Shaken

[BlsdMama]

A kid I went to high school was just busted for running a drug ring.  

 

DH doesn't understand why I'm dwelling on it.    But I have to tell you - it's really bothering me.

 

Nice kid - great kid.  Athletic, but not a jock - smart, but not super academic.  He was easy to get along with, had a lot of friends.  He got married last year to a stunning young woman and had a new baby.  He got busted with drugs and money in 2014 and turned informant apparently for a little while according to the news, but then got back into the mess.  Then it was just a matter of time.  Considering the drug of choice is meth, it really doesn't look like he was using himself - that kind of thing is pretty tell-tale.

 

It's upsetting....  DH's point is that we graduated 20 years ago and people make a lot of choices in twenty years that can lead you to good places... or bad.

I get that, but really, by 18 or so, can't you kind of tell the direction people are headed?  I think it's unsettling because I look at *my* kids and see kids no different than he was - athletic, smart, likeable, not cocky or full of themselves, just easy going "good" kids.

 

We went to school at a small private school.  The community was *deeply* invested in our choices, guidance, and just cheering us on.  There was small town pride, school colors, and just a very comfortable life.  

 

I'm just so surprised.  It kind of upsets the applecart of what I knew... that good kids make good choices and bad kids make bad choices.  This was a good kid who then made an awful lot of bad choices. :(

[mamiof5]

That's really sad. I try to tell me kids often that our days are filled with choices, and we need to try our best to make good ones.

[purplejackmama]

Before I had kids I worked at a bank. One of my most favorite co workers was arrested a few years ago for embezzlement. It was hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like you, I was shocked. It rattled me. I would have never in a million years suspected him of anything. Solid guy. Great dad, active in our community. Just wow.

 

I understand your post. It's unnerving to think that sometimes you don't really know people and also that "good people" make really bad choices.

[Mergath]

People can change at any point, for many reasons. We aren't set on paths of good or bad at the outset of adulthood that we follow to our deaths, and people aren't all good or all bad. We're all capable of screwing up massively, and we're all capable of coming back from it when we do.

[BlsdMama]

Mergath, I agree. I can't help but wonder.... You have a fella that has so much to lose. He's tied in with a community, loved by someone, has a little boy. Then got a serious warning with a bit of jail time, doesn't look like he has an addiction.... What makes him not think through the consequences? Is the money that enticing? He wasn't one of those risk taking kids, the ones that would try something on a dare or wanted a lot of attention. He just didn't do outrageously stupid things.

 

And maybe there is no explaining it.... I think it's reassuring when we can reason things through and this just doesn't have it.

Edited May 9, 2016 by BlsdMama

[nobeatenpath]

I get that, but really, by 18 or so, can't you kind of tell the direction people are headed?

 

 

No, thankfully. I mean I think about where I was at 18 and where I am now ....

 

This was a good kid who then made an awful lot of bad choices.

 

 

Firstly, I think it would be better to say 'this was someone who presented as what our community considered a good kid'. You didn't see his home life. You didn't know his mind. And there are plenty of 'good kids' who are actually just keeping up appearances.

 

And also he is no longer a good kid who made bad decisions. He is an adult, who is living life like the rest of us. Are you still the person you were 20 years ago? 

[Tanaqui]

I'm just so surprised.  It kind of upsets the applecart of what I knew... that good kids make good choices and bad kids make bad choices.  This was a good kid who then made an awful lot of bad choices. :(

 

So I guess what you really learned here is that you shouldn't judge people based on their outward appearance. A man you think is "good" because they do the things that are socially acceptable where you are might be doing some really bad things. And somebody you think is "bad" might actually do a lot of good things - and either way, after 20 years, they might be totally different people.

[Joules]

Mergath, I agree. I can't help but wonder.... You have a fella that has so much to lose. He's tied in with a community, loved by someone, has a little boy. Then got a serious warning with a bit of jail time, doesn't look like he has an addiction.... 

 

I think sometimes, for dealers, the addiction is to the money, not the drugs.

[creekland]

I think sometimes, for dealers, the addiction is to the money, not the drugs.

 

From what I see, this is usually the case.

 

In this particular situation, the money was probably far more tempting the second time because those who have been to jail often have difficult times earning decent money elsewhere afterward.  They go back to what works for them.

 

Money is a huge tempting source for dealers or embezzlement or theft (in general) or many other crimes.

 

I also agree with others that 20 years is a long period of time and people most definitely can change as they "see" opportunities (or don't have them elsewhere).

[The Girls' Mom]

((Hugs))
 

There is no way of knowing what personal demons he fights.  Addiction can look very different than the typical meth-face.  Gambling, money, hoarding, porn, are all addictions.  Not to mention that not all drug addictions make you look like a meth addict.  

 

Also, I have to second what someone upthread mentioned: Once you've served jail time for something, getting back into the workforce can be extremely difficult.  And you always have that lure of "easy" money taunting you as you are struggling to find employment.  

 

And some people are just prone to making bad choices, no matter how they grew up.  Dh has a cousin that was a golden boy growing up.  A little on the wild side, but everyone loved him.  His family was super supportive.  He came from good people that did the right things while raising him.  He still became a meth addict, and it ended up killing him.  His family tried everything in their power to pull him out of that mess, and he would just sink right back in.  It's SO hard to climb out of.  

[Guest]

Blessed Mama, I do understand how it disturbs you to think, "but I don't get it! This was, by all appearances, a good person!" I have thought that. My own brother got into trouble just a few years ago and all I could say was, "Why? Why would you throw away everything?" And yes, it does worry me for my own kids; even for my nieces and nephews. For sure at some point you tend to say, at least mentally, "Well, this kid is grown and seems to have his/her head on straight; now we have little to worry about." But, as my sister and I reminded my mother when my brother got in trouble, adults are free to choose. At 30, a man's choices no longer reflect on his mother, KWIM? Doesn't make it less upsetting, but I do think it is important to fully realize that people make choices at any point and can change and even can trash everything.

[Closeacademy]

These sorts of things will shake you and always sit in the back of your head wondering what went wrong with that person.  It kind of makes you question everything you see.  And it never really goes away when the shock is really big.  At least for me it never has.  A kid I knew who was a good kid, always polite, always respectful, etc. killed his parents and there was never a good reason that came out of it.  I think he got life, it's been more than 20 years now but I still wonder at what went wrong there.  His parents loved him and cared about him and we'll never know why.

 

Same with your classmate.  You'll never know why they went down that path unless you talk to them.

[Haiku]

I get that, but really, by 18 or so, can't you kind of tell the direction people are headed?

No. Life doesn't work that way. People respond to life as it changes before them, and I don't think you can predict at 18 what life will throw at people and how they will respond.

 

You were in school with this person more than half his life ago. Eighteen years is a distinct minority of most people's lives. They will continue to grow and change for approximately four times as long over the rest of their lives.

 

You referred to this man as a "kid" and his wife as a "young woman." You seem to still be thinking of him as an adolescent, when in reality he's nearly 40.

[BlsdMama]

No. Life doesn't work that way. People respond to life as it changes before them, and I don't think you can predict at 18 what life will throw at people and how they will respond.

 

You were in school with this person more than half his life ago. Eighteen years is a distinct minority of most people's lives. They will continue to grow and change for approximately four times as long over the rest of their lives.

 

You referred to this man as a "kid" and his wife as a "young woman." You seem to still be thinking of him as an adolescent, when in reality he's nearly 40.

 

 

Weird, but that really didn't occur to me until you said it.  

[gardenmom5]

hugs.  while frequently you can tell where someone is headed by 18 - that  can completely change.  at 18,  my brother was dealing drugs. two years later, he was straight and starting 20 years in the military.

 

you can relate to the judge who had a man appear before her for a bail hearing - and realized he was the "nicest and most promising" guy in her graduating class.  when she recognized him, and said something - his entire demeanor changed and he broke down in tears.

 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I get it.  Last year, a girl I went to high school with committed a murder-suicide.  The news headlines were horrifying.  The discussions on our high school class FB page were eye opening.  This girl graduated high school with honors, scholarships, national recognition, top athletic honors, etc.  She went to a prestigious college,earned a JD, and had a high powered career in corporate law.  What no one knew was she evidently had an adult history of violence and arson that culminated in the murder-suicide.  None of us could believe how her life ended. It was not the girl we knew.

 

I think we should all stop to consider that life happens in the intervening years.  Circumstances, viewpoints, behavior, indeed most everything about a person, changes.  I am frequently surprised at how my high school classmates have turned out.   Some of those who appeared to be one the fast track to success are struggling.  Others who were troublemakers and frustrated teachers and administrators are doing well.  We can never tell the direction a person's life will take.

[pinkmint]

I can see how this would leave you shaken. 

 

I think about this stuff quite a bit, and from a Christian perspective. Why do good people sometimes do bad things? Why do bad people sometimes do good things? Why do good people sometimes have terribly hard lives? Why do bad people sometimes live charmed lives of comfort and prosperity?

 

Someone said to me once - if your kids turn out good it's nothing you did. If your kids turn out bad, it's nothing you did. I don't believe at all that's the whole story, or else we might as well not even try to make good parenting choices, but to some extent we have to believe that in the context of the God of the bible. It's by his grace that anyone makes good decisions at all. 

 

Sin and living in a fallen world is a real thing even for the kids "most likely to succeed". And maybe some things we just won't understand until we can ask God face to face. 

[NorthwestMom]

Everyone is far more complicated than we perceive on the outside. I also think that teens and young adults can be very successful at putting on a false front, a "fake it til you make it" attitude, but then as they hit their 30s and 40s the truth starts to bleed through. If their mental health, character, or coping skills are unhealthy it will show itself in their behavior and life choices. It always makes me sad to discover that someone I thought had it together was actually completely falling apart in their private life.

 

 

[BlsdMama]

Everyone is far more complicated than we perceive on the outside. I also think that teens and young adults can be very successful at putting on a false front, a "fake it til you make it" attitude, but then as they hit their 30s and 40s the truth starts to bleed through. If their mental health, character, or coping skills are unhealthy it will show itself in their behavior and life choices. It always makes me sad to discover that someone I thought had it together was actually completely falling apart in their private life.

 

 

Do you think that it is bleed through?  That they were always that person?  I don't know if that's true.

 

Hm.  

 

Maybe who we are is very fluid - it's the thoughts we choose to think, the people we choose to befriend, the lifestyle choices we sacrifice for............

I keep thinking about his wife.  But then I think - he worked at a fitness place.  Did she really think the two high dollar motorcyles, the expensive snowmobile, the toys, the clothes, all came from that?  It wouldn't be possible to hide running a major drug ring would it?  They used 200 cops, agents, and FBI to take it all down at 12 locations.  That's just crazy to me, kwim?  Or does someone just choose to see what they want to see and block the rest?

 

I just need to stop thinking about it and carry on.  So sad.  Sad for him, his family, his choices.  Glad the drug trade has been, at least temporarily, shut down in a few small towns.

[Murphy101]

I am not surprised. What I'm surprised by is that people continue to think that supposedly being smart, decent or better at sports and being popular have anything to do with being a good person. Nothing you've said about this man has anything to do with whether he had any morals or strength of character, then or now.

[lllll]

nm

Edited May 16, 2016 by _ ?^..

[Bluegoat]

I think we all have the potential to go very wrong, if the right circumstances occur.

 

And in my experience, money troubles are one of the things that can get people doing things that seem far out.  And justifying them to themselves.

 

It can start really simply.  I had a family member who got into it because she wanted a large wedding, her parents were supposed to pay for it.  But they didn't for whatever reason, and the money was spent.  She ended up stiffing several vendors and embezzling money from employers and her own cousin.  THis was a person who lived in a small, tight knit community where she was related to many people, she was thought of as a solid community member.

 

But she somehow didn't feel she could be honest about the situation she'd got into and it kept spiraling into a worse and worse situation.

[NorthwestMom]

Do you think that it is bleed through?  That they were always that person?  I don't know if that's true.

 

Hm.  

 

Maybe who we are is very fluid - it's the thoughts we choose to think, the people we choose to befriend, the lifestyle choices we sacrifice for............

I keep thinking about his wife.  But then I think - he worked at a fitness place.  Did she really think the two high dollar motorcyles, the expensive snowmobile, the toys, the clothes, all came from that?  It wouldn't be possible to hide running a major drug ring would it?  They used 200 cops, agents, and FBI to take it all down at 12 locations.  That's just crazy to me, kwim?  Or does someone just choose to see what they want to see and block the rest?

 

I just need to stop thinking about it and carry on.  So sad.  Sad for him, his family, his choices.  Glad the drug trade has been, at least temporarily, shut down in a few small towns.

 

I don't think there is just one answer to the questions. I think it's the most common that they always were that person, deep inside.  But also, I think there are definitely people with a poor core identity that undergo major changes as a response to outside influences - the chameleons among us.

 

I feel for you, OP. I have been just as upset when I found out people were not who I expected them to be. It's disconcerting to acknowledge that we did not perceive the truth of who they really were.  :grouphug:

 

 

[Guest]

Do you think that it is bleed through? That they were always that person? I don't know if that's true.

 

Hm.

 

Maybe who we are is very fluid - it's the thoughts we choose to think, the people we choose to befriend, the lifestyle choices we sacrifice for............

I keep thinking about his wife. But then I think - he worked at a fitness place. Did she really think the two high dollar motorcyles, the expensive snowmobile, the toys, the clothes, all came from that? It wouldn't be possible to hide running a major drug ring would it? They used 200 cops, agents, and FBI to take it all down at 12 locations. That's just crazy to me, kwim? Or does someone just choose to see what they want to see and block the rest?

 

I just need to stop thinking about it and carry on. So sad. Sad for him, his family, his choices. Glad the drug trade has been, at least temporarily, shut down in a few small towns.

Well, human behaviour is very complex. In some cases, I do think it is bleed through. I read a study about the role of genetic predisposition to behaviour and it was fascinating...it talked about adopted children and how their behaviour tended to "spring back" to reflect aspects of the genetic parents, even if the adoptive family had been totally the opposite.

 

But also, we are also creating our own sense of who we are. The choices we make lead in directions; the people we associate with influences our behaviour and what we do or don't find acceptable. I was just reading a bit about the role of "willpower" in our choices. It is weak to rely on willpower if you will be in a tempting situation, especially if that situation is going to present itself again and again. Each instance of being tempted chips away at your future resistance, even in unrelated categories. This is why I think it is important to put a wide margin between oneself and a path one does not want to go down. So, better to not drive near the bakery that sells the eclairs if you are trying to break an eclair-eating habit, KWIM?

 

About your last point: it could be that the wife simply didn't investigate, and may even have had a notion she wouldn't like what she found there, BUT sometimes a marriage set-up includes money or goods that pre-date the marriage and so wife doesn't concern herself with it.

[Minerva]

I can see how this would leave you shaken. 

 

I think about this stuff quite a bit, and from a Christian perspective. Why do good people sometimes do bad things? Why do bad people sometimes do good things? Why do good people sometimes have terribly hard lives? Why do bad people sometimes live charmed lives of comfort and prosperity?

 

Someone said to me once - if your kids turn out good it's nothing you did. If your kids turn out bad, it's nothing you did. I don't believe at all that's the whole story, or else we might as well not even try to make good parenting choices, but to some extent we have to believe that in the context of the God of the bible. It's by his grace that anyone makes good decisions at all. 

 

Sin and living in a fallen world is a real thing even for the kids "most likely to succeed". And maybe some things we just won't understand until we can ask God face to face. 

 

The idea that there are "good people" and "bad people" or that any one "turns out" in a black or white way seems like set up for disappointment regardless of nature, nurture or God.

[Carol in Cal.]

That would upset me, too.

 

I went to a very academic but urban high school.

 

Drugs were present but not to the extent that they were in the other local high schools.

 

At my 5th year class reunion I hung out afterwards with a really smart guy who had started to do some drugs, just a bit, nothing to hard core.  I was surprised as it didn't seem to fit him.

 

At my 10th year class reunion, he was dead.

 

I was absolutely stunned.  Not even 30.  Such a stupid waste.

[Katy]

Random thoughts...

• My dad said after shortly he left the military he realized he was either going to be a cop or a criminal. I think he attributed it to some warrior gene/alpha male/adrenaline junkie characteristics he thought he had, but he thoroughly believed all of the male cops he worked with and all the career criminals he worked with (not just addicts or minor crimes or people who felt backed into a corner or who made one time unfortunate mistakes) had the same sort of personalities.  So yeah, he would have had those tendencies as a kid, they perhaps just weren't obvious yet because...
• Men aren't really adults until sometime between age 23-25.  Half of them aren't done going through all the changes of puberty yet, half of them don't look at all like who they will look like as adults until their mid twenties because they haven't had enough testosterone yet to change their bone structure.  Half of them grow another foot after they graduate high school.
• It's not that uncommon for drug rings to go through gyms.  Yes, some are focused on health, but sometimes a combination of bodybuilders and steroids and ex-cons lead to a thriving drug business. Many men become body builders when they go to jail, and for some reason not fully understood that might have to do with stress and testosterone and nothing else to do, it seems easier for men to add a ton of muscle in jail.  When they get out, they find a gym they like.  These are not generally the yoga & pilates & step aerobic type gyms.  They are the walls of free weights & mirrors type of gyms.  Where criminals congregate, criminal activity is likely to occur.
• I heard recently that Christians frequently misinterpret Proverbs 22:6, "Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he shall not depart from it."  Apparently it doesn't mean tell them what to do.  It means catechize a child in the way he should go.  Ask him to make moral arguments for and against every issue, when he finds that reason clearly leads him to one side or another of a decision he won't change his character for emotional reasons because he will know exactly what he stands for.
• In that vein, if your kids are genuine, and are unafraid to disagree with you or debate with you, or take a different moral stance than you, I think you probably have a pretty good and reliable view of their character.  But if you are like the Duggars, and you abuse a child into pretending to be something they are clearly not, that's how you end up with someone like Josh, who told his parents what they wanted to hear but did whatever he felt entitled to do anyway.  I seriously doubt that will be the last major moral failing from that family.
• Entitlement is the root of all moral failings.  Are your kids entitled and spoiled, or are they humble, hard workers who are comfortable with earning things?  Do they cheat to get their way?

[Ravin]

A kid I went to high school was just busted for running a drug ring.  

 

DH doesn't understand why I'm dwelling on it.    But I have to tell you - it's really bothering me.

 

Nice kid - great kid.  Athletic, but not a jock - smart, but not super academic.  He was easy to get along with, had a lot of friends.  He got married last year to a stunning young woman and had a new baby.  He got busted with drugs and money in 2014 and turned informant apparently for a little while according to the news, but then got back into the mess.  Then it was just a matter of time.  Considering the drug of choice is meth, it really doesn't look like he was using himself - that kind of thing is pretty tell-tale.

 

It's upsetting....  DH's point is that we graduated 20 years ago and people make a lot of choices in twenty years that can lead you to good places... or bad.

I get that, but really, by 18 or so, can't you kind of tell the direction people are headed?  I think it's unsettling because I look at *my* kids and see kids no different than he was - athletic, smart, likeable, not cocky or full of themselves, just easy going "good" kids.

 

We went to school at a small private school.  The community was *deeply* invested in our choices, guidance, and just cheering us on.  There was small town pride, school colors, and just a very comfortable life.  

 

I'm just so surprised.  It kind of upsets the applecart of what I knew... that good kids make good choices and bad kids make bad choices.  This was a good kid who then made an awful lot of bad choices. :(

 

Meh. A couple of years ago a guy my sister dated in high school (we were all in the same graduation year, but I have no idea if he graduated; she didn't by a few months) was busted along with his wife for cooking meth in their apartment. They were found with a ridiculously large quantity of the stuff in their house.

 

He was dumb as a box of rocks in high school. I guess nothing changed.

 

As for meth use, you really can't always tell--only when someone is way far gone on it.

[Chris in VA]

People can change at any point, for many reasons. We aren't set on paths of good or bad at the outset of adulthood that we follow to our deaths, and people aren't all good or all bad. We're all capable of screwing up massively, and we're all capable of coming back from it when we do.

Amen to that.

[Mergath]

I think we all have the potential to go very wrong, if the right circumstances occur.

 

And in my experience, money troubles are one of the things that can get people doing things that seem far out.  And justifying them to themselves.

 

It can start really simply.  I had a family member who got into it because she wanted a large wedding, her parents were supposed to pay for it.  But they didn't for whatever reason, and the money was spent.  She ended up stiffing several vendors and embezzling money from employers and her own cousin.  THis was a person who lived in a small, tight knit community where she was related to many people, she was thought of as a solid community member.

 

But she somehow didn't feel she could be honest about the situation she'd got into and it kept spiraling into a worse and worse situation.

 

:iagree:  A bank in town here was robbed this morning. The picture from the security footage shows what appears to be a middle-aged housewife. I'm sure she never expected to find herself robbing a bank, but people end up in desperate situations all the time and find themselves doing things they never would have expected to do.

[TammyS]

Your sig line says that you're a Christian, so I'll just say this:  Adam and Eve were unfallen and had the perfect parent.  They still chose sin.  If their upbringing didn't prevent it, there is no earthly upbringing that is anything other than a "best hope".

[creekland]

I think we should all stop to consider that life happens in the intervening years.  Circumstances, viewpoints, behavior, indeed most everything about a person, changes.  I am frequently surprised at how my high school classmates have turned out.   Some of those who appeared to be one the fast track to success are struggling.  Others who were troublemakers and frustrated teachers and administrators are doing well.  We can never tell the direction a person's life will take.

 

My hubby was voted Most Likely to Get Shot By His Own Troops his senior year of college.  It was part of our Corps of Cadets Senior Superlatives.

 

No one ever guesses it now.  He can use it while playing Two Truths and a Lie.

 

People change as they get more life experience.  Sometimes (many times?) that change is even for the better.  Other times it isn't.  

 

Mental health issues can also be part of it for some folks, but my guess in this situation is purely the lure of the money involved.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah that is sad.  And I get it.  A cousin of mine was raped.  One of these "random guy jumps out of a bush" deals.  It was very traumatic.  Turned out the guy who did it was a classmate of mine for 6 years.  He always had behavioral issues so I wasn't super surprised, but yeah....awful.

 

 

[lauraw4321]

I get it, really. Someone who went to high school with my DH and was active in their church (although not in his grade), and well-known to their family was indicted for molesting young boys. He was a teacher and coach and youth group volunteer with his church.  I had never met this man or really heard about him, but it shook me. I asked my husband and his siblings for anything they could remember about him that might have given them some indication about his predilections. It was the first time when it really dawned on me that a child molester could be *anyone*. He had just had triplets with his wife when this was all exposed. 

 

So yes, even though we know not to judge a book by its cover, and not to assume anything, we do. And when those assumptions are blown out of the water, it shakes us.