update/new twist at post #1 Turmoil/conflict at my ds's main extracurricular: I need ideas for how to stay neutral--and not be hated by both sides

[Pen]

*Please don't quote*

 

Just before time to leave, I got a message from one of the people on a "side" of conflict asking if I would contribute for a gift to one of ds's two main important coaches, on the basis of what a great coaching job is being done by this coach, and how much the coach has contributed to  the upcoming Show.  

 

This feels to me like a political  gambit, and there have been many people, coaches and others, who have contributed hugely to the Show.

 

This is one I have to say either Yes or No to.  Yes feels like saying yes to joining the side of the asker. No feels like not being appreciative of one of ds's main important coaches.

 

WWYD?

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Pen

[Pen]

Also. Please don't quote this or prior post since I plan to erase later.

 

to add...   I also don't want my ds to end up pulled into this in a bad way personally for him ....   

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't suppose there is any way to have a higher up sit down and discuss this with everyone involved?  Has it reached that point?  Are other parents aware?

 

Would it be possible to just have a sit down with the immediate people involved and just try to hash some things out?  Is there bad blood between people?  Or is this a power play to get a position that wasn't their's before?  Or...?  

 

I agree, staying neutral while also trying to keep things going smoothly when you have no real authority to influence things can be horrifically hard to succeed at.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Pen]

nm

Edited December 5, 2016 by Pen

[bolt.]

My advice for your goal (not taking sides, not getting dragged in) is to "play the ditz" -- don't worry your pretty little head about it. Don't try to figure it out, and use confusion an positivity as a weapon.

 

In general, feign total ignorance. If people try to catch you up on the situation pretend to be surprised to learn there even is a situation... Listen distractedly, and promptly forget all that they tell you. Telegraph total disinterest will all the body language you have.

 

If someone is insistently talking with you about it, look confused and say things like, "Oh, I don't know anything about that, but I'm sure it will work out!" If they complain express sympathy, like, "That's unfortunate!" Bean-dip people whenever you feel yourself being dragged in (ie be prepared with various topics to abruptly transition to as a distraction). Let them be patronizing, and hope they move on.

 

In this way you will not be seen as a power player, and your disinterest will be obvious to all. They may think you are an idiot... but they will probably have some goodwill towards your child if they do.

[Miss Tick]

My approach would be to stay as quiet as possible, try to avoid eye contact if you are feeling tensions around you, go armed with personal, unrelated anecdotes to share if you get cornered ("I almost slipped off the road driving in this morning, very traumatic, still tense")

 

Separately, prepare yourself and your son for whatever the outcome is. It is an unusual situation in this day and age to completely release control over an outcome.

[Anne]

Do what Bolt said - there's probably no other easy way to stay out of the fray.

 

Anne

[Pen]

My advice for your goal (not taking sides, not getting dragged in) is to "play the ditz" -- don't worry your pretty little head about it. Don't try to figure it out, and use confusion an positivity as a weapon.

 

In general, feign total ignorance. If people try to catch you up on the situation pretend to be surprised to learn there even is a situation... Listen distractedly, and promptly forget all that they tell you. Telegraph total disinterest will all the body language you have.

 

If someone is insistently talking with you about it, look confused and say things like, "Oh, I don't know anything about that, but I'm sure it will work out!" If they complain express sympathy, like, "That's unfortunate!" Bean-dip people whenever you feel yourself being dragged in (ie be prepared with various topics to abruptly transition to as a distraction). Let them be patronizing, and hope they move on.

 

In this way you will not be seen as a power player, and your disinterest will be obvious to all. They may think you are an idiot... but they will probably have some goodwill towards your child if they do.

 

Brilliant!!!   Don't know if I  can pull this off, but I'm going to try!!!!

 

It's too late to feign total ignorance, but in truth:

 

To add to it, I have 1) my mom is in fire danger area of Southeast USA which truly is on my mind a lot;

2) my septic is having troubles

3) my house foundation is having troubles

4) my dad has a serious cancer

5) my ds is having a rocky time in transition from homeschool to public school

 

 

Really, I  that's so much all on my mind, I just can't focus on the rink's squabbles, so even though I did know something was going on, I think I have forgotten now, or certainly need to forget ASAP and get back to my son's transition issues, or the septic, or the dishes, or getting ready for a hard freeze tonight etc. which are things I might actually be able to do something about.

 

 

 

 

My approach would be to stay as quiet as possible, try to avoid eye contact if you are feeling tensions around you, go armed with personal, unrelated anecdotes to share if you get cornered ("I almost slipped off the road driving in this morning, very traumatic, still tense")

 

Separately, prepare yourself and your son for whatever the outcome is. It is an unusual situation in this day and age to completely release control over an outcome.

 

 

This is good too. Thank you.  

 

The parts of outcome I think I am most concerned about right now, besides one or the other of his excellent coaches leaving or being forced out, or even what is going on wrecking the club entirely so the whole thing folds, is that a little girl and her mom seem to be alleging possibly abusive behavior by one of the coaches. I am concerned that my son could get similarly accused. The little girl seems to have a crush on my son and chases him around the rink.

[bolt.]

If there is an allegation of abusive behaviour, I tend to need to force myself to firmly consider both the possibility ( a ) that it could be absolutely true (many people who abuse one child from a position of trust abdolutely do a great job with all the other children they interact with), and ( b ) that it is also possible, though less likely, that it is false.

 

I'm not sure why you worry that your son might suffer an accusation -- unless you have accidentally jumped to the conclusion that the little girl probably isn't telling the truth? And is therefore likely to add more untruths? (Perhaps because you are fond of the coach, and maybe not very fond of a girl who annoys your son?)

 

If so, that's an understandable reaction, but it's a mistake. If you can't accept an accusation from a child at face value: you at least need to hold both possibilities as "equally unknown".

 

Abusers excel at manipulating bystanders into jumping to the conclusion that they really couldn't possibly be that kind of person. Many, many of these situations end with, "That's the last person I would have had any suspicion about!" (And lots of them also come to a shuddering halt with a child being unable to get anyone to take them seriously, and everything continuing on as before.)

 

So, unless this coach is cleared by a legitimate means: please don't become part of overshadowing the girl with the assumption that she is most likely making *false* allegations. She's just making allegations: nobody knows enough facts to decide what's 'likely'.

[Reefgazer]

When situations like this arise in front of me, I try and keep my head down, my mouth and opinions to myself, and wait for it to blow over.  IOW, don't make enemies and take a publically neutral stance at all times.

[kiwik]

I would just point out that I have too many life threatening issues to worry about right now and simply don't have any energy left for club politics.

[Pen]

...

 

I'm not sure why you worry that your son might suffer an accusation -- ...

 

So, unless this coach is cleared by a legitimate means: please don't become part of overshadowing the girl with the assumption that she is most likely making *false* allegations. She's just making allegations: nobody knows enough facts to decide what's 'likely'.

 

 

 

Her allegations may have been true. The coach apologized for apparently having held her hand too tightly. And he does glare, and is critical (I know from experience since I've been on the receiving end myself--though the alleged instance was probably not directed at the girl--more likely at my son whose lesson it was). He is a nitpicking, get it perfect, technical coach. That is what he does. It has helped my ds advance rapidly and is good for this coach's student's form, as compared to the students of more lax coaches.  

 

That is not the point in terms of my concern about my ds.

 

I think a 7yo girl chasing a 14yo boy around on ice is already a risk factor for injury without needing to know any more "facts." I just had not been focussing on it till the allegations and recent turmoil.

 

So far he has been able to skate so much better that he can easily get away--but if she falls while chasing, or gets too close when he is trying to do a spin or other maneuver and gets hit by a much bigger kid, maybe even by a skate blade, that could be a problem. If she catches him, he may not be able to disengage easily and there could be injury or touch issues.  She has gotten two more little girls to join recently, so that much more likely to maybe be able to catch him and for it to be hard to disengage. He is not there to play with little kids or babysit them during figure skate practice ice time--which is supposed to be for skaters who are at a skill level and maturity to be working on their own skills, not messing around. He does sometimes play tag with other teens during public ice time, but that is a mutually chosen game amongst similar age, size, and ability kids. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Pen

[katilac]

Would anyone be advising the father to escape involvement by acting like a dizzy ditz whose pretty little head just can't remember or understand what is going on? Would anyone be telling a man it doesn't matter if people think he's an idiot? 

 

OP, if you do not wish to be involved, just find your voice and say that. You do not have to play dumb, and you do not have to give excuses. Think of a few standard phrases and you won't be caught unaware. 

 

"Let me stop you right there - this is between X and Y, and I am not getting involved." 

 

"I am not comfortable talking about X when he isn't here." 

 

"I've decided I'm not going to talk about that. It will have to be worked out by (the people involved, the boss, the board of directors)."

 

These people have no power over you, they can't make you listen or discuss. Straightforwardly tell them you are not going to talk about it. Stepping around problems is never as simple as addressing them head on.  

[Pen]

Would anyone be advising the father to escape involvement by acting like a dizzy ditz whose pretty little head just can't remember or understand what is going on? Would anyone be telling a man it doesn't matter if people think he's an idiot? 

 

OP, if you do not wish to be involved, just find your voice and say that. You do not have to play dumb, and you do not have to give excuses. Think of a few standard phrases and you won't be caught unaware. 

 

"Let me stop you right there - this is between X and Y, and I am not getting involved." 

 

"I am not comfortable talking about X when he isn't here." 

 

"I've decided I'm not going to talk about that. It will have to be worked out by (the people involved, the boss, the board of directors)."

 

These people have no power over you, they can't make you listen or discuss. Straightforwardly tell them you are not going to talk about it. Stepping around problems is never as simple as addressing them head on.  

 

 

This is also an excellent point. I cannot act like a dizzy ditz in a certain sense, in any case. It is too late for that.  But a combo of having other things in my life that are more important than the rink drama plus your ideas above would be good.

 

The reality is that I think you are totally right-on correct, but it is like the approach I have taken in past that gets me hated by both sides for not taking their side.  I think the other approach, short of dizzy ditz, might be worth trying to see if I can use it to be neutral, but not mutually hated.

 

I do like your 3rd sentence, and plan to memorize a version of it, and have it ready for use. Though for the most recent time someone has called about this, I did use the step around the problem method and simply didn't return the call.

 

My gut reaction is that stepping away and saying that I need to focus on my parent who is having smoke induced respiratory problems and other issues (true) will defuse things better than a refusal to talk about it without that.

 

 

 

It is a drama that tends to suck people in, and that is hard to disengage from, but that is what I need to do.  At the same time, I am thinking that I need something that is not necessarily ditzy, but less hard a response.  Maybe like it is an invitation, and instead of replying just a flat, "no, I don't want to do that" something more like, "no, thank you for thinking of me, but I just can't."

 

I'm thinking that a true thing that I can say e to anyone approaching me about it i would be something like, "I really appreciate you and what you have done in your capacity as ____, and I also really value _____ and his/her role as _____ . I hope that you can all work this out in a mutually beneficial way, and I really don't want any of you to leave or the club to fall apart."  All of this is true, but I think less harsh, and may be better.

 

It is at least different than what I've tried in past that has not worked well for me.

 

At the same time, I fear that it is likely that someone will end up leaving, and that who will end up leaving will be the people who are needed to have a skating club at all, or at least will include one or both of ds's coaches, which basically mean for him that it is over.

[bolt.]

Would anyone be advising the father to escape involvement by acting like a dizzy ditz whose pretty little head just can't remember or understand what is going on? Would anyone be telling a man it doesn't matter if people think he's an idiot?

 

OP, if you do not wish to be involved, just find your voice and say that. You do not have to play dumb, and you do not have to give excuses. Think of a few standard phrases and you won't be caught unaware.

 

"Let me stop you right there - this is between X and Y, and I am not getting involved."

 

"I am not comfortable talking about X when he isn't here."

 

"I've decided I'm not going to talk about that. It will have to be worked out by (the people involved, the boss, the board of directors)."

 

These people have no power over you, they can't make you listen or discuss. Straightforwardly tell them you are not going to talk about it. Stepping around problems is never as simple as addressing them head on.

Well, I wouldn't have said "ditz" as the mnumonic, but I'm quite comfortable with a man (if he wants to) deciding he doesn't mind minor aquaintences thinking he's an idiot.

 

There are definitely male "idiot personas" available for men who would rather avoid unnecessary drama and save their "voice" for situations they actually care about.

 

People don't need to fight every battle. They don't need to be strong everywhere they go. Dodging other people's stupidity instead of confronting it is a fine option for either gender.

 

As far as gender theory, I think it's fascinating that you don't think of it as a very man-appropriate strategy, so you object to it as a recommendation for a woman. (I wonder how you would feel about a man acting on his freedom to behave in in this way, since it seems to challenge some common stereotypes about men.)

[katilac]

Well, I wouldn't have said "ditz" as the mnumonic, but I'm quite comfortable with a man (if he wants to) deciding he doesn't mind minor aquaintences thinking he's an idiot.

 

There are definitely male "idiot personas" available for men who would rather avoid unnecessary drama and save their "voice" for situations they actually care about.

 

People don't need to fight every battle. They don't need to be strong everywhere they go. Dodging other people's stupidity instead of confronting it is a fine option for either gender.

 

As far as gender theory, I think it's fascinating that you don't think of it as a very man-appropriate strategy, so you object to it as a recommendation for a woman. (I wonder how you would feel about a man acting on his freedom to behave in in this way, since it seems to challenge some common stereotypes about men.)

 

To clarify, I don't think anyone should act like an idiot. There are enough actual idiots in the world without muddying the waters.

 

I think that grown people should do their best to be straightforward about their actions. By no means am I claiming to be perfect at it, but being a parent has definitely motivated me to work hard at modeling the behavior I would like my kids to emulate. 

 

I can and do say the wrong thing at times, but acting like an idiot so people dismiss me is never going to be my game plan. In the personal sense, I think that it is disrespectful to one's self, and that acting and talking in a certain way does have an effect on how you think and feel about yourself, even if you are doing it on purpose. 

 

In a practical sense, people who are currently no more than casual acquaintances may one day be in the position of offering you a job, or recommending you for one, or some similar business matter. My dh gets calls at least a couple of times a month, "What do you know about so-and-so?" The answer shouldn't be, "I only know them because our kids play baseball together, but he seems like a real idiot." 

Edited December 6, 2016 by katilac

[bolt.]

I hope that works out well for you. I don't really have enough energy to manage all my aquaintences with such care or hold myself to such high standards of conduct.

 

I'm not always straightforward because I'm not always interested in managing the fallout of that kind of choice. I don't think I owe it to anyone (self or others) to 'always try' to do it anyways. Sometimes I just revel in the freedom I have to not bother.

 

I'm also not concerned if my kids pick up the ability to do the same, so the modelling aspect doesn't bug me.

 

Plus, I'm pretty sure that plenty of people catch me being an actual idiot (accidentally) from time to time.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'd much rather say "I really like the individual people involved and do not want to be involved in whatever conflict is brewing. It is not my conflict and I don't want to take sides. "

 

I don't understand the play acting suggestions. Honestly, that sounds a bit juvenile.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pen]

 

I'm thinking that a true thing that I can say e to anyone approaching me about it i would be something like, "I really appreciate you and what you have done in your capacity as ____, and I also really value _____ and his/her role as _____ . I hope that you can all work this out in a mutually beneficial way, and I really don't want any of you to leave or the club to fall apart."  All of this is true, but I think less harsh, and may be better.

 

 

 

 

Well, I'm getting ready to pick up ds and go in to skating.

 

Do you think that saying some specific positive things aloud (rather than a more general  "I like both/all of _____, ______, and _____,"  type comment) if I am asked could help others to see positive aspects of the person they are in conflict with in a helpful way? Or do you think that would just further antagonize someone/everyone?

 

The positives and negatives of each of the main people are sort of the flip sides of each other, or a positive taken too far, or farther than a particular person on "receiving end" can handle.

 

And do you think that either the more general or specific positive of I like the various people in the controversy followed by "and I don't want to be involved" ending is better,

 

or,

 

is an ending of what I want  or hope in a more positive way... such as, "hope everyone can work it out in a positive way." and/or "don't want anyone to have to leave the Club" don't want either of the two coaches my son most counts on to leave or be pushed out type ending is better?

 

and/or is to mention the real reality that I have a lot of stuff happening in my life that I need to focus on and cannot get involved better?

 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Pen

[Valley Girl]

Well, I'm getting ready to pick up ds and go in to skating.

 

Do you think that saying some specific positive things aloud (rather than a more general  "I like both/all of _____, ______, and _____,"  type comment) if I am asked could help others to see positive aspects of the person they are in conflict with in a helpful way? Or do you think that would just further antagonize someone/everyone?

 

The positives and negatives of each of the main people are sort of the flip sides of each other, or a positive taken too far, or farther than a particular person on "receiving end" can handle.

 

And do you think that either the more general or specific positive of I like the various people in the controversy followed by "and I don't want to be involved" ending is better,

 

 

I think if you don't want to get involved, then it would be best not to get into comments like that. There were some good suggestions for neutral, I'm-staying-out-of-it responses upthread. I think if you start trying to "help," you'll just open yourself up to headaches you don't want or need over this whole thing.

[Jyhwkmama]

"Sorry, we have no extra Christmas budget this year, but I truly appreciate everyone's contributions."

[bettyandbob]

Response to update

 

Tell the person your family will not be contributing to group gifts this year. Say you may reevaluate at the later date, but your family is making decisions on coach presents along this year. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, I'm getting ready to pick up ds and go in to skating.

 

Do you think that saying some specific positive things aloud (rather than a more general  "I like both/all of _____, ______, and _____,"  type comment) if I am asked could help others to see positive aspects of the person they are in conflict with in a helpful way? Or do you think that would just further antagonize someone/everyone?

 

The positives and negatives of each of the main people are sort of the flip sides of each other, or a positive taken too far, or farther than a particular person on "receiving end" can handle.

 

And do you think that either the more general or specific positive of I like the various people in the controversy followed by "and I don't want to be involved" ending is better,

 

or,

 

is an ending of what I want  or hope in a more positive way... such as, "hope everyone can work it out in a positive way." and/or "don't want anyone to have to leave the Club" don't want either of the two coaches my son most counts on to leave or be pushed out type ending is better?

 

and/or is to mention the real reality that I have a lot of stuff happening in my life that I need to focus on and cannot get involved better?

 

I see this as part of a continuum.  I would start with "I hope that everyone can work it out in a positive way." and then pass the bean dip.  If someone keeps bringing it back, I would do the "I like all of the individuals involved" kind of speech but without trying to be specific.  Then if someone was really harping on it I would say "I have a lot on my plate right now and just can't get involved."  I would not start with the last though because some people would take that as a brush off, I think.  But I don't think that there is only one way to address this since it is part of a larger conversation / relationship and those aren't always cut and dried. 

 

 

Edited to say that those responses are regarding the controversy and attendant drama.  I like what Jyhwkmama said specifically about the gifts. 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Jean in Newcastle

[Garga]

For the update:

 

I'd say, "Dang it!  We already bought our presents for the coaches and everyone this year!  If only we'd have known sooner.  Oh well.  Maybe next year!"   And then run out and get a few gift cards for some of the leaders at the place.  Yes, it'll cost money, but will keep you out of the tangle.

[Plink]

I agree with Garga - buy your own gifts, and stay out of the group drama.

 

As to how to handle friends, I'd totally use your life situation as an "excuse" to get out of difficult conversations.  "You know what, with everything going on with Dad I just can't handle any more negativity.  Is it okay if we talk about something more cheerful?  What are you giving Timmy for Christmas this year?"

[retiredHSmom]

I have not been in this particular situation before but have watched from afar as ballet studio that we had just moved out of state from imploded during mess like this. 

 

My suggestion, as hard as it seems, is to take a month off.  Go practice at another rink without coaching until January or cross-train, hire a personal trainer to set up a weightlifting routine for your son, swim daily, or just take a break.  Then see how things lay and jump back in to the situation that seems best for your son.

 

I know that it sounds impossible to do.  I was a nationally ranked synchronized swimmer and I took a month off twice for family moves with the military and in the long run it didn't hurt my training at all.

[Carol in Cal.]

I would either buy a gift for EACH coach, and email back that I did that, OR say, great, sure, I'd love to kick in $$, BTW, do you happen to know who is collecting for Coach B?  Or are you doing both of them?  

[Seasider]

 

Regarding this new question, I would say that I'd already planned to express appreciation from my own family so I wouldn't also be contributing to a group gift.

 

Edited because whoops! Sorry I quoted.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Seasider

[happi duck]

I would probably say no to donating to one coach.

 

"I don't want to donate if only one coach is getting a gift."

 

Or

 

"Sorry! We already have our gifts for all the coaches planned." (and then make sure to at least do a little something for each coach)

[TechWife]

I'd say no to a group gift for only one coach. Give your own gift to both coaches if you want to, otherwise don't worry about it.

 

I'm so sorry - political conflict is icky.

[38carrots]

They may think you are an idiot... but they will probably have some goodwill towards your child if they do.

 

Best. line. ever.

[catz]

I'd say no to a group gift for only one coach. Give your own gift to both coaches if you want to, otherwise don't worry about it.

 

:iagree: I would tell anyone you already have taken care of gifts for your family and do small gifts for both IF YOU WANT.  If you don't, that's ok too.

[maize]

"Oh, I'm so sorry, I've already chosen personal gifts for ds's coaches; we really do appreciate all they put into working with these kids!

[Pen]

Thanks all!  I hunkered down in a corner of the lobby of rink getting your ideas, and they helped me to deal with yesterday's new political wrinkle!

[MomatHWTK]

I would speak to someone about the younger girls on the ice and behaving in a way that is dangerous. If that issue wasn't addressed I'd keep my child off the ice until it was. Accident or not, I wouldn't want my child (of any age) to be in a situation where someone might get hurt. Even if it wasn't his fault, I'm sure he would feel some responsibility. I would also be concerned that my child might be injured trying to avoid an accident. 

[JustEm]

In regards to the update, I would ask, " what are we doing for all of the other people who contributed to the Show?"

[JustEm]

Or I would say that I like to show my appreciation on an individual basis rather than as a group gift. Which for me would be the truth because it feels more personal and less like a forced contribution since if you say no that gives people something to negatively think about you