Would you be bothered? Extravagant friends

[8circles]

I'm with you on your second point.  No one wants their kid to be used as an example of "less privileged."  I don't think , anyway.  But your first point, why not?  We don't bring other kids on vacations with us because we cannot afford to do so and it is not something I would want to do.  But we do vacation WITH other families for a variety of reasons, one of which is so the kids have each other to entertain (sometimes) while the adults do something they want to do.  It may be as simple as the adults playing a complicated card game together while the kids play a less complicated game.  I have also suggested dd invite a friend over when I know I am going the spend a few hours organizing the pantry or working on a project or whatever.  Bonus points if I actually like the kid she wants to invite over.  Dd is happy.  The kid she invites over is happy.  I get something done.  Wins all around.  I'm not seeing the downside here.

 

We don't know that that is the reason the OP's child was invited on the vacation or other outings.  It may very well be that their child likes the OP's child and they are happy to extend the invitation for no other reason than they can.  I fully support the OP's decision to decline for any reason she wants.  But I do not get being miffed that they asked.

 

I think it works well for playdates or short local trips. Not for trips out of the country.

 

I don't think Quill is miffed simply that they asked this one time - it's that they ask all the time as if they are unable to do anything without her child as entertainment.

[bettyandbob]

Oh, wait, it was this: I would hope you could get to the place where you acknowledge a mismatch without assigning motives, Quill, they might not intend to cause all these conflicting your head. As others have said, this is just their culture, and they are probably thankful for their kids' friends who help to make life fun for their children.

This.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I see what you're saying.   Having to have a super fun over the top party party party all the time is excessive.   

 

My only is a teen, and I got accused of "having a party" every time dd's friends come over because I let them eat $3 frozen pizza and watch an entire movie on Netflix every time they are here for the whole day.   

 

So, that's where I am coming from.... :laugh: .    I'm just used to excessive partying  :leaving: .

I get called Susie Homemaker and told that I don't have to "fuss so much just for the kids" because I cook dinners (instead of ordering pizza or taking them out for fast food) and serve it on real dishes! I'm not showing off or trying too hard, this is our budget and lifestyle...you can't please everyone...I promise it's less stressful for me to cook a pot of chili and load a dishwasher than to fork over money I don't have at Chick Fil A.

[StephanieZ]

I disgree; I see very often how kids who have certain nice amenities think these are just the things that “everybody†has/does. Like one of my nephews, who, upon realizing that DS has only an iPOD, remarked, “You only have an iPOD?! I have an iPhone 7!†Or a few years ago, girls talking about how another girl’s boots were “FUggs†- Fake Uggs. Or another time when a kid told my kid that “7 friends over is NOT a party. Parties should be, like, 20 friends.†Or name-the-thing: “What do you mean, your internet is limited?†“You don’t have HBO?†“We can’t stream Netflix here?†“There aren’t any snacks? Can’t your mom go get Chick-Fil-A?â€

 

They become entitled simply because they think those things are normal. They aren’t even aware that some people live more modestly just because they choose to. It’s actually one reason I am more comfortable with my homeschooling community, because they are more likely to share my values.

 

So, well, do you think your kids are "entitled" because they feel that it's ordinary and expected to be fed everyday? To have a washing machine in their own house? To be able to access education? To have high speed internet and a computer at home? To be able to access medical care when needed? To have a bed of their own? Or even a room of their own? Probably not, despite the fact that the large majority of human beings on this planet don't get all those things and would feel they were incredibly lucky to have them . . . And we truly are incredibly fortunate to have these things (and I recognize that not all of our boardies can rely on all those things, either!)

 

Feeling entitled to certain things isn't always wrong. Feeling appreciation for what we have is nearly always a good character trait. Even though I want my kids to feel "entitled" to medical care, food, housing, and education . . .(and I'd like the entire world to be able to feel entitled to these things, but I can't assure that for the world, although I can assure it for my pre-independent-adult kids), I still work to teach them to appreciate the blessing we have due to where we were born, the color of our skin, the support we have received from our ancestors, the genetic and environmental advantages we've lucked in to . . .

 

My kids generally have had very blessed lives. So have I. So has my dh. We've had and have many good fortunes. I don't think any of us feel entitled to stuff we haven't earned (excluding those things we think are fundamental human rights). I think we feel entitled to what is our own (say, controlling my body and mind, managing the money I have in the bank, etc.) . . . but not "entitled" to that which is not by rights our own. I don't feel entitled to "stuff" until/unless I've bought and paid for it. And, meanwhile, I still feel greatly appreciative of the good fortunes I've had and feel a responsibility to share that good fortune with others (i.e., pay high taxes for schools we don't use and would love to do the same to provide health care for all, etc.) . ..  as I recognize that we've long benefited from the way society works and our ancestry/etc (i.e., institutional privilege due to our color/class/nation/etc.) . . . and so I want to do what I can to open those doors and tear down the barriers that blocks others from accessing what I/we got just due to our parentage/color/educational, financial, and social advantages/etc . . . 

 

I don't think having access to a computer at home or an endless supply of food in the pantry/fridge, etc, etc, makes a child grow up feeling "entitled" in a bad way. There are plenty of people who are relatively unaffluent but still raise kids who end up being entitled ass-hats. (I.e., the adult kids who feel entitled to their parent's money/support . . . these kids seem to evolve in EVERY socioeconomic situation . . . likewise, other kids grow up in every socioeconomic situation feeling appreciative and respectful, not entitled). 

 

So, anyway, I don't think the quantity of "stuff" in a kid's life destins them to feeling entitled vs feeling appreciative. I think it's a much more complex character issue. There are *always* people with MORE than us and ALWAYS people with less. Learning to appreciate your good fortunes and respect others are character issues, not affluence issues, IMHO. 

 

(That said, I do think there's some serious truth in it being harder for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle . . . as I do think having great wealth does seem to correlate strongly with people being awful human beings . . . ) 

Edited November 28, 2017 by StephanieZ

[fraidycat]

Quill, your Judgey McJudgerson is showing again.

 

If you don’t want your kid to go, that’s fine. Say No.

 

But the rest of the commentary is just way over the line. Different people are different. That’s life. Getting all up on your high horse about how they do sleepovers or vacations doesn’t paint you in a very pretty light. In fact the pretty to petty typo I just had in the previous sentence seemed rather fitting.

Edited November 28, 2017 by fraidycat

[gardenmom5]

I think it is not so much the extravagant aspect but your 12 year old being rope in as kind of a de facto “babysitterâ€/companion to your friend’s child by your friend.

 

If your son is best buddies and the invites came from the child instead of the parent, it might feel different. If my kid call someone to come over and play because he is bored, it is different from me calling the same someone over to play with my kid because my kid is bored.

 

 

For laser tag and movies, my DS12 would be happy to bring along a buddy as DS11 prefers different movies and isn’t into laser tag. So we would have paid for a friend or two if the occasion arise.

Amusement parks is another place that my kids rather pair with a buddy then pair with a parent. They like different rides and they prefer to ride with a buddy than solo.

 

dudeling is 12 1/2 years younger than my next child, so he's essentially an "only".  he's  . .  intense.  even my olders have been known to get exhausted trying to keep up with his demands for stimulation.   so, yes, I get the "sometimes it's just easier to have a same age playmate".   And there have been times I've invited other kids along for the truly selfish reason of keeping him busy so I don't' have to.   

 

I see what you're saying.   Having to have a super fun over the top party party party all the time is excessive.   

 

My only is a teen, and I got accused of "having a party" every time dd's friends come over because I let them eat $3 frozen pizza and watch an entire movie on Netflix every time they are here for the whole day.   

 

So, that's where I am coming from.... :laugh: .    I'm just used to excessive partying  :leaving: .

 

wow- such extravagance!   :laugh:

 

:grouphug:

 

 

When my kids were younger, I'd often scoop up extra kids when I was going on an Afternoon Outing. My kids enjoyed sharing their experiences with their friends, and I enjoyed being able to offer something to the friends and their families.  I don't play the "keep score" game, with friends or between siblings.  I think it breeds resentment more than contentment.  But often the friends' families did something that benefited me or my family somewhere down the line.  Maybe they couldn't do field trips because they worked, but they could send a snack when our kids played together.  Maybe they sent hand-me-downs.  Maybe they helped me think though a decision, or listened to me when I was feeling upset about something.  Or maybe, when I had their kid(s) for the day, they did something for the community, or for someone else, and I was glad to be a small part of making that happen

 

One time in particular, I was able to take two friends to a Big Academic Event.  Their parents would have never have taken them, and didn't even realize the importance of the opportunity that their children had worked hard (academically) to earn.  I paid for the hotel, the meals, the gas, and took them on two college tours on the theory that the more colleges you see, the better idea you have of what it's all about.  My kids have had opportunities that I didn't, just like my parents had opportunities that their parents did not.  Our family has moved from street traders to solidly middle class over several generations.  I want to bring others along with us, if they are interested.  It's my way of passing on that which my children and I have benefited from.    

 

  

yes.  growing up, my grandmother kept score.  it absolutely breeds resentment, especially for the person keeping score.  and really, life it way too short for that type of garbage.

 

I used to have a friend's son over a lot.  to me, it wasn't a big deal, but she was very appreciative.   only years later, did I come to understand why it was a bid deal for her.   I'm glad I was able to - it was a win-win for both of us.

 

re; the bolded - that's what life is about.  lifting others as high or higher than are we.

eta; justasque - with my "taking other kids to $20 activities", I was trying to get her to change her perspective and see it from their pov.  I think other's have done a better job than did I.

Edited November 28, 2017 by gardenmom5

[8circles]

Quill, your Judgey McJudgerson is showing again.

 

If you don’t want your kid to go, that’s fine. Say No.

 

But the rest of the commentary is just way over the line. Different people are different. That’s life. Getting all up on your high horse about how they do sleepovers or vacations doesn’t paint you in a very pretty light. In fact the pretty to petty typo I just had in the previous sentence seemed rather fitting.

 

I'm not Quill but since I fully see her POV I'll chime in. I don't think this is a fair assessment.

 

We are all products of our life experiences. Quill has acknowledged that some of this is jealousy. Beyond that, I can say that it isn't me being judgmental, it's learning from my history. There have been some posts which sound really lovely - justasque in particular. I don't know anyone like that IRL.  IME people aren't this nice. I started off my parenthood assuming that they were and got burned. Several times. If I did know people who were truly like justasque, I'd be more likely to be able to view this experience as a positive. 

[Garga]

This is a toughie.

 

If it was something I was going to do with my kids myself, then I'd want to do it myself (the snow-in for example). Easy.

 

But if it was something I could never offer my children in a million years? That's harder. I would feel terrible denying them a once-in-a-lifetime trip.

 

If you really, really believe your son will become entitled and cocky from this one trip, then don't send him. But if you think the experience will enrich him, though you feel funny about not being able to reciprocate, then I'd probably send him.

[amy g.]

And for the record, I’d let my kid keep the Lexus too.

 

I have never taught my kids to expect things to be equal or fair. That just isn’t how life is.

 

One of my kids has a nice, late model BMW. Another drives and old hand-me-down Toyota. A third has a nice Mustang now, but used to drive an old beater, Park Avenue. All of them are grateful for having been given cars that they did not have to pay for. None of them compares what they have been given to what the others have.

 

We give each child what we believe they need within our limitations at that date and time. That is it.

 

They do not have resentment at being treated differently.

[8circles]

Oh, wait, it was this: I would hope you could get to the place where you acknowledge a mismatch without assigning motives, Quill, they might not intend to cause all these conflicting your head. As others have said, this is just their culture, and they are probably thankful for their kids' friends who help to make life fun for their children.

 

This is lovely.

[lauraw4321]

And for the record, I’d let my kid keep the Lexus too.

 

 

 

Me too.

[mathnerd]

OP, I don't see what the problem is. He is your child. Say "yes" or "no" depending on what you want. There is no right answer, just what your family prefers. If your DH is making conflicting decisions because you guys are not on the same page, that is a simple matter to fix - just tell him to check with you next time before committing. I live in an area with super high COL - millionaires and Billionaires abound in my county - I don't compare - I provide my best for my child and explain that other kids doing something or buying stuff does not mean that we need to follow suit. The explanation goes down well with my son and he understands. 

 

My son is driven around by me in a very good car, to very expensive sports coaching, music lessons and other enrichment lessons on a daily basis. I even provide nice snacks in between the lessons. Does that make him entitled because my parents never drove me anywhere for anything? No. I am aware that my son works really hard at his sports and music day in and day out and that he has some talents and that I am enabling him to reach his potential in the best way that I can, which I consider parental responsibility. To compare myself with other parents, to compare my kid with other people's kids and the opportunities that they have and to compare my child's lifestyle with my own decades ago is pointless. Every child is unique, their families are unique.

[scrapbookbuzz]

We've never actually had that happne to us so I can't say for sure but my thought right now is:

 

1) I would SO love to be able to say to a friend, "Hey, we're going (wherever) and we'd like to have (your kiddo) come along with us." 

2) It's not trying to one-up you. They're blessed with extra funds and like to use it to spend time with kids and their friends. I don't see anything wrong with that.

3) If you can't afford but have wanted to take the same trip for awhile, why deny your child that opportunity? Not judging, just curious. I'm totally up for someone being able to take my kids

on a fun trip that I wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

 

Is there a deeper issue here in that ultimately you don't trust the parent with your kid for an extended period of time?

 

[fraidycat]

I'm not Quill but since I fully see her POV I'll chime in. I don't think this is a fair assessment.

 

We are all products of our life experiences. Quill has acknowledged that some of this is jealousy. Beyond that, I can say that it isn't me being judgmental, it's learning from my history. There have been some posts which sound really lovely - justasque in particular. I don't know anyone like that IRL. IME people aren't this nice. I started off my parenthood assuming that they were and got burned. Several times. If I did know people who were truly like justasque, I'd be more likely to be able to view this experience as a positive.

Grouching about movies and laser tag for entertainment at a sleepover or that *ANY* family *EVER* takes extra people along on a vacation is nothing but judgmental.

 

If Quill prefers not to do those things, Quill can do Quill. If her DS’s friend family prefers to do those things then let Friend Family do Friend Family. The problem is that Quill is resentful and judgmental that Friend Family is doing their thing and it’s not *exactly how SHE thinks they should do it*, and now she’s annoyed that they’re not following her script.

[8circles]

Grouching about movies and laser tag for entertainment at a sleepover or that *ANY* family *EVER* takes extra people along on a vacation is nothing but judgmental.

 

If Quill prefers not to do those things, Quill can do Quill. If her DS’s friend family prefers to do those things then let Friend Family do Friend Family. The problem is that Quill is resentful and judgmental that Friend Family is doing their thing and it’s not *exactly how SHE thinks they should do it*, and now she’s annoyed that they’re not following her script.

 

And you're entitled to your opinion about Quill.

 

I just don't think it's a fair assessment. 

[fraidycat]

And you're entitled to your opinion about Quill.

 

I just don't think it's a fair assessment.

Put yourself in Friend Family’s shoes then.

 

Do something nice for your kid and invite a friend to laser tag or a movie.

 

Then have Quill blast your family values on the internet because you should be making *family ONLY* memories at all times.

 

Tell me if she’s being judgmental then. Or if it’s only “others†(with too much money) who do life/entertainment/vacation/family togetherness wrong.

[skimomma]

I think it works well for playdates or short local trips. Not for trips out of the country.

 

 

That's your opinion.  Some people do think it "works well" for trips out of the country.  My personal line is somewhere between "short local trips" and "trips out of the country," but that is for each to make their own call.  There is no right or wrong here.  

 

Some families have a different definition of "family."  Some expand that definition generously.  

[lamppost]

 

 

I don't think Quill is miffed simply that they asked this one time - it's that they ask all the time as if they are unable to do anything without her child as entertainment.

 

 

I'm truly baffled by all the negativity. If they enjoy her son's company, that doesn't mean he's being used as "entertainment" as if he's a plaything they own. 

Nor does it mean they're unable to do anything without inviting a friend, or that they don't understand the meaning of family, or that they're shallow people with materialistic values.

 

It's Just. An. Invitation. 

 

Some of these responses remind me of Sheldon fretting about being given a Christmas gift: 

"You haven't given me a gift; you've given me an obligation!"

 

 

I have a friend who often comments that slim/fit people she knows have "different values". Her evidence? They're slim & fit, so they must obsess over every calorie, neglect their children in favor of hours at the gym, and take perverse pride in turning the heads of the "normal" women's husbands. Do any of y'all think that's really the case for most people who aren't overweight?

 

 

[Catwoman]

It would be so nice if we could get past the preconceived notion that wealthy people aren't close to their families, and that they raise entitled brats, and are showing off or expect reciprocation when they do nice things for their kids' friends.

 

Some of us here are "that other family" and when we do nice things for other people's kids, I can confidently tell you that we're not showing off or trying to steal their children away from them and indoctrinate them into our so-called privileged lives. Our kids like certain other kids. The kids don't care how much -- or how little -- money the family has (and neither do we.) They just like the kids and want to be their friends and want to include them in our activities because they are fun to be with. There's no ulterior motive.

 

Honestly, if the parents in Quill's situation were the kind of people some are assuming they are, they would be too snobby to let their kids be around Quill's kids. From where I'm sitting, the "other family" sounds very nice. I think it's quite a compliment to Quill's son that the family likes him so much that they love including him in as many of their family activities as possible. And if Quill thinks her son is spending too much time with that family and not enough time at home, she can simply decline some of the invitations.

 

But I have to admit that it sounds like she's declining the vacation invitation for the wrong reasons. It sounds like she is jealous that her son will have fun without the rest of the family, and I think that's selfish. I can understand being worried about him being so far from home without her, but that doesn't seem to be the primary motivation here. We don't even know if her son wants to go on this vacation. For all we know, he might not even want to go.

[8circles]

Put yourself in Friend Family’s shoes then.

 

Do something nice for your kid and invite a friend to laser tag or a movie.

 

Then have Quill blast your family values on the internet because you should be making *family ONLY* memories at all times.

 

Tell me if she’s being judgmental then. Or if it’s only “others†(with too much money) who do life/entertainment/vacation/family togetherness wrong.

 

Well, I have been the inviting family. Yet I don't take anything that's been said here personally because she's given enough details that it doesn't apply to me. And frankly, I doubt it applies to you either.

[8circles]

That's your opinion.  Some people do think it "works well" for trips out of the country.  My personal line is somewhere between "short local trips" and "trips out of the country," but that is for each to make their own call.  There is no right or wrong here.  

 

And that's great. My comment was very clearly how *I* felt about it.

[lamppost]

 

 

have you ever had a kid with you from a much lower income family when you took your kids to a movie/activity? to McDs/ice-cream?   something that would be a huge deal for them, but you wouldn't even give it a thought because the extra $20 wasn't a big deal?  or irl do you only socialize with your exact income level?

 

 

 

We moved when I was 9 and the new neighbors took my brother and me out for a movie and McDonald's- their treat. It clearly wasn't a big deal for them, but I was astounded by the generosity, especially coming from people we'd only known a few months, and I'll never forget it. I knew my parents couldn't (or wouldn't?) ever do the same for our friends. 

 

 

Now, I love treating my kids' friends. The money isn't a big deal for us, we all enjoy the extra company (and yes, we do have LOTS of family togetherness and memories with just our nuclear family!) Some of their friends are not as well off and wouldn't be able to reciprocate in the same way. That's not a concern for me at all. But I would be appalled if any of them were silently judging our values just for extending the invitations (as some in this thread seem to be doing.)

[bettyandbob]

But I have to admit that it sounds like she's declining the vacation invitation for the wrong reasons. It sounds like she is jealous that her son will have fun without the rest of the family, and I think that's selfish. I can understand being worried about him being so far from home without her, but that doesn't seem to be the primary motivation here. We don't even know if her son wants to go on this vacation. For all we know, he might not even want to go.

This is where I am.

 

Quill doesn't say this family has been a bad influence on her DS. If she did I'd wonder why her DS was spending do much time in the first place. It sounds more like jealousy on her part.

 

Frankly I get jealous of friends, but I try really hard to not let it show. Sometimes I feel rotten about my financial situation and I have friends who comfortably do lots of stuff. It's my problem. I need to keep it to myself. I certainly don't drop judgement on them. I'd really be a bad guy if I taught my dc to judge people based on income.

 

My kids have wealthy friends too. I don't keep my DC from doing stuff. If the parents didn't hold the same values, discipline for similar things, monitor behavior similarly then I'd probably limit contact in the friendship. That has nothing to do with wealth.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Diana P.

[Katy]

Wow! I can’t imagine where you get the knowledge that “family togetherness/closeness is not as important†in affluent households. That is quite an assumption.

 

The very most selfish/materialistic family I know lives below the poverty level.

 

One’s assets do not dictate values.

 

<snip>

It is very simplistic to think that you know what a family values just because you have info on their bank account.

 

 

It would be so nice if we could get past the preconceived notion that wealthy people aren't close to their families, and that they raise entitled brats, and are showing off or expect reciprocation when they do nice things for their kids' friends.

 

<snip>

 

Oh goodness, this idea that family isn't as important to the upper class isn't my notion, it's sociologist Paul Fussel's, and I learned it at a highly selective New England University.  I thought it was ridiculous too, until I spent more time with the families of my friends that WERE boarding school educated trust fund babies, and saw that it did seem to be an entirely different dynamic than even that of my upper middle class friends.  Then I got engaged to the child of investment bankers and after the round of parties and dinners and everything slowly figured out that they DID have completely different and off-putting values.  Now Fussell would say this is because my family was varying shades of middle class and the guy I was engaged to was clearly upper.  I would shade that with the idea that Fussell was focused on the differences between New England upper class and that the Civil War changed the class indicators in the South to some degree (I think family is more important in the South).

 

I don't know what's happened on the board this week, perhaps holiday stress is making everyone a bit petulant.  I don't agree with Quill but I think several people here aren't being their normally diplomatic selves or recognizing that anyone who's been here for longer than two months KNOWS that Quill is an amazing woman who is just venting and you can all stop judging her.  Just stop.

[Seeking Squirrels]

While I may be a bit jealous that the other family was able to offer so much and I couldn't, I don't think I would let that hold me back from saying yes. Of course I would love for my kids to be able to have a ton of wonderful memories with us. I would love for them to remember when our family went to Paris or on a cruise or something. But if I can't provide that, I would rather they experience it without me than not at all. 

 

DH and I decided a while back that we wouldn't wait on opportunities in order to maybe involve the other parent. Kid really wants to see something in town but DH is working and we can't find a time for all four of us to go? I take the kids myself. He wants to be part of the memory, but it's not worth the kids missing it all together since he can't be. If something comes up while DH is at work (or alternately if he is out with the kids and I'm busy with something else), we don't say "Oh maybe next time when spouse can come along!" Nope, we give the kids whatever experience is on offer and try to take pics for the missing parent. 

 

If my child truly got on really well with the friend, I trusted the parents, and there were no major reasons to keep them home (such as missing something big our own family had planned, or if the destination were questionable), then I would let them go. If I were worried about the reciprocation aspect, I might say something about that. "Thank you so much for your very generous offer. Before accepting, I just want to make sure you realize that we will never be in a position where we can offer the same to your son, much as we would like to" Likely response "Oh we don't expect anything in return! We just want son to have a good time with a friend!" "He would love to go then. Thank you so much for giving him this opportunity. Please let me know anything I need to do to prepare him for the trip."

[Arcadia]

ETA:

Never mind. My iPad is truncating my reply so it doesn’t make sense.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Arcadia

[fraidycat]

Well, I have been the inviting family. Yet I don't take anything that's been said here personally because she's given enough details that it doesn't apply to me. And frankly, I doubt it applies to you either.

I don’t understand this statement at all.

 

This isn’t about you or me. But sticking up for someone who is being smeared online for, as far as I can tell with the information given, being nice, sharing the wealth, extending generosity, and doing fun things for their kids AND their kids friends. Terrible people that they are.

 

It’s about community. Defending people who are not being given a chance to defend themselves. Perhaps if they really knew what Quill thinks of them and their family, they’d stop extending these invitations and save her all kinds of agitation.

 

Here’s a little test: If Quill can say directly to these people all the things she’s said about them here, and still maintain the friendly relationship, with no repercussions, then there’s no problem. I’m willing to bet, though, that they would not really appreciate what is being said about them right now.

 

And for that I will stand up and say TO Quill that I think she’s out of line. I’m not taking this behind her back. She is right here, and can defend herself.

[8circles]

I don’t understand this statement at all.

 

This isn’t about you or me. But sticking up for someone who is being smeared online for, as far as I can tell with the information given, being nice, sharing the wealth, extending generosity, and doing fun things for their kids AND their kids friends. Terrible people that they are.

 

It’s about community. Defending people who are not being given a chance to defend themselves. Perhaps if they really knew what Quill thinks of them and their family, they’d stop extending these invitations and save her all kinds of agitation.

 

Here’s a little test: If Quill can say directly to these people all the things she’s said about them here, and still maintain the friendly relationship, with no repercussions, then there’s no problem. I’m willing to bet, though, that they would not really appreciate what is being said about them right now.

 

And for that I will stand up and say TO Quill that I think she’s out of line. I’m not taking this behind her back. She is right here, and can defend herself.

 

OK then.

 

It appears that you cannot relate to Quill's situation at all and have probably never experienced what she has described. I've been on both sides and I understand her point of view. Quill is venting about a situation IRL which bothers her - which people do here all.the.time. It makes me think there's something behind your defense of these people besides just that they aren't here. I think it's incredibly unkind of you to say these things about her. But clearly you don't so continue if you must.

[amy g.]

Maybe this is less about money than it is about how different people define family.

 

Not counting the benefits to my kids, I, personally have been so blessed and enriched by including extra kids we have included in our family.

 

Some of these kids are grown now with families of their own. They send me pictures of the rolls they made at Thanksgiving from my grandmother’s recipe that I taught them when they were 11.

 

They send me pictures of how they are incorporating Easter Nests in their kids Easter traditions which has been passed down from my German great grandmother.

 

They remember fondly coming over every year for snacks and music on Christmas Day.

 

We have become family. Some have less money. Some have more. Why does it even matter.

 

Does being able to enjoy folding in extra kids mean I don’t value my own family? I don’t think anyone who knows us in real life would ever agree with that.

 

This thread just prompted me to invite an extra kid to spend Christmas with us.

 

Her parents might say yes. They did last year. They might say that they already have plans, but I guarantee that they won’t be asking each other if I have ever even heard of a family holiday.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don’t understand this statement at all.

 

This isn’t about you or me. But sticking up for someone who is being smeared online for, as far as I can tell with the information given, being nice, sharing the wealth, extending generosity, and doing fun things for their kids AND their kids friends. Terrible people that they are.

 

It’s about community. Defending people who are not being given a chance to defend themselves. Perhaps if they really knew what Quill thinks of them and their family, they’d stop extending these invitations and save her all kinds of agitation.

 

Here’s a little test: If Quill can say directly to these people all the things she’s said about them here, and still maintain the friendly relationship, with no repercussions, then there’s no problem. I’m willing to bet, though, that they would not really appreciate what is being said about them right now.

 

And for that I will stand up and say TO Quill that I think she’s out of line. I’m not taking this behind her back. She is right here, and can defend herself.

This is really over the top! Where are you on the other twenty thousand threads discussing life's situations, including talking about people "behind their backs" (which is not the usual interpretation of anonymous references on Internet message boards)? Why the crusade against Quill only, in this thread only?

 

In addition to not being a horrible person for using this chat forum the same way everybody else does, Quill has obviously been attempting to practice self reflection throughout the conversation. That's what these threads are about - even if we sound JAWM'y in the OP, it takes a real narcissist to not also mean, on some level, "do I need to check myself?" People don't have to come back and fall on their swords for us...it is their business whether they learn something or change their perspective in one afternoon...

 

:/

[Catwoman]

Oh goodness, this idea that family isn't as important to the upper class isn't my notion, it's sociologist Paul Fussel's, and I learned it at a highly selective New England University.  I thought it was ridiculous too, until I spent more time with the families of my friends that WERE boarding school educated trust fund babies, and saw that it did seem to be an entirely different dynamic than even that of my upper middle class friends.  Then I got engaged to the child of investment bankers and after the round of parties and dinners and everything slowly figured out that they DID have completely different and off-putting values.  Now Fussell would say this is because my family was varying shades of middle class and the guy I was engaged to was clearly upper.  I would shade that with the idea that Fussell was focused on the differences between New England upper class and that the Civil War changed the class indicators in the South to some degree (I think family is more important in the South).

 

I don't know what's happened on the board this week, perhaps holiday stress is making everyone a bit petulant.  I don't agree with Quill but I think several people here aren't being their normally diplomatic selves or recognizing that anyone who's been here for longer than two months KNOWS that Quill is an amazing woman who is just venting and you can all stop judging her.  Just stop.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't personally think that just because Fussell said it and that you learned it at a highly selective New England University necessarily means it's absolutely correct or that we should all agree with his findings.

 

And Quill knows I like her and that I generally agree with her, so I hope she doesn't think I'm taking any personal shots at her. I assumed she started the thread to hear others' opinions on the topic.

[fraidycat]

OK then.

 

It appears that you cannot relate to Quill's situation at all and have probably never experienced what she has described. I've been on both sides and I understand her point of view. Quill is venting about a situation IRL which bothers her - which people do here all.the.time. It makes me think there's something behind your defense of these people besides just that they aren't here. I think it's incredibly unkind of you to say these things about her. But clearly you don't so continue if you must.

I do believe we must be reading different threads, so we’ve reached an impasse. Perhaps you can summarize the situation as you see it, because what I have read is that a family has invited her son to sleepovers, snow days, and during that time they spend money on certain entertainment venues such as movies and laser tag instead of sitting at home. And now, they’ve invited him on a vacation.

 

Nowhere in there do I see their wicked ways, lack of family values, and horrible parenting.

 

What am I supposed to relate to?

[8circles]

I do believe we must be reading different threads, so we’ve reached an impasse. Perhaps you can summarize the situation as you see it, because what I have read is that a family has invited her son to sleepovers, snow days, and during that time they spend money on certain entertainment venues such as movies and laser tag instead of sitting at home. And now, they’ve invited him on a vacation.

 

Nowhere in there do I see their wicked ways, lack of family values, and horrible parenting.

 

What am I supposed to relate to?

 

You haven't seen it because Quill hasn't accused them of those things. 

 

Theoretically you could relate to being on the receiving end of lots of invitations from one family. It doesn't appear that you can. Which is fine. But now you're demonizing Quill - as if that's somehow noble - because you think she has demonized someone else. Which she hasn't, IMO. As I said before, it isn't so simple to have a child invited places (what seems like) all the time.

[Starr]

I haven't read all the replies but I do relate to the OP. I have many thoughts. Quill just say no if you want him home at any given time.  :grouphug:

[Bootsie]

I have a friend who grew up in poverty, became a dentist, and married a doctor.  Her family income was way beyond what she grew up with and she wanted to make sure her own children did not feel entitled.  She was extremely generous.  Her personal rule was that it was too extravagant to do something for her own children if she was not willing to do it for someone else's child, also.  So, anything her children got for Christmas meant that another child was gifted an equivalent item.  If she was taking her own children to the theme park, she would take another child also     When they traveled, they shared the trip with others. It was even to the point that any $ put away for her children's education were matched with dollars for a scholarship for some other child.

 

It was her way of sharing, not of trying to show off or be extravagant.  It was important to her to teach her kids to share their blessings. That was a strong part of their family culture.    

[Dmmetler]

I invite DD’s friends places quite a bit because so many things are set up for families of four or for groups of 2. With only one child, we have a lot of times where taking an extra child has no extra cost beyond maybe packing a few extra snacks or an extra sandwich. Heck, for DD’s upcoming cheer competition, where the required hotel has a water park, the room can hold 6, and includes passes for 6-with a family of 3, it almost seems a waste NOT to take an extra kid or two!

[fraidycat]

This is really over the top! Where are you on the other twenty thousand threads discussing life's situations, including talking about people "behind their backs" (which is not the usual interpretation of anonymous references on Internet message boards)? Why the crusade against Quill only, in this thread only?

 

In addition to not being a horrible person for using this chat forum the same way everybody else does, Quill has obviously been attempting to practice self reflection throughout the conversation. That's what these threads are about - even if we sound JAWM'y in the OP, it takes a real narcissist to not also mean, on some level, "do I need to check myself?" People don't have to come back and fall on their swords for us...it is their business whether they learn something or change their perspective in one afternoon...

 

:/

My goodness.

 

First, if you read back, I very often encourage going TO the source and discussing with them if and when possible. I’m a very direct person. If I have a problem with someone, I tell them. I encourage others to do the same.

 

Second, usually there is a problem where someone is being mean, rude, disrespectful to a boardie and the behavior is discussed. None of that applies in this situation with this other family. Their “lack of family values†for extending invitations and including others in their fun times is not equivalent.

 

Third, not once did I say Quill is a horrible person. There is no “crusadeâ€. In fact Judgey McJudgerson is a name that Quill gave to HERSELF, I’m just pointing out that it’s showing in this context.

 

Fourth, if there’s an implied question, then my direct answer is Yes, she needs to check herself. Question asked and answered. I like Quill, and often agree with her on many things. Sometimes we disagree. This is one of those times.

[marbel]

I don't believe that Quill is saying no one should ever invite anyone's kid to anything, or that kids should never be allowed to have friends along.  I'm getting that it's too often, and now, with this big trip, too much $$$ for her to feel comfortable (among other things).

 

I think people who have "the more the merrier" attitude, and have the funds to invite extra people along, don't get that it can be uncomfortable for the person constantly being invited (or the parents of that person). it's not comfortable never being able to reciprocate and feeling as if you are in debt to someone for social activities.   

 

[mamakelly]

Gosh, I’d be thrilled if someone offered to take my kid on a vacation that I couldn’t afford. I mean, I’d feel envious for about 30 minutes, and then say “Heck Yes!!†I wouldn’t begrudge my kid a super cool trip because we couldn’t afford it.

Edited November 28, 2017 by mamakelly

[creekland]

I don’t even think that necessarily makes kids entitled. They’re questioning things that are different than what they’re used to. They’re used to having an open snack cupboard or a Mom who runs to chick fil a. In my kids’ experience, everyone has streaming Amazon prime and Netflix and iPhones. They’re used to being able to FaceTime with whom ever they want. If someone had, say, a non smart phone, they’d question it to. Not out of entitlement but just because they’re kids and it’s out of their realm of experience.

 

For the record, if I hadn’t been able to go to amusement parks, WDW and Hawaii with people other than my immediate family, I would never have gone. I am incredibly thankful as an adult for families that let me experience things that my FOO would never have been able to afford at that point in time. I married a man who detests traveling and hates vacations, to the point we didn’t go on a honeymoon. If i didn’t do those things as a child, i probably never would have.

I would let my child go in a heartbeat, but creating family memories isn’t something high on my list of important things. Those happen naturally. I can’t imagine being upset over my kid spending a snowstorm away from me. Like none of this is even on my radar at all.

 

Some people can take expensive trips and they have more fun if friends come. There’s nothing wrong with it. If you’re uncomfortable, decline. But don’t keep your child from an amazing trip over jealousy or desire to build family memories that are not likely to happen.

 

I agree almost totally, except creating family memories is SUPER high on our list of important things.  Some of those terrific memories are when our kids (or us parents) get back from a solo trip somewhere awesome, we sit around and share pictures and stories.  I suppose we're jealous in a way, but we simply can't all be together all the time and we certainly weren't going to tell our kids "no" just because we were bummed we - or our other lads - couldn't go too.

 

Going on other trips never once spoiled our boys from enjoying our family trips.  They even enjoy it when we invite their significant others to join us.

 

 

I don't disagree with you.

 

But, I have known a few families who were wealthy, had nice big houses, great vacations every year, all nice things. Their kids understood - their parents explained - that not everyone had the same things they did... but the kids ended up pitying those who didn't have what they took for granted.  So the relationship is unbalanced.  Who wants a friend who feels sorry for them because they don't have a pool, don't have their own gaming system that doesn't have to be shared with siblings...?  

 

That's not to say no one should have nice things or more than anyone else. That's just real life.  But I don't think it's as easy as wealthy parents teaching their kids that others live differently.   Or maybe it's the way they teach it.

 

I think many things need to be experienced.  More than once I've seen and heard American kids get super surprised when they find out poor kids in third world countries have fun - play games - enjoy life.  This opens up their eyes to the whole idea that material things aren't necessary for happiness.  It's a great lesson to learn.  Many kids return from trips like these needing so much "less" in their lives.  The US media/advertisers and our (collective American) lifestyle portrays more toys as better and happier.  It isn't that way, but that fact needs to be seen to be totally understood by most.

 

My own kids - young twenty somethings now - are some of the least materialistic lads out there, and they're still quite happy.  They'd be very poor examples on House Hunters.   :lol:

 

These are pretty big negatives for me. I wouldn't want my kid to go on a trip with his friend to entertain him so the parents could be alone. Neither would I want my kid to be the example of someone who "lives differently". What does that mean? Someone who can't afford nice trips? (We do take nice trips so this isn't personal.) That doesn't sound very nice.

 

It means there's a diversity in this world, this country (any country), this state (or province), and this area.  We all choose to do different things and own different things.  There is no "right."  There are only different choices.  What works best for someone is finding what they like and delving more into that.  It may be what their parents chose - or it might not be.  There's no way to know without knowing there are options out there.

 

We don't expect our kids to necessarily follow in mom or dad's footsteps for jobs, but they need to see what other options are out there to know what they might like.  It's the same with a plethora of other things.

 

One’s assets do not dictate values.

 

...

 

It is very simplistic to think that you know what a family values just because you have info on their bank account.

 

This is so true.  I learned a ton about how wealth (or lack thereof) doesn't really change much when I went to a wealthy private school for my 10th grade year.  There were some awesome kids (and parents) at that school.  There are plenty of awesome kids (and parents) at the public school where I work too - all income levels and backgrounds.

 

Reading this thread, I'm beginning to relate a bit to The Hillbilly Elegy...

 

It’s more that I’m upset that this is a “thing.†DH and I have talked a LOT about how this family *always* has to have friends there for the kids. Like, if one kid is going to have a friend sleep over, they will call us right up so the other kid can have a friend too. Or, they will want ds to stay for days and it just seems so excessive to me. Or, like, it can’t just be that ds sleeps over and that’s fun, it’s like there has to be some big entertainment aspect to it, like they have to go to the movies or do lazer tag or whatever.

 

So it’s not that I’m mad they asked. It’s more that I’m annoyed *anyone* thinks this is how family vacations ought to be done. Some of it is just I don’t like the societal direction of kids have to have everything catered up the wazoo.

 

My snappy remark when DH told me of the offer was, “Haven’t they ever heard of a FAMILY vacation?â€

 

I’m also just under a ton or pressure at the moment and I’m not in a good spot.

 

:grouphug:

 

But it's still not fair the way you are judging them IMO.  They are doing what they like to do.  That's truthfully ok.  It's also ok that you choose differently for your family vacations.  We camp for many of ours, but I don't judge those who look at our pics and say they could never do that!

 

If you are planning on taking your family to wherever it is they are going, then it's honestly not a big deal if you tell your guy to wait as y'all want to have fun together.  ;)

[lauraw4321]

I have written several responses and deleted them all.  

 

I guess what it boils down to for me is this:  if I felt like they were trying to buy my son's affections, I wouldn't be at all happy.  If I felt like they were extending affection, I would be very happy.

 

Here is the thing I always told my son (an only):  When you get older, it will be important that you have someone in your life who holds your past, who has known you all along.  You don't have brothers and sisters, so we're going to be faithful to the friends who you can know all your life. 

 

::SNIP::

 

My parents belonged to a bridge club for 50 years, and all the kids grew up knowing one another.  Even though we were not close or even friends in the same high school (!), when I reconnected with them a couple of years ago, we had SO much to talk and laugh about--really fun memories that not one person from post-high school shares with me.  We had a wonderful time, and have a closeness that can only come from shared memories.  Even though my parents did not share these memories, they made them possible.  

 

This is so SO true for me as an only child. Yes, you've put this really well. And I do have those friends who have known me forever. And those friendships are so important to me.

[mamakelly]

Something to think about....when I was growing up, we didn’t have a ton of money, but we did take a lot of trips- we went camping, to the river etc... My mom always let me bring a friend. The girl and I are still friends, 35+ years later. She has such fond memories of taking trips with our family. Her family didn’t go much of anywhere, so as an adult, she is thankful for those experiences.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

I think many things need to be experienced.  More than once I've seen and heard American kids get super surprised when they find out poor kids in third world countries have fun - play games - enjoy life.  This opens up their eyes to the whole idea that material things aren't necessary for happiness.  It's a great lesson to learn.  Many kids return from trips like these needing so much "less" in their lives.  The US media/advertisers and our (collective American) lifestyle portrays more toys as better and happier.  It isn't that way, but that fact needs to be seen to be totally understood by most.

 

My own kids - young twenty somethings now - are some of the least materialistic lads out there, and they're still quite happy.  They'd be very poor examples on House Hunters.   :lol:

 

<snip>

 

I'm not following you here. A person doesn't need to go to a third world country to see that material things aren't needed for happiness.  One of the  ways my kids learned about that was by sponsoring a child and writing letters back and forth.  Very exciting to read that the small birthday gift we'd sent paid for a goat to increase the family's flock, among other things.

 

But I've also heard the opposite of the bolded:  that many kids come back from such trips feeling pity for the poorer people they met, and relieve/happy they don't have to live in such a way. I'm not saying all come back that way, and certainly not your boys. I'm sure different people have different reactions.

 

When someone says to my kid "I don't know why anyone goes to an indoor water park in the summer, when they could just swim in their own pool at home" while standing in my back yard where there is no pool to be seen.... there is some sort of disconnect.  No third world country needed for that kid to see that not everyone lives the way she does, if she would only see it (or be shown it).   And no, my kids don't feel deprived because we have no pool, that's not my point. 

[rdj2027]

It isn't always about money but access to people and opportunity.  For those who are good at networking, bartering and seeing opportunities, life can be remarkably cheap.

[lauraw4321]

Something to think about....when I was growing up, we didn’t have a ton of money, but we did take a lot of trips- we went camping, to the river etc... My mom always let me bring a friend. The girl and I are still friends, 35+ years later. She has such fond memories of taking trips with our family. Her family didn’t go much of anywhere, so as an adult, she is thankful for those experiences.

 

Yes, this too.  There was a family that had fewer resources than mine, but loved to camp. They took me a few times, and those were my only camping experiences as a kid. I LOVED my time with them and still have so many clear memories from those trips. I was an only kid, and they had 6 kids in their family, plus other big families came along. It was great for me to get a chance to see big family life. 

[amy g.]

Family doesn't have to just be the family you are born into.

And sometimes the family you choose is your refuge from the family you are born into.

[creekland]

I'm not following you here. A person doesn't need to go to a third world country to see that material things aren't needed for happiness.  One of the  ways my kids learned about that was by sponsoring a child and writing letters back and forth.  Very exciting to read that the small birthday gift we'd sent paid for a goat to increase the family's flock, among other things.

 

But I've also heard the opposite of the bolded:  that many kids come back from such trips feeling pity for the poorer people they met, and relieve/happy they don't have to live in such a way. I'm not saying all come back that way, and certainly not your boys. I'm sure different people have different reactions.

 

When someone says to my kid "I don't know why anyone goes to an indoor water park in the summer, when they could just swim in their own pool at home" while standing in my back yard where there is no pool to be seen.... there is some sort of disconnect.  No third world country needed for that kid to see that not everyone lives the way she does, if she would only see it (or be shown it).   And no, my kids don't feel deprived because we have no pool, that's not my point. 

 

In my experience, those who give gifts like you mention tend to be those who pity others more. It is, after all, the "gift" that provided happiness in letters like that. Those who spend time with them realize material things are separate from happiness.  Material things are needed and can provide a better life nuts and bolts style (perhaps food and shelter style), but it doesn't change happiness.

 

I fully agree that many come back from those types of trips (whether as a teen or adult) relieved that they don't have to live that way.  This doesn't have to be to a third world country.  This just has to be somewhere outside their norm.  I'm rather happy I don't have to live in the desert!  ;)  They still usually get the idea that folks there are happy.  (The family we just left who lives in the desert loves it - perfectly happy.  It's just a different life - one we were happy to share for a period of time.)

 

The adult or youngster who made the comment you mentioned is merely realizing they prefer a pool to an indoor water park.  That's ok.  My family would prefer the indoor water park, and even then, that destination has only been chosen once because we prefer other places more than it.  My lads would have started a fun discussion over which was better - and it's quite ok if different participants came to different conclusions.  People learn that folks have differences as they experience it.  They don't innately know.  Same with adults.

[bettyandbob]

And sometimes the family you choose is your refuge from the family you are born into.

My dh benefitted greatly from spending time with his best friend's family. He spent many nights at their kitchen table in middle and high school. The relationship continues today. He served as a pall bearer when friends father died 25 years ago. Friend's mom has Alzheimer's now.

 

Dh is 60 now. Having that relationship and spending time with another family did not hurt his relationship with his own family. Dh visits his mom (85) at her condo every Sunday today.

 

Having strong connections outside of family does not necessarily lead to weak family connections.

[Guest]

This is a toughie.

 

If it was something I was going to do with my kids myself, then I'd want to do it myself (the snow-in for example). Easy.

 

But if it was something I could never offer my children in a million years? That's harder. I would feel terrible denying them a once-in-a-lifetime trip.

 

If you really, really believe your son will become entitled and cocky from this one trip, then don't send him. But if you think the experience will enrich him, though you feel funny about not being able to reciprocate, then I'd probably send him.

It’s not really that. It’s more that I think the whole family acts entitled. Like, the children can certainly never go on a trip with just their sibling and parents; they can’t even stand for one child to have a sleepover guest when the other does not. It is always both kids have to have a buddy. I don’t want my kid to be the entertainment committee. The parents think this is a “must†and it bugs me.

 

That’s also not my only reason; there’s other things like costs we will have to pay for and general queasiness about having my minor child very far away and under their care - not that they aren’t caring folks, but you know. Accidents happen. Water terrifies me. I’m pathologically afraid of my kids drowning. Stuff like that. I might be a basket case with my young kid at a water location a jillion miles from my freakishly overprotective hawkeye.

[Guest]

Sorry I can’t address every post in here. I have a bunch of stuff I have to go do and I must sign off for a while.