wuhan - coronavirus

[TracyP]

8 minutes ago, EmseB said:

What does this phrase mean, "significant subclinical lung abnormalities"?

I'm searching and it seems to be the "ground glass opacity" that is the marker of what is seen on CT scans of COVID patients. This means they are showing signs of the lung infection even though they are not showing outward symptoms. 

[ktgrok]

The lung changes are especially concerning when you think of this NOT being a one and done illness, but acculumating damage over repeated incidents 😞

[ktgrok]

The leader of the country just said that he told the administration to slow the testing down. 

So if we are wondering why there isn't more testing...well, he didn't want more testing. He wanted less. 

[TracyP]

36 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/studies-report-rapid-loss-of-covid-19-antibodies-67650

“One of the studies found that 10 percent of nearly 1,500 COVID-positive patients registered undetectable antibody levels within weeks of first showing symptoms, while the other of 74 patients found they typically lost their antibodies two to three months after recovering from the infection, especially among those who tested positive but were asymptomatic...These reports highlight the need to develop strong vaccines, because immunity that develops naturally during infection is suboptimal and short-lived in most people,” Akiko Iwasaki, a viral immunologist at Yale University who was not involved in either study, tells The New York Times. “We cannot rely on natural infection to achieve herd immunity.”

Ugh. This seems like really bad news... This can't be good news for a vaccine and clearly is bad news for anyone who was hoping getting this could be a one and done situation.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, TracyP said:

Ugh. This seems like really bad news... This can't be good news for a vaccine and clearly is bad news for anyone who was hoping getting this could be a one and done situation.

We do have veterinary corona virus vaccines, so I'm still holding out hope, but yeah, it's a huge blow if true. No way our economy can survive people being out of work sick over and over, and there is no way to protect the vulnerable if it is constantly circulating in the population. 

[Melissa in Australia]

14 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The leader of the country just said that he told the administration to slow the testing down. 

So if we are wondering why there isn't more testing...well, he didn't want more testing. He wanted less. 

I just read this on the news

Mind boggling 

Do people really think that if there usess testing it magically no longer exists??? 

[Melissa in Australia]

19 new cases in Victoria today

State of emergency has been extended until middle of next month. 

I am currently in a train taking twin 1 to Melbourne for a essential medical appointment there are 5 other people in the train carriage. Usually the country to city train is pretty full 

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, TracyP said:

I'm searching and it seems to be the "ground glass opacity" that is the marker of what is seen on CT scans of COVID patients. This means they are showing signs of the lung infection even though they are not showing outward symptoms. 

How would one have damaged lungs ro the level of opacity on imaging and not feel it? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, EmseB said:

How would one have damaged lungs ro the level of opacity on imaging and not feel it? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

The body will compensate to a point. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/vitamin-deficiency-fully-explain-covid-19s-effect-people/story?id=71341356

@Pen @ElizabethB

on vit d and ethnicity in Covid deaths in the UK

Apologies if it’s already posted haven’t had time to catch up yet

[Pen]

Iirc in NYC doctors were saying that quite a few people coming into ER for accidents and injuries, unaware of being sick, were found to have CV19 ground glass lung opacities. 

[ktgrok]

regarding not knowing - my friend that just found out she has a partially collapsed lung has been functioning like this for months. She thought she was depressed and that was why she felt less motivated. (she did have coughing early on, but not for a while)

When my asthma would flare, I often didn't realize it, and just felt tired and unmotivated. 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Ktgrok

52 minutes ago, EmseB said:

How would one have damaged lungs to the level of opacity on imaging and not feel it? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

 

This is not a dumb question at all.  It surprises a lot of medical professionals. And I suspect the honest answer right now is "no one knows for sure".  But, here is an op-ed piece by a New York ER doc about this "Silent Hypoxia", and what may be causing it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

The leader of the country just said that he told the administration to slow the testing down. 

So if we are wondering why there isn't more testing...well, he didn't want more testing. He wanted less. 

was that this?  I was wondering if there was some context I was missing

[Ausmumof3]

On 6/18/2020 at 8:41 PM, TracyP said:

I don't know. 2 boys died in China when wearing masks during phy ed. Maybe the UA mask addresses this potential problem? If not, I would not want to see it become mandatory.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/warning-over-serious-risks-wearing-18428246.amp

Without the face mask on, her concentration of oxygen was 19.5%. With the face mask on, her oxygen levels dropped to 17% - the equivalent of exercising at 1,500 metres.

She said: “Any further decreases in oxygen concentration – by exercising longer or harder – would have a large effect on the physiological responses to exercise, causing altitude-sickness symptoms such as dizziness or headache.”

She added: “With gyms looking to reopen and sports clubs wanting to resume, before anyone recommends wearing a face mask, research urgently needs to be undertaken to ensure the safety of the sporting community, regardless of any underlying conditions.”

I remember those cases.  I have to be honest though I somewhat wondered if that was used as a cover up for the fact that there will still covid cases around.  Seems they are now admitting the covid outbreak in Beijing was around since April.  

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, EmseB said:

What does this phrase mean, "significant subclinical lung abnormalities"?

Here pics though I have no clue how to interpret that because I don’t know what normal looks like

 

[TracyP]

52 minutes ago, EmseB said:

How would one have damaged lungs ro the level of opacity on imaging and not feel it? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

That's a good question. It seems strange to me, too. As an aside since I'm looking at this further... On the plus side CT scans show these lesions improving by day 14 after peaking at 10 days, on average. On the down side it can take months for them to completely disappear in some patients. (I would guess this part is more closely tied to how sick you are, but who knows) That seems particularly worrisome if anyone was reinfected before the lungs had completely healed.

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, TracyP said:

That's a good question. It seems strange to me, too. As an aside since I'm looking at this further... On the plus side CT scans show these lesions improving by day 14 after peaking at 10 days, on average. On the down side it can take months for them to completely disappear in some patients. (I would guess this part is more closely tied to how sick you are, but who knows) That seems particularly worrisome if anyone was reinfected before the lungs had completely healed.

Or infected with another illness or bacteria with already compromised lungs.  I also wondered although maybe it’s being to far looking about long term.  Some viral scarring is linked to cancer in the future.  Presumably if they are healing though that’s less likely.  I haven’t heard that.

[matrips]

11 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

was that this?  I was wondering if there was some context I was missing

 

11 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

was that this?  I was wondering if there was some context I was missing

Based on that clip, it sounded like he was just trying to be funny.  He does have quite a sense of humor.  Unfortunately he doesn’t think ahead to hear how things will get used.

I remember when my ultrasound was being done and they saw three babies- I said stop scanning!  

[Ausmumof3]

I also think it’s kind of in the name.  Sudden acute respiratory syndrome.  It was named that because of the way people could become very sick or even die without showing much in the way of symptoms.  So it’s not that surprising in a way that there’s something going on that’s not obvious that is causing serious damage.

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, matrips said:

 

Based on that clip, it sounded like he was just trying to be funny.  He does have quite a sense of humor.  Unfortunately he doesn’t think ahead to hear how things will get used.

I remember when my ultrasound was being done and they saw three babies- I said stop scanning!  

Yeah maybe.  It seems quite inappropriate to joke about it when so many people died but that’s better than thinking he was serious.

[matrips]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yeah maybe.  It seems quite inappropriate to joke about it when so many people died but that’s better than thinking he was serious.

I agree.  He talks off the cuff, not like a politician.  It gets him in trouble constantly.

[Melissa in Australia]

Deleted,

I guess too political

Edited June 21, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[TracyP]

15 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

was that this?  I was wondering if there was some context I was missing

Oh dear Lord. I thought people were talking about the comments from Monday which were similar. This is not political. This is B.S. If the leader of any country is trying to withhold testing to artificially make the outbreak look less severe that is a risk to all our health. That is completely unacceptable. Even the crowd seemed to reapond negatively from what I could tell.

[Alte Veste Academy]

2 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I just read this on the news

Mind boggling 

Do people really think that if there usess testing it magically no longer exists??? 

 

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yeah maybe.  It seems quite inappropriate to joke about it when so many people died but that’s better than thinking he was serious.

Well in the clip it seems he is joking. But he does actually confuse more testing with more cases. Last week, he said, "If we stopped testing right now, we'd have very few cases, if any." Politifact discusses his confusion here.

[maize]

5 minutes ago, matrips said:

I agree.  He talks off the cuff, not like a politician.  It gets him in trouble constantly.

Thing is, as President of the United States of America, he is a politician. A really prominent one.

The words he says matter. The words he says have power.

People in positions of that much power need to be able to think things through before they open their mouths.

[Melissa in Australia]

So some of the increase in cases in my state of Victoria are due to large extended family gatherings, where children caught coronavirus then visited grandparents and spreading it to them, then going to school and now the teacher is ill, the school has closed for cleaning and testing of others at the school. The children apparently had mild symptoms and were attending school while displaying the mild symptoms 

[SoCal_Bear]

@Ausmumof3 Panel F on the lower right are normal presenting lungs.

[Pen]

21 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yeah maybe.  It seems quite inappropriate to joke about it when so many people died but that’s better than thinking he was serious.

 

I am pretty sure it was meant to be a joke—but not one I find funny . 

[Melissa in Australia]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I am pretty sure it was meant to be a joke—but not one I find funny . 

Here it is being called a brag.

Maybe there is some sort of USA humour that escapes the rest of the world. 

[BeachGal]

1 hour ago, EmseB said:

How would one have damaged lungs ro the level of opacity on imaging and not feel it? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

 

From what I read on a board for health care workers, the ground glass opacity is not always affecting the bronchiole tubes. The virus is going into a particular layer of the lung — I forget what it’s called. I should have saved the post. If I come across it again, I’ll post it here. 

[BeachGal]

2 hours ago, TracyP said:

Ugh. This seems like really bad news... This can't be good news for a vaccine and clearly is bad news for anyone who was hoping getting this could be a one and done situation.

 

I don’t think this is going to be a problem with the vaccine. Here’s my very limited understanding of antibodies and immunity. I might not be getting this quite right, though.

The asymptomatic cases are probably clearing the virus enough with their innate immune response. They’re able to fight off the virus before it can really take hold. (Antibodies are not the only way we clear infections.) However, that could mean antibody tests might not detect people who have had Covid (because they did not need to make the antibodies or did not make many).

Antibodies also shouldn’t stick around too long anyway because that could cause autoimmune problems. Instead memory cells will make a record of antibodies (and possibly the virus? Not sure.) Then, if the virus reappears later, the memory cells will assist in creating what is needed.

[Ausmumof3]

39 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

For my kid, the ground glass comes from the build up of proteins in his alveoli, and scarring in the interstitium, the tissue that supports the alveoli.  

Liking to say thank you for the information not because I like that your kid has to deal with this 😞 

[Ausmumof3]

34 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

 

I don’t think this is going to be a problem with the vaccine. Here’s my very limited understanding of antibodies and immunity. I might not be getting this quite right, though.

The asymptomatic cases are probably clearing the virus enough with their innate immune response. They’re able to fight off the virus before it can really take hold. (Antibodies are not the only way we clear infections.) However, that could mean antibody tests might not detect people who have had Covid (because they did not need to make the antibodies or did not make many).

Antibodies also shouldn’t stick around too long anyway because that could cause autoimmune problems. Instead memory cells will make a record of antibodies (and possibly the virus? Not sure.) Then, if the virus reappears later, the memory cells will assist in creating what is needed.

I thought there were different types some are meant to be more long term.  I googled and found this 

Functions of Antibody

1. IgG provides long term protection because it persists for months and years after the prescence of the antigen that has triggered their production.
2. IgG protect against bacteris, viruses, neutralise bacterial toxins, trigger compliment protein systems and bind antigens to enhance the effectiveness of phagocytosis.
3. Main function of IgA is to bind antigens on microbes before they invade tissues. It aggregates the antigens and keeps them in the secretions so when the secretion is expelled, so is the antigen.
4. IgA are also first defense for mucosal surfaces such as the intestines, nose, and lungs.
5. IgM is involved in the ABO blood group antigens on the surface of RBCs.
6. IgM enhance ingestions of cells by phagocytosis.
7. IgE bind to mast cells and basophils wich participate in the immune response.
8. Some scientists think that IgE’s purpose is to stop parasites.
9. IgD is present on the surface of B cells and plays a role in the induction of antibody production.

all of this is way outside my understanding though ... just trying to figure it out as I go along

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I thought there were different types some are meant to be more long term.  I googled and found this 

Functions of Antibody

1. IgG provides long term protection because it persists for months and years after the prescence of the antigen that has triggered their production.
2. IgG protect against bacteris, viruses, neutralise bacterial toxins, trigger compliment protein systems and bind antigens to enhance the effectiveness of phagocytosis.
3. Main function of IgA is to bind antigens on microbes before they invade tissues. It aggregates the antigens and keeps them in the secretions so when the secretion is expelled, so is the antigen.
4. IgA are also first defense for mucosal surfaces such as the intestines, nose, and lungs.
5. IgM is involved in the ABO blood group antigens on the surface of RBCs.
6. IgM enhance ingestions of cells by phagocytosis.
7. IgE bind to mast cells and basophils wich participate in the immune response.
8. Some scientists think that IgE’s purpose is to stop parasites.
9. IgD is present on the surface of B cells and plays a role in the induction of antibody production.

all of this is way outside my understanding though ... just trying to figure it out as I go along

 

I studied immunology prior to taking a different direction in University.  It is fascinating, complex, and has had huge discoveries and developments in recent years.

There have been some decent Open source education courses (sometimes with cool and helpful microscopic views), khan academy videos iirc, and similar about it. 

I think DrBeen, who I’ve been watching on CV19, does a very good job on presenting about immunology clearly (though I think only with his own drawings, not electron microscopy views etc).

if you are interested this is his lecture 1 on immunology:

https://youtu.be/t20X8baz9_s

https://youtu.be/t20X8baz9_s

 

there are at least 11 lectures on immunology and some were broken into parts. ETA: It sounds like a lot, but you can probably start with that Lecture 1 and in a couple / few weeks of watching a lecture per day (maybe looking up a bit more) have a really good overview imo (though lectures started 9 years ago and there have been lots of advances more recent than that—including on memory cells).    If you are homeschooling and have kids right age / stage maybe it could be part of science or health homeschooling too. 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

@Ausmumof3  oops .  There are a lot more DrBeen lectures on immunology than I realized. But you can probably watch less than all and still learn a lot! 

[Ausmumof3]

48 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I studied immunology prior to taking a different direction in University.  It is fascinating, complex, and has had huge discoveries and developments in recent years.

There have been some decent Open source education courses (sometimes with cool and helpful microscopic views), khan academy videos iirc, and similar about it. 

I think DrBeen, who I’ve been watching on CV19, does a very good job on presenting about immunology clearly (though I think only with his own drawings, not electron microscopy views etc).

if you are interested this is his lecture 1 on immunology:

https://youtu.be/t20X8baz9_s

https://youtu.be/t20X8baz9_s

 

there are at least 11 lectures on immunology and some were broken into parts. ETA: It sounds like a lot, but you can probably start with that Lecture 1 and in a couple / few weeks of watching a lecture per day (maybe looking up a bit more) have a really good overview imo (though lectures started 9 years ago and there have been lots of advances more recent than that—including on memory cells).    If you are homeschooling and have kids right age / stage maybe it could be part of science or health homeschooling too. 

 

 

Thank you!  Yes most of my science learning has to either be quiet stuff I can read or stuff I can do with the kids for school otherwise I’m short on time.  I try to watch videos occasionally but it’s much easier to squish in a bit of reading when supervising math etc because it doesn’t distract the kids.  And I don’t want to do headphones because I can’t hear if they need help.  One day...! (Probably when I’m done homeschooling I’ll have to work so probably never... still self education in snippets is better than nothing)

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Thank you!  Yes most of my science learning has to either be quiet stuff I can read or stuff I can do with the kids for school otherwise I’m short on time.  I try to watch videos occasionally but it’s much easier to squish in a bit of reading when supervising math etc because it doesn’t distract the kids.  And I don’t want to do headphones because I can’t hear if they need help.  One day...! (Probably when I’m done homeschooling I’ll have to work so probably never... still self education in snippets is better than nothing)

 

One earphone 😉. You can hear a video and also hear requests for help. Seriously actually. 

If you catch the intro video, a couple on B and T cells, and immunoglobulins (IgG etc), and one on memory cells, it could help.

also his very recent one on vaccines and how a vaccine can be made to induce antibodies, but still not be effective if the antibodies don’t help to recognize and neutralize an important part of the virus (like the SARS2 spike protein) is very good, I thought. 

[Ausmumof3]

2nd day in a row of over 30,000 for the US.  And normally this would be a weekend dip day?  Or am I off by a day?

[Ausmumof3]

India is on an upward curve still 15,000 cases.  Brazil shows 55,000 cases then back to 31,000 so I’m not sure if some retrospective cases were added

[Ausmumof3]

Someone noted that 1/4 of recent imported cases to Aus are from Pakistan.  

[Ausmumof3]

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/19/three-meat-factories-in-england-and-wales-closed-over-coronavirus?__twitter_impression=true
 

more outbreaks in meat processing places this time in England and Wales.

interestingly China mentioned concern over contaminated freezers and frozen foods rightly or wrongly.  But it made me wonder - other coronaviruses have been shown to survive longer at cold temperatures.  I wonder if one of the factors in meat plant outbreaks is the refrigerated environments.  I realise they also have a lot of organic matter, aerosolisation due to use of bandsaws etc and frequently low paid workers which are probably also factors.

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, EmseB said:

How would one have damaged lungs ro the level of opacity on imaging and not feel it? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

FWIW--DH has cancer and has a CT scan every three/four months. Sometimes he has ground glass opacities in one or both lungs. His have been very light, and his oncologist isn't concerned at all. He says LOTS of things can cause those to occur. DH never feels any differently whether they show up or not.

 

7 hours ago, matrips said:

 

Based on that clip, it sounded like he was just trying to be funny.  He does have quite a sense of humor.  Unfortunately he doesn’t think ahead to hear how things will get used.

I remember when my ultrasound was being done and they saw three babies- I said stop scanning!  

Trying to be funny about a virus that has killed well over 120,000 Americans? That's not my idea of funny, and I'm guessing none of the victims' families think so, either. I can't imagine any decent person thinking it was funny.

Edited June 21, 2020 by Pawz4me

[TracyP]

7 hours ago, BeachGal said:

 

I don’t think this is going to be a problem with the vaccine. Here’s my very limited understanding of antibodies and immunity. I might not be getting this quite right, though.

The asymptomatic cases are probably clearing the virus enough with their innate immune response. They’re able to fight off the virus before it can really take hold. (Antibodies are not the only way we clear infections.) However, that could mean antibody tests might not detect people who have had Covid (because they did not need to make the antibodies or did not make many).

Antibodies also shouldn’t stick around too long anyway because that could cause autoimmune problems. Instead memory cells will make a record of antibodies (and possibly the virus? Not sure.) Then, if the virus reappears later, the memory cells will assist in creating what is needed.

I admit I dont know much about the mechanisms of immunity. However, if you get a measles, rubella, etc. titer, they are testing for antibodies which show immunity. This leads me to worry that without COVID antibodies these people do not have immunity. Add to that the reports of people being reinfected, I'm afraid this is very bad news. I'd love to be wrong tho. 

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, matrips said:

 

Based on that clip, it sounded like he was just trying to be funny.  He does have quite a sense of humor.  Unfortunately he doesn’t think ahead to hear how things will get used.

I remember when my ultrasound was being done and they saw three babies- I said stop scanning!  

I think, given the context, where he goes on to say that they are testing so much, and complains about finding cases in kids with minor symptoms, etc, he means it. He's upset that people who are not seriously sick are being tested and cases diagnosed. 

8 hours ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

For my kid, the ground glass comes from the build up of proteins in his alveoli, and scarring in the interstitium, the tissue that supports the alveoli.  

I believe in COVID 19 they think it is likely caused by micro clots in the alveoli. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-21/Has-cold-chain-become-the-new-hotbed-for-coronavirus--RvbCN9vZ6w/share_amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
 

obviously this is CGTN so not exactly reliable but it there a risk of the virus sitting on the outside of frozen food packaging?  Do we have any decent evidence on COVID survival at different temps yet?

[Matryoshka]

47 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-21/Has-cold-chain-become-the-new-hotbed-for-coronavirus--RvbCN9vZ6w/share_amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
 

obviously this is CGTN so not exactly reliable but it there a risk of the virus sitting on the outside of frozen food packaging?  Do we have any decent evidence on COVID survival at different temps yet?

Way back, there was a video out that said that Covid could survive something like 2 years in the freezer.   After that I've been Lysol wiping everything that goes in the fridge or freezer... I think heat kills it quickly,  but cold puts it in stasis... anyway, I've been figuring better safe than sorry...

[ktgrok]

Everything I've read says yes, it can survive a long time in cold conditions - up to years. 

[Pen]

Sweden - no oxygen for people over 80? 🥺😢

https://youtu.be/xk0TK_Syn9I

https://youtu.be/xk0TK_Syn9I

(Or over 60 plus risk factors.

sounds like a form of euthanasia 😲) 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Pen

[Jean in Newcastle]

16 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that covid cases the same damage my son has, just responding to the question about which part of the is impacted when there is ground glass.  In my experience it's the alveoli and the tissues that surround and support them. Clots in the capillaries would make sense.  

 

So how long does the body take to repair such damage?  I'm assuming (hopefully) the body can repair itself over time?