heard of these things are perfectly capable of showing the merit involved - they're just under-resourced, usually because of the privilege of their families and schools. 

It doesn't downplay the merit and work involved to acknowledge the privilege of the money and support involved. At least, not if you don't pitch a fit about it and refuse to acknowledge that even some of the top honors on these dubious lists are things that require a lot of outside support.

I coached Science Olympiad for a small homeschool team. Our high school level team was very young, with a number of 6-8th grade members just to fill the team. 

Our efforts were supported by annual dues and energetic parents. When we went to coaches training at the private school campus of the usual state winner, that school's kids were working on builds in the STEM work area that also housed tens of thousands of dollars of robotics equipment and an ultralight aircraft a student club was building. 

[Farrar]

8 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

I coached Science Olympiad for a small homeschool team. Our high school level team was very young, with a number of 6-8th grade members just to fill the team. 

Our efforts were supported by annual dues and energetic parents. When we went to coaches training at the private school campus of the usual state winner, that school's kids were working on builds in the STEM work area that also housed tens of thousands of dollars of robotics equipment and an ultralight aircraft a student club was building. 

Yeah, this is so similar to my experience coaching Destination Imagination, which is semi-known but didn't even make that list except under the header of being a serious academic competition, I guess. There's a money limit on the amount you can spend on the challenge, so it would seem to be equal. Ha. Very ha ha. I mean, just to get to Global Finals, you spend a boatload. We had to travel, eat, get an Air B&B for the team, and that's in addition to the huge fees to participate. But the challenges... so many teams have things that they claim are "used" and that they've put down "fair used value" for those materials. That's utter crap. Just absolutely absurd. If you could see some of the materials that kids have - some of the engines they've built and the art supplies and so forth. It's absurd to claim it was so cheap.

Someone I knew who coached FIRST said that the rich teams absolutely never once have batteries that aren't brand new. They have boxes upon boxes and pop them in brand new for every single task and then swap them out and toss them, having used only a quarter or so of the battery, just to be sure that the robots never run on anything less that absolute power. Sigh.

ETA: And saying all this doesn't mean the kids on those winning DI or robotics teams didn't do a ton of work or learn a ton or require a lot of talent. But a ton of work when Mom and Dad can buy you endless mistakes and materials and every little competitive advantage is so different from the same thing when you have limited materials and no advantages... maybe you also have disadvantages like having to babysit your baby brother so your mom can work or not having a tutor for your math you're struggling with so you have to devote your time to that instead of your activity - because these advantages are also cumulative.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Farrar

[teachermom2834]

Homeschool teams can do well in some of these competition with fewer financial resources. I’ve been involved with that. However, the amount of time and energy the adults put in to coaching and teaching and sourcing materials etc can’t be discounted. It just isn’t an open and go for a motivated kid. 
 

Also, you will notice that a lot of these competitions have winners or competitors from the same schools year after year. It is because the schools have teachers and volunteers with experience in those competitions. They have them figured out and know what it takes. No doubt the kids are outstanding but it is disingenuous to act like having mentors who have cracked the code of what it takes to be successful in the competition isn’t a huge factor.

Edited March 29, 2021 by teachermom2834

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I do think it's important for students and families to realize that a 4.0 and high scores does not automatically mean admission to the student's dream school. 

It does matter what students do with their time out of class. Availability of activities is influenced by family, school, and community resources.  Some colleges will do more to try to perceive context than others. 

 

And to go back to the OP. The Ivy League is an athletic conference. It does not define the outer limits of quality education. 

[wendyroo]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yep.

And many of the kids who haven't heard of these things are perfectly capable of showing the merit involved - they're just under-resourced, usually because of the privilege of their families and schools. 

Yeah, I certainly had never heard of any of the things on that list when I was in high school.

I was really lucky.  I had very supportive, involved parents, but they barely had high school educations. I went to a fine, adequately funded, small high school in a tiny town in the mid-west, but the offerings were limited and weak - I had to self-study physics, some years they didn't even offer calculus.

I took the ACT and SAT (I had to travel for the SAT because my school only offered the ACT). So honors like being a National Merit Scholar just happened based on scores.

But other than that, I had very few opportunities. There weren't many academic clubs at my school - kids either played sports or had jobs. There was certainly no math club, debate team, Science Olympiad team...we didn't even have local science fairs or spelling bees. Through most of middle and high school I worked 2-3 jobs, so I wouldn't have had much time anyway.

So that would have left me to pull myself up by my bootstraps...but how exactly. My teachers and counselor weren't any more knowledgeable than me or my parents. Realistically, there were only a few kids from my school each year that even applied to the state flagship, and my counselor had never guided a student through applying to an Ivy or equivalent. Our town library was smaller than my house and certainly did not offer advanced academic texts. 

I worked hard. I made the most of what was available. I got myself into a financial position that I would be able to shoulder most of my college costs. I was incredibly high achieving for my school, but would be ranked very low according to that list. I rolled the dice and applied to MIT because I felt it would be a good fit for me.

When I got to MIT I was not NEARLY as well prepared as many of the other students who had more academic opportunities during high school - but I thrived and rose to the occasion. I was never the best student there, but am proud of what I made with what I had. I am glad MIT does not discount the achievements and potential of students who could not even dream of most of the opportunities on that list.

[madteaparty]

2 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

So many of those achievements on that list are team or group achievements. One could ride the coattails of more talented team members for many of those. Even some individual awards you can’t be positioned for without a team. 
 

And while I’m not familiar with a lot of the list, the ones I am all require support. Even competing at regional level for some of this stuff costs money or significant parental or other mentor support (usually all three honestly). 

Just not buying that this is a list of accessible activities for most kids or one that levels the playing field. Most kids in most schools have never even heard of this stuff. 

Tremendous support. My dd age 9 started robotics this year and they are competing with kids who are 16. Her coach is her dad who has a pretty demanding job and no time for that particular nonsense but there he goes building a table and holding practices. If she wants to continue I need to find (and pay for?) a coach...and that’s saying nothing about finding teammates  bc you need at least a couple people. 

[Dmmetler]

11 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

But, equally, you are reading too much into that list. There is no magic formula for competitive admissions. You think you know why a student was rejected at Harvrad but accepted to MIT? Without seeing their file, no one knows. Sometimes admissions outcomes seem random. Others seem completely predictable. (I'm very surprised that @Dmmetler 'a dd wasn't offered Stamps.)

We dropped the STAMPS application due to the "how are you going to solve the biggest problem in the world" question. L lost a dear adult Friend and mentor to COVID, plus multiple people in the Herp world, all seemingly in a bunch last October/November, and that question led to a complete meltdown. It just wasn't worth it. Especially not when the STAMPS schools were also the big ones that I was nervous about sending a 16 yr old to anyway. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Two other thoughts about why a student might choose to apply mainly to Ivy League and similar colleges -- money.

These schools tend to have large endowments from generations of involved alumni (and families of alumni). Where a small liberal arts college may depend on annual tuition to provide the majority of operating revenue, a college with a major endowment can afford to spend much, much more on each student. It's estimated, for example, that Stanford tuition covers about 20% of the cost associated with each undergrad. The rest is paid for out of earnings from the school's endowment.

There are very few colleges in the US that meet full financial need (fewer than 100). A high performing student with high need may find they pay much less at a school like Stanford or Harvard than their state flagship or a public university where they would be an out of state student. Most colleges simply cannot afford to meet full financial need. At the same time, no student should put all their eggs in the basket marked "most selective colleges" because only a fraction of the very well qualified students who apply will be admitted.

[Hoggirl]

2 hours ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

What might be useful in looking at a list like this is realizing how many students are high achieving. A student at the top of their class of 500-1000 students may struggle to perceive that there are tens of thousands of students in the US with similar attributes to theirs. 

 

^This. I have a girlfriend whose senior daughter has applied to many elite schools.  I wouldn’t exactly say that the mom had been totally unrealistic about her daughter’s chances - she is a strong student - but I don’t think her parents truly understood the level of competition out there. The daughter is now only waiting on Ivies but so far:

EA at UChicago - deferred ——-> denied
University of Denver - accepted
Rollins - accepted - merit
USF  Honors - accepted - tons of merit
UCF Honors -  accepted - tons of merit 
UNC-Chapel Hill - accepted (applied Morehead, not invited to interview)
UF - accepted, no honors - merit via Bright Futures and Benaquisto 
Colgate - accepted
Case - accepted
Lehigh - accepted
University of Rochester - accepted with merit 
Carnegie Mellon - denied
Northwestern - denied

She is only awaiting HYP at this point. 

As you can see, they crafted a nice list of safeties, matches, and reaches with a mix of Big State Us, LACs, and mid-sized universities. She is a National Merit Finalist which guarantees her lots of money here in Florida (as long as the legislature keeps Benaquisto as it is).  She had a 1500 on her SAT and a 35 on her ACT - each taken one time only.  I don’t know her exact GPA and course mix but she has her fair share of rigorous courses.  Her interest in Astro-physics. However, to me, what she has done OUTSIDE of the classroom is unremarkable.  Covid limited some opportunities, of course, but her extracurricular and service hours, etc. are all pretty generic.  I think she is president of the school band.  

Although the list is balanced, there is no doubt in my mind that her parents are both disappointed and surprised that she was denied at some of these schools.  They are high achievers with an Ivy, Duke, and Vanderbilt on their own resumes. There is no doubt in my mind that they want the branding and prestige of an elite university. I am happy she got into Rochester as I think it will suit her nicely.  However, Princeton has been her top choice all along. 
The level and type of competition out there is hard to fathom for most “average-excellent” (as they say on CC) kids. I see her as an “average-excellent” kid.  

My kid did not get accepted to the one Ivy to which he applied, but he was accepted to four top 20 universities and attended Stanford.  I disagree with the various comments about elite schools being for kids from privates but allowing certain geniuses in, about the necessity and use of college admissions counselors and paying for standardized test tutoring, and about the need to have uber high level achievements in order to gain admission. Our experience and the experience of our friends has not indicated that at all. 

I think if an Ivy/elite is a goal then, yes, there are certain things one needs to have at a minimum to be considered in the mix.  Without those, chances are slim.  Otherwise, I don’t think there is only one special sauce that gets you there.  You can be round, pointy, a lot of different things.  I do believe that a cohesiveness in one’s application that aligns coursework, skills, interests, and extracurriculars is important. I also don’t think there is anything wrong with seeking an elite school as an end goal. That can certainly be done without a ton of pressure on a kid.  

I did not homeschool ds for high school.  However, our homeschooling prior to that did allow him to progress at his own pace which allowed him to be quite accelerated in math for his age.  That certainly didn’t hurt.  He had a total of 11 AP courses in high school.  He did well on AP exams (all exams, actually). I don’t think our ds ever felt an undue amount of pressure/anxiety about whether or not he would be admitted.  It was something HE wanted, so we worked toward that goal.  However, it wasn’t the SOLE goal - that is where trouble creeps in.  

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Hoggirl
Lots of typos!

[Dmmetler]

9 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

And if you have a certain pedigree, you probably can afford to study ethnomusicology. 😉😋

Hey....I'm a musicologist. Although admittedly I have spent my career teaching kids Nd teaching teachers to teach kids... Not all musicologists come from wealthy backgrounds. Some of us just enjoy applied anthropology. 

[8filltheheart]

30 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

We dropped the STAMPS application due to the "how are you going to solve the biggest problem in the world" question. L lost a dear adult Friend and mentor to COVID, plus multiple people in the Herp world, all seemingly in a bunch last October/November, and that question led to a complete meltdown. It just wasn't worth it. Especially not when the STAMPS schools were also the big ones that I was nervous about sending a 16 yr old to anyway. 

I'm sorry to hear she had such a hard fall.  I'm glad you found better options.

25 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

Two other thoughts about why a student might choose to apply mainly to Ivy League and similar colleges -- money.

These schools tend to have large endowments from generations of involved alumni (and families of alumni). Where a small liberal arts college may depend on annual tuition to provide the majority of operating revenue, a college with a major endowment can afford to spend much, much more on each student. It's estimated, for example, that Stanford tuition covers about 20% of the cost associated with each undergrad. The rest is paid for out of earnings from the school's endowment.

There are very few colleges in the US that meet full financial need (fewer than 100). A high performing student with high need may find they pay much less at a school like Stanford or Harvard than their state flagship or a public university where they would be an out of state student. Most colleges simply cannot afford to meet full financial need. At the same time, no student should put all their eggs in the basket marked "most selective colleges" because only a fraction of the very well qualified students who apply will be admitted.

For the above conversation to make sense, families really need to understand how NPC work.  They need to understand that their definition of what they can afford and what schools' definitions of what they can afford are not the same thing.  They need to understand how formulas impact retirements contributions, how # of students in college can alter their expected familial contribution when a sibling graduates or another starts college, etc.  

If a family can receive a FA package from a meets need school that they can afford, then the above information applies.  Many middle class families cannot afford to pay their familial contribution.  Those same kids that are competitive enough for admissions to elite schools are eligible for not only automatic scholarships at a lot of schools but also competitive for schools' competitive scholarships.

Edited March 29, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

7 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

As you can see, they crafted a nice list of safeties, matches, and reaches with a mix of Big State Us, LACs, and mid-sized universities.

Even this, to me, is unfathomable. That list is huge! Did she get to visit each of these schools? How much did they spend on application fees?

I had to get a job to cover the cost of SAT & AP tests. The only campuses I could have visited were those within 30min of home; one a state flagship, the other a “party school”. My mom couldn’t afford to take off work even to travel the 1-3hrs to other in-state universities or colleges. I only applied to a couple of schools, due to the cost of applications. It wasn’t worth $50-$100ea - that was a week of groceries. 

[Roadrunner]

21 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Hey....I'm a musicologist. Although admittedly I have spent my career teaching kids Nd teaching teachers to teach kids... Not all musicologists come from wealthy backgrounds. Some of us just enjoy applied anthropology. 

So am I! 😂😋
 

I didn’t want to imply musicians are wealthy, but that few of us can afford to pursue certain passions. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Roadrunner

[teachermom2834]

8 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I

For the above conversation to make sense, families really need to understand how NPC work.  They need to understand that their definition of what they can afford and what schools' definitions of what they can afford are not the same thing.  They need to understand how formulas impact retirements contributions, how # of students in college can alter their expected familial contribution when a sibling graduates or another starts college, etc.  

If a family can receive a FA package from a meets need school that they can afford, then the above information applies.  Many middle class families cannot afford to pay their familial contribution.  Those same kids that are competitive enough for admissions to elite schools are eligible for not only automatic scholarships at a lot of schools but also competitive for scholarships.

This is really important info. When my oldest graduated in 2016, if he had acceptance into a needs met school it would have been an amazing financial opportunity. He would have been one of those going cheaper to the fancy school than he could have gone anywhere else. Now, my 2021 high school graduate could not even consider such schools. Just five years of raises, retirement account growth, home equity growth, fewer dependents/children in college has flipped the situation entirely, even though it sure doesn't feel like we are all of a sudden rolling in it. 

The thing that always needs to be pointed out, as 8 did, is that any kid that can get into those schools can also get great scholarships at public universities. So it really isn't (shouldn't be) Ivy or bust. Not for education, peers, prestige, or money. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by teachermom2834

[Dmmetler]

11 hours ago, Swimmer1112 said:

We have a public high school in our city with kids who have published in science journals. They start working with professors in middle school and are published before graduating high school. 
 

 

Science journals, yes.  Nature or Science is another level entirely. 

 

In Herpetology, there are multiple levels of publication. The first tier is small, state level Herpetological society journals. These are usually free to submit to, are peer reviewed by a team of professionals in the state who volunteer their time, and encourage submissions by pre-professionals in part to teach about the process. Intermittent steps are often published in these journals.  High school students working with a mentor can be published reasonably.

 

The next tier are peer reviewed, open access digital journals. These have a reasonable publication charge, are peer reviewed nationally, and, again, are usually smaller projects. Again, the chance of getting a project into one is reasonable for a high school student who is really focused on it and gets lucky enough to have a few good field seasons. 

 

Then, you get to the biggies-Herpetological Review, American Journal of Ichthology and Herpetology, Herpetologica, Journal of Herpetology. These are published by the BIG societies and are national or international in scope. They are published in print and art part of the big journal databases, and if you want a single article from one that you don't have access through a college, you will pay through the nose. Setup fees are hundreds of dollars at minimum. Most projects in these have taken longer to do than a kid would have been inhigh school for. Realistically, a high school student might make it on the acknoweldgements page, or as one of a huge number of authors. 

 

 

Finally, you get to Nature and Science. We're talking a minimum of $5000 if your paper is paywalled, and more than twice that to make it open access. And that's if your work is considered important enough to make it in at all. The chance of a high school student being published this way? Very low. Truthfully, a kid who can make it in Nature while in high school probably doesn't need to go to college at all!!

[Hoggirl]

9 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Even this, to me, is unfathomable. That list is huge! Did she get to visit each of these schools? How much did they spend on application fees?

I had to get a job to cover the cost of SAT & AP tests. The only campuses I could have visited were those within 30min of home; one a state flagship, the other a “party school”. My mom couldn’t afford to take off work even to travel the 1-3hrs to other in-state universities or colleges. I only applied to a couple of schools, due to the cost of applications. It wasn’t worth $50-$100ea - that was a week of groceries. 

It is a large list (16 in total, I believe), and they no doubt paid quite a bit in application fees. Our ds applied to 11 schools in the fall of 2013. 

She has not.  She has visited the in-state schools that were allowing on-campus visits, but she did many other tours virtually because of Covid.  I think she had also visited Case in person because they have family near there.  They had visited P’ton (her top choice) before Covid hit.  She is on spring break this week, and they are driving to Rochester since she has not been there, and it is now emerging as “the one.”