Thanks

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, BeachGal said:

We are purple eaters here, too. Purple veggies and fruits are full of anthocyanins which are a type of flavonoid which have all kinds of benefits. In Singapore they’ve even developed a purple bread that has a lower glycemic index and causes less of a spike in blood glucose.

https://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/0716p18.shtml

https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/17/health/purple-bread/index.html

Can I ask what foods people consider purple? 

I always get stuck on that red/purple/blue division.  I mean some foods are clearly red (e.g. tomatoes), but I'm not so sure where beets, purple cabbage, red grapes, and various berries go.  

The only food I feel like I know is purple is eggplant, and it's one of the few vegetables I dislike, so my poor kids don't see it very often. 

[Drama Llama]

OK, I looked at the list.  If you consider all those foods purple, then I'm serving something purple most days, although not necessarily at dinner.  

If blueberries and blue corn are purple and I'm supposed to serve my kids a rainbow, what counts as a blue food?  

[Pam in CT]

re agency vs directed management

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

No, he's fine with any vegetable that they actually eat, although apparently black beans are not a vegetable.  Based on this, I'm guessing that avocado, sweet potatoes, and tomato sauce aren't either.  For one of his kids, the only vegetables she eats (by his standards) are carrots and peas. I've been showing the two youngest kids the ingredients that I'm using  and asking them if there's a veggie they would like to try, and if there isn't I add peas or carrots to the meal.  I usually alternate between the two. 

I do feel like asking me to "plunk some peas on their plates" is a big ask.  For context, before this I didn't ever force my kids to take a food onto their plate.  I serve a nice variety.  I model eating a nice variety.  I serve foods that are close to what they like, so they can chain from one food to another (e.g. taco soup was new, but my kids like both tacos and hamburger soup so I figured they'd like it), but I don't ever force the issue.  And it's worked in that I have kids who eat quite a bit of variety, although with one of them it took time to get there.  To me, introducing the idea that they can't be trusted with choices, or that they should listen to me and not their own bodies, or that vegetables are so gross your mom has to make you eat them does feel like a big deal to me.

For a while, we did something where I'd serve the food my way, and if he wanted them to eat differently, he'd come and fix a plate for them from what was on the table.  But it led to a lot of whining about why my kids didn't have to eat peas, or get to drink water instead of milk.   His feeling was that we should just plate everyone's food, and then his kids would see the kids and adults modeling eating peas.  I'm not comfortable with forcing a food choice on my kids like that, and I'm also pretty sure that if I did force them to eat peas, they'd make it up by eating less of other vegetables.  I also don't want to eat peas for dinner every night.  So, we came up with the following compromise.  When I'm feeding the kids, I can serve what I like, and how I like it as long as each kids eats a vegetable and protein at every meal.  If they're feeding the kids, they can serve what they like, and how they like, but my kids are allowed to leave stuff on their plate.

At this meal in my example, his issue wasn't the vegetables, it was that he didn't think that quesadillas and milk was enough protein. 

I'll also point out that I'm not there at lunch.  So, he could feed them peas every day for lunch, or even breakfast or snacks.  

Hmmm.

There is so much evident good faith in all of this. You obviously have an extraordinary extended family, with members in every direction going to immense lengths to support one another through your respective trials.  That is is GIFT, and that big picture matters more than any one detail.

I am confident you'll muddle through to some reasonable balance.

Part of the way that *I* would think my way through, if I were in your shoes, would be to consider the meal-to-meal dynamic as a sort of projection out from what look, from the bolded bits above, to be a difference in underlying principles about agency and choice. 

Your kids are older, and you and the GIL are adults; his are younger. You and your kids and presumably your GIL have long made autonomous choices about what foods to put on your plates/ take into your bodies; you have over time constructed a general culture and meal-specific habits of laying before them a more-or-less healthy set of options to choose from; and over time within that regimen your own (slightly older) kids have developed a pretty-wide palate, a pretty-good sense of nutritional principles, and pretty-good habits of basic manners towards the person making the effort to prepare their food.   And that's a lot.

Having lived that way for years, for you to suddenly start plopping portions onto their plates for them... well, a *lot* of older kids would be quite baffled by that; and I dare to say a good portion would be disinclined actually to eat what for whatever reason they didn't want to eat. As an adult, in any kind of home setting, that would be *quite weird* to me. What if I don't *like* the (forex) eggplant plonked on my plate?  Well: I wouldn't eat it, or much of it.

Which then brings us to the "eat everything on your plate" dynamic.  Or else you can't have dessert, or or else you're not excused from the table, or or else you're being rude to the cook and should apologize... or other. Many families do operate this way, in effect introducing an element of coercion into eating.  And it is a reasonable approach for young children (I'd argue it gets more controlling/more likely to backfire into unintended consequences as they age). 

But the thing is: parental willingness to use a degree of coercion (even soft coercion like dessert or manners guilt) to control what food goes into their kids' mouths in a particular meal is an expression of parental willingness to use coercion, generally.  And while reasonable people can disagree about cooked peas v raw snap beans v eggplant v is tomato sauce even a vegetable??!; all of those are all "little issues" that pale in comparison to the obvious good intrafamilial faith with which y'all are approaching the immense difficulties you're facing....

... and I'd be willing for the sake of shalom bayit  to work up a cycle of easy-to-plonk-on-the-table veggies and proteins (say: raw crudites, HB eggs, hummous) that they like and BIL "counts," from which they could take (or he could plonk on their plates, directively, if your main offerings failed to meet his not-always-evident-in-advance criteria of what "counts")...

... I would, myself, really have trouble if anyone suggested that *I* start plating *my own kids'* food. 

No. For me, concepts of agency and autonomy really are First Principles.  Guiding principles not just for food (which ultimately seems just a reflection, here, of other sources of light and heat), but of parenting itself, the individuation and separation that ultimately is the job of both parents and kids, of the development of autonomy and self.

It is OK that you and BIL have different concepts of agency and autonomy. To me, it would not be OK that his ask is, in essence, that his concept overrules yours.

As a general matter, I try (do not always succeed) to keep little things to little reactions; and to roll my eyes alone with my inside peeps rather than "air things out" with the wider circle. There are not too many areas where the considerable effort and vulnerability and risk of a deep dive discussion that gets down to a serious discussion of foundational values and how they manifest in surface-level habits and dynamics is warranted.

But you're living together, for a very extended time, in the throes of grief and COVID and illness and strain. I might pick this one.

 

Or crudites and hummous. All kids will eat raw crudites and hummous if they're hungry enough.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Pam in CT
typo

[ktgrok]

15 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 

Tomato based sauce (e.g. marinara or bolognese or pizza sauce) (veggie or not?)

Sweet potatoes in various formats (veggie or not?)

Black beans, lentils, chickpeas, soy butter  (veggie? protein?  neither? both?)

Cheese as part of a dish (e.g. pizza, ravioli, quesadilla)

So, what says the hive?  

Assuming picky kids:

tomato based sauce - if a significant amount of it, yes 

sweet potatoes - um..maybe. for one meal now and then, yes, fine. It has lots of fiber and beta carotene like a carrot. As a daily for many days a week thing, no. At that point I would not. 

black beans, lntils, chickpeas as a protein. soy butter is not a protein or a veggie. I mean, that would be like calling corn oil a veggie, lol. And certainly not a protein - it has no protein in it! 

Cheese - protein if a decent amount of it. Not if it is just a sprinkle. But say, a pizza with heavy tomato sauce and normal amount of cheese? Yeah...okay that has veggie and protein, but I'd add some apple slices or whatever fruit they like to bulk up the fiber. 

I think it is important to think of WHY you are including say, veggies in the diet- for vitamins and fiber. So tomato sauce has vitamins, plenty, but not fiber. so I wouldn't serve meal after meal with just that, unless there was another fiber source, like fruit or beans. 

I will also say that what the doctor told my mom years ago when dealing with a kid who hated most veggies (me - I'm a super taster) was to subsitute fruit, preferably of a wide range of colors. So if they won't eat carrots, get cantelope or peaches, if they won't eat tomatoes, get some stawberries and red grapes in them, etc. And for greens, well, those hide in smoothies, lol. 

[ktgrok]

Oh, and at my house with one kid with food issues due to PANDAS (he was even refusing his favorites at one point) plus a picky toddler, etc our rule is a fruit OR veggie with every meal. Taht makes it a bit easier, and I do make sure to vary between those. 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

No, he's fine with any vegetable that they actually eat, although apparently black beans are not a vegetable.  

At this meal in my example, his issue wasn't the vegetables, it was that he didn't think that quesadillas and milk was enough protein. 

I'll also point out that I'm not there at lunch.  So, he could feed them peas every day for lunch, or even breakfast or snacks.  

So, what do the black beans count as?  Not a vegetable.  Did they count as part of the protein--cheese on the quesadilla, milk, black beans, turkey in the soup. protein in the avocado, protein in the sour cream--it sounds as if there was plenty of protein offered at the meal.  

Is it that he is trying to micromanage eating?  Or is it that he has a very limited diet himself with a meal defined as a serving of meat and a green vegetable?  

[Lady Florida.]

13 hours ago, matrips said:

What you made and what they ate sounds perfectly fine.  The other parent sounds a bit controlling or neurotic if they find fault with it.  It’s good healthy food and a very nice variety.

 

13 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

The "what counts" language is cracking me up.   Who "counts"?  Every meal... there's going to be another meal, in, like, six minutes or something.  I definitely never aimed to get every kid perfectly balanced every time, just kept a vague eye on the big picture.

 

 

13 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I see.

Perhaps he'd like to take the task on a few nights a week.

While your meal sounds fine to me, I'm keying in on this - the controlling parent who isn't the one cooking. It sounds like your BIL either doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand the concept of an overall healthy diet. Of course having protein and healthy fat in a meal helps you feel full longer, it isn't necessary to micromanage everything that goes on the plate. 

[Drama Llama]

...

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey

[Terabith]

Back when my kids were little, and I was focusing heavily on nutrition, I aimed for 10 fruits/ veggies eaten throughout the day, including one from each color group (red, orange/ yellow, 2 green, blue/ purple, and periodically a white/ brown - mushrooms, onions, garlic).  I also tried to make sure they had two servings of a protein rich food in a day.  I never looked at single meals.  And I didn't sweat this; my kids would have days where they ate virtually nothing and other days where they ate tons, and I figured that it balanced out over a week or two.  But those were my nutritional GOALS.  I had one kid who drank a ton of milk and that has served in their life as a major nutritional filler, but I have another child who, other than breast milk, has never really been willing to consume milk, other than occasional chocolate or milk with ovaltine.  

In my mind, beans are a protein for sure, but I'm willing to consider them also a veggie, but I probably wouldn't count them as both at the same meal, and I'd feel like I was definitely kind of flexing on the beans = veggie.  

I think tomato sauce is definitely a vegetable, but we always make our own sauce here at home (and it's very rich in an assortment of veggies).  Most of the time, I think we don't eat enough sauce for it to be a full serving of veggies, but for some meals, absolutely enough, and it certainly counts as a vegetable, even if it's not often eaten in enough quantity to be a full serving.  But also, what counts as a serving for particularly little kids is also fairly small, too.

Cheese is definitely a protein, in my mind.  It's also a fat, but whole milk is high in both protein and fat.  

The idea that avocado isn't a vegetable boggles my mind.  I also am kinda boggled by the idea of really separating out fruits and veggies, since botanically, almost all things we consider vegetables are really fruits.  

I do love the grace and good will and amount of help your family shows to each other, but I would be seriously annoyed by a BIL who doesn't cook or prepare food but micro manages food and also isn't very educated about either nutrition or children.  I mean, I do get the difficulties with blending families and wanting to shape tastes and stuff, but the idea of just plating, and forcing others in the extended family to eat, the same few things his children will eat in the interests of fairness, is just.....well, annoying.   

[almondbutterandjelly]

To remove the protein issue, can't you just look at how many grams of protein are in the foods and say, yes, that has __ grams of protein in it.  For instance, Wowbutter has 7 grams of protein per 2 tablespoons.  I don't know where the line should be drawn as far as how many grams of protein constitute an agreed upon definition of protein, but it seems like you could science this.

Milk and a cheese quesadilla, for instance, seem plenty protein-y to me.  A cup of whole milk has 7 or 8 grams of protein.  A random cheese quesadilla on the internet has 24 grams of protein.  Seems like you covered the protein.  This is not subjective.

[Pam in CT]

The surface-level problem is: you will never be able to predict, in advance, what "counts" or not.  So you can't solve the problem that way.  Every meal -- or at least, every food or dish that is new to his kids -- will be a a new revelation, to you, about what he "counts."

That's not tenable, so even if you were willing, you can't solve the problem by only serving what he "counts."

Y'all *have* to find a different system to solve the issue.

It is, in essence, a structural problem, not a food category problem.

[SKL]

I'm surprised at how many people aren't willing to give black beans the veggie cert.

Black beans are basically a superfood.  They have iron, fiber, and vitamins E and K as well as protein, not to mention zero fat.  They help moderate blood sugar etc.  I have no problem counting them as both a protein and a vegetable, especially in a meal which also includes fruits.

[Melissa in Australia]

3 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Can I ask what foods people consider purple? 

I always get stuck on that red/purple/blue division.  I mean some foods are clearly red (e.g. tomatoes), but I'm not so sure where beets, purple cabbage, red grapes, and various berries go.  

The only food I feel like I know is purple is eggplant, and it's one of the few vegetables I dislike, so my poor kids don't see it very often. 

We mostly eat what we grow ourselves. The purple  veggies I grow are beetroot, purple cabbage and some purple carrots. Last winter I also tried purple broccoli. I can only grow broccoli  in the late autumn and winter (too many catapillers the rest of the year) 

We also grow some lettuce that has a reddish, purple colour, but I count it as a green 

We also grow blueberries. They are an extra. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey

[Bootsie]

The discussion of the kids eating peas reminds me of a time when my kids were preschoolers.  I had a friend who lived about an hour away who needed to come into town for an important doctors appointment and I kept her two preschoolers.  I knew that they had a long drive home after a stressful day, so I invited the family to stay for dinner.   

The other parents started into their four year old who was wearing a long sleeve shirt and had pushed the cuffs up toward her elbow that it was not proper manners to have sleeves not 100% down at the dinner table.  Then they began counting how many peas the four-year old had on her fork at one time--not the total number of peas eaten, but how many at one time!  They had a rule that there had to be at least four peas on a fork or it wasn't proper manners.  DH was teaching a night class that evening--so it was the other couple, me, and two four year old's and two in high chairs at the dinner table.  When the other father began correcting my daughter's table manners saying that he was "the man of the house" in her father's absence--it was all I could take.  They were never invited back to eat again.  

That same family had what to me were some odd rules about eating--two slices of pizza was the appropriate amount--never more never less; there was no adjustment for the diameter of the pizza or the number of pieces it was cut into.  They served jello with fruit cocktail added to it and then would monitor how much each bite had of jello and fruit with their kids.  

[Acorn]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Maybe it would be easier if you decided nutrition doesn't matter till January. Normal people are living on cookies right now.

 

We eat cheese before the cookies. It all balances. 

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey
multiquote issues

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Melissa in Australia said:

We mostly eat what we grow ourselves. The purple  veggies I grow are beetroot, purple cabbage and some purple carrots. Last winter I also tried purple broccoli. I can only grow broccalie in the late autumn and winter (too many catapillers the rest of the year) 

We also grow some lettuce that has a reddish, purple colour, but I count it as a green 

We also grow blueberries. They are an extra. 

That sounds really good.  I can't grow anything, I have a brown thumb.

This is going to make me sound like an idiot here, but since we call it "red cabbage" here it's always been a red vegetable in my mind.  I probably should have used my eyeballs.  

[Tanaqui]

My god, Bootsie, those poor kids! The only person showing poor manners at the table was that father, and I can only imagine how badly he treated that child at home!

[kristin0713]

17 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Nooooooooooooo we'd have the same handful of foods every night. 

I have a pretty strong visceral need to feed my grandfather in law.  He was the person who was there for my kids every day for the past two years, and cooking was a major part of how he showed his love.  But grief is hitting him hard, and now it's my turn to feed him and nurture him.  My SIL is also really struggling with pregnancy related nausea, so if I'm there cooking for him and my FIL, then it makes sense for me to feed her and her kids too.  

And I get that he's anxious.  I should probably delete some of what I said.  Everyone is anxious.  It's been quite a year.  

I think you are doing an incredible job and being extremely accommodating.  Are BIL and SIL complaining about what you are serving their kids?  I really hope not.  The fact that you are trying to do this in a way that is healthy and offers choice to the picky eaters goes above and beyond. The meal you posted above is excellent and with tons of variety.  I say this as someone with a family full of extremely picky eaters.  It's very frustrating and there is never a night where I please everyone, NEVER, unless we get take out and they all choose their own meal.  

 

[Melissa in Australia]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

That sounds really good.  I can't grow anything, I have a brown thumb.

This is going to make me sound like an idiot here, but since we call it "red cabbage" here it's always been a red vegetable in my mind.  I probably should have used my eyeballs.  

Well Canadian Dh calls it red cabbage.

And complains that I don't cook it as well as his mother. She apparently could get it to go red. I use her German recipe and always end up still purple. I asked her once and she said sometimes she would add jelly crystals to get the 'right' colour

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

The discussion of the kids eating peas reminds me of a time when my kids were preschoolers.  I had a friend who lived about an hour away who needed to come into town for an important doctors appointment and I kept her two preschoolers.  I knew that they had a long drive home after a stressful day, so I invited the family to stay for dinner.   

The other parents started into their four year old who was wearing a long sleeve shirt and had pushed the cuffs up toward her elbow that it was not proper manners to have sleeves not 100% down at the dinner table.  Then they began counting how many peas the four-year old had on her fork at one time--not the total number of peas eaten, but how many at one time!  They had a rule that there had to be at least four peas on a fork or it wasn't proper manners.  DH was teaching a night class that evening--so it was the other couple, me, and two four year old's and two in high chairs at the dinner table.  When the other father began correcting my daughter's table manners saying that he was "the man of the house" in her father's absence--it was all I could take.  They were never invited back to eat again.  

That same family had what to me were some odd rules about eating--two slices of pizza was the appropriate amount--never more never less; there was no adjustment for the diameter of the pizza or the number of pieces it was cut into.  They served jello with fruit cocktail added to it and then would monitor how much each bite had of jello and fruit with their kids.  

That is so dysfunctional. 

Take that same dynamic and imagine that those kids are now teens are young adults. Would anyone put up with that cr-p? Why do we think that's ok to do to young children?

[Drama Llama]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

That is so dysfunctional. 

Take that same dynamic and imagine that those kids are now teens are young adults. Would anyone put up with that cr-p? Why do we think that's ok to do to young children?

I don't think it's exactly the same, but the pattern I see over and over again is parents freaking out as their kids start to gain weight in preparation for puberty, and becoming super controlling. 

[freesia]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

The discussion of the kids eating peas reminds me of a time when my kids were preschoolers.  I had a friend who lived about an hour away who needed to come into town for an important doctors appointment and I kept her two preschoolers.  I knew that they had a long drive home after a stressful day, so I invited the family to stay for dinner.   

The other parents started into their four year old who was wearing a long sleeve shirt and had pushed the cuffs up toward her elbow that it was not proper manners to have sleeves not 100% down at the dinner table.  Then they began counting how many peas the four-year old had on her fork at one time--not the total number of peas eaten, but how many at one time!  They had a rule that there had to be at least four peas on a fork or it wasn't proper manners.  DH was teaching a night class that evening--so it was the other couple, me, and two four year old's and two in high chairs at the dinner table.  When the other father began correcting my daughter's table manners saying that he was "the man of the house" in her father's absence--it was all I could take.  They were never invited back to eat again.  

That same family had what to me were some odd rules about eating--two slices of pizza was the appropriate amount--never more never less; there was no adjustment for the diameter of the pizza or the number of pieces it was cut into.  They served jello with fruit cocktail added to it and then would monitor how much each bite had of jello and fruit with their kids.  

Wow!  The *only* thing I could see that would make those rules even make sense is if you had a kid who only ate the jello and then was too full for the fruit or ate peas one at a time and the meal last 2 hours.  Even then,it is way too controlling.

The pizza thing--well, I have mentioned to my kids that I've noticed that most people see 2 pieces as the right amount to take in public.I don't know why, but that is the vibe I get.  Kids who take more do seem to be seen as greedy.

[Drama Llama]

On 12/17/2020 at 4:46 PM, freesia said:

Wow!  The *only* thing I could see that would make those rules even make sense is if you had a kid who only ate the jello and then was too full for the fruit or ate peas one at a time and the meal last 2 hours.  Even then,it is way too controlling.

The pizza thing--well, I have mentioned to my kids that I've noticed that most people see 2 pieces as the right amount to take in public.I don't know why, but that is the vibe I get.  Kids who take more do seem to be seen as greedy.

At birthday parties, etc . . . 2 slices per kid seems to be what they order.  So, I do advise my kid to take no more than 2 and then wait till everyone is served and see if there's left overs.  

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey

[freesia]

20 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Tomato based sauce (e.g. marinara or bolognese or pizza sauce) (veggie or not?)

Sweet potatoes in various formats (veggie or not?)

Black beans, lentils, chickpeas, soy butter  (veggie? protein?  neither? both?)

Cheese as part of a dish (e.g. pizza, ravioli, quesadilla)

So, what says the hive?  

Tomato based sauce--yes veggie(but,sorry Reagan,not ketchup)

Sweet potato-- absolutely a very healthy rich vig

legumes of all types--protein and starch

cheese--protein

My uncle and mom had legendary fights about food during joint vacations.  My uncle had many more rules.  I remember being royally annoyed by having to eat my peas (the only veg/protein (it's both!) that I detested.)  In the end, years later, my uncle admitted my mother hadn't ruined us by being less controlling.  Everyone turned out fine (his girls did their rebelling in their 20s.)

 

[SKL]

To be fair, I think it is kind of normal to be a bit more picky / controlling with younger kids.  I can understand trying to develop good habits at an early age, before many kids go through the stages where they push back on everything.

I might have tried some of that myself, and I might have failed.  😛  With experience we gain wisdom, but I get where they are coming from.

Counting the peas on the fork though ... that is just funny.  They'll give up soon enough.  😛

[freesia]

19 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

I'm not a dietician by any means so I have no idea how these things truly count but the answers in bold is how I would handle those foods in my own house.

But one oz of cheese had 7 grams of protein.  That's a lot.

[SKL]

As far as messaging to the BIL - I think that given the way things have gone so far, I would just ask him to suggest backup protein/veggies to be available a la carte all the time.  I would not argue with his choices.  If he wanted to "plate" his kids' food, so be it.  I would continue to let my own kids eat buffet-style the same as always.

If there is a fuss because Kid A gets more freedom than Kid B, then have a ready explanation, such as Kid A's age or whatever.

If for any reason this is not workable, I would prepare a separate snack for the guest kids that covers the bases, e.g. baby carrots and hummus or yogurt.  I would serve that at a different time than dinner.

I would really try to get away from having every meal evaluated on an ongoing basis.  That would get old really quick.

[freesia]

19 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

OK, I'm going to post what I served, and what people ate today, and see how people feel about the meal.

If I'm serving the meal, I don't plate it.  I just put everything on the table, and let people serve themselves, obviously with help for any little kids.  For my kids, I make sure what's on the table is balanced, but then I let them choose freely.  But the other parent wants to hear what they ate, and is concerned that it includes milk, protein, and veggie at every meal.  

Today I served:

Taco soup (ground turkey, pinto beans, tomatoes, peppers, onions, corn, and some seasoning)

Vegetarian black bean soup 

Quesadillas made with whole grain tortilla and cheddar cheese

Red peppers, baby carrots and guacamole

Salsa, sour cream, and shredded cheese

Pears and blueberries

 

4 youngest kids, aged 6 to 10 ate:

Kid 1: Several bowls of taco soup with cheese, peppers with guacamole, pears, blueberries, and water

Kid 2: Turkey fished out of the taco soup with cheese, carrots with guacamole, pears, blueberries and milk

Kid 3: Quesadilla, black bean soup, carrots, pears, and milk

Kid 4: Quesadilla, red peppers, pears, blueberries and milk 

 

 

I'm impressed. In my opinion, everyone ate a healthy, well rounded meal.

[freesia]

18 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I would count that as a meal for lunch or maybe for a once a week dinner but not as an every night thing if that makes sense

I agree.  Pasta with tomato sauce or pizza is a once every couple of weeks meal, mostly because it is high in carbs and fat, not because it lacks any vitamins like say hot dogs would.

[freesia]

18 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

The "what counts" language is cracking me up.   Who "counts"?  Every meal... there's going to be another meal, in, like, six minutes or something.  I definitely never aimed to get every kid perfectly balanced every time, just kept a vague eye on the big picture.

That said...

Tomato based sauce - I guess technically tomato is healthy fruit not a veg, but I anyway manage to "fruits and vegetables" as a category. And I make it up from tomato paste, so there's no sugar... but unless I jam lentils and carrots and stuff into it, I don't really "count" it as anything, just garnish. (Same, FWIW, for pesto despite the pignoli and cheese. The only pasta sauce I'd "count" nutritionally is Jimmy Kimmel's #genius hack alfredo, which is solidly a protein.)

Sweet potato - I guess technically is a starch/carb, but sufficiently nutritious that I "count" that one as a veg.

Legumes - protein.  We have black bean soup probably once a week; it's definitely one of the go-to everyone-likes-it basics.

Cheese - protein. Sure, with a lot of fat. Whether I'd "count" it depends on how much of it.  A sprinkle of grated parm on top of pasta = calorie dense flavoring.  Wisconsin cheddar beer soup, or fondue = protein, with a lot of fat.

 

This is more or less how I view the world, except I think I may be a bit of an outlier in that I view raw fruit in much the same category as vegetables, not some lesser also-ran.  Fruit is AWESOME. When the kids were little, I always put a pile of raw vegetables - cut up carrots, celery, broccoli, string beans, snap peas, red peppers, whatever was on hand -- so if they didn't like the cooked vegetable they could scarf up that.  More recently during COVID I've updated the same basic hack to fresh fruit. Tonight along with shepherd's pie, buttered noodles, and broccoli we had... canteloupe.  We ate the whole thing.

Fruit and veg are interchangeable in my mind for sure.  I keep at serving vegetables, but when I've had picky eaters I made sure they got the same vitamins from fruit.

[Drama Llama]

....

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey

[freesia]

18 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I wouldn’t split hairs over pizza night. Pizza is its own entity. We probably have it 3-4 times a month and don’t bother pretending it’s our best nutritional choice. I’ve got dough in the fridge right now. I do homemade crust, sauce from tomatoes I grew, and I do top with veggies, but pepperoni and sausage are very important to us. It’s a starchy, greasy, fatty miracle and we enjoy it for what it is. Unless they’re having a salad with it, pizza is kind of a nutritional freebie. I’d balance out the other nights before I’d try to make pizza night virtuous. 

This is us minus the veg on top (we do salad.)  And we do 2-3 times a month.  We don't have this one night and nachos or pasta the next.

[freesia]

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re agency vs directed management

Hmmm.

There is so much evident good faith in all of this. You obviously have an extraordinary extended family, with members in every direction going to immense lengths to support one another through your respective trials.  That is is GIFT, and that big picture matters more than any one detail.

I am confident you'll muddle through to some reasonable balance.

Part of the way that *I* would think my way through, if I were in your shoes, would be to consider the meal-to-meal dynamic as a sort of projection out from what look, from the bolded bits above, to be a difference in underlying principles about agency and choice. 

Your kids are older, and you and the GIL are adults; his are younger. You and your kids and presumably your GIL have long made autonomous choices about what foods to put on your plates/ take into your bodies; you have over time constructed a general culture and meal-specific habits of laying before them a more-or-less healthy set of options to choose from; and over time within that regimen your own (slightly older) kids have developed a pretty-wide palate, a pretty-good sense of nutritional principles, and pretty-good habits of basic manners towards the person making the effort to prepare their food.   And that's a lot.

Having lived that way for years, for you to suddenly start plopping portions onto their plates for them... well, a *lot* of older kids would be quite baffled by that; and I dare to say a good portion would be disinclined actually to eat what for whatever reason they didn't want to eat. As an adult, in any kind of home setting, that would be *quite weird* to me. What if I don't *like* the (forex) eggplant plonked on my plate?  Well: I wouldn't eat it, or much of it.

Which then brings us to the "eat everything on your plate" dynamic.  Or else you can't have dessert, or or else you're not excused from the table, or or else you're being rude to the cook and should apologize... or other. Many families do operate this way, in effect introducing an element of coercion into eating.  And it is a reasonable approach for young children (I'd argue it gets more controlling/more likely to backfire into unintended consequences as they age). 

But the thing is: parental willingness to use a degree of coercion (even soft coercion like dessert or manners guilt) to control what food goes into their kids' mouths in a particular meal is an expression of parental willingness to use coercion, generally.  And while reasonable people can disagree about cooked peas v raw snap beans v eggplant v is tomato sauce even a vegetable??!; all of those are all "little issues" that pale in comparison to the obvious good intrafamilial faith with which y'all are approaching the immense difficulties you're facing....

... and I'd be willing for the sake of shalom bayit  to work up a cycle of easy-to-plonk-on-the-table veggies and proteins (say: raw crudites, HB eggs, hummous) that they like and BIL "counts," from which they could take (or he could plonk on their plates, directively, if your main offerings failed to meet his not-always-evident-in-advance criteria of what "counts")...

... I would, myself, really have trouble if anyone suggested that *I* start plating *my own kids'* food. 

No. For me, concepts of agency and autonomy really are First Principles.  Guiding principles not just for food (which ultimately seems just a reflection, here, of other sources of light and heat), but of parenting itself, the individuation and separation that ultimately is the job of both parents and kids, of the development of autonomy and self.

It is OK that you and BIL have different concepts of agency and autonomy. To me, it would not be OK that his ask is, in essence, that his concept overrules yours.

As a general matter, I try (do not always succeed) to keep little things to little reactions; and to roll my eyes alone with my inside peeps rather than "air things out" with the wider circle. There are not too many areas where the considerable effort and vulnerability and risk of a deep dive discussion that gets down to a serious discussion of foundational values and how they manifest in surface-level habits and dynamics is warranted.

But you're living together, for a very extended time, in the throes of grief and COVID and illness and strain. I might pick this one.

 

Or crudites and hummous. All kids will eat raw crudites and hummous if they're hungry enough.

This is so wise.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

would have lost it at the "man of house" comment.  

I'd be very tempted to ask what role a penis plays in table manners!

[JennyD]

deleting because i didn't read the whole thread first 

Edited December 18, 2020 by JennyD

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

16 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re agency vs directed management

Hmmm.

There is so much evident good faith in all of this. You obviously have an extraordinary extended family, with members in every direction going to immense lengths to support one another through your respective trials.  That is is GIFT, and that big picture matters more than any one detail.

I am confident you'll muddle through to some reasonable balance.

Part of the way that *I* would think my way through, if I were in your shoes, would be to consider the meal-to-meal dynamic as a sort of projection out from what look, from the bolded bits above, to be a difference in underlying principles about agency and choice. 

Your kids are older, and you and the GIL are adults; his are younger. You and your kids and presumably your GIL have long made autonomous choices about what foods to put on your plates/ take into your bodies; you have over time constructed a general culture and meal-specific habits of laying before them a more-or-less healthy set of options to choose from; and over time within that regimen your own (slightly older) kids have developed a pretty-wide palate, a pretty-good sense of nutritional principles, and pretty-good habits of basic manners towards the person making the effort to prepare their food.   And that's a lot.

Having lived that way for years, for you to suddenly start plopping portions onto their plates for them... well, a *lot* of older kids would be quite baffled by that; and I dare to say a good portion would be disinclined actually to eat what for whatever reason they didn't want to eat. As an adult, in any kind of home setting, that would be *quite weird* to me. What if I don't *like* the (forex) eggplant plonked on my plate?  Well: I wouldn't eat it, or much of it.

Which then brings us to the "eat everything on your plate" dynamic.  Or else you can't have dessert, or or else you're not excused from the table, or or else you're being rude to the cook and should apologize... or other. Many families do operate this way, in effect introducing an element of coercion into eating.  And it is a reasonable approach for young children (I'd argue it gets more controlling/more likely to backfire into unintended consequences as they age). 

But the thing is: parental willingness to use a degree of coercion (even soft coercion like dessert or manners guilt) to control what food goes into their kids' mouths in a particular meal is an expression of parental willingness to use coercion, generally.  And while reasonable people can disagree about cooked peas v raw snap beans v eggplant v is tomato sauce even a vegetable??!; all of those are all "little issues" that pale in comparison to the obvious good intrafamilial faith with which y'all are approaching the immense difficulties you're facing....

... and I'd be willing for the sake of shalom bayit  to work up a cycle of easy-to-plonk-on-the-table veggies and proteins (say: raw crudites, HB eggs, hummous) that they like and BIL "counts," from which they could take (or he could plonk on their plates, directively, if your main offerings failed to meet his not-always-evident-in-advance criteria of what "counts")...

... I would, myself, really have trouble if anyone suggested that *I* start plating *my own kids'* food. 

No. For me, concepts of agency and autonomy really are First Principles.  Guiding principles not just for food (which ultimately seems just a reflection, here, of other sources of light and heat), but of parenting itself, the individuation and separation that ultimately is the job of both parents and kids, of the development of autonomy and self.

It is OK that you and BIL have different concepts of agency and autonomy. To me, it would not be OK that his ask is, in essence, that his concept overrules yours.

As a general matter, I try (do not always succeed) to keep little things to little reactions; and to roll my eyes alone with my inside peeps rather than "air things out" with the wider circle. There are not too many areas where the considerable effort and vulnerability and risk of a deep dive discussion that gets down to a serious discussion of foundational values and how they manifest in surface-level habits and dynamics is warranted.

But you're living together, for a very extended time, in the throes of grief and COVID and illness and strain. I might pick this one.

 

Or crudites and hummous. All kids will eat raw crudites and hummous if they're hungry enough.

Hands down most sensible thing in this thread!  

 

I found reading through this whole thread absolutely jaw dropping.  I can't believe nourishment has become such a reductionist task to so many people out there.  That OP has a BIL who has specific ideas about food is just one of those things.  We all have an in-law or two...  But the idea that SO MANY view foods in this deconstructiotnst way (outside of legitimate medical need) is shocking to me.  

The idea that it is somehow important to differentiate between fruits and vegetables.  All squash, peppers, cucumbers, zucchinis, avocados, tomatoes are botanically fruits.   What does this have to do with anything?  The colloquial use of fruit and vegetable has to do with flavor palate, not biology.  The idea that some vegetables "count" as "carb" and others do not... based I assume on nutrient to calorie density- this is an absurdity unless we are talking about very specific people with very specific medical problems-  not apparently healthy, growing children!  Tomato sauce is maybe a vegetable, unless there is sugar in it, then it's not a vegetable... what?  The idea that some things are "protein" in some contexts but "fat" in others, or that vegetarian protein sources are "half protein," when virtually every person without a feeding disorder in the US is getting loads more protein than nutrition guidelines even call for.  I could go on, but this is one of the rare threads where the Hive's response has outright surprised me.  

@BaseballandHockey, it sounds like you are making Herculean efforts to make healthy meals that tick everyone's boxes.  I'm really impressed with what you are doing and why.  I really hope you are able to use some of @Pam in CT's advice above.  You are right to give back to your family if you can, and she is right that this doesn't mean abandoning all of your personal boundaries in the name of harmony.  

 

 

[Hyacinth]

2 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

Hands down most sensible thing in this thread!  

 

I found reading through this whole thread absolutely jaw dropping.  I can't believe nourishment has become such a reductionist task to so many people out there.  That OP has a BIL who has specific ideas about food is just one of those things.  We all have an in-law or two...  But the idea that SO MANY view foods in this deconstructiotnst way (outside of legitimate medical need) is shocking to me.  

The idea that it is somehow important to differentiate between fruits and vegetables.  All squash, peppers, cucumbers, zucchinis, avocados, tomatoes are botanically fruits.   What does this have to do with anything?  The colloquial use of fruit and vegetable has to do with flavor palate, not biology.  The idea that some vegetables "count" as "carb" and others do not... based I assume on nutrient to calorie density- this is an absurdity unless we are talking about very specific people with very specific medical problems-  not apparently healthy, growing children!  Tomato sauce is maybe a vegetable, unless there is sugar in it, then it's not a vegetable... what?  The idea that some things are "protein" in some contexts but "fat" in others, or that vegetarian protein sources are "half protein," when virtually every person without a feeding disorder in the US is getting loads more protein than nutrition guidelines even call for.  I could go on, but this is one of the rare threads where the Hive's response has outright surprised me.  

@BaseballandHockey, it sounds like you are making Herculean efforts to make healthy meals that tick everyone's boxes.  I'm really impressed with what you are doing and why.  I really hope you are able to use some of @Pam in CT's advice above.  You are right to give back to your family if you can, and she is right that this doesn't mean abandoning all of your personal boundaries in the name of harmony.  

 

 

Yes to all of this, especially the last paragraph.

OP, I would be THRILLED to eat that dinner you prepared. So would my kids. 

 

[SKL]

15 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, to be clear, I'm feeding his kids in his house, not mine.  I'm responsible for dinner, but I'm not in any way preventing him from serving whatever he wants for breakfast, lunch, or snacks. 

If I was purchasing all the food, or feeding his kids all their meals, I would feel differently.  

OK, so maybe meal plan together weekly?  Like maybe he sends you an initial suggestion list and you refine it into what gets served when?  Just try not to take it personally when his ideas don't line up with yours.

[ktgrok]

Ok, can I come back and say I thought soy butter was like, non dairy butter substitute. I totally wasn't thinking of the peanut butter substitute! Yes, soy butter/nut butter are protein, lol. I was thinking of the "earth balance" stuff you would use to fry an egg in, not the stuff you make a sandwich with!

[Clemsondana]

This has been fascinating.  My kids are great eaters, but we eat very seasonally.  In the summer when the garden is coming in, we joke that our meals become 'What protein would you like with your summer squash and green beans?' because there are weeks when that is literally almost all we eat...the veggies are so good when they are fresh!  My kids often have fruit smoothies, so that's a lot of fruit, milk, and protein powder if they want it, all at once.  But, there are times when we are at the ball field all weekend and we have a hot dog for lunch and a hamburger for dinner - I try to pack some grapes, carrot or bell pepper sticks, oranges, or freeze-dried fruit to round things out.  Since that is usually in the summer, it seems an OK balance with the massive amount of squash and green beans we eat during the week.  

If I'm fixing a traditional meal, there is usually a meat, 1-2 fruits or veggies, and a starch (mostly to help fill the kids).  But, plenty of things are a meal in their own right - chili, with tomatoes and diced peppers, onions, and celery plus meat and beans, is a complete meal.  So is a bowl of beans and a piece of cornbread, or a BLT, or a grilled cheese sandwich with a bowl of tomato soup, or the veggie plate at a diner.  None of these meals would have everything, nutritionally, but balanced over a week, I don't worry about it.  But people can be...not completely rational in how they think about food.  I know somebody who complains about a relative's unhealthy burger-and-fries preferences...but they'd find meatloaf and mashed potatoes to be healthy.  Nutritionally, depending on how they are made...they literally have the same ingredients, with the substitution of cooking oil for the fries with butter in the potatoes.  

Good luck, OP...I don't have any advice for how to negotiate this, but putting out an assortment of things and letting the kids choose with a few guidelines has worked for us, too, and your belief that cheese and beans are protein and most plant things are fruits or veggies seems reasonable to me.  

[Danae]

Some people can’t handle moderation and balance with food.  My husband is one of them, and it’s so strange.  He’s diabetic, and much more of a morning person than me, so even though I do most of the cooking he makes his own breakfast.  The only way he can stay within a reasonable diabetic-friendly breakfast is if he eats the exact same thing every morning.  I’ve tried having options available, even sitting down with him and making a list of three breakfast options that we have all the components for, but if he has a choice he will choose from the list for a few days and then drift into making other things that don’t fit his dietary requirements. It’s like his brain hears that there’s a choice involved and thinks that means free-for-all.  I don’t get it, but he’s tried multiple things over the 15 years since his diagnoses and the only one that seems to work is the same meal every day, no choices. He has amazing willpower in sticking to that one meal, though.  I could never do it.

Perhaps your BIL knows he needs strong guardrails to make healthy food choices and has a hard time conceiving of other ways to make a balanced diet happen.

I think, though, that he’s going to have to get comfortable with “because that’s the rule in our family” if he wants to enforce his choices with his kids when you’re cooking.

[Kassia]

25 minutes ago, Danae said:

Some people can’t handle moderation and balance with food.  My husband is one of them, and it’s so strange.  He’s diabetic, and much more of a morning person than me, so even though I do most of the cooking he makes his own breakfast.  The only way he can stay within a reasonable diabetic-friendly breakfast is if he eats the exact same thing every morning.  I’ve tried having options available, even sitting down with him and making a list of three breakfast options that we have all the components for, but if he has a choice he will choose from the list for a few days and then drift into making other things that don’t fit his dietary requirements. It’s like his brain hears that there’s a choice involved and thinks that means free-for-all.  I don’t get it, but he’s tried multiple things over the 15 years since his diagnoses and the only one that seems to work is the same meal every day, no choices. He has amazing willpower in sticking to that one meal, though.  I could never do it.

 

Oh, this is me (but I'm not diabetic).  I have to eat the exact same thing every day.  If I can't, I am completely thrown off and don't know what to eat in place of my normal food so I just eat ALL the food.  I can't handle moderation either.  

[Drama Llama]

...

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey

[Drama Llama]

...

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey

[busymama7]

4 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, I got a little more sleep than usual last night, and woke up with a different perspective. 

Yesterday, I was really feeling like I was failing.  Like I couldn't even get dinner on the table that made everyone happy.  What kind of mother can't do that?  But today I woke up, and decided that grief and misplaced guilt were messing up my thinking.

Here's what I do:

I shop (online)

I prepare a meal for 12 people 

I take into account his children's life threatening food allergies

I take into account his picky kids

I take into the tastes of elderly family members

I take into account what his wife can handle while she's experiencing pregnancy related nausea

I cook from scratch, and include varied ingredients.

I drive the meal to his house.

I sit down with his small children and eat it with them while he's working.

I make sure that they eat, and that what they eat has some milk, and some protein and some plants.

I take him a plate at his desk

I do the dishes and clean the kitchen, or make my kids do it.  

 

I do this after a full day of homeschooling my own kids, working half time, and dealing will all sorts of other stuff that's going on in my family, that is at least as stressful as what they're dealing with. 

 

I think his response should stop at "thank you".  

 

For the record, here's what his kids have eaten for the past 5 meals with me.  Maybe it's more carbs than other people would serve, and the veggies aren't purple (there were purple berries in there on several days) or leafy, but I'm having trouble seeing it as a horrible diet for picky kids.  

 

Whole wheat spaghetti with homemade bolognese sauce made with vegetables and meat, peas, fruit and milk

Grilled chicken or salmon (they made different choices) with brown rice, peas, red peppers (one kid), fruit and milk

Scrambled eggs (they didn't like my Swedish meatballs) with egg noodles, carrots, fruit and milk

Quesadilla on whole wheat tortilla, black beans (one kid), red peppers (one kid), carrots (one kid), fruit and milk

Chicken noodle soup (home made with lots of chicken), peas, sweet potato latke (one kid)  apple sauce, yogurt, and milk

 

I feel like if I was pregnant and nauseous, and someone came to my house, and did that for my kids while my husband was at work, he wouldn't complain. 

 

Sorry, this is a total vent, and I'm going to delete it eventually because I'd hate for them to see it.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. 

 

You aren't wrong. At all.  He sounds like he has some control issues or is just extra stressed with all that is going on in their life.  I would probably ignore the complaining if that is possible.  

[Danae]

11 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, I got a little more sleep than usual last night, and woke up with a different perspective. 

Yesterday, I was really feeling like I was failing.  Like I couldn't even get dinner on the table that made everyone happy.  What kind of mother can't do that?  But today I woke up, and decided that grief and misplaced guilt were messing up my thinking.

Here's what I do:

I shop (online)

I prepare a meal for 12 people 

I take into account his children's life threatening food allergies

I take into account his picky kids

I take into the tastes of elderly family members

I take into account what his wife can handle while she's experiencing pregnancy related nausea

I cook from scratch, and include varied ingredients.

I drive the meal to his house.

I sit down with his small children and eat it with them while he's working.

I make sure that they eat, and that what they eat has some milk, and some protein and some plants.

I take him a plate at his desk

I do the dishes and clean the kitchen, or make my kids do it.  

 

I do this after a full day of homeschooling my own kids, working half time, and dealing will all sorts of other stuff that's going on in my family, that is at least as stressful as what they're dealing with. 

 

I think his response should stop at "thank you".  

 

For the record, here's what his kids have eaten for the past 5 meals with me.  Maybe it's more carbs than other people would serve, and the veggies aren't purple (there were purple berries in there on several days) or leafy, but I'm having trouble seeing it as a horrible diet for picky kids.  

 

Whole wheat spaghetti with homemade bolognese sauce made with vegetables and meat, peas, fruit and milk

Grilled chicken or salmon (they made different choices) with brown rice, peas, red peppers (one kid), fruit and milk

Scrambled eggs (they didn't like my Swedish meatballs) with egg noodles, carrots, fruit and milk

Quesadilla on whole wheat tortilla, black beans (one kid), red peppers (one kid), carrots (one kid), fruit and milk

Chicken noodle soup (home made with lots of chicken), peas, sweet potato latke (one kid)  apple sauce, yogurt, and milk

 

I feel like if I was pregnant and nauseous, and someone came to my house, and did that for my kids while my husband was at work, he wouldn't complain. 

 

Sorry, this is a total vent, and I'm going to delete it eventually because I'd hate for them to see it.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. 

 

You aren't even a little bit wrong.

[Drama Llama]

...

Edited December 19, 2020 by BaseballandHockey