Need advice RE: Tantrums

[MaeFlowers]

I need help. I'm pulling my hair out with this dear one.

 

Dd is 4 and she is normally a sweet, funny, outgoing little girl. And then, there is the stubborn, defiant side. When she doesn't like something or want to do something she throws a tantrum. Her tantrums usually involve crying, throwing things, screams from the pit of her stomach, throwing herself on the ground, etc. I'm at my wits end.

 

Example...last night she got her toothpaste all over the counter. I gave her a washcloth and asked her to clean it up. She began to cry. She just stood there and cried and would not clean it up or tell me why she was crying. (She often refuses to talk during these episodes.) I tried calming her and then said, okay, you can stay in the bathroom until this is done. She stayed in there for 20 minutes crying and talking to herself about how she hates the stupid rules. She finally calmed down after talking to my dh on the phone and then cleaned it up but then she threw the washcloth on the floor in defiance. When I then told her to go to bed, she threw herself on the floor and starting crying again. Needless to say, she went to bed 45 minutes past her bedtime. Obviously, being tired doesn't help but this happens at different times during the day. The other day she thought I was wrong about something so she threw what was in her hand across the room and when I sent her to the bedroom for doing so, started screaming bloody murder. She goes from happy to royally pissed off to happy again like nothing ever happened.

 

She also has it out for ds12. She will walk into his room and sock him in the face for no reason. She takes his things and breaks them or hides them. She lies constantly. She only says sorry when she is asked to and it does not come across as sincere.

 

I'm perfectly fine with her being mad or frustrated with things. I tell her so but explain that the bad behavior is not okay. I try to be understanding of her feelings but these tantrums make my life and everyone else's pretty hard. You just never know when she all explode. She may be willing to do something one day but not the next. I'm just so frustrated and she has brought me to tears over this stuff. I just don't why a four year old would be so mad.

 

Also, she only does this at home so I know she can control it. And consequences smonsequences...she cares nothing about the consequences.

 

I just don't know what to do. I feel like I have tried everything. I would really appreciate some advice.

[ashfern]

When my now 14 yo was 4-5 she would throw awful tantrums. I would tell her that she could scream all she wanted only in her room and to punch her pillow if she was mad. I would put her in there and tell her when she was calm that she could come out. You can't reason with them when they are in the middle of a fit.

[maize]

My first thought with the toothpaste story is--don't push a tired child. That is just begging for a meltdown, tired brains don't function particularly rationally.

 

I might have some more thoughts and suggestions later, on my phone right now so it's hard to write anything very long.

[MaeFlowers]

When my now 14 yo was 4-5 she would throw awful tantrums. I would tell her that she could scream all she wanted only in her room and to punch her pillow if she was mad. I would put her in there and tell her when she was calm that she could come out. You can't reason with them when they are in the middle of a fit.

This is how I have usually handled it. For a very short while, the tantrums actually stopped because she didn't want to go to her room. Now, she goes in there and talks about how she hates this or that. She cries and screams and throws her stuff around. The other day she threw stuff at the door after I walked out.

 

I guess I'm trying to get her to stop over reacting and prevent the melt downs in the first place. I do kind of get it. I had quite the temper when I was young. I just don't understand sitting on the toilet for half an hour because she refuses to wipe herself while throwing toilet paper everywhere.

[MaeFlowers]

My first thought with the toothpaste story is--don't push a tired child. That is just begging for a meltdown, tired brains don't function particularly rationally.

 

I might have some more thoughts and suggestions later, on my phone right now so it's hard to write anything very long.

I get it. That's why I said I knew it was late. But I had I waited until morning to ask her to clean it up, there's a 90% chance the same meltdown would have happened.

[Pippen]

Has this been going on for awhile, or is it a recent development?

 

Are you noticing anything else that seems different about her--ie speech differences, a lot of aversions to clothing, foods, etc?

[maize]

I get it. That's why I said I knew it was late. But I had I waited until morning to ask her to clean it up, there's a 90% chance the same meltdown would have happened.

I find this book helpful for working with my emotionally volatile kids:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ZLVCXE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

My primary advice would to 1) don't invalidate their emotions--regardless of whether you think the reaction is disproportionate or unreasonable, their feelings are 100% real to them.

 

2) Don't get in a power struggle with a child behaving irrationally. You will only escalate matters.

[HomeAgain]

My first thought:

-half-years are a**holes.  They just are, at least in my house. It's like 6 weeks of straight PMS before they're on the mend.  4.5, 5.5, 6.5....oh, the last was fun.  He's now 6.75 and rather delightful.  I don't get it.  Part of it is a growth spurt, part is they are just....well...yeah.

 

After that, the only thing you can really do is continue to watch them like a hawk.  Don't expect apologies, but nip behavior as much as possible and stand firm to reasonable expectations.  Eventually they figure out a few things, like you mean what you say.  And gradually they learn how to empathise which makes apologies possible.  My kid got into a fight with the children next door and came home crying mad.  He let it out, threatened to go back and tell them to apologise or he'd hit them (ugh. no), and eventually decided to go apologise for his part in the matter and come straight back home.  Which is pretty freaking awesome for a 6yo.  Had I insisted he did his personality would have definitely made sure it was insincere lip service and he would have continued to be angry.

 

Last, and the hardest, is filling up the love cup.  Give your 4yo some undivided attention first thing in the morning and last thing at night.  Carve time for your 12yo each day where you also teach the 4yo to respect boundaries and not butt in.  Having them see that each one is important to you is helpful in teaching them that they're not in competition with each other.

[Jean in Newcastle]

What she is doing sounds developmentally normal for a four year old.  It isn't fun.  But my experience was that consistency and time were what finally made it better in the end. 

[maize]

Another book recommendation:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GLS4XT4/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

[MercyA]

A change in diet dramatically helped my child. No dyes or food coloring, no artificial flavors, no unidentified, so-called "natural flavors," no preservatives. We basically do something similar to the Feingold Diet, except we don't avoid salicylates. The difference was night and day.

 

We also disciplined for tantrums. It's okay to feel angry/sad/disappointed/upset. It's not okay to scream, complain, throw yourself on the floor, hit people, throw things, or break things. You need to find a consequence she does care about and be consistent in using it.

 

Good luck!

Edited December 31, 2016 by MercyA

[Junie]

Some of my dc are allergic to Red #40.  Behavior would be super sweet, then she would eat Froot Loops or Skittles or whatever and be completely wild.

 

It took a while to figure out what the trigger was.

 

I would absolutely not tolerate how she is treating your son and I would allow him to defend himself.  Punching someone in the face is assault and he should have some say in what her punishment is.

 

You say that she doesn't care what the punishment is.  I have one like that, too.  So I have to keep upping the punishment until she does care.  If the punishment is "no screens" for a day and she says she doesn't care, it immediately becomes two days.  When the punishment became no screens for a month, she suddenly realized that she should be quiet.  And I enforced the punishment.  No screens for a month.

 

If she hits her brother, I would give him her privileges.  Such as, if she loses snack/dessert for a week, he gets his share plus hers.  It might make her think twice if she sees him eating her dessert.

 

It's a hard thing to deal with.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Junie

[maize]

In my household explosive behavior is lessened when we pay attention to diet (frequent protein snacks), sleep, and overstimulation. Anxiety and sensory issues both play a role as well.

[maize]

Re: not talking. Talking becomes physically impossible for me when I am upset; my throat closes up.

[bolt.]

I'm not sure I understand: I get that screaming isn't nice to be around, but why are you identifying her feelings as "over reacting"? Why does it matter so much to "everyone" that she sometimes melts down instead of being able to cope with a situation?

 

Most of these sound easily solved with, "Either you do xyz, or I will do it for you." Followed by doing it for her, followed by crying and comforting. That's a lot less unpleasant than extended screaming and a power struggle. You totally have all the power and all the solutions -- maybe explore your personal reasons for not using your power to solve things?

 

Are you (maybe?) experiencing non-compliance as a trigger, then working out your own emotions as the situation develops? Is non-compliance an issue if particular significance to you? Is 100% compliance one of your parenting goals? Is 95% compliance 5% "I'll do the right thing for you when it's particularly hard." acceptable in 4 year olds? Was compliance a big deal when you were a kid?

 

Maybe try simply letting moments of conflict pass, and teaching better behaviour skills during less fraught times when you can both be patent and receptive. It tends to be simpler and more effective to choise calm moments for kindly teaching than to try to get through to a child who is already not coping.

[AK_Mom4]

First, OP - my apologies. These parenting threads often go bad with hurt feelings because how we parent our kids can be very different. You will probably get advice about allergy testing and discipline and whether she is neurotypical. My approach would be to assume that these tantrums are going to happen (at least until the next development point is reached and she has better expressions).

 

Clear out her bedroom and make it a safe space for tantrums. Nothing breakable, nothing that can hurt someone else when thrown. You may be down to a mattress on the floor and a few stuffed toys for a while, but it's worth it to have someplace to put her. If you are lucky, she will rage for a while, fall asleep and come out in a better frame of mind. On bad days, she may spend most of the day raging in there but at least you know she is safe and can check on her from time to time.

 

Protect your other kids. I'm not sure if there are others than the 12yo, but keep the 4yo hitter near you all the time for the next month so she can't hit/bite/make life miserable for the others. This isn't a punishment for the 4yo - tell her it's just part of being a good mom to protect all the kids including her.

 

Get her outside as much as you can. Disengage emotionally from the tantrums if you can (sounds like you have this one nailed already) and spend time with your other kid(s) without 4yo so you can relax once in a while.

 

Hang in there - this can be a tough time.

[foxbridgeacademy]

First, I don't make children apologize to each other unless they mean it.  I do explain in depth (takes at least 20-30 minutes) why they should be sorry and why they should say they are sorry.  DD behaved this way (tantrums) on and off until she was about 8.  She stopped throwing herself on the floor by 5 ish though.  I told her she can scream, yell, and throw her things in her room but that I don't have to listen to it, she's not going to hold me hostage.  When she's done having a fit we will talk about it (usually end up cuddling on the couch and her falling asleep).  The tantrums stopped when she got to the 8-9 year old range, she is now a very self possessed 13 year old (sometimes too much I think).  She has her issues (mild depression and social anxiety) but she knows how to control them and get a handle on her emotions. 

 

My best advice is never try to reason with a screaming child and make sure before you give a chore or make a request/demand that you are willing to stick to your guns no matter what.  Another thing that can work for some kids is to offer options. "Clean this up tonight while it's easy or if you're too tired then make sure it gets done first thing tomorrow (mention how it will be more difficult), I will check". You'll have to remind them the next morning (she's 4 after all) but she'll feel more in control and more like she's choosing to do it.  This type of thing worked with my son, not my daughter.  Good luck and it might help to keep in mind that tantrum throwing is a normal behavior for some kids and they usually grow out of it (DS was 4, DD 8, so it really can vary).

[gardenmom5]

because she can control this . . .

 

does she care about having an audience?

I send kids who can control themselves to their room until they calm down. (I had one that spent one minute . . . ) I never kept toys in their room - so it wasn't like they could go play with their favorite.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I was going to suggest taking a look at what she's eating too. My youngest was 5-6 when we figured it out. Red 40 and Yellows 5 and 6 are the worst, but caramel coloring can also do it (depending on the formulation, I guess). And for her, it doesn't happen the same day. Its usually 12-36 hours later, so it took us a long time to connect the ingestion with the behavior. She also would be a sunny, sweet, funny kid, until you crossed her in some way--told her no, or required her to do a chore or remediate some situation she caused (like the toothpaste). And of course consequences and reason meant nothing, because you can't reason with someone whose brain isn't working properly!

 

She's still a strong-willed kid, but now it's completely obvious when she's eaten something she shouldn't have. Immediately, one of us (and occasionally even she herself) will start questioning what she ate the day before, and 90% of the time we'll be able to spot the offending food. 

 

This kind of thing isn't always the case, of course, but it could be a good starting point for investigating what's going on. It doesn't have to be dyes either--there are all kinds of additives in just about everything. We thought we were eating a mostly clean, organic diet, but even a twice weekly treat or meal out would put enough in her system to make her volatile for a couple of days. I would also focus on what she does to her brother as a first step. My oldest DD took the brunt of her sister's low-level rage (biting, hitting, pinching, etc.) for years until we figured out what was going on, and it definitely didn't do their relationship any favors :(

 

:grouphug:  to you. It's hard to live this way. I hope you can figure out what's going on and how to resolve it.

 

ETA: I also wouldn't assume that because it doesn't happen out in public doesn't mean she can control it, really. I think it's human nature to be on your best behavior in public and then feel more comfortable releasing your feelings at home. When I went for DD's first preschool parent-teacher meeting, I was dreading what I would hear about how she was acting to the other kids. But no, all they had to say was that she was charming, smart, helpful, etc. They were so surprised when I asked about hitting, biting, and other behaviors, because they saw none of it. Of course, almost as soon as I got her in the car, the frustration would start up, and at home she was her usual struggling self. I have another friend with a "spirited" kid who held herself together beautifully in school every day but who would have a meltdown nearly every day when she got home. She grew out of it, thankfully :D

Edited December 31, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[wendyroo]

My best advice is never try to reason with a screaming child and make sure before you give a chore or make a request/demand that you are willing to stick to your guns no matter what.  Another thing that can work for some kids is to offer options. "Clean this up tonight while it's easy or if you're too tired then make sure it gets done first thing tomorrow (mention how it will be more difficult), I will check".

 

:iagree:

 

Another choice I use with my preschoolers is "Do you want to do it yourself or do you want me to help you?"  In the toothpaste situation I would have asked the child to clean it up, and as soon as the tantrum started I would have moved swiftly to resolve the situation.  "I see you are upset, but the toothpaste needs to be cleaned up.  Do you want to clean it up or do you want me to help you?"  If she continued to scream I would have matter of factly announced that I would help get the job done and I would have wet a rag and proceeded to help her hand over hand wipe up the toothpaste.

 

I think it takes some kids a REALLY long time to accept that some things are non-negotiable even if they don't like them.  My 5.5 year old still throws multiple tantrums a day because he doesn't want to get buckled in the car or I won't let him jump over his baby sister or he desperately wants to still play with a coveted toy even though the timer dinged signaling it is a sibling's turn for the next 10 minutes.  If there is something he needs to do or not do, then I "help" because I want the message to be crystal clear that tantrums do not make required things optional or unacceptable things allowable.  Then I put him somewhere to vent the rest of his feelings (which are often loud and destructive) where he can't hurt anyone or anything.

 

:grouphug:  It is very, very hard.

 

Wendy

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

It is hard navigating these waters.  And you are going to get a lot of different advice.  Please don't take things personally.  Read through and take away what might work for your family.  We are all different, our children are different, our situations are different.  It is hard to get a full picture from just a few words in an on-line post.  Hopefully you will find a lot of gems in the posts you get.

 

1.  With regards to the tantrums, this may just be something you are going to have to ride out until she gets more mature and better able to handle her feelings.  That doesn't mean do nothing.  That means you may need to see this through a bit different lens.  Lots of 4 year olds tantrum.  She is not abnormal in her behavior.  She just feels her emotions very strongly and is still learning how to control her reactions to those emotions.

 

2.  Lets talk some specifics.  Cleaning up after making a mess when a child is tired...  I know that with my two kids if I had just handed them a cloth and insisted they clean up the toothpaste at 4 years old when they are tired and it is the end of the evening they would have felt overwhelmed and unable to cope.  I'd be setting them up for failure.   Certainly if I had made a mess at the end of the day when I was exhausted and needed to go to bed, and my DH had showed up with a cloth and told me to get it cleaned up, I would have resented him and been irritable.  And I'm an adult with control over my emotions (most of the time).  What worked better, for my kids anyway, was for me to accept that sometimes they need grace and love, not a lesson in how to keep a house clean and consequences when they don't (especially at 4 years old).  What might work better next time is to smile, maybe point out that you make messes too sometimes, and start cleaning with her.  Make it a bonding time.  If she melts anyway, ask if she needs some cuddle time first.  

 

3.  Also, you say she can control it when out with others so you know she can control it at home.  Think of it from this perspective.   When you are out in public, aren't you on your "best behavior"?  And when you come home you feel like you can be more "yourself"?  At least I do.   When she is not at home she is not in her safe zone.  She may be holding in all of her emotions to protect herself from the unknown.  Once she is home she is in her safe zone.  She is where she feels loved.  And where she can let out all those feelings that are very powerful and built up inside her.  Just because she can control herself outside of home does not mean that those same controls work when she IS home.  She needs somewhere that she can openly react.  A safe place to react to what she is feeling inside and to acknowledge her feelings.  Whether you think her feelings are an overreaction or not, she is feeling them, and very strongly.  

 

What she does need, though, is someone to help guide her in how to deal with those emotions before she gets too wound up and when they come on too suddenly to do that, then she needs someone to help her calm down again.  Sometimes that may mean helping her find a safe place in the house to scream and yell without dragging the rest of the house down with her.  Sometimes that may mean someone who will hold her and hug her and help her process all those strong feelings raging through her little body until she is able to think more rationally again.  And someone to protect the rest of the household from her tantrums while she processes through.  

 

It is exhausting and frustrating and draining for a parent to have to deal with, but she needs to know that she is not a bad kid and that emotions really can be overwhelming and you understand that and will help her, not just with words but with a support structure, something she can fall back on when she cannot think through.  Take a deep breath.  This will not last forever.

 

4.  Attacking her older brother...is she jealous?  Does he get along well with you and your husband?  I assume because of the age gap that he has privileges she doesn't.  And probably a lot more control over his life/schedule than she does?  She is little enough she may not really feel any of that is fair.  She may need some specifically structured one on one time to fill up her love cup but also maybe some positively structured time supervised with her brother to try and help build a better bond there.  She may also feel like she is in trouble a lot and he isn't, if she has a lot of tantrums and he doesn't.  She may internalize that difference as you and your husband like him better.  She may feel that he is a threat to your time and attention and love for her.  4 year olds often misread what is happening around them.  

 

5.  It might help for you to list things you can be looking out for that tend to trigger her and try to steer away from those situations before the trigger happens.  Have in your head a game plan for you when you are feeling overwhelmed, too.  Maybe tell her sometimes you need a time out, too.  Create a code word for the both of you.  When one of you is feeling like things are getting overwhelming say the code word.  That means you or she needs a break, maybe a hug, maybe time in a quiet corner with no stimulation.  Practice it together.  Let her see that you are human, too, and can feel overwhelmed by things, but you find ways to work through those emotions.  

 

There have been some good book recommendations up thread.  Perhaps reading through those will help you navigate these waters.  Hugs and best wishes.  Hang in there.  Before you know it she will be past this stage.  

[MaeFlowers]

Has this been going on for awhile, or is it a recent development?

 

Are you noticing anything else that seems different about her--ie speech differences, a lot of aversions to clothing, foods, etc?

Its been going on as long as I can remember. As a baby she would throw herself backwards and hit her head on the floor. At maybe 2, she got her brother in a headlock. She has always had an aversion to certain clothing. She hates pajamas because she feels choked and smothered. Getting her dressed is a battle. She has to have specific clothing (it must be soft) and it must be what she picks. Food is worse. She likes very few things. I can lie about turkey, pork and fish being chicken and she will eat it, though.

[MaeFlowers]

I find this book helpful for working with my emotionally volatile kids:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ZLVCXE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

My primary advice would to 1) don't invalidate their emotions--regardless of whether you think the reaction is disproportionate or unreasonable, their feelings are 100% real to them.

 

2) Don't get in a power struggle with a child behaving irrationally. You will only escalate matters.

I try not to invalidate her feelings. I tell her that I understand she is angry or frustrated but I also tell her that throwing things and hitting people is not an acceptable way to relate those feelings. I try to get her to use words. When she refuses to talk, I send her to her room or tell her she must stay put until said chore is done.

 

I also try, when she is calm, to talk about how could do things differently.

[MaeFlowers]

My first thought:

-half-years are a**holes. They just are, at least in my house. It's like 6 weeks of straight PMS before they're on the mend. 4.5, 5.5, 6.5....oh, the last was fun. He's now 6.75 and rather delightful. I don't get it. Part of it is a growth spurt, part is they are just....well...yeah.

 

After that, the only thing you can really do is continue to watch them like a hawk. Don't expect apologies, but nip behavior as much as possible and stand firm to reasonable expectations. Eventually they figure out a few things, like you mean what you say. And gradually they learn how to empathise which makes apologies possible. My kid got into a fight with the children next door and came home crying mad. He let it out, threatened to go back and tell them to apologise or he'd hit them (ugh. no), and eventually decided to go apologise for his part in the matter and come straight back home. Which is pretty freaking awesome for a 6yo. Had I insisted he did his personality would have definitely made sure it was insincere lip service and he would have continued to be angry.

 

Last, and the hardest, is filling up the love cup. Give your 4yo some undivided attention first thing in the morning and last thing at night. Carve time for your 12yo each day where you also teach the 4yo to respect boundaries and not butt in. Having them see that each one is important to you is helpful in teaching them that they're not in competition with each other.

I've been as consistent as I know how to be. She is very good at changing the game and couldn't care less about punishment. She doesn't seem to learn from it either.

 

Filling up the love cup is hard with this one. I could spend an hour with her and she wants two. And three and four. She is my shadow and wants my undivided attention most of the day. She butts into every conversation and makes schooling ds very difficult. She talks the entire time. She can't seem to help herself. She has danced on the table, cut up his clothes from behind, gotten under the table to bite his shins. It is one of the many reasons I am putting her in,school next month.

[MaeFlowers]

A change in diet dramatically helped my child. No dyes or food coloring, no artificial flavors, no unidentified, so-called "natural flavors," no preservatives. We basically do something similar to the Feingold Diet, except we don't avoid salicylates. The difference was night and day.

 

We also disciplined for tantrums. It's okay to feel angry/sad/disappointed/upset. It's not okay to scream, complain, throw yourself on the floor, hit people, throw things, or break things. You need to find a consequence she does care about and be consistent in using it.

 

Good luck!

I've thought about changing her diet. I have been making some small changes trying to get her to eat healthier options. She is my picky eater so it is just one more battle each day. I will continue to try, though.

[Tanaqui]

Its been going on as long as I can remember. As a baby she would throw herself backwards and hit her head on the floor. At maybe 2, she got her brother in a headlock. She has always had an aversion to certain clothing. She hates pajamas because she feels choked and smothered. Getting her dressed is a battle. She has to have specific clothing (it must be soft) and it must be what she picks. Food is worse. She likes very few things. I can lie about turkey, pork and fish being chicken and she will eat it, though.

 

This is starting to sound like a sensory processing issue. SPD can go hand in hand with any number of conditions that can make parenting a challenge.

 

Question, kinda off-topic - when you say she "likes very few things", do you mean so few that you can count them?

[lexi]

I don't have any real advice, just hugs. My oldest is so very much like how you describe your daughter. From 15 months old she has been an explosive tantrum throwing child. Her hysterical fits can last an hour. It is exhausting and discouraging as a parent.

She is now 11 and is learning (with our encouragement and help) some self control and ways to calm herself. But I sometimes feel like every day is a battle and I am so tired.

A book I've enjoyed is Motivate Your Child. It has Christian content but I found it helpful and insightful.

Now that my dd is older we can have discussions and she feels like her feelings are being heard. But she still seems to have a hard time understanding or caring how negatively her behavior and words affects others. So I'm listening in to what advice you get. I could always use some new perspective.

[OneStepAtATime]

Its been going on as long as I can remember. As a baby she would throw herself backwards and hit her head on the floor. At maybe 2, she got her brother in a headlock. She has always had an aversion to certain clothing. She hates pajamas because she feels choked and smothered. Getting her dressed is a battle. She has to have specific clothing (it must be soft) and it must be what she picks. Food is worse. She likes very few things. I can lie about turkey, pork and fish being chicken and she will eat it, though.

You may be dealing with a child with sensory integration issues.  You might consider getting an evaluation.  There are ways to work through sensory stuff that can make life easier and help her to develop coping skills for the future.  

[Anne in CA]

This is hard because there are so many ways to handle it and each may or may not be right for your particular child. She may have sensory issues, or she just may have an intense personality. She is still small and I have known similar children to outgrow these behaviors, and I have known similar children with some very permissive parents who waited for their child to outgrow these behaviors, were super patient and loving and the kids are now wrecks in their early 20's, still acting like this only at 25 it's really ugly. One kid I knew like this is now 30, living at home smoking pot every day to keep the tantrums at bay. He's never had a job. Another kid I knew like this is now 16, an amazing young man, super student, super older sibling (he has 5 younger siblings) and a great knitter, lol. 

[MaeFlowers]

Some of my dc are allergic to Red #40. Behavior would be super sweet, then she would eat Froot Loops or Skittles or whatever and be completely wild.

 

It took a while to figure out what the trigger was.

 

I would absolutely not tolerate how she is treating your son and I would allow him to defend himself. Punching someone in the face is assault and he should have some say in what her punishment is.

 

You say that she doesn't care what the punishment is. I have one like that, too. So I have to keep upping the punishment until she does care. If the punishment is "no screens" for a day and she says she doesn't care, it immediately becomes two days. When the punishment became no screens for a month, she suddenly realized that she should be quiet. And I enforced the punishment. No screens for a month.

 

If she hits her brother, I would give him her privileges. Such as, if she loses snack/dessert for a week, he gets his share plus hers. It might make her think twice if she sees him eating her dessert.

 

It's a hard thing to deal with.

I'm going to try and change her diet. I'm trying to do it slowly so there isn't too much kickback. Plus, I think slow,changes stick better.

 

As for my ds...he has permission to defend himself. At one point, the biting stage, I told him to bite her back hard enough to make her regret it. He did, she stopped for a while. There are two issues here. One, he is too nice and has the patience of Job. He can't stand being mean to anyone. Two, my punishing her makes her retaliate agaisnt him. She thinks its his fault she is in trouble. She can't seem to link her behavior to her punishment. If I gave him her shares, she would attack him more.

 

I'm on my phone so sorry about any typos.

[MaeFlowers]

I wanted to add that I am not trying to argue with anyone's suggestions. I'm trying to give more in-depth info as to what I have tried and how she responds. I really appreciate the feedback and am thinking about suggestions.

[Tanaqui]

She butts into every conversation and makes schooling ds very difficult. She talks the entire time. She can't seem to help herself.

 

She stayed in there for 20 minutes crying and talking to herself about how she hates the stupid rules.

 

For a very short while, the tantrums actually stopped because she didn't want to go to her room. Now, she goes in there and talks about how she hates this or that.

 

 

Four year olds can be chatterboxes, but this is starting to ring a bell in the back of my mind. I'm trying to remember what it reminds me of. Does she talk to herself a lot, besides when she's upset? Maybe narrate what she's doing?

[Melissa in Australia]

I need help. I'm pulling my hair out with this dear one.

 

Dd is 4 and she is normally a sweet, funny, outgoing little girl. And then, there is the stubborn, defiant side. When she doesn't like something or want to do something she throws a tantrum. Her tantrums usually involve crying, throwing things, screams from the pit of her stomach, throwing herself on the ground, etc. I'm at my wits end.

 

Example...last night she got her toothpaste all over the counter. I gave her a washcloth and asked her to clean it up. She began to cry. She just stood there and cried and would not clean it up or tell me why she was crying. (She often refuses to talk during these episodes.) I tried calming her and then said, okay, you can stay in the bathroom until this is done. She stayed in there for 20 minutes crying and talking to herself about how she hates the stupid rules. She finally calmed down after talking to my dh on the phone and then cleaned it up but then she threw the washcloth on the floor in defiance. When I then told her to go to bed, she threw herself on the floor and starting crying again. Needless to say, she went to bed 45 minutes past her bedtime. Obviously, being tired doesn't help but this happens at different times during the day. The other day she thought I was wrong about something so she threw what was in her hand across the room and when I sent her to the bedroom for doing so, started screaming bloody murder. She goes from happy to royally pissed off to happy again like nothing ever happened.

 

She also has it out for ds12. She will walk into his room and sock him in the face for no reason. She takes his things and breaks them or hides them. She lies constantly. She only says sorry when she is asked to and it does not come across as sincere.

 

I'm perfectly fine with her being mad or frustrated with things. I tell her so but explain that the bad behavior is not okay. I try to be understanding of her feelings but these tantrums make my life and everyone else's pretty hard. You just never know when she all explode. She may be willing to do something one day but not the next. I'm just so frustrated and she has brought me to tears over this stuff. I just don't why a four year old would be so mad.

 

Also, she only does this at home so I know she can control it. And consequences smonsequences...she cares nothing about the consequences.

 

I just don't know what to do. I feel like I have tried everything. I would really appreciate some advice.

I haven't read any replies.

For my older children I would spank. Worked every time.

 

For my younger children they are foster children and I cannot spank them. Instead what I do is say "let me help you follow instructions "I then hold the cloth in their hand and make their hand do whatever task they need to do to clean uptheir mess. It is a way of helping them regulate their emotions. I have to do this in a very non emotional tone of voice. Now (for the younger two) I can just say let me help you follow instructions and they quickly do the task.

 

the new arrival is finding this aproach completely out of his experience of adults. Before now people just let him do whatever would keep the peace ( hasbeen in foster care for 5 years).

[J-rap]

Just to throw out a few things...

 

I think some children are more prone to tantrums, etc.  Assuming that she just needs some help controlling these impulses...

 

In the bathroom example and cleaning up the toothpaste, the instant I had a feeling that she was going to fight it, I'd ignore it and just keep gently talking, smile, and say "here, let's do it together."  And you give her one washcloth and then take another one yourself, and begin doing it.  You might even end up doing most of it.  You can try singing a song together while doing it, or something to keep the focus light and stop her brain from clinging to that impulse.  For some reason she has those impulses that take control right now, but maybe if you really inserted yourself into those situations and tried to seamless and gently step in and immediately begin doing the expected response with her, her brain would slowly re-wire, over time, into more calmly jumping into a better reaction which is more practical and less emotion-based.

 

I don't know your bedtime routine, but again, perhaps by just walking through it with her, taking her hand, talking calmly, singing a song, talking about the fun book you are going to read once in bed, etc., it would eventually help her brain take a different, calmer "route" rather an impulsive, explosive route.

 

At this point, I'd treat it as a brain function that for some reason is more natural in her, and just work on slowly changing it by directly and calmly walking her through a better way of handling things.  

 

I'm not sure what I'd do about her actions to your son, but I guess my reaction would be initially to swoop down and grab her when she punched him, leave the room, and hold her until she calms down.  Maybe begin reading a book to her.  Help her learn how to calm herself.

 

I do have my children say they are sorry even though I know they often don't mean it at that age (or any age!).  I think it instills a good habit.  Sometimes our emotions won't match our words, but those words still might be the mature thing to say in a situation.  That's life.

[zoobie]

I would consider an eval for SPD. Check out the Out of Synch Child and the Highly Explosive Child. Have you noticed things that make it better/worse? Lots of large muscle exercise for example? Bouncing or spinning (might make it worse)? Screens?

 

Let DS keep his door locked if he's relaxing in his room and you're not able to be on her like white on rice.

 

Dairy allergy can cause behavior issues. Is she on any meds? Zyrtec is known for some intense behavioral side effects. Does she snore? Is she getting good, restful sleep?

 

I have an intense 4 year old. So far 4 has been better than 3. My oldest went nuts at 3.5 and then it amped up again 5.5-6.5.

[MaeFlowers]

I'm not sure I understand: I get that screaming isn't nice to be around, but why are you identifying her feelings as "over reacting"? Why does it matter so much to "everyone" that she sometimes melts down instead of being able to cope with a situation?

 

Most of these sound easily solved with, "Either you do xyz, or I will do it for you." Followed by doing it for her, followed by crying and comforting. That's a lot less unpleasant than extended screaming and a power struggle. You totally have all the power and all the solutions -- maybe explore your personal reasons for not using your power to solve things?

 

Are you (maybe?) experiencing non-compliance as a trigger, then working out your own emotions as the situation develops? Is non-compliance an issue if particular significance to you? Is 100% compliance one of your parenting goals? Is 95% compliance 5% "I'll do the right thing for you when it's particularly hard." acceptable in 4 year olds? Was compliance a big deal when you were a kid?

 

Maybe try simply letting moments of conflict pass, and teaching better behaviour skills during less fraught times when you can both be patent and receptive. It tends to be simpler and more effective to choise calm moments for kindly teaching than to try to get through to a child who is already not coping.

I think her feelings are over reacting because they do not seem appropriate for the situation. Screaming and crying does not seem like a reasonable reaction to being asked to cleanup a blob of toothpaste on the counter. Throwing her toys across the room when I tell her something does not belong to her does not seem like a reasonable reaction.

 

I'm totally okay with her saying that she is mad or doesn't like something. Throwing things, screaming and crying are not okay.

 

I don't have a huge deal with compliance. I'm pretty flexible and will listen to a well thought out argument. However, she's four so that probably isn't going to happen. However, I do expect my children to learn to take be responsible for their own things and learn to control their emotions. I'm having trouble with that part...the emotions. Her emotions are BIG in every way. And they are big about everything from getting dressed to brushing her teeth to what she will eat.

 

Lastly, I don't think about my having the power in the relationship because I don't parent that way. I try to give my kids a lot of power in their lives. Maybe I shouldn't?

[MaeFlowers]

This is starting to sound like a sensory processing issue. SPD can go hand in hand with any number of conditions that can make parenting a challenge.

 

Question, kinda off-topic - when you say she "likes very few things", do you mean so few that you can count them?

It used to be a very short list but it is getting better. She is willing to try one bite, usually. That's all I ask and I tell her it is okay if she doesn't like something. It seems more mental than an actual taste aversion. If I say we are having pork chops, she will tell me she won't eat it because it is disgusting. If I tell her the pork chops are chicken, she likes them. I know that's awful to do, but I'm trying to get some variety in her diet.

[MaeFlowers]

Four year olds can be chatterboxes, but this is starting to ring a bell in the back of my mind. I'm trying to remember what it reminds me of. Does she talk to herself a lot, besides when she's upset? Maybe narrate what she's doing?

She does talk to herself all the time. And sings. She told me once she couldn't do what she was doing without talking herself through it. Some days are better than others. I always assumed it is because she likes interaction. She is very much the extrovert and I assumed this is normal for extroverts. The rest of us are introverts.

[MaeFlowers]

I'm not taking offense to anything. At this point, I'm so worn out that I'm willing to hear everyone.

 

I didn't respond to everyone but I really appreciate all of your responses. I'm going to look into the book recommendations and SPD.

 

I really think I have dropped the ball in regards to her relationship with her brother. As on only child, sibling relationships are foreign territory. I thought for a long time I should stay out of it as much as possible and let them learn to resolve their own conflict. I guess I was afraid of getting too involved because my Dh's family was never allowed to fight, ever, and it had very bad implications. I'm going to have to work on that one quite a bit.

[Loowit]

My youngest had similar behaviors that started when he was very young.  I kept getting told it was normal for a child to tantrum, and it is to a point, but when it gets extreme then it is time to find out why and new ways to deal with it.  My DS starting when he was a toddler would suddenly, for not apparent reason, get up and run across the room and start hitting his older brother.  He was very defiant in his behavior and his tantrums became destructive.  I used to have to hold him while he was tantruming to keep him from injuring himself and others.

 

Like your daughter he only did it at home, in public he was a perfect angel.  I thought that that meant that he could control himself, but he just didn't want to at home.  But as he got older he started to have more and more trouble controlling his tantrums in public.  The final straw was him attacking another child at camp when he was 5 years old.  I made an appointment with his doctor that afternoon and got him into counseling as soon as we could.  It was not a perfect solution and it took a lot of time and work to figure out what was going on with him.  We found out that the biggest factor was a medication he was taking for his asthma, but he also had other issues.  He has OCD and anxiety.  We worked for years with a therapist and right now he is on medication that is helping tremendously.

 

I am not trying to say that there is anything like this going on with your daughter, but sometimes there are causes for the behavior other than just being a typical 4 year old.  It can be hard to know the difference for a parent and even for professionals at times.  I think that getting an evaluation would be prudent.  If you are dealing with something other than typical age appropriate behavior then knowing will help you to be able to deal with it in a much more helpful manner.  Traditional parenting methods that worked great on my older two do not work for my youngest.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just chiming back in to say that what looked like normal four year old tantrums in your first post, look a bit less normal in subsequent posts.  I agree with looking into SPD. 

[Pippen]

Its been going on as long as I can remember. As a baby she would throw herself backwards and hit her head on the floor. At maybe 2, she got her brother in a headlock. She has always had an aversion to certain clothing. She hates pajamas because she feels choked and smothered. Getting her dressed is a battle. She has to have specific clothing (it must be soft) and it must be what she picks. Food is worse. She likes very few things. I can lie about turkey, pork and fish being chicken and she will eat it, though.

 

I would suggest getting your hands on a book called "What Your Explosive Child is Trying To Tell You: Discovering the Pathway from Symptoms to Solutions." It will guide you in taking a look at symptoms across the board instead of just focusing in on the behavioral aspects. Sometimes we just have a child who is more prone to tantrums, but sometimes there's more going on and it's worth looking for any underlying causes. Especially when the behaviors have been going on long term.

 

https://www.amazon.com/What-Your-Explosive-Child-Trying/dp/0618700811/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1483216662&sr=8-1&keywords=what+your+explosive+child+is+trying+to+tell+you

[maize]

I remember one of my kids going through a period where when they got frustrated they would turn and bite an older sibling.

 

My kids have a variety of challenges they are dealing with--sensory processing, ADHD, anxiety, maybe other stuff (sometimes things overlap and diagnosis isn't precise). I did find evaluations helpful. I try to take the approach of being on a team with my child, trying to help them learn and navigate life. I assume when there are behavioral difficulties that those are an indication that this child is facing something they are not quite able to handle on their own.

 

I wish I had some magical advice that would make the meltdown and problematic behaviors stop. Some of these kids can be really challenging to parent.

 

In addition to the sensory stuff, constant talking can be a symptom of ADHD. Verbal self talk on the whole is a good thing as a stepping stone to internal self talk that can help us organize our minds and behavior, I wouldn't see it as a bad thing. But constant talking is fairly unusual.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Its been going on as long as I can remember. As a baby she would throw herself backwards and hit her head on the floor. At maybe 2, she got her brother in a headlock. She has always had an aversion to certain clothing. She hates pajamas because she feels choked and smothered. Getting her dressed is a battle. She has to have specific clothing (it must be soft) and it must be what she picks. Food is worse. She likes very few things. I can lie about turkey, pork and fish being chicken and she will eat it, though.

 

This just screams sensory processing issues.  You are describing one of my kids at that age. Her brain does not know what to do with sensory input and how to modulate it (and taste/texture are sensory input as well.)  Think of the seams/tags in her clothing as patches of sandpaper.  Smells can be a constant onslaught of ammonia or slicing onions.   Background noise is like a jet engine in the background.  Even colors ... a color combination may be like a neon flashing sign in your least favorite colors.  If that is what your brain is having to deal with all day, it is not at all unreasonable to expect a kid to just lose it.  And, then, not be able to get back to normal in an easy manner because the tantrum can intensify those feelings.  Punishment is not the answer.  Therapy to teach the brain how to process that information so that every day is not so overwhelming.  We saw a huge change in our kid within 6 months of doing therapy.  I cried when I noticed that my child smiled and laughed more and that the tantrums had been reduced to only 2-3 a week rather than 4 a day.  We also did breathing practice - just taking slow calming breaths so that I could sometimes nip a tantrum in the bud if I could do some of that breathing with my child.  This also helped me stay calm because I was dealing with a lot of judgement ... I must suck as a parent if I have a kid who behaves this way. 

 

 

I try not to invalidate her feelings. I tell her that I understand she is angry or frustrated but I also tell her that throwing things and hitting people is not an acceptable way to relate those feelings. I try to get her to use words. When she refuses to talk, I send her to her room or tell her she must stay put until said chore is done.

 

I also try, when she is calm, to talk about how could do things differently.

Whether the tantrum is caused by sensory issues or just any other meltdown, that is not the time for talking and dealing with the issue.  It is like trying to reason with a wild animal. The rational part of her brain is not hearing you ... just the emotional part, which is already on high alert.  Making a single statement of how a behavior is not acceptable and calmly removing them to a safe, quiet place ... not as a punishment, but a place to deal with the onslaught of emotions.   No threats.  No warnings.    The time for discussion is well-removed from the situation that led to the tantrum in the first place.

 

But, seriously, please get your child evaluated for sensory processing and other neurodevelopmental issues.  You will be doing your child and your family a favor in the long run. 

 

ETA: and I just wanted to give you a hug.  This is hard.  Parenting a kids with these issues is just plain hard and can be overwhelming.  And I do want to reiterate what Maize said above ... that your child needs to see you as being on her team and you working together to help her learn how to navigate through life.  I had to flip my thinking.  I had to stop letting external judgement of my parenting move me toward being punitive and keep make myself my child's biggest ally. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by dirty ethel rackham

[Crimson Wife]

She does talk to herself all the time. And sings. She told me once she couldn't do what she was doing without talking herself through it. Some days are better than others. I always assumed it is because she likes interaction. She is very much the extrovert and I assumed this is normal for extroverts. The rest of us are introverts.

 

This sounds like "verbal stimming" and can be a sign of autism. Just because she is extroverted and outgoing does not rule out an autism diagnosis. I was so sure that my child was "too social" to have autism but what I didn't realize was that high-functioning girls "on the spectrum" can present very differently from the stereotype of the anti-social loner who hates being touched.

 

I'm not saying that she is "on the spectrum" but from what you describe, she has enough "red flags" that I would encourage you to have her evaluated by a developmental pediatrician or neuropsychologist. Just make sure whomever you see for an eval is familiar with how ASD can present in higher-functioning girls.

 

[BrittanyM]

I would also look into SPD. I have a close friend who's daughter has it and a lot of what you're describing sounds like issues she has had.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Crimson Wife]

This list isn't perfect but it's a good place to start to see if she has any other "red flags": https://taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/first-signs-of-asperger-syndrome-in-young-girls-pre-school/

[gardenmom5]

I was going to suggest taking a look at what she's eating too. My youngest was 5-6 when we figured it out. Red 40 and Yellows 5 and 6 are the worst, but caramel coloring can also do it (depending on the formulation, I guess). And for her, it doesn't happen the same day. Its usually 12-36 hours later, so it took us a long time to connect the ingestion with the behavior. She also would be a sunny, sweet, funny kid, until you crossed her in some way--told her no, or required her to do a chore or remediate some situation she caused (like the toothpaste). And of course consequences and reason meant nothing, because you can't reason with someone whose brain isn't working properly!

 

She's still a strong-willed kid, but now it's completely obvious when she's eaten something she shouldn't have. Immediately, one of us (and occasionally even she herself) will start questioning what she ate the day before, and 90% of the time we'll be able to spot the offending food. 

 

This kind of thing isn't always the case, of course, but it could be a good starting point for investigating what's going on. It doesn't have to be dyes either--there are all kinds of additives in just about everything. We thought we were eating a mostly clean, organic diet, but even a twice weekly treat or meal out would put enough in her system to make her volatile for a couple of days. I would also focus on what she does to her brother as a first step. My oldest DD took the brunt of her sister's low-level rage (biting, hitting, pinching, etc.) for years until we figured out what was going on, and it definitely didn't do their relationship any favors :(

 

:grouphug:  to you. It's hard to live this way. I hope you can figure out what's going on and how to resolve it.

 

ETA: I also wouldn't assume that because it doesn't happen out in public doesn't mean she can control it, really. I think it's human nature to be on your best behavior in public and then feel more comfortable releasing your feelings at home. When I went for DD's first preschool parent-teacher meeting, I was dreading what I would hear about how she was acting to the other kids. But no, all they had to say was that she was charming, smart, helpful, etc. They were so surprised when I asked about hitting, biting, and other behaviors, because they saw none of it. Of course, almost as soon as I got her in the car, the frustration would start up, and at home she was her usual struggling self. I have another friend with a "spirited" kid who held herself together beautifully in school every day but who would have a meltdown nearly every day when she got home. She grew out of it, thankfully :D

 

 

good advice.

 

dudeling reacted  to nitrates.

one day he was flipping out, completely out of control. . . . and it came to me.  "what have you been eating?"

processed meats (and anything else containing nitrates/-ites) went the way of the dodo.  big improvement.

I also had to pull soda because of the HFCS.  (it really does contain mercury.  minute traces sure, but it's there and dudeling wasn't capable of detoxing it from his system.  I have the lab results.)

[MaeFlowers]

First, I want to make it clear that I don't try to talk to her in the moment. I calmly tell her not to throw things or hit others. (Most of her physical stuff is directed at ds.) I do try to talk to her later.

 

I will look more into spd and asd.

 

I have to admit, getting her evaluated is going to be an uphill battle in this house. Getting ds evaluated for adhd was a fight and even when he was diagnosed, everyone in the family thought it was bunk. He never really got the testing he needed and I've been thinking about getting his done this year. Does anyone recommend a good starting point that would be less expensive? I need someone to back me so that I can push for more expensive testing. (The Neuro here is $3k.)

[maize]

If you can find a developmental pediatrician in your insurance network any evaluations they do should be covered.