When should I allow a calculator for Pre-Algebra?

[...................]

My dd has been asking a lot, about using a calculator to do the long division for percentage problems she's solving. She's not using the % button- in fact she doesn't know how anyway. ...I am so hesitant because I feel like once i open that door, it'll be a never ending struggle because she will (as with anything else) never stop asking me again.

 

However, I don't necessarily think long division is all that useful once you've been doing it for three years. ....

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

There is a percent button?! 

 

I have to go look for this...

 

 

[...................]

haha the bacon is laughing at me 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't see the percent button! 

 

Answering your question, I didn't allow it until algebra 2 for the trig problems.  But for occasional use for the problems you mention I would allow it.  I've lightened up a bit on this. 

[regentrude]

There should be no need for a calculator in prealgebra (nor in algebra, geometry, algebra 2, precalculus, and calculus, except for a handful of problems.)

 

If you use a curriculum that is designed to encourage calculator use by designing questions like this (which is a sign of laziness* on part of the curriculum creators), you might want to reevaluate this choice. 

I see the repercussions of this every day in my classes, and they are not pretty.

 

I allowed calculator use in high school chemistry and physics and on standardized tests. In math, only on about 3-4 problems per year, starting in geometry. 

 

*ETA: And the reason I say laziness is because it is perfectly possible to teach all important concepts post 4th grade arithmetic using numbers the student can easily manipulate without a calculator - if one invests some effort and has a clear understanding of the learning objective.

Edited November 14, 2016 by regentrude

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd still like to know where the percent button is. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ok I looked for pictures of calculators.  Apparently some of them do have a % button.  I have never used it. 

[regentrude]

Adding to my previous post to clarify:

If the curriculum has a problem like finding what percentage of 14,793 is 738, yes, I would let my kid use the calculator (and no, a percent button is not necessary for this). And I would scratch my head why they could not have bothered to make the question what percentage of 15,000 is 750.

[EKS]

I allow a four function calculator starting in Algebra I.  Well, that's not entirely true.  I also allowed it when my kids did the Challenging Word Problems books.

[raganfamily]

My oldest did not use a calculator and then we had to have Calculator 101 to prep for the ACT test and College Algebra.  So, I changed how I did things.  I have told my younger two they can start using a calculator once they hit Pre-Algebra.  (They still do work by hand and it is not all completed on the calculator, but they have it available)

 

I hope this helps

 

[Arcadia]

When you allow your child to use a calculator is something others can't decide for you because each child is different. My DS11 can use a calculator and not develop calculator dependency because his personality is such. My DS10 however would take the "easier way out" if a calculator is in his sight. To give you an example, my DS10 was trying to figure out square root of 196 and was reaching for the calculator and when told to "use his head", figured out in less than 2 minutes.

 

Both SAT and ACT have a non-calculator section. SAT science subject tests does not allow calculators. So while I am neutral about calculators and my kids have their own TI-84 graphing calculators, I also make sure my kids are able to feel confident at non-calculators test/exams like AMC8 and the SAT/ACT non-calculator section.

 

(ETA: ACT science is no calculators allowed. Math section allow calculators.)

Ok I looked for pictures of calculators. Apparently some of them do have a % button. I have never used it.

My kids' Casio fx-115ES has a percentage button but my kids didn't use it. Edited November 14, 2016 by Arcadia

[regentrude]

Both SAT and ACT have a non-calculator section. 

 

Since when?

[MerryAtHope]

I occasionally allow the use of a calculator in Alg 1 and up, but I stressed to my kids how important it is to keep up on basic skills, and asked them to only use it for longer problems (for example, if it's more than 2 digit by 2 digit multiplication). For the most part, it really wasn't necessary here, but there were occasionally some longer problems. I didn't allow calculators for tests until Pre-calc (for trig functions). 

[MerryAtHope]

Since when?

 

There's math in the science section, and they can't use calculators for that. 

[regentrude]

There's math in the science section, and they can't use calculators for that. 

 

ok - if she means that. that is really minimal though.

[Arcadia]

ok - if she means that. that is really minimal though.

I meant the math in science section, sorry for the confusion as I tend to lump both under math. When there are automatic scholarships for good ACT composite scores, having whatever is adequate non-calculator practice for the child to boost scores count. The same way I would let my kid use a graphing calculator for test prep on questions that favor a graphing calculator.

[justasque]

My dd has been asking a lot, about using a calculator to do the long division for percentage problems she's solving. She's not using the % button- in fact she doesn't know how anyway. ...I am so hesitant because I feel like once i open that door, it'll be a never ending struggle because she will (as with anything else) never stop asking me again.

 

However, I don't necessarily think long division is all that useful once you've been doing it for three years. ....

 

I believe that pre-algebra is too early to begin calculator use.  

Every single time you do a long division problem, you build the neural network that helps you to see the relationships between numbers - factors, fact families, patterns, etc.  

If she is struggling with percentage problems, teach her 1) how to cancel, 2) how to cross-multiply, 3) the basic idea that most percent problems can be set up as "part/whole = %/100".  Simply use an "x" for the unknown value (part, whole, or percentage - 100 is always 100) then solve for x.  

Canceling can both reduce the need for complicated long division problems, and help the student work on divisibility rules, factors, mental math skills, and general relationships between numbers.

 

All this practice will serve the student well when they begin factoring polynomials.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm also in the no-calculator before pre-calc camp.  And then only sparingly in pre-calc and calculus.   I totally agree with regentrude that a well-designed math curriculum will not ask problems that require a calculator.

 

The brief time I was a high school math teacher I was absolutely appalled at how dependent the kids were on calculators for the most basic of operations.  I had a no calculator policy in alg, geo, and algII classes, and it was as though I'd told the kids "no hands".  

[gstharr]

My kid is up to algebra 2 and has never been allowed to use a calculator--not even to check answers.  Things will probably change when he gets to pre-calc.  I understand that the pre-calc books have lessons on calculator usage.

[SilverMoon]

For regular use? Never.

 

The only time mine got one in prealg was when the book assigned it with square roots. One lesson. I think the same issue was in Foerster alg 1. I don't remember any in geometry.

 

Long division was so automatic by then that they could whip out several on the fly without skipping a beat.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't recall doing any long division problems in any pre-a book I've had/used.  I think it's rather ridiculous to have too many of them at that level.  I could see an occasional review problem if needed, but at that point to me it should be fairly solid and if it is then yeah I'd allow a calculator because it's just busy work.

 

 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

I allowed calculators starting around the 7th grade (so, last year) on a case by case basis - mostly in the following situation:

 

1. Complex word problem with several steps and the tricky part is figuring out what steps to take and in what order especially when

2. It uses "real world" numbers so the work will be tedious to do (4 x 4 multiplication, division by a 3 digit number) and will end with some sort of very long decimal.

 

My kiddo really has a habit of freezing up on word problems which we FINALLY started to move past last year, so I wanted to make sure we could focus on the part she was learning instead of the part she already knew.

 

In the situation you describe, Calming Tea, I'd probably make her do the work longhand, unless you're convinced she knows the material backwards and forwards. If that's the case... I'd skip to the next section. No use belaboring the point. However, if the curriculum is giving lots of weird numbers like "what is 17.354% of 19743.6", then it's reasonable to simply give a different set of numbers.

[Julie of KY]

When can they use a calculator - it depends on the situation.

 

Some textbooks are written where they expect the student to use a calculator - this annoys me and I avoid those textbooks.

 

If I had my say, all math would be done without calculators, far later than most students do. I've used AoPS and it is specifically written to be done without calculators at any level. My boys have essentially not used calculators through calculus except for annoying decimals and AP statistics.

 

My daughter uses a calculator for some of her prealgebra. She still needs a lot of work on basic arithmetic skills - long multiplication, division, decimals, etc. She can do these and we continue to work on them without calculators. However, her math logic is great and we continue to progress in math. She is allowed to use calculators for some problems to free up space in her brain so that she can work on the logic of the problem without getting bogged down with how to multiply two numbers. For anyone like her, I'd continue working on math by hand separate from the algebraic problem solving, but allow calculators to help them progress as long as they UNDERSTAND the math.

 

My middle schoolers use a calculator for Mathcounts - there is a portion of the test written to use calculators.

 

 

[Wheres Toto]

My son is using the "old" Math Mammoth 6A and there are problems that have a symbol telling him to use a calculator. Generally they seem to be word problems where it's more about figuring out HOW to set up the math, not necessarily to do the calculations.  

[madteaparty]

Good question. I switched recently from AOPS to Foerster (algebra) and at the end of a long word problem I do now permit the calculator. I have to watch it though because it seems you can enter the steps in there before the very last calculation so I need to be vigilant about its use.

To be completely honest, I found out he needs it for standardized tests and this affects my thinking. Also, math is not our thing. We are exhausted from the gazillion word problems that after he's correctly set up an equation and solved it, I'm not going to insists he shows me how he calculated to the third decimal. If my child was heading into STEM my answer would be different.

[FriedClams]

I don't allow one until algebra 2.

[Arcadia]

Looking at the sample in link, it looks like there are many problems/exercises in a unit.

http://www.rainbowresource.com/PreAlgebra_Teachers_Sample.pdf

 

I'll let her use the calculator for 1/3 to 1/2 of the questions in a problem set after she write down the working, depending on how many there are. If there are 30 similar problems, using 20 for computation practice and letting her use the calculator for 10 isn't that bad. Especially for questions on compound interest, makes no sense to work out everything by hand for every question if it is taking your child a long time. I do believe in the law of diminishing returns whether it is for math, music or anything else.

 

How long does she spend on math now if she calculates all by hand?

Edited November 15, 2016 by Arcadia

[RenaInTexas]

Never. 

 

[daijobu]

It sounds like the real question you may be asking is:

 

Is mastering long division by hand a worthwhile endeavor?

or

Does my daughter already understand long division and no longer needs the practice?   

 

If so, then it isn't a matter of using a calculator or not, but whether you should simply skip that unit and move on to something she ought to learn.  

[Farrar]

I'm generally against letting kids use them often. I made mine do all the percentage problems without and they did fine... except I let them use them for some of the hard word problems. I wanted them to focus on the problem solving, not the arithmetic that they'd already proved they could do fine and which, let's face it, is time consuming for a lot of percent problems.

 

I used to be more hard line against them. But I let the kids use them occasionally now - usually word problems in the difficult set I suggest that they use them, so maybe once a week. On the other hand, like a PP said, my kids have zero dependency issues with them and no expectation that they should be able to use them. Some kids, give an inch and they'll pester you about them constantly.

[...................]

Looking at the sample in link, it looks like there are many problems/exercises in a unit.

http://www.rainbowresource.com/PreAlgebra_Teachers_Sample.pdf

 

I'll let her use the calculator for 1/3 to 1/2 of the questions in a problem set after she write down the working, depending on how many there are. If there are 30 similar problems, using 20 for computation practice and letting her use the calculator for 10 isn't that bad. Especially for questions on compound interest, makes no sense to work out everything by hand for every question if it is taking your child a long time. I do believe in the law of diminishing returns whether it is for math, music or anything else.

 

How long does she spend on math now if she calculates all by hand?

I like this way of thinking. Math generall takes her an hour. However there are some days where it's closer to 75 minutes and others where it's as little as 35. Usually, it's an hour.

 

I think I'll say yes if it involves long division past the third decimal, if she does some all on her own and *if long division wasn't the point anyway* and I'll think about it for word problems.

[SparklyUnicorn]

lol, you ladies are hardcore.

 

Ds' Year 7 maths curriculum (AU) starts introducing use of the calculator for some lessons. Often there is a lesson done without and then a lesson done with. 

 

I have no idea where that fits in with your US math schedule. So far as I'm aware we don't have something called pre-algebra. We've used it for percentages, sure. 

 

I have seen this too.  I'm not crazy about it. However, I do think some books are ridiculous with the number of problems for some concepts.  I don't think anyone needs to do 20 long divisions in one sitting in 3rd grade.  That's insane.  I would not enjoy that, and I have no trouble with long division.

[MamaChicken]

Funny because my son had a alcumus problem that said he could use a calculator and he refused :). I told him to check it with a calculator then.

[Farrar]

lol, you ladies are hardcore.

 

Ds' Year 7 maths curriculum (AU) starts introducing use of the calculator for some lessons. Often there is a lesson done without and then a lesson done with. 

 

I have no idea where that fits in with your US math schedule. So far as I'm aware we don't have something called pre-algebra. We've used it for percentages, sure. 

 

Many American classrooms allow calculator usage as early as first grade these days. I think we're all just pretty wary about the undermining effects of that on fluency with math facts and algorithms.

 

Yeah, Pre-Algebra is generally about 7th grade math more or less. American schools are moving away from the term to some extent.

[Katy]

The long division keeps the multiplication facts in her head.  That's the reason for not allowing a calculator yet.  Once she starts using it, she'll forget some of her 6-9 times tables and every problem will be slower.  You'll be saving time now to make her slower later, when dealing with frustration in calculus is 95% of whether she'll succeed or not.

 

In fact, she might need a refresher of multiplication facts flashcards right now, or the long division wouldn't be so irritating.

 

That said, this is a guideline, and you should follow your intuition.  Personally I'd bring out the multiplication flashcards, shuffle the 6-9's or 6-12's, and if she knows every fact cold with no pauses to think, I'd let her have the calculator for one month, when I'd test the facts again. If not, I'd drill her with flashcards once a day for two weeks.  The answers she has down cold go in one pile (not to be asked again until the end), and you redrill the ones she has to think about until she knows them instantly.  When she knows them all, go through the whole pile again.  She'll probably get a few of them wrong again.  When she knows the facts without hesitation, you're done with the drill.  If this takes longer than 10 minutes, I'd break them up into number groups again the way you do in 3rd grade.

[JudoMom]

My oldest is in College Algebra and a graphing calculator is required.  Other than that, he used one for a handful of problems in Algebra 2 and for a handful of problems in the Principles of Engineering class he took (it was DE at the local high school).  In the engineering class, he often finished conversions in his head with accuracy more quickly than the other students could with calculators.  None of the other boys have used a calculator yet, and I have no intentions of letting them (it's not even on their radar, honestly).  Ds16 was able to use one on the PSAT this year without any trouble.

 

[Dmmetler]

When they are doing prep for standardized tests where time is of the essence. We're at Algebra 2 and have yet to need it for math proper but for the SAT/ACT, where calculators are allowed and time is tight, learning where to use one definitely reduced DD's stress level.

[Tanikit]

My child won a calculator in a Maths olympiad competition in first grade - so I let her play with it but she has never been allowed to use it for mathematics. The other day she came home from school having calculated very high digit multiplication (millions times ten thousands) without a calculator - something that one would probably not do as an adult without a calculator simply because of the time it takes, but she was proud of herself - no one feels a sense of achievement by pushing some buttons and being told the answer. And nor do they learn how much concentration and how many careless errors can occur simply by pushing buttons. Finally elementary math is mostly about learning basic math facts in arithmetic and using them to solve problems - you cannot learn the facts if someone else keeps giving you the answer. Pre-algebra they should still be learning how numbers work by playing with the patterns involved (incuding with percentages).

[RootAnn]

I'm pretty anti-calculator, but I did allow it in my Dd#1's pre-A book when they were doing checkbook balancing. (!)

 

She got really reliant on it when she took Derek Owen's physics last year and found herself using it a lot for geometry instead of using her trig identities.

 

On her own, she is trying to use her calculator less for Alg 2 and chemistry this year. It is something she now takes pride in if she does the quick calls in her head or on the side of the paper when her mom reaches for the calculator.

 

My next kid will be the type to never use her brain again, so I am putting off the introduction as long as possible (but she will get to that same checkbook section in pre-a eventually). She is one that needs the practice with math facts, struggles mightily with word problems, too. *sigh*

[EmilyGF]

DS uses Excel as his calculator for pre-algebra (and the computer is in a common area). There are times he really needs it, but because he generally works in his bedroom, he doesn't turn to the calculator for stuff he doesn't need it for. 

 

There's also the really cool calculator that I want to get him for Christmas that discourages overuse of calculator because it requires a reasonable estimate before giving an answer. And kids should really be doing that, anyways. The price is really reasonable, about $20.

 

Emily

[daijobu]

You can also just enter numbers into the google search box (or the URL field).  Anything from 35*2^4  to z=x^2-y^2  (Try it!)

[MotherGoose]

Curious...folks who are anti-calculator-- are you anti graphing calculator too? My children are too young for that, and I don't let them use calculators. But I remember having to have a graphing calculator at some point--algebra 1 maybe? I only went through algebra 2 in high school.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Curious...folks who are anti-calculator-- are you anti graphing calculator too? My children are too young for that, and I don't let them use calculators. But I remember having to have a graphing calculator at some point--algebra 1 maybe? I only went through algebra 2 in high school.

 

There were no graph specific problems requiring a calculator in any of the books I used.  They were written in a way where they could be done without one. 

 

I think it's helpful to learn the basics of graphing without a calculator.  Then I think it's fine to use a calculator.

[Arcadia]

But I remember having to have a graphing calculator at some point--algebra 1 maybe?

I'm against calculator dependency but I am not against calculators. SAT Math subject test and AP Calculus guide suggest bringing a graphing calculator. There are calculator questions in some public school algebra, recalculate and calculus textbooks. Public school kids are expected to buy a graphing calculator or use a school loaner.

[regentrude]

Curious...folks who are anti-calculator-- are you anti graphing calculator too? My children are too young for that, and I don't let them use calculators. But I remember having to have a graphing calculator at some point--algebra 1 maybe? I only went through algebra 2 in high school.

 

Yes. A student should first learn to graph a function by hand. That includes figuring about the asymptotic behavior for very large and very small argument, thinking about whether the function is monotonic or has local extrema.

There is absolutely no need for a graphing calculator in algebra 1. Any student needs to be able to graph a linear or quadratic function by hand and understand how the coefficients change the appearance of the function.

 

I am appalled by my STEM college student's inability to sketch the basic shape of a function by hand. They have taken calculus 1 when they come to my physics course, yet are unable to figure out the basic shape of a function like a/x^12-b/x^6. They don't even know where to start if they don't have a calculator.

 

ETA: unfortunately, the AP calc exam is designed to force graphing calculator use on select problems. This would be the sole reason for me to teach the use of one to my student.

My DD is majoring in physics and in her 3rd year; up to now, she has never used a graphing calculator, ever.

Edited November 22, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

 SAT Math subject test and AP Calculus guide suggest bringing a graphing calculator.

 

The AP calc exam is designed to make certain problems impossible to do without graphing calculator (stupid),but the SAT subject test can be done with a simple scientific calculator.

[kiana]

Yes. A student should first learn to graph a function by hand. That includes figuring about the asymptotic behavior for very large and very small argument, thinking about whether the function is monotonic or has local extrema.

There is absolutely no need for a graphing calculator in algebra 1. Any student needs to be able to graph a linear or quadratic function by hand and understand how the coefficients change the appearance of the function.

 

I am appalled by my STEM college student's inability to sketch the basic shape of a function by hand. They have taken calculus 1 when they come to my physics course, yet are unable to figure out the basic shape of a function like a/x^12-b/x^6. They don't even know where to start if they don't have a calculator.

 

Many of the students who enter my calculus 1 class can't even manage something like (x-3)(x-6) even when written in already factored form. 

 

sigh

[happypamama]

I allow calculator use for tedious long calculations that aren't the main point of the problem, when the student already knows how to do that calculation by hand. Like regentrude said, for long percent problems because the main point is knowing how to set up the problem, and if the student has demonstrated that he/she knows how to do the division or multiplication, I don't make them do it by hand every time. Or if the problem wants x^7 as a small part of the problem, and the child has repeatedly demonstrated that he/she knows how to do that manually, I'm okay with the calculator button for y^x. (However, I might check to see that it really is necessary to do x^7 and that there's not some shortcut or trick that the child is missing. Sometimes my son will do that with AOPS pre-algebra. He might see (x^7)/(x^4) and take it at face value, rather than remembering to condense it down to x^3 first.)

[abacus2]

My daughter uses a calculator when the math curriculum suggests it. She doesn't even want to use one on problems requiring simple arithmetic, so I am not worried about her loosing that skill. As a math teacher, there are two things I feel are valuable about calculator use. Some concepts involve very tedious calculations, and students can spend more time on the concept when relieved of the tedious calculations. Also, students who are used to math problems always coming out pretty and even think something is wrong when the problem isn't pretty. Nearly 100% of real world problems aren't pretty and even. 

[RootAnn]

Curious...folks who are anti-calculator-- are you anti graphing calculator too? My children are too young for that, and I don't let them use calculators. But I remember having to have a graphing calculator at some point--algebra 1 maybe? I only went through algebra 2 in high school.

 

Yes. I'm anti-graphing calculator except in cases where 1) the textbook/teacher/test require it, 2) you use it to check what you've already done, or 3) you need to check one little specific thing and you have already done everything else by hand.

 

My school started everyone in honors Pre-Calc with graphing calculators. There were only a couple of us who 'rented' it vs. buying it. I was the only one who didn't end up buying it when that year was over. I didn't use it at all for Calc in high school or Calc 3 & up in college. I was appalled at the lack of understanding of basic functions among the other engineering students who relied on their graphing calculators to think for them. 

 

It is often necessary to THINK about the domain & range of a function (esp. with real life problems or with story problems) and kids often will skip that step when using a graphing calculator. Of course, it is easy to skip that step when not using the calculator, too. (I'm looking at you, Foerster Alg 2 story problem about draining of a bathtub! No, the graph should not show it refilling! :laugh: )