Checking in... Anxiety about current events

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

If you're listening to this stuff, you are too deep into the conspiracy world. 

Yup. And I find it really sad because I feel like we're watching someone get sucked into the QAnon world in real time. This isn't the first QAnon link that's been posted. ☹️

Here are a few highlights of that "nonpartisan" video, for those who don't want to waste braincells watching it:

 

“Go watch [these movies] to get an idea how disgusting these people are, and they have the gall to call you a right-winger or a conspiracy theorist or a white supremacist or a Neo-nazi — they’ll do it to everybody.”

“This is the movement that the establishment will not give you, you’re going to have to do it on your own. … They allow the Me Too movement because they can make it about hatred of men and weaponize it. They’ll give you the BLM movement because they can weaponize it and make it political … all these people who get up and say we live in an oppressive system are taking checks from white men who are paying them.”

These groups are into satanic child sacrifice, and they murder children for pleasure. Children are killed by the time they reach 6 or 7.  They also harvest their organs to sell on the back market. Refers to the “Wayfair scandal” and says Pizzagate is real. Bill Gates is a member of a massive pedophile group. “They have a pipeline of kids going all the way from Haiti to the Vatican on boats.”

They have infiltrated government and own ALL of the politicians, right and left. “There is a unified cabal of powerful people who serve these powers and they keep the theater going for you and I running back and forth voting every four years.”

The six biggest media corporations in the country are all implicated in human trafficking and they are purposely hiding it from the public. The “Gatekeepers” at the top “want you to think that we’re the problem, instead of the 1/10th of 1 percent who control everything and have the gall to turn around tell us that we’re the problem or white people are the problem or black people are the problem.” Then he tells a story about how they had a BLM protest in his neighborhood where everyone behaved themselves and no one yelled or pulled the confederate statue down, and there was a restaurant packed with people “with no masks and everyone was fine.” Says “they” are making these into divisive issues so people won't find out about the satanic pedophile rings.

“If you’d have told me this three years ago, I’d have said you were crazy… but the satanic shit that is going on in our music industry and in Hollywood is so out there, you see the occult symbolism in everything, and they sew it into the consciousness of these children through witchcraft and making it seem fun… They promote diversity and tolerance to confuse people so they don’t even see it.”

Edited January 29, 2021 by Corraleno

[katilac]

30 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Thanks for watching that so that I didn’t have to...

You're welcome, but Corraleno is apparently the real OG and watched a lot more than I did.

6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Yup. And I find it really sad because I feel like we're watching someone get sucked into the QAnon world in real time. This isn't the first QAnon link that's been posted. ☹️

These groups are satanic and sacrifice children for pleasure. Children are killed by the time they reach 6 or 7.  They also harvest their organs to sell on the back market.  

They have infiltrated government and own ALL of the politicians, right and left. “There is a unified cabal of powerful people who serve these powers and they keep the theater going for you and I running back and forth voting every four years.”

Then tells a story about how they had a BLM protest in his neighborhood where everyone behaved well and no one yelled or pulled the confederate statue down, and there was a restaurant packed with people “with no masks and everyone was fine.” Says “they” are making these into divisive issues so people won't find out about the satanic pedophile rings.

“They promote diversity and tolerance to confuse people so they don’t even see it.”

Derides and dismisses BLM and #metoo, nice 🙄

Questions that may keep me up at night: 

Is there a specific cut-off age at which he stops caring if people are sexually assaulted? 

If they're killing that many children and harvesting their organs, shouldn't there be less of an organ shortage? 

If there is a worldwide cabal of powerful people who can orchestrate multiple crimes, including multiple and ongoing murders, why don't they just, y'know, kill this guy? 

Diversity and tolerance are confusing? And bad? 

[Corraleno]

24 minutes ago, katilac said:

You're welcome, but Corraleno is apparently the real OG and watched a lot more than I did.

Derides and dismisses BLM and #metoo, nice 🙄

Questions that may keep me up at night: 

Is there a specific cut-off age at which he stops caring if people are sexually assaulted? 

If they're killing that many children and harvesting their organs, shouldn't there be less of an organ shortage? 

If there is a worldwide cabal of powerful people who can orchestrate multiple crimes, including multiple and ongoing murders, why don't they just, y'know, kill this guy? 

Diversity and tolerance are confusing? And bad? 

Yeah it's a nice two-fer: whip up anger at politicians, media, celebrities, Bill Gates, and other "elites" while insisting that issues like sexual harassment, racial injustice, and a deadly pandemic are just smokescreens designed to distract us, and we need to ignore those "divisive" issues so we can "unite" to fight the satanic pedophiles who control the world. 

I also find it interesting that he claims he saw pedophilia all around him for the 20 years he was in Hollywood, but then says that until three years ago he would never have believed all this stuff. So he was surrounded by it for 20 years, but didn't know it existed until ... the QAnon nuttery started???

Edited January 29, 2021 by Corraleno

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

This is mostly true, but there is another question here, and it's inherent.

At what point do companies like Zoom, Facebook, Google, etc. become so ubiquitous and so necessary that they cross over into being essentially utilities or news outlets?  Or monopolies?  Like ATT?

I am curious about how this discussion intersects with the thing going here in Aus.  The GOV wants to make google etc pay content providers for the news.  Google is threatening to pull out of Australia entirely (which would render half my kids stuff obsolete).  It becomes complicated.  Are they content providers or just a medium for content access?  

[Katy]

I’ve found IME child trafficking hysteria has been spread most by people who I know were sexually abused as children by a stepfather or mom’s boyfriend. Idk if the whole topic is so triggering for people they can’t be rational or if it’s somehow comforting to think it’s  bigger than just them & their family members. 
 

I’m still furious about the case in Wisconsin where a teen killed her trafficker. The cops had been called there before, found multiple underage girls tied up naked, and didn’t arrest him then.  I guarantee if a blonde teen was the one who’d gotten her hands on a cell phone that man would have been arrested instead of killed. But she was a black girl so she was dismissed as “just a prostitute” by the racist DA. As if 12-15 year old girls can consent to anything.

[Pawz4me]

10 hours ago, Pen said:

This is related to s€x  traffic - nonpartisan -  concern for children https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfYiMPCh4L4

 

 

I'm not directing this at Pen specifically, but more a general comment and question --

It seems to be a thing to see very biased or truly wacko links posted (here and other places) more often now where the poster claims it's non-partisan/unbiased. Is this a tactic that's being pushed in order to try to get more people who are simply curious hooked on QNut and other conspiracy stuff? I first noticed it among posters who have a very right leaning bias, and at first I wondered if they were just out of touch on what nonpartisan/unbiased meant, or if it was a type of trolling. But it seems to be becoming so widespread I have to wonder if it's an intentional tactic to try to lure people in?

[TravelingChris]

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

No, I'm not watching this. 

Child trafficking is largely a myth. It's a very dangerous myth because it allows us to be complacent about the people who pose the most risk to our children, people we know. Our children are much more at risk for people that we willingly invite into our home than any Hollywood actor. 

I'm not saying that there are not incidents. They are rare but they happen. 

If you're listening to this stuff, you are too deep into the conspiracy world. 

 

And almost all children who are actually trafficked are foster children.  Not that this isn't a problem because the foster care system is a huge mess- note the death of the Food Network star\s child last week and the horrible abuse going on in the Florida children;'s author this week.  But it really is not a widespread problem for people who live regular lives and children who live with caring natural parents.

[Spryte]

This same video appeared in my email, from a source that I don’t know well.  I didn’t click on it or watch, but planned to research today to see what it’s all about. It must be really making the rounds for me to have seen it, wow.  I don’t do SM other than here, and this board is my source of knowledge about current conspiracy theories, mostly.

Thanks to those of you who watched and summarized.  I did not want to give it more views.

In addition to the concerns above, it’s baffling to see a YouTube video touted as a reliable source for information. I teach my kids to view all YouTube videos with skepticism, and thought that was fairly common practice among those of us teaching critical thinking.  

Edited January 29, 2021 by Spryte

[Dmmetler]

I've also got a friend who's neighbor is an ICE agent, and every time they raid a business and find undocumented folks there,  the excuse is that they've rescued these folks from trafficking. They aren't being kept from working and sending money back to help their families, they're being exploited, don't you know, so therefore being sent to jail and shipped back to where they belong is good for them.  Which has also done a good job, in my friend's mind, at linking Mexican restaurants as being fronts for bad stuff, as opposed to a place to get a delicious meal. Especially the kind of family ones I like, where the menu is in Spanish and your meal may well come with a side of life advice delivered by Abuela. 

 

And while I didn't meet the link, she is an abuse victim (by her father), so I imagine that any link to such abuse is very triggering to her. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

It seems to be a thing to see very biased or truly wacko links posted (here and other places) more often now where the poster claims it's non-partisan/unbiased. Is this a tactic that's being pushed in order to try to get more people who are simply curious hooked on QNut and other conspiracy stuff? I first noticed it among posters who have a very right leaning bias, and at first I wondered if they were just out of touch on what nonpartisan/unbiased meant, or if it was a type of trolling. But it seems to be becoming so widespread I have to wonder if it's an intentional tactic to try to lure people in?

I don't know if it's a tactic, but I know a huge segment of people in my life who share this stuff really do believe it's being suppressed by the mainstream media, and that it's truly unbiased. Many don't know (or at least didn't likely know until recently) that some of this can be tracked back to QAnon or other conspiracies. They are passing along something from a concerned friend or something they stumbled onto when they searched out more information after googling it themselves. It wouldn't surprise me if people who are hard-core QAnon do this, but I know a lot of people that don't even realize what they are passing along (and unfortunately, don't seem to care). 

Among people I know, there is a subset of people that touts basically everything QAnon does, but they repudiate QAnon at the same time. They are paranoid of the same things and often justify it with ideas about the End Times and claims of conspiratorial government overreach. Many of these people are super spiritual, so my church friends who know them pass it along (some of the craziest people have left my church over time for churches that are more...not sure of the word, but churches that tend to look down on psychology in favor of "Biblical" counseling/nouthetic counseling, etc."). 

I did unfriend some relatives that I don't really know in person (huge family, lots of people connected on FB), but they were seriously into QAnon. I think they got hooked via health influencers (one of them has a SN child whose seizures have been helped with dietary intervention--they still use traditional meds too), but I don't know that for sure. The family patriarch and matriarch worked in full-time ministry for decades, so I was very shocked to see them proselytizing for QAnon. 

There is another Plandemic-style video circulating as well. I don't remember what it is called, but it's more vaccine misinformation.

[Pam in CT]

re use of child trafficking trope as recruitment tool

10 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Hysteria about child trafficking is one of the things that drove the QAnon narrative forward. ..

The amped-up emphasis of the satanic trafficking trope served an instrumental function.  Until a year or so ago, QAnon followers were overwhelmingly men.  The Wayfair and #SaveTheChildren myths, which circulated and disseminated quickly through different social media channels like crafting/ parenting/ wellness groups on platforms like Pinterest and church groups, successfully crossed QAnon over into many more women. 

[Also: homeschooling and education boards]

 

 

And as an instrument to identify and attach to women, the global cabal intent on snatching and trafficking white children hits a resonant chord because

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

.. The myths are politically convenient. ..

The Sex Trafficking Panic is Based on Myths

The people that we trust and invite into our homes pose the biggest risk to our children. Not strangers in the grocery store or parked in a white van by the school.

the evidence-affirmed truth about child abuse is that kids are most likely to be abused by a known person with close familial proximity (stepfather/ uncle); and next most likely to be abused by a known person in a position of authority and trust (coach, clergy, teacher).

That is a *mighty uncomfortable truth to hold.*  I will never forget my experience as a young parent, reading Gavin Becker's Gift of Fear, and trying to absorb the data and the implications it thrust at me -- my unhappy brain darting between mental images of the particular uncles in my 4 year old's life -- my own brother, my husband's brother, my sister-in-law's husband -- and trying to assess them as potential abusers of my sweet little girl. The exercise was HORRIFYING, it literally made my stomach churn, I literally couldn't sustain the thought.

But that unhappy place is where the odds lie.

And that is so hard to hold-- even as an abstract idea to a person like me reading an abstract BOOK, let alone to...

2 hours ago, Katy said:

I’ve found IME child trafficking hysteria has been spread most by people who I know were sexually abused as children by a stepfather or mom’s boyfriend. Idk if the whole topic is so triggering for people they can’t be rational or if it’s somehow comforting to think it’s  bigger than just them & their family members. ..

... people who have themselves endured trauma at the hands of stepfathers and uncles and clergy and teachers and other adults who ought to be trustworthy.

 

So much better to associate child abuse with Strangers, lurking in dark corners, commandeered by an all-powerful cabal pulling unseen strings.

 

And if that same hidden satanic cabal is simultaneously "creating" the tide against racial injustice and sexual violence and the "hoax" of COVID?

7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Yeah it's a nice two-fer: whip up anger at politicians, media, celebrities, Bill Gates, and other "elites" while insisting that issues like sexual harassment, racial injustice, and a deadly pandemic are just smokescreens designed to distract us, and we need to ignore those "divisive" issues so we can "unite" to fight the satanic pedophiles who control the world. ..

Well.

That is indeed quite a neat little trick.

[Amy Gen]

4 hours ago, Katy said:

I’ve found IME child trafficking hysteria has been spread most by people who I know were sexually abused as children by a stepfather or mom’s boyfriend.

I’m not sure about the exact percentage of abuse that is perpetrated by mom’s boyfriend or new husband, but having had a stepfather myself, I decided when I was very young that if I could just do this one thing (never expose my kids to the risk of my having a boyfriend or second husband) I would substantially cut their risk of being abused. 
 

I know some really amazing step parents and blended families, so I think intellectually, that this is an over reaction on my part, but emotionally, I feel like it is a small sacrifice for me to make if it helps them to grow up without additional trauma. 
 

My eyes have always been close to home when trying to protect my kids. I remember the first time I let my oldest spend the night with my sister, I told my kid, “Now if Auntie tells you that you are all going to meet mom in Mexico for a fun. Surprise vacation, RUN! RUN!”

I was only half joking. 

[Pam in CT]

(( Amy Gen ))

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Katy said:

I’ve found IME child trafficking hysteria has been spread most by people who I know were sexually abused as children by a stepfather or mom’s boyfriend. Idk if the whole topic is so triggering for people they can’t be rational or if it’s somehow comforting to think it’s  bigger than just them & their family members. 

I know childhood sexual abuse is common, but the number of people I've seen sharing the there are sex traffickers in every Walmart parking lot! posts seem to exceed that. The latest: not only did the traffickers follow this young lady for miles, her zigging and zagging didn't put them on guard and they obligingly followed her into a Walmart parking lot where the police she called were waiting for them. They of course had warrants for sex trafficking and were all arrested! 

I know there are stupid criminals out there, but still . . . no. 

Why is it always Walmart? Do sex traffickers not know that Target exists? 

2 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

And almost all children who are actually trafficked are foster children.  

I would agree that almost all children who are trafficked are at-risk, but I've never heard that they are almost all foster children. Do you know of a particular person or site that says that? 

[Sneezyone]

59 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

I’m not sure about the exact percentage of abuse that is perpetrated by mom’s boyfriend or new husband, but having had a stepfather myself, I decided when I was very young that if I could just do this one thing (never expose my kids to the risk of my having a boyfriend or second husband) I would substantially cut their risk of being abused. 
 

I know some really amazing step parents and blended families, so I think intellectually, that this is an over reaction on my part, but emotionally, I feel like it is a small sacrifice for me to make if it helps them to grow up without additional trauma. 
 

My eyes have always been close to home when trying to protect my kids. I remember the first time I let my oldest spend the night with my sister, I told my kid, “Now if Auntie tells you that you are all going to meet mom in Mexico for a fun. Surprise vacation, RUN! RUN!”

I was only half joking. 

This. I never had a stepdad but saw with my own eyes the damage caused by creepy relatives and the partners of women who ‘just wanted somebody’ in their lives.

WRT current events and its impact on functional society and governance...

What are the odds members of Congress will begin suing other members in their individual capacities? Isn’t this what Alex Jones was sued for? Defamation or stalking?

Edited January 29, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Pam in CT]

re prospects of tamping down conspiracy theories through civil suits

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

...What are the odds members of Congress will begin suing other members in their individual capacities? Isn’t this what Alex Jones was sued for? Defamation or stalking?

(I live 20 minutes from Sandy Hook/Newtown and, like many folks in the area, was *transformed* emotionally and politically by the mass shooting itself and the conspiracy-theory-driven aftermath)

There have been several runs at civil suits by the Sandy Hook families at Alex Jones, but the legal line that seems ultimately to have successfully threaded the needle includes TWO components: 1) that Jones knew he was furthering lies when he frothed forth about child actors staging a false flag event in order to TAKE OUR GUNS; and 2) that he was doing so in order to hawk his vitamins/ water supplements to fix the gay frogs/ snake oil.  That is, the suit was able to establish both the "knowingly" and the "intent" hurdles: I knowingly lie so as to drive traffic so as to sell snake oil.

This is the same threading-the-legal-needles sequence that Seth Rich's brother used successfully with Fox for their dissemination of the HRC-ordered-Seth-Rich's-murder lie (NYT article)...

... and also the same logically sequence that Dominion has recently used both to effect retractions from Fox and Newsmax about their dissemination of the Hugo-Chavez-directed-electronic-voting-machines-to-switch-candidates lie...

... and which Dominion actually did file against Giuliani last week. The basis of the suit (AP article here; actual filed complaint here) is that Giuliani knew perfectly well his claims were false (Chavez is long dead, the machines aren't connected to the internet, the machines generate a paper record, in the ~60 suits Giuliani and his comrades attempted to lodge he himself repeatedly said "we are not alleging fraud in this motion"... only questions about process) but the hype driven by the click bait enabled him to sell cigars and (always) vitamin supplements on his new show.

 

So in all three cases, the legal line includes BOTH a component that "this demonstrates the person spouting the conspiracy theory knows full well it's false" AND ALSO one that "this demonstrates how the person is making money by driving clicks and viewers to their money-making business"  (snake oil in Alex Jones and Giuliani's cases; the standard ad-based media businesses of Fox and Newsmax).

 

In the case of legislators reeling against their colleagues inciting crowds to "fight to Stop the Steal" before the coup attempt... or tweeting out their office locations during the coup attempt... or reportedly giving tours of the Capitol tunnels the day prior or receiving calls from the instigators outside the Capitol as it took place...  I expect there will be SOME effort at accountability; there has to be. But absent the snake oil sales I'm not sure it can be quite the same line of reasoning.

 

That snake oil (and the grifting of small donations from passionate supporters and other tawdry monetization of the gullible) is surprisingly central to the cultivation of conspiracy theory adherents.  It's *almost* like it's the *point.*

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Pam in CT
added link to Dominion complaint

[Sneezyone]

35 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re prospects of tamping down conspiracy theories through civil suits

(I live 20 minutes from Sandy Hook/Newtown and, like many folks in the area, was *transformed* emotionally and politically by the mass shooting itself and the conspiracy-theory-driven aftermath)

There have been several runs at civil suits by the Sandy Hook families at Alex Jones, but the legal line that seems ultimately to have successfully threaded the needle includes TWO components: 1) that Jones knew he was furthering lies when he frothed forth about child actors staging a false flag event in order to TAKE OUR GUNS; and 2) that he was doing so in order to hawk his vitamins/ water supplements to fix the gay frogs/ snake oil.  That is, the suit was able to establish both the "knowingly" and the "intent" hurdles: I knowingly lie so as to drive traffic so as to sell snake oil.

This is the same threading-the-legal-needles sequence that Seth Rich's brother used successfully with Fox for their dissemination of the HRC-ordered-Seth-Rich's-murder lie (NYT article)...

... and also the same logically sequence that Dominion has recently used both to effect retractions from Fox and Newsmax about their dissemination of the Hugo-Chavez-directed-electronic-voting-machines-to-switch-candidates lie...

... and which Dominion actually did file against Giuliani last week. The basis of the suit (AP article here; actual filed complaint here) is that Giuliani knew perfectly well his claims were false (Chavez is long dead, the machines aren't connected to the internet, the machines generate a paper record, in the ~60 suits Giuliani and his comrades attempted to lodge he himself repeatedly said "we are not alleging fraud in this motion"... only questions about process) but the hype driven by the click bait enabled him to sell cigars and (always) vitamin supplements on his new show.

 

So in all three cases, the legal line includes BOTH a component that "this demonstrates the person spouting the conspiracy theory knows full well it's false" AND ALSO one that "this demonstrates how the person is making money by driving clicks and viewers to their money-making business"  (snake oil in Alex Jones and Giuliani's cases; the standard ad-based media businesses of Fox and Newsmax).

 

In the case of legislators reeling against their colleagues inciting crowds to "fight to Stop the Steal" before the coup attempt... or tweeting out their office locations during the coup attempt... or reportedly giving tours of the Capitol tunnels the day prior or receiving calls from the instigators outside the Capitol as it took place...  I expect there will be SOME effort at accountability; there has to be. But absent the snake oil sales I'm not sure it can be quite the same line of reasoning.

 

That snake oil (and the grifting of small donations from passionate supporters and other tawdry monetization of the gullible) is surprisingly central to the cultivation of conspiracy theory adherents.  It's *almost* like it's the *point.*

 

Thanks for this! I wonder if the solicitation of campaign contributions would meet the second part of that test? I’m sure smarter ppl. Than me are thinking through the options.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Katy]

4 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Re the bolded...  I don't get this (not what you said, but how it happens).    How is it that people can't see that Q is a bunch of baloney?   Is there a personality defect?   A mental health issue?  (I have mental health issues.  I still don't see how this happens, but I know it does.)   Dh is conservative Republican and makes fun of the lone Q guy at work.   So how is it that some people get sucked into this bizarro world where they believe something that defies all common sense??  

I keep having the same conversation with DH.  I kind of get how one person we know got sucked in...  his ex wife is the lowest functioning narcissist I know.  But everyone else?  Can whole swathes of the population be that low in critical thinking skills?  Do they just suspend disbelief so they have someone who they perceive to be on their side in power?  It doesn't make any sense to me.

[Amy Gen]

26 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Re the bolded...  I don't get this (not what you said, but how it happens).    How is it that people can't see that Q is a bunch of baloney?   Is there a personality defect?   A mental health issue?  (I have mental health issues.  I still don't see how this happens, but I know it does.)   Dh is conservative Republican and makes fun of the lone Q guy at work.   So how is it that some people get sucked into this bizarro world where they believe something that defies all common sense??  

This might sound really ugly, and I’m sure that other posters will have had a different experience but...

I have some very beloved people in my life who are prone to conspiracy theories and one characteristic that they all share is a low level of education. Just sayin’.

[Frances]

Here’s one article that explains the reasons some get sucked into QAnon and other conspiracy theories. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202009/how-does-qanon-hook-people-in

I think the most concerning part for me is that lies, propaganda, disinformation, and conspiracy theories became a huge part of leadership messaging for the last five years with a constant assault on MSM, even those  reliably rated center and highly factual. A large swath of the population has been primed to seek alternative facts and live in biased media and social media bubbles and are thus very vulnerable to things like QAnon. The whole “stop the steal” is just the most recent example and rather than recognize the danger to individuals, their party, the country, and the very heart of our democracy, most of the leaders involved continue to perpetuate the lie because it benefits them personally. Their unwillingness to stand up and do the right thing is unconscionable.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Frances

[Melissa Louise]

It kinda is ugly to blame ppl getting brainwashed on low IQ. 

Cults recruit successfully across a range of IQ levels. Intelligence doesn't actually protect against cult brainwashing. 

 

[Shoeless]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It kinda is ugly to blame ppl getting brainwashed on low IQ. 

Cults recruit successfully across a range of IQ levels. Intelligence doesn't actually protect against cult brainwashing. 

 

The pp didn't say low iq. They said low levels of education. It's a different thing entirely.

[Sneezyone]

It must be said that a lot of the $$ behind these theories comes from degreed individuals tho. Just look at the insurrection arrests— most were people from solid middle- to upper-income households. The names on the permits, the speakers, all wealthy and degreed. That said, I’m sure we can all agree that degrees do not a well-educated person make. It makes us feel better to think they’re all Bubbas with high school diplomas but that isn’t the case. In my own life, I know teachers(!) and chiropractors who all fell prey.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't see that anyone here has blamed it on low IQs. Some have suggested a correlation with less education. 

 

'Low functioning', sorry. 

Very intelligent and educated people are susceptible to cults and cult like thinking. Q stuff is a cult. An online cult. It's not something only  dumb aka low 'functioning'/low education believe. It's dangerous, imo, to assume that one's education insulates against cult tactics. 

 

[Amy Gen]

10 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It kinda is ugly to blame ppl getting brainwashed on low IQ. 

Cults recruit successfully across a range of IQ levels. Intelligence doesn't actually protect against cult brainwashing. 

 

I know you are right. That is why I said that I just noticed this with my own friends and family. Even then, it is low education and not low IQ. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

'Low functioning', sorry. 

Very intelligent and educated people are susceptible to cults and cult like thinking. Q stuff is a cult. An online cult. It's not something only  dumb aka low 'functioning'/low education believe. It's dangerous, imo, to assume that one's education insulates against cult tactics. 

 

I don’t think it insulates but it does protect, I’d guess. Because habits of reasoning are protective.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Amy Gen said:

I know you are right. That is why I said that I just noticed this with my own friends and family. Even then, it is low education and not low IQ. 

There's a correlation there....

[Amy Gen]

12 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It kinda is ugly to blame ppl getting brainwashed on low IQ. 

Cults recruit successfully across a range of IQ levels. Intelligence doesn't actually protect against cult brainwashing. 

 

Quoting you again to say that my relative who is in a cult has an extremely high IQ but impaired social skills. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don’t think it insulates but it does protect, I’d guess. Because habits of reasoning are protective.

Until one is motivated by other factors to ditch the reason. Very few ppl, regardless of functioning, bring reason to bear equally on all issues. 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

Quoting you again to say that my relative who is in a cult has an extremely high IQ but impaired social skills. 

So your relative is especially vulnerable to influence from others due to deficits in his/her social/emotional skill set...is probably how I'd put it. 

You may not know this, but low functioning is often used as a synonym for low IQ. Which is why it's best avoided in favour of more specific language. IMO. 

[Pam in CT]

The Wayfair and #SaveTheChildren tropes, about the trafficking of white children by unseen but powerful cabals, did not target low IQ people.

The targets were (are) people who care about the welfare of children. What could pull maternal heartstrings more than that?

That's why it WORKED.  That's how QAnon crossed over from mostly-men's gaming and incel and white supremacist circles, over to women who'd affiliated around crafts and cooking and wellness and Bible study.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I just went back to double check and yeah, we debated how well education inoculates against conspiracy theories about about 10 pages ago. I don't think there is an easy explanation for why even well-educated people can be prone to follow conspiracy theories.  

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

The Wayfair and #SaveTheChildren tropes, about the trafficking of white children by unseen but powerful cabals, did not target low IQ people.

The targets were (are) people who care about the welfare of children. What could pull maternal heartstrings more than that?

That's why it WORKED.  That's how QAnon crossed over from mostly-men's gaming and incel and white supremacist circles, over to women who'd affiliated around crafts and cooking and wellness and Bible study.

As always, Pam, you get to the heart of the matter...focusing on the people and movements and interests behind the curtain. The next logical question, of course, is WHY?? The people we see everyday are victims/pawns, sometimes dangerous in their own right, but still victims.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Amy Gen]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

So your relative is especially vulnerable to influence from others due to deficits in his/her social/emotional skill set...is probably how I'd put it. 

You may not know this, but low functioning is often used as a synonym for low IQ. Which is why it's best avoided in favour of more specific language. IMO. 

I’m genuinely confused. It is probably my chemo brain affecting me, but I don’t even remember using the term “low functioning”.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Amy Gen said:

I’m genuinely confused. It is probably my chemo brain affecting me, but I don’t even remember using the term “low functioning”.

Oh prob me getting mixed up with posters. Imposing in a rush. Someone said it, second half pertinent to them. 

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I just went back to double check and yeah, we debated how well education inoculates against conspiracy theories about about 10 pages ago. I don't think there is an easy explanation for why even well-educated people can be prone to follow conspiracy theories.  

No everyone has read every page. Goodness me. 

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Until one is motivated by other factors to ditch the reason. Very few ppl, regardless of functioning, bring reason to bear equally on all issues. 

 

No, but the habit does help. It’s not perfect, but it helps. Nothing is fully protective.

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

No, but the habit does help. It’s not perfect, but it helps. Nothing is fully protective.

I think it helps most to be aware that we are all, regardless of education, IQ or functioning, susceptible to complex forms of motivated reasoning. 

[Not_a_Number]

15 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I just went back to double check and yeah, we debated how well education inoculates against conspiracy theories about about 10 pages ago. I don't think there is an easy explanation for why even well-educated people can be prone to follow conspiracy theories.  

Because people are tribal and most are more affected by the desire to belong than the desire to be discriminating.

Really, people’s behavior around conspiracies is very easily explicable from where I sit. I find most people irrational about most things and unwilling to face things that don’t line up with their prejudices most of the time.

I usually find it more surprising when I find people who AREN’T like this. I really value evidence-minded people and try to take note of who they are. I’m on this forum because it has a disproportionate number of such people...

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think it helps most to be aware that we are all, regardless of education, IQ or functioning, susceptible to complex forms of motivated reasoning. 

No kidding. I say this all the time. But I’m not going to pretend that my education hasn’t helped me understand this.

[OH_Homeschooler]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

No everyone has read every page. Goodness me. 

I wasn't judging anyone. Goodness me. 

[Spryte]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

'Low functioning', sorry. 

Very intelligent and educated people are susceptible to cults and cult like thinking. Q stuff is a cult. An online cult. It's not something only  dumb aka low 'functioning'/low education believe. It's dangerous, imo, to assume that one's education insulates against cult tactics. 

 

This is true.  On a personal anecdotal note, I have a dear IRL friend who fell prey to a real life (not online) cult and only extricated herself with years of therapy and basically going into hiding, like self-imposed witness protection.  She was brilliant, had multiple graduate degrees and had attended excellent schools - all prior to joining the cult.  She told me she felt it was a personality thing, that she needed more structure.  She had not learned to create structure for herself, went from structured home life to very structured college and grad schools.  It certainly was not related to a lack of education or intelligence.

I don’t personally know any overt Q people, but from looking in on the outside, and thinking, “what lack are they trying to fill?” I most often think that it’s related to cognitive dissonance and trying to make sense of the world through that lens, wanting/needing to find meaning where perhaps there is only chance, and a need for community that reinforces one’s beliefs (as opposed to seeking out people or even tolerating people with dissenting views).  Also an inability to change, a sort of rigid thinking that makes one incapable of adjusting when new facts are presented (i.e. “But they told us not to use masks!”  ... and thus being unable to pivot when new data emerges that masks are helpful. Actually maybe that example speaks to a lack of understanding about the scientific method.) And just the simple rabbit hole nature of YouTube, Pinterest, FB, etc leading one further and further down a hole to radical ideas.

Though reading more now, and seeing the bloodthirstiness and brutality expressed by some of these people ... I feel like I’m missing something. These can’t be real people pining for this?!  I mean, mass televised executions, massive power outages and brutal civil war is a step beyond “rigged” voting machines and what’s the latest thing?  Space lasers?  Where is this level of brutality coming from?  

I often think some people have spent too much time watching The Walking Dead and fantasizing about an apocalypse, so much that they think that they can tolerate - or thrive on - the chaos and privations that would ensue.  Where, instead, when it comes down to it and they find themselves in jail, they are crying that they can’t eat unless it’s organic food, and are “owed” pardons. 

 

 

[Terabith]

18 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

No, I'm not watching this. 

Child trafficking is largely a myth. It's a very dangerous myth because it allows us to be complacent about the people who pose the most risk to our children, people we know. Our children are much more at risk for people that we willingly invite into our home than any Hollywood actor. 

I'm not saying that there are not incidents. They are rare but they happen. 

If you're listening to this stuff, you are too deep into the conspiracy world. 

 

Yup.  

Edited January 29, 2021 by Terabith

[Katy]

50 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Oh prob me getting mixed up with posters. Imposing in a rush. Someone said it, second half pertinent to them. 

I said low functioning with regard to someone who got sucked in's ex wife, but it was "low functioning narcissist," which is extremely different than low functioning in any other context.   The point was he'd believed the lies of a narcissist who couldn't function in society many times before.  In this woman's case her IQ is extremely high.  Her ability to function in life is extremely low.

[GracieJane]

Humans have been susceptible to dumb conspiracies since a snake invented one about how “you can eat a bunch of fruit and you’ll be as smart as God!”. We are hardwired to believe anything that flatters us and we‘ll pay money to hear someone say it’s not our fault.

Edited January 29, 2021 by GracieJane

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

Here’s one article that explains the reasons some get sucked into QAnon and other conspiracy theories. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/psych-unseen/202009/how-does-qanon-hook-people-in

From that article:

Quote

If we’re really up to the challenge of having a meaningful dialogue with someone about their conspiracy theory beliefs, we have to start by listening and not trying to argue. Start by asking people what kinds of information they trust, and mistrust, and why. Ask them how they decide what to believe and not believe. Any hope of challenging belief systems has to start from understanding the answers to those questions.

I think that fear of the Other is a big part of this. They don't trust that people with a different worldview can be honest. What I don't get is that they don't see the dishonesty on their side, or they dismiss that dishonesty as not being as bad (all politicians lie, but at least we got our judges). I find this particularly dismaying because I am conservative (moderately), and I am painted as being not at all discerning because I won't look past lies and "I am suddenly pro-xyz because it will buy me votes." 

But mistrust is definitely a thing. 

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Until one is motivated by other factors to ditch the reason. Very few ppl, regardless of functioning, bring reason to bear equally on all issues. 

True. 

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

I don’t personally know any overt Q people, but from looking in on the outside, and thinking, “what lack are they trying to fill?” I most often think that it’s related to cognitive dissonance and trying to make sense of the world through that lens, wanting/needing to find meaning where perhaps there is only chance, and a need for community that reinforces one’s beliefs (as opposed to seeking out people or even tolerating people with dissenting views).  

I think this is difficult for them. My views are pretty much the same between 2015 and 2020 in the sense that I stayed more traditionally conservative, but moderated a bit (moved a little left, but not over the fence left). Those around me went extremely right in a matter of days between election day 2016 and the next Sunday at church. They had somehow managed to talk themselves out of any and all discomfort they felt about choices they didn't want to make, and I was not on board, so I had to be pre-empted. We couldn't have conversations from my POV (but they could explain their reasoning). If a conversation had to take place, my position was defined up front as invalid and essentially a capitulation (I voted third party and had tons of reservations about what their vote would do to the moral fabric of Christianity). No one had to mention me by name--they just had to shut the conversational door so fast that I couldn't get a toe in or check my ID, so to speak, to be sure that if I came in, my ideas would be ushered right back out.

And this is largely with people who would say they don't follow Q (but I would posit that some stances where people actively compare End Times prophecy with what is going on in the world becomes cultish even if theoretically, my belief in the end times is similar to theirs). With the Q people it's worse.

Regarding where this intersects with people who claim Christianity is that I think many Christians think, "No one supports Christianity, and the Bible tells us we'll suffer scoffing and persecution, so I might as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb" and then they just stop thinking critically at all. They see the anti-Christ behind every bush (except bushes festooned with a red elephant, lol), and they just lose their ability to reason. Right now, everyone on my FB feed is convinced that Facebook is censoring scripture verses and sharing memes about it (apparently they did block a specific site and have now fixed that problem, but I think the memes started first).

I am not sure how many are interested in my assessment of the religious right, but I do think that religious vs. secular adds another layer of stuff to break through.

[kbutton]

21 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I don't want to offend but I don't think you can discuss Q, where it came from and how it grew, without also discussing the religious right. I think that many of the hard-core Q believers are actually less likely to be regular church-goers. I suspect that Q orthodoxy replaces religion for many people. 

I've observed that the people I know who are regular church-goers are not Q believers but often spout conspiracy theories originating in the Q world. 

I don't disagree that it might function as religion, but many of the videos of the QAnon folks in the capitol suggest they think they are Christians, even if they don't attend church. There are some churches that have completely subsumed QAnon into their End Times theology and preach on Q drops. I don't have a link right now, but I had one a few months ago (might have been inside an article on Christianity and QAnon).

The bolded--I see the same thing.

25 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I am writing this as a religious believer but what is the difference between believing in any religious orthodoxy and the Q theories? We ask how can people believe in Q but how many Americans believe that the world was created 6 thousand years ago in 6 days. 

This is exactly my point. People scoff at them (me) for believing in creation (plenty scoff at old earth as well as young earth), so they think if they are going to be scoffed at, the scoffing is based on prejudice, not facts. They aren't going to be persuaded to give up being scoffed at for young earth beliefs to be scoffed at for old earth beliefs. 

(I am not going to get into a creation debate, but plenty of people scoff at anyone who is a creationist, even if they believe in an old earth view. Yet people with an old earth view feel that science is on their side--perhaps it is more in line with science, but plenty of atheists put them all in the same bucket labelled "Crazy." My experience is that people who are wholly secular don't generally distinguish one kind of creation from the other except maybe people on this forum.)

People who see some truth in some of the QAnon conclusions (without knowing where they came from) are likely to just glom onto those ideas and lump them in with End Times or some other thing they feel is the closest thing and take any shade coming their way as vague persecution because of their Christian beliefs. The proof of legitimacy is, in their view, wrapped up in the scoffing and persecution.

21 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Is Q a manifestation of a society that is becoming more secular? The habit of religion in its American form, with dogma and dramatic conversions, is still there but the practice of religion, going to church, has stopped. So people apply their habits to something new. 

Yes, and I think the bolded can take many forms, not just Q. I think people can become obsession with all kinds of things that aren't as nuts as Q but that they start pursuing with religious fervor. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

It must be said that a lot of the $$ behind these theories comes from degreed individuals tho. Just look at the insurrection arrests— most were people from solid middle- to upper-income households. The names on the permits, the speakers, all wealthy and degreed. That said, I’m sure we can all agree that degrees do not a well-educated person make. It makes us feel better to think they’re all Bubbas with high school diplomas but that isn’t the case. In my own life, I know teachers(!) and chiropractors who all fell prey.

In my life, an accountant (who is also otherwise a really lovely person, but strangely got sucked into this) and a lawyer. 

I think a lot of it comes from wanting to be the person “in the know” about some secret thing that all the regular people are ignorant of. I know people who are low-information voters who consistently characterize others as low-information voters. They think that’s not them because they listen to Rush every day. 

[Katy]

31 minutes ago, Quill said:

In my life, an accountant (who is also otherwise a really lovely person, but strangely got sucked into this) and a lawyer. 

I think a lot of it comes from wanting to be the person “in the know” about some secret thing that all the regular people are ignorant of. I know people who are low-information voters who consistently characterize others as low-information voters. They think that’s not them because they listen to Rush every day. 

Interestingly, no one I know who’s actually got  secret clearances has fallen for any of this stuff.  Or other conspiracy theories for that matter. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

(I am not going to get into a creation debate, but plenty of people scoff at anyone who is a creationist, even if they believe in an old earth view. Yet people with an old earth view feel that science is on their side--perhaps it is more in line with science, but plenty of atheists put them all in the same bucket labelled "Crazy." My experience is that people who are wholly secular don't generally distinguish one kind of creation from the other except maybe people on this forum.)

I guess I would put the "Old Earth" creationism in a different category, personally. I think believing things that aren't falsifiable ("There is a Creator") doesn't require cognitive dissonance in the same way. My concern is always about things that do require cognitive dissonance.

(I'm an utter atheist but think that religion provides meaning in people's lives and we do give our kids a Jewish education. So make what you will of that.)