wuhan - coronavirus

[Ausmumof3]

Beijing - 36 more cases and 10 more areas in quarantine 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-asia-china-53046454?__twitter_impression=true

Three other provinces - Liaoning, Hebei and Sichuan - have also reported confirmed or suspected cases connected to Beijing. 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Melissa in Australia]

17 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The age - : Victoria has recorded 12 new cases of COVID-19, including a second person who attended Melbourne's anti-racism protest. The state's CHO has ruled out easing restrictions further.

Not sure if that is correct

Despite the double-digit increase in new cases, Prof Sutton remains confident restrictions will be eased on schedule next

Cafes, restaurants and pubs will be able to increase their capacity from 20 to 50 patrons from 11:59pm on Sunday, while cinemas, gyms and theatres have been given the green light to reopen.

Children will be able to compete in contact sports, while non-contact sport will also return for all age groups, as will skiing, with the season to start from that date.

VICTORIA'S 12 NEW CORONAVIRUS CASES:

*Young woman who attended Melbourne's Black Lives Matter protest

*Two people linked to a hospital patient, including a healthcare worker

*Seven people linked to a family outbreak, including four students

*One returned traveller in hotel quarantine

*One case under investigation.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/vic-cafe-pub-restrictions-to-ease-further/52414280-ed0f-42c4-8f66-728ab65c2268

2 schools have closed for cleaning as there seems to be an extended family cluster . the extended family have been getting together regularly they now have 11 members infected 

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Not sure if that is correct

Despite the double-digit increase in new cases, Prof Sutton remains confident restrictions will be eased on schedule next

Cafes, restaurants and pubs will be able to increase their capacity from 20 to 50 patrons from 11:59pm on Sunday, while cinemas, gyms and theatres have been given the green light to reopen.

Children will be able to compete in contact sports, while non-contact sport will also return for all age groups, as will skiing, with the season to start from that date.

VICTORIA'S 12 NEW CORONAVIRUS CASES:

*Young woman who attended Melbourne's Black Lives Matter protest

*Two people linked to a hospital patient, including a healthcare worker

*Seven people linked to a family outbreak, including four students

*One returned traveller in hotel quarantine

*One case under investigation.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/vic-cafe-pub-restrictions-to-ease-further/52414280-ed0f-42c4-8f66-728ab65c2268

2 schools have closed for cleaning as there seems to be an extended family cluster . the extended family have been getting together regularly they now have 11 members infected 

Thanks - the article is paywalled for me so hard to check if the details match the tweet

[Ausmumof3]

I

6 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Not sure if that is correct

Despite the double-digit increase in new cases, Prof Sutton remains confident restrictions will be eased on schedule next

Cafes, restaurants and pubs will be able to increase their capacity from 20 to 50 patrons from 11:59pm on Sunday, while cinemas, gyms and theatres have been given the green light to reopen.

Children will be able to compete in contact sports, while non-contact sport will also return for all age groups, as will skiing, with the season to start from that date.

VICTORIA'S 12 NEW CORONAVIRUS CASES:

*Young woman who attended Melbourne's Black Lives Matter protest

*Two people linked to a hospital patient, including a healthcare worker

*Seven people linked to a family outbreak, including four students

*One returned traveller in hotel quarantine

*One case under investigation.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/vic-cafe-pub-restrictions-to-ease-further/52414280-ed0f-42c4-8f66-728ab65c2268

2 schools have closed for cleaning as there seems to be an extended family cluster . the extended family have been getting together regularly they now have 11 members infected 

Is this a slight increase for Vic?  Things seemed to be slowing down a bit.

[Melissa in Australia]

I wish they would halt the further relaxing of restrictions. every day for the last few days the number of new cases is slowly increasing.  😞 

[Melissa in Australia]

2 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I

Is this a slight increase for Vic?  Things seemed to be slowing down a bit.

yesterday it was 9, the day before 8 new cases.... 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Melissa in Australia

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I wish they would halt the further relaxing of restrictions. every day for the last few days the number of new cases is slowly increasing.  😞 

Yes.  We are close to really getting on top of it but people are getting impatient.  There’s more and more wanting the rules relaxed completely.

[Jean in Newcastle]

KOMO 4 radio this morning - 5 people in Portland OR with COVID19 attributed to protests.  30 people in Seattle tested positive for COVID19 attributed to protests.  I assume that the participation in protests was information that they provided to certain questions about recent activity?  Anyway - no information as to ages, whether they needed hospitalization etc. so it's not a lot of information but people ask about transmission rates in protests so I found it interesting. 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Jean in Newcastle
typo

[kbutton]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2020/06/13/face-masks-may-be-the-key-determinant-of-the-covid-19-curve-study-suggests/?fbclid=IwAR1AkBO2lY_pdOXfrSfNl1A0yIFRxpZaltfiLhFlXWZ3AlACR8NcumjKQRU#697dfe3b6497

Quote

A new study out in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences finds that among all the strategies for reducing transmission, wearing face masks may be the central variable that determines the spread of the virus.

“Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the trends of the pandemic,” the team, from Texas A&M University, the University of Texas at Austin, California Institute of Technology, and the University of California San Diego, write in their new paper.

This is the study they linked to--I haven't finished reading it, but I am not the best one to comment on study methods and quality, lol. https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/06/10/2009637117#F2 

[Pen]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes.  We are close to really getting on top of it but people are getting impatient.  There’s more and more wanting the rules relaxed completely.

 

I have this feeling that whether or not this particular virus was a germ warfare type thing, anyone paying attention would see that significant numbers of people in USA, UK, and to lesser degree Canada and Australia populaces are likely to behave in virus spreading, self-destructive ways when faced with a communicable disease like this. 😟

[Pen]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2020/06/13/face-masks-may-be-the-key-determinant-of-the-covid-19-curve-study-suggests/?fbclid=IwAR1AkBO2lY_pdOXfrSfNl1A0yIFRxpZaltfiLhFlXWZ3AlACR8NcumjKQRU#697dfe3b6497

This is the study they linked to--I haven't finished reading it, but I am not the best one to comment on study methods and quality, lol. https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/06/10/2009637117#F2 

 

There are issues with PNAS for allowing self selection of reviewer panel.

Nonetheless, I think this is quite a good review of the situation .

 

As I have been emailing my representatives on both sides of the political aisle about mask wearing (apparently not many people are doing this, sadly imo) I am trying to include links to this and a few other studies and also videos that show droplets emission with and without masks.  (Hint  hint 😉, please consider urging your local, state, and Federal governments — elected reps, and appointed people like school boards and health and human services to at least strongly promote mask wearing!  (Or mandate in certain circumstances) ) 

 

Eye cover is probably also important.  There was a doctor I saw interviewed who probably got CV19 while on a plane where people were wearing masks but not eye protection.  

 

[Pen]

On 6/13/2020 at 5:03 AM, Pawz4me said:

Pretty much the same for DS21, although he doesn't care all that much either way.

 

Perhaps we should also be using descriptors as adjectives for other people too.  For example, not only black person,  but also American person, white person, Catholic person, Jewish person, Scottish person, Australian person, Indian person, Kenyan person, Brazilian person, and also, person with a medical license, person with a law license, person with a law enforcement  badge, person with a teaching license... etc

[Pawz4me]

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Perhaps we should also be using descriptors as adjectives for other people too.  For example, not only black person,  but also American person, white person, Catholic person, Jewish person, Scottish person, Australian person, Indian person, Kenyan person, Brazilian person, and also, person with a medical license, person with a law license, person with a law enforcement  badge, person with a teaching license... etc

I'm not sure why you quoted me, unless you misunderstood what I posted? My DS prefers "autistic" over "person with autism."  I also prefer "autistic" but it's not up to me to decide. I respect any individual's choice, and find it irritating when the person first people insinuate that there way is or should be everyone's preference.

[TracyP]

38 minutes ago, kbutton said:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2020/06/13/face-masks-may-be-the-key-determinant-of-the-covid-19-curve-study-suggests/?fbclid=IwAR1AkBO2lY_pdOXfrSfNl1A0yIFRxpZaltfiLhFlXWZ3AlACR8NcumjKQRU#697dfe3b6497

This is the study they linked to--I haven't finished reading it, but I am not the best one to comment on study methods and quality, lol. https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/06/10/2009637117#F2 

I am not the best at judging these studies either. I notice that the curve in figure 2B/2C is supposed to show the change that mask wearing brought. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but the curve in Italy starts to flatten the day of mandatory mask wearing and in NYC it is flattening a few days before mask wearing becomes mandatory. These seem to show that the curve was flattening before mask wearing became mandatory. Right?? But perhaps that is because people already were masking. I'm not sure it proves much either way, but I admit I'm not taking the time to read it closely right now.

[TracyP]

40 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Eye cover is probably also important.  There was a doctor I saw interviewed who probably got CV19 while on a plane where people were wearing masks but not eye protection.  

 

 

So the assumption here is that eye covering is needed? I hear this and think that it is evidence that masks are not 100% effective. Did the doctor explain this further?

Ler me note that I'm not trying to say masks are ineffective. I feel like my posts might read that way... I just don't understand the assumptions that are being made. 

[73349]

8 minutes ago, TracyP said:

I am not the best at judging these studies either. I notice that the curve in figure 2B/2C is supposed to show the change that mask wearing brought. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but the curve in Italy starts to flatten the day of mandatory mask wearing and in NYC it is flattening a few days before mask wearing becomes mandatory. These seem to show that the curve was flattening before mask wearing became mandatory. Right?? But perhaps that is because people already were masking. I'm not sure it proves much either way, but I admit I'm not taking the time to read it closely right now.

Another study I read cautioned that they need to watch for anticipatory effects: If you announce today that everybody has to start wearing masks by next Monday, some will start today or tomorrow. So if people already had masks in their possession before the mandate started, that would cause that appearance.

[Jean in Newcastle]

38 minutes ago, TracyP said:

 

So the assumption here is that eye covering is needed? I hear this and think that it is evidence that masks are not 100% effective. Did the doctor explain this further?

Ler me note that I'm not trying to say masks are ineffective. I feel like my posts might read that way... I just don't understand the assumptions that are being made. 

The assumption is that the virus can enter through mucus membranes.  So covering the mucous membranes of the mouth and nose (as well as the actual passageways) is good.  Covering the mucous membranes of the eyes even better.  I wear glasses.  It provides some droplet prevention from drops that come straight at me.  It isn't 100% effective like actual goggles would be but in combination with a mask, it's a level of protection that I'm comfortable with.  If I were a nurse on a COVID19 ward, I would want the goggles. 

[TracyP]

34 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The assumption is that the virus can enter through mucus membranes.  So covering the mucous membranes of the mouth and nose (as well as the actual passageways) is good.  Covering the mucous membranes of the eyes even better.  I wear glasses.  It provides some droplet prevention from drops that come straight at me.  It isn't 100% effective like actual goggles would be but in combination with a mask, it's a level of protection that I'm comfortable with.  If I were a nurse on a COVID19 ward, I would want the goggles. 

Yes, that's why I wondered if the doctor had expanded on the situation. Eye protection for medical staff working with covid patients is a given considering the possibility of droplet transmission. But I would definitely like more information before I consider that a good practice for the general public.

We already know the wearer of the mask gets little protection. I'm not sure how adding eye protection is helpful unless you are being coughed/sneezed on. Whether it entered via eyes or not this seems like an indication that the mask did not work. Whether it was droplets or aerosol, it appears the particles got beyond the mask. 

[Ausmumof3]

Worldwide passed 8 million cases in worldometer 

[Tap]

5 hours ago, TracyP said:

 

So the assumption here is that eye covering is needed? I hear this and think that it is evidence that masks are not 100% effective. Did the doctor explain this further?

Ler me note that I'm not trying to say masks are ineffective. I feel like my posts might read that way... I just don't understand the assumptions that are being made. 

I haven't back tracked this specific thread topic, but wanted to say that in our area with mandated masks, not everyone complies. There are medical exceptions to the law, and people who refuse to wear them. There are people who wear them wrong, and people who take them off for things like talking on the phone (even tho they are in public), drinking or snacking. 

I flew a month ago and while the plane required passengers and staff to wear masks, they gave us a can of water and snack to eat. It was  expected that people would remove the mask for the drink/snack service (or what they brought themselves). It wasn't announced that this was going to happen on the flight ahead of time so people on the flight may have expected that everyone would have been masked 100% of the time. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Tap

[TracyP]

20 minutes ago, Tap said:

I haven't back tracked this specific thread topic, but wanted to say that in our area with mandated masks, not everyone complies. There are medical exceptions to the law, and people who refuse to wear them. There are people who wear them wrong, and people who take them off for things like talking on the phone (even tho they are in public), drinking or snacking. 

I flew a month ago and while the plane required passengers and staff to wear masks, they gave us a can of water and snack to eat. It was  expected that people would remove the mask for the drink/snack service (or what they brought themselves). It wasn't announced that this was going to happen on the flight ahead of time so people on the flight may have expected that everyone would have been masked 100% of the time. 

Which if that's the case (masks were removed mid flight) again begs the question - why make the leap to needing eye protection? 

[Tap]

10 minutes ago, TracyP said:

Which if that's the case (masks were removed mid flight) again begs the question - why make the leap to needing eye protection? 

Because someone may think they are boarding a flight and everyone will be wearing masks, so particulate levels will be low. Hence they skip eye protection. But then they get on board and find out that they are only required most of the time. 

[ktgrok]

On 6/13/2020 at 7:57 AM, Joker said:

And there is not consensus with everyone. Youngest is insistent she is not someone “with autism” and instead “is autistic”. It’s just who she is and not something she has like cancer. 🤷‍♀️

Right, but autistic is still an adjective, not a noun. That was the point being made I think, regarding people of color?

[Pen]

7 hours ago, TracyP said:

 

So the assumption here is that eye covering is needed? I hear this and think that it is evidence that masks are not 100% effective. Did the doctor explain this further?

Ler me note that I'm not trying to say masks are ineffective. I feel like my posts might read that way... I just don't understand the assumptions that are being made. 

 

I think I am in information overload.  

As best I recall, he said he was wearing a well fit possibly even respirator type mask, but not eye protection, on a cross country flight.  Thus, and drawing from Erin Bromage, the long time of exposure would have also been a factor different than a trip into a store. 

I think I posted it before, but doubt I can find it now. 

If I can find the actual news interview I’ll link it. 

[Pen]

I think also the fact that proper hospital PPE for SARS2 includes goggles or face shield is further evidence that eyes are considered a route for infection. 

 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-warns-newly-discovered-potential-drug-interaction-may-reduce
 

remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine shouldn’t be taken together as the hydroxychloroquine may reduce the effectiveness of the remdesivir according to the FDA.  Doesn’t seem to offer much conclusive evidence but I guess it’s worth knowing? 

[Ausmumof3]

30 minutes ago, Pen said:

I think also the fact that proper hospital PPE for SARS2 includes goggles or face shield is further evidence that eyes are considered a route for infection. 

 

Plus the whistle blower doctor in China and various others supposedly got it through the eyes when not wearing goggles.  Although I would assume it would require fairly close contact to happen that way.

[Arcadia]

@Ausmumof3 New Zealand https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/new-zealand-covid-19-coronavirus-new-cases-12839078

“WELLINGTON: New Zealand said on Tuesday (Jun 16) that it has two new cases of the coronavirus, both related to recent travel from the UK, ending a 24-day streak of no new infections in the country.

New Zealand lifted all social and economic restrictions except border controls last week, after declaring it had no new or active cases of the coronavirus, one of the first countries in the world to return to pre-pandemic normality.

...

The health ministry said the new cases were related to the border as a result of recent travel from the UK. Both cases are connected, it said in a statement.”

[Ausmumof3]

That’s bad news about nz.  Hopefully there aren’t any further cases.

border openings in sa to wa, tas and nt are going ahead as of today.  That’s for people entering the state, other states get to work out when we go their direction obviously.  I think WA still has some active cases.  Public gatherings of up to 300 are being allowed.  I’m assuming that’s outdoors.  Classes will be able to operate with up to 20 but require 7sqm per person.

[Pen]

https://youtu.be/IKbUsn1nK1s

 

DrBeen on B1 Thiamine — and also on removal of YouTube related to vitamin D.  😟

[Ausmumof3]

Beijing

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/beijing-coronavirus-outbreak-travel-restricted-china-severe-measures?__twitter_impression=true

new travel restrictions in place, parts of the city fenced off, sports centres closed.  Officially 107 cases.

[TracyP]

10 hours ago, Tap said:

Because someone may think they are boarding a flight and everyone will be wearing masks, so particulate levels will be low. Hence they skip eye protection. But then they get on board and find out that they are only required most of the time. 

But, but... 🙂 If cloth masks don't protect the wearer in the first place - and I believe that is one thing that is not disputed - then why would wearing eye protection be useful? (Again, in this setting. They are definitely useful in a hospital setting.) I guess if you are flying and can get your hands on a properly fitted N95 (that you wear the entire flight) and you are very concerned, then eye goggles might be another layer of protection. That's not the reality for most of us. 

Having said that, even N95s do not stop 100% of the particles. I'm just not sure that the logical assumption is that the eyes must have been the route of transmission when there could be other explanations. 

Eta: Nevermind me. I just realized something - in my head I'm arguing against a straw man. Nobody here is suggesting that I should wear eye goggles or that they should be required. I won't be wearing them but if anybody here wants to wear them, have at it. 😉

Edited June 16, 2020 by TracyP

[Joker]

https://www.wthr.com/mobile/article/news/health/coronavirus/first-coronavirus-drug-improves-survial/287-22a7698d-26c2-4799-b318-75e237c0b037

Looks like maybe something promising. 

[Ausmumof3]

5 minutes ago, Joker said:

https://www.wthr.com/mobile/article/news/health/coronavirus/first-coronavirus-drug-improves-survial/287-22a7698d-26c2-4799-b318-75e237c0b037

Looks like maybe something promising. 

That does sound very promising!

[Pen]

3 hours ago, TracyP said:

But, but... 🙂 If cloth masks don't protect the wearer in the first place - and I believe that is one thing that is not disputed - then why would wearing eye protection be useful?

Cloth masks can help the wearer, but lesser percentage reduction of virus than when mask is on sick person according to what I have read.

3 hours ago, TracyP said:

 (Again, in this setting. They are definitely useful in a hospital setting.) I guess if you are flying and can get your hands on a properly fitted N95 (that you wear the entire flight) and you are very concerned, then eye goggles might be another layer of protection. That's not the reality for most of us. 

Having said that, even N95s do not stop 100% of the particles. I'm just not sure that the logical assumption is that the eyes must have been the route of transmission when there could be other explanations. 

That is correct, even N99s are not 100%. I am sure There could have been other explanations. 

3 hours ago, TracyP said:

Eta: Nevermind me. I just realized something - in my head I'm arguing against a straw man. Nobody here is suggesting that I should wear eye goggles or that they should be required. I won't be wearing them but if anybody here wants to wear them, have at it. 😉

 

There is a repeated problem when someone tries to answer one very specific question, and the answer is taken and run with to mean all sorts of things it did not mean.  I was not advocating that you wear any eye protection. Afaik I was not replying to you 😊😉

I had replied to a post where there was a situation iirc where not transmitting the virus (or maybe not catching it?) was the important issue. (I cannot now recall the specifics, but say it was someone with a high risk family member, and where the mother had probably been exposed.  Or someone needing to travel on a plane. I don’t recall, but I am quite sure my response was not  to you.  I will post this so it doesn’t vanish and then back up a page or two and see if I can find where I mentioned the doctor on the plane initially and why. And if that results in being able to be more clear here, I’ll return and edit accordingly).  Iirc, I initially mentioned eye protection as an additional help to masking as an answer essentially as to whether just masking alone would give 100% protection against SARS2 transmission.  

So as to the question of is masking alone a 100% protection against SARS2 transmission, the answer is no. I Mentioned the eye protection issue as a help to show that just masking is not 100% perfect, and that in some situations  adding eye protection could help for the individuals involved. 

I absolutely did not mention eye protection as meaning that masks are not very good.   I believe that they are so very very good that we should be having everyone wear one who doesn’t have a medical or age inability to do so.  

Masking, especially if it is close to universal masking, and if the masks are made to try to make them good filtration and fit, people doing the best they can with it for themselves and for their fellow human beings, and also perhaps their fellow mammals, minks, tigers, etc—and can you imagine if we give it to some rodent population like rats and mice and it takes off spreading in cities like a combination of SARS2 and Hantavirus?  All the captive minks on mink farms can be slaughtered. But if SARS2 gets going in an urban or rural free rodent population, I don’t think we could solve that.

 Masks, done as well as people can—not just a slap dash of a 3% filtration fabric to give an appearance of complying with a rule—is a huge, huge, huge, huge help.

I don’t have a percent benefit.  So I just put a lot of “huges”. 

There are a number of studies now to help show this: Mouse study, population studies, the accidental Missouri hairdressers situation, and films of droplets with and without masks.

Masks are Not 100%—but very, very good. 

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Oregon has an outbreak tied to a small, rural county. A church there began holding meetings. Facebook photos show the congregation sitting shoulder to shoulder, unmasked. The same church hosted a testing date. Under 400 tests done, 100ish positive so far, not all processed. 

Previously known cases in county was 22.

Details and firm numbers here: https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/99-new-coronavirus-cases-reported-in-union-county.html

[prairiewindmomma]

22 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

KOMO 4 radio this morning - 5 people in Portland OR with COVID19 attributed to protests.  30 people in Seattle tested positive for COVID19 attributed to protests.  I assume that the participation in protests was information that they provided to certain questions about recent activity?  Anyway - no information as to ages, whether they needed hospitalization etc. so it's not a lot of information but people ask about transmission rates in protests so I found it interesting. 

In PDX, many protesters were wearing masks but then removed them when they were tear-gassed. This was especially true in the early days when things when the police would gas without warning. The PPD moved to declaring unlawful assemblies and waiting at least 20 min before teargassing (most of the time) in part so people would have time to vacate. Finally PPD agreed to only gas to protect lives (I think. I haven’t been able to find the exact wording to verify.)

[TracyP]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

There is a repeated problem when someone tries to answer one very specific question, and the answer is taken and run with to mean all sorts of things it did not mean.

 

Kinda like when somebody questions whether eye protection is really necessary and gets a lengthy response on the benefits of masks, lol.

[Innisfree]

29 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Oregon has an outbreak tied to a small, rural county. A church there began holding meetings. Facebook photos show the congregation sitting shoulder to shoulder, unmasked. The same church hosted a testing date. Under 400 tests done, 100ish positive so far, not all processed. 

Previously known cases in county was 22.

Details and firm numbers here: https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/99-new-coronavirus-cases-reported-in-union-county.html

This kind of thing is so doggone predictable. It makes me angry.

[Jean in Newcastle]

39 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Oregon has an outbreak tied to a small, rural county. A church there began holding meetings. Facebook photos show the congregation sitting shoulder to shoulder, unmasked. The same church hosted a testing date. Under 400 tests done, 100ish positive so far, not all processed. 

Previously known cases in county was 22.

Details and firm numbers here: https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/99-new-coronavirus-cases-reported-in-union-county.html

I always wonder if there is any repentance at all from church leaders who allowed situations like this to happen. Most of the time they seem to just dig in deeper and deny any responsibility. It makes me mad too.

[Pawz4me]

23 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I always wonder if there is any repentance at all from church leaders who allowed situations like this to happen. Most of the time they seem to just dig in deeper and deny any responsibility. It makes me mad too.

Yep. So much for the Golden Rule and the second great commandment, right?

Edited June 16, 2020 by Pawz4me

[Pen]

1 hour ago, TracyP said:

Kinda like when somebody questions whether eye protection is really necessary and gets a lengthy response on the benefits of masks, lol.

😁

I use both mask and eye protection— at least to extent of my regular glasses - -and sometimes also a homemade diy face shield for indoors in public. 

But I don’t currently urge that **you** do the eye protection part, unless you were to give specific circumstances where that would seem like it would be particularly helpful. Like if u were asking how to be as safe as possible in ____ situation, where imo eye protection would be worth mentioning. 

The way the hamster studies were done, afaik, the cages were masked on the sides that faced each other so that that would have given a mask level of protection for any/all mucus membranes.  

Otoh, I presume many of the Missouri hairdresser Clients weren’t wearing eye protection and no one seems to have gotten sick with both parties just masked. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I always wonder if there is any repentance at all from church leaders who allowed situations like this to happen. Most of the time they seem to just dig in deeper and deny any responsibility. It makes me mad too.

I know. I mean, the pastor is the shepherd, right? And a shepherd's big job is to keep his flock safe! This pastor served his flock up to the wolves with a side of barbecue sauce. total and complete failure of leadership. 

He should resign. Period. 

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I know. I mean, the pastor is the shepherd, right? And a shepherd's big job is to keep his flock safe! This pastor served his flock up to the wolves with a side of barbecue sauce. total and complete failure of leadership. 

He should resign. Period. 

 

IME, Some people in some denominations don’t believe the physical world has much value.   

[BeachGal]

There’s a lot of news about the vaccines:

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/06/11/coronavirus-vaccine-update-june-11

Lead scientist Sir John Bell from Oxford thinks all of England could be vaccinated beginning around September and finished by Christmas.

[Pen]

10 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Ok, but what about my pastor? He wears a mask.  His announcement AGAIN this week reiterated how we should look out for others, show courtesy, wear masks, keep your distance.  The virus isn't gone, etc.  Yet when I went to church Sunday there were 3 ( including the head pastor) wearing a mask.  They have the marked off every other end.  In front of us at the other end sat two little old ladies, not masked, not related, sitting right next to each other.  An elderly woman I've known for a long, long time.  Served on a pastor search committee with her a couple of pastors ago. She was like, why is this like this?  I want to sit by my friends.  My husband tried to explain.  She said it wasn't necessary, walked around and her friends got out so she could sit by them.  No masks at all.  I have no doubt they are probably playing 42 together or whatever.

Our music minister is stressing caution as well, though obviously he cannot wear a mask and lead music.

But you say it is the pastor's responsibility.  He is making announcements.  He is talking to people with masks on.  That said our senior adult pastor( not head pastor, part time pastor for senior adults) doesn't wear a mask, despite having 12 stints or something like that.  He was head pastor 40 years ago, left for another church, retired, then came back to supervise senior adults. 

He is getting HEAVY HEAVY pushback for having 2 services to keep people distanced.  People want to worship together again.  In our churc structure, if he continued to do this, it could be conceivable the congregation would ask the personell committee to let him go.

So to blame a pastor for what a congregation does is wrong sometimes. It is community-wide problem not a pastor problem IMO.   It is black, white, Hispanic, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Cowboy, etc.  People around here think life is normal.

 

Using a bubble concept, people could be with a friend ( though with a mask on) in person, so that isolated single people would not have to be all alone. And if masked and in “bubbles” it could still be fairly safe.

I totally agree that it is a problem that is at a populace level. Pastors and other leaders can help by setting a good example, but that’s no guarantee of being followed. It’s also no excuse for setting a bad example.

 

[kbutton]

Meanwhile, this was on my FB feed, unfortunately. As one person pointed out, how can it be every day but also one specific day, lol! People are driving me nuts.

[Pen]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Oregon has an outbreak tied to a small, rural county. A church there began holding meetings. Facebook photos show the congregation sitting shoulder to shoulder, unmasked. The same church hosted a testing date. Under 400 tests done, 100ish positive so far, not all processed. 

Previously known cases in county was 22.

Details and firm numbers here: https://www.oregonlive.com/coronavirus/2020/06/99-new-coronavirus-cases-reported-in-union-county.html

 

Agh.

I Don’t have the words for that. I expect it could happen in many places.

 I wonder how many are symptomatic.

 

I hope it doesn’t get into the La Ronde area Native American population where many may be at extra high risk of serious cases and death.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

22 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

Ok, but what about my pastor? He wears a mask.  His announcement AGAIN this week reiterated how we should look out for others, show courtesy, wear masks, keep your distance.  The virus isn't gone, etc.  Yet when I went to church Sunday there were 3 ( including the head pastor) wearing a mask.  They have the marked off every other end.  In front of us at the other end sat two little old ladies, not masked, not related, sitting right next to each other.  An elderly woman I've known for a long, long time.  Served on a pastor search committee with her a couple of pastors ago. She was like, why is this like this?  I want to sit by my friends.  My husband tried to explain.  She said it wasn't necessary, walked around and her friends got out so she could sit by them.  No masks at all.  I have no doubt they are probably playing 42 together or whatever.

Our music minister is stressing caution as well, though obviously he cannot wear a mask and lead music.

But you say it is the pastor's responsibility.  He is making announcements.  He is talking to people with masks on.  That said our senior adult pastor( not head pastor, part time pastor for senior adults) doesn't wear a mask, despite having 12 stints or something like that.  He was head pastor 40 years ago, left for another church, retired, then came back to supervise senior adults. 

He is getting HEAVY HEAVY pushback for having 2 services to keep people distanced.  People want to worship together again.  In our churc structure, if he continued to do this, it could be conceivable the congregation would ask the personell committee to let him go.

So to blame a pastor for what a congregation does is wrong sometimes. It is community-wide problem not a pastor problem IMO.   It is black, white, Hispanic, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Cowboy, etc.  People around here think life is normal.

I agree. It's super frustrating.

I would say it would be easier if the state mandated mask wearing, so it became an issue of civil compliance, but that doesn't seem to be the key.

Fundamentally, it comes down to selfish behavior and a lack of empathy for others, not "personal freedom". They are personally free to not wear their masks when by themselves, but their not wearing it in public affects others. They are essentially taking away others freedom to choose to safely participate in activities.  

 

[Pen]

1 minute ago, kbutton said:

Meanwhile, this was on my FB feed, unfortunately. As one person pointed out, how can it be every day but also one specific day, lol! People are driving me nuts.

Oh, no. 

If stores try to enforce mask policy I wonder if more violence may occur.

 Thank you for telling me. I will most certainly stay home that day.