Does anyone else see this? Do you think it is cause for concern?

[MotherGoose]

 

I guess that makes sense though, that it's cropping up more now. 15 years ago, they would've been shut out of the homeschooling world because lack of the internet resources would've made it a non-starter. But now, it's at the tip of everyone's fingers and I do think it's become somewhat trendy.

 

I also think too much out there makes homeschooling sound far easier than it is. I used to hate those K12 ads on TV for that reason. It gave the whole "having your kid plugged in online to our course 8 hours a day" is exactly the same as having your kid in a classroom at school, and no work for you!

 

I am definitely not against outsourcing in the least, but I think there is a massive difference between involved outsourcing, and "someone else deal with this, I need to go to work," type outsourcing. (not saying you can't homeschool and work.) But like your post- they don't even want to take the time into learning about the program. It's more like, "Here's my child, please teach them, I'll be over there," in which case I DO wonder WHY they left the public school system in the first place. It's not even on the same planet as those of us who work with our kids to find out what they want to do, and the best way to get there, and then research the classes, pay the money, and help the kid manage the course, you know? It's more like your latter case, I can see the worry- we all worry. But I don't want my outsourcing which is carefully thought out, researched to death, and then monitored to ever be equated with someone who picks K12 and never takes a second look or has zero clue what their kid is studying! I think we need better defined terminology on the outsourcing front. Outsourcing is not outsourcing is not outsourcing! :) [/quo

 

I don't understand the looking for online curriculum either as the full time school for a younger child. Unless you are truly homeschooling out of desperation in a brick and mortar setting, it seems like it would be better for everyone to send the kids to school.

[LMD]

Opening the door to requiring standardized testing is not something I want. I can see it might have utility, but we wouldn't be cashing in those vouchers.

 

Slipperly slope unless 100% voluntary.

 

We should be agitating for evidence based regulations. It will be a problem for them, because they don't have evidence of what works in a homeschool population. So I guess they will have to go out and find it.

They won't. They don't care about what works. Clearly.

They just care about keeping tabs on those divergent elements. Won't somebody think of the children? (Not the parents though...)

 

My tin foil hat is super stylish.

[Anne in CA]

I don't want to call anybody out by quoting, but that sentiment, "I was accomplishing so much more than public schools could even dream..."

 

on one hand, I know what you mean, because that's what I say (in some areas), too.

 

On the other hand, I'm still waiting to meet the first non-schooler who does NOT say that, even if her kids are getting their entire education from Minecraft.

 

It's become a hollow claim, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I have never met someone who says this who is not excelling in academics. Even the unschooled kids I knew back in the day in Portland could mostly read and do a lot of math by first grade, so I never really worried about them. They WERE doing more than the standards of public school at that time. I probably was not in the circles to meet people who just kept their kids at home watching TV. 

 

Only because of the board do I know about people who aren't getting a lot of academic work done at home. I believe you all now. For a long time I felt like those home schoolers who did nothing were like Bigfoot, everyone knew someone who'd seen one, lol. I do get there are more of them now because where there is smoke there is fire and all these people aren't meeting them without them being there. 

 

When I say my kids excelled  beyond any measure of public school I mean they read the Bible multiple times, Shakespeare, books like Moby Dick and Don Quixote before they were fourteen. That is something at simply is not going to happen in a public school setting. My youngest took her first SAT last year and blew it out of the water, but I must give a bunch of credit for that to her ps math teacher. That teacher is AMAZING. I have had issues with Common Core and how they are teaching math, but if my dd can get an SAT score like that with absolutely no prep courses or practice tests at all, I will not complain any more. 

 

My only weak link as a home school mom was science, and all three of my kids have done very, very well in science in high school and college, mostly because they are interested in it and know how to learn. I do think that my neighbors saw my kids playing outside at random times, they saw us coming and going to lessons and co-op, and probably thought we weren't doing much school. I would not be surprised if people in my neighborhood thought we did no school work and just went here and there all the time, lol.

 

I think we, as home schoolers in the earlier generations did not let people know how hard it is to do it right, and that is part of the problem with people thinking that just keeping them home is enough. Many of our kids had a lot of success that others though was simply from keeping them home. I do think I could have done 1/2 of what I did and it would have been equal to or better than the public schools in my neighborhood at the time. I did more because I wanted the best for my kids. Many people don't want the best for their kids. As a matter of fact, many people want their kids not to surpass them in any way.

[TCB]

1) It really is not the same issue. I have never seen this depth of complete non-understanding in a non-disabled student who went to a PS recently. If it were all the same family I'd almost believe an occult learning disability but it's in more than one family. You can say whatever you want about the low standards in the PS but the low end on the homeschooled students is far below that.

 

2) An exam would solve the problem at the colleges but it's not going to solve the problem of kids who are supposedly high school graduates who aren't even prepared for remedial CC. Where do they go? Private tutors? Those cost money and someone who can't succeed in remedial classes probably isn't making the kind of money to afford them. GED classes? But they have a diploma. Self-education? Sure, but only practically attained by the extremely ambitious. 

 

It seems like you are saying that everyone should or can go to college. I don't think that's true and I think that is why college education is suffering as well. I don't think a college education is a realistic goal for absolutely everyone. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe in everyone having as much opportunity as possible to do their very best, but for some college is not realistic.

[kiana]

I don't understand the looking for online curriculum either as the full time school for a younger child. Unless you are truly homeschooling out of desperation in a brick and mortar setting, it seems like it would be better for everyone to send the kids to school.

 

If you think that public school is a nest of villainy where orgies occur in the hallways and children are taught to pray to Satan (ok, a little hyperbolic here) it makes perfect sense. 

[Rosie_0801]

I VASTLY prefer a 30 min home visit once every two years to any kind of testing.

 

There is evidence for testing as testing. There is zero evidence that educational testing encourages more people to register and reduces abuse and neglect. Zero.

 

Unfortunately it's not just a home visit every two years they are proposing. They want to go all QLD on us and prohibit us from withdrawing our kids from school without state permission, which won't be granted until a cog in the machine has read a full education plan that we will then be held to. Now I'm all for people having some clue what they're going to do before they pull their kids out, but emergencies happen and it's stupid to judge people against a plan they made up before they had a chance to know what they were doing.

 

 

I can't imagine that there is evidence that anything will make people who don't want to register do so. Deliberate abusers will continue not registering. I would think educational testing would be a catalyst for people to pull their socks up who'd been letting things slide too much, and it would alleviate the concerns of people who don't think they're doing enough and are really doing just fine. 

[Rosie_0801]

They won't. They don't care about what works. Clearly.

They just care about keeping tabs on those divergent elements. Won't somebody think of the children? (Not the parents though...)

 

My tin foil hat is super stylish.

 

They don't even care about keeping tabs on those divergent elements. They only care about the appearance of keeping tabs on those divergent elements.

[kiana]

It seems like you are saying that everyone should or can go to college. I don't think that's true and I think that is why college education is suffering as well. I don't think a college education is a realistic goal for absolutely everyone. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe in everyone having as much opportunity as possible to do their very best, but for some college is not realistic.

 

This is actually not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that intellectually capable children who have the desire to go to college or are interested in a career that requires college (medical school, for example) should have an education that allows them to move towards those goals. 

 

I am in full agreement with how much the "college for all" goal hurts kids who would be happier with a more hands-on career or who are just not ready for it at 18 but might do very well indeed at 22. I was such a student and I'm very glad I dropped out and worked for a while. 

[LMD]

Eh! I didn't say ed psychs on the government payroll! I was envisioning something administered through Medicare.

 

I think it is inevitable they are going to make more restrictive laws, allegedly to prevent abuse. So I'm trying to think of ways they could do that which would actually have some benefits to us. It is a benefit to have learning disabilities diagnosed. Most don't because it is too damned expensive. Assuming we are not neglecting our kids, the testing would serve as proof in our favour.

 

There's no way to make laws that keep the government entirely out of our biz while at the same time allowing them the info they need to catch abusers. Their proposed laws won't solve the problems they allegedly want to solve and will cause a whole lot more they haven't thought about, so I'm trying to think outside their box.

I am very very cynical that many ed psychs have any experience with homeschooling. I am not interested in that kind of appointment. The word mandatory gets my hackles up.

 

Offering a voucher, or even just a contact name!, as a support. Sure.

But the department has set this up as an us vs them rather than working together, so colour me cynical.

 

They're not actually trying to stop abuse or neglect with these changes. That's just the nice soundbite for media releases.

[LMD]

They don't even care about keeping tabs on those divergent elements. They only care about the appearance of keeping tabs on those divergent elements.

ðŸ˜

Yep!

[LMD]

They don't even care about keeping tabs on those divergent elements. They only care about the appearance of keeping tabs on those divergent elements.

And they only care about that to the point that it feeds the monster (more money/jobs for the department)

[kiana]

Rosie,

 

If regulations are coming in, what I'd like to see is something with multiple acceptable ways to demonstrate literacy and numeracy are being achieved at a reasonable level. In my personal opinion, while I firmly believe that other subjects are important, I consider what is taught in which grades to be far more subjective, and furthermore I consider those subjects far easier to catch up in when a student can read, write, reason, and do basic arithmetic. 

 

So an assessment with an ed psych could be one option. A home visit could be another. A standardized test taken outside of the home could be another. There are probably more that I'm missing, because I haven't really thought about this in that much detail. But passing any single one of these would be evidence that education was happening. And every single one of these should be provided by voucher. Heck, if you want to do ALL of them, have a voucher for them all. 

 

And yeah, the proposed regulations you're describing sound like an utter nightmare. Something where I'd be strongly tempted to move even if it meant giving up a lot of ties. 

[Bluegoat]

It's a lot easier, it's all over, it sounds so EASY, if you ask for free no-parent curriciulums you will get lots of suggestions. Is it good for homeschooling? Heck no.  I feel sorry for some of those kids.

I hear all the time "ANY school at home is better than public school" and I absolutely do not agree with that.

 

Something that strikes me is that even universities have had a hard time making online education really work. 

[Rosie_0801]

I am very very cynical that many ed psychs have any experience with homeschooling. I am not interested in that kind of appointment. The word mandatory gets my hackles up.

 

Offering a voucher, or even just a contact name!, as a support. Sure.

But the department has set this up as an us vs them rather than working together, so colour me cynical.

 

They're not actually trying to stop abuse or neglect with these changes. That's just the nice soundbite for media releases.

 

I wouldn't mind the soundbites if they weren't causing problems with them. Go ahead, make stuff up to sound good then continue ignoring us!

 

I'm not seeing how it matters whether the ed psychs have experience with homeschooling. Ours was anti-homeschooling, but has changed her mind as far as dd is concerned. We'd been seeing her weekly (for clinical psychology stuff, for paper trail for court) for about six months before I knew she had any stance at all.

 

Ed psychs are supposed to administer tests and comments about the results. Ours makes no comments about how we achieve those results. Even the neuropsychologist we had to see said she wasn't qualified to make recommendations, only to administer tests and make general comments like kids with audio processing problems require one on one or small group tuition. :rolleyes:

 

Refusing the proposed laws is one thing, but I think we have to propose an alternative ourselves and I haven't seen anything of that. I'm trying to brainstorm what it could be, knowing that no oversight is unlikely and definitely not wanting them to go all NSW+QLD on us.

[Rosie_0801]

And they only care about that to the point that it feeds the monster (more money/jobs for the department)

 

 

Not sure about that. If they want to go draconian on us, they must be trying to impress someone.

[Rosie_0801]

The other thing is that testing is $$. Is hearing that your child with audio issues needs one on one or small groups - something that is mere common sense - a good use of taxpayer resources ? 

 

Nope! But assuring boomers that their grandchildren are being properly Big Brothered must be, or the rest of the country wouldn't be doing it!

 

It's still cheaper than paying for their bottom to be on a seat in a public school. Apparently our government has forgotten we don't have NSW+QLD laws because it was a waste of money and it will be again.

 

 

 

Hearing that your kid has executive function issues or other labels you've never heard of but explain a hell of a lot might be worth it to a parent though.

[regentrude]

Something that strikes me is that even universities have had a hard time making online education really work. 

 

There are outstanding online courses out there.

 

One big problem is that online courses often draw a negative self selection of students: students who think it is easier if they don't have to get up and show up on campus at a certain time; students who have to repeat a class they failed and they find out when all the in seat spots are taken; students who don't get their act together and sign up the week before classes start, when all in -seat spots are taken. These groups are less likely to be successful, for reasons that have nothing to do with the online delivery format.

For students who seek out the online class because it fits their learning style, accommodates their disability,allows them to work around a scheduling conflict, or because they simply love the subject, tend to do very well. 

 

ETA: The most important ingredient necessary for success in an online class is self discipline. 50% of my online students self-report as their greatest obstacle "being distracted when I am on the computer"

Edited January 16, 2017 by regentrude

[Bluegoat]

Unfortunately it's not just a home visit every two years they are proposing. They want to go all QLD on us and prohibit us from withdrawing our kids from school without state permission, which won't be granted until a cog in the machine has read a full education plan that we will then be held to. Now I'm all for people having some clue what they're going to do before they pull their kids out, but emergencies happen and it's stupid to judge people against a plan they made up before they had a chance to know what they were doing.

 

 

I can't imagine that there is evidence that anything will make people who don't want to register do so. Deliberate abusers will continue not registering. I would think educational testing would be a catalyst for people to pull their socks up who'd been letting things slide too much, and it would alleviate the concerns of people who don't think they're doing enough and are really doing just fine. 

 

Around here it seems like most people who don't register aren't trying to avoid it, or even necessarily being involved in schooling.  They just don't seem to be people who are bothered about paperwork.

 

Offering testing might be a good carrot.  Homeschoolers here lobbied to be able to access some programs like speech path normally done through scools, and its pretty well used.  In general, I think access to services, including money and books, will encourage some to register or do more. 

 

I am a bad admin peron, but I would bite the bullet and do more if I could get money like in some other provinces.

 

Another potential benefit I could see, as long as it was done well, would be data collection. 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

Nope! But assuring boomers that their grandchildren are being properly Big Brothered must be, or the rest of the country wouldn't be doing it!

 

It's still cheaper than paying for their bottom to be on a seat in a public school. Apparently our government has forgotten we don't have NSW+QLD laws because it was a waste of money and it will be again.

 

 

 

Hearing that your kid has executive function issues or other labels you've never heard of but explain a hell of a lot might be worth it to a parent though.

 

Rosie, I'd heard that VIC was undergoing homeschooling reg changes. What's on the cards?

 

I'm in QLD and I have to say that I love our system here. To me, it's the goldilocks solution. Enough accountability to keep any doubters at bay, but without anyone sticking their nose into our day-to-day lives.

 

We have no mandated standardised tests, no mandated curriculum, no home visits ever. Our system here sounds a lot looser than NSW, from what I've heard.

 

I just have to provide a yearly report that demonstrates progress, a suitable learning environment and a loose plan/philosophy for the next year. There are a few hoops to jump through, but it really isn't that difficult. I get a letter saying 'yep, all good' and we're left alone for a whole year. 

[Bluegoat]

Not my university. Mine rocks online education. University of New England for anyone who wants to check it out. It's been in the distance game for a long time - my dad took his second degree there when I was a kid, when classes were posted in the mail. It can be done incredibly well, but it takes experience, expertise and effort. 

 

I was thinking you might say that when you wrote it - I remember you were really happy with your course.

 

But - you are an established adult who already has a basic education.

 

I think sometimes, in some subjects, it can be done well.  My library and information tech diploma was all available online and with most courses it wouldn't have been worse, and there wasn't much social component to the program.

 

In other subjects though, it would be difficult to do an entirely online set of courses.  Real discussion, mentorship, meeting different kinds of people, and the after class aspects of education are difficult to do well online.  I really can't picture a whole, good liberal arts program online.  I mean, you could do it, in a pinch, but it would be missing something and the student would have to be very diligent to try and make up for it.

 

With K-12, I think its more like the latter situation.

[Bluegoat]

There are outstanding online courses out there.

 

One big problem is that online courses often draw a negative self selection of students: students who think it is easier if they don't have to get up and show up on campus at a certain time; students who have to repeat a class they failed and they find out when all the in seat spots are taken; students who don't get their act together and sign up the week before classes start, when all in -seat spots are taken. These groups are less likely to be successful, for reasons that have nothing to do with the online delivery format.

For students who seek out the online class because it fits their learning style, accommodates their disability,allows them to work around a scheduling conflict, or because they simply love the subject, tend to do very well. 

 

ETA: The most important ingredient necessary for success in an online class is self discipline. 50% of my online students self-report as their greatest obstacle "being distracted when I am on the computer"

 

I don't mean the same thing by online education as an online class. 

[LMD]

I wouldn't mind the soundbites if they weren't causing problems with them. Go ahead, make stuff up to sound good then continue ignoring us!

 

I'm not seeing how it matters whether the ed psychs have experience with homeschooling. Ours was anti-homeschooling, but has changed her mind as far as dd is concerned. We'd been seeing her weekly (for clinical psychology stuff, for paper trail for court) for about six months before I knew she had any stance at all.

 

Ed psychs are supposed to administer tests and comments about the results. Ours makes no comments about how we achieve those results. Even the neuropsychologist we had to see said she wasn't qualified to make recommendations, only to administer tests and make general comments like kids with audio processing problems require one on one or small group tuition. :rolleyes:

 

Refusing the proposed laws is one thing, but I think we have to propose an alternative ourselves and I haven't seen anything of that. I'm trying to brainstorm what it could be, knowing that no oversight is unlikely and definitely not wanting them to go all NSW+QLD on us.

I mind if the person who is given authority to decide my fitness (or not) to homeschool has any understanding or experience with homeschooling.

I mind because it is misplacing the authority for decisions, from parents to the department/ed psych/approved person. I object to that. It is a huge step to wedge in between parent/child without evidence or cause.

 

My alternative is:

We already have abuse/neglect laws, we already sign a document agreeing to teach to certain standards. We already have high levels of compliance with these laws (highest in the country)

 

My alternative is a) prove there is a problem. b) prove how this solves the problem. c) don't discriminate - if it ain't mandatory for schools it ain't mandatory (I'm looking at you, naplan)

 

I would be okay with: working with children check when you register (just like a teacher), I would be okay with logging PD hours (like a teacher), I am okay with signing the form as it is. I am okay with offers of support from the department.

 

I think I am okay with submitting a 'mandatory reporter check' - maybe every second year? As long as I have a choice of reporters. I'm envisioning the times I already take my kid to the gp/hospital, they sign a slip - like a sick day slip. Just to tick the 'we leave the house and I feed them' slip.

 

I am okay with regulations for keeping basic records/portfolios in case of an accusation/investigation. NOT to be submitted or preapproved.

 

Remember, I'm not asking their permission, I'm doing them a courtesy of letting them know that they don't have to worry about my kids. The authority is mine to delegate or not.

[MotherGoose]

If you think that public school is a nest of villainy where orgies occur in the hallways and children are taught to pray to Satan (ok, a little hyperbolic here) it makes perfect sense.

Totally understand this! In education, as in all things, it's really helpful to know people from a wide variety of backgrounds so you can make informed decisions. I know plenty of good Christian people who send their kids to public school and turn out good, Christian children.

[dirty ethel rackham]

It seems like you are saying that everyone should or can go to college. I don't think that's true and I think that is why college education is suffering as well. I don't think a college education is a realistic goal for absolutely everyone. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely believe in everyone having as much opportunity as possible to do their very best, but for some college is not realistic.

Not everyone should go to college.  But we all have a vested interest in having an educated populace.  Employers are looking for people who have mastered some basic math and can communicate in writing.  Unfortunately, to many employers, a college education has become a marker to show that an individual has some of these basic skills.  My son, who graduated with honors in Biology, is marking time waiting for grad school, doing mindless office work and errands as an intern in an engineering firm.  Nothing he has done has really needed anything beyond a high school education. Even the lab tech temp jobs he has had really did not need a college education, but they wouldn't consider anyone for the job who didn't. 

[freesia]

I think my state is considered moderate regulation, but it's on the low end of moderate.  I live in an affluent area with tons of homeschoolers.  In our area I don't see that kind of homeschooling, although I'm sure it exist.  It's pretty much very academically competitive where I live.  I do think the homeschool kids start out a bit slower with academics, but tend to be on target with PS by 3rd grade and then tend to be "ahead" by middle school age.  It seems like at least 50% of students are DE by 11th grade and these kids are going to at least decent and a lot of the time very good colleges.  

 

I do wonder if just our low moderate regulations have something to do with that.  It's not much, but just enough so you can see that your hitting your targets every couple of years with testing.

 

I live in a high regulation state.  All homeschoolers I know have kids on grade level after 3rd (and having been a first and second grade teacher in a former life, I know that "grade level" is very variable earlier than that) except in the case of LDs.  I think that all the crazy reporting and paperwork does scare some folks away.  You can just pull your kid emotionally without a plan b/c you have to send in a plan 2 weeks later. 

 

However, we have too many regs.  I agree that I like Virginia's.

[Anne in CA]

Not everyone should go to college.  But we all have a vested interest in having an educated populace.  Employers are looking for people who have mastered some basic math and can communicate in writing.  Unfortunately, to many employers, a college education has become a marker to show that an individual has some of these basic skills.  My son, who graduated with honors in Biology, is marking time waiting for grad school, doing mindless office work and errands as an intern in an engineering firm.  Nothing he has done has really needed anything beyond a high school education. Even the lab tech temp jobs he has had really did not need a college education, but they wouldn't consider anyone for the job who didn't. 

We own a bakery. My dh does all the baking even though he used to be a hotshot CS engineer. The reason he must do all the baking is that NO ONE can use any scale to correctly measure anything. To say I am disappointed in the current system that let that happen would be an understatement. The unfortunate reality is that a hs diploma does not mean that someone knows any math. At. All. 

[Rosie_0801]

Rosie, I'd heard that VIC was undergoing homeschooling reg changes. What's on the cards?

 

I'm in QLD and I have to say that I love our system here. To me, it's the goldilocks solution. Enough accountability to keep any doubters at bay, but without anyone sticking their nose into our day-to-day lives.

 

We have no mandated standardised tests, no mandated curriculum, no home visits ever. Our system here sounds a lot looser than NSW, from what I've heard.

 

I just have to provide a yearly report that demonstrates progress, a suitable learning environment and a loose plan/philosophy for the next year. There are a few hoops to jump through, but it really isn't that difficult. I get a letter saying 'yep, all good' and we're left alone for a whole year. 

 

That sounds tolerable, but wouldn't make any difference to not-schoolers because they don't register and so won't be subject to the laws. It's kind of as though those of us who register have to take a few for the team, but for what? So the government can look like they are cracking down on people they are not cracking down on?

 

The hoops in QLD for pulling kids out of school are a bit nasty though and we'd like to avoid them.

 

There's a link here: http://www.vrqa.vic.gov.au/news/Pages/regulations.aspx

 

 

[MaryMak07]

I was a teacher, and I witnessed, first hand, parents pulling their kids out bc they got tired of dealing with their kids' problems at school. It wasn't an intentional choice but a "I'll just take them out then" bc they were mad at the school. These were the same parents who struggled to support their children when they were at school. If they couldn't/didn't come in for conferences, sign the planner, check homework, return field trip permission slips etc I can't imagine them taking on the responsibility of teaching their kids and doing it well.

 

I live in VA and like our laws too. I think to protect kids from educational neglect it's worth it. (I'm not for crazy high regulations)

[6packofun]

As to the OP, yes.  I use a couple things on that Easy Peasy (I know, not a WTM fave, LOL) website and I'm on their FB group.  DAILY there are parents on there asking the simplest questions that they could easily Google and the question usually follows "I just pulled my child out of school..."  Seriously.  And most of these people aren't pulling for any emergency reason yet they want some program online, which sounds like the first thing they've ever heard of when it comes to homeschooling, to do all the work without needing to give any time or effort.  Lots of "I work full-time and just pulled my child out of high school...how do I graduate them?"  I could scream.  So little forethought and you KNOW they are going to be overwhelmed in a matter of 2 hours of trying to homeschool.

[kewb]

I've noticed a similar trend this past couple of years in my yahoo groups and facebook groups. Some days I think it is concerning and at the same time I am glad the option is there for people who need it.

 

I think back to when I started and all the cringe worthy questions I asked. The online component is the latest and greatest so that is what the questions are about.

[KungFuPanda]

I get that regulations and paperwork are annoying and time consuming, but even strict strict regulations are less work than homeschooling. It's WORK. There's no getting around it.

[maize]

We own a bakery. My dh does all the baking even though he used to be a hotshot CS engineer. The reason he must do all the baking is that NO ONE can use any scale to correctly measure anything. To say I am disappointed in the current system that let that happen would be an understatement. The unfortunate reality is that a hs diploma does not mean that someone knows any math. At. All.

This is depressing.

[CadenceSophia]

I don't think we can regulate out of a problem like this on any front. I think we need to incentivize.

 

I know many people are not favorable on homeschool-charter schools but I really love what happens in Alaska. We have no regulations. No requirement to register, no days, testing, reporting, etc. Nothing. BUT we are offered 2k/kid/year to spend on educational needs when we align with a charter of our choosing and follow their reporting requirements. There are MANY choices and new ones open all the time. It is a.) less expensive for the state (and my property taxes) to have fund a homeschooled kid over pay for a kid in ps. b.) It is enough money to incentivize basically anyone without extremely strong convictions to find a school to register with. Yes, abusive neglectful people can still abuse and neglect their kids, always going to be a possibility. BUT uninformed and trend following hs'ers  are pretty well guaranteed to sign up and have some oversite and a little help (if they want it ). We also have a very flexible education system where parents can choose programs with various levels of ps involvement. You can choose anything from almost no oversite, to a charter with 2-3 day a week classes and "required teacher tutor hours", to actual public school programs that use crazy block scheduling to allow multi-week intensives (don't know a lot about this but I am always amazed at my friend's childrens schedules), to a Montessori school, a Waldorf school, a super old fashioned sort of 3R's school. It totally eliminates (or you could say supports) people who are homeschooling just to get that custom private school education that they couldn't afford, but who don't actually want to put the work in to homeschool. 

 

Sorry if that doesn't make sense somewhere.. getting sleepy. 

[sewingmama]

Rosie, I love ya, but I would go underground before I submitted to that.

Ed psychs, on the department's payroll? Is it mandatory for schooled kids?

I am really so sorry for the crap you're being dragged through.

 

I think educational neglect should be dealt with like other neglect and abuse. Reported and investigated. Not preemptively screened - unless they can provide evidence that it is more widespread in this population.

 

In classical education language - it's about putting things in their right order. A bureaucrat does not belong in between parent and child. Their wanting what's best for my child doesn't override my wanting what's best for my own child, and unless there is legally defined abuse/neglect happening, then they can butt out.

 

All of these sad stories are awful. But how do these laws help? Are there actually any evidence based laws out there? Mostly they're based on stereotypes. That's what I object to, in a nutshell.

I agree.. I would go underground rather then submit to that because there is no adjustments for children with special needs or learning differences.

 

We have a somewhat similar set up in SA..you register and once a year someone from the education department comes to visit and see what you are doing. This someone is from the " homeschooling" department with favourable attitudes towards homeschooling ( the head of the department used to homeschool her own children) and they are also ex teachers who understand educational standards so know where students "should be".

 

My DD is a grade or two behind as she has some learning issues but I've never had a problem being approved to homeschool. They want to see progress from each child but progress that is personal and at their level. They want to see you have a plan in place and not just waking up every morning and winging it. They want to see your kid is doing well according to their own abilities...not standard abilities. They dont need to pass tests to show evidence of learning. Even the unschoolers get by as long as they show evidence of progress and the parent has some clue what they are doing.

 

Basing this all on one test by an educational psychologist invested in regualr schooling is the same as what the schools do...by not taking into account individual needs and abilities of each child.

 

However, yes it is easier to "prove" your educating status with a piece of paper. If someone questions my kids abilities I just wave my "permission slip" in their face and say..the education department said they were doing fine and go on my merry way. So there are advantages to having those papers.

 

Bummer..I was planning to move to Vic because your laws sound enticing...I think I'll stay where I am.

[LMD]

I agree.. I would go underground rather then submit to that because there is no adjustments for children with special needs or learning differences.

 

We have a somewhat similar set up in SA..you register and once a year someone from the education department comes to visit and see what you are doing. This someone is from the " homeschooling" department with favourable attitudes towards homeschooling ( the head of the department used to homeschool her own children) and they are also ex teachers who understand educational standards so know where students "should be".

 

My DD is a grade or two behind as she has some learning issues but I've never had a problem being approved to homeschool. They want to see progress from each child but progress that is personal and at their level. They want to see you have a plan in place and not just waking up every morning and winging it. They want to see your kid is doing well according to their own abilities...not standard abilities. They dont need to pass tests to show evidence of learning. Even the unschoolers get by as long as they show evidence of progress and the parent has some clue what they are doing.

 

Basing this all on one test by an educational psychologist invested in regualr schooling is the same as what the schools do...by not taking into account individual needs and abilities of each child.

 

However, yes it is easier to "prove" your educating status with a piece of paper. If someone questions my kids abilities I just wave my "permission slip" in their face and say..the education department said they were doing fine and go on my merry way. So there are advantages to having those papers.

 

Bummer..I was planning to move to Vic because your laws sound enticing...I think I'll stay where I am.

People are in fight mode here lol! If you're in Aus - especially vic - and want to make a submission, every one helps (the link might be funny, just copy/paste it and it should work)

 

http://www.education.vic.gov.au/about/department/legislation/Pages/act2006regsreview.aspx

[LMD]

Sorry for the derail!

[Rosie_0801]

I agree.. I would go underground rather then submit to that because there is no adjustments for children with special needs or learning differences.

 

 

Yes there is. If the results of the English and maths testing match the results of the IQ tests that have diagnosed learning difficulties or other special needs, there's no grounds for anyone to carry on providing some progress is being made. Nor is it only one test. Also, up to two years behind is considered acceptable. So acceptable, that you have to be more than two years behind to qualify for a teachers aide, which, of course, you lose if you improve too much.  :sneaky2:

 

But yeah, I suggest you stay put until we all find out how our laws are going to turn out.  :angry: Hopefully we can  :smash:  them.

[Rosie_0801]

Sorry for the derail!

 

I'm not!  âœŠ

 

(That's my solidarity emoticon, since strangely enough there's no patriot emoticon here with an Aussie flag. What an oversight...)

[LMD]

I'm not! ✊

 

(That's my solidarity emoticon, since strangely enough there's no patriot emoticon here with an Aussie flag. What an oversight...)

😆 *LIKE*

[Rosie_0801]

😆 *LIKE*

 

As you said, Babe, I'm in fighting mode. âœŠâœŠâœŠâœŠâœŠ

 

*ROAR*

 

:lol:

 

 

(It's getting to me. I never call people Babe. I'll try and be sorry about that tomorrow. But now, ✊!!)

[LMD]

As you said, Babe, I'm in fighting mode. ✊✊✊✊✊

 

*ROAR*

 

:lol:

 

 

(It's getting to me. I never call people Babe. I'll try and be sorry about that tomorrow. But now, ✊!!)

Never be sorry! Except for the fact that I can't like your posts!

[EmseB]

As to the OP, yes.  I use a couple things on that Easy Peasy (I know, not a WTM fave, LOL) website and I'm on their FB group.  DAILY there are parents on there asking the simplest questions that they could easily Google and the question usually follows "I just pulled my child out of school..."  Seriously.  And most of these people aren't pulling for any emergency reason yet they want some program online, which sounds like the first thing they've ever heard of when it comes to homeschooling, to do all the work without needing to give any time or effort.  Lots of "I work full-time and just pulled my child out of high school...how do I graduate them?"  I could scream.  So little forethought and you KNOW they are going to be overwhelmed in a matter of 2 hours of trying to homeschool.

 

Except I think many people that do this feel as though they are between a rock and a hard place.  They are in crisis and need to do something immediately and then need help.  It doesn't get to pulling your child out of school overnight with no plan just like that.  At least, not from what I've seen.  It's not done on a whim, but rather after an exhaustion of other options.

 

I feel like the best thing to do in that situation is point them to some resources.  Yes, they are going to be overwhelmed, especially if they are already feeling so stuck they feel like their only option is to pull their kid out of school with no real plan in place.

[poppy]

I get short term emergency measures. I get people being overwhelmed and ignorant.   Becoming a homeschooler is a learning process.

 

What I don't get is the replies I see to questions like this:

 

"I work full time, plus go to night school, I am a single parent.   I wish I could homeschool but can't spedn any money or change my schedule. What should I do for my kindergartener?"

And that person will get tons and tons of encouragement to GO FOR IT.

 

I get that there is a subset of homeschoolers who think schools are evil and soul-wrecking and just make little cogs to fill jobs and its' toxic yadda yadda yadda.

I get that it *can* be made to work if the parent is in a real bind.

Is that kid really better off, though?  Really? 

 

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't homeschool- single parent / working / whatever- at all. I'm just saying lets be honest with people who looking into it.   There are cons as well as pros. 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by poppy

[kiana]

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't homeschool- single parent / working / whatever- at all. I'm just saying lets be honest with people who looking into it.   There are cons as well as pros. 

 

Or, when it's clearly not working -- when someone posts and it's obvious that the homeschooling parent is completely overwhelmed and the family is suffering -- usually not just educationally, either -- sometimes it's necessary to encourage people to consider other options (which don't necessarily have to be full-time PS, either). 

[HS Mom in NC]

I haven't read through the thread yet, but will a later today. 

Online schoolers are a mix.  For some people being at home but having an online teachers works.  My cousin did this with his daughter and she thrived.  She was a chronically ill in her tween and early teen years but a highly motivated student, both parents worked different shifts and she's now at a selective university at 17. 

I have a church member friend who works for the largest online school here in AZ. ETA: This is a high school only online program, not a K12.  She homeschooled her own kids until they went to magnet high schools for STEM stuff, so she's lived in both worlds with great experiences with both. When my academically advanced niece got pregnant her last semester  of high school, she switched to that online school.  I talked to the church member about it when niece was having follow through problems outside the structure of a brick and mortar school. She got her diploma a semester later than if she had not become pregnant and graduated on time.  So she got it together a little later.

Church member said there are basically 3 categories of online students:

1. academically advanced, motivated students who know what they want to do for college/skilled labor training and go online school to finish early so they can start their adult level education ASAP
2. academically/behaviorally  struggling students who do not function well in a classroom environment ETA: Sometimes the academic or behavioral issues are in the school the child left, not coming from the child.
3. unusual circumstances like my niece and my cousin's daughter who had something atypical come up (illness, pregnancy, significant developmental delays) and online school helps them get back on track eventually

When a kid is in the second or third category, parental behaviors are absolutely critical.  When parents understand they have an active roll to play making sure children with a problem are getting the kind of support they need on a regular basis, online schooling can work well for them. ETA: The amount of type of parental support will vary depending on each individual child's needs.  Parents who aren't providing the kind of support a kid needs are not going to see a good outcome. Church member says, based on her personal observations over the last 10 years or so at her job, she would say if a kid isn't doing well within a year of online schooling, odds are very low they will graduate on time, and probably not at all.  She has kids in 16th grade, which is 4 years after their senior year, who still aren't done yet.

We have to make it clear to parents choosing online schooling that most of the time kids still need some regular parental involvement and engagement.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[rjand6more]

I had a mom ask me to help her create a transcript /issue a diploma for her daughter who had quit school and ran off 2 years before.

 

She had had a lot of life experience.  How can we use that to make up classes to put on her transcript? She had 2 years of high school(ps).  Now she wanted to make a transcript because her daughter could not get a decent job. She didn't think she could pass the GED.   And since I graduated one kid, surely I could help her????

 

I have always told my kids that hs diplomas are respected.  And ds's college(state school) gladly accepted it.  But, I'm not sure if this will always be the case.  I am in favor of some sort of high school exit exam.  I do NOT want my kids to be lumped into the high school drop out groups either.

[ScoutTN]

 

We should be agitating for evidence based regulations. It will be a problem for them, because they don't have evidence of what works in a homeschool population. So I guess they will have to go out and find it.

 

 

I like this, but don't think it could really happen. It is asking the educational establishment and government to recognize and really understand a fundamentally different paradigm of education. It would require thoughtful, intelligent people with a real understanding of homeschooling to make evaluations based on a flexible and carefully crafted definition of what good education is.  Nope, not happening. They will expect conformity to their paradigm, to a standardized level of "achievement". "Evidence based regulations" will be testing. 

 

 

 

OP, I do recognize the problem, though I don't think regulation will necessarily fix it. It may deter some people  who really should not be homeschooling from trying, though, and that is a good thing. But at what cost to everyone else's freedom? How to you keep regulation moderate and not let it become a monster that destroys homeschooling? 

 

 VA people, what are your regs?

Edited January 17, 2017 by ScoutTN

[HS Mom in NC]

See clarifications in my post #156.  They're bolded.

[Anne in CA]

This is depressing.

It was a huge, huge shock. I can measure, years of home schooling elementary really solidified all my fractions and decimals. For most grown adults those things are way off the radar.

[momacacia]

I'm more likely to see people do the online school thing for a year or two and then really not aant to deal with their kids and/or want to so something else with their lives, so back they go to ps. My SIL is in process with this now.