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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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9 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Maybe strong enough for Alpha. Strong enough for Delta?? I don't know.

Oh, that actually makes me feel a little better. So there is not actually a wearing-off effect, but rather just less efficacy against Delta? I know that Delta is a game-changer; I just hope that my February Pfizer is not significantly less effective than if I had had it in, say, April or May. Any studies on this? @Not_a_Number?

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9 minutes ago, Longtime Lurker said:

Oh, that actually makes me feel a little better. So there is not actually a wearing-off effect, but rather just less efficacy against Delta? I know that Delta is a game-changer; I just hope that my February Pfizer is not significantly less effective than if I had had it in, say, April or May. Any studies on this? @Not_a_Number?

There seems to be both a wearing-off effect and issues with Delta. I actually had the impression the wearing-off effect was possibly a bigger issue, although it’s EXTREMELY hard to disentangle, due to the timing coincidence.

In Israel, there’s also the confounding effect of the fact that the oldest people got the vaccine first. 

All that being said, the vaccine seems to still be quite protective against severe cases. So I would assume you’re still protected!!

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11 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Then why is it hard to understand that people are not worried about it?

Because, while we can all understand not necessarily being worried for ourselves, some of us have a hard time with understanding not worrying about getting someone who is vulnerable sick. I get that some people haven’t seen anyone really sick with Covid but some of us have. It is a truth that if you are sick you may pass it on. Why don’t you come to work with me for a shift or two? Might change your perspective slightly. I know and see tons of people who have very mild symptoms, but I also know and see many who don’t. This whole thing is not just about you (general you) as an individual, but also you as part of a community, unless you’re a hermit.

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13 hours ago, madteaparty said:

Chances were overwhelmingly high that I would have been fine before, before being vaccinated. Just going by everyone I’m related to that has passed it just fine (parents, sister, etc).What I’m reading is that Delta symptoms are very mild. I suppose I might get it because of all the airports and planes and places I’ve been on it will be horrid, but that’s fine 🤷‍♀️

Maybe this is the disconnect you're having?  Delta symptoms are NOT very mild for the unvaccinated, but for for the vaccinated.  There have been multiple news reports that not only is Delta hugely more transimissible, but also more virulent to the unvaccinated.   Yes, there's still a huge number of even unvaxed people who get it who don't die or become hospitalized, bu that percentage with Delta is not smaller, but at least the same and likely larger.  The reports you're seeing about most people having mild symptoms apply to the people who get it even though they're vaccinated.  And if you're vaxed, you're still much less likely to get it or pass it on than if you're unvaxed.  Yeah, the numbers aren't as good as before Delta.  But without the vax, this new strain is so contaigous that it hits almost everyone that isn't already immune, which was not the case with the earlier strain.

Edited by Matryoshka
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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

There seems to be both a wearing-off effect and issues with Delta. I actually had the impression the wearing-off effect was possibly a bigger issue, although it’s EXTREMELY hard to disentangle, due to the timing coincidence.

In Israel, there’s also the confounding effect of the fact that the oldest people got the vaccine first. 

All that being said, the vaccine seems to still be quite protective against severe cases. So I would assume you’re still protected!!

Thanks! I am ready for a booster any time 🙂 The Delta and potential wearing-off timing is so frustrating with school starting back up in three weeks. I worked in person all of last year (except for when we closed between Thanksgiving and Christmas), but masks were required (and enforced) for everyone. In early July, our superintendent sent out an email that masks are optional this year. I hope that will change after the new CDC and AAP recommendations, but I'm not holding my breath. Or maybe I should, actually 🙂

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21 minutes ago, TCB said:

Because, while we can all understand not necessarily being worried for ourselves, some of us have a hard time with understanding not worrying about getting someone who is vulnerable sick. I get that some people haven’t seen anyone really sick with Covid but some of us have. It is a truth that if you are sick you may pass it on. Why don’t you come to work with me for a shift or two? Might change your perspective slightly. I know and see tons of people who have very mild symptoms, but I also know and see many who don’t. This whole thing is not just about you (general you) as an individual, but also you as part of a community, unless you’re a hermit.

This pandemic must be deeply, deeply dispiriting as a healthcare worker. Thank you so much for all that you do; I hope you know that many people are deeply appreciative. 

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18 minutes ago, Longtime Lurker said:

Thanks! I am ready for a booster any time 🙂 The Delta and potential wearing-off timing is so frustrating with school starting back up in three weeks. I worked in person all of last year (except for when we closed between Thanksgiving and Christmas), but masks were required (and enforced) for everyone. In early July, our superintendent sent out an email that masks are optional this year. I hope that will change after the new CDC and AAP recommendations, but I'm not holding my breath. Or maybe I should, actually 🙂

I'm pretty ready for a booster myself! 

And yeah, it's very frustrating with everything starting up again. We had actually tentatively signed up for a few indoor things for the fall -- we felt pretty comfortable with cases being low. And now we're going to have to pull out of them again 😞 . It sucks. 

And DH has to teach in person, argh. Although I think masks will, at least, be required. 

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

This pandemic must be deeply, deeply dispiriting as a healthcare worker. Thank you so much for all that you do; I hope you know that many people are deeply appreciative. 

Thank you I really do appreciate you saying that.

I’m trying not to come on here too much and go on about it, but it is striking how differently groups of us are experiencing this pandemic. I think that’s what leads to some of the misunderstandings. 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

It depends on how you define a huge risk. In my opinion, all of us on this board have a huge risk of going into the hospital, because I think of a 2-3% chance of getting hospitalized as a giant and unacceptable risk.

You believe that all unvaccinated people have a 2-3% risk of being hospitalized due to serious Covid symptoms?  Where do you get that from?

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, that's definitely my stance on most medicines that might potentially protect me and have positive effects. I'd only avoid them if I were worried about either a short-term or a long-term reaction. 

I'd apply that to all sorts of medications. I mean, I occasionally take antivirals for cold sores, and those only have small a potential positive reaction compared with the possibility of seriously reducing my chance of going to the hospital. 

I'm still not getting it, but that's OK, I guess 🙂 . I was just wondering if there's something special about these vaccines in particular where one would avoid them specifically. 

Not sure about MT's reasons, but many people don't believe in putting unnecessary chemicals into their bodies.  Also, the idea that some people are getting extremely rich off of these vaccines brings up possible conflicts of interest.  I personally do believe it is life-saving for some people, but I also wonder about the obvious financial disincentive to research and target vaxes to those most at risk, vs. injecting every person as early and often as possible.

[Obligatory disclaimer:  I got the vax and I'm not quite sorry I did, because my reason was to protect those at risk who aren't vaxing.  But I am disappointed that it hasn't really changed my life much.]

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1 hour ago, TCB said:

Because, while we can all understand not necessarily being worried for ourselves, some of us have a hard time with understanding not worrying about getting someone who is vulnerable sick. I get that some people haven’t seen anyone really sick with Covid but some of us have. It is a truth that if you are sick you may pass it on. Why don’t you come to work with me for a shift or two? Might change your perspective slightly. I know and see tons of people who have very mild symptoms, but I also know and see many who don’t. This whole thing is not just about you (general you) as an individual, but also you as part of a community, unless you’re a hermit.

I understand the toll on healthcare workers. Maybe it sounds like I am the one holding all of these views. I have mostly been sharing what I hear/feel is going on  in my circle. I stopped going to church because the pastor announced he was positive on an afternoon when I'd seen him walking around the lake with a group of men that morning, maskless. That means he was waiting on results. At least 6 elderly people died from our church.😔

At the same time, I absolutely hold valuable an individual's choice to make medical decisions for themselves.  Some people don't want to get on a yearly shot train, some are "following the science" of natural immunity. Some wanted to see how it worked with variants. Sine Some see that the vaccine is not holding immunity. Some looked at the lotteries, bribes, etc. and questioned it. Some can't afford the time off. Some just don't want it. Some saw everyone they know have a "cold" and they think the very low risk is worth it. Some think there is a microchip(I know one person who does).  Some just don't want it. And probably a million other reasons. 

At the end of the day, not everyone is going to get vaccinated. This time next year, the ones who don't get the booster will be on the shamed list.

Forgot to add this.

blaming, shaming, name calling may be doing a lot more harm than good, though I don't have a study. 🙃

 

Edited by AbcdeDooDah
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5 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

At the same time, I absolutely hold valuable an individual's choice to make medical decisions for themselves. 

I think it’s totally possible to think that this is an incredibly valuable right and also feel chagrined at the way people are using it.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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On 7/26/2021 at 5:07 AM, calbear said:

Good overview from Dr. Campbell about vaccine longevity from Israeli study and what they know in the UK. Breaks down infection, severe illness and hospitalization.
 

 

Yes a good review.  From what we are seeing in Australia the Delta variant behaves very differently from the previous variants, and much of what Dr Campbell says needs to be broken down into the various variants, which to be fair to Dr Campbell, hasn't yet been addressed in new research.

By far the biggest change is that our children (and I mean less than 12 yo) are catching it and becoming seriously ill with Delta.  In one outbreak, 10 out of 14 new cases were in children and it is suddenly exploding in schools.  This is new in Aus.

In most states the response has been an immediate and severe lockdown, and that has stopped its progress.  But in our most populated state, politics has interfered, and more emphasis was placed on "gold-plated" contact tracing.  Well, this has failed to stop the spread in that state.  The states that locked down immediately and hard, saw about a max of 10 new cases a day, whilst the recalcitrant state now has had >200 new cases every day and increasing.  Lockdowns cause lots of pain and hardship, but humans learned 100s, perhaps 1000s of years ago that quarantine works.

The source of the virus, China, since the Wuhan outbreak, has suppressed the virus extremely effectively via sometimes brutal lockdown.

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11 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Blaming, shaming, name calling may be doing a lot more harm than good, though I don't have a study. 🙃

 

Is anyone actually doing that, though? I think "venting on a forum of like-minded people" is not the same thing as "shaming people in real life"? 

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13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it’s totally possible to think that this is an incredibly valuable right and also feel chagrined at the way people are using it.

Yes. I am mad, though they have the right to behave this way. But it can still make me mad.

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12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is anyone actually doing that, though? I think "venting on a forum of like-minded people" is not the same thing as "shaming people in real life"? 

I think the majority of people who don't think the same way have decided to be silent thus turning certain threads & the Chat board as a whole into an "echo chamber." When the not-like-minded people speak up, there is some piling on.

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7 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I think the majority of people who don't think the same way have decided to be silent thus turning certain threads & the Chat board as a whole into an "echo chamber." When the not-like-minded people speak up, there is some piling on.

Well, yes, I believe that. That generally does happen when there's a majority of vocal people. I've certainly been on the receiving end of that, and I don't enjoy that, either. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure what one can ask for other than general politeness. I'm always mindful of the fact that it's really not fun to be in the minority point of view, and I try to hear people out. But at the end of the day, I agree with the currently dominant voices, and I can't change that. 

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17 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I understand the toll on healthcare workers. Maybe it sounds like I am the one holding all of these views. I have mostly been sharing what I hear/feel is going on  in my circle. I stopped going to church because the pastor announced he was positive on an afternoon when I'd seen him walking around the lake with a group of men that morning, maskless. That means he was waiting on results. At least 6 elderly people died from our church.😔

At the same time, I absolutely hold valuable an individual's choice to make medical decisions for themselves.  Some people don't want to get on a yearly shot train, some are "following the science" of natural immunity. Some wanted to see how it worked with variants. Sine Some see that the vaccine is not holding immunity. Some looked at the lotteries, bribes, etc. and questioned it. Some can't afford the time off. Some just don't want it. Some saw everyone they know have a "cold" and they think the very low risk is worth it. Some think there is a microchip(I know one person who does).  Some just don't want it. And probably a million other reasons. 

At the end of the day, not everyone is going to get vaccinated. This time next year, the ones who don't get the booster will be on the shamed list.

 

I’m sorry your church lost so many. I’m not going to the church I used to go to because of very similar experiences to yours.

I would very much like people to get vaccinated because I can see how good it is at keeping them out of ICU, but I don’t think a general mandate would work, as those who oppose it now would probably find that even more suspicious and troubling. My personal experience here is that the same people saying they will never get vaccinated, are the ones not being careful of others, and they have never taken those precautions, so I definitely admit to feeling angry about that. I find it much easier to understand people who are nervous, but who are open to learning more about it. My SIL was nervous, asked for information about the vaccines, and finally, to my great relief, got her first shot a couple of weeks ago. She was always very careful towards people around her.

I don’t know what the answer is. I wish someone would figure it out and let us all know.

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8 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I think the majority of people who don't think the same way have decided to be silent thus turning certain threads & the Chat board as a whole into an "echo chamber." When the not-like-minded people speak up, there is some piling on.

I got pushback months ago here when it was said the vaccine prevents spread, based on 1 small study and I said we don't actually know that yet.

 

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Just now, AbcdeDooDah said:

I got pushback months ago here when it was said the vaccine prevents spread, based on 1 small study and I said we don't actually know that yet.

I think it's pretty clear that it was doing a good job of preventing spread with other variants -- not due to one small study, but just due to basically all the observations I've seen. 

It's obviously still decreasing spread with Delta, but it's no longer preventing it. 

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25 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is anyone actually doing that, though? I think "venting on a forum of like-minded people" is not the same thing as "shaming people in real life"? 

I was responding specifically to your comment above.

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, yes, I believe that. That generally does happen when there's a majority of vocal people. I've certainly been on the receiving end of that, and I don't enjoy that, either. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure what one can ask for other than general politeness.

I do think there is a lack of general politeness (not by everyone, not by you usually, but certainly by enough people) toward questioning the prevailing viewpoint held by the most vocal posters at the current time.

Shaming, name-calling, and blaming have all happened on this board on this topic (but maybe not in this thread).

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41 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is anyone actually doing that, though? I think "venting on a forum of like-minded people" is not the same thing as "shaming people in real life"? 

Not to state the obvious, but the people on this forum are people in real life.

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7 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

In one of the threads, someone questioned whether another poster had Covid because a low IQ was a side effect. I'm the only one who called it out.

That was super rude. Agree with you there. 

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20 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

In one of the threads, someone questioned whether another poster had Covid because a low IQ was a side effect. I'm the only one who called it out.

Ugh. I'm sorry. That's not in any way acceptable. 

I try not to say things like that, but it's true that my patience is not at its highest ebb right this moment. I'm really tired. I was hoping to have the whole summer be relatively easy, and it won't be. We're losing things yet again, and I yet again don't see an easy way out right now (although I feel much more optimistic about what'll happen after half a year.) 

I should do a better job both making sure not to be rude and calling out rudeness. Pile-ons aren't useful. 

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It is and has been known for a while now to prevent infection in a significant percentage of people, different percentages depending on setting and variant, but even the gloomy studies show it preventing infection in a significant percentage. 

If you are not infected, you can’t spread it. 

Therefore, it does prevent spread, to a significant extent. 

Edited by ktgrok
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I just read that 70% of the adults in the US have gotten at least one dose of the Covid Vaccine.  

U.S. hits 70 percent Covid vaccination goal — a month later than Biden had hoped to (msn.com)

As of Monday, more than 180.7 million Americans 18 years or older, or 70 percent, have received at least one dose of a Covid-19 vaccine, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

For those 12 years or older, that percentage is 67.6 percent. Children younger than that are not eligible for the vaccination. A Food and Drug Administration official has said that emergency use authorization for younger children could come by early to mid-winter.

Edited by mommyoffive
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I saw this from Kaiser Family Foundation with data about breakthrough cases. It's more breakthrough data than I've seen In one place. COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States.

One caveat I noticed with the data, is that cases with unknown status are not listed out separately, but instead grouped with not fully vaccinated. I would like to see the unknowns in their own category, because I don't know how much of the data fall in that category.

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8 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

I just read that 70% of the adults in the US have gotten at least one dose of the Covid Vaccine.  

U.S. hits 70 percent Covid vaccination goal — a month later than Biden had hoped to (msn.com)

As of Monday, more than 180.7 million Americans 18 years or older, or 70 percent, have received at least one dose of a Covid-19 vaccine, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

For those 12 years or older, that percentage is 67.6 percent. Children younger than that are not eligible for the vaccination. A Food and Drug Administration official has said that emergency use authorization for younger children could come by early to mid-winter.

I am questioning that. I guess the differences are very wide for different regions. For the two counties my town straddles, we have 37% and 30% vaccinated.

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@KSera that info from the states is helpful in visualizing it.  I noticed Arizona and Alaska have a considerably higher percentage of the vaccinated getting infected.  I wonder if this is due to regional difference in uptake of J&J vs mrna.  I wish they would separate that too. 

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4 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I am questioning that. I guess the differences are very wide for different regions. For the two counties my town straddles, we have 37% and 30% vaccinated.

Yes, it makes me curious too. There are many areas at 30-40% and and that means there must be areas well over 70% to even out. I realize the cities also have larger populations which might account for some of it but I have looked at Chicago's rates and it is at 62% for one dose only. Then I had to look at some other major cities but I'm not seeing this kind of Vax rate outside of New York.

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4 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I am questioning that. I guess the differences are very wide for different regions. For the two counties my town straddles, we have 37% and 30% vaccinated.

The variation between different regions is HUGE. Another issue is that people quote total population rates and adult rates without distinguishing very well between them. The 70% figure is only for people over 18 (so not even teens who are eligible for vaccines), but you'll see the rate for the total population frequently, too, which obviously is much lower.

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4 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

@KSera that info from the states is helpful in visualizing it.  I noticed Arizona and Alaska have a considerably higher percentage of the vaccinated getting infected.  I wonder if this is due to regional difference in uptake of J&J vs mrna.  I wish they would separate that too. 

My guess is that there is more testing going on in Alaska and we are catching more asymptomatic cases. I read that most of our breakthrough cases were asymptomatic or very mild. My daughter has been tested multiple times for various reasons despite being vaccinated. My friend tests every time he steps on a plane to the bush and he works out there quite often. He will know if he ends up a breakthrough case even if he doesn't show symptoms. I doubt that is true for the majority of Americans.

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5 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I am questioning that. I guess the differences are very wide for different regions. For the two counties my town straddles, we have 37% and 30% vaccinated.

 

27 minutes ago, frogger said:

Yes, it makes me curious too. There are many areas at 30-40% and and that means there must be areas well over 70% to even out. I realize the cities also have larger populations which might account for some of it but I have looked at Chicago's rates and it is at 62% for one dose only. Then I had to look at some other major cities but I'm not seeing this kind of Vax rate outside of New York.

 

Seattle (King County) and Portland (Multnomah County) are at 78% and 76% — and that's fully vaxed, not just one dose, so the one-dose rate is probably a few points higher. Most of the counties in the CA Bay Area are in the 70s or 80s; ditto many counties in the northeast.

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6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 

 

Seattle (King County) and Portland (Multnomah County) are at 78% and 76% — and that's fully vaxed, not just one dose, so the one-dose rate is probably a few points higher. Most of the counties in the CA Bay Area are in the 70s or 80s; ditto many counties in the northeast.

Well, Kokotg reminded me to watch for the 18+ label versus the any age label. That was my problem. I will blame responding pre coffee on not watching my labels. 😁

Edited by frogger
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NYC will require vaccination proof for indoor dining, gyms (msn.com)

 

Hoping others follow their lead.   Love it.

The ballet school my kids go to are doing this for a show that they are putting on.  Everyone 12 and up has to be vaccinated and show their card.  Plus masking for everyone.  Social distance.  Different casts so they are their own pods.  

Edited by mommyoffive
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12 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

NYC will require vaccination proof for indoor dining, gyms (msn.com)

 

Hoping others follow their lead.   Love it.

The ballet school my kids go to are doing this for a show that they are putting on.  Everyone 12 and up has to be vaccinated and show their card.  Plus masking for everyone.  Social distance.  Different casts so they are their own pods.  

Oh, thank goodness. Of course, this is going to create a THRIVING market in fake vaccination cards 😉 . I better get mine laminated... 

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Does anyone know how hard it is to get a replacement card? I suspect people will lose them if they have to carry them for long. We made copies, but I don't know if that would pass muster in places that are requiring them. 

I wonder if gyms will do something like check your card once and put you in a database? I'm thinking of places like the Y where they scan your card when you come in--will they just flag your membership, or will you have to show the card every time?

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10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Does anyone know how hard it is to get a replacement card? I suspect people will lose them if they have to carry them for long. We made copies, but I don't know if that would pass muster in places that are requiring them. 

I wonder if gyms will do something like check your card once and put you in a database? I'm thinking of places like the Y where they scan your card when you come in--will they just flag your membership, or will you have to show the card every time?

I think I got an email from Walmart if you got it there you could get a digital copy.

Oh also I went and took my kids to their well child apts and they give a print out of their vaccine history every apt (also it is in their digital system) and it had their Covid 19 vaccines in there so it was already linked back to them.  Although my kids got their shots at 2 different locations.  One a grocery store pharmacy and the other the county.

 

Walmart Provides Digital COVID-19 Vaccine Record

Edited by mommyoffive
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23 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I think the majority of people who don't think the same way have decided to be silent thus turning certain threads & the Chat board as a whole into an "echo chamber." When the not-like-minded people speak up, there is some piling on.

I completely agree with this. A few times I've started to type up why I have not, nor plan on getting the vaccine. Then I erase it because I'm apparently an uneducated, conspiracy theorist. Oh, I almost forget, I'm also more than likely a Trump loving conservative. 🙄

On 8/2/2021 at 7:44 AM, TexasProud said:

Yeah, this confuses me. If it won't hurt me and protects others and keeps them from dying, then to me, it is morally wrong not to get it.

How do you/I know that it won't hurt me? It has not been approved by the FDA. It has not completed safety trials. Currently, there is only a EUA for use. There is no long term data showing that it is safe.

Most people I know have received the vaccine. Most haven't had reactions. However, my MIL received it and is now being treated for multiple blood clots. My mom's boyfriend got it and had a blood clot in his lung. Was it the vaccine? According to doctors they don't know what caused it, but it was absolutely not because of the vaccine.

One of my good friends lost her mom to Covid. She was in the hospital, on her deathbed. My friend, and her family, are very much listen to what the 'experts' tell her and follow it. I sent her multiple studies showing success rates of using Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid. She begged the doctors to give her mom Ivermectin. The hospital refused saying it wasn't an approved treatment. They knew she wasn't going to make it. They told the family to say goodbye and yet they still wouldn't give it to her.

In order to receive EUA for the vaccine there can't be a successful treatment of Covid. Hence, shutting down all talk of treatments. I struggle to believe that Pfizer, who is expecting over a $30 billion profit this year from the Covid vaccine alone, has my best interest (or yours) at heart. If that makes me a conspiracy theorist, I'll wear my tin foil hat proudly.

Scientists and doctors that have spoken out against the status quo have been condemned and silenced. Studies that go against status status quo have been buried. A differing opinion is labeled misinformation. Articles and studies that  used to be easily available on google are gone. I now have to use duck duck go to find them. It is because of this that my trust in both our medical system and government is gone. Until I can review the completed safety data myself they will have to chase me, hold me down, and forcible inject the vaccine in my arm.

I will gladly provide the data that I have used to reach my decision if anyone is truly interested. However, if you just want me to provide it to convince yourself what an 'idiot' I am please save me time having to find it again and just get on with the name calling and finger pointing.

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think we better make scanned copies of our cards, and then laminate them for protection. Yikes. I totally forgot to do that! Evening project on the list.

I did this for ours, as well as took a photo on my phone. L's are on the vaccine record as well (or, at least, were when we got a copy to send to the college)

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