Married men and strippers

[MotherGoose]

I would not be okay with my husband ooogling a woman who was dressed and having thoughts about her--not that everyone's eyes (including mine) don't wander, but I think you know what I mean. So I would definitely not be okay with him in a strip club. He would not be okay with me being in the male version.

[Liz CA]

I would have a serious talk with any male family member in my home who went to see a stripper.  To me it is the same as porn.  But we are fairly conservative Christians who believe that giving in to lust, outside of marriage, is wrong.

 

It is an escalated form of p0rn0graphy - or at least considered such since it involves living beings. It is often the next step from p0rn0graphy. This does not mean that anyone who has looked at p0rn will automatically go to a club next nor does it mean that anyone who finds themselves at a club is involved in other activities.

 

However, more often than not, this is the trajectory.

It would signal a problem in my marriage if it occurred here. The whole thing about men "doing these things" always comes back to self-control and choices.

[Tanaqui]

Okay, this has been bugging me a while: Ogling. One o, not two.

[Liz CA]

Okay, this has been bugging me a while: Ogling. One o, not two.

 

:lol:  It's tempting to spell it with two "o" representing a pair of o(o)gling eyes... :laugh:

 

[Crimson Wife]

The whole thing about men "doing these things" always comes back to self-control and choices.

 

What if being a responsible husband and father (earning a high enough salary and health insurance benefits to support his family and save for a rainy day) means putting up with entertaining business clients at a strip club? Is it better to be in debt up the wazoo just to be able to claim that, "oh, I would *NEVER* set foot in a place like that"?

 

I wish in the 21st century that a strip club was not considered an acceptable business outing, but it's a male-dominated industry and the women that are in it unfortunately tend to adopt a "I can be as raunchy as any of the guys" attitude a la comedienne Amy Schumer. :thumbdown:

[JustEm]

What if being a responsible husband and father (earning a high enough salary and health insurance benefits to support his family and save for a rainy day) means putting up with entertaining business clients at a strip club? Is it better to be in debt up the wazoo just to be able to claim that, "oh, I would *NEVER* set foot in a place like that"?

 

I wish in the 21st century that a strip club was not considered an acceptable business outing, but it's a male-dominated industry and the women that are in it unfortunately tend to adopt a "I can be as raunchy as any of the guys" attitude a la comedienne Amy Schumer. :thumbdown:

I still wouldn't be ok with that and would expect my significant other to find a way around that part of the business or find a new career before I could ever agree to marry him. It is not only the fact that he would be potentially getting aroused by other women, it is also the reputation of the industry as a whole being exploitative.

[mellifera33]

When I said tacky, I really meant the atmosphere at the place dh went. I wasn't calling the profession tacky per se. I think I said one of the more pro-stripper things on this thread actually. I meant it when I said I wouldn't be bothered if it was someone's thing as long as the women (or men) involved don't feel exploited and any significant others don't feel bothered by it either. My friend I mentioned who stripped short term definitely didn't feel exploited. She enjoyed the work when she did it. It was sort of artistic expression for her. I had a chance to see her dance and it was definitely interesting.

 

Now, glittery pasties on the other hand, that's tacky and nothing anyone can say will convince me otherwise!  :tongue_smilie:

 

Glittery pasties make me think burlesque, which for some reason I see as an entirely different thing than stripping. Maybe it's the intent of the audience? I'm not sure. 

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[DesertBlossom]

What if being a responsible husband and father (earning a high enough salary and health insurance benefits to support his family and save for a rainy day) means putting up with entertaining business clients at a strip club? Is it better to be in debt up the wazoo just to be able to claim that, "oh, I would *NEVER* set foot in a place like that"?

No, I don't think anyone should compromise their values for their job. Ever. And I certainly don't think the only options are debt if you don't go or prosperity if you do. Sure, it may mean some missed opportunities. But I think it says a lot about a person when they won't compromise their values to go along with the crowd.

[Scarlett]

I am 51 years old. At this stage of my life if my Dh thought he needed to go to a strip club I would probably just be done with him. I just have no patience for that kind of nonsense.

 

I have zero respect for men who go to strip clubs or parties where strippers are.

[LucyStoner]

If women want to choose to be strippers, that is their prerogative. That said, the idea that most strippers are sex positive feminists who love their jobs isn't born out in what I have seen or heard from women who worked in clubs. My maternal aunts were both strippers at different points in Florida. They were both addicts, abuse survivors and have some serious horror stories to tell.

 

The one woman owned strip club here closed. I went to school with a woman who worked there for years.. When they closed, she quit the business altogether. She had worked in other clubs and found them disgusting and heavily inclined towards cheating the dancers and pressing the dancers to break the law. There are only a handful of club owners here and no reason to assume that they run their many locations that differently.

 

We have a large issue with sex trafficking in this country. There are many women working in these clubs, in porn and prostitution whose entry to the business was anything but consensual. There's a significant overlap between women working in each of those parts of the sex industry. As such, I don't think any self respecting ethical person would line the pockets of the owners of these establishments merely for their own gratification. I don't think that this is every woman in the industry but it's not like clubs can guarantee that their club is free of it. I also will add that I know that sometimes people go because they are supposed to for work and I can't condemn them unless they are the ones demanding it still be the norm.

 

My husband and my male friends had bachelor parties that involved other activities. Most infamously, one party devolved into searching for the host's runaway cat. When the groom told me this, I must admit that I laughed and told him that he was the only person on earth I would believe that story from because he was the only person I knew unlucky enough to have his party devolve into hunting for a cat. A brew pub is more their speed. There's been laser tag, paintball and Gameworks too.

 

ETA- a little clarification.

Edited July 24, 2016 by LucyStoner

[madteaparty]

I'm just going to put it out there that I adore Dita Von Teese and she proudly calls herself a stripper.

If someone wants to take me to one of her shows, I will be dressed up and ready to go.

That said, I don't know what strip clubs look like but I doubt it's artsy burlesque. If DH chose to go, well, kind of a yucky choice, like eating at McDonalds ;)

[Roadrunner]

Hehe, we had a burlesque show in town once and the line to get in was incredible. The entire male population of the town was there. 

That said, I only know of one person who has seen the insight of an actual strip club. That was my mom. She ended up there with bunch of her guy friends one time while on a business trip. All she ever said about it was how pretty all the girls were. 

 

[StephanieZ]

What if being a responsible husband and father (earning a high enough salary and health insurance benefits to support his family and save for a rainy day) means putting up with entertaining business clients at a strip club? Is it better to be in debt up the wazoo just to be able to claim that, "oh, I would *NEVER* set foot in a place like that"?

 

I wish in the 21st century that a strip club was not considered an acceptable business outing, but it's a male-dominated industry and the women that are in it unfortunately tend to adopt a "I can be as raunchy as any of the guys" attitude a la comedienne Amy Schumer. :thumbdown:

 

I think that is really sad, and I think that I'd advise someone to think long and hard when choosing a career to avoid a career in which they will be expected/required to participate in things that are uncomfortable and/or harmful to them or their relationships. I also think that the idea of bonding professionally over sexually explicit activities seems incredibly anti-women in that field. If the sales guys are expected to take clients to strip clubs and bond over stuffing bills in a mostly-naked woman's undies, how exactly does a WOMAN sales person fit into that gang? Ugh. Gross.

 

We have choices. We can choose what professions to enter, and we can choose how to practice those professions.

 

Personally, I'd be horrified if my husband chose to work in a field that required that behavior. I wouldn't have chosen to marry someone who could do that, as it would just give me the creeps to think of him ogling women with me at home. To think of him, 50 years old, sticking bills in some 21 year old daughter/sister/mother . . . Nope, not happening. 

 

My husband is a business owner who routinely gets "schmoozed" by drug reps, distributor reps, etc . . . That's the reps' job . . . and I imagine that maybe some of those sales guys do stuff like that. However, I happen to know that not once in his 12 years of ownership has he gone to such a place . . . Gosh, he won't even go to lunch with them, lol. He helps them meet their "schmooze" quotas by signing their papers that one of his staff carry into him . . . He rarely even sees them, leaving his nearly-all-female staff to deal with them, lol. I get that the sales folks have to work hard to schmooze their clients, but I don't believe that there are many (if any?) fields where one can't find a job that doesn't require sexual conduct. 

 

I have no problem with sex work being legal; I don't think it should be illegal -- I just think it is gross and wrong. I just think it is gross, and that the men who chose to hire women to sexually stimulate (and/or satisfy) them are sad, small men. I think sex should be fun, exciting, and within the bounds of a mutually respectful and affectionate relationship. 

 

There are plenty of things in the world that I find morally or personally ugly, unattractive, or even reprehensible, but that doesn't mean I think it's my place to tell someone outside of my relationship what is OK for THEM.

 

I find the idea of a sexual interaction with a stranger repulsive. I want one and only man. I want that man to want one and only woman -- me. Thus, a married person visiting a venue to interact sexually with strangers is repulsive to me, and unacceptable in MY marriage. 

[Um_2_4]

Ok, so nothing to add (DH would never enter there, we don't go to the beach b/c bikinis, so mute point), but funny story:

DH arrived here to attend college (30+ years ago), landed in the midwest. Enrolled, started school. Now he rented an apt near campus. What he didn't know was  that it was a bad part of town (drugs, robberies, etc). But looked good to him (he had just left a refugee camp, it allll looked good and no car bombs YAY!), was cheap, and walking distance to campus. Anyways, meets the neighbors: Girl next door, pretty, typical American. (Hint she was a stripper) Now he didn't really know what that was. She said she was a dancer (he thought like broadway) talked about work and complained (remember: new to America, book English was good, but, man, he thought we Americans talk fast) about customers. He thought she was a waitress or something on the side. When he asked her where she works, it was some name he didn't recognize. Then he told why don't you quit if you don't like it, maybe you could work at the Denny's around the corner. At this point she realizes he doesn't understand where she works. So she "educates" him and offers to "demonstrate"  :lol: . He says he felt his face turn red and his ears catch fire :smilielol5:.  Their other neighbor. an older chap, who had figured out my DH was clueless, sat on the patio and laughed so hard he almost choked. 

Sadly she died 4 years later while he was working on his Masters. "Boyfriend" killed her (looking back DH thinks it might have been a pimp situation).

[madteaparty]

Nm

Edited July 24, 2016 by madteaparty

[Crimson Wife]

I still wouldn't be ok with that and would expect my significant other to find a way around that part of the business or find a new career before I could ever agree to marry him.

 

He was in the Army when we got married (which had its own set of occupational drawbacks).

 

[Crimson Wife]

No, I don't think anyone should compromise their values for their job. Ever. And I certainly don't think the only options are debt if you don't go or prosperity if you do. Sure, it may mean some missed opportunities. But I think it says a lot about a person when they won't compromise their values to go along with the crowd.

 

He had six figures' worth of student loan debt from grad school and working in financial services was the fastest way out of it. We're now debt-free aside from our mortgage and I don't think that would've been possible if he hadn't worked in finance. I'm glad he is no longer in that industry for many reasons (and the strip clubs were mainly a symptom of a toxic work culture), but it served its purpose.

[La Condessa]

What if being a responsible husband and father (earning a high enough salary and health insurance benefits to support his family and save for a rainy day) means putting up with entertaining business clients at a strip club? Is it better to be in debt up the wazoo just to be able to claim that, "oh, I would *NEVER* set foot in a place like that"?

 

I wish in the 21st century that a strip club was not considered an acceptable business outing, but it's a male-dominated industry and the women that are in it unfortunately tend to adopt a "I can be as raunchy as any of the guys" attitude a la comedienne Amy Schumer. :thumbdown:

 

Honestly, I would consider faithfulness to our marriage and our family to be a higher priority in being a responsible husband and father than providing a certain amount of money/benefits.  I would expect either that we would have to make due with what he could bring in without compromising morals, or that he would change jobs.

 

I don't want to come off as judgey, but that is actually how I would respond.  My personal moral code requires chastity before marriage and complete fidelity after, including physical, emotional, and mental fidelity.  I consider strip clubs=mental infidelity (lusting after another woman).  I would never have married my husband if his morals did not match up with mine on this.

[Rosie_0801]

 My personal moral code requires chastity before marriage and complete fidelity after, including physical, emotional, and mental fidelity.  I consider strip clubs=mental infidelity (lusting after another woman).  I would never have married my husband if his morals did not match up with mine on this.

 

Having a crush is a divorce-worthy offense?

[Liz CA]

What if being a responsible husband and father (earning a high enough salary and health insurance benefits to support his family and save for a rainy day) means putting up with entertaining business clients at a strip club? Is it better to be in debt up the wazoo just to be able to claim that, "oh, I would *NEVER* set foot in a place like that"?

 

I wish in the 21st century that a strip club was not considered an acceptable business outing, but it's a male-dominated industry and the women that are in it unfortunately tend to adopt a "I can be as raunchy as any of the guys" attitude a la comedienne Amy Schumer. :thumbdown:

 

I don't know if there is a good answer since I don't know all the circumstances. In my world, if a business partner, client , etc., suggested this, I would excuse myself for personal reasons, emphasizing that anyone else is free to go where they please. For the purpose of a business dinner, I'd choose a different setting. It would still be my choice and should be my choice as much as it is their choice to go anywhere they want. Would they respect someone less because this person lives by a set of principles? Would it reflect negatively relating to the business side of things if the host communicates his dislike for such a venue? I really see such behavior as something that some men engage in when they are out of town and feel there is a fairly low chance of being caught - but perhaps some don't even care and find nothing objectionable about it. This is their choice and prerogative. But nobody should feel railroaded into it.

 

Does your dh's boss insist he take them to clubs or does your dh feel he must comply? Can be a sticky wicket.

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Liz CA

[La Condessa]

Having a crush is a divorce-worthy offense?

No, that's not what I meant. Anyone is going to notice when they see an attractive person. But I think there's a big difference between noticing that someone's attractive and then moving on, vs. dwelling on it, seeking out that person more specifically because they are attractive, ogling, etc. And if my dh had a crush on another woman and sought her out because of it, it would feel like a betrayal, and we would have some big issues to talk through.

[marbel]

He had six figures' worth of student loan debt from grad school and working in financial services was the fastest way out of it. We're now debt-free aside from our mortgage and I don't think that would've been possible if he hadn't worked in finance. I'm glad he is no longer in that industry for many reasons (and the strip clubs were mainly a symptom of a toxic work culture), but it served its purpose.

 

I get you.

 

Long time ago I worked in sales support.  I was young, recently divorced, and broke.   We took customer out for schmoozefests and I was in some uncomfortable situations.  Not strip clubs, but bars with dancing and such.  Yeah I danced with married men who were away from their wives on a business trip. More than once one of these guys expressed his, uh, admiration for me and desire to get to know me better. 

 

I learned how to deal with it.  I could have refused to go on these events but it was part of my job.  I could have quit my job, but I was supporting myself, paying off debts after a divorce.  I needed to work, and other than those monthly or so dinners, I liked my job and was good at it.

 

Nothing we did was illegal even if some people might have considered it immoral. I don't think it's immoral for men to go out drinking without their wives, but I think dancing in a bar should be reserved for wife/significant other. (Square dancing and other group dancing events are different.)   If strip clubs had been involved I cannot honestly say what I would have done.  Maybe I would have gone and tried not to pay attention to the stage. Most likely I would have burned with shame and embarrassment.  But I cannot honestly say that I wouldn't have gone, if that meant risking my job at that time.

 

Very easy to say "oh, I would never do that" till one day you find yourself doing it and don't know how to get out of it. 

 

Just remembered something from that time - dancing with a guy who talked of nothing but how much he loved his wife, and loved dancing with her. He was very respectful, not drunk, not dancing in an icky way, just said he enjoyed dancing and missed being away from his wife that week.  Very different from most of the people we entertained.  Of course I don't know what his wife would have thought of his dancing with me.  But if he was lusting after me or anyone else, he hid it well.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by marbel

[ktgrok]

He had six figures' worth of student loan debt from grad school and working in financial services was the fastest way out of it. We're now debt-free aside from our mortgage and I don't think that would've been possible if he hadn't worked in finance. I'm glad he is no longer in that industry for many reasons (and the strip clubs were mainly a symptom of a toxic work culture), but it served its purpose.

 

I would find debt much more acceptable than strip clubs. Or, working in such a toxic and female hostile environment, actually. In fact, we DO have 100 thousand dollars of student loan debt, and if DH said he could pay it off faster but it would involve lots of trips to strip clubs in a sexually inappropriate job I'd say no way. 

[ktgrok]

Just to be clear, although I said debt was better than strip clubs, for my family, of course if it came down to being able to feed my children, that would be different. I'd strip myself if it meant saving a life or whatever. But paying off debt faster? No. 

[Carrie12345]

 

 

We have choices. We can choose what professions to enter, and we can choose how to practice those professions.

 

 

In theory, I agree.  But not every scenario can be anticipated.

 

I know, um, "someone" who has been in the same industry for a long time, starting at the very bottom and working their way up.  There was absolutely zero reason to think they'd ever have to consider what to do if a high end client had an illegal substance in their shared town car.  And, actually, that's probably simpler to avoid *partaking in*, leaving the only problem trying to figure out how you'll feed a large family if you have to tell your boss you left his biggest client on the side of the road.

[FaithManor]

A 2011 Michigan case brought against Deja Vu and several other strip club franchises - 72 clubs in all - the result was an 11.3 million dollar pay out for holding wages and ID's to force the women to keep working. Unfortunately no criminal charges were brought despite the fact that the National Sex Trafficking Alliance investigated and found trafficking had indeed taken place in multiple establishments.

 

No thanks. It is definitely a deal breaker for me. Dh would either quit his job, and we would suck it up and deal with it, or we would go our separate ways. I would not be able to work it out in my heart to stay with him knowing that some of these strippers are sex slaves.

[TravelingChris]

I don't know the composition of who goes to strip clubs.  There is at least one in my area but it is in an area of town I rarely go to-- maybe two or three times in the five years I have lived here. So I don't see who goes.

 

As for my dh, he hasn't been and doesn't go.  If he suddenly went to one, I would probably be worried about his health (like is he getting early Alzheimer's or Brain Tumor) since it would be such a change from his personality and previous behavior.  He has never attended a bachelor party and I doubt he ever will.  

 

I would think less of some man I knew who went to strip clubs in the same way I would be if I found out they were into pornography.

[skimomma]

There are none within hours of our house so this has never come up.  Plus it is not really a thing my dh or any other male I know would be interested in.  So kind of a moot point for me personally.  But in theory, no, I do not consider it adultery and aside from finding it odd and a poor use of money would not have an issue with dh going to one.  Nudity is a non-issue for me.  

 

My bigger issue is the ethics surrounding the industry, as others have brought up.  Just as we try to avoid factory farmed foods or sweat shop goods, I would also advocate for avoiding an industry with so many common abuses of workers.  However, I am close friends with a former dancer who had a very positive experience in the industry.  I think abuses vary widely from establishment to establishment. 

 

What do people here think of people who paint, sculpt, or photograph nudes as art?  Or the people who enjoy that art as consumers?  Not that I am saying strip dancing is "art," although I'm sure I could find someone who would argue that it indeed is, but some here have equated it with porn which I find a bit of a leap.  Just wondering how far that leap stretches?

[marbel]

There are none within hours of our house so this has never come up.  Plus it is not really a thing my dh or any other male I know would be interested in.  So kind of a moot point for me personally.  But in theory, no, I do not consider it adultery and aside from finding it odd and a poor use of money would not have an issue with dh going to one.  Nudity is a non-issue for me.  

 

My bigger issue is the ethics surrounding the industry, as others have brought up.  Just as we try to avoid factory farmed foods or sweat shop goods, I would also advocate for avoiding an industry with so many common abuses of workers.  However, I am close friends with a former dancer who had a very positive experience in the industry.  I think abuses vary widely from establishment to establishment. 

 

What do people here think of people who paint, sculpt, or photograph nudes as art?  Or the people who enjoy that art as consumers?  Not that I am saying strip dancing is "art," although I'm sure I could find someone who would argue that it indeed is, but some here have equated it with porn which I find a bit of a leap.  Just wondering how far that leap stretches?

 

The difference for me is the purpose of the art.  What is the purpose of a strip club?  S*xual arousal/gratification, right?  I can't think of any other purpose.  I don't think the old masters who painted or sculpted nudes were creating that art for the purpose of s*xual gratification.  Nude photos are a little more of a gray area to me.  What might not be arousing to some will be to others.  I wouldn't hang a nude on my living room wall no matter how beautiful and artistic and non-arousing I saw it, because others might not see it that way.

 

I might not consider hanging out in a strip club adultery but it would depend on why they were there.  In the case of someone in a club because of business obligations, I wouldn't see it that way.  They are probably not sitting there getting aroused by the dancers ("lusting in their hearts").  But, if a person goes for pleasure but claims it is for a business obligation, that's another thing entirely.  The motivation matters.   A lap dance would be adultery to  me.

 

ETA: there is also a big difference between nudity and a person taking off their clothing in a provocative manner.  Why does a doctor leave the room while the patient undresses for an exam?  They could use the time to chat about the medical problem.  But the act of undressing is more intimate in a way that a naked body on the exam table is not.  (Of course the body is covered at times too.)

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by marbel

[Dmmetler]

Just to be clear, although I said debt was better than strip clubs, for my family, of course if it came down to being able to feed my children, that would be different. I'd strip myself if it meant saving a life or whatever. But paying off debt faster? No.

FWIW, the strippers I knew were basically in that sort of situation-no family support, child to care for, needed money (and the work schedule allowed them to either mostly work while their child was asleep or to have time to attend school and get a degree), and had the physical assets that made stripping a viable option. Most had studied dance or been involved in sports like gymnastics or cheer, so already had flexibility and skills that they could apply in the new job. One woman told me that she actually got groped less as a dancer than she had as a waitress at a non-strip bar, and that at the club she felt safer because the bouncers would enforce the rules on no physical contact and would escort her to her car so she got home with her tips intact. She'd moved over to stripping after having her tips taken twice in the parking lot. Plus, apparently strippers made a set hourly wage plus tips-waitresses didn't. Another told me about the same thing-she had previously held a sales job under a manager who harrassed and fired her for refusing to sleep with him. As a stripper, she got the cat calls and comments, but it was under her control and she knew that it wasn't going to go farther than she wanted it to.

 

I assume that other legal sex work may have similar appeal-yeah, some parts of the job may stink, but overall, it's a job, and possibly, a better one than other options available. I imagine the worst part of it is the stigma.

[ktgrok]

Nudity is a non-issue for me.  

 

 

What do people here think of people who paint, sculpt, or photograph nudes as art?  Or the people who enjoy that art as consumers?  Not that I am saying strip dancing is "art," although I'm sure I could find someone who would argue that it indeed is, but some here have equated it with porn which I find a bit of a leap.  Just wondering how far that leap stretches?

 

I have zero issue with nudity. Nude beach or sauna? Fine. But in those instances the nudity is incidental. At a strip club, no matter how much clothing they wear or don't wear, the stripper's purpose is to incite lust in the men there. I am NOT okay with anyone trying to incite lust in my husband, other than me. I am even less okay with he idea of my husband paying a woman to turn him on. Because that is what it is. It's paying a stranger to arouse you, while you are married. No. A thousand times no. 

[flyingiguana]

How the finance industry treats women:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/sunday/how-wall-street-bro-talk-keeps-women-down.html?_r=0

 

"WHEN I was a 27-year-old bond trader at Bank of America, I went to dinner with a managing director and a high-profile client, both men, at a Brazilian all-you-can-eat meat restaurant in Manhattan. The waitress came by to see if we wanted another round of drinks. When she was out of earshot, the client said, “I’d like to bend her over the table, give her some meat.†They laughed. I forced a smile. On the way home, I fumed. I was troubled by the comment, and disgusted by the man who said it. But I was angry with myself. Why hadn’t I said anything?..."

 

Another interesting article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/education/harvard-case-study-gender-equity.html?pagewanted=all

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by flyingiguana

[MotherGoose]

Okay, this has been bugging me a while: Ogling. One o, not two.

I'm not sure I've ever been called upon to spell it :). So I pronounce it with the oo sound, do you pronounce it with a short a sound?

[JustEm]

There are none within hours of our house so this has never come up. Plus it is not really a thing my dh or any other male I know would be interested in. So kind of a moot point for me personally. But in theory, no, I do not consider it adultery and aside from finding it odd and a poor use of money would not have an issue with dh going to one. Nudity is a non-issue for me.

 

My bigger issue is the ethics surrounding the industry, as others have brought up. Just as we try to avoid factory farmed foods or sweat shop goods, I would also advocate for avoiding an industry with so many common abuses of workers. However, I am close friends with a former dancer who had a very positive experience in the industry. I think abuses vary widely from establishment to establishment.

 

What do people here think of people who paint, sculpt, or photograph nudes as art? Or the people who enjoy that art as consumers? Not that I am saying strip dancing is "art," although I'm sure I could find someone who would argue that it indeed is, but some here have equated it with porn which I find a bit of a leap. Just wondering how far that leap stretches?

Nudity is not the issue I have with stripping. It is the purpose for the nudity, which is for sexual arousal. And if my dh or myself went to pay someone to sexually arouse us there would be a problem with our marriage. Nude art is very different and I can appreciate its value.

[MamaBearTeacher]

I find that although most people responding to this thread are against married men and especially their own husbands going to strip clubs the response is not across the board negative as I have seen on WTM threads to do with pornography. To me, stripping seems worse because it is with a live human being. Is it because strip clubs have been around longer so they seem more old-fashioned?

 

I am surprised nobody came up with any statistics. The hive is usually good at that so maybe no studies have been done. I googled a tiny bit before posting this and did not find anything.

 

Thanks for sharing your views. It has helped me better articulate my own.

[ktgrok]

I find that although most people responding to this thread are against married men and especially their own husbands going to strip clubs the response is not across the board negative as I have seen on WTM threads to do with pornography. To me, stripping seems worse because it is with a live human being. Is it because strip clubs have been around longer so they seem more old-fashioned?

 

I am surprised nobody came up with any statistics. The hive is usually good at that so maybe no studies have been done. I googled a tiny bit before posting this and did not find anything.

 

Thanks for sharing your views. It has helped me better articulate my own.

 

I think maybe because it is harder to sneak? Unlikely a 12 year old is going to spend much time in a strip club versus seeing online porn. Not to mention, actual sex acts are not depicted in a strip club (as far as I know). 

 

I don't want my husband looking at porn, either. However, I don't have a problem with reading erotica, as it doesn't involve actual people and you can put your significant other in the starring role. Now,if erotica was being overused, an addiction, leaned to marital problems, etc, that would be a whole other issue. 

 

And I have no problem with nude art, and when I saw a Rick Steves episode about a co-ed nude spa, it seemed fine. I'd be fine going there with my husband, or without him if he didn't mind. 

 

For me, it's crossing over into lusting after another human being I'm not okay with. (so I suppose if Thought my husband had a fetish for nude art, I'd have different feelings about it)

[Tap]

This thread has been filled with people who say they wouldn't want their husbands to go.  I have to say though, in real life, I know lots of guys and girls, including married people who go to strip clubs on occasion.  Not by themselves, but as part of a party, a job, or for enjoyment with their significant other(s).  They are happily committed and in loving relationships.  They are ok with seeing a dancer who gets them going,.....and at the end of the night....they go home to their partner.  

 

In my coworkers and my husbands friends and coworkers.....I would guess that well over half of them are okay with strip clubs.  They either are non-issues for them, or they enjoy them. Thinking back to my coworkers in the past 8 years, I can only think of one of my coworkers who was not ok with strip clubs (ok with the idea but wouldn't go again), and one young man that had never been (and likely wouldn't due to faith).   That is 80% of my coworkers are okay with the idea. I work in healthcare and it seems like a lot of healthcare workers are a little more okay with the human body than the general population. 

 

Dh was one of 10 district managers for an international company.  As as group they would go out a few times per year.  Sometimes they would go to strip clubs as a stop on the night. There was no pressure to go to the strip club individually, because they weren't selling anything to each other, each person could make up their own minds. Since this stop was always towards the end of the night, they could easily say they were just going to go home at that point. There were a diverse group, singles, married, gay, committed etc. Only one of the men chose to not go out on these evenings.  The other 9...all went for the night, including if they ended up at a strip club.  

 

I don't think less of these people if they have seen a stripper. It is a personal choice and is legal. I refuse to admonish anyone for their personal belief on this subject. 

 

I had a few friends who stripped and they did it for the money.  They were in college and it was an easy way to make a lot of cash in a few hours. They were strong enough personalities and focused enough to stay out of the drug scene.  I know that they are one side of the equation and there are others in the industry who are in the sex trade. I am not naive on the subject, but to say that all the girls are damaged or victims is simply not true.  Those girls saw it as empowering and gave them more control over their future careers. Once it filled the purpose, they left the industry.

 

 

I just wanted to point out that this thread has a lot of strong opinions, and degrading remarks about people who may go to a strip club. I think it has tipped to the point that anyone who has the opinion that they are okay with them or that they may even enjoy them themselves, are not likely to chime in, thus making the view point of the OP seem more prevalent that it actually is across the board or IRL. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I could not care less if my husband went to a strip club.  I suppose I wouldn't care for it if he did it all the time.  Might start to wonder about that.  That said, he hasn't ever been to one.  So in part I might not care because it doesn't happen!  I do think if it makes the married spouse uncomfortable/unhappy it shouldn't be so important to the one who wants to go that they can't just refrain.  I don't think that's asking too much. 

 

I went to two bachelorette parties before being married that had strippers.  I thought it was rather stupid and boring.

 

 

[abcmommy]

I feel like crimson mom is being almost personally attacked here and I think it is really insane how much moral high ground some people claim.

 

strip clubs are not really porn.  they are not exactly brothels.  they are not akin to adultery even if you think they are bc of a verse in the bible.  When your husband or boyfriend visits a strip club for a bachelor party you don't have to walk into a women's clinic and demand STD testing.  For example.

 

I find them seedy and distasteful and agree that most often they are not filled with women who are exercising their sexual or personal agency.  They generally are not places of female empowerment.  The women are generally not "employees" which means they are denied the labor rights and protections employees enjoy.  I have nothing good to say about such clubs.

 

But some of the statements made here sound so unbelievably harsh and judgmental that I can not even with the tone of moral superiority and prudery.

 

 

I think most men and a good number of women I know (upper middle class, educated people) how been to one, but I have not and do not plan to.  

Edited July 24, 2016 by abcmommy

[SparklyUnicorn]

I feel like crimson mom is being almost personally attacked here and I think it is really insane how much moral high ground some people claim.

 

strip clubs are not really porn.  they are not exactly brothels.  they are not akin to adultery even if you think they are bc of a verse in the bible.  When your husband or boyfriend visits a strip club for a bachelor party you don't have to walk into a women's clinic and demand STD testing.  For example.

 

 

Not all bachelor parties take place in strip clubs.  You can hire private strippers.  The two parties I went to had private strippers and I know for a fact after one of them someone in the party slept with one of the strippers.  That person was not married.  My only point being it's not exactly a worry free thing.  I trust my spouse, but I can understand this making some people very uncomfortable. 

[abcmommy]

Not all bachelor parties take place in strip clubs.  You can hire private strippers.  The two parties I went to had private strippers and I know for a fact after one of them someone in the party slept with one of the strippers.  That person was not married.  My only point being it's not exactly a worry free thing.  I trust my spouse, but I can understand this making some people very uncomfortable. 

 

 

If you are uncomfortable with your SO encountering a stripper BC YOU FEAR THAT HE OR SHE WILL SLEEP WITH HER then there are issues.

 

1. good people do not accidentally sleep with a stripper (or anyone else)

2. rational emotionally healthy women who are with good people do not worry that their so will sleep with a stripper (or anyone else)

Edited July 24, 2016 by abcmommy

[SparklyUnicorn]

If you are uncomfortable with your SO encountering a stripper then there are issues.

 

1. good men do not accidentally sleep with a stripper (or anyone else)

2. rational emotionally healthy women who are with good men do not worry that their so will sleep with a stripper (or anyone else)

 

That's your opinion.  I'm assuming the "you" and "your" was not directed at me because I never said I was uncomfortable.

 

Actually this was a female sleeping with a male stripper.  Not that it makes all that much of a difference though.

 

Again, I really hope you aren't directing this at me personally because I was speaking in general terms.  I still think someone isn't messed up in the head if this bothers them.  Nobody will die if they refrain from going to strippers. If my husband was unhappy about me doing something like this I would just not do it.  I would not consider that unreasonable. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I guess the question is, what exactly is the purpose and point of a strip show?  I would assume it's to create a sexual fantasy leading men to spend money on drinking at a club and to spend money on tipping the strippers.  Doesn't really strike me as some sort of thing that's about enjoying the art of the naked body.  Pulease. 

[abcmommy]

No I was not directing that at you at all.

 

Also I want to correct myself up there. 

 

 

I would not be happy with my SO seeking out a strip club or a private audience with a stripper at all.  

 

I did not mean what I said, so I am not sure why I said "if you are unhappy with your SO encountering a stripper blah blah blah"

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

 

[waa510]

IME, it's people from a wide range of socioeconomic classes who go. They need to be able to afford the cover charge and blowing money on the experience, but that's maybe $30 per time usually. I mean, there are different types of clubs too...some are classier than others so you're gonna have a mix of people who will frequent them if you're looking at strip clubs as a whole.

 

I don't have a problem with the concept of married men going as long as long as they're respectful about it. I've seen married guys there say, "It's only a ring." And guys who are just out for a time with friends and have no intention of flirting with the strippers or having an expensive lap dance. I've seen clubs where girls get groped and treated as objects; I've seen clubs where the women call the shots and everything is done in the best possible way for an establishment of that kind. It really varies.

 

Dh and I would go occasionally with friends in college for a birthday and with single guy friends back home when off from college. Sometimes he'd go on his own with his guy friends without me. It wasn't a big deal. If Dh wanted to go out with the guys to a strip club, I wouldn't care. Anytime it's happened, it hasn't been his idea at all. Since college, it was a bachelor party surprise or an in-home birthday present from a friends' wife during a guys day. 

 

Honestly, he and I are now more opposed to supporting an industry that overall treats women poorly (not all clubs are like that though, in our experience) than the actual seeing women aspect. We've both gotten older and going to the club to dance until dawn or blowing money at the strip club aren't really our scenes anymore. We'd both much rather just get a beer at the local brewing company and get to bed by 10.  :lol:

 

[abcmommy]

I edited my prev post so it makes more sense to me.

 

 

Personally the idea of sleeping with a stranger grosses me out.  Hello diseases.

 

I think what I have gleaned about strip clubs is that its either a party where people happen to be stripping and you are sitting around and watching while chatting about the stock market???

 

or its a bunch of drunk guys hollering at a woman who is dancing sexily while removing her clothing.

 

But I also think its very public and so its not intimate and arousal... would be heightened but not urgent??

 

I dunno.

 

I have only seen it on TV and heard about it from friends, so this is my impression.  

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

IME, it's people from a wide range of socioeconomic classes who go. They need to be able to afford the cover charge and blowing money on the experience, but that's maybe $30 per time usually. I mean, there are different types of clubs too...some are classier than others so you're gonna have a mix of people who will frequent them if you're looking at strip clubs as a whole.

 

 

I actually think I'd be more upset about the wasted money than anything else.  $30 would be a dirt cheap time around here.  Some places are charging close to $10 for flipping nicer quality beer so $30 would not go far.

[ktgrok]

Again, to clarify, this has ZERO to do with being comfortable with the naked body. If my husband was say, an OB, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Or him going to an art gallery with nudes. Helping his elderly grandma shower. Heck, even ride your bike naked day, that would be fine. (although seems kind of risky from an injury point of view). 

 

It's not about nudity. It's about my husband paying another woman (or man) to sexually arouse him. 

[LucyStoner]

I feel like crimson mom is being almost personally attacked here and I think it is really insane how much moral high ground some people claim.

 

But some of the statements made here sound so unbelievably harsh and judgmental that I can not even with the tone of moral superiority and prudery.

I totally agree here but I'd probably delete the word almost.

 

Dudes, what CWs husband did to get established and pay off school debt is their business. I'm not sure what purpose is served but to display one's own belief in their moral superiority in repeatedly saying they'd prefer joblessness, debt or whatnot. I think people would do well to lay off.

 

Some roller derby teams frequently have burlesque shows as fundraisers. It fits with the punk rock ethos of derby pretty well. I don't have a problem with that but I avoided training with a smaller league which made it mandatory to participate as a dancer because it was just not within my realm of comfort.

[ktgrok]

I totally agree here but I'd probably delete the word almost.

 

Dudes, what CWs husband did to get established and pay off school debt is their business. I'm not sure what purpose is served but to display one's own belief in their moral superiority in repeatedly saying they'd prefer joblessness, debt or whatnot. I think people would do well to lay off.

 

Some roller derby teams frequently have burlesque shows as fundraisers. It fits with the punk rock ethos of derby pretty well. I don't have a problem with that but I avoided training with a smaller league which made it mandatory to participate as a dancer because it was just not within my realm of comfort.

 

I think many have said that what others do is there business. I have zero care what others do. But she also implied that it was morally superior to visit strip clubs than to have debt, and I expressed an alternate opinion. In my marriage/life/morals, debt is better than strippers. To each his own.