Your opinion on teacher’s policy re: bathroom

[Just Kate]

My ds is age 14, in 9th grade at a small Christian school. He’s been at this school since third grade and we’ve always loved it. However recently a few very young teachers and there have been multiple issues in these classes. Ds rarely gets in trouble (if he does, it’s for something silly like talking in class) and is generally viewed as a well-behaved kid. 

Ds has a 30 minute lunch period and then has English class directly after. Just recently, the English teacher changes the classroom policy and students can no longer use the bathroom during his class. His opinion is that they should go during lunch. Twice since making this new policy, ds almost had an accident in his class because the teacher wouldn’t let him go. Both times, the teacher finally relented and let him go at the very end of class (right before the bell). 

Over the weekend I sent the teacher an email and kindly asked if ds could be allowed to use the bathroom during his class if necessary. I let the teacher know that oftentimes ds has to use the bathroom right after eating and that it doesn’t surprise me that he occasionally needs to go during class. The teacher emailed me back and basically said that it is his new policy to not allow students to use the bathroom during his class and that he feels that ds should be able to go either before or after lunch. He offered to schedule a time to talk with me over the phone if I felt like he wasn’t clear in his class mail  

I want to respond back, but I guess I’m looking for validation. I don’t think that it fair for a teacher to say that a student can never use the bathroom during their class and I’m upset that this is becoming such a big deal. 

What do you think of this policy? How would you feel if you were me?

 

[alisoncooks]

I know for me, personally, I can go during lunch and STILL need to go a 30-minutes later. Would a doctor's note change anything?

[HomeAgain]

I'd be scheduling a meeting with the principal and teacher after school and have them explain to me why they feel that pushing kidney issues on a child is a sound classroom procedure, and why the teacher feels the need to micro manage body functions.  And I'd wait.  For real answers.  And I'd stop the teacher every time and tell them that it wasn't good enough, and if they continued to feel the need to manage my child's bodily functions, then I'd be going higher.

[Pen]

I would try for two simultaneous approaches. 

1) ask your ds to plan his lunch time with a trip to bathrooom at the end before he heads to English —even if he doesn’t feel he needs it then, but to try to empty himself— in case this would help not need to use it during class.  Sort of like many families have everyone try bathroom use before heading out for car trip so as to avoid frequent pit stop needs.  

2) talk with the teacher, include that you have requested that ds not ask to use bathroom during class if possible, but that you think teacher needs to allow children to go to the bathroom if they need to do so. 

[Bambam]

I guess I'm going to be the lone person who wonders why a 14 year old can't go to the restroom during lunch and then wait till the next class changeover period? Is there a medical issue? Is the lunch time filled with waiting in line, then eating the food as fast as you can so you make it to the next class on time so there is no time to make it to the restroom (if so, then the school needs to do something about this)? 

If I were a teacher, I wouldn't want students interrupting my teaching time to request to use the restroom either. If the class has a lecture (say 30 minutes) then 15 minutes of in class working time, then sure, I don't see why kids couldn't use the restroom during that 15 minutes of independent work time. But if the teacher is lecturing, and kid leaves to use the restroom, then does the teacher wait till the student returns so they don't miss part of the lecture? Does the teacher continue the lecture and that student just misses that part (possibly essential)? What does the teacher do if the student comes back from the bathroom break and asks questions about stuff the teacher covered while said student was in the restroom (inefficient and annoying to the rest of the class)? 

[Ausmumof3]

I think for teachers this is one of those damned if you do damned if you don’t things.  There were definitely kids at my school that abused bathroom privileges to escape classes, meet boyfriends, girlfriends etc.  and having kids coming and going is disruptive.  If every kid goes during his class once a week and there’s 30 kids that’s 6 disruptions a class. 

The flip side is when there’s a genuine need strict rules or needs to ask can just make things super awkward and increase the risk of health issues.  Tbh I think this is one of the reasons homeschooling or smaller class sizes are so much better.  There are some rules that are kind of ridiculous but at the same time make sense in the day to day running of a large class but aren’t best for students.

[Ausmumof3]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

My DH is a master procrastinator.  Any time I ask him to do...........ANYTHING.............the first thing he says is "Let me go potty and then I will take care of it." And my kids have totally learned that.  "Ladies, it's time to unload the dishwasher...."  " Ohh Ohhh Ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh  I have to POOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!"

 

Yeah, I started saying no, go potty after you unload the dishwasher.

 

If only I could say that to DH. lol 

This used to be referred to in certain households as an attack of the dishes diarrhoea.

[Ottakee]

If this is a bladder thing, then likely he could go before class and then again right after.  Having lunch though can trigger bowels and continually ignoring/putting off those signals can lead to constipation and other issues.  Also, I know that certain foods trigger a NEED to go NOW response in me.  I try to avoid those when I am out, at work, etc. but sometimes life happens.

[Valley Girl]

5 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I guess I'm going to be the lone person who wonders why a 14 year old can't go to the restroom during lunch and then wait till the next class changeover period? Is there a medical issue? Is the lunch time filled with waiting in line, then eating the food as fast as you can so you make it to the next class on time so there is no time to make it to the restroom (if so, then the school needs to do something about this)? 

If I were a teacher, I wouldn't want students interrupting my teaching time to request to use the restroom either. If the class has a lecture (say 30 minutes) then 15 minutes of in class working time, then sure, I don't see why kids couldn't use the restroom during that 15 minutes of independent work time. But if the teacher is lecturing, and kid leaves to use the restroom, then does the teacher wait till the student returns so they don't miss part of the lecture? Does the teacher continue the lecture and that student just misses that part (possibly essential)? What does the teacher do if the student comes back from the bathroom break and asks questions about stuff the teacher covered while said student was in the restroom (inefficient and annoying to the rest of the class)? 

Not picking on you, Bambam, just using your post as a jumping off point.

So if English teacher gets his way and no one is allowed to use the bathroom during his class, what about algebra teacher who gets the kids in the next period? Surely algebra is as important as English, and if everyone who wasn't allowed to use the bathroom during English now asks to use it during algebra, well, nothing's been solved. (Can you tell I had a series of teachers who all wanted students to use the bathroom during someone else's class?)

Seriously, these are high schoolers. By all means, encourage DS to use his lunch period wisely. But if a specific individual is abusing the bathroom policy, the teacher should deal with the individual. Blanket policies like this tick me off.

[bolt.]

I think it’s an appalling misuse of power to deny anyone access to a toilet according to their body’s comfort.

My two-pronged approach would include a meeting with teacher (and possibly principal)... and telling my child that a teacher’s authority simply does not extend as far as to confine him to the classroom — that he should respectfully apologize, walk out, return quickly, and face any ‘music’ with his head held high, knowing I have his back.

[Bambam]

16 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

Not picking on you, Bambam, just using your post as a jumping off point.

So if English teacher gets his way and no one is allowed to use the bathroom during his class, what about algebra teacher who gets the kids in the next period? Surely algebra is as important as English, and if everyone who wasn't allowed to use the bathroom during English now asks to use it during algebra, well, nothing's been solved. (Can you tell I had a series of teachers who all wanted students to use the bathroom during someone else's class?)

Seriously, these are high schoolers. By all means, encourage DS to use his lunch period wisely. But if a specific individual is abusing the bathroom policy, the teacher should deal with the individual. Blanket policies like this tick me off.

I did assume there is a break between classes that can be used to go to the bathroom. OP stated it was a small school, so I'm assuming it shouldn't take that long to get from class to class. I'm used to kids switching classrooms in high school - you have time to go to your locker/visit restroom/whatever. 

And I didn't think you were picking on me. I just wanted to clarify that I do think there is probably time to go use the restroom between classes so no teacher should get all the "I have to use the bathroom" during their class. 

[Mbelle]

I know for me I could use the bathroom during lunch but them I would also need to not drink anything because for me it's not liquid in and immediately it's coming back out.  Now, if lunch were one hour then yes, they would likely have time to eat and drink and then do whatever necessary bodily functions needed taken care of.

I do not think someone should abuse their power on this issue. It really seems cruel. If one or two students are abusing deal with those one or two students.  

[Just Kate]

1 minute ago, Bambam said:

I did assume there is a break between classes that can be used to go to the bathroom. OP stated it was a small school, so I'm assuming it shouldn't take that long to get from class to class. I'm used to kids switching classrooms in high school - you have time to go to your locker/visit restroom/whatever. 

And I didn't think you were picking on me. I just wanted to clarify that I do think there is probably time to go use the restroom between classes so no teacher should get all the "I have to use the bathroom" during their class. 

 

They have four minutes between classes and they also have to go to their lockers to switch books because they can’t take their backpacks into class. The school is tiny, so it definitely doesn’t take long to switch classes. But with also needing to stop at a locker, 4 minutes isn’t much time. 

[Junie]

I actually instituted this policy as a high school English teacher. 

The reason for the policy is that the kids would constantly be using the restroom during my class.  I knew that it was a joke.  When 10 kids all "need" to use the restroom in one classroom -- one right after the other -- I had had enough.

An angry mother called me at home at left a nasty message on my answering machine, accusing me of causing her daughter to die a premature death of bladder cancer.

It turns out that her daughter did have a medical reason and I allowed her daughter to use the restroom during class whenever she needed to.

Eventually I eased the policy as the kids realized that I was sick of their "game".

It is sometimes one of those no-win type of situations.

[HomeAgain]

1 minute ago, Junie said:

I actually instituted this policy as a high school English teacher. 

The reason for the policy is that the kids would constantly be using the restroom during my class.  I knew that it was a joke.  When 10 kids all "need" to use the restroom in one classroom -- one right after the other -- I had had enough.

An angry mother called me at home at left a nasty message on my answering machine, accusing me of causing her daughter to die a premature death of bladder cancer.

It turns out that her daughter did have a medical reason and I allowed her daughter to use the restroom during class whenever she needed to.

Eventually I eased the policy as the kids realized that I was sick of their "game".

It is sometimes one of those no-win type of situations.

I honestly don't have much respect for this classroom control technique.  It's lazy, it can be detrimental, and you should not be privy to a student's personal medical information because you want to control their bodies.  You don't have that right.

I'm sure there are many books on classroom management that would have better suited a teacher who is willing to grossly overstep their parameters and decide when students can have normal function. 

[Tanaqui]

Most high schools I'm familiar with a. only have 3 - 5 minutes between classes (which may mean there's simply no time to go to the bathroom, even if there wouldn't be a line) and b. lock the bathrooms from five minutes before the end of the period until five minutes after the start of the period anyway. So no, you can't go between classes.

And how long is his lunch break? NYC schools typically have a full class period for lunch, but I've heard of other places that only have 20 minutes or so. That's not long to stand in line, sit down, eat your lunch, and then use the facilities - again, even if there isn't a line for the toilet!

[Just Kate]

OP here. There are other problems with the school right now, which includes a brand new principal and three very young teachers who are lacking at classroom management skills (I just learned that while they have degrees in their subject, they don’t have education degrees, so no training on how to teach). The sad thing is that this school is so small that ds will have this particular English teacher each year for English. So we don’t have the option to just get through this year.

As I mentioned in my op, there have been many problems at the school, but I am trying not to let them influence how I handle this situation. Ive just always been the type to go out of my way to get people to a bathroom when they need to go. If there was some evidence that ds was actually not using his bathroom time appropriately, then I would understand.  But that’s not the case here. 

[EmseB]

My opinion, as someone who has been in the kid's shoes, is that kids should be allowed to use the restroom. I'm sorry it's disruptive to have a lot of kids going to the bathroom, but faking it or not...what are you going to do? Make some poor kid wet their pants, or worse what if it's numero dos? You have 15-30 people in a room and you just can't say that no one should have to go for 45-50 minutes right after lunch.

This is TMI, but I was clockwork regular as a kid. Always had to go during 1st period of class. It did not matter if I went before or after, my body just had to go at that time of the morning. I tried not eating breakfast, I tried eating later, earlier, whatever. My body was just on a schedule. It was embarrassing and disruptive to me. I could not do anything about it. And every teacher I had from middle to high school wondered why I couldn't just go before I got to class. I physically couldn't make myself go when I didn't have to, and trying to sit in class for 30 minutes when I did have to go? Well, let's just say I wasn't getting much learning done, that's for sure. And there are some very horrible social consequences of not being able to go to the restroom when you need to go.

You can try to explain something like this to the teacher, and really, for me, and for the whole class I think, the best and least disruptive option would have been not even having to ask to go. Just quietly get up go to the bathroom and come back. Like everyone does in the real world for the most part.

 

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It's not about controlling individual student bodily functions.

it's about an inability to teach a classroom of 30 kids when 1/3 of them request to leave on a regular basis.  

I think your post presumes that most students have truely innocent reasons to request to leave.  The reality is that it doesn't take long for teenagers to catch on to the fact that they can leave a classroom whenever they want and then go smokin' in the boys room or hooking up in the empty band room or pouring baby oil down the hall so that next class change everyone slips and falls (the assistant principle broke her leg on that one.)

This is just something teachers have to deal with, though. You can't not let people, human beings, relieve themselves because others abuse the privilege. Deal with abuse if it's found, but if 10/30 people have to use the bathroom in an hour that is life in a classroom with humans. If someone has to go, they have to go .

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

Unfortunately, you kid is not the only kid in this particular classroom and sometimes, being part of a class means that you get treated just like everyone else in the class instead of the best way to accommodate the individual needs.  

So he should just wet himself? Go in his pants? What are you suggesting? No, being part of a group doesn't mean you don't get to go to the bathroom. Managing a group means that you have to allow for the fact that some people in a group might need to use the bathroom.

[Tanaqui]

If the students are that eager to get out of class, I doubt they're paying much attention in class. They may even be disrupting it more by whispering and passing notes and arguing with the teacher and generally being pains in the butt. Let them all out without making them ask, and if they don't come back - well, at least they're now only hurting themselves.

[Just Kate]

6 minutes ago, EmseB said:

My opinion, as someone who has been in the kid's shoes, is that kids should be allowed to use the restroom. I'm sorry it's disruptive to have a lot of kids going to the bathroom, but faking it or not...what are you going to do? Make some poor kid wet their pants, or worse what if it's numero dos? You have 15-30 people in a room and you just can't say that no one should have to go for 45-50 minutes right after lunch.

This is TMI, but I was clockwork regular as a kid. Always had to go during 1st period of class. It did not matter if I went before or after, my body just had to go at that time of the morning. I tried not eating breakfast, I tried eating later, earlier, whatever. My body was just on a schedule. It was embarrassing and disruptive to me. I could not do anything about it. And every teacher I had from middle to high school wondered why I couldn't just go before I got to class. I physically couldn't make myself go when I didn't have to, and trying to sit in class for 30 minutes when I did have to go? Well, let's just say I wasn't getting much learning done, that's for sure. And there are some very horrible social consequences of not being able to go to the restroom when you need to go.

You can try to explain something like this to the teacher, and really, for me, and for the whole class I think, the best and least disruptive option would have been not even having to ask to go. Just quietly get up go to the bathroom and come back. Like everyone does in the real world for the most part.

 

 

Ds is also pretty clockwork with going. Since his lunch is only 30 minutes long, he tries to go to the restroom at the end of lunch, but his body isn’t always ready to go then. And yes, for the most part we are talking Number 2. So he can’t just hold it until class is over (and even if he could, he only has four minutes between classes, so even though it is a tiny school there still isn’t much time to go to the bathroom then). 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Just Kate

[Tanaqui]

Quote

 

With the first statement, I am wondering if you have never been in a situation in your adult life that didn't allow you to go potty immediately when your body said to?  I mean I can think of a billion of them.  When I worked a retail position, I couldn't just walk off the register to go potty whenever my body said....I had to at least wait until customers were cleared from my line, or until someone could replace me.  Sometimes that might mean an hour straight ringing up customers.  

When I worked in a call center, we were basically tied to our desks by our head sets.  And although we could "log out" that was absolutely a negative on our stats (and anyone who has ever worked in a call center can attest to the fact that the phone stats mean a lot.)

 

 

Interestingly, I was just reading an article that brought this exact issue up as part of a general human rights concern: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/7/17/15973478/bosses-dictators-workplace-rights-free-markets-unions

[bolt.]

18 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

This is an interesting post to me.

 

With the first statement, I am wondering if you have never been in a situation in your adult life that didn't allow you to go potty immediately when your body said to?  I mean I can think of a billion of them.  When I worked a retail position, I couldn't just walk off the register to go potty whenever my body said....I had to at least wait until customers were cleared from my line, or until someone could replace me.  Sometimes that might mean an hour straight ringing up customers.  

When I worked in a call center, we were basically tied to our desks by our head sets.  And although we could "log out" that was absolutely a negative on our stats (and anyone who has ever worked in a call center can attest to the fact that the phone stats mean a lot.)

 

In terms of "a teacher's authority does not extend as far as to confine a student to the classroom"  Really?  A teacher has no right to require that the students that he or she is teaching remain in their classroom?  So, high school students should have the right to wander in and out of classes as they see fit?  That's a really interesting position to take.  I am not sure how any learning would take place.  

Both of the workplace situations you have discribed are in violation of labour codes that are local to me. I would hope for such protections for all employees, but I’m aware that many employees work under poor conditions like the ones you describe. I wouldn’t want to see a school taking an active role in ‘teaching’ future workers to accept norms of that type.

I affirm that a teacher can take actions within their role as a teacher — such as reprimanding students, telling them to stay put, reporting them for disciplinary actions, etc — but to *confine* as student is different from a teacher simply talking about what they are and aren’t allowed to do. High school students *do* have the right to “wander in and out of classes as they see fit” — they have that right because they are humans. They don’t, however, have any reasonable expectation that they might do so without consiquences.

(Edited to modify — I suppose I don’t see a human right to ‘wander in’ to classes without permission. I only want to assert the right to exit.)

Edited December 3, 2018 by bolt.

[HomeAgain]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It's not about controlling individual student bodily functions.

it's about an inability to teach a classroom of 30 kids when 1/3 of them request to leave on a regular basis.  

I think your post presumes that most students have truely innocent reasons to request to leave.  The reality is that it doesn't take long for teenagers to catch on to the fact that they can leave a classroom whenever they want and then go smokin' in the boys room or hooking up in the empty band room or pouring baby oil down the hall so that next class change everyone slips and falls (the assistant principle broke her leg on that one.)

No.  My argument is that it is lazy.  An effective teacher is not one who controls every aspect of the class.  An effective teacher is reaching the students.  A lazy one pretends to reach them by micromanaging them.  It is rude, and disrespectful.  There are better ways.  A child can quietly sign out and take a pass.  The teacher can speak quietly to a student after class if they are habitually absent and see if there is something that can be done to improve the situation.  A teacher can actively engage the class so missing time means something to the student.

You seriously want to tell me that it's your right to tell my child when to pee?  I don't think so.

11 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

This is an interesting post to me.

 

With the first statement, I am wondering if you have never been in a situation in your adult life that didn't allow you to go potty immediately when your body said to?  I mean I can think of a billion of them.  When I worked a retail position, I couldn't just walk off the register to go potty whenever my body said....I had to at least wait until customers were cleared from my line, or until someone could replace me.  Sometimes that might mean an hour straight ringing up customers.  

When I worked in a call center, we were basically tied to our desks by our head sets.  And although we could "log out" that was absolutely a negative on our stats (and anyone who has ever worked in a call center can attest to the fact that the phone stats mean a lot.)

 

In terms of "a teacher's authority does not extend as far as to confine a student to the classroom"  Really?  A teacher has no right to require that the students that he or she is teaching remain in their classroom?  So, high school students should have the right to wander in and out of classes as they see fit?  That's a really interesting position to take.  I am not sure how any learning would take place.  

Since when is an adult on par with a child?  Since when is voluntary employment on par with compulsory education?  Your arguments make no sense and are invalid.

[Valley Girl]

27 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I did assume there is a break between classes that can be used to go to the bathroom. OP stated it was a small school, so I'm assuming it shouldn't take that long to get from class to class. I'm used to kids switching classrooms in high school - you have time to go to your locker/visit restroom/whatever. 

And I didn't think you were picking on me. I just wanted to clarify that I do think there is probably time to go use the restroom between classes so no teacher should get all the "I have to use the bathroom" during their class. 

You're right. It does depend on how much time students have between classes. At my high school, we had 3 minutes. Those of us who had to go two buildings over the next class were consistently out of luck. Hopefully, at the OP's school, the time is more generous.

[EmseB]

9 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Except, not really the case. Hour long meetings, 45 minute commutes, 2 hr Black Friday rush, there are about a million different reasons that real adults in the real world don't always just drop everything and run to the potty when the urge strikes.

 

When my oldest was in high school, we were the farthest neighborhood from the high school.  It was about a 20 minute drive.  Because of how the route worked, she was the last stop.  That meant she got on the bus at 2:35, and got off at 3:45, give or take 5 minutes either way.  There's no bathroom on the school bus of course.     

3

I do. If I'm in a meeting, I'll step out. I'll pull over on the freeway and find a gas station. If I'm rural or remote, you gotta do what you gotta do (althought that problem is extremely rare). I don't go the bathroom in my pants. I find a restroom. If people have to go or are going to have an accident, they typically do drop everything and run to the bathroom. Unless you're suggesting accidents are a lot more ubiquitous than I've noticed?

Yes, there are times or places when it may not be physically possible to find a bathroom. The OP's kid is in a class in school which, IMO, is not one of those times or places. There is a restroom available. He should be allowed to use it if he has to go. He is not on a school bus for an hour. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by EmseB

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Actually, what I am saying is that the liklihood that a 14yr old is going to wet himself within a 45 to 55 minute class period is extremely small.  And, I would also like to point out that when the situation became an emergency, the teacher DID actually allow the child to go, so it's not like this is some zero tolerance policy at all costs that we are discussing here.  

 

And what I am telling you, from my own experience, is that it's not always about #1, and the chances that someone might have to go, regularly, at any given time of day is not extremely small. Especially when eating a meal is often what stimulates the urge to go for a lot of people.

And it is hard, as a kid, to have to convince the teacher that you need to use the restroom "as an emergency" every single day if you are that regular.

[HomeAgain]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

Isn't educating a high school student at least in part preparing them for being an adult?  Part of functioning in the adult world is learning that there is an appropriate time and way to excuse yourself from a room.  

 

 

 

And you want to know what the REAL truth is?  Really actually?   Especially as block scheduling has become a thing?    Just stick a toilet in each classroom or block of classrooms.  That way, when kids have to potty, they don't have to leave.  No one wanders the halls unsupervised, and that eliminates the advantage of leaving the classroom.  When I was in high school, many of the classrooms within a subject (ie all the bio classrooms, all the math classrooms) all shared a storage area within a "block."  A potty or two per those sorts of blocks could solve plenty of those problems.   

A child does not have an adult's body, and the teacher is trying to control it, not offer a way to excuse themselves quietly.  Your argument is nonsense at best. 

I'm not even sure about the rest.

[Junie]

22 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I honestly don't have much respect for this classroom control technique.  It's lazy, it can be detrimental, and you should not be privy to a student's personal medical information because you want to control their bodies.  You don't have that right.

I'm sure there are many books on classroom management that would have better suited a teacher who is willing to grossly overstep their parameters and decide when students can have normal function. 

I was a first year teacher.  It was not lazy, necessarily.  It was desperate.  I had zero control of my classes and everyone knew it.  The kids took advantage of it.

And I was not privy to the student's personal medical information other than there was a doctor's note of some sort in the office.  I have no idea if the cancer information was accurate or not.  It was screamed at me through my home telephone answering machine.

4 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

No.  My argument is that it is lazy.  An effective teacher is not one who controls every aspect of the class.  An effective teacher is reaching the students.  A lazy one pretends to reach them by micromanaging them.  It is rude, and disrespectful.  There are better ways.  A child can quietly sign out and take a pass.  The teacher can speak quietly to a student after class if they are habitually absent and see if there is something that can be done to improve the situation.  A teacher can actively engage the class so missing time means something to the student.

You seriously want to tell me that it's your right to tell my child when to pee?  I don't think so.

Since when is an adult on par with a child?  Since when is voluntary employment on par with compulsory education?  Your arguments make no sense and are invalid.

Yes, there are better ways.  I just didn't know how to use any of them.  I have a bachelor's degree in English education.  I had one class that had a segment on classroom management.  There was virtually no training in the nuts and bolts of running a classroom.  There were plenty of classes on the history of education, and Shakespeare, and effective lesson plans... so many things, but not classroom management techniques.  And this was from a well-regarded teacher education program.

I feel that so much of this -- just like parenting -- comes with experience alone.

 

[Just Kate]

12 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Actually, what I am saying is that the liklihood that a 14yr old is going to wet himself within a 45 to 55 minute class period is extremely small.  And, I would also like to point out that when the situation became an emergency, the teacher DID actually allow the child to go, so it's not like this is some zero tolerance policy at all costs that we are discussing here.  

 

In the email from the teacher, he said it is a new policy and he gave the students a few days to get used to it (those were the days that he let ds go at the end of class), but now they just aren’t allowed to go. 

Sorry I wasn’t clear about that in my OP. 

[EmseB]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Isn't educating a high school student at least in part preparing them for being an adult?  Part of functioning in the adult world is learning that there is an appropriate time and way to excuse yourself from a room.  

 

1

The appropriate adult way to excuse oneself from a room is to quietly get up and go out to the restroom and then come back. As an adult I don't ask permission to leave a meeting, or church service, or my job. I get up and go and come back. So, I'm with you there, but I doubt that will work in most classrooms. It certainly wouldn't have worked for me, and if the OP's son would do it, I doubt there would be an issue involving his mom having to email the teacher.

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

But obviously, this teacher DID see it was an emergency, twice at least, since the policy change.  I would argue that indicates, again, that this policy isn't some sort of zero tolerance policy.

Again, put yourself in the shoes of a high school kid having to convince his teacher every day at the same time that he is going to poop his pants if he is not allowed to go to the restroom. I mean, really?

[Just Kate]

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Ok, I see what you are saying here.

 

How long is the class?  I ask because that does make a difference for me.  I have seen some really WONKY lunch/class period schedules.  Including one that had kids changing classes, entering 4th period then 15 minutes later, going to lunch for half an hour, then coming back to the same 4th period class for 30 minutes.  With 5 minutes passing period for EACH of those changes (honestly I think it's amazing that anyone learned anything for that time frame.)  If your are talking about 75 minutes of English, I think that's different than 45 minutes of English.  

 

 

The class is right around an hour. Then they have four minutes to go to their locker and get settled in their next class. Again, the school is small, so four minutes is plenty of time to switch classes, but does not allow enough time to use the restroom. 

[Corraleno]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Actually, what I am saying is that the liklihood that a 14yr old is going to wet himself within a 45 to 55 minute class period is extremely small.  And, I would also like to point out that when the situation became an emergency, the teacher DID actually allow the child to go, so it's not like this is some zero tolerance policy at all costs that we are discussing here.  

The issue with the OP's son is bowel movements, not urine, and for some people, when you need to go, you need to GO. Like right now, not 45 minutes from now. And it's not uncommon for that feeling to be triggered by eating a big meal. My son is like that and if he's in a situation where he has literally no alternative except to hold it, it causes physical pain — and a lot of anxiety. He's learned to try to work around it by timing his meals, but in a school situation you really can't control that.

The whole idea of an unrelated adult having that level of control over a teen's bodily functions is so creepy to me. Preventing a student who really needs to use the toilet from leaving the room is physically abusive, IMO. The fact that some students may take advantage of the chance to leave the classroom doesn't justify the right to physically abuse a student who isn't taking advantage of it.

[EmseB]

5 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Ok, I see what you are saying here.

 

How long is the class?  I ask because that does make a difference for me.  I have seen some really WONKY lunch/class period schedules.  Including one that had kids changing classes, entering 4th period then 15 minutes later, going to lunch for half an hour, then coming back to the same 4th period class for 30 minutes.  With 5 minutes passing period for EACH of those changes (honestly I think it's amazing that anyone learned anything for that time frame.)  If your are talking about 75 minutes of English, I think that's different than 45 minutes of English.  

 

What I have been trying to say in my posts is that the length of class and wonkiness of the schedule does not matter if you have to go to the bathroom. Either you can wait and hold it or you can't. It doesn't matter if you have 15 minutes left of class or 30 or 10, or if you just had a 10 minute break or a 30 minute lunch or a 45 minute lunch. I had 45 minutes of class first thing in the morning and at least 3 times a week I had to go to the bathroom during that class and couldn't hold it for 30 minutes of class time. I know there are people who can wait all day because they don't like public bathrooms or feel like they don't have time to go, or prefer to use their toilet at home. Some of us are not like that. Some people's bodies do not operate that way.

If letting kids go to the bathroom vs. not letting them go is causing chaos in the classroom, the issue the teacher has is not with the kids who have to use the restroom. It just isn't. It's a bigger classroom management and respect problem and you can't penalize kids who have to go by saying no one is allowed to go.

Edited December 4, 2018 by EmseB

[Just Kate]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

I was pregnant during my senior year in high school.  Yes, I had to go potty like every half hour during those last few months.  I also nearly passed out twice during blood sugar issues.   Doc note took care of both.  (of course, hiding an 8 month pregnancy isn't really something that's possible so it's not like my medical situation could have been kept private lol)

 

I probably could get a doctors note for ds. He had stomach issues a few years ago and I think his doctor would be sympathetic to him in this situation. However, I just think the policy is unfair to all of the students, not just ds. 

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I was pregnant during my senior year in high school.  Yes, I had to go potty like every half hour during those last few months.  I also nearly passed out twice during blood sugar issues.   Doc note took care of both.  (of course, hiding an 8 month pregnancy isn't really something that's possible so it's not like my medical situation could have been kept private lol)

So you think a kid should get a doctor's note for needing to use the restroom in school? Like a regular bodily function needs a doctor's note? That seems expensive and excessive to me.

[bolt.]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Most schools require some sort of pass for the student to be in the hallway.  And often, the teacher has to keep the past with him or her to ensure that kids don't steal it.  Some schools require that a teacher sign and date said pass so as to ensure that a kid isn't using some fraudulent copy of some laminated pass from weeks or years ago.

So that means that often, a student has to raise his hand, ask a teacher to sign, and then leave.  Imagine having to sign a pass every 5 minutes during a lesson.  

That sounds like the passes themselves cause a great deal more disruption than the toileting needs of the students do.

Such an amazing amount of work around such a trivial thing!

[EmseB]

6 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Most schools require some sort of pass for the student to be in the hallway.  And often, the teacher has to keep the past with him or her to ensure that kids don't steal it.  Some schools require that a teacher sign and date said pass so as to ensure that a kid isn't using some fraudulent copy of some laminated pass from weeks or years ago.

So that means that often, a student has to raise his hand, ask a teacher to sign, and then leave.  Imagine having to sign a pass every 5 minutes during a lesson.  

Right. That's exactly my point. You said kids should be learning how to appropriately excuse themselves from a room as an adult. My point was that almost no schools are teaching this. If they were, a teacher would not have to sign a pass every five minutes during a lesson.

Having to do all of the above does not at all resemble adulthood or the real world in most cases. And it's excessive for having to go to the bathroom.

[bolt.]

Double post

Edited December 3, 2018 by bolt.

[HomeAgain]

14 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

A child doesn't have an adult's body that's true.  But that doesn't mean the whole concept isn't a learning process.

 

Not even sure about the rest....not understanding what you mean by that?  You wouldn't support schools that offer more restrooms within easy reach of students so they aren't wandering the halls unsupervised?  Or you aren't sure that high school students often do that sort of thing?  Lower elementary school classrooms often (though not all) often have classroom restrooms.  One for boys, one for girls, right in the room.  This was true of my elementary schools, my oldest elementary, and the school that DD10 attended for K and 1st.  I understand that at the high school level, HS buildings are huge and that many toilets would be a huge remodel.  But one per block or whatever, that wouldn't be quite so huge and would compromise both problems-kids using the restroom as an excuse to get out of class, as well as teachers loosing so many kids to potty breaks

Happysmileylady, please explain why you are advocating for a teacher to have the right over a person's bowel movements.  There isn't a learning process with this.  Potty training happened years ago.  Acquiescing to an unreasonable demand is not something to be learned.  If you don't think a person has a right to autonomy when it comes to their own body, then I cannot even have a conversation with you.  To demand one has the right to be in charge of someone else's feces or urine is embarrassing. 

My not sure about the rest was how it can be considered 'truth'.  Convenient, yes.  Truth? 

[KungFuPanda]

I think a healthy teenager can probably manage to avoid needing the restroom during the one hour a day he has English class. I’m guessing multiple, disruptive bathroom trips during his class was the reason the teacher made the policy. With the policy in place I’m sure he has fewer disruptions. Most teens without medical issues can manage this schedule. I wouldn’t argue further unless my kid had a medical need. 

 

[EmseB]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

What I think is that the average teenager should generally be able to wait 45 to 50 minutes until class is over and that if they can't, it may very well be a medical situation.  Don't most students have a bus ride of 30 to 45 minutes or more?   Between all the stops letting off kids, isn't that common?

I don't know how to say this any more clearly. I did not have a medical issue. I had to go to the bathroom at the same time every day give or take 30 minutes and could not hold it for more than about 10-15 minutes. That is the warning my body gave me. I know that other people's bodies allow them to hold it for longer, in some cases much longer. I am not like this. Gosh, this is horrible to post on a public forum, but I'm putting it out there because I was met with this exact same lack of sympathy over and over again as a kid and it is embarrassing and socially isolating and extremely uncomfortable. When the whole thing would not have been an issue if I just could have walked the three doors down to the restroom, gone, and come back, usually in less than 5 minutes. I was a compliant rule follower and did not want to disrupt anyone's class time, much less my own. I just needed to go to the bathroom. It was not a medical issue.

[EmseB]

I don't understand what people think the alternative is to not letting a kid go to the bathroom. They either spend the rest of class highly uncomfortable and unable to focus or they have an accident. Or both.

It's like, "Well a teen should be able to hold it for 45 minutes." Okay, well that's good to know that I should have been able to do that. So I should get a doctor's note because I can only hold it for 15 minutes?

[HomeAgain]

8 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I am not advocating for a teacher to "have rights over a person's bowel movements."  Good lord.  I am talking about a teacher being able to teach a lesson to 30 15yr olds without having to deal with interruptions every 5 minutes.  Most teachers don't really care how much a specific teen needs to actually use the toilet.  What they care about is how many times kids leave their room.  Those two things are different.  

 

My use of the word "truth" was meant as "the truth about my own opinion"  As in "here's what I actually think"  

This policy is creating a situation in which a teacher has control over a child's bowel movements.  Regardless of the intent, that is the outcome.  There are other measures a teacher could take.

Truth is a very 1984 word in this manner.  Interesting, but derailing and confusing.  I think schools should be built with extra bathrooms, but it is not always possible.  My kid went to a small, two story school with one set on each floor.  Perfectly adequate, but not enough for each classroom.  The school I volunteer at now is lucky enough to have one for each room.  The children simply raise their hand and go.  My high school was built with bathrooms for each block of classrooms until it spread out towards the school farm. 
ETA: I don't remember ever being denied going to the restroom until a class as an adult while I was pregnant.  My teacher was dressed down for that one and the policy quickly rescinded.

Edited December 3, 2018 by HomeAgain

[EmseB]

10 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It doesn't resemble adulthood because as others have pointed out, teens are not adults.  Most adults in the real world aren't excusing themselves from a meeting to go hook up in the empty band room.  Most adults aren't logging off their call center phones to go hang out with their friends int eh lunch room.  And that is the rock and a hard place that so many schools are up against....teaching kids how to function in the adult world while still recognizing that teenagers are still teenagers.  

Okay. Well, if you look at the original post I quoted I was answering your question about how a high school should be teaching kids how to appropriately excuse themselves from a room. Now you're arguing that can't happen because they're teens. Okay?

Kids shouldn't be prevented from going to the bathroom when they need to. If those other things are going on, then that's a discipline issue. Going to the bathroom is not.

[StephanieZ]

My opinion == teacher is an asshat and policy is inhumane and disrespectful.

If my kid were ever told he wasn't allowed to use the bathroom, I'd be having a very real fit. 

I don't give a fig about the reasons for the policy. Sorry, restricting bathroom access is just not an option. Find another solution. 

So, I'd take the phone call with the teacher, express my expectations and hope for the best, and then pursue whatever other steps were needed. 

Meanwhile, I'd write a handwritten note that says, "My child, Joe Smith, SHALL have immediate access to the restroom whenever he desires. Please call ME at this number if you have any questions." And, I'd include my cell number. I'd handwrite it, and I'd write 4-5 of them and have my child have a stash of them, assuming he'd hand one over to the teacher on his way out of the classroom to the restroom . . . so might not get it back. I'd tell him to hand it to the teacher when he lets the teacher know he is going to leave to use the restroom (if in doubt), and to WALK RIGHT OUT (quietly and politely) to use the rest room when needed, whether or not the teacher "permits it", and I'd assure him that I'd take care of the fall out. Period. NO BODY tells my kid that he can't use a bathroom. Nobody. Ever. I'd make sure he has a cell phone, too, and that he can call me in one-touch with some sort of emergency call feature. 

Be sure to practice with your kid "letting the teacher know" vs "asking". 

"Mr. Jones, I will be right back. I'm going to the restroom." -- while he is walking out the door.

NOT, "May I . . ."

[Bootsie]

I can see the teacher having this policy (as long as there some consideration if there is a medical issue or a rare request).  When I was in school it was extremely rare for someone to go to the bathroom during class.  That is what lunch time and changing class period times were for.  The classroom is not the only time that people are asked to wait to certain times to use the bathroom.  You don't jump up when the plane it taking off to go to the bathroom; you go before you board the plane.  You don't get up in the middle of a theater performance and disrupt those around you to go to the bathroom unless it is an emergency (and some theaters will not let you return to your seat until an intermission).  I have been on jury duty where the judge will not allow people to go to the bathroom.  The symphony violinist doesn't get up in the middle of the performance to go to the bathroom.  The basketball game doesn't stop for the referee to go to the bathroom.  In many situations the teacher is not in a situation to jump up and run to the bathroom whenever he wants.

I say this as a parent of a child with a history of serious, documented GI issues.  When a teacher refused to let her go to the bathroom (despite documentation from the doctor--and the fact that the teacher knew the child had recently been in a hospital half-way across the country undergoing testing for this GI issue), I had a fit.  I asked the teacher if the child had been abusing this privilege and was told no, this was the first time (six weeks into the school year) that the child had asked to go to the bathroom but that she could tell by looking at a child's eyes when I child really needed to go to the bathroom.   

[Library Momma]

In my experience this is fairly common.  Kids who have any sort of intestinal or bladder issues usually can just excuse themselves and leave a class to go to the bathroom any time they want.  All it takes is the parent speaking with the school nurse and getting permission.  Sometimes a doctor's note is required.  The nurse then makes the teachers aware and it's not really a big deal.  The teacher can tell who is abusing the privilege and who isn't.  Sometimes kids who have more serious issues are allowed to use the closest bathroom even if it is a teacher's bathroom or sometimes they will always go to the nurse's office for more privacy.  

[SKL]

These are always tough ones IMO.  Many kids abuse lax bathroom policies, and yet those who need to go ... need to go.

I would recommend that your son use the restroom before class, and also I would let the teacher know that he will do that, but if he still needs to go then he needs to be allowed to go.  Maybe if he is worried about the whole class wanting to follow, your son could give a private signal followed by the teacher asking your son to go take something to the office for him.

You might also ask a higher-up about this "policy."  I assume they would be more sensitive to things that *could* get them sued and just aren't worth it.  I mean if a 9th grader were forced to soil himself in class, I could see that getting really ugly for the school.  I'm sure nobody wants to go there.