Carol in Cal. Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 Here's an article that just came out--thought you might like it: https://sonomasun.com/2019/12/16/farewell-to-a-farmer/?fbclid=IwAR0M977OD4prT2idvzuDdbFga77TGmAPR12l5sQ8g8-0WfdoK_Ywt6pu-qI 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 I think there is a context that matters and isn’t much discussed in parenting as we council our young adult kids. For me, how I would handle this depends greatly on the kid motivations. Is she choosing this path bc it seems the least stressful or the one that requires the least change? Because I would not be okay with that. I tell my kids I want them to run towards their interests and passions not simply avoid change and stress. I think a simple way to find this out is to say that wanting to farm is a great idea and the best way to get a good start at that is to work for a farmer and or study farming with other students. If she is overwhelmed at the prospects, I’d totally be willing to help her look at all her options and be a sounding board for discussing them. If this is really going to be her lifelong passion - she’s going to make a serious effort to work at it. And no matter what, there needs to be a discussion about healthy coping with anxiety. Discuss possible things that might cause anxiety BEFORE they happen. It might not happen at all, but often just working out a game plan for how to cope can prevent anxiety or at least keep it from escalating. Life is often stressful. It can’t be avoided. But it can be coped with. I don’t even know why her being brilliant matters. Brilliant people do stupid things literally all the time. Brilliant people can have character flaws. Brilliant people still need mentorship and guidance and loving support. If she wasn’t brilliant - I don’t think it would change a single answer given in this thread. But anxiety is a real b word that is far more likely to impact her future than her intelligence or interests. Because it will color her concept of her choices in ways that may not be true to reality. Anxiety lies to us every single day so it takes double the effort of others to confirm constantly that what anxiety is telling her may not be true or what is best for her. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 55 minutes ago, Murphy101 said: I don’t think anyone is saying to not help our young adults as best we can. Helping is a far different gamble from tying their livelihood to my house or the land it is on. I think that aspect is very unsustainable in many aspects for most families. And frankly, she will learn a lot more working on someone else’s property and for someone else before trying to launch anything herself. And having the luxury of family support while she works and learns on those jobs is a great gift too. SWB with the TWO masters degrees AND a PhD? SWB with the publishing company? I wonder where she met her husband... college? Oh, definitely! I think she should do some kind of internship or work on another farm before doing this! But I don't see a problem with it being a family venture in other ways, if done well. And I didn't mean the path she mentioned would GET her to Susan Wise Bauer's life - just that she seemed to want that. I also posted that she should look at less traditional colleges, or less competitive environments - find some way to continue education without the anxiety if at all possible. I just didn't put those in the same posts so I can see how it looked like I meant she could just fall right into SWB's life now, rather than taking the long road that SWB did to get there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 50 minutes ago, Murphy101 said: I think there is a context that matters and isn’t much discussed in parenting as we council our young adult kids. For me, how I would handle this depends greatly on the kid motivations. Is she choosing this path bc it seems the least stressful or the one that requires the least change? Because I would not be okay with that. I tell my kids I want them to run towards their interests and passions not simply avoid change and stress. I think a simple way to find this out is to say that wanting to farm is a great idea and the best way to get a good start at that is to work for a farmer and or study farming with other students. If she is overwhelmed at the prospects, I’d totally be willing to help her look at all her options and be a sounding board for discussing them. If this is really going to be her lifelong passion - she’s going to make a serious effort to work at it. And no matter what, there needs to be a discussion about healthy coping with anxiety. Discuss possible things that might cause anxiety BEFORE they happen. It might not happen at all, but often just working out a game plan for how to cope can prevent anxiety or at least keep it from escalating. Life is often stressful. It can’t be avoided. But it can be coped with. I don’t even know why her being brilliant matters. Brilliant people do stupid things literally all the time. Brilliant people can have character flaws. Brilliant people still need mentorship and guidance and loving support. If she wasn’t brilliant - I don’t think it would change a single answer given in this thread. But anxiety is a real b word that is far more likely to impact her future than her intelligence or interests. Because it will color her concept of her choices in ways that may not be true to reality. Anxiety lies to us every single day so it takes double the effort of others to confirm constantly that what anxiety is telling her may not be true or what is best for her. "Brilliant" as used by Attolia, along with her other details, matters to me and the advice I gave. If she gave the *opposite* characteristics...average student, struggles academically, in basic or remedial high school classes...I would hope other people would give advice related to those details, too. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 22 hours ago, SBauer said: Oh do I ever relate to her! I dropped out of high school as a promising student (not as gifted as her mind you) at the beginning of my junior year. I began advocating for my education myself. I found a correspondence school, a tutor, and took some community college classes. I wanted to be a self-sufficient farmer/rancher, I spent much of my time dreaming, researching, and making lists about it. My psychiatrist's basic response was that I was hiding in a dream outside of reality. Now, I fully understand where he is coming from, as a successful suburban doctor, but he was wrong. God has put this amazing desire in my heart and I'm still working out how it all fits together. I went to college because I didn't know any other way to learn how to become a farmer. I left Illinois and went to a state university in the west. It was SO different. I felt different directing myself and choosing what I wanted to learn. I ended up taking Agriculture and Home Ec in high school instead of honors physics. I moved back to Illinois and I own a large organic farm and ranch. My husband and I sell grassfed freezer meat. I have a garden and an orchard. I have begun a master's degree in clinical herbalism and a permaculture certification class. It is HARD. I feel defeated A LOT, no matter how successful that sounded. BUT I still want it, this very real delicate balance of everyday, fighting for our most basic needs. She can learn everything she needs to know in more than one way. College is one of many, and does not have to start full time at 18. I highly encourage you to try to bring her to LaCrosse, Wisconsin this February to the MOSES Organic conference, even if you don't live in the Mid West because it is old, huge, well-planned, and formidable!. You missed Acres-USA (more national) the first week of December. She can learn from these folks what she needs to learn, how to find the information, where to go next. Listen to her as she chooses which round table discussions she wants to go to, or which "track" seems best to follow through the conference, and try to give her your best advise about which sessions sound good, also get some from the people working there, they do this for a living. Let me know if I can answer any other questions. I live this, and I did live this, I totally know what it is like, and I love to help people with this kind of thing. I think if you went to this conference you may see the amazing "revolution" she can take part in and lend her intelligence in a way that will help impact the world, while at the same time following her passion. You will never have to feel like she took "second" or last chair to being something "upstanding" to become a dirt farmer (my dad's words). 2 hours ago, Ktgrok said: Just realized she's describing Susan Wise Bauer - hobby farm and writing career! Did you see the above post? Hmmmm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 Just now, unsinkable said: "Brilliant" as used by Attolia, along with her other details, matters to me and the advice I gave. If she gave the *opposite* characteristics...average student, struggles academically, in basic or remedial high school classes...I would hope other people would give advice related to those details, too. I am not saying her child’s brilliance doesn’t matter. I’m saying it likely, to me anyways, is not a factor in THIS problem. And really it factors a heck of a lot less than people think it does. Because brilliance does not determine what we want out of life or even if we can attain what we want. For example, a brilliance woman may want to be a wife and mother. I don’t think that’s a waste of her brilliance. But I also don’t think it makes much difference to her chances of being a wife and mother. Same goes for farming. Or chemistry. Or many other things. One doesn’t have to be brilliant to do most things. But some can do ordinary things brilliantly. But anxiety? That screws everyone up is far more likely to be a major factor in this decision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, Scarlett said: Did you see the above post? Hmmmm Good eye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said: I am not saying her child’s brilliance doesn’t matter. I’m saying it likely, to me anyways, is not a factor in THIS problem. And really it factors a heck of a lot less than people think it does. Because brilliance does not determine what we want out of life or even if we can attain what we want. For example, a brilliance woman may want to be a wife and mother. I don’t think that’s a waste of her brilliance. But I also don’t think it makes much difference to her chances of being a wife and mother. Same goes for farming. Or chemistry. Or many other things. One doesn’t have to be brilliant to do most things. But some can do ordinary things brilliantly. But anxiety? That screws everyone up is far more likely to be a major factor in this decision. You literally said, " If she wasn’t brilliant - I don’t think it would change a single answer given in this thread.." And I'm saying it would change my answer... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 Just now, unsinkable said: You literally said, " If she wasn’t brilliant - I don’t think it would change a single answer given in this thread.." And I'm saying it would change my answer... okay. I happily sit here corrected. If I read the response as has insulted then I am happily corrected on that as well. My response to that was to clarify I didn’t intend it as an insult. I would be curious to know how you would change your response if all else the same, but no mention of brilliance was included? Chances are good that someone reading doesn’t have a brilliant child and would find that helpful too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, Murphy101 said: okay. I happily sit here corrected. If I read the response as has insulted then I am happily corrected on that as well. My response to that was to clarify I didn’t intend it as an insult. I would be curious to know how you would change your response if all else the same, but no mention of brilliance was included? Chances are good that someone reading doesn’t have a brilliant child and would find that helpful too. You'd want to know how to differently prepare an academically brilliant student who is burnt out with school vs a student who isn't brilliant who is burnt out with school. I don't know, Martha. You've been here a long time, and you have almost a dozen kids...nearly half of whom you graduated. I feel like I'd be carrying coal to Newcastle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 I do think society and college marketing materials and teen peers spread this notion that those deemed traditionally brilliant by the hoop jumping required at rigorous B&M schools and a narrow test like the ACT need to walk down a very particular path to use their gifts and be successful and they owe it to the world to solve the worlds problems blah blah. I just think that is so far from actually true. There really are academically gifted folks in every CC and directional college and in blue collar jobs. Having my kid who is a lot like OP's kid academically attend a 60% pell grant urban public CC through dual enrollment was a huge eye opener. I don't think you can pigeon hole people. Everyone has their own story. And my similar kid is having a fantastic experience at a state flagship where he has found no shortage of nerdy high achieving academically minded peers. I have 2 grandmothers and a mother who are obviously brilliant but never attended college. They all found opportunities and worked and were life long learners. I am first gen female college grad. None had the family support or finances to attend college. There are many reasons why someone might not want or be able to pursue higher education or pursue it on a different time table or in an unconventional format. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 28, 2019 Share Posted December 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Murphy101 said: I don’t think anyone is saying to not help our young adults as best we can. Helping is a far different gamble from tying their livelihood to my house or the land it is on. I think that aspect is very unsustainable in many aspects for most families. And frankly, she will learn a lot more working on someone else’s property and for someone else before trying to launch anything herself. And having the luxury of family support while she works and learns on those jobs is a great gift too. I think it’s very hard to know what the situation is for any particular family, property, location. Expectation that all kids move on to own homes is probably a relatively recent development—and in rural areas such as I am, kids taking over properties from parents or working together in family businesses which could include farming is probably still common and doesn’t seem very weird. And sometimes kids do start farm type activities at parental home, even if the parents didn’t do that. For their family maybe it would be bad. or maybe it would ge good perhaps instead of it being one child using the house and land, both sisters and the mom would join into a business and make a go of it... probably care would be needed to not get into difficulties, but things like huge cloche style greenhouses can be moved... fruit trees can’t easily be moved, but if a sale happens they likely raise value of property and that benefit could be equitably distributed... Check out USDA beginning farmer grants 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 11 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said: I do think society and college marketing materials and teen peers spread this notion that those deemed traditionally brilliant by the hoop jumping required at rigorous B&M schools and a narrow test like the ACT need to walk down a very particular path to use their gifts and be successful and they owe it to the world to solve the worlds problems blah blah. I just think that is so far from actually true. There really are academically gifted folks in every CC and directional college and in blue collar jobs. Having my kid who is a lot like OP's kid academically attend a 60% pell grant urban public CC through dual enrollment was a huge eye opener. I don't think you can pigeon hole people. Everyone has their own story. And my similar kid is having a fantastic experience at a state flagship where he has found no shortage of nerdy high achieving academically minded peers. I have 2 grandmothers and a mother who are obviously brilliant but never attended college. They all found opportunities and worked and were life long learners. I am first gen female college grad. None had the family support or finances to attend college. There are many reasons why someone might not want or be able to pursue higher education or pursue it on a different time table or in an unconventional format. An academically brilliant student could graduate at 16, take a couple years off and start a truck farm, then decide she wants to go to college, study for a few months and CLEP out of a semester's or 2s worth of classes... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Scarlett said: Did you see the above post? Hmmmm ooh, I didn't realize who that was! An inspiration post that gave me goosebumps, honestly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said: ooh, I didn't realize who that was! An inspiration post that gave me goosebumps, honestly. who is it? it isn't our SWB...that poster says she lives on a large organic farm in IL...and other biographical details don't match up with SWB...unless I missed a lot of info along the way somehow 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 1 minute ago, unsinkable said: who is it? it isn't our SWB...that poster says she lives on a large organic farm in IL...and other biographical details don't match up with SWB...unless I missed a lot of info along the way somehow oh. Hmm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meriwether Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 My Dd16 is bright, rather than brilliant and has other areas of interest. She is nationally competitive in her sport. She is also not materialistic. She hopes to be a SAHM and raise and homeschool a large family. I want her to have a degree. She wants to attend college. I wouldn't force her to go if she didn't, but I would encourage it. She may not marry. Her spouse may be unable to work for some reason. She is the kind of person who could easily get a job - she has 3 jobs now and only applied for one of them. I want her to be able to earn decent wages if she has to work outside home, and I feel like a degree could help with that. If she ends up in the town where we live, I could see her working at the dojo. She would be asked, for sure. She wouldn't need a degree for that, but she could use a business degree if she opens one of her own. (She currently wants to be a librarian. She works in a library and enjoys it, but I could really see her teaching martial arts.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Is her high school that stressful, or is she a person who has trouble managing stress? There are some schools/districts that are such a rat race that kids actually get a bit MORE breathing room when the go to college. I know my own dd got more sleep because our district is a bit insane about the hours these kids were expected to work. If it's not really situational, and she has the personality type that will suffer from anxiety no matter what she's doing, that would change how I'd advise her. School IS stressful, but is it more stressful than having the adult responsibility to support yourself and pay your own bills? If she opts out of school will she also have the choice to opt out of the world of working responsibility? Where will the money come from to establish new gardens on the OP's property? How will she react if half of her plants fail the first year? Is there a plan to launch her if she becomes comfortably ensconced at home where her bills are taken care of? Some people need a break and some people need to maintain their momentum. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 1 hour ago, unsinkable said: You'd want to know how to differently prepare an academically brilliant student who is burnt out with school vs a student who isn't brilliant who is burnt out with school. I don't know, Martha. You've been here a long time, and you have almost a dozen kids...nearly half of whom you graduated. I feel like I'd be carrying coal to Newcastle. Why would you think that? I don’t know everything and all my kids are very individual personalities. I said I am curious how your advice would change bc I am sincerely interested. There was zero snark in my query. Maybe you have an insight that I have not thought of that would be helpful to either my supposedly brilliant children or my supposedly normal children. I tend to have an educating perspective that I’m educating their minds but I’m counseling and guiding their hearts. From that POV, brilliance is not a factor in goal setting. There is no moral imperative or bias against being a farmer or a mother, so at that point my guidance becomes how can I support them to achieve this in a manner that protects their person (in this case mental health) and safe-guards relationship hazards (in this case the possible perils of tying the entire family home to their endeavor)? 1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said: I do think society and college marketing materials and teen peers spread this notion that those deemed traditionally brilliant by the hoop jumping required at rigorous B&M schools and a narrow test like the ACT need to walk down a very particular path to use their gifts and be successful and they owe it to the world to solve the worlds problems blah blah. I just think that is so far from actually true. There really are academically gifted folks in every CC and directional college and in blue collar jobs. Having my kid who is a lot like OP's kid academically attend a 60% pell grant urban public CC through dual enrollment was a huge eye opener. I don't think you can pigeon hole people. Everyone has their own story. And my similar kid is having a fantastic experience at a state flagship where he has found no shortage of nerdy high achieving academically minded peers. I have 2 grandmothers and a mother who are obviously brilliant but never attended college. They all found opportunities and worked and were life long learners. I am first gen female college grad. None had the family support or finances to attend college. There are many reasons why someone might not want or be able to pursue higher education or pursue it on a different time table or in an unconventional format. I agree with everything you wrote here. 1 hour ago, Pen said: 52 minutes ago, unsinkable said: An academically brilliant student could graduate at 16, take a couple years off and start a truck farm, then decide she wants to go to college, study for a few months and CLEP out of a semester's or 2s worth of classes... People who are not academically brilliant also do that. In fact most who do that are not considered brilliant. It’s a great. option for many people. However farming is not a desk job. An online program is not likely to be ag related beyond basic general ed classes. Personally I would strongly urge my kid to go get dirty and sore working at an actual farm. There’s wonderful options that will teach her a lot more about whether this is what she really wants. I think combining a farm job with taking pt time online classes would be a fabulous compromise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, Murphy101 said: Why would you think that? I don’t know everything and all my kids are very individual personalities. I said I am curious how your advice would change bc I am sincerely interested. There was zero snark in my query. Maybe you have an insight that I have not thought of that would be helpful to either my supposedly brilliant children or my supposedly normal children. I tend to have an educating perspective that I’m educating their minds but I’m counseling and guiding their hearts. From that POV, brilliance is not a factor in goal setting. There is no moral imperative or bias against being a farmer or a mother, so at that point my guidance becomes how can I support them to achieve this in a manner that protects their person (in this case mental health) and safe-guards relationship hazards (in this case the possible perils of tying the entire family home to their endeavor)? I agree with everything you wrote here. People who are not academically brilliant also do that. In fact most who do that are not considered brilliant. It’s a great. option for many people. However farming is not a desk job. An online program is not likely to be ag related beyond basic general ed classes. Personally I would strongly urge my kid to go get dirty and sore working at an actual farm. There’s wonderful options that will teach her a lot more about whether this is what she really wants. I think combining a farm job with taking pt time online classes would be a fabulous compromise. I don't know what's going on...but I literally said, "Start a truck farm." have a great night! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) I am not saying this to be snarky, but, you took your daughter to a counselor to try to figure out why she does not want to go to college right now, but have you considered seeing one to find out why it is so important to you that your daughter goes to college and goes right now? You seem quite focused on how successful she is on paper, her grades, her scholarship at the school, the ranking of her older sister's school and the possibility that she could go to same school, etc. You also seem to equate her career choice with some sort of proof of your success as a parent and farming and motherhood just does not cut it for you. I think at this point, it would be more worth your time to figure out why it is so important to you and what you can do to change how you are handling this. Edited December 29, 2019 by Janeway 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said: Is her high school that stressful, or is she a person who has trouble managing stress? There are some schools/districts that are such a rat race that kids actually get a bit MORE breathing room when the go to college. I know my own dd got more sleep because our district is a bit insane about the hours these kids were expected to work. If it's not really situational, and she has the personality type that will suffer from anxiety no matter what she's doing, that would change how I'd advise her. School IS stressful, but is it more stressful than having the adult responsibility to support yourself and pay your own bills? If she opts out of school will she also have the choice to opt out of the world of working responsibility? Where will the money come from to establish new gardens on the OP's property? How will she react if half of her plants fail the first year? Is there a plan to launch her if she becomes comfortably ensconced at home where her bills are taken care of? Some people need a break and some people need to maintain their momentum. Yes, I was wondering this, too as the parent of a bright but not brilliant daughter with anxiety. She struggles when she is on vacation with no expectations, and she struggles at school in her engineering program (though she is earning good grades). She was almost undone by a simple online English class in high school when she had a light load, and she’s a good writer. As she wisely said to me recently, “Mom, I seem to just find something that stresses me out no matter what. If it’s not coming from outside of me, my mind makes it for me.” She chose to go right to college and do a tough program, though we are strongly encouraging her to keep her credit hours on the light side. She is stressed and anxious, but she was also stressed and anxious the summer before starting when she had nothing on her plate. And yes, she is in intensive therapy. Anxiety can be situational, caused by outside pressures and relieved when those pressures are removed, but it can also be global, affecting many aspects of their lives. People with anxiety often avoid things thinking they’ll feel better, but often the avoidance is just part of the cycle. I don’t know if your daughter really will be happier not going to college. It’s certainly possible, but it is also possible that anxiety will be something she struggles with whether she goes or not. It’s clear she thinks she would be happier not going, and she needs to make those decisions for herself, but as a parent I would be doing my utmost to sort out the role anxiety is playing here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnwife Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Being brilliant, she's been told all her life how brilliant she is, and how she can do anything she wants. So now she believes that everything is as easy as it has been for her so far. She does not have respect for how hard of a lifestyle farming is and how brutal it can be. Hobby farming is just that, a hobby to pursue, a lifestyle that we consume, with resources earned elsewhere. Much like being an amateur skier, video game player, etc. Small farming is a business, just like any other small business. Of course a starting small farm may not be profitable, but after a certain number of years, it will fail, or be considered a hobby farm with no expectation of profit. I point out that difference in the example of land within commuting distance of Starbucks, fairly unrealistic to expect to buy such land and start a farm from scratch, and if it's not paying it's way, then it's a hobby, which is fine if you have the income to sustain that lifestyle, or feel that is a good use of your child's time. If it was my 16 year old, I would be FINE with supporting them like that for several years, if I could. I WOULD be clear that it was not sustainable. I believe an uncle supported his daughters horse hobby/business for a several years, and folded it when appropriate, I believe she is now back in operation under her own control. Several people have suggested various blogs, farm experiences, books, internships etc. I mentioned internship also, I meant PAID internship only, not supporting a "service industry" based on unpaid internship labor (polyface etc.) and not trying to compete in the lifestyle promotion blog field (unless you're honest about what you're trying to do). IF she wants to learn about production agriculture (even small scale organic) then the way to do it is to find a farm that is selling produce, not it's experience. The easy way to tell the difference is that they will be looking for workers, they will be paying above minimum wage with a season end bonus, many of the employees will not speak english, etc. Some people are confused about what a business plan is. Just because you have help, doesn't mean you don't have a business plan. But having your parents help you is not a business plan. They're different things. Just like winning the lottery is not a business plan. But winning the lottery does not prevent you from creating a business plan. Parental support is more closely associated with business success than lottery winning is, perhaps parental indulgence is equally not associated with business success as lottery winning is (???) I'm not against helping, I'm trying to point out what is realistic, and what isn't. Not many brilliant farm kids would say, I don't want to go to college, I think I'll be New York real estate developer instead, or I don't want to go to college I'll be an actor instead. This is basically what this person is doing. There are lots of realistic ways to get into farming, in fact there are programs to match up retiring farmers with aspiring successors. Many farmer's children grow up to get jobs off the farm and have no interest in coming home to take over. They don't simply hand over the farm on land contract, they work together for years, develop experience and trust, and come up with a transition plan. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 18 minutes ago, barnwife said: Being brilliant, she's been told all her life how brilliant she is, and how she can do anything she wants. So now she believes that everything is as easy as it has been for her so far. She does not have respect for how hard of a lifestyle farming is and how brutal it can be. Hobby farming is just that, a hobby to pursue, a lifestyle that we consume, with resources earned elsewhere. Much like being an amateur skier, video game player, etc. Small farming is a business, just like any other small business. Of course a starting small farm may not be profitable, but after a certain number of years, it will fail, or be considered a hobby farm with no expectation of profit. I point out that difference in the example of land within commuting distance of Starbucks, fairly unrealistic to expect to buy such land and start a farm from scratch, and if it's not paying it's way, then it's a hobby, which is fine if you have the income to sustain that lifestyle, or feel that is a good use of your child's time. If it was my 16 year old, I would be FINE with supporting them like that for several years, if I could. I WOULD be clear that it was not sustainable. I believe an uncle supported his daughters horse hobby/business for a several years, and folded it when appropriate, I believe she is now back in operation under her own control. Several people have suggested various blogs, farm experiences, books, internships etc. I mentioned internship also, I meant PAID internship only, not supporting a "service industry" based on unpaid internship labor (polyface etc.) and not trying to compete in the lifestyle promotion blog field (unless you're honest about what you're trying to do). IF she wants to learn about production agriculture (even small scale organic) then the way to do it is to find a farm that is selling produce, not it's experience. The easy way to tell the difference is that they will be looking for workers, they will be paying above minimum wage with a season end bonus, many of the employees will not speak english, etc. Some people are confused about what a business plan is. Just because you have help, doesn't mean you don't have a business plan. But having your parents help you is not a business plan. They're different things. Just like winning the lottery is not a business plan. But winning the lottery does not prevent you from creating a business plan. Parental support is more closely associated with business success than lottery winning is, perhaps parental indulgence is equally not associated with business success as lottery winning is (???) I'm not against helping, I'm trying to point out what is realistic, and what isn't. Not many brilliant farm kids would say, I don't want to go to college, I think I'll be New York real estate developer instead, or I don't want to go to college I'll be an actor instead. This is basically what this person is doing. There are lots of realistic ways to get into farming, in fact there are programs to match up retiring farmers with aspiring successors. Many farmer's children grow up to get jobs off the farm and have no interest in coming home to take over. They don't simply hand over the farm on land contract, they work together for years, develop experience and trust, and come up with a transition plan. I don’t understand. Are you an unhappy organic farmer and feeling like your life is too brutal? Trying to steer op to steer her dd another direction? Or you feel like the child is saying she wants to be a farmer, but that you are pretty sure it’s just empty talk? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnwife Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 I'm neither a commercial farmer nor organic. My life is rarely brutal. I have seen lots of unprepared beginning organic farmers flame out, often losing a marriage and/or a ton of money in the process. I've known several organic farmers back in the day who became quite successful. I've had contact with aspiring farmers and tried to steer them to these successful farms to learn something. I would never call it "empty talk", I don't know the child or mother, I will gladly give my opinion on the reasonableness of the info presented. I'm not even sure which direction I'm steering? Definitely against confusing the social media farming lifestyle image with profitable, production agriculture. I don't think I'm steering for or against college, or for social media celebrity vs commercial farmer vs lifestyle services. If this child is 16, then my judgements might be too harsh. Would you rather I be only positive? Do you feel I should keep my negative concerns to myself? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 13 hours ago, Attolia said: I think you've hit what we are thinking more than most, so I will use your posts to expound. You are right, she has to figure this out. I just need to be supportive. I need to give her space to think through it rather than problem solve alongside her. thanks for the reminder ❤️ She doesn't want a large scale farm. Not at all. She wants a small organic farm with veggies, turkeys, chickens, micro greens, herbs, etc. She has good plans and thoughts. I think we've talked about our dd's before and I am afraid college will be destructive to my dd as well. She wants to be in a healthy place and academic environments bring her so much anxiety (even though outwardly she succeeds). She doesn't like who she is as a person within academics. She has no peace. She said she'd rather work at Starbucks part time and start a farm/business than go to college. Starbucks gives medical benefits to part time employees. She is a very talented writer. She wants to blog. We have already bought a domain, but haven't developed it yet. She started an instagram and Facebook page. She wants to put her name out there via writing and photography and sharing her story. I have another suggestion, and that's to consider how you know when it's a *problem* vs. a difference. If she works at Starbucks part time and pursues other ventures, is it a PROBLEM? To me, things that *would* be a problem? -not problem solving, saying she's going to do such and such but not having the executive function and gump and whatever to follow through -not growing in ways to improve how she handles responsibility, how she takes responsibility for her mental health, etc. -not finishing things. If you talk with people who hire people, one of the BIG things about a college grad is that they can FINISH things. There is a basic level of competency the employer expects (writing, etc) and then just that ability to FINISH. But some people get that other paths, and some people go back to college later. So that's why I listed those 3 things. And I think my challenge, as the parent, would be to challenge her to continue to find options for her anxiety. There are SO many innovative things now, from CBT to mindfulness to running genetics to understanding the chemistry of it. She can have some responsibility there and it can be thrown in her court to work on her mental health. Fwiw, it's possible that if she got the body part under control, she might be able to tolerate some college some where. And by some college, I don't mean the name on the door but the amount. Like maybe part time, kwim? Maybe not Ivy League. You know, maybe just aim for an associates, kwim? It could be a challenge to herself, could she get her mental health in order (by her own research) to be able to get an associates? And it's not that she *has* to go get some certificate or associates, but it could be a challenge to herself just to see where she could get her mental health to and to figure out what is going on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 3 hours ago, barnwife said: Being brilliant, she's been told all her life how brilliant she is, and how she can do anything she wants. So now she believes that everything is as easy as it has been for her so far. She does not have respect for how hard of a lifestyle farming is and how brutal it can be. I’m not sure this is fair or accurate. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Depending on how this fits (or doesn't fit) with the anxiety, I would consider taking baby steps towards these interests. Because she's been successful academically, it was always assumed college was in her future - maybe even selective, high ranking college. But she doesn't want the high stress, super achieving route. That's totally fine. But rather than assume the pendulum has to shift completely to the other end of the spectrum, why not take baby steps. Take 1 D/E class this spring (if it's not too late). Get a part time job at Starbucks. Make a plan for hands on work on the land at home for the spring. Plan to continue this pattern into next year - 1 or 2 D/E classes each semester, plus Starbucks, plus gardening/hands on projects at home (or whatever combination works with her anxiety). This gives her an opportunity to gain perspective, turn the focus away from academics towards her goal (plus work experience), and buys her time before you graduate her. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 12 hours ago, unsinkable said: An academically brilliant student could graduate at 16, take a couple years off and start a truck farm, then decide she wants to go to college, study for a few months and CLEP out of a semester's or 2s worth of classes... This is along the lines of what I was thinking, she is still young, what she does now doesn't have to be what she does for the rest of her life, I had no clue at 18 even and switched majors multiple times. She has a lifetime of buckling down and being an adult ahead of her and already has spent precious time and energy pushing to the max, slowing down and exploring this side isn't a bad thing. She can do something on a small scale with little money. And doing it small scale allows for her to continue her homeschool at a more relaxed pace, giving her a feel for if it might be right for her future. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, soror said: This is along the lines of what I was thinking, she is still young, what she does now doesn't have to be what she does for the rest of her life, I had no clue at 18 even and switched majors multiple times. She has a lifetime of buckling down and being an adult ahead of her and already has spent precious time and energy pushing to the max, slowing down and exploring this side isn't a bad thing. She can do something on a small scale with little money. And doing it small scale allows for her to continue her homeschool at a more relaxed pace, giving her a feel for if it might be right for her future. I am glad you wrote this. I had been thinking...pushing kids! 16! 17! years old! to "figure it out" I think can lead to so much pressure and anxiety in and of itself. I think of 16/17 year olds as very young in many ways...yes, some are driven, dedicated, single-minded...But just as many AREN'T. With my parents dead, when I was a teenager, I was FORCED to "figure it out" school, life, my future...all of it, alone, no input. It sucked. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alisoncooks Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 I didn't read all the replies (so my apologies if this is redundant or irrelevant) but my local community college has a growing sustainability farming/green building program. The students who are in the ag program tend a small farm/large garden and learn about methods and such, with hands on experience. Maybe something like that would be beneficial. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 13 hours ago, Janeway said: I am not saying this to be snarky, but, you took your daughter to a counselor to try to figure out why she does not want to go to college right now, but have you considered seeing one to find out why it is so important to you that your daughter goes to college and goes right now? You seem quite focused on how successful she is on paper, her grades, her scholarship at the school, the ranking of her older sister's school and the possibility that she could go to same school, etc. You also seem to equate her career choice with some sort of proof of your success as a parent and farming and motherhood just does not cut it for you. I think at this point, it would be more worth your time to figure out why it is so important to you and what you can do to change how you are handling this. Wow, what a way to read between the lines of my original post!?!?! Where did I say that I was over-the-top struggling with this? I asked for ideas for how to support her in this. Please re-read my post and then read my comments along the way as well. The huge benefit in going now is only that I am sure she could get a full ride (or close to it) somewhere. She doesn't have to go to Duke. I have told her this time and time again. I have encouraged her to look at local schools that aren't so high paced. I have suggested the state school with a strong ag program. My greatest concern is that she won't be self supporting and then will always struggle financially and be dependent on us or working long hours in jobs that pay very little and hate it. I am fully aware that she can change her mind and go to college later but it will be more difficult than right out of high school. I am also slightly concerned that she is choosing a path that feels easier and less anxiety ridden to her when in fact if she has anxiety it will manifest in many ways regardless of her path. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, Attolia said: My greatest concern is that she won't be self supporting and then will always struggle financially and be dependent on us or working long hours in jobs that pay very little and hate it. Fwiw, that part of your worry is normal to the age. That's where I really have to stop and take a deep breath and slow down as a mom, kwim? 6 minutes ago, Attolia said: I am also slightly concerned that she is choosing a path that feels easier and less anxiety ridden to her when in fact if she has anxiety it will manifest in many ways regardless of her path. The best thing you can do to help that not happen is continue to help her GROW in her skills of problem solving and self-care. I don't think a very bright person will be satisfied if *nothing* in their life satisfies their needs for stimulation, creativity, etc. However that doesn't it has to be WORK. There are some books you might consider with her, things like Do What You Are: Discover the Perfect Career for You Through the Secrets of Personality Type Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking and possibly do career testing through the local cc. If she enrolls for DE (or maybe even is a prospective student?), she can do the career testing they offer for FREE!! My dd had a strong interest in a very hands on field (costuming), which we supported all through high school. She wanted to major in it, but when she did her career testing (which is what she knows about herself correlated to satisfaction data, but still), turns out she doesn't really want to "tech" a lot. They had categories of work (with your hands, with numbers, etc.), and her scores indicating she'd enjoy working a job with her hands were *low*. And we're like fine, you might like something, but that doesn't mean you want to do it all day. You need to figure out how you intersect with this and what your other skills are. That might be a HOBBY for you or a side. 2 hours ago, soror said: This is along the lines of what I was thinking, she is still young, what she does now doesn't have to be what she does for the rest of her life, I had no clue at 18 even and switched majors multiple times. She has a lifetime of buckling down and being an adult ahead of her and already has spent precious time and energy pushing to the max, slowing down and exploring this side isn't a bad thing. She can do something on a small scale with little money. And doing it small scale allows for her to continue her homeschool at a more relaxed pace, giving her a feel for if it might be right for her future. I think this is so wise. She can explore, try things on a small scale, while you help her diversify and understand herself better. This is an exploration stage. 12 minutes ago, Attolia said: I am also slightly concerned that she is choosing a path that feels easier and less anxiety ridden to her when in fact if she has anxiety it will manifest in many ways regardless of her path. So this is sort of a hard one. If you feel like that's not being willing to do hard things, that's interesting. And there's an argument to it, like take meds (and you can explore with a doctor how many it would take, this is really no joke to say it could take multiple, stacked, months to get stable, and still not be enough), and say tough it out, college is worth it. Since that's what dd is doing, toughing it out, I'm not saying that's a wrong choice. But given that she's a thinking person, that might need to be HER choice. There's another protective path, like this is what I can do with the level of disability (which mental health issues are, a disability) and what I'm willing to do about it or have access to do about it. That *can* be healthy. For instance, there are people who do better employed at say Target. They get hours, meaning to their life, friends, the value of work, structure, and their anxiety is LOW. And we're talking about fabulously high IQ people. This happens. The anxiety she's dealing with that affects her in school will still be there in the work place. Our state has an office for job services for people with disabilities, and you can get qualified under anxiety. I'm looking at whether dd will qualify. I don't know, but reality is you can have a level of disability with your anxiety, in spite of IQ, that reality is the employer needs to be prepared to handle that. What would be WAY worse (to my mind, as a parent, just me) is getting fired from jobs or quitting jobs over it. But to go into a reasonable job or take on doable jobs or go through an office that is helping you get accommodations, so the person finishes and has success, I'm cool with that, kwim? Success breeds success. You don't care what she's doing probably, so long as she finishes what she starts and has some success. I think there are really valid questions, like what happens if she DE online vs. being in a class. AP is such a freakish system, what happens if she DE vs. AP? These are valid questions. Like on that business math she wants, what happens if she does that at the cc or online as DE? One thing, not many, and in an area of high interest. And what happens if she goes to their student services with her paper trail and talks accommodations? ANY service regular students have access to, she will have access to, including mental health/counseling, academic coaching, testing accommodations, etc. Anxiety is covered under the ADA so having paper trail and learning how to self-advocate and say this is what I need to function, that's a big win. It's not just about academics, because the skills transfer to the rest of life. She needs to be able to walk into a Bible study and say why it's not working for her and what she needs or into a restaurant or wherever. Some kids really blossom with work. Competency and success are just great things for them. So succeeding at a small scale can be really good. Is there anything compounding the anxiety? Anything that is suspected but not addressed? There can be thyroid, vitamin D, ADHD, etc. going on. IQ has nothing to do with any of those. For some kids anxiety improves on ADHD meds because you improve function, competency. I just think it's interesting how much she's willing to work on this herself. That's a really good sign. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmseB Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Attolia said: Wow, what a way to read between the lines of my original post!?!?! Where did I say that I was over-the-top struggling with this? I asked for ideas for how to support her in this. Please re-read my post and then read my comments along the way as well. The huge benefit in going now is only that I am sure she could get a full ride (or close to it) somewhere. She doesn't have to go to Duke. I have told her this time and time again. I have encouraged her to look at local schools that aren't so high paced. I have suggested the state school with a strong ag program. My greatest concern is that she won't be self supporting and then will always struggle financially and be dependent on us or working long hours in jobs that pay very little and hate it. I am fully aware that she can change her mind and go to college later but it will be more difficult than right out of high school. I am also slightly concerned that she is choosing a path that feels easier and less anxiety ridden to her when in fact if she has anxiety it will manifest in many ways regardless of her path. I think something about this is that some people have to experience it to know they don't want it (or find out they thrive on it). They have to have a season of doing "grunt work" to realize they want to work their way out of that sort of thing. I saw this a lot in the military; in fact my DH was one of those people. Going in lower enlisted, doing all the crap jobs and then going to college to get out of doing those things. I know a family who deliberately steers their kids towards summer jobs in ag or other manual labor type things for this reason. I think in many ways, having a season of working long hours in a hard job can be really good for young people. Also, I wouldn't assume college will be more difficult a bit removed from HS. A little maturity and perspective (for some kids) goes a long way in bettering their college experience and helping them be better learners. Edited December 29, 2019 by EmseB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 I wonder whether you have looked into whether her anxiety rises to the level of a disability? There are some advantages, I understand, in filing for disability before coming of age, if so. I don't know enough about this to advise you specifically, but I have heard enough here and there to think that this is worth exploring. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, PeterPan said: Is there anything compounding the anxiety? Anything that is suspected but not addressed? There can be thyroid, vitamin D, ADHD, etc. going on. IQ has nothing to do with any of those. For some kids anxiety improves on ADHD meds because you improve function, competency. I just think it's interesting how much she's willing to work on this herself. That's a really good sign. Thanks for all of your wonderful thoughts. When I had her see a counselor upon leaving school (3-4 sessions) the counselor said that she didn't see general anxiety symptoms in dd. She wasn't a worry wort as a child. DD went into school in 8th grade fine, she succeeded and became the best of the best, the top of the top. After received so much recognition at the end of 8th grade, she gained a ton of anxiety and began overworking to keep that status. She was afraid to lose what she had gained and she struggled with imposter syndrome (what if they all find out I am not actually smart). She would stay up until 2 am studying and overworking to keep a standing that she had gained without the anxiety. The counselor said she needed out of that environment, that it was toxic for dd. I was really torn with which was better - to let her work through and get over the need to over achieve or to pull her out. When she got so sick, we just had to pull her. DD tends to be nostalgic and does have some fear of the unknowns of the future. I think these are just basic fears that we all struggle with though and not over the top. We are trying to help her relax and trust the Lord with these concerns. I think in general what I see is that if she cares too much about something, she fuels that care with anxiety. There is a guy, she likes him a lot, they are cute together. It was easy and she was so happy, but now I see her spiraling the last two weeks with anxiety around the what-ifs (What if I get my heart broken, what if this doesn't work out, maybe it would better to just walk away). What changed? It went from something she was just happily doing to something the cared deeply about and became afraid to lose it. I have seen this cycle. I have another session scheduled with the same counselor to talk through this in early January. She has hashimotos and her TSH is standing at a .007 right now. This is lower than she usually is and I am questioning if the decision to leave her there is wise. She isn't having the other symptoms she usually has with being over medicated. Like ~ starving, weightloss, insomnia, etc. So the doctor suggested leaving her since she was feeling good. Edited December 29, 2019 by Attolia 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said: I wonder whether you have looked into whether her anxiety rises to the level of a disability? There are some advantages, I understand, in filing for disability before coming of age, if so. I don't know enough about this to advise you specifically, but I have heard enough here and there to think that this is worth exploring. See my post above to PeterPan. Maybe that will help you understand more. I am not sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 I do think pinpointing and working on the anxiety and any out cropping health problems as a result of that (can come out in weird ways - rashes, digestive, allergy symptoms, other auto immune stuff) can help. Since she is only 16, things can change a lot yet over the next number of years. Has she always been anxious? Or did anxiety crop up in a new school setting? I"m just reading your last post. I don't think treating for anxiety is a failure if it is consistently life limiting. Some people need drugs or ongoing therapy. I had anxiety that I kept under decent control until I had post partum depression and anxiety with my first child. Being on meds and doing 6-9 months of therapy to help clear my head and give me some strategies and names to what was going on with me was extremely helpful. Really working on this and lending some structure to her days (3 meals, outside exercise, appropriate supplements if you do those, sleep, getting out in the world, etc) would be my first priority. It is interesting she has Hashimoto's and I'd definitely keep a close eye on that. These auto immune things are tightly coupled with things like anxiety. My mom tends anxious and is hypothyroid. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Attolia said: Thanks for all of your wonderful thoughts. When I had her see a counselor upon leaving school (3-4 sessions) the counselor said that she didn't see general anxiety symptoms in dd. She wasn't a worry wort as a child. DD went into school in 8th grade fine, she succeeded and became the best of the best, the top of the top. After received so much recognition at the end of 8th grade, she gained a ton of anxiety and began overworking to keep that status. She was afraid to lose what she had gained and she struggled with imposter syndrome (what if they all find out I am not actually smart). She would stay up until 2 am studying and overworking to keep a standing that she had gained without the anxiety. The counselor said she needed out of that environment, that it was toxic for dd. I was really torn with which was better - to let her work through and get over the need to over achieve or to pull her out. When she got so sick, we just had to pull her. DD tends to be nostalgic and does have some fear of the unknowns of the future. I think these are just basic fears that we all struggle with though and not over the top. We are trying to help her relax and trust the Lord with these concerns. I think in general what I see is that if she cares too much about something, she fuels that care with anxiety. There is a guy, she likes him a lot, they are cute together. It was easy and she was so happy, but now I see her spiraling the last two weeks with anxiety around the what-ifs (What if I get my heart broken, what if this doesn't work out, maybe it would better to just walk away). What changed? It went from something she was just happily doing to something the cared deeply about and became afraid to lose it. I have seen this cycle. I have another session scheduled with the same counselor to talk through this in early January. She has hashimotos and her TSH is standing at a .007 right now. This is lower than she usually is and I am questioning if the decision to leave her there is wise. She isn't having the other symptoms she usually has with being over medicated. Like ~ starving, weightloss, insomnia, etc. So the doctor suggested leaving her since she was feeling good. re; TSH, I know meds can suppress TSH, that in itself doesn't mean she is hyper but I'd want to know for certain FT4 and FT3 levels to verify. As you probably know TSH isn't even produced by the thyroid but by the pituitary to stimulate the thyroid to produce hormones, if the body is getting the hormones it needs through medication the TSH can stay low. My TSH stays suppressed but my T3 and T4 levels do not go above range (T4 actually on the lower end of range but after a whole lot of tweaking this is optimal for me), this just works best for me to take full replacement of hormones instead of trying to expect my body to produce any. Edited December 29, 2019 by soror 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 7 minutes ago, Attolia said: When I had her see a counselor upon leaving school (3-4 sessions) the counselor said that she didn't see general anxiety symptoms in dd. Ok, so just starting there, that seems preposterous. My ds has an IEP even though he's not in school, so we're there some, have been through some. Girls mask, and under 18 they don't get treated the same (by medical professionals). If she's with a ped, what you might do is go ahead and change her to a really sharp family practice doctor, someone who will TALK with her and do a new patient intake and spend time with her and treat her like an adult. No farms and sheep on the walls and baseball pictures, kwim? To get this mental health stuff taken care of, the doctor has to LISTEN. The other thing I did to make that appt go well (and you do what you want, but this is what I did), was I sat with dd for a few hours and helped her write out these things. Like not interpreting but just asking her questions to get out of her what SHE knew inside about herself. Like I'd say tell me what's hard, now write that down. Tell me what you want to do that you can't do, write that down. Kwim? Like just lots of data for the data to start to see the patterns and give her good advice. A psychologist (what the school presumably had) is kind of a funny profession. They should listen and do, but they're more about what they can see, what they can quantify, what their tools and forms are saying. And the MD is like I have the meds and if you'll tell me enough it will be obvious what chemistry is going on here and what me might be able to try. We also tried a pdoc, and I'm guessing they VARY. Suffice it to say my advice is that you look for someone who is CONSERVATIVE whose ideas make sense. You want to hear things like getting some cognitive based counseling. There is SO much good stuff going on with anxiety treatment right now, that it's just mindboggling that they did NOTHING for her. It's a tier 3 diagnosis in our state, a pretty significant disability. Higher than SLDs, ADHD, etc. etc. Only ASD and a few other things are higher tiers of disability in our state's public schools. So when the school says they don't see it, they're saying they don't see it as affecting her ability to access her education. That's not legally the same as saying it's not going on. 14 minutes ago, Attolia said: DD tends to be nostalgic and does have some fear of the unknowns of the future. I think these are just basic fears that we all struggle with though and not over the top. So what you're describing is anxiety, and then what you said is that you've judged the degree of it. Maybe tease those apart in your mind and go ok, I can acknowledge the one and maybe reserve judgment or seek a 2nd opinion on the other, kwim? START by acknowledging the disability. So I can tell you that no one wants to start by saying it's the most severe presentation of anything. Like when my dd was 11-ish and she had her first psych evals, all the $$$$$ neuropsych said was that he could see hints of anxiety and not to aggravate it. The setup we had was not aggravating it, so she didn't come in with this raging alarm. Or put another way, she could meet the demands of where she was with the tools she had for self-awareness and self-regulation and didn't need meds. However as she began to max out those tools, the anxiety as a disability became more and more apparent. So rather than seeing it as yes/no, like this is a disability and this is normal, or this anxiety we treat and this we don't, maybe think through it more healthfully? Everyone needs tools to manage their emotions and self-regulate, to TRANSITION (what she wasn't doing with her school work, she was getting stuck), and the tools we bring in, like cognitive strategies, mindfulness strategies, etc. are good ALWAYS for all people. That's not saying everyone needs meds. It's just saying it's never overkill to start *somewhere*. It will not hurt to get some CBT for anxiety, only help. It will not hurt to run her vitamin D, thyroid, and B vitamins. It will not hurt to run genetics and look for defects with TPH2, methylation, VDR (vitamin d receptor, etc.) that could be impacting her. These are just basic. Good for everybody, always good. 20 minutes ago, Attolia said: She has hashimotos and her TSH is standing at a .007 right now. Ok, so what are you doing about it??? Sorry, I'm shaking my head here. WHERE IS HER DOCTOR ON THIS???? Who is taking care of this immediately? I've been on and off thyroid meds and recently, after I changed some things, my TSH went crazy low like that. THAT CAUSES ANXIETY. So there you go. Sorry, I'm not a profane woman, but I'm literally just not fathoming this. Who told anyone it was ok to leave it that low??? So google it, hyperthyroid anxiety. So definitely a symptom. The body is very hard to wrangle with. We have to live in it and we can't just think everything away with CBT. That thyroid problem has to be dealt with immediately. I think leaving it that low is highly controversial. Are her labs within the normal range for free T3 and free T4? Did the mental health symptoms correlate to the change in TSH? Has she been at that TSH and *not* had the mental health symptoms? Whatever. I'd definitely be checking on that because anxiety and thyroid too high or too low go together. 24 minutes ago, Attolia said: We are trying to help her relax and trust the Lord with these concerns. You know, the challenge there is asking if it's working, if it's completely solving the problem, kwim? I'm all for a spiritual solution to a spiritual problem. I'm also for balancing out thyroid hormones and blood sugar and medical problems. And I'm for working on chemistry stuff (5HTP, vitamin D, methylation defects, norepinipherine, etc. etc.) if there's a chemistry problem. If she prays and she's like yup, I prayed, I read my Bible, I repeated that promise verse today, I feel so much better about it, then we're cool, it's working, that's great. Kwim? But if she does that and she's like yeah and wanted that to work BUT I still have this feeling that I can't shake, then there's more going on. Genetics, blood labs, sounds like there should be some checking of the PHYSICAL going on here, that it's more than a spiritual problem. You can pray God would lead her to a doctor with some answers! That's a really valid thing. Maybe the first doc wasn't curious enough or skillful enough. Maybe, because her situation is complex, she's going to need a combo approach. So things you clearly have going on (or at least probably, lol) -physical problems (need fresh labs, maybe a fresh doc, deal with the physical stuff) -EF--It's well acknowledged that kids who are gifted can need help with EF=executive function. So some of this stuff about working and not taking breaks (I'm not reading back through the thread, but whatever that was), that's your EF, transitioning. Maybe she needs some really explicit instruction in strategies and expectations. We're going to work this long, then we stop. We're going to work this long and then we're going to take a break and work on relaxing. We're going to do some projects that don't go PERFECTLY so we can work on dealing with things not being perfect. Whatever those issues are, she may need some gentle, explicit instruction. She may need you to come alongside and say let's go to a movie, let's go to the gym. Some people need explicit instruction in mental health. -need for counseling. Focus on the Family maintains a counselor referral site, and that's how we found someone for dd. The person had a phd, with a masters in social work, experience in a pdoc office, and phd in biblical counseling. He was prepared to talk with her from ALL the sides, not just one, and in a really mature, problem solving way, where we're going to take responsibility, we're going to understand and make better choices. Rather than asking whether, my suggestion (and this is just me) would be to get her the right person and let them sort out why she needs it, kwim? If she is being made sick, she needs the help. Let her learn how to take care of her mental health for the rest of her life. Let her learn that it's OK to use professionals and ask for help. I don't know how your church is, but the churches I've always been in (and the christian universities) were like use the church, distrust everyone, psychologists will send you to hell, on and on. We have been fortunate to be lead to people who could talk with dd and address ALL the angles of her being (soul, chemistry, mental health). It's good to ask for help. It's good through the process of saying wow, we tried that guy, and he's just not what we need. Kwim? That's good too! That type of self-advocacy, where my dd can be out of state and try a practitioner and know why he's helpful or not, that's really important. 36 minutes ago, Attolia said: She isn't having the other symptoms she usually has with being over medicated. Like ~ starving, weightloss, insomnia, etc. So the doctor suggested leaving her since she was feeling good. Well there you go. But I'm challenging that, because for me the anxiety was part of it. Heart rate or just how hard her heart is beating is another. She can take her resting pulse each morning with a pulse oximeter and see. Feeling your heartbeat is amazing for interoception (self-awareness) and working on it daily will improve her ability to realize how she's feeling, feel more calm, and self-advocate. Doing a body scan 2-3X a day is another evidence based practice for anxiety. Yeah, to be in the hyper range and having so much anxiety, I think I'd be asking when the anxiety began and when it ramped up. I'm sorry it's hard to sort through. Some things are. What's her thyroid med? Did it change or change from name brand to generic? Or did she add/change supplements she's taking? 40 minutes ago, Attolia said: It went from something she was just happily doing to something the cared deeply about and became afraid to lose it. I have seen this cycle. I have another session scheduled with the same counselor to talk through this in early January. Could you go to a bigger city to find a different counselor? It sounds like this person wasn't ready to handle her. This was definitely a drive an hour to the big city kind of thing for us. This was not something to handle with the LPC in town, nope. Get a phd. Seriously. And you know the sad thing is, part of this is just NORMAL. It's normal to have those feelings!! And the question is why they're so extreme and why she doesn't have the self-talk skills to work through it. So I'm glad you're pursuing counseling, but consider upping the game. For us, when we got that phd counselor, 3-4 sessions was LIFE CHANGING. Seriously. But it was the caliber of person and the skill set they brought. They could talk at a whole other level and address so many more issues. And frankly, you need a person prepared to address her at her level of thought. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodGrief Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Given your last post (and her age, which I missed originally...she is YOUNG), I would not hesitate to do a gap year Or two. Working on a farm plan would be an awesome way to fill that time, while she simultaneously works on her medical issues. I would not have her do college classes for now so she can preserve her freshman status if she decides to do college in a year or two. I’ve learned a lot about the brain/body connection in the last few years as my high IQ daughters have experienced some interesting and difficult symptoms. My current college senior was almost derailed starting last spring as she suddenly developed these bizarre involuntary limb movements. This progressed to the point that writing was impossible, requiring accommodations for notetaking and testing in class. We struggled to find the right treatment, but she is almost fully recovered now. I believe anxiety can manifest itself in these autoimmune conditions too. Focus on the mental health, and hopefully the rest will fall into place. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodGrief Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 6 minutes ago, PeterPan said: And you know the sad thing is, part of this is just NORMAL. It's normal to have those feelings!! And the question is why they're so extreme So I'm glad you're pursuing counseling, but consider upping the game. For us, when we got that phd counselor, 3-4 sessions was LIFE CHANGING. Seriously. But it was the caliber of person and the skill set they brought. They could talk at a whole other level and address so many more issues. And frankly, you need a person prepared to address her at her level of thought. Great thoughts here, and I want to point out that we had to look way out of our local area to find appropriate mental health care for both our daughters. With this last situation and the involuntary limb movements, we went to a small clinic in the Midwest, far from both our home and my daughter’s college. It was amazing to work with people who had the right skillset. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 Will her opportunities dry up if she waits until she's 18 to go to college? She's so young and even a brilliant, non-anxiety-ridden student could run into some issues attending college as a minor. Can't she put together some sort of DIY prep-school for herself where she explores these options for a year or two. You could include enough breathing room for her to pursue her passions but also enough structure that she isn't rudderless during this time. Maybe you could find a mentor? I wouldn't be surprised if you found someone nearby with an advanced degree running some sort of community farm that would be delighted to share the workload with a bright, motivated scholar. I know a person who fits this description in my life and I'm not even looking for that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 1 hour ago, PeterPan said: Ok, so just starting there... Thank you for taking the time to type all of that out. It was a lot to think about but also so much good thoughts and information. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I might need to wrap back around and ask more questions after thinking on it more and processing it all. Her doctor thought that since her T4 is only a bit high and since she seemed like she didn't have hyper symptoms, she thought all was ok. Her last appointment was when she was feeling good and before the anxieties reared up again. I need to think through whether the anxiety is following med changes/shifts. I have wondered about it before. We tried to increase meds for a long time and couldn't because she would have panic attacks. Our dr does not use only labs to adjust meds. She likes to look at the whole pic, DD is on 90 mg of NP thyroid. She is 5'1 and 120 pounds. Not sure if that is helpful info, haha. She is definitely trying to pray, trust the lord, memorize scripture but, no, it isn't really working. Maybe I need a different counselor. Ugh, every time I look up counselors it is overwhelming. SOOOOOOO many and how to know who is helpful. I can't find anyone who specifically does CBT. I need to dig deeper. Thank you for your thoughts on this. I will check out focus too and see what they list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, Attolia said: Wow, what a way to read between the lines of my original post!?!?! Where did I say that I was over-the-top struggling with this? I asked for ideas for how to support her in this. Please re-read my post and then read my comments along the way as well. The huge benefit in going now is only that I am sure she could get a full ride (or close to it) somewhere. She doesn't have to go to Duke. I have told her this time and time again. I have encouraged her to look at local schools that aren't so high paced. I have suggested the state school with a strong ag program. My greatest concern is that she won't be self supporting and then will always struggle financially and be dependent on us or working long hours in jobs that pay very little and hate it. I am fully aware that she can change her mind and go to college later but it will be more difficult than right out of high school. I am also slightly concerned that she is choosing a path that feels easier and less anxiety ridden to her when in fact if she has anxiety it will manifest in many ways regardless of her path. You are upset enough over her choice to not go to college that you sent her to a counselor. But you have not considered going to one yourself. Why? I did look at some of the posts made here. You are so upset over her choice and so unwilling to accept it that you are looking for yet another counselor and putting her through medical testing and everything. You assume something must be wrong with her to not want to go to college and therefore, she needs to be fixed and you are focused on finding out what is wrong with her and fixing it. You have not stopped to consider that she is making a decision that is fine, nothing wrong with her. There is a ton in the media these days about how college is not what it used to be. And it is no longer a "litmus test" for employers. If you sent her to a counselor because you are convinced she is broken and only broken people go to counselors and she needs to be fixed, therefore, you refuse to go yourself, then you need to seriously think about that. And seeing a counselor to help work through this might help. Edited December 29, 2019 by Janeway 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Attolia said: Maybe I need a different counselor. Ugh, every time I look up counselors it is overwhelming. SOOOOOOO many and how to know who is helpful. I can't find anyone who specifically does CBT. There's more than CBT. But you know, if she didn't have the anxiety before she went hyper, then fixing the thyroid would be the place to start. And google for that Focus on the Family provider search. That's great that she's on an NDT product. At least that way you know she's getting all the components, not just T4, and not having a conversion issue or something funky. So yeah, if her T4 was hyper and her TSH was in hyper land and she's having this anxiety, maybe that's something to look at. Like I said, I'm an adult and, although I have a propensity to anxiety any way (for which I take 5HTP, because I have a TPH2 defect), it was very clear that taking that thyroid too high was bad voodoo and made it worse. It really doesn't feel good. And that's what I'm trying to be emphatic on that it REALLY DOESN'T FEEL GOOD to be hyper. 8 minutes ago, Attolia said: it isn't really working. Well, you know, you tried and it means there are more things involved. We have bodies too. It's ok. Just keep beating down ALL the paths. I mentioned genetics, and running genetics might open up some things, things that are treatable and could help. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 4 minutes ago, Janeway said: you sent her to a counselor. But you have not considered going to one yourself. Why? LOL, ok, slow down. Poor Attolia here does not need to be attacked for being imperfect. I never saw a counselor till my *dd* got the right counselor and the COUNSELOR said bring me in. Think about that. The real issue there is that the counselor was worthless and not ready to handle this level of complexity. That's all it really tells you. These things are very hard and I think only when you've done something very hard and grappled with very hard symptoms (where you try experts and they give you WRONG ANSWERS, which Attolia may have gotten in spades, at least incomplete answers), are you able to say yeah it's really hard. Whatever. But me, I got to my exalted perfect state by great trial, snort. Like I don't, some days I'm like look this is going well, I finally understand! And then others I'm like wow, another curve ball, this is really hard. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 I trust NOBODY anymore. Double check EVERYBODY. Seriously. The answers should make sense and jive. The should stand up to questioning. I haven't had a provider for my kids yet that was omniscient. Helpful, yes. But omniscient, no. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted December 29, 2019 Author Share Posted December 29, 2019 6 minutes ago, Janeway said: You are upset enough over her choice to not go to college that you sent her to a counselor. But you have not considered going to one yourself. Why? I did look at some of the posts made here. You are so upset over her choice and so unwilling to accept it that you are looking for yet another counselor and putting her through medical testing and everything. You assume something must be wrong with her to not want to go to college and therefore, she needs to be fixed and you are focused on finding out what is wrong with her and fixing it. You have not stopped to consider that she is making a decision that is fine, nothing wrong with her. There is a ton in the media these days about how college is not what it used to be. And it is no longer a "litmus test" for employers. If you sent her to a counselor because you are convinced she is broken and only broken people go to counselors and she needs to be fixed, therefore, you refuse to go yourself, then you need to seriously think about that. And seeing a counselor to help work through this might help. This is wrong on so many levels. I sent her to counseling while making the choice to leave private school to become homeschooled. She was having some health problems and some (here mostly) suggested that they could be due to anxiety and I wanted to help her sort that out and make sure removing her wasn't just taking away a chance for her to work through her anxiety. Counseling had NOTHING to do with college or not. Period. Please re-read and if I miscommunicated then I need to correct. I am now wanting het to return to a counselor to help with ANXIETY. Whether she goes to college or not is up to her. Anxiety will make her life difficult regardless of the path she chooses. I think you have some past experiences that you are reading my posts through. Take away the filter and read again. Thank you. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted December 29, 2019 Share Posted December 29, 2019 1 minute ago, PeterPan said: LOL, ok, slow down. Poor Attolia here does not need to be attacked for being imperfect. I never saw a counselor till my *dd* got the right counselor and the COUNSELOR said bring me in. Think about that. The real issue there is that the counselor was worthless and not ready to handle this level of complexity. That's all it really tells you. These things are very hard and I think only when you've done something very hard and grappled with very hard symptoms (where you try experts and they give you WRONG ANSWERS, which Attolia may have gotten in spades, at least incomplete answers), are you able to say yeah it's really hard. Whatever. But me, I got to my exalted perfect state by great trial, snort. Like I don't, some days I'm like look this is going well, I finally understand! And then others I'm like wow, another curve ball, this is really hard. Why do some people assume suggesting going to a counselor is an attack? I am trying to point out to Attolia that if she did not send her daughter to a counselor to attack her daughter, then why would she refuse to go? When someone is having a problem, those closest to them can benefit by getting help too. When my son has Aspergers (which he does) then I go to someone for me to get help in what I can do. I see nothing wrong with that. I love my son. I want to do what is right by him. I am not weak or attacking myself for going. Suggesting seeing a counselor is not an attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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