Vent over major issues, people who don't get it, and my son

[Janeway]

I get it. If you are either uber wealthy or you are simply deciding between something like political science or  economics or English, then you can just start college and figure it out after a year or so. Heck, if it is just between an engineering degree and econ, you could actually just start with engineering and if that does not work out, then switch to econ. And if you are from a wealthy family and have no clue what you plan to do, you can just start taking whatever, have fun in college, party, and after a few years, figure out what you want to do and start working toward that degree. But if you have no clue between computer science, accounting, Latin, math, political science, or music, and you don't have an endless source of money to fund school, then starting school is a harsh thing. I mean, let's say you start as a poli sci major and then say, by mid Sophomore year, you realize music was the way to go, you need to start auditioning for programs and then start completely over. Or let's say you did do the whole audition thing, or just went to a school that did not require auditions to do music and you get to mid sophomore year and you think, gee, I would like to do computer science, then you start over for that. The core classes are not even the same anywhere for a BS in computer science, a BFA in music, a BS in math, a BBA in accounting, or a BA in econ, political science, English. 

When I ask my son what he would like to do, he says maybe accounting, maybe music, maybe writing, maybe math, maybe even political science or Latin education. He needs financial aid so the fact that he has been offered scholarships everywhere is a need for him. But the scholarships are for four years, not six or seven, or eight. If he is not done in four years, he is done anyway. Public schools don't give financial aid or scholarships and private schools are too expensive to continue when the four year scholarship is done. 

When I try to talk to my son about ways for him to figure out what might interest him, he does not seem interested in anything I say. He says he hates doing anything virtual. He says unless he can go to the colleges in person and speak to the people in person, he just won't bother. In fact, I wonder how college would even work out. Don't colleges require a lot of "google doc" and stuff like that these days? He says he hates doing anything on the computer (seems not opposed to Minecraft or music composing on the computer). I feel so very frustrated. And I do not want to put down a deposit on a school with the idea that maybe in a year, he will decide to come around. He has scholarships and financial aid packages in hand now. I do not have a problem with him giving it time and doing a gap year, but he insists he wants to go to college.  Plus, when I ask him what his next move is, what he is thinking of doing next, he has no answers. He has no idea what else he wants to do. Also, he has no idea what the schools he has applied to have to offer and will not attend any virtual sessions at all. 

I really hate all this. Is it always this hard? Is this just my child?

[Janeway]

17 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Have you tried some non college goal planning?   Like, does he imagine his life like in 10 yrs?   In 5 yrs?   Does he want to have a house, family?   Or does he want to be traveling on a whim?   Does he imagine sitting at his house plunking away in the computer for a few hours a day, or going to work, coming home and setting up a family movie night?

if you can work with him on what he imagines his life might look like, then perhaps you can kind of back into a more narrow selection of choices.  

I have. He had been set up to job shadow a librarian but then that got cancelled. 

[Paige]

It sounds like he needs a gap year of some kind. I wouldn't send him to college. My parents wasted $$$ on my brilliant but unmotivated brother who had no idea what he wanted to do other than party and ended up failing out after a year with bad grades the 1st semester too. 

College is too expensive for me to let a kid use it to find himself. I get that it works for other families, but it's a gamble and I don't have money to lose.

FWIW, my brother paid his own way through college years later (maybe 10 yrs) and has done well. He needed time. 

Eta: I see where you say he doesn't want a gap year, but for me, it wouldn't be all up to him. He's welcome to get motivated, find an interest, and get the money, but as long as I saw no change, I wouldn't be paying. We have 4 other kids to pay for too. I'm right there with my 18yr old so it's not just hypothetical. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Paige

[Hilltopmom]

Start at community college taking his gen Ed’s and living at home.

[JenneinCA]

My kids did their time at the local community college until they knew what they wanted to major in and were ready to put in the effort to get there.  My daughter has told her profs at the four year school she was at that “Mom said I could figure out what I wanted to do at $50 a credit hour and living at home.  She wasn’t paying big money to be on the wrong road.”    So far every one of them has said it was a good idea.

My son knew what he wanted to do so that wasn’t a issue.  He was just young and did his time at the community college too.  

[daijobu]

Some thoughts:  

"BS in computer science, a BFA in music, a BS in math, a BBA in accounting, or a BA in econ, political science, English."

There are a number of majors I wish I had studied in college.  But you gotta pick one and just be zen with that.  There's no reason he can't study English and then work as a musician.  Or study music and be an English teacher.    Or major in accounting while taking a few CS courses on the side. 

Heck, he can major in accounting, join a band and do weekend gigs, take a CS class in the summer, and after he graduates and is gainfully employed he can indulge in some Jane Austen during his commute.  He doesn't need to pick his favorite activity and major in it.  If you try to do that, you will ultimately regret your choice (grass is always greener).  

I think it's also difficult to to think now as a teenager what kind of life you want to live in 10 years.  How many people do you know who want to "travel the world" and then later decide what they really want is a big family farm in Minnesota?  I think his goal is to choose one thing (albeit among many for him) that he does like and is reasonably good at.  It may end up not being his favorite thing after all, but who cares.  Just get really good at it during your 4 years and really explore that field.  When you graduate you can change your field believe it or not.  Strive for excellence in whatever you choose.  

It's hard, but I think it's too much pressure to ask him how he envisions his life in the future or what he wants to major in.  OTOH, for kids like him a gap year may give him time to focus his interests.  I'm wondering if the schools will be willing to put him in touch with graduating seniors in those departments so he can see how happy they are?  It's tough and you have my sympathy.  

[Miguelsmom]

I ask what do you want to do first? If you made $200/day what would you do as a job? Tell me about your life when your 25? When my son first had no idea what he wanted to do we looked at the top paying AS degrees cross referenced them with what our local school had and picked one that combined art and computer. Check but I think if he goes to a trade school for a year he's still a first time in college. Our trade school has programming, and accounting. Our local college has music production certification. Can you pay out of pocket for either of those? You also have some options at job corp  I would  do a gap year in a trade. He'll be in a classroom with people he can investigate what he likes only use a computer when necessary. usually it's a couple of hours a day the rest of his time he can investigate what job(s) he wants. I spent a lot of time explaining the difference between a hobby and career. It's excellent your son has so many interests. Take a look at his interests as a whole and evaluate them as far as a career would go, 

• Example: My son likes writing, computers, art, puzzles, helping, teaching, video games, Dislikes but is good at math.
  • Hobbies: Game jams, RPG game master, modding, Computer art, instructional book writer
  • Job: Programmer, Teacher, Text book writer, manager
  • Current Degree path Programming certificate (+2 classes), Web development AS, Mathematics AA (+3 classes), software development BAS, Computer science MS.
    • +5 extra classes gets an extra degree and certificate
  • Hobby fixes: Art classes at community art center, Game jams, Writing clubs, RPG games

There is also the option of an INTERDISCIPLINARY STUDIES DEGREE if he can think of a career that will use most of the skills he wants to learn. It's not uncommon to want to change your major after you have great, passionate teachers or some that suck but having the student realize that it was the quality of the teacher not the material is key. I also had my son take all the core classes before the GE when he could to keep him excited and in his major.

ETA: My local public college has several scholarships that pay tuition, & books. They also have an honors college. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Miguelsmom

[easypeasy]

I empathize with you. Greatly. My oldest is a jack-of-all-trades. Unlike your ds, she was interested in ALL the things. But few of the things clicked together in any logical, transferable way! In the end, she switched majors at the beginning of her junior year and has had to work her backside off to flop across the finish line with a desperate, last breath.

It is SO much easier with kids #2 & #3 who have very clear ideas of what degrees they want and what they want to do with their lives (of course, C-19 is sure throwing THOSE plans out a window, but we'll worry about that later!).

I couldn't talk to anyone I know personally about DDs struggles because they all have more $$ than we do and it was just a "brush off" sort of conversation. Told me I worried too much, "it'll be fiiiiiine." Made a stressful situation even more stressful! 😕

With that said, though, DD has made it through even though she took the Rough Path to do it! 🙂

Happysmileylady's questions are great! It was that kind of thinking, in fact, that made DD finally have the gumption to change her major. She decided that she did not, in fact, want to still be going to school for another additional however-many years to achieve her original goals. Plan B finished at an undergraduate level and she says she just wants to work for a few years before deciding if she ever wants to go back to school. Shocking - because this was my most academic homeschooled child. The other two will - guaranteed - get master's degrees at the least. Funny how life works out. College burned DD1 OUT & we're just taking the victory that she finished! 🙂  I hope that, maybe, when she has a family of her own she'll go back to school and get a degree in something the Grown-Up version of herself is passionate about.

Best of luck to you with your DS. ♥

[klmama]

Janeway, is there a particular job you think he would be especially good at because of his personality?  Even if it's not something that appears to be related to his current interests?  People generally come hard-wired, and it pays to work with that instead of against it.  There's often a way to incorporate interests.

He's probably a bit overwhelmed by the enormity of the college major decision, and he may need some extra help with this.  It's not uncommon at all.  Even if he won't look at the Occupational Outlook Handbook for the education requirements, job market, and pay range for the different fields he's interested in (or that you think he'd be good at), it may be wise for you to do the research yourself and to tell him about it.  The website has a summary page for each job field, but there's more detailed info if you click the various tabs.  

"Oh, interesting.  It says here that political science jobs often require a masters or a PhD.  We can help pay for an undergrad degree, but you're on your own for graduate school and would have to take out loans for that.  It also says there are a lot of people with political science degrees, but look at this!  There aren't very many jobs.  It might be a good idea to consider other options for a major."  

"Hmmm.  You know how I told you I thought you'd be great at software development?  Well, it says here that software development only require a bachelor's degree.  It pays well, and it's projected to stay in high demand.  Computer science might be a good major for you to consider."

FWIW, we did something like this for our dc back when they were deciding, and even though they didn't seem terribly interested at the time, they were listening.  They chose majors that made sense, and then changed them to others that made even more sense and didn't require any more time in school.  Their majors led to jobs that worked well with their personalities and paid enough that they could pursue their passions as hobbies.  They've since thanked us.  

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by klmama

[Hilltopmom]

Just coming back to add that state schools DO offer scholarships and financial aid.

[Lanny]

1 hour ago, Hilltopmom said:

Just coming back to add that state schools DO offer scholarships and financial aid.

 

Yes. Some like UNC and UVirginia have large Endowments and they can do that. Some other public universities can do that too, but I think it is pretty rare.

[8filltheheart]

12 hours ago, Paige said:

 

Eta: I see where you say he doesn't want a gap year, but for me, it wouldn't be all up to him. He's welcome to get motivated, find an interest, and get the money, but as long as I saw no change, I wouldn't be paying. We have 4 other kids to pay for too. I'm right there with my 18yr old so it's not just hypothetical. 

This would be our response as well, especially right now with the bleak economic future.  Internal motivation and maturity are requirements for us to fund things.

[Lanny]

@Janeway  My DD applied as "Undeclared" or "Undecided" or something like that. She has interests in and talents in many different things. I suspect that not declaring a Major resulted in some "No" responses, when she applied to universities.

Some universities (possibly Liberal Arts oriented?) encourage beginning as "Undeclared" and I believe that some schools require that.

My DD is getting a mix of stuff and I remember her writing to me about a C.S. course, how hard it is, very tough, but fun.  Honors course in Robotics.  Taught by an Instructor with a PhD and many years of experience to 24 students.

If your DS ends up in a STEM oriented school (DD is not in a STEM oriented school) there are many more Majors and it becomes much more confusing to select a Major, if one begins as "Undeclared".

One of my cousins and a childhood friend knew when they were very young what they wanted to be when they grew up (M.D. and Engineer) and they were both very successful with their careers. Not everyone is that lucky.

Much good luck to your DS!

ETA: RE: Gap years. I know many people here have DCs who take one and then go on to be very successful in school, but I think it is normal to forget a lot of stuff, with the passage of time. However, with the Covid-19 Coronavirus catastrophe, if one was going to take a "Gap" year, this might be a good time to do that, as it will give the job market a chance to recover.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Lanny
Add ETA

[8filltheheart]

Just now, Lanny said:

@Janeway  My DD applied as "Undeclared" or "Undecided" or something like that. She has interests in and talents in many different things. I suspect that not declaring a Major resulted in some "No" responses, when she applied to universities.

Some universities (possibly Liberal Arts oriented?) encourage beginning as "Undeclared" and I believe that some schools require that.

My DD is getting a mix of stuff and I remember her writing to me about a C.S. course, how hard it is, very tough, but fun.  Honors course in Robotics.  Taught by an Instructor with a PhD and many years of experience to 24 students.

If your DS ends up in a STEM oriented school (DD is not in a STEM oriented school) there are many more Majors and it becomes much more confusing to select a Major, if one begins as "Undeclared".

One of my cousins and a childhood friend knew when they were very young what they wanted to be when they grew up (M.D. and Engineer) and they were both very successful with their careers. Not everyone is that lucky.

Much good luck to your DS!

 

 

I see undeclared and unmotivated as different beasts.  This is the sentence that jumped out at me, " He says unless he can go to the colleges in person and speak to the people in person, he just won't bother."  A young adult is perfectly capable of recognizing that in today's scenario that that is not a possibility and that they need to figure out an alternative approach.  Making that statement is a sign of either immaturity or lack of motivation.  Either one is a problem from my perspective.

[Guest]

If he picks a bigger state U (or private) that has programs that are decent in all his areas, he can go, do a year of general Ed classes and talk to people in departments, or take a class or two, and then figure out where to go. So, if you are a possible music major, take your general Ed classes, a credit of private lessons, and a credit of ensemble. It is likely that by doing so, you wouldn't have to audition after that first year, and you would have been able to see just what a music major involves by being around the music majors. Frankly, almost every "undecided, but I like music" decided on majoring in something else and just doing ensembles after doing so-but it was their choice. So do about half of the first year music majors. Substitute in any other major you want for music. Often once you're on campus, the dew dries off the roses a bit. 

 

Depending on where you are, that may be a possibility at a CC as well, which would be more cost effective. Schools that feed into state U's with music schools will tend to offer some music classes, for example. 

 

 

 

 

[Janeway]

3 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

Just coming back to add that state schools DO offer scholarships and financial aid.

In other states, but not in the state we live. 

[Hilltopmom]

6 minutes ago, Janeway said:

In other states, but not in the state we live. 

Ugh that’s a bummer!

[RootAnn]

Isn't this your son that is on the spectrum? I admit that my first thought was that you could be seeing that those kids often need a few more years of maturity before tackling big decisions.

If you people at home can handle living with him there another year or two, I'd suggest gen eds at a local community college part-time and a part-time job. Or a gap year and a full time job.

Right now, it is unclear if colleges will be online in the fall or in person. It sounds like online would be a bad fit and that he's struggled with institutionalized education the last year or so, so maybe a job is the right next step anyway? Just some ideas...

[maize]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I see undeclared and unmotivated as different beasts.  This is the sentence that jumped out at me, " He says unless he can go to the colleges in person and speak to the people in person, he just won't bother."  A young adult is perfectly capable of recognizing that in today's scenario that that is not a possibility and that they need to figure out an alternative approach.  Making that statement is a sign of either immaturity or lack of motivation.  Either one is a problem from my perspective.

I think this may be a kid with ASD, which would suggest he may need extra support and guidance for some time.

I agree that undeclared/undecided is different from unmotivated. I took a long time to settle on a major in college and took courses from at least four different majors including music, anthropology, microbiology, and linguistics. I had AP/IB credits that covered many of my GE's so had more flexibility in my schedule than many but it took me a long time to settle on a degree course. I did end up taking one extra semester to graduate but by that time I had scholarships that covered most of my expenses; I don't feel like any of the time I spent exploring different areas of study was wasted.

 

[Janeway]

32 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Isn't this your son that is on the spectrum? I admit that my first thought was that you could be seeing that those kids often need a few more years of maturity before tackling big decisions.

If you people at home can handle living with him there another year or two, I'd suggest gen eds at a local community college part-time and a part-time job. Or a gap year and a full time job.

Right now, it is unclear if colleges will be online in the fall or in person. It sounds like online would be a bad fit and that he's struggled with institutionalized education the last year or so, so maybe a job is the right next step anyway? Just some ideas...

Yes, this is the one. 

[Janeway]

42 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Ugh that’s a bummer!

I know! In the state I am from, his SAT scores would have earned him a lot in scholarship. It has been mind numbing speaking to old friends saying "well, we don't have to worry about the cost, Emily has worked just so hard that she has great scholarships. She was always such a good student." and I am sitting here in my big 'ole huge state of no financial aid or scholarships at the state schools wanting to reach through the phone and wring their necks. 

[G5052]

Both of mine have done community college and are commuting now to a nationally-ranked four year. Both are academic superstars and are thriving.

Absolutely the right choice for us.

 

[8filltheheart]

Well, my totally cynical and college-was-a-waste-of-money for our Aspie POV is that there is no way I would spend that $$ now.  Not unless I was well off and $$ was no object and our income was 100% secure.   That "additional support" for our ds is a lot of continued daily support and in no way equates to normal independent functioning.  Attending a CC or getting a job (grocery stores and home improvement stores are hiring) would be the 2 options I would offer.

But, I am completely and totally unsympathetic toward this issue.  BTDT and wasted more $$ than all of our other children (and still at home children will receive) combined.  Harsh? Yep, I know that, but it doesn't change my perspective.  Our ds is now 28 and college was absolutely not the right path forward for him at 18.  He tried again at 26 and dropped out again.  (With a 4.0.  School is a breeze.  Life is the problem.)

[AEC]

of the list of things OP  mentioned as possibilities, the only two I see that are really hard to switch INTO are Music (BFA) and CS. Both are effectively trade schools and at many Universities you have to apply specifically to them at the outset and you have almost no GEs. I have a CS degree and my GEs were essentially 1 english and 2 philosophy classes - everything else was math, physics, more math, and CS/EE classes taught by the department. Even the math and physics classes were specifically for Math/Physics/Eng majors. BFA programs, as I've learned this year, are often run as tracks where you have no choices in what you take - all the courses are specific to the major.

I suspect that for most kids, if you're a fit for that sort of program you KNOW. Most everyone else who 'likes computers' or 'enjoys music' should look at taking some classes here or there and making this a great hobby or weekend gig (which is fine!). The rest of those majors (heck, most majors) have a decent chunk of GEs in common that you can take without loosing a year of progress while you sort it out.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

Accounting isn't hard to switch into, but switching into it may lead to more time (at dd's school they had rigid business core requirements that would make it pretty difficult to complete the degree in 4 yrs if switching into the major after freshman yr.)

[Lanny]

4 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I see undeclared and unmotivated as different beasts.  This is the sentence that jumped out at me, " He says unless he can go to the colleges in person and speak to the people in person, he just won't bother."  A young adult is perfectly capable of recognizing that in today's scenario that that is not a possibility and that they need to figure out an alternative approach.  Making that statement is a sign of either immaturity or lack of motivation.  Either one is a problem from my perspective.

 

+1 for that.  That is not going to fly and he must be much more flexible, because one must go with the situation that is possible, today, and not what one might do if things were "normal" 

It is not always possible to visit schools (my DD didn't have that opportunity) and take the tour and (possibly) talk with the "right" people in person and at this time, it isn't possible and the "right" people may not even be on campus, they may be working remotely.

He can talk with them on WhatsApp or Skype or Team Viewer or something.

If he is inflexible, he has other issues that should be treated, before he goes off to university, IMO.

[chiguirre]

3 hours ago, Janeway said:

I know! In the state I am from, his SAT scores would have earned him a lot in scholarship. It has been mind numbing speaking to old friends saying "well, we don't have to worry about the cost, Emily has worked just so hard that she has great scholarships. She was always such a good student." and I am sitting here in my big 'ole huge state of no financial aid or scholarships at the state schools wanting to reach through the phone and wring their necks. 

While it is true that UT Austin and TAMU do not give much merit aid, it is not true that there is no money available at TX state schools. Both UTDallas and U of Houston offer scholarships up to full tuition for a combination of SAT scores and GPA/class rank. These are both nationally ranked universities with good programs in business and comp sci. U of H also has a good music school.

https://www.utdallas.edu/enroll/freshman/aes/

https://uh.edu/financial/undergraduate/types-aid/scholarships/#freshmen

 

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Accounting isn't hard to switch into, but switching into it may lead to more time (at dd's school they had rigid business core requirements that would make it pretty difficult to complete the degree in 4 yrs if switching into the major after freshman yr.)

I think it's like that for most things outside of the Humanities, honestly.  I've seen this with both my nephews, who applied 'undeclared'.  One putzed around taking all his GEds freshman year (except any math of any kind). His advisor apparently didn't see this as a problem. Then when he decided on a major (Environmental Science), to finish it in 4 years, he would have had to take almost 100% required classes, and navigate tricky pre-reqs that weren't listed as required but had to be taken to get into the required classes.  And take Calc after time off.  He's not going to graduate in 4 years, and it's two years later and he still hasn't taken Calc.  Other nephew (different Uni) was also told to take 'whatever' and that he could just take some random Computer Skills class as his "math" GEd.  I pointed out to him that that class wouldn't count for the math requirement for any Business, Social Science degree (you'd need at least Stats), and certainly not anything more math based.  Just Humanities.  He doesn't like Humanities.  He ended up leaving after a semester anyway and is planning an Associate's in a med tech field (which I think was a good idea for him).  But for both of them, the 'find yourself by taking GenEds and you'll still have time to finish any degree in 4 years' was a flat-out lie.  Humanities, yes.  Anything else, no.

My dd's doing Accounting, but yeah, there are a bunch of courses that you have to take already freshman year if you want to finish in 4.  Most are generic Business courses, so switching from one Business major to another isn't a big deal, but from something else?  Not so easy.  I think that's often true - it's easy to switch to something else in the same school (Business, Humanities, Social or Natural Sciences, Engineering, etc.) - it's switching between them that's harder.  Easier also to switch from 'harder' to 'easier' - Engineering Calc can usually be used to replace whatever Calc the Business, Social or Natural Sciences schools require, but if you start with Business Calc, that won't work for Bio, and the Calc for Bio sometimes won't work for Engineering.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Matryoshka

[MerryAtHope]

I understand! Mine started at the cc for just this reason. One didn’t decide, got a liberal arts associates degree and took a gap year before deciding.  And one switched from pre-nursing to early childhood education—some very different requirements that lengthened the time, but at cc prices and while living at home. We just can’t afford for them to transfer until they have a solid plan. Each family has to look at what’s reasonable for them. 

[Lanny]

There is another issue here, that the OP mentioned when she began this thread. The issue of Computers and using Software was mentioned and he says he doesn't like that and wants to go to the university and talk to the people in person, before deciding on a university?

He is probably going to need to be very proficient with a Laptop with the Microsoft Office (or LibreOffice or Google Drive) Suite. Hopefully he has those skills now, but if not, there are a lot of Free tutorials on the web if he gets stuck about how to do something he needs to do.

My DD has had to submit things for one of her C.S. courses (Robotics) that required PowerPoint slides. He will probably need at least those skills, in addition to being able to participate in classes that are Online, using Team Video or another platform. Hopefully in the Fall, the classes will be  in-person, but if not, he needs to be prepared to do Online courses, which may be Asynchronous or Synchronous.

He must also be able to participate in meetings with Instructors or Tutors online in the future, because many people will want to and need to maintain their distance from others, as much as is possible. 

He needs to be really comfortable with his Laptop because it will be in his backpack all day and he will be using it all day. Technology is heavily used and never more so than the past 2 months when a lot of in-seat courses changed, suddenly, to "Online" courses.

Good luck to him!

[daijobu]

I like these resources for planning your future.  (Caveat:  I'm a big fan of Cal Newport, so much of this is his material.)  

 

The Danger of the Dream Job Illusion

 

The Passion Trap

 

Complicated Career Advice

 

Working Right Versus Finding the Right Work

 

It's Not About You

 

So Good They Can't Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion  (Okay I haven't read this yet, but I've read enough Newport to know what he's getting at here.)  

 

Designing Your Life   (not CN)

[Clemsondana]

I won't speak to whether college is the best next step for this kid, but if he decides to go to college and is trying to decide between different majors I'd suggest 2 considerations.  First, the above 'What do you want your life to look like?' question is a good one.  It's hard to imagine at 18 in some ways, but there are other things that he probably knows about himself...like, if he likes a routine, music performance is probably not a good choice (gigs at odd hours, stretches of extreme business and then slow times, etc) while music teaching (like a high school band director) might be OK.  Does he want a job that involves working with people - if not, then band director would also be a bad choice.  Computer programming might be OK, but IT support where he's helping clueless people might be bad...obviously these would need to be tailored to his specifics, but if there's no forseeable use for a degree, then in this situation it might be best to keep that as a hobby/electives in college.

One other thing that has helped some of my former students is to look at the 'plan of study' for different majors at colleges he's considering.  I didn't know to do this, but accidentally did something similar.  I had a lot of band friends who are now band directors.  They were a few years ahead of me, and they talked about the stress of all of the performance-based classes where their grade was based on a solo performance.  Instrumentalists particularly struggled with sight-singing.  I had considered music/teaching as a possible major, but realized that I didn't want that kind of stress associated with music...so I majored in science and did marching and concert bands for fun.  When I looked at the degree plan at freshman orientation, I thought that physics and calc looked yucky, but the biology/biochem classes sounded super interesting.  As a grad student, I once advised a complaining undergrad that if a couple of classes weren't interesting, well, that's life, but if you don't like anything, you're in the wrong major.  Is there anything that he could eliminate through that process?  

[ThisIsTheDay]

On 4/14/2020 at 8:16 AM, Lanny said:

 

Yes. Some like UNC and UVirginia have large Endowments and they can do that. Some other public universities can do that too, but I think it is pretty rare.

 

My son was offered a full tuition scholarship at a medium sized VA public university. I don't think it's that unusual, at least in Virginia.

But ultimately we decided it was not the best option for him at the time, and he ended up going to CC for two years. At the start of CC, he took pre-nursing classes, was accepted into the nursing program, and then decided against it. He scrambled that second year for the requirements to graduate with an AAS, and then transferred to a four year uni.

Janeway, it can be hard. There is so much pressure to make the "right choice," when in reality, that's almost impossible. He can start off with something he enjoys, or not declare a major yet, or take a gap year, or knock out his gen eds at a CC. We never emphasized that it was a "life" decision.

Our personal family goal was to graduate in four years, period. We could not afford a fifth year of school. Both of my kids took dual enrollment classes in high school, which made all of the difference down the road. My daughter went straight to a 4 year college and was able to take just 12 credits her first semester. My son was able to change goals and complete that AAS because of his prior dual enrollment credits.

[linders]

On 4/13/2020 at 7:04 PM, Janeway said:

He says he hates doing anything virtual. He says unless he can go to the colleges in person and speak to the people in person, he just won't bother. In fact, I wonder how college would even work out. Don't colleges require a lot of "google doc" and stuff like that these days? He says he hates doing anything on the computer...

My S19 is a Finance/Accounting double major in the Honors program at UofSC. And yes, even before colleges transitioned to online, he had a lot of online work (and this even though all his classes were <30 students). At his school the "Google Classroom" equivalent (which he used in high school) is "Blackboard." If you don't check Blackboard often, you are toast. Teachers give directions and information online, and all of his assignments are submitted online. Grades and comments wrt those grades are provided online. S has online discussion groups, and one TA has always done study sessions via Zoom. His books are online (we made the mistake of buying one hard copy, which was bad - the homework assignments were all accessed and submitted via an online link to the online book.)

Sure, there is much person-to-person (at least if you have smaller classes), but you must be comfortable with online work.

ETA: Re the move to virtual instruction, most of S19's profs have been holding "live" classes where the students can interact and ask questions. This has only worked because he has small classes - wouldn't be the same in a large lecture, but I don't know that those offer much two-way interaction anyway.

Edited April 16, 2020 by linders

[GoodGrief]

I think sometimes having too many choices can be overwhelming. It sounds like he has a lot of interests and could be reasonably successful at many things.

In the current economic state, I'd be tempted to gently guide him toward the path that seems most likely to lead him into a career with a number of available jobs. I'd focus on one area for now and help him get enough information to get excited about that. If it doesn't work out and he needs to change, so be it.

[Clemsondana]

I had skipped over the 'hates anything on a computer' part - yes, a lot of college instructors require papers to be submitted online and post assignments online.  Students can be argumentative, and this avoids complaints that 'you didn't tell us' about a due date - everything is posted and they are supposed to check it.  Online submission lets students turn things in at times when faculty are not on campus, avoids the 'I turned it in and you lost it' situation, and also allows faculty to use plagarism-check software.  

Personally, I prefer to make corrections on paper copies of work, but if I went back to college teaching I would keep online submission as an option, if not a requirement.  I once had a student give me a poor review, with the words  'When I went to turn in my lab report late, she wasn't at her desk so I had to turn it in even later, lowering my grade'.  The number of flaws in this argument...first, turn it in on time, second, leave it on my desk - I can't sit there all the time, and third, if you want to give it to me personally, make an appointment.  Anyway, that was something of a rant but not uncommon, and I don't blame faculty for choosing a method that avoids those sorts of complaints.  Wanting to talk to faculty or be on campus to find the vibe in a department is understandable even if difficult at the moment, but not wanting to do any work on a computer would be a challenge.  

[ieta_cassiopeia]

Do you have a college in commutable distance? If so, does it have a student union or equivalent organiser of student activities that accepts separate registration from the college?

If so, a possible answer might be to combine a part-time job/part-time studies of some sort (with those interests, including subjects with maths and music would be a good idea simply to keep in practise), with membership of the student activity organisation and those societies in fields that interest your son (and don't clash with the job or studies). I do not know to what extent there is separation of student activity organisation and college where you are (if they're the same organisation, it's likely to be impossible; if they're different organisations, it may well be feasible, since the university is probably just passing over a set fee per student to the student activity organisation, which you could pay directly instead of having to pay $$$ to the college for a whole course experience on top). In the current situation, some of them may have online things going on, and this will allow your son to introduce himself and get some initial insights. (He might even have started the narrowing-down process by the time societies start meeting physically).

It does not matter if this is a college he would never consider studying at - that might even be helpful, as it may reduce temptation to get too attached to that specific college if he later decides he's ready to focus on a specific degree. The point would be to gradually give him insight into what studying each of these disciplines is actually like, without worrying about grades or coursework or life skills for which he is not ready. It means there's a chance to find and troubleshoot life skills issues and make decisions about practical academic options, before success or failure at them can determine a grade. If he then decides "right, university's not as rosy as I thought, let's stay out," then he can do that with relatively little outlay spent clarifying that decision. If he decides he does want a specific degree, it'll be with eyes relatively open and having a better idea of how to juggle those other interests.

Definitely do not send a student onto a $$$ university course without them having enough information for them to feel they were able to make an informed decision. If this student needs in-person and department conversations to do that, that tells me a productive gap year is needed. (And yes, being comfortable with a lot of IT is necessary, even if not doing computer science. Even when I went to university 15 years ago, it was compulsory to hand in all assignments on both paper and electronic media (back then, it was floppy disk, CD or flash drive, because it was before online submission systems took off).

[katilac]

On 4/14/2020 at 4:12 PM, Lanny said:

 He needs to be really comfortable with his Laptop because it will be in his backpack all day and he will be using it all day. 

I agree that he should be comfortable using technology, but neither of my kids have ever carried their laptops around all day. They have plenty of work that is done on the computer, often with specific software, but that work is done either in labs or on their laptops outside of class time. They took notes on paper (which is my preference also) and rarely, if ever, brought their laptops to class. (hardware and software is provided for their labs) 

Considering what we paid for those laptops, I'm pretty glad they're not toting them around all day, lol. 

[Lanny]

12 hours ago, katilac said:

I agree that he should be comfortable using technology, but neither of my kids have ever carried their laptops around all day. They have plenty of work that is done on the computer, often with specific software, but that work is done either in labs or on their laptops outside of class time. They took notes on paper (which is my preference also) and rarely, if ever, brought their laptops to class. (hardware and software is provided for their labs) 

Considering what we paid for those laptops, I'm pretty glad they're not toting them around all day, lol. 

 

Depends upon the school and how the students use their Laptops?