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Does anyone else see this? Do you think it is cause for concern?


Bambam
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I'm in an easy to homeschool state. 

 

On a couple of statewide lists, I'm seeing a large influx of folks who have just pulled their kids out of public school and now want to homeschool them. But, some plan to continue to work outside the home and just stick the children in front of some inexpensive online program. Or they will stay home with them, but again, they just want recommendations for some inexpensive online program.  Not books or curriculum - they just want online or computer based programs. 

 

And then I see requests for help from parents who has a 13 yo who still can't read or do multiplication. 

 

And requests from parents of 16 yo who haven't done any serious schooling, and hey, look, graduation is coming, what can I do to catch my child up so they can graduate. 

 

I've been homeschooling for 14 years now. When I started, we had yahoogroups and bulletin boards for communication. Now we have forums, Big Tent, FB, and more for communication.

 

So, is this influx that I see - is that cause for concern - people who really haven't researched homeschooling or are dedicated to it switching to homeschooling? Some have legitimate reasons (school is failing their child, bullying, etc), but others just seem to be pulling their children because they are upset with the school (not treating little Johnny right, too much work, etc).  Or has it always been there and we are only seeing it how because there is more communication? 

 

Will all these people approach the education of their children like it is a job/commitment to do the best by them? 

 

I'm afraid not everyone will step up and do a good job educating their children. And that makes me sad for the kids because they deserve better. And if they stick these children into public school, it is going to give homeschooling a bad rap. 

 
And it makes me sad for the future of homeschooling. Because I've seen a variety of homeschoolers - some are dedicated and do a good job, some are doing a decent job, some seem to be running some sort of social experiment, and some aren't doing much at all. And although I think we should have the freedom to educate our children as we see fit, I'm wonder about the practical hard reality of that. 

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I have thought this for the past several years and yes, I think it is an overal negative for the future of homeschooling. When I was first homeschooling, the high percentage of parents really wanted to do well by their children. They were giving up a lot in order to homeschool and homeschool wasn't mainstream and there weren't many on-line resources at all, beyond the HSLDA and a couple of groups like Vegsource or Yahoo Groups. But now there are so many ways to hs, including completely hands-off learn-at-home programs.

 

This is one reason why I have become in favor of some homeschool regulations, although I wasn't in the beginning. I have seen children in recent years who have been greatly dis-served by homeschooling (or the form of homeschooling the parent is using).

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I do think it's problematic and I expect to see some regulations popping up in some low-regulation states.

 

Personally, I've seen articulate and intelligent students who come into my university (admitted under the high school GPA over a certain point admissions process, which means no specific test score is required) ludicrously underprepared for the lowest level remedial math class we offer. Before someone jumps in to say "well PS isn't doing a great job either", I have seen many underprepared students from local public schools, but never ones who had never been exposed to the concept of fractions (I borrowed a set of the elementary ed fractions circles for one person who did visit office hours a fair amount before giving up), variables, or anything beyond basic multiplication or division with a calculator. They try hard, but tend to score in the single digits for the first few exams before giving up. They need to be at a CC taking a pre-algebra or an arithmetic class, but the CC's around here are phasing those out. 

 

Before I saw this, I wouldn't have believed it and was pretty opposed to any kind of testing, evaluation, or regulations. After seeing this in multiple students, I don't feel the same way anymore. 

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Yes, it's been going on for awhile, sadly. Some 15 years ago when they started state-wide testing, there was a big influx of that type of request on my homeschool egroups. Then another when Common Core was started and more when it was implemented.

 

When I was teaching local homeschool classes, I taught some of the neglected homeschool kids. It was upsetting. Mom and dad worked full-time and left the kid alone all day or with a grandma who didn't supervise. If they didn't get things done or had poor standardized test results, they refilled under the provision where there is no county oversight or they'd become an unregistered homeschooler. One that I taught was functionally illiterate at 13, and others were close.

 

I also have run into kids 13-18 who were working full-time in the family business while being supposedly homeschooled. They were also behind.

 

And the same at the local community college. They'd get them a driver's license and graduate them at 16. The community college standards are of course pretty low, and they generally had to start in remedial math and/or English. The reality of students who start in the remedial classes is that VERY few of them get beyond that.

 

It's sad all-around. I don't like heavy regulation, but the reality is that it's easy for homeschoolers to neglect their children.

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I do think it's problematic and I expect to see some regulations popping up in some low-regulation states.

 

Personally, I've seen articulate and intelligent students who come into my university (admitted under the high school GPA over a certain point admissions process, which means no specific test score is required) ludicrously underprepared for the lowest level remedial math class we offer. Before someone jumps in to say "well PS isn't doing a great job either", I have seen many underprepared students from local public schools, but never ones who had never been exposed to the concept of fractions (I borrowed a set of the elementary ed fractions circles for one person who did visit office hours a fair amount before giving up), variables, or anything beyond basic multiplication or division with a calculator. They try hard, but tend to score in the single digits for the first few exams before giving up. They need to be at a CC taking a pre-algebra or an arithmetic class, but the CC's around here are phasing those out. 

 

Before I saw this, I wouldn't have believed it and was pretty opposed to any kind of testing, evaluation, or regulations. After seeing this in multiple students, I don't feel the same way anymore. 

 

I would think this would be an issue for the university to address, not a change needed to homeschool law. Obviously, their process has allowed many unprepared students to enter the university. The policy is not only hurting the unprepared students, but also those expecting classes to be taught at a specific university level. Universities should not be admitting such students.

 

 

 

Around here, we have a very large unschooling population. They seem to get along fine. They have very different ideas on the purposes and methods needed for education. Very few of the kids go straight to university. Actually, I don't personally know any that have. However, they always seem to be a very creative, laid-back, friendly group of kids. Many start working early, either using their creative talents or working for family and friends. About half jump straight to the workforce and the other half go to community college. I don't really see any of them struggling any more than university students. They just go a different path. It isn't what I want for my kids, but no, it is not something that worries me.

 

I definitely do not think homeschoolers should be required to meet some minimum level of dedication in order to school at home. Or provide a "legitimate reason" for not having their children in school. It is merely a personal choice, allowed by law.

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I see that it's such a viable alternative now, it's just an option on the plate that seems like an easy choice, "oh we can just homeschool".

 

And the reality doesn't really dawn on people for a bit. And we also have so many vocal fans of laid back approaches that everyone gets reassured it'll all work out, don't worry, "they're learning all the time". And it's easy to end up among peers that all take this same laid back approach and it can feel just fine.

 

And others also have plans and despite their best efforts, they just can't make it all happen. But stopping homeschooling is also very hard to do - I say that as someone that just made that switch. It was and is hard to let go of my social community. But I also had to finally say that my best efforts were not enough. If is wasn't so hard to let go, I would have transitioned my kids even earlier.

 

And for my children's ps teacher, they probably think less of homeschooling now because they have a student that is so behind. And I will admit that I didn't realize just how much they were doing in the ps (for my older child at least), it is way above what I think more than half of my homeschooling peers are doing. Now, I don't really agree that kids need to be doing everything the school is doing, but when my kids transitioned it, it made that gap feel even wider.

 

So I see a lot of influx too. I see a lot where someone posts they just pulled their child out of school and is asking what they need to know to homeschool. So now it seems like something so simple to do that many don't invest the time to properly research what it takes.

 

Should it concern the homeschool community - maybe.

 

Edited bad autocorrect errors and add last sentence.

Edited by xixstar
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I am part of a charter school that has enrichment classes for homeschoolers one day a week.  They are branching out into high school university model type schooling.  Talking to the director, she sees children whose parents feel like their child should be ready for dual enrollment their senior year woefully underprepared.  She has to explain to these parents that their child would at best place into remedial college classes.  If that.  The parents seemed shocked that their child couldn't jump into college with Algebra 1 and basic writing skills despite attending college themselves.  They added math fact practice into the enrichment classes because the students that were taking pre-algebra and algebra didn't know their basic math facts with automatic recall.  My 6th grade son said he was bored in class.  The director mentioned that maybe he was ahead of everyone else in the classroom and that was why he was bored.  I don't consider my ds exceptionally bright, but pretty average.  Come to find out, he was bored because he is ahead of most of the kids.  He made a comment about how he gets bored during their book discussion time because most of the kids in the class couldn't read the big words.  We're talking a book that is written for a 6th grade level.  

 

I came from a small town and moved to this larger town homeschooling all the way.  In the small town, we had the smaller group of homeschoolers all who take their homeschooling job very seriously.  Their children were all doing at least grade level if they didn't have a learning issue. We didn't big co-ops that would teach classes for the families other than a gym class.  In this more metro area, there are all sorts of co-ops and enrichment programs that there are people who send their children to various co-ops during the week and consider that good enough.  What I considered to be educating my children well (much to what others on these forums would consider to be acceptable) in my new metro area is apparently exceptional.  And the thing is, most don't know they're not doing a decent job until their children hit later high school and are not at all prepared for college level work.

Edited by bethben
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 Because I've seen a variety of homeschoolers - some are dedicated and do a good job, some are doing a decent job, some seem to be running some sort of social experiment, and some aren't doing much at all.

 

You could take the "home" out of homeschoolers and the above statement would be just as true.

 

Not everyone is going to get a good, or even adequate, education.  That will never change regardless of what system is put in place.  It's another argument for freedom, IMO.

 

 

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I would think this would be an issue for the university to address, not a change needed to homeschool law. Obviously, their process has allowed many unprepared students to enter the university. The policy is not only hurting the unprepared students, but also those expecting classes to be taught at a specific university level. Universities should not be admitting such students.

 

My issue is that these students are underprepared not just for university, but for CC. Students who are technically high school graduates and place into arithmetic or pre-algebra at a CC have an incredibly low rate of success both at continuing to the next year and at graduating in general, and a big reason is because they are so far behind that they are looking at semesters of remediation before proceeding to collegiate classes and then running out of financial aid eligibility before graduation. This is a subject of nationwide discussion among university educators. 

 

Furthermore, CC remedial classes used to be more basic, but now tend to assume that a student has seen algebra and geometry, but just not mastered it. They aren't well suited for an initial exposure as they move much too rapidly for that. Some bright students can make the leap, but most can't. 

 

ETA: Btw, the only real modification that would stop this would be refusing to accept their fabricated transcripts at face value. And yes, they are fabricated. They are getting admitted because they have transcripts that say that they passed two years of algebra and one of geometry with certain grades, but multiple students have told me in confidentiality that they never studied those and their parent just downloaded a transcript. So we could require extra documentation from homeschool students that isn't required from general admission students, but that tends to raise hackles as well and doesn't address the larger issue with the spreading myth of "anything is better than PS"

Edited by kiana
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I've only been hs 12 years.  But, boy, this IS what weighs on my heart.  When I began, it was a community of parents who spent every penny they could afford on curriculum.  They shared the books and the wisdom.  Everyone had a reason they hs'd.  Most were not disgruntled(our PSs are pretty ok around here.)  HS was a lifestyle for those who chose it.

 

Today it seems so easy to hs. There are soooo many options(and I am grateful for that!)  But, I think complete hands off homeschooling is creating a whole new group of under educated young people!  My heart breaks for these kids who are never challenged.

 

I live in a very low requirement state.  And when I began, I supported a parent's right to educate their child, but now I do wish for regulations.  If I hear, "Well, the worst homeschool day is better than the best ps day!" one more time,  I will scream.  All our state requires is attendance and an equivalent education to ps.  I know parents who can't be bothered to check a box that they had school that day.  They don't even count the days.  THE ONLY THING WE ARE ASKED TO DO.  Because, "everyday is a school day!<grrr>

 

I worry very much that all of these "hobby homeschoolers"  will make our kids' lives harder as they get older.  

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You could take the "home" out of homeschoolers and the above statement would be just as true.

 

Not everyone is going to get a good, or even adequate, education.  That will never change regardless of what system is put in place.  It's another argument for freedom, IMO.

 

 

 

I think the community does have a role in caring for kids, which means making sure they have access to some kind of adequate education.  Parents not wanting to give that to them isn't a reason to allow it, any more than parents who want to give only bread and water should be allowed.

 

I also believe in social security though, and I see these as connected.  If your parents can say - you don't need to be educated - then people will understandably tend to think the parents should support the results of that.

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I wonder if you're in my state.

 

Yes, these people are going to sink homeschooling as we know it in low-reg states. The state legislatures know about them. They're also aware of the "pushout" students whose families have been forced or tricked into homeschooling by their public schools (IN and TX), and both groups have become the "face of homeschooling" to many in power, from school board to judicial system, in our states.

 

Not good.

 

Where I differ from the state hs'ing orgs in response to this? I think we'll save homeschooling by conceding some points of regulation. Michael Farris of HSLDA* once said that VA has the best hs'ing laws, because they have some protection against accusation of educational neglect. Hs'ers can follow the regulations, which are not onerous, and then have their test results and whatnot as evidence. Hs'ers in states with low (or practically zero) regulation do not have that layer of protection.

 

*I'm neither a member of HSLDA nor a fan of Michael Farris.

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I think we're about to see a bunch of entrepreneurs swoop in and create a new model. Our homeschool group is quickly filling with parents who want a hands off option, but can't afford private school. Basically they don't want to homeschool, but it's the lesser of two evils with zero tolerance, testing crazed, administrative heavy PS system- it has them running away. I think it's a growing pain phase, but they are probably short lived for the world of homeschoolers. Somebody, somewhere is going to take advantage of this- particularly if states become more voucher friendly.

 

They're already trying in CA- the VCs and tech gurus have all sorts of experimental academies and schools there. I personally think it's going to spread. It may take 20 years, but I see it more as a school revolution than a homeschool specific problem. Yes, it reflects us as homeschoolers when there are publicized failures, but I imagine the public schools are just as worried about the kids being withdrawn left and right. I think we're just seeing the ripples of something that's been coming for a while. I think parents seeing they have a choice is a good thing, to a degree, as they will likely (hopefully) put up with less crap from their local government and schools in the future. People want better- and they're starting to make that known.

 

At least in TX, I'm not too worried about it affecting the regulations. Our state homeschooling coalition is very aggressive and very powerful. I think other states that lean more towards government control already, are the ones that have more to worry about. Maybe if we had a huge shift in the composition of our state government I would be more concerned, but right now I don't think it's on the agenda. I'm one who isn't really sure how about feel about regulations myself, I'm still sorting through that myself.

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That's an interesting point, texasmama.  I think you are right that a big issue is that problems in schools are a big factor - and admin is one we've seen here.  OUr ps teachers have been on work to rule here for months largely because of admin related issues and how they affect quality of instruction.  And I know a number of parents that have withdrawn or considered withdrawing kids.

 

But few people here can afford private education, at $10,000 a year per child - its as much as university.

 

I don't think an online education can compete, quality wise, with good instruction at home or in a b&m school, so I don't like the idea of it becoming very widespread.  But I imagine people will open those kinds of services if there is demand. 

 

Maybe the public system, if it starts to lose kids, or the good teachers, or has to deal with all the poorly educated adults, will rethink its system.  Though I think a bad system makes it more difficult for those in charge, who themselves are poorly educated, to see what is wrong.

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My heart aches for those children who spend their childhoods and teen years home in front of a computer screen reading passages and answering knowledge/comprehension level questions and call it an education. Yes, I am aware of better quality online experiences, but the most widely used independent study (no need for a parent or teacher) courses are as described above. Not only are these young people ill prepared for their own futures, but they have squandered their short pasts. I am sad for parents who are willing to lie and cheat for their children to move into situations the children cannot handle and for which they are unprepared.  Nobody wins here.

 

So, after 26 years of homeschooling, with 22 of those working in charter schools and in private homeschool settings, yes, I am in favor of oversight. I am also in favor of limiting the number of credits available for graduation through online, self-contained courses, i.e. those that have no human online presence, group meetings, live meeting time, etc. I am also in favor of maintaining homeschool choice across the board and in the proliferation of credit recovery, independent study, alternative setting, hybrid, and whatever new models we can create. 

 

At some point, the expansion of homeschooing will slow as we realize there is more to education than pumping in information, being trendy by making a non-standard choice, and protecting our children from everyone but us. In the meantime, we do need some controls, if only that CCs and universities establish standards for accepting transcripts and conditions for admission for severely under-prepared students.

 

 

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I live in a no regulation state, and while most of the homeschoolers I know are dedicated and enthusiastic, I have certainly met some that seem too focused on their family learning how to organically garden and not focused enough on their pre-teen learning how to read.

 

I would be fine with reasonable regulation, as long as it was actually helping kids get a better education and not just making parents jump through pointless hoops.  I see no value in just requiring parents give notice or keep "attendance".  I think the only regulation that makes sense is evaluation of some type to see if students are proficient in basic skills.

 

Wendy

 

 

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You could take the "home" out of homeschoolers and the above statement would be just as true.

 

Not everyone is going to get a good, or even adequate, education.  That will never change regardless of what system is put in place.  It's another argument for freedom, IMO.

 

Some public schooled kids don't get an education so homeschoolers should be allowed to do a crappy job? Yeah, I've never found that argument particularly compelling.

 

Not to mention that the most uneducated homeschoolers I've met irl were far below the most uneducated public schooled kid I've come across. The kids in even the worst public schools are going to learn SOMETHING. They might not be at grade level, and they might not have a comprehensive education, but they've done more than spend their entire lives watching Minecraft videos on Youtube. Not so for some homeschooled kids. That's not freedom. It's neglect.

 

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. So we could require extra documentation from homeschool students that isn't required from general admission students, but that tends to raise hackles as well and doesn't address the larger issue with the spreading myth of "anything is better than PS"

 

Kids coming from public schools (and I think I can safely assume some private schools as well) have the same issue, though. 

 

I have a friend on the local school board where kids are now required to pass algebra to graduate.  Well, guess what, for a certain tier of students,  it ain't algebra.  It's what we used to call middle school math, and some business math labeled algebra. 

 

An entry exam for everyone at the local CC would solve this problem (from the CC's POV, not the larger problem of grade/course inflation).

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Where I differ from the state hs'ing orgs in response to this? I think we'll save homeschooling by conceding some points of regulation. Michael Farris of HSLDA* once said that VA has the best hs'ing laws, because they have some protection against accusation of educational neglect. Hs'ers can follow the regulations, which are not onerous, and then have their test results and whatnot as evidence. Hs'ers in states with low (or practically zero) regulation do not have that layer of protection.

 

*I'm neither a member of HSLDA nor a fan of Michael Farris.

 

Yes and no. No one is stopping Texans from having their kids take standardized tests. Many homeschool groups organize them and, once you are at least 12, you can sit the SAT or ACT. If a parent chooses not to test, they are making a conscious decision to have no backup for their mommy grades. It's a real problem. I'm sure that testing regs would not pass the TX Lege, at least for now.

 

I know for a fact that the local high school coop classes are substantially worse than the college prep classes at the local public high school. OTOH, they are on level for the local Christian school. BUT, I can find much better classes for Trinqueta online than she would have in the highest track at our local public school. So, we end up with some people choosing homeschooling because they can access more rigorous coursework while we have many people choosing it so their children aren't exposed to the hoi polloi but then choosing curricula that is substantially deficient compared to the local public school. I don't know how you can solve this as a college admission officer other than by relying on test scores or dual enrollment credits earned because those are standardized measures based on common curriculum across the state.

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Some public schooled kids don't get an education so homeschoolers should be allowed to do a crappy job?

 

 

It's not about "allowed", it's about reality.  There are always going to be people who get crappy educations.  Putting everyone else through hoops isn't going to change that, ever.

 

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It's not about "allowed", it's about reality.  There are always going to be people who get crappy educations.  Putting everyone else through hoops isn't going to change that, ever.

 

 

So because some people ignore the laws we shouldn't bother having them in the first place? Sorry, but I can't get on board with that.

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Kids coming from public schools (and I think I can safely assume some private schools as well) have the same issue, though. 

 

I have a friend on the local school board where kids are now required to pass algebra to graduate.  Well, guess what, for a certain tier of students,  it ain't algebra.  It's what we used to call middle school math, and some business math labeled algebra. 

 

An entry exam for everyone at the local CC would solve this problem (from the CC's POV, not the larger problem of grade/course inflation).

 

1) It really is not the same issue. I have never seen this depth of complete non-understanding in a non-disabled student who went to a PS recently. If it were all the same family I'd almost believe an occult learning disability but it's in more than one family. You can say whatever you want about the low standards in the PS but the low end on the homeschooled students is far below that.

 

2) An exam would solve the problem at the colleges but it's not going to solve the problem of kids who are supposedly high school graduates who aren't even prepared for remedial CC. Where do they go? Private tutors? Those cost money and someone who can't succeed in remedial classes probably isn't making the kind of money to afford them. GED classes? But they have a diploma. Self-education? Sure, but only practically attained by the extremely ambitious. 

Edited by kiana
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Don't get me wrong -- the high flyers are doing brilliantly. I sure wouldn't want to see obnoxious regulations like some of the high-reg states because I think that puts an undue and unnecessary burden on home educators and does damn-all to actually improve the quality. 

 

And there isn't an easy answer just like there isn't an easy answer for school reform. It would be nice indeed if there were.

 

But whether or not people like me think there should be regulations, I predict that they're going to be coming because the people at the state level who collect and collate statistics are noticing, and high-profile cases have been hitting the news in various places. 

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So because some people ignore the laws we shouldn't bother having them in the first place? Sorry, but I can't get on board with that.

 

Because some people ignore laws, we should do a cost-benefit analysis to make sure that the laws will both work, and that it won't do more harm than good.

 

I believe that regulating homeschoolers:

 

1. Will do nothing to solve the problem.  The people who regulations are attempting to catch will just go underground, as they have in the past, and continue to not be caught. 

 

2. A. It will harm the people that it's intended to help.  At least with the lame homeschoolers out in the open, we have the opportunity to speak with them and convince them.  Not that they will all be convinced, but some of them may.

 

B. It will harm those that don't need the help.  The history of government is clear that every regulation is the foot in the door for more regulations.  We will all soon find ourselves living under more and more hoops and burdens, and fighting fights that we thought were won.  Every, single new year will bring a new fight.   Many will choose to live underground with their homeschooling, rather than submit to the regulation, which will hurt their children's ability to live openly and freely, as we do now.  We will be back to the days of "don't go outside, don't go to the store, don't....". 

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Some public schooled kids don't get an education so homeschoolers should be allowed to do a crappy job? Yeah, I've never found that argument particularly compelling.

 

Not to mention that the most uneducated homeschoolers I've met irl were far below the most uneducated public schooled kid I've come across. The kids in even the worst public schools are going to learn SOMETHING. They might not be at grade level, and they might not have a comprehensive education, but they've done more than spend their entire lives watching Minecraft videos on Youtube. Not so for some homeschooled kids. That's not freedom. It's neglect.

 

I agree. Educational neglect is neglect. Back in the "good old days" when many of the country's founders were homeschooled because there was no other option, someone made sure they knew how to read and do math. I just cannot fathom being comfortable with my child sitting in front of a computer all day for an education, or with my child not knowing how to read. I worry a lot that I'm not doing enough to educate my children, even though I'm in actuality doing a lot more than many people and my kids are well above grade level and do very well on standardized testing. Their whole education is on me. I don't want them to ever feel that they are less than others because of decisions I made about their schooling. But homeschooling properly is hard! It's the hardest thing I have ever done. It's not something to casually and half heartedly do. ETA it was obvious three children were talking to me while I tried, over ten minutes, to post this! Edited by MotherGoose
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I think my state is considered moderate regulation, but it's on the low end of moderate.  I live in an affluent area with tons of homeschoolers.  In our area I don't see that kind of homeschooling, although I'm sure it exist.  It's pretty much very academically competitive where I live.  I do think the homeschool kids start out a bit slower with academics, but tend to be on target with PS by 3rd grade and then tend to be "ahead" by middle school age.  It seems like at least 50% of students are DE by 11th grade and these kids are going to at least decent and a lot of the time very good colleges.  

 

I do wonder if just our low moderate regulations have something to do with that.  It's not much, but just enough so you can see that your hitting your targets every couple of years with testing.

 

 

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I do wonder if just our low moderate regulations have something to do with that.  It's not much, but just enough so you can see that your hitting your targets every couple of years with testing.

 

I'd agree, but I'd cautiously speculate that also there's a "local culture" issue. If you're the only one whose kids are 10 and still can't read, you're probably starting to get nervous, but if there are 14 year olds who aren't reading your 10 year old seems perfectly fine by comparison.

 

Kind of like how one of my friends who does nutrition education for low-income families has a lot of people who really don't see a problem with sprite in a baby's bottle because everyone around them does it too. It's considered normal for kids to lose all their baby teeth by kindergarten. 

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I've only been hs 12 years. But, boy, this IS what weighs on my heart. When I began, it was a community of parents who spent every penny they could afford on curriculum. They shared the books and the wisdom. Everyone had a reason they hs'd. Most were not disgruntled(our PSs are pretty ok around here.) HS was a lifestyle for those who chose it.

 

Today it seems so easy to hs. There are soooo many options(and I am grateful for that!) But, I think complete hands off homeschooling is creating a whole new group of under educated young people! My heart breaks for these kids who are never challenged.

 

I live in a very low requirement state. And when I began, I supported a parent's right to educate their child, but now I do wish for regulations. If I hear, "Well, the worst homeschool day is better than the best ps day!" one more time, I will scream. All our state requires is attendance and an equivalent education to ps. I know parents who can't be bothered to check a box that they had school that day. They don't even count the days. THE ONLY THING WE ARE ASKED TO DO. Because, "everyday is a school day!<grrr>

 

I worry very much that all of these "hobby homeschoolers" will make our kids' lives harder as they get older.

This is my experience, two decades in. Sadly, it makes me feel somewhat thankful that I am on the tail end of our journey, with all but one graduated.

 

Generally speaking, the "quality of product" seems to have declined. The graduates I know are less likely to be college bound. Many are experiencing failure to launch, living at home with parents into their early/mid twenties, floundering at odd jobs, both male and female.

 

The trickle down of this is that our peer groups at our current junior high level are not as iron-sharpening as those my older students enjoyed. It doesn't matter how academic a plan an outsourced class offers if the participants arrive with no preassignments complete and unable to contribute to discussions. It's a poor example to my kid that others can be total slackers but still be allowed to participate. Makes her wonder why she bothers sometimes.

 

 

People seem less concerned about academic achievement (and I'm not talking superlatives, I mean just keeping their kids at age/grade level work). It makes me look like a weirdo sometimes, that I have high (um, normal, justifiable) academic expectations for my child! That I actually often sit at the table with my student as she works! No one seems to realize anymore that a sacrificial lifestyle on the part of the parent really is an integral part of successful parent-directed education. I see lots of moms who want it all: many children, stay at home lifestyle, home educating/sheltering of the children, plus a home-based business, or blog, or other time consuming personal interest pursuits. I'm not saying a well-organized, savvy mom can't successfully do all that, I'm just saying that in my observation, few properly count the time cost involved and the thing that suffers first & most is the quality of education provided to the children.

 

I, too, see lots of requests in local online groups, newer moms looking for completely hands free, computer based curriculum. I truly understand that there are rare circumstances in which this is necessary, however, it shouldn't be the norm, not imo anyway.

Edited by Seasider
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Another wrinkle: some families I know who do the :"dump a child in front of a computer" have their kids enrolled in a charter school K-12 program.

 

Homeschool regulation can't touch that.

 

I've also heard from folks in higher regulation states that parents who don't want to comply just go underground.

 

It's a conundrum I don't know the answer to. I think some moderate regulation may be helpful. I also think well run home study charters can be a good option, providing both resources and accountability.

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On a couple of statewide lists, I'm seeing a large influx of folks who have just pulled their kids out of public school and now want to homeschool them. But, some plan to continue to work outside the home and just stick the children in front of some inexpensive online program. Or they will stay home with them, but again, they just want recommendations for some inexpensive online program.  Not books or curriculum - they just want online or computer based programs. 
 

And then I see requests for help from parents who has a 13 yo who still can't read or do multiplication. 

 

And requests from parents of 16 yo who haven't done any serious schooling, and hey, look, graduation is coming, what can I do to catch my child up so they can graduate. 

 

I've been homeschooling for 14 years now. When I started, we had yahoogroups and bulletin boards for communication. Now we have forums, Big Tent, FB, and more for communication.

 

So, is this influx that I see - is that cause for concern

 

FWIW, just an observation, but it seems to me that the bolded examples are not likely to be part of a recent influx; they'd have been homeschooling for years.  OTOH, those looking for online programs may be new to homeschooling.

Edited by wapiti
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I live in an extremely low regulation state but one with a culture that values education; all the homeschoolers I personally know here are actually educating, of course with varying standards. The ones I have met that I really worried about were in other states (we've moved a few times). So I agree that culture has a big impact.

Edited by maize
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It's a conundrum I don't know the answer to. I think some moderate regulation may be helpful. I also think well run home study charters can be a good option, providing both resources and accountability.

 

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if there were some easy answers?

 

I agree with you on the light regulation. Basically something that's so light that unless you really are doing nothing, it's much easier to just do it. So that the only reason to avoid it is either genuinely doing nothing or some pretty impressive paranoia. It should be free as well (if you're requiring people to test, you shouldn't require people to pay for the test).

 

And whatever way they go with, there should be multiple options to demonstrate basic literacy and numeracy, rather than multiple hoops to jump through. 

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I'm not sure that the influx that is being talked about here is the same population of people that will have poorly performing kids in school or that will go underground rather than comply with regulation.  These aren't people homeschooling on principle or because they want to spend more time with their kids, or even because they want to give a much higher end education. 

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I don't notice any sort of trend.  I have encountered some like this yes.  I wouldn't necessarily assume they are all going to do a bad job or if they use an on-line option it'll be bad.  I do notice that most of them don't last as homeschoolers though.

 

I live in a high reg state (if that matters).

 

 

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Another wrinkle: some families I know who do the :"dump a child in front of a computer" have their kids enrolled in a charter school K-12 program.

 

Homeschool regulation can't touch that.

 

I've also heard from folks in higher regulation states that parents who don't want to comply just go underground.

 

It's a conundrum I don't know the answer to. I think some moderate regulation may be helpful. I also think well run home study charters can be a good option, providing both resources and accountability.

 

I think if the computer program is of a good quality this isn't necessarily the worst thing.  I don't think you can completely take a hands off approach though.

 

They don't have free on-line charters here so it's not something I encounter a lot of people using.  Some of them are as expensive or more expensive than private schools. 

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I view homeschool regulation as less about forcing parents to educate their children, and more about giving kids the chance to get an adequate education if they so desire.

 

I have no interest in any regulation in elementary, but if a student enters the teenage years and cannot read a newspaper or do basic arithmetic, then I think the child deserves an opportunity to learn those skills before they are a legal adult responsible for themselves.

 

I could see requiring students to pass a basic skills test.  I would offer a few testing sessions a year and allow a student to take it as often as necessary (starting whenever they are ready) until they can pass.  If a student could not pass by the age of 13, then I would require a parent to either A) submit documentation as to why the student is unable to pass, B) develop an educational plan (only for reading and math) with an impartial educational consultant and meet with them quarterly to discuss the student's progress for as long as required until the student passes the basic skills test or graduates or C) enroll the student in public school.

 

It would certainly not be a perfect plan, and of course, some students would still fall through the cracks, but it would offer kids a rudimentary educational safety net.

 

Wendy

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I view homeschool regulation as less about forcing parents to educate their children, and more about giving kids the chance to get an adequate education if they so desire.

 

I have no interest in any regulation in elementary, but if a student enters the teenage years and cannot read a newspaper or do basic arithmetic, then I think the child deserves an opportunity to learn those skills before they are a legal adult responsible for themselves.

 

I could see requiring students to pass a basic skills test.  I would offer a few testing sessions a year and allow a student to take it as often as necessary (starting whenever they are ready) until they can pass.  If a student could not pass by the age of 13, then I would require a parent to either A) submit documentation as to why the student is unable to pass, B) develop an educational plan (only for reading and math) with an impartial educational consultant and meet with them quarterly to discuss the student's progress for as long as required until the student passes the basic skills test or graduates or C) enroll the student in public school.

 

It would certainly not be a perfect plan, and of course, some students would still fall through the cracks, but it would offer kids a rudimentary educational safety net.

 

Wendy

 

This is essentially what we have.  We have a testing requirement.  There are more requirements, but this is IMO the most meaningful one.  If a child can't obtain a minimal score this doesn't mean an automatic end to homeschooling, but you have to take some sort of action to remedy the situation or demonstrate you are doing the best you can be doing for the child (because there are obviously some circumstances where a child might not ever obtain the minimal score that aren't within anyone's control). 

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So because some people ignore the laws we shouldn't bother having them in the first place? Sorry, but I can't get on board with that.

I get your point. I feel the same way as Tammy for the simple reason that my own child, my oldest, had a whole year of PS where she did ZERO, and got a social promotion and it was very hard to catch her up at home. I had a tough two years catching up things that she hadn't been exposed to in school because she had been told, by two different teachers, that memorizing math facts was bad. Don't do it. The school she went to taught her a stupid way of doing multiplication and division with her fingers. Using their method she was wrong whenever she had to do it quickly. But it was soooo hard to get her to learn her math facts because "real teachers" said not to do it. ARGGGG. I could go on about how bad her first four years of ps were, but they are well in the past and I think NCLB did address many of the issues she had.

 

But... when schools aren't held to the same accountability as parents it isn't fair. And schools won't be. They aren't now and that isn't going to change. So why add rules for the rule followers that no one but the rule followers are going to follow? Since I am a rule follower this is always soooo annoying to me. My whole life I follow rules other people break. I don't home school anymore, but I always home schooled to standards that far, far exceeded the local public schools. It would have been unfair for me to be "proving" what I was doing when I was already putting eight hours a day into my kid's education. All it would have done was make me more tired. 

 

I do think that people who don't home school correctly are going to make other home school graduates look bad. That is unfortunate. I wish there were learning centers that were more flexible than public school to help with that. Because it is correct that turning up at CC without exposure to fractions is BS. It would be a great thing if there were community based learning centers where parents could have their children tested with no judgement and then get help with what they are missing. Not everyone can learn from a computer program.  My own ds kept going on his test for CC readiness so long that they told him to quit, they needed the terminal. They hadn't seen anyone keep going that long. They let him take any classes he wanted, lol. But that is not every kid. 

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I think if the computer program is of a good quality this isn't necessarily the worst thing. I don't think you can completely take a hands off approach though.

 

They don't have free on-line charters here so it's not something I encounter a lot of people using. Some of them are as expensive or more expensive than private schools.

The problem is not so much the quality of the computer program but the lack of adult oversight and involvement--parent leaves child home alone with instructions to do their schoolwork; child does whatever they want (lots of web surfing and games) while parent is gone. Parent rarely checks up on schoolwork.

 

Theoretically there is a teacher following up, but actual oversight can be minimal.

 

It is a rare kid (they do exist) who has the motivation and discipline to make good progress under these circumstances.

Edited by maize
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But... when schools aren't held to the same accountability as parents it isn't fair. And schools won't be. They aren't now and that isn't going to change.

 

I disagree that school's aren't held to some accountability. There are constant tests. The schools receive a rating from the state. High schools ranks are published in the press and affect property values and the school district's tax base directly. That all these measures could just as easily be predicted by the median income in the catchment area and the percentage of parents with a college education? That says we aren't concentrating on the correct factors in our accountability assessments, not that we're not doing them.

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The problem is not so much the quality of the computer program but the lack of adult oversight and involvement--parent leaves child home alone with instructions to do their schoolwork; child does whatever they want (lots of web surfing and games) while parent is gone. Parent rarely checks up on schoolwork.

 

Theoretically there is a teacher following up, but actual oversight can be minimal.

 

It is a rare kid (they do exist) who has the motivation and discipline to make good progress under these circumstances.

 

This has not been my experience at all.  I homeschool in a somewhat large metro and I know many people who've used online charters either long or short term.  If you ask me, it's more work to jump through the hoops of the online charters we have access to than just homeschool on your own.  They require TONS of hoop jumping and paper work.

 

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This has not been my experience at all.  I homeschool in a somewhat large metro and I know many people who've used online charters either long or short term.  If you ask me, it's more work to jump through the hoops of the online charters we have access to than just homeschool on your own.  They require TONS of hoop jumping and paper work.

 

 

 

Are people talking about online charters?

 

They are vigorous, there is a lot of work that the kids have to turn in, there are daily lessons to be completed, the kids have to complete so many hours of work a day and the kids also sit for MAP testing and they also take the standardized tests.

 

My eldest does online charter and she is taking AP and Honors classes as a Sophomore. I would certainly say it is as difficult if not MORE difficult than any brick and mortar program. 

 

We have never looked at K-12 but she does Connections and she works hard at it, if a kid was doing Connections but not doing there work the school would absolutely step in. My kid has some anxiety issues and she got a bit behind because she was spending too much time trying to make her essays perfect and the school was helping her with counseling and helping her get caught up.

 

 

Edited by Slartibartfast
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A question came to me a little off topic.....

How do families go underground homeschooling? Do they just not register their children? And then could they go on to college? Seems like if the state has no document of a k-12 education colleges wouldn't admit them.

 

Sorry I just never heard of this! I am new to hs and am not around a hs community.

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The problem is not so much the quality of the computer program but the lack of adult oversight and involvement--parent leaves child home alone with instructions to do their schoolwork; child does whatever they want (lots of web surfing and games) while parent is gone. Parent rarely checks up on schoolwork.

 

Theoretically there is a teacher following up, but actual oversight can be minimal.

 

It is a rare kid (they do exist) who has the motivation and discipline to make good progress under these circumstances.

 

Yeah there are a lot of variables.  Some kids might handle this.  This might be a better situation than one's local school.  Honestly, my district is so bad, I'd find the scenario you describe better.  I don't consider it ideal though. The few I encounter who think it's going to magically work this way don't tend to last as homeschoolers. 

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I am not sure what we are talking about here,

 

Which computer programs are people discussing?

 

K12 definitely requires a lot of hoop-jumping from parents in Texas. It's provided through public charters.

 

There are also private pay things like Time4Learning that don't have any oversight.

 

Both of these options have a lot of students. Which one is more common in a particular area probably depends on the local regs and culture.

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When my oldest was a baby I knew a family who homeschooled this way--mom worked full time, kids were home alone (oldest was 16 or so) and did their work online. I'm not sure it is a new thing.

This isn't anything new. I'm dating myself, but I was homeschooled from 1987-2000. Roughly. My mom this year is wrapping up 30 years of homeschooling. I can remember numerous families we knew in those pioneering days of homeschooling whose children did nothing. We knew ten year olds who couldn't read, kids who stayed home playing video games while mom worked instead of doing the schoolwork she'd left(and next fall I will be both a homeschooling and a working mom, so I'm not bashing anyone), kids who's parents were okay with them working several grade levels below where they should be(and there were no learning disabilities or active unschooling going on). One of my friends in high school who was homeschooled was SHOCKED along with her parents when she got a combined total of 800 on her SAT--but no one else in the homeschool community was, because we knew she wasn't actually being schooled at home. I don't know what she was doing, but it wasn't school. Back then there weren't dual enrollment and online classes and co-ops, so if you weren't learning at home, you just weren't learning.

This is not a new problem, I'm afraid. I think though that the Internet and Facebook has allowed us to peer closer into people's lives, and with homeschooling being much more accepted and mainstream than it used to be, homeschoolers don't feel the need to prove themselves through academic rigor. I do still see some of the "anything at home, even nothing, is better than the public school" attitude.

My BFF in high school(still my BFF) and I spent a lot of time complaining because our moms actually made us do work. Now we can look at our homeschooled peers' adult lives and are thankful.

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