college math not going well for ds - just commiserate with me

[hornblower]

I know we've had several threads of college kids not doing so well - it's my turn. Ds has probably failed a pre-calc class.  

I suspect part of the problem for ds was that everything looked familiar so he was blowing things off thinking he already knew them. Plus there were some personal/social things this semester & his head was not in the game at all. He's got sn (and accommodations arranged) and he takes a reduced course load year round. It's already going to take ages to get his education. He's my "still figuring stuff out" kid & still needs tons of supports from us.  

I'm not sure if we should advise him to try to retake it right away or better to wait?  He goes year round & there is a chance he might be able to retake it in the summer. Is math one of those things that it's better to get back on the horse right away? 

& I'm struggling with parenting him - he's an adult but not launched, not even close to being launched, living with us;  and I'm having a hard time sorting out what our relationship should be now. And some of his decisions lately have been um....not great.   Argh. 

 

[regentrude]

Summer classes move at double speed and do not leave time for concepts to sink in and be processed. I would not advise a struggling student to take a summer math class.

How is his high school preparation? Did he actually master precalculus?

Is he using help sessions, tutoring, and any academic assistance his college provides?

Is he aware that he needs to spend two hours outside of class for every hour in class, i.e. plan to spend 8 hours outside of class for a 4 credit course? Most of my struggling college students gravely underestimate the time they should be spending on schoolwork.

[Carol in Cal.]

With math, keeping it fresh in your mind is usually pretty helpful.  I’d suggest getting back into it if you think he will really commit to it this time.  

Also, just in general, in college tests are a much bigger part of grades than homework or outside work, so you might consider suggesting that he practice doing problems pretty fast.

[MysteryJen]

Hugs, Hornblower. Young adults can be maddening. I just keep offering help and sometimes they take it and sometimes they don't. Sometimes I don't offer and they really do want the help. It is a constantly shifting playing field, and the game is exhausting.

For the pre-calc class, I would re-do the class this summer and have it be the only class he takes. Things will be fresh in his mind, as well as the failure. That could be enough to spark harder work. Also, I would offer any tutoring services he might require. Not you. A real-life tutor that he likes and can hold him accountable. That will be worth every penny and it is a way for you to step back out of the academic things.

[J-rap]

Does he need pre-calc?  My dd who finds math challenging did the very minimal amount/level required and left it at that.  She excelled in her other classes and she didn't need much math for what she wanted to do.  I think my dd was only required to pass college algebra and she didn't take anything after that.

[hornblower]

Our summer semester is exactly the same as the other semesters so it's the same exact length.  It's the same course. Same instructor even.   
 He didn't do the work. He went to class but didn't do most of his homework. They have free full time tutors sitting in a math lab avail M-F 8-4 but he didn't step foot in there even once 😖

There were weekly quizzes which he kind of studied for the night before.  At midterm he had an avg of 90% on the quizzes but I think it slid after that. His midterms were 62% and 42%. He kept saying he understood it, just needed to do more practice but somehow never actually did it. That's the aaaargh part. 
 

 

[mumto2]

Hugs,  I don’t think time off will do anything other than increase what he has forgotten.  I am another vote for pre calc being his only summer class and getting it done.  I am assuming it’s a requirement?

[Arcadia]

16 minutes ago, hornblower said:

I'm not sure if we should advise him to try to retake it right away or better to wait?  He goes year round & there is a chance he might be able to retake it in the summer. Is math one of those things that it's better to get back on the horse right away? 

 

My brother is a late bloomer without any known SN. He did his Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering part time and honestly would have crumbled over the course load if he had done it full time. 

Whether the summer session would work depends on your son’s buy in. For my alma mater (non-US), summer term is almost as long as the usual college semester. If your son is keen and summer term is not a summer intensive kind of schedule, summer term with a private tutor would likely work. If your son isn’t keen to do summer term, or it would be too intensive (like the crash course style they have here), then a private tutor to get him up to speed might work better and he can retake precalculus in fall with more confidence.

[MysteryJen]

That is maddening. Math lab with changing tutors is might not be what he needs. A single tutor that can frog march him through assignments, quizzes, and midterms could actually help him learn how to take a class and do it well.

[Bootsie]

Because of the compressed nature of summer classes, I have found that many students struggle taking math in the summer.  There is no time to wrestle with a topic--you get a little behind and you are way behind!  However, I have seen some students who struggle with staying focused do better in the summer.  They can stay focused when they see an end in four weeks.  They also do better when they are only take one math class and really focu on it rather than having four or five classes competing for their attention. 

[prairiewindmomma]

In your shoes, I would suggest and get my kid to commit to doing Khan Academy precalculus over the summer and then enroll him again for the fall.  He would have a chance to fill in gaps in foundation and build confidence again before tackling it formally in a classroom setting. 

If ADD/ADHD is on the table, the mid-semester slump is real.  It's where I have to step in and offer some scaffolding each and every time because it's a predictable phenomena. If this is feeling like that mid-semester slump, I would sit down with him and really explicitly talk about where things fell apart, why, what should have happened instead, and work on building those skills. The conversation isn't meant to be a chastisement, just accountability for doing the things he needs to do: putting deadlines in calendars, building in study time (by blocking that on his schedule), doing homework, seeking help, etc. If he needs a reward system (like Friday icecream after he's updated his planner, turned in his assignments, and finished his classes for the week or whatever), and he knows he needs that for himself, then building that into his routine....   

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, hornblower said:

I know we've had several threads of college kids not doing so well - it's my turn. Ds has probably failed a pre-calc class.  

I suspect part of the problem for ds was that everything looked familiar so he was blowing things off thinking he already knew them. Plus there were some personal/social things this semester & his head was not in the game at all. He's got sn (and accommodations arranged) and he takes a reduced course load year round. It's already going to take ages to get his education. He's my "still figuring stuff out" kid & still needs tons of supports from us.  

I'm not sure if we should advise him to try to retake it right away or better to wait?  He goes year round & there is a chance he might be able to retake it in the summer. Is math one of those things that it's better to get back on the horse right away? 

& I'm struggling with parenting him - he's an adult but not launched, not even close to being launched, living with us;  and I'm having a hard time sorting out what our relationship should be now. And some of his decisions lately have been um....not great.   Argh. 

 

I feel your pain.  Ds19 had pre-cal (A & B for 5 credits) and Cal this semester for 4 credits.  He has had to work his butt off and I've been super proud that he has finally learned to study.  

And yes parenting young adults is so difficult.  My least favorite so far.  😉  

[Scarlett]

27 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

In your shoes, I would suggest and get my kid to commit to doing Khan Academy precalculus over the summer and then enroll him again for the fall.  He would have a chance to fill in gaps in foundation and build confidence again before tackling it formally in a classroom setting. 

If ADD/ADHD is on the table, the mid-semester slump is real.  It's where I have to step in and offer some scaffolding each and every time because it's a predictable phenomena. If this is feeling like that mid-semester slump, I would sit down with him and really explicitly talk about where things fell apart, why, what should have happened instead, and work on building those skills. The conversation isn't meant to be a chastisement, just accountability for doing the things he needs to do: putting deadlines in calendars, building in study time (by blocking that on his schedule), doing homework, seeking help, etc. If he needs a reward system (like Friday icecream after he's updated his planner, turned in his assignments, and finished his classes for the week or whatever), and he knows he needs that for himself, then building that into his routine....   

This is a great idea.  If he doesn't do the Khan Academy and master it then it might not even be a good idea to try it again in the fall.

What is his major?  Maybe another math might be better for him.

[TechWife]

I failed a calc course in college and I survived. When I retook it I made a C.  I don't mean to be trite, but it isn't the end of the world. Have him troubleshoot with his professor and/or advisor, make sure he's aware of the resources available to him, such as math lab and individual tutoring (and whether there's an associated cost with tutoring) and leave the ball in his court. Who knows, he may discover he needs to change his major if he isn't up to the task. That's okay too. 

[Liz CA]

2 Things about math IMHO:

If you are so discouraged that you have started to believe you will never grasp it, take a break, have some success classes, put some distance between the "failure" and the retry. Is he an autodidact that likes to go at his own pace? Refer back to some of your homeschool resources / online math programs (too long in the past for me but many here are up to date on this) to review some algebra concepts so he can feel well prepared for pre-calc.

If you know you could have done more, blew things off a little but basically are well prepared, I would take it again soon because as Carol said, math (unless you use calc concepts everyday) needs to stay fresh in your mind.

Agreeing with Regentrude - summer classes move at an incredible speed. I took several to finish early and the classes were upper level, so in my field that I enjoyed, but the breakneck speed still kept me at it for hours and I do believe retention is somewhat compromised because you are filling the tank so fast that things are not allowed to settle in properly. Now, I am using those concepts daily now so I have been able to cement them in better.

 

[sassenach]

Parenting young adults is the worst. The absolute worst. 

 

[gardenmom5]

it's better to get back on right away.  that said  - I would get him on kahn academy asap.  (it goes through differential equations.)

my bad-at-math son, decided he wanted to be an engineer. it was the ONLY thing interesting to him. (despite his computer skills.).  he got on kahn academy in april and started first grade math, learned there were a lot of basics he didn't understand, and by by sept had tested into calc 1. (which he had to do at the cc to start the mechanical engineering program.)  he's getting his BS in june.

[hornblower]

He needs the math as he's in science but undecided between earth, chem & physics.   

[hornblower]

31 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Parenting young adults is the worst. The absolute worst. 

 

I needed to hear that!

[Mbelle]

For my dd it turned out to be the instructor and his final exam. After the final over half the class failed the class.  DD did not fail, but her overall grade dropped 14 points.  It was very discouraging, because she had overprepared and felt confident she knew the material.  DD had to take the grade and now is retaking with another instructor and doing fine.  It did cause her to have one semester of low GPA but now she's doing great! Sometimes there will be a horrible class and the students can let all their friends know!   

[TechWife]

54 minutes ago, hornblower said:

He needs the math as he's in science but undecided between earth, chem & physics.   

This may help him make that decision. He may need to change majors as well.

[TheReader]

8 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

With math, keeping it fresh in your mind is usually pretty helpful.  I’d suggest getting back into it if you think he will really commit to it this time.  

Also, just in general, in college tests are a much bigger part of grades than homework or outside work, so you might consider suggesting that he practice doing problems pretty fast.

yes, this. My son's math prof suggested exactly that -- keep working the same problems/similar problems until he could do each one in 15 mins or less, so he would be prepped for the test. 

8 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

Hugs, Hornblower. Young adults can be maddening. I just keep offering help and sometimes they take it and sometimes they don't. Sometimes I don't offer and they really do want the help. It is a constantly shifting playing field, and the game is exhausting.

For the pre-calc class, I would re-do the class this summer and have it be the only class he takes. Things will be fresh in his mind, as well as the failure. That could be enough to spark harder work. Also, I would offer any tutoring services he might require. Not you. A real-life tutor that he likes and can hold him accountable. That will be worth every penny and it is a way for you to step back out of the academic things.

Also this. If you can find someone, it would be worth its weight in gold. 

8 hours ago, hornblower said:

Our summer semester is exactly the same as the other semesters so it's the same exact length.  It's the same course. Same instructor even.   
 He didn't do the work. He went to class but didn't do most of his homework. They have free full time tutors sitting in a math lab avail M-F 8-4 but he didn't step foot in there even once 😖

There were weekly quizzes which he kind of studied for the night before.  At midterm he had an avg of 90% on the quizzes but I think it slid after that. His midterms were 62% and 42%. He kept saying he understood it, just needed to do more practice but somehow never actually did it. That's the aaaargh part. 
 

 

With this info, definitely I'd have him go ahead and do it in the summer, then. My son failed (and Q-dropped) Calc 3 one semester, and retook it in the summer and made either an A or a B, I don't remember.  Getting right back on, lessons fresh, helped a LOT. By the end of that session, he was tutoring other kids in the class. 

[TheReader]

8 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

My brother is a late bloomer without any known SN. He did his Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering part time and honestly would have crumbled over the course load if he had done it full time. 

 

I'm not the OP, but I needed to hear that. My son's an Electrical Engineering major (for the moment) and definitely needing a part-time schedule....it's nice to know it can be done. 

[ktgrok]

I'd have him take it with a different instructor. Sometimes that makes all the difference. I failed physical chemistry 2 the first time...badly. Took it with a different professor and it all made sense and got an A. I just needed it taught differently.

[G5052]

7 hours ago, sassenach said:

Parenting young adults is the worst. The absolute worst. 

 

Oh, yeah. Thankfully both of mine got through there undergraduate math, but we've had struggles on other fronts. Toddlers are hard, but simple. Put them in the corner. Take away a toy. Young adults are entirely different.

[TechWife]

I want to add a story about a friend who was able, but not willing, to do hard coursework in college. I no longer remember what her major was initially. What I do remember was that during the first quarter of our sophomore year, she decided she didn't want to spend the next three or more years studying and having no free time. She was able to do the work, and she had good grades in all of her subjects. She, I kid you not, changed her major to recreation. A lot of us thought she was nuts and couldn't figure out what kind of job she could get with that. We kept studying, while her courses were, well, a lot more fun than ours, and she had a lot more free time than we did.  After graduation, she went on to a long successful career at a major airline. Who knew?

[DawnM]

11 hours ago, hornblower said:

I know we've had several threads of college kids not doing so well - it's my turn. Ds has probably failed a pre-calc class.  

I suspect part of the problem for ds was that everything looked familiar so he was blowing things off thinking he already knew them. Plus there were some personal/social things this semester & his head was not in the game at all. He's got sn (and accommodations arranged) and he takes a reduced course load year round. It's already going to take ages to get his education. He's my "still figuring stuff out" kid & still needs tons of supports from us.  

I'm not sure if we should advise him to try to retake it right away or better to wait?  He goes year round & there is a chance he might be able to retake it in the summer. Is math one of those things that it's better to get back on the horse right away? 

& I'm struggling with parenting him - he's an adult but not launched, not even close to being launched, living with us;  and I'm having a hard time sorting out what our relationship should be now. And some of his decisions lately have been um....not great.   Argh. 

 

 

I have a SN son in college myself.  I get it.  My son is only taking a basic, basic math class though and that is all that is required of him.  But he failed an Art History class and thankfully his professor told him the last day to drop, so it didn't affect his GPA, but it was time and money wasted.

I can't answer your question about taking it right away or not.  Just commiserating.

[gardenmom5]

21 hours ago, Mbelle said:

For my dd it turned out to be the instructor and his final exam. After the final over half the class failed the class.  DD did not fail, but her overall grade dropped 14 points.  It was very discouraging, because she had overprepared and felt confident she knew the material.  DD had to take the grade and now is retaking with another instructor and doing fine.  It did cause her to have one semester of low GPA but now she's doing great! Sometimes there will be a horrible class and the students can let all their friends know!   

my son had a (new to his uni) prof like that when he was a jr.  it was late in the quarter before the dept head got a clue what was happening, and stepped in.  the prof was supposed to be teaching an introductory course - he was teaching advanced material (even the upper classman/doc?student TA was struggling to follow). he wanted to fail almost the entire class (which would have messed things up badly as it is a required sequential course for their major.)

the seniors were scheduled to have this guy the next quarter - they came en masse to the dept head and demanded he be replaced.

Edited April 20, 2019 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

2ds talked about how there was one instructor everyone in his major would avoid like the plague.  when registration opened up for one 400 level required major course, it was that instructor or "staff".   the "staff" filled up first.

make me think back when ballmer announced he was leaving MS, but no one knew who would be replacing him - MS stock went UP because he was leaving.

[gardenmom5]

22 hours ago, hornblower said:

He needs the math as he's in science but undecided between earth, chem & physics.   

2dd has her undergrad in chem (with a minor in bio)

chem requires calculus as well as calculus based physics.  (some dufus told her she only needed algebra based physics. fortunately - small uni, and she worked with her prof to get on top of it.)

1ds (one easy quarter left before his BSAAE), - took plasma physics last fall.  probably required for a physics major.  there was no bell curve in that class. he dropped it for the sake of his gpa.

kahn academy.

[katilac]

Because he admittedly needs practice, I would have him do the ALEKS pre-calc course over the summer and then retake pre-calc in the fall. He should be rock solid before moving on to his next course. Even lower level science courses have so. much. math! 

ALEKS is $20/month but I find it much easier to track progress and such. 

He should also check the rules on retaking classes. It might actually be better to fail at this point than to scrape out a D, bc sometimes you can retake a failed class and the new grade replaces the old one. It's different at every school. 

[catz]

What I would say would depend on situational background and goals.

Is he otherwise motivated and engaged and doing well in other classes but needs to just muddle through this one math class  Or did he pick a major that will require higher level math?  Are you financing his college education?  Is he using financial aid?  How is he feeling about it?  Does he want to push through?  Is he feeling ambivalent about college in general?

I think it's completely fair to have boundaries on how much financially you are going to put into a college education for someone not invested in it.  Or to talk about the risk of continuing to burn through financial aid while not taking advantage of the educational opportunities.  My response might be different if he was otherwise doing well adapting to college in other classes and this class was an outlier.  Not doing homework seems like a pretty obvious immature bad choice that stayed consistent through an entire semester or he may have recovered the grade enough to pass.  I think that's different than not understanding the teacher.  I don't think I'd pay for the class again immediately.  I think spending the summer with khan (or some other self pacing curriculum) with regular check ins on progress would be a good pre-req to paying for the class again.

If he wanted to push through, I might agree if he gave you the syllabus and would be wiling to have you help him stay on track with the homework and finding extra help if he needed it with checkins after every class period or something like that.  

If he was generally ambivalent and not really interested or invested I might encourage a break entirely and walk him through the steps to get some sort of job leaning to full time.  Or step back and think about end goals and major.  Maybe a 2 year program is a better fit to employment.  Maybe an entirely different direction.  I think even and maybe even especially with a SN kid, they have to want the education and be invested in the end goal when it comes to college.  

 

[elegantlion]

If your summer sessions are the same length and schedule, it might be better to take in the summer. It would depend on how many other classes he's planning. If he's going to have fewer classes in the summer, it might help. 

I would also consider if the instructor is part of the issue. My son is a math major and definitely learns better from some instructors rather than others. His advisor really knows how to engage students in the material, there is one instructor who does well when they're in their expertise area, and another instructor who has become "he who shall not be named" to ds and many other majors because of his teaching style and personality.