Is SAHM/W no longer a valid life choice?

[regentrude]

It's a fact, but many people do find it weird.  I've literally been told there is something wrong with my low level of need for being around people regularly.  This was by a therapist who was a crazy extrovert.  She insisted I join 1000 things.  I told her I was not interested.  She claimed I am interested and that I just don't know it yet.  I've gotten this far, I think I do know it yet.

 

I had to learn this. I was for a while seriously concerned about my son's low level of need for interaction, because it was so diametrically opposed to my very extroverted DD's need's (she is like I am). I was worried about "socialization". Fortunately, introvert DH reassured me that DS was completely normal :-) I stopped being worried.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

This was by a therapist who was a crazy extrovert. She insisted I join 1000 things.

:lol: she is probably an energizer bunny style of extrovert.

 

Hope you manage to find a better matching therapist. Some therapists are more introvert.

[SparklyUnicorn]

And do you notice men don't really talk this way?  So, what do you do?  I work in IT.  Ah cool.  And you?  Construction....  Ah.  Do they say, "I could never do that!"  "I'd be so bored...."  And do they discuss how they wrestled with the decision to stay home with the kids verses work?  And then have to justify it depending on who they are talking to?  Why do women have to do this?  It's like we are held to some impossible standards. 

 

The rare instance I've met a SAHD...the reactions are that the guy is heroic, cool, cutting edge, modern.  When the kids show up to gymnastics dirty in mismatched clothes..."ah dad....so funny those dads".  If it is mom?  What is wrong with her?!  She can't get it together.  Neglectful....

 

 

 

I think this is one of those questions that brings out a lot of resentment in women towards each other.

 

I have been a working Mom and a SAHM (for a lot of years).  Of course I remember the most obnoxious things that women have said about this issue.  "My brain would turn to mush," and 'I didn't have child so that I could warehouse them all day."  Those kinds of things.

 

But I think most women understand that the issues are complex.  We know that our role as mothers is critical, consuming, and mostly satisfying. We also understand that it is satisfying to earn a paycheck, to know you can take care of yourself, to work in the 'world" where performance is evaluated, measured, and rewarded.  I would say most of my real life friends understand how much being a SAHM can be a blessing, and most of them also understand all the reasons why a woman might want to work.

 

I think when a working Mom says, "I would love to stay home but I can't afford it," what she is often doing is trying to say that what the SAHM is doing is good, and would actually be enjoyable, and trying to find a non-offensive way to explain not doing it.  Obviously, she does not owe any explanation at all, but I don't find that an offensive thing to say, even if it is disingenuous.  In reality she could say, 'I think letting a kid take on debt for college is a kind of failure, so I have to work."  She could just say that she thinks being a SAHM would be boring.  She could say that she is afraid of divorce and wants to know she can support herself.  But all of those things open a can of worms, and so she says something she thinks is more neutral.

 

Likewise, SAHMs say strange things too. I've heard all the comments about how particular working Moms don't need the income, just want toys, can't deal with their own children, etc etc.  I can't say for sure which side feels more judged and inspected.  I think if one looks for it, one could easily conclude that being a working Mom is not a valid life choice to a lot of people. 

 

I think the truth is that most of us don't really care about the choices others make as long as they don't impact us. We just want people to live with their choices. When I was at home, I was part of a carpool with a working mother, and she frequently implied that I should drive extra because she was working.  I finally told her, "We all make choices" and that I wasn't going to do that. Likewise, I think we expect that if a woman chooses not to work after she really could do so, she shouldn't demand that taxpayers to carry the burden of her children's student loans.  

 

But I think in the end, working and not working are valid choices.  Obviously there are millions of women who don't work after their children are in school.  Their are millions of women who work even though they have an employed partner.  And while many women are single and have to work, many are making these choices as part of a couple.  

 

[regentrude]

The assumption is the problem. Not all stay at home mums are introverts, some are extroverts who either desperately crave adult company but are doing without because they have made a choice for their family.

 

What you quote of my post was directly addressing SparklyUnicorn who has repeatedly stated that she is an introvert and does not crave that much interaction. The assumption was based on this and thus I fail to see how that is a problem.

 

I did not assume anything about all SAHMs in general.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by regentrude

[OlgaLA]

It's a fact, but many people do find it weird.  I've literally been told there is something wrong with my low level of need for being around people regularly.  This was by a therapist who was a crazy extrovert.  She insisted I join 1000 things.  I told her I was not interested.  She claimed I am interested and that I just don't know it yet.  I've gotten this far, I think I do know it yet.  My point being that yes other people do think it's weird and aren't just stating it in a matter of fact way.  A lot of things work in a way that favors extroverts and values extroverts. 

 

I realize I should not assume you mean any such thing, but plenty of people do mean it in that way. 

 

I agree. My mom recently told me, roughly translated "yeah, it's a shame your daughter inherited your weirdness,"  when I told her that two years after bringing her home, she started opening up and finally looks like a happy child. Only it sounded worse than weirdness...

[EmseB]

Well first of all, nobody actually said "you don't need ___." They said they themselves made a choice based on their own needs.

 

"Why did you major in education?"

"Because I like working with kids."

"SO, you're implying *I* don't like working with kids?!"

"No, I didn't say anything about you."

"Yeah, but you meant it. I know what you really think. You think all science majors hate children. Jerk!"

 

Why does it make you angry that some people might assume you don't hate child care / teaching? It's not like you're working on a garbage truck or scrubbing public toilets all day. There are people who do like caring for children. When I was a teen taking care of my kid sister, I absolutely loved it. What am I missing?

I would say what you're missing is the interaction you came up with is not the interaction or set of assumptions I'm talking about. It's not saying "I like this" and then thinking "therefore that means you must hate it". "It's saying, I couldn't do that because I need something more intellectually challenging". It makes a judgement about a) how intellectually challenging the job is for the person you're talking to and b) that the person you're talking to doesn't struggle at all.

 

It is not the same thing as an objectively measured physical need that has nothing to do with intellect or simulation or something being boring or whatever.

 

Also the derisive way you describe the jobs you do find inferior (cleaning toilets, garbage man) is exactly what some of us are getting at about attitudes towards sahms. So that's what you're missing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I had to learn this. I was for a while seriously concerned about my son's low level of need for interaction, because it was so diametrically opposed to my very extroverted DD's need's (she is like I am). I was worried about "socialization". Fortunately, introvert DH reassured me that DS was completely normal :-) I stopped being worried.

 

Even as an introvert who should know better, I was worried too.  Because this belief is pervasive.  I have one who is average in that department.  My older kid, very very much like me.  I kept trying to sign him up for stuff.  I kept asking don't you want to go and do XYZ?  Meet people....etc.  Finally I thought what am I doing.  Just let him figure it out for himself.  And he is doing a great job at it.  He has taken a sudden interest in riding the bus.  He gets on the bus and just rides all around.  He likes to chat up the bus driver.  He takes pictures of various buildings, and buses.  Now he is putting together a website about his adventures of riding the bus and the stuff he sees.  On Saturdays he goes and sits in a room with a few other guys who work on game programming.  I asked him if they talk.  Nope.  So they sit silently in a room doing this.  That's his thing.  The therapist told me there is something wrong with that.  She is wrong.  I of course stopped going to her because she is a closed minded idiot.  But just saying, she won't be the first person to say that.  There is nothing wrong.  He has never been happier quite frankly.

Edited March 9, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[Ausmumof3]

Now pardon my question: don't people actually need different amounts of interaction? I hear on these forums all the time that people widely differ in the amount of time they need to spend with people. The many introverts here make it very clear that they have different needs. So, why is it insulting to assume that different people have different needs and may be content in a situation in which others are not?

Or, if it is the case that you need and crave the same amount of adult interaction as, say, I, do: either you have found a way to be content with not getting enough, or you found a way to have enough. That can be a starting point for a conversation - because we could commiserate that you don't get enough either, or maybe talk that I was the inept one who could not figure out how to find the stimulating conversation and you can give me ideas.

Why is it seen as so offensive?

Sorry this was the post I meant to quote.

[Nan in Mass]

I don't remember why exactly the term SAHM was considered better than the other options, but I'm sure it had something to do with respecting the importance of what a SAHM does. So it's funny to see now how folks view it as belittling.

 

I would rather not get hung up on a name that doesn't actually tell anything about one's home or one's kids.

 

I wonder why women don't answer the "what do you do" question with what they do, e.g., "I like to garden / paint / knit" or "I'm a girl scout leader" or "right now I'm focusing on raising our kids / managing our house remodel." It would be helpful to mention a specific thing one does so that the conversation can go in that direction vs. the other person trying to think of another question that is in safe territory.

I tried that. Maybe I just happened to have bad luck the times I tried but the conversation just wound up in the same place despite my attempts to redirect it. If the person is my mother's generation or older, I say I don't work and they say that's nice and we move on the things I do do very quickly. If they are my children's generation, I explain and they ask how I feel about it and how it worked out and how we managed with one income. It is just my own generation that is a problem. : )

 

Nan

[SKL]

Yep I imagine working in accounting or law people might make similar comments. 😄 The difference is they aren't jobs that people tend to think of as low brain power jobs, whereas unfortunately there is some history of this for stay at home mums.

 

Well, I've had "low brain power" jobs too.  One of my favorite jobs was working 12-hour shifts on an assembly line in a factory.  Machine operator - nights.  I performed the same identical function 120 times per hour, 1200 times per day.  I liked it.  Most people would say that sounds horrific.  Whatever.

 

Then again, I like cleaning and teaching slow-learning children.  Maybe that's why I can't relate to feeling sensitive about what people might think of all this.  I don't have a low IQ, but I do have a high level of patience and a high tolerance for repetitive, quiet, solitary tasks.  :)

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that one of the reasons that these kinds of comments can rankle is the we are thinking people who have carefully considered the best things for our families and for ourselves, just as with homeschooling vs. public vs. private vs. unschooling or whatever.  Or just as with cosleeping.  Or breastfeeding.  Or many, many other things.  And we have piled up the arguments in each direction, and there are major sacrifices involved no matter what we pick, and we courageously and thoughtfully pick the very best thing for our situation, and do that thing, and it's just such a relief to have thought that all through and made that imperfect but as optimized as possible choice that it's hard to present it in terms that leave room for another conclusion.  Plus once we have reached these conclusions we tend to feel like they are really good ones, wonderful ones, which makes it even harder.

[SKL]

I would say what you're missing is the interaction you came up with is not the interaction or set of assumptions I'm talking about. It's not saying "I like this" and then thinking "therefore that means you must hate it". "It's saying, I couldn't do that because I need something more intellectually challenging". It makes a judgement about a) how intellectually challenging the job is for the person you're talking to and b) that the person you're talking to doesn't struggle at all.

 

It is not the same thing as an objectively measured physical need that has nothing to do with intellect or simulation or something being boring or whatever.

 

Also the derisive way you describe the jobs you do find inferior (cleaning toilets, garbage man) is exactly what some of us are getting at about attitudes towards sahms. So that's what you're missing.

 

Well I certainly never said I needed more intellectual challenge, and I don't think anyone else did either on this thread.

 

But just for argument's sake, suppose there are people who need a higher level of intellectual challenge than the SAHM occupation provides.  Do you honestly deny that there are more intellectual pursuits and that some people have a stronger need to pursue them than other people?  OK I have a brother (is that safe since he's a guy?) who is a complete nerd and can't hold a conversation about anything less complex than network design innovations.  Now suppose the challenge of the week at home is potty-training Junior.  (Look, I have a high IQ but I hardly talked about anything other than poop for months.)  I am woman enough to admit that potty training is not intellectually stimulating.  It just isn't.  If someone is going to argue with me that toddler poop is as intellectually stimulating as network design, I'm sorry.  No.  That is not a value judgment, it is a Fact.  Says the mom who had six little potties all over the place for a year.

 

[Arcadia]

And do you notice men don't really talk this way? So, what do you do? I work in IT. Ah cool. And you? Construction.

What's so funny locally is that people would ask which company hubby works for rather than what occupation he is in. After that they ask if pay is good and if there are vacancies.

 

The WAHDs tend to be left alone in the park in the late mornings while the moms gather and gossip.

[Melinda in VT]

I'm a mom with a full-time paid job, but I think I would be just as happy as a SAHM. I enjoyed the couple of years I had at home, as much as I remember them. (All but a few months were spent pregnant with twins or parenting newborn or toddler twins. A cloud of sleep deprivation hangs over those years.)

 

However, for our family, there is a lot less stress when I am employed, because I provide the financial safety net and insurance that lets DH pursue his less-traditional career, which has been his dream since he was 17.

 

It helps immensely that DH and I both work from home, and home is 7 minutes from both schools our kids attend. We split household duties pretty evenly, and we choose to keep our evenings simple.

 

It has also helped that I worked part-time (from home) for years. That reduced stress but left me open to ramping up when the time was right.

 

And it also helps that I love my job. I basically wake up every day--weekday or weekend--happy with how I'll be spending my time.

 

I can see advantages to both ways of living. I've probably even said, "I wish I could do that." It isn't that I don't realize I made a choice and I could make a different one. It's just my recognition that two paths diverged in a yellow wood, and I am still sorry I couldn't travel both.

[Tsuga]

I guess when I hear "I need more adult conversation than can be had staying home with kids." and there person knows I stay home with kids, it sure sounds like the math works out to "I need more adult conversation than you do." 

 

I think then best most polite thing to do is to just say, "It didn't/wouldn't work out for me." 

 

I definitely need more conversation than some people need but I don't think it's a reflection on my intelligence. Regentrude has posted about being an extravert and I know I am as well. In fact most of the moms posting that they "need" to work have never suggested that it's an intelligence thing. No, it always seems to me that they are talking about a certain type of intellectual extraversion. Some people are extraverts but not in the intellectual sphere of their lives.

 

I certainly wouldn't mention being an extravert in regular conversation particularly with someone I didn't know well. In THOSE conversations I say, "Isn't it nice that we have choices. Tell me more about..." But here I am having a deeper discussion and talking about reasons.

[creekland]

But HOW then is a woman who tried to stay home and could not because she needed more stimulation and more adult conversation than she had during this time  supposed to express her experience?

 

Reading more of this thread I'm pretty convinced we slip it in with politics, religion, and higher education, and only discuss it with like-minded folks.   :laugh:  No matter what we say to others, we're pretty much wrong.  Like minded folks "get it" though - and I personally think our kids have turned out just fine.  Oodles of kids at the ps where I work have turned out just fine too.  I still believe whether mom chooses to work or not does not affect what kind of parent they are.  I see ample evidence IRL.  Others can disagree if they want to.

 

My kids are better off because I opted to return to work when my youngest was 3 - mainly because my sanity leveled out to a more normal range.  I was and still get very cranky when I don't have enough outside stimulation in my life, so I opted to change that for the better for all of us.  No regrets!  My family prefers a happier mom to a SAHM.

[EmseB]

Well I certainly never said I needed more intellectual challenge, and I don't think anyone else did either on this thread.

 

But just for argument's sake, suppose there are people who need a higher level of intellectual challenge than the SAHM occupation provides. Do you honestly deny that there are more intellectual pursuits and that some people have a stronger need to pursue them than other people? OK I have a brother (is that safe since he's a guy?) who is a complete nerd and can't hold a conversation about anything less complex than network design innovations. Now suppose the challenge of the week at home is potty-training Junior. (Look, I have a high IQ but I hardly talked about anything other than poop for months.) I am woman enough to admit that potty training is not intellectually stimulating. It just isn't. If someone is going to argue with me that toddler poop is as intellectually stimulating as network design, I'm sorry. No. That is not a value judgment, it is a Fact. Says the mom who had six little potties all over the place for a year.

 

I agree there are more intellectually demanding pursuits. I'm not arguing the objectivity of that. But the fact that someone stays at home with their kids says nothing about their intellectual abilities or needs. I think reminding moms that poo is not as intellectual as rocket surgery is pretty unnecessary.

 

In any case, I think when someone says they "need" (your word above) more intellectual stimulation than potty training or whatever, they often simply mean they don't want to do it. Like tsuga said earlier, I honestly believe most of us could find a way to be content with less than our ideal fulfilling self actualizating job if we absolutely had to our found it was best for our kids. I was faced with heavy contemplation of this recently because my dh got really sick. Anyway, not relevant, but I do like to think we can all settle for less than ideal or even worse if the going gets tough.

Edited March 9, 2016 by JodiSue

[Tsuga]

LOL. And what if I said, "Yeah, homescholing isn't for just anyone. For one thing not everyone is smart enough. You know, not everyone can understand classic literature or quadratic equations." That would be kinda mean! But HEY I'm just being honest.

Needing adult conversation is nothing like knowing how to factor quadratic equations. Extraversion is a personality trait not a sign of intelligence.

 

My MIL is very smart but she runs a pre-school. I promise you she does not get her adult thinking in with the big four year olds. She just doesn't need that part of her life, the adult interaction, to happen daily. It has nothing to do with what she is capable of and everything to do with how she relates. She just enjoys watching and helping children learn. All. Day. I don't.

[EmseB]

Needing adult conversation is nothing like knowing how to factor quadratic equations. Extraversion is a personality trait not a sign of intelligence.

I think that's kinda the point.

[creekland]

My MIL is very smart but she runs a pre-school. I promise you she does not get her adult thinking in with the big four year olds. She just doesn't need that part of her life, the adult interaction, to happen daily. It has nothing to do with what she is capable of and everything to do with how she relates. She just enjoys watching and helping children learn. All. Day. I don't.

 

I admire people like that tremendously.  Ditto that with those who teach elementary and middle school.  I don't know how they do it.  I remind my own kids that they were lucky they survived those years with me...

 

My niche is with the high school kids.  Bring on quadratics and the age of reason!

 

Hubby is a civil engineer.  I often tell him I couldn't do his job and he often tells me he couldn't do mine (without seriously maiming some of the kids anyway).  Neither of us gets insulted.  It's fact.

 

I'm honestly not sure why anyone gets insulted by someone else finding and enjoying their niche or encouraging others to see if they can do the same.

[Murphy101]

Needing adult conversation is nothing like knowing how to factor quadratic equations. Extraversion is a personality trait not a sign of intelligence.

 

My MIL is very smart but she runs a pre-school. I promise you she does not get her adult thinking in with the big four year olds. She just doesn't need that part of her life, the adult interaction, to happen daily. It has nothing to do with what she is capable of and everything to do with how she relates. She just enjoys watching and helping children learn. All. Day. I don't.

But none of those comments have anything to do with being a SAHM.

 

If I need more conversation, then I go somewhere to get it. It's not like being a sahm means I'm tied to the kitchen sink.

 

If they say things like they needed more stimulation, adult conversation, or whatever...

 

That's really got nothing to do with being a SAHM. They have no clue whatsoever how much or little of that I get. For all they know, I could get more than they do at work.

 

So it does come across as derogatory.

 

Why can't they just say they like their job or really needed the money?

 

I don't really care why people work for pay or if they work for free. I just find what people do interesting in general.

 

Mostly I'm just grateful I can be home. Even if it seems like I am never actually home as much as I'd like to be.

[creekland]

Why can't they just say they like their job 

 

'Cause apparently that makes us bad moms if we are doing a job because we like it and find it personally rewarding.

 

There's more sympathy for the "need the money" group.  They can say that, though they might get chided for not making more sacrifices. 

[Arcadia]

She just enjoys watching and helping children learn. All. Day. I don't.

I am happy babysitting for free to help relatives and friends out but gladly outsource teaching my kids.

Hubby finds babysitting hard but happily does readalouds and grading work but not the teaching part.

Temperament and choices.

I am thankful that I have choices and I understand there are people with less or no choice.

 

There is a strong correlation between SAHW/M and holding a H4 visa in my area. It would be a joke for anyone to correlate SAHM/W to any form of intelligence.

[Joker]

I think all moms get slammed.

 

I've been told I'm a bad mom and role model to my dds because I choose to stay home. I heard it so often I thought I should work outside the home. So, I tried that and we were all miserable. 

 

We all really need to be more thoughtful to one another. 

[Tsuga]

I think that's kinda the point.

 

How so? Nobody is saying "SAHMs are stupid because they stay home and don't need to speak to adults."

 

Justifying the decision to work, although it's a very complex decision, by saying "I need more adult interaction", is not insulting to those who don't need it.

 

SparklyUnicorn and you among others have suggested it's rude because it's insulting. I don't see that. My neighbor needs to go for a run or she's antsy all day. That doesn't mean that I'm lazy (though I am lazy, LOL). But what she is saying is that she needs it, not that I'm worse for not needing it.

 

So why the defensiveness?

 

 

 

But none of those comments have anything to do with being a SAHM.

 

If I need more conversation, then I go somewhere to get it. It's not like being a sahm means I'm tied to the kitchen sink.

 

Your kids are better than mine. :( I can't get adult interaction when my children are around, even now.

 

I would have spent about 11 years attempting to have adult conversations doing nothing but telling children "don't climb that, please, it could fall--please don't--I SAID STOP--STOP! If you don't--Never mind, no ultimatums DON'T HEAD BUTT ME PLEASE--We are leaving, Katie's Mom I am so sorry but the kids just can't manage to behave, oh I know it's not a big deal but they need to learn to listen, you've been so kind to have us over. Yeah, we will have to try again, maybe when we can go to the--OKAY, WE ARE LEAVING NOW, do NOT touch him again--I am so, so, so sorry..."

 

That was my life every moment with my children for about 5 years. FINALLY, now that the little one is six, we can move beyond that.

 

I had to work to pay someone else so I could talk about anything other than "No, sweetheart, honey, really, there is literally only one place in this room you can't be which is on top of her head, ohmygodstop". Or are you just so incredibly loaded that on one salary you can drop $15/hr on child care? I know we aren't.

 

So perhaps "I need adult conversation" really translates into, "My children are undisciplined banshees" or "I'm not rich enough". I mean if I could just up and leave the kids... well then. That's a different question.

 

For me it was not only the money. It was literally the only way I could afford to speak to an adult.

 

And I talk to adults every day for eight hours a day. Not like, two hours a week.

 

I find it interesting that this is kind of the sticking point. "But no, no, your need to have that level of interaction is insulting." I don't get that. Some of the smartest people in history were recluses, SURELY you don't think that I think that those individuals were stupider than me because they didn't need adult interaction?

 

My own mother told me, "After staying at home for four years with you two, going to work as a waitress every night was like being at a party." 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Tsuga

[EmseB]

The need itself is not insulting.

 

As for the defensiveness, it's probably somewhat inherent in the discussion because I don't feel defensive about it.  I do think, objectively, after years of hearing that staying home with my kids was a "waste", or that someone couldn't do that because of any number of reasons that, like Murphy said are not characteristic of my life in anyway whatsoever, that it makes me tired that people continue to have these weird ideas about how I am as a person because of my job.  A lot of times when someone says, "I could never do that because I'm not x", I have to say, "I'm not either!".  A lot of that comes with homeschooling along with sahm, but I got it in some form or another before we were schooling too.

 

For all anyone knows I do need that level of interaction and I'm not getting it because I've made a different decision.  I know people for whom this is the case.  So saying to them, "oh, I couldn't do it, I needed more adult conversation" feels like a slap in the proverbial face.  And any attempt at, "yeah I was lacking in that department but then I tried xyz and so I'm doing much better with that now" is either seen as defensiveness or somehow trying to evangelize someone into my way of life.  I once told someone that I had been a bit lost, but started getting my online degree and then was asked if that didn't cut into my time being a mom too much.

 

It's not the need that it's insulting, it's a host of assumptions about someone's life and who they are as a person because of what they do for a living.  Even if they comments don't feel loaded, they absolutely can be.  And at least seem to be a comment on the other person's life, even if unintentional.

 

I keep thinking back on SKL's characterization of garbage men or scrubbing public toilets.  People, human beings, with value and worth, actually do that stuff and yet it's okay to say something like, "Well, at least you aren't doing that job!"  And I know plenty of people who feel that way about staying at home with kids.  And they have verbalized it to me in the passive form of how they need more stimulation, or more adult conversation, or something more challenging to do because they were just bored at home and they don't know how I do it!  And it in no way makes me feel defensive about my choice, but it does get tiring to hear and have to say, well, yeah, I guess my job is kinda sucky when you frame it that way, and then I'm supposed to smile and say, "But I wouldn't have it any other way!".  And because I choose this life it means I'm an endless fountain of patience, etc, etc, which is sort of a compliment, but it's not true, and it's not a qualification for the job.  It's just tiring to know what to say to all of that over weeks and months and years.

 

ETA: and a lot of this discussion came from a point of the idea of personal fulfillment as the be all end all.  And my original comments were primarily that not everyone who stays at home does it because it's their dream job.  And it sorta went from there.  But if it isn't your dream job and you're doing it to do the best thing for your family, I think it gets even more tiring to hear of all the reasons other people don't want to.  I mean, I don't go up to someone eating shrimp and tell them all the reasons I don't like shrimp, yaknow?

Edited March 9, 2016 by JodiSue

[Crimson Wife]

It's not specific to this thread but yes, working mums do often presume that if you are a permanent sahm you find the role personally fulfilling. Which is frustrating when you've made that choice, and it's not personally fulfilling but it is best for your kids.

 

I've found the prevailing attitude towards SAHM's these days is that the only women who do it are those who are unable to hack it at a "real" job and who prefer to mooch off of the hard work of their husbands. :cursing: :thumbdown:

 

Which is just as untrue a stereotype as that employed moms are selfish and don't care about what is best for their children. :cursing: :thumbdown:

[SKL]

I keep thinking back on SKL's characterization of garbage men or scrubbing public toilets.  People, human beings, with value and worth, actually do that stuff and yet it's okay to say something like, "Well, at least you aren't doing that job!"

 

You do read into things a lot.  I was trying to say that I don't understand why it's wrong to think a SAHM might *like* the job.  I mentioned two jobs that come to mind as jobs probably nobody does out of love for the job.  It's not a comment on the value of people who do these jobs.  I've cleaned public toilets and changed geriatric diapers and a few other similar things, and I'm glad there are people willing to do that, but let's be real - nobody does it for the love of human waste or garbage.  I was contrasting that with what SAHMs do, most of which people can and do enjoy.

 

I am sorry you must have heard some dumb and nasty comments, but you are reading into a lot of neutral things people are saying.  Basically it seems you come into this conversation determined to believe that anyone who isn't a SAHM looks down on SAHMs.

 

Some of the comments here make me feel like nobody is allowed to say anything at all on this whole topic.

[Tsuga]

I redacted your post, hopefully fairly.

 

The need itself is not insulting...

 

​That is nice to hear because it is frustrating to try to explain a need and be told that it's insulting. It makes it hard to further the discussion.

 

For all anyone knows I do need that level of interaction and I'm not getting it because I've made a different decision.  I know people for whom this is the case.  So saying to them, "oh, I couldn't do it, I needed more adult conversation" feels like a slap in the proverbial face.  ...

 

I do hear you there. I think that saying "I could never"--which I have said, unfortunately--is usually the wrong choice of words. And then yeah, you have to fall back on diplomatic platitudes like "well different things work for different families" because you can't contradict them outright. That makes sense to me.

 

It's not the need that it's insulting, it's a host of assumptions about someone's life and who they are as a person because of what they do for a living. ...

 

Sure, but expressing the need does not express all those assumptions. I know that having stayed at home I have far more respect for that job than when I first decided I'd stay at home. I don't know if I'd have chosen it if I'd have realized how much of it is truly WORK, versus connections and love and fuzzies. It is not fair, however, to attach all those assumptions to everything anyone says about SAHMing. 

 

And they have verbalized it to me in the passive form of how they need more stimulation, or more adult conversation, or something more challenging to do because they were just bored at home and they don't know how I do it!  And it in no way makes me feel defensive about my choice, but it does get tiring to hear and have to say, well, yeah, I guess my job is kinda sucky when you frame it that way, and then I'm supposed to smile and say, "But I wouldn't have it any other way!".  ..

 

But you're not expected to say that. I don't think they'd say that to you if they thought you faced the same opportunities and challenges. I know I would not be at all shocked if a mom said to my, "Well that is a really tough part of it for sure, but we're making it work somehow."

 

 It's just tiring to know what to say to all of that over weeks and months and years.

 

Yeah, but all women face that. Womanhood at its roots is so demonized at times... SAHM, WOHM, not a mom, a mom of many... like there are NO choices that are not political debates which is incredibly frustrating. To feel that your every move is somehow going to destroy society or something. Believe me I feel you on that. But that's not something that comes from SAHMing... it comes from being a woman. Apparently men can make no wrong choices? Honestly if they pay the child support I feel that way. It is frustrating.

 

ETA: and a lot of this discussion came from a point of the idea of personal fulfillment as the be all end all.  And my original comments were primarily that not everyone who stays at home does it because it's their dream job.  And it sorta went from there.  But if it isn't your dream job and you're doing it to do the best thing for your family, I think it gets even more tiring to hear of all the reasons other people don't want to.  I mean, I don't go up to someone eating shrimp and tell them all the reasons I don't like shrimp, yaknow?

 

That is true but I think that on this thread, at least, people have responded not to eating shrimp, but to someone holding a sign, "Can we even eat shrimp any more?" (fair question...) and another person deciding to have a public conversation about shrimp eating, "Well, you know, I just cannot even believe that anyone wouldn't WANT to eat shrimp, wouldn't love shrimp, to me why even eat dinner if you don't eat shrimp?" And you're passing by and it's a public space and you're like, "Well actually I'm not fond of shrimp, and besides, by mother has a shellfish allergy so we rarely eat it." And then the pro-shrimpers are like "Gosh, you don't have to get all down on my decisions!"

 

​That's more how I see this conversation going. I was at the park with two SAHMs this afternoon and I promise you that (a) the topic most certainly did not come up but (b) when it does, we empathize over common ground. I wouldn't even mention my own needs unless someone asked if I'd like to stay home.

 

[frogger]

And do you notice men don't really talk this way?  So, what do you do?  I work in IT.  Ah cool.  And you?  Construction....  Ah.  Do they say, "I could never do that!"  "I'd be so bored...."  And do they discuss how they wrestled with the decision to stay home with the kids verses work?  And then have to justify it depending on who they are talking to?  Why do women have to do this?  It's like we are held to some impossible standards. 

 

The rare instance I've met a SAHD...the reactions are that the guy is heroic, cool, cutting edge, modern.  When the kids show up to gymnastics dirty in mismatched clothes..."ah dad....so funny those dads".  If it is mom?  What is wrong with her?!  She can't get it together.  Neglectful....

 

 

Or "Really,hey I have this issue with my computer or door or...fill in the blank... and what do you think could be done." No judgement, no it's better or worse than what you have chosen.  Just, gee you know something I might not. Or, oh you are a SAHP and are working on your bathroom? Hey, I have a tile saw you can borrow.

 

 Maybe not all men work that way but that is what I have noticed. I see threads like this but I don't find much offensive in real life. Although my husband has been offended by a person at his work commenting on my inability to work. When he came home he had to make sure I knew he thought I contributed just as much as he did since she said, "she could never not pull her own weight." Ha.

 

I probably go around offending people left and right because I have no idea what the big deal is but then I remember I have this support, my husband mainly, but also others both family and friends who see what I do as contributing. I think it probable that many women don't have that and are more sensitive and people who are more sensitive are both going to be easily offended whether a person means to or not and more likely to lash out to make themselves feel better. For those who feel judged for what you do, I'm sorry. Make your own choice and don't compare. The person who chose opposite you is probably struggling in their own way. Everything has both costs and benefits and every family situation is different.There is a price to pay no matter what you choose and they are simply paying in a different way than you are.  You aren't required to defend your choice, nor do you have to make others defend theirs. 

[Carrie12345]

I would be interested in a possible spinoff from this. I wonder how many of us are first or second generation SAHMs or working outside the home Moms.

 

I am a first generation SAHM. My mom briefly, and begrudgingly stayed home for short periods when she was with my dad. After she left him when I was 8, she was a working full time single mom, and the way that she was doesn't do any favors for any negative stereotypes about kids in single mom households. I came home to an empty apartment and watched TV for hours. Dinner was often non-existent. I often went many days without so much as exchanging a few words with my mom (her choice... too occupied with the boyfriends). So I guess it's not hard to connect those dots. That's at least one big part of my choices with regard to this subject today.

 

I'm the first to stay home this intentionally, this long.  And that's not even really fair, because it was far from intentional at first, and I don't know what the future holds.

 

I never felt any negative feelings about my mother working until she was a single mom working multiple jobs, which is an entirely different ball of wax.  Even then, I was old enough to understand the circumstances.

 

I don't particularly want my dds (or dss) to be "career" sahps.  I don't intend to tell them that.  If they choose to and are happy with it, that's terrific, but so is anything else they choose that makes them happy.

[Bluegoat]

I think that one of the reasons the question of being a parent gets treated a little differently is that it isn't quite like a job.  I mean, if I am a pizza cook and decide for any reason to change jobs, that is really ok so long as I can still do the things I need to.  Or at least that is often our perception in the west.

 

Parenting, on the other hand, is very much one of those things we just need to do.  It really doesn't matter if we don't like certain aspects of it, we need to find a way to make it work.

 

As a result, the conversation has a slightly different direction around parenting.  It isn't just about our preference, but questions about duty are implicit.

 

Now, I think the idea that we have that we are meant to be in jobs that we are passionate about or are fulfilled by is also somewhat over-blown and mixed up for us - we work to do things that need to get done, and often the work is mundane too, or even nasty.  There are jobs out there that people find, for various reasons, exciting and fulfilling, and I would argue are meaningless and even bad for society.

 

Very often, I think, the challenge for us as individuals is to find meaning and fulfillment within the task that it set before us, rather than searching around for a task that makes those things easy.  It is really a great privilege to be in the position to do that searching and I think we need to be very careful not to assume that is something we are owed - I think it leads to quite a few problems including people who find themselves unhappy and feeling hard done by and a tendency to look down on those doing work with less status.

[Pam in CT]

Mommy Wars, oy.

 

 

re perceived judgment going both ways:

I've found the prevailing attitude towards SAHM's these days is that the only women who do it are those who are unable to hack it at a "real" job and who prefer to mooch off of the hard work of their husbands. :cursing: :thumbdown:

 

Which is just as untrue a stereotype as that employed moms are selfish and don't care about what is best for their children. :cursing: :thumbdown:

 

This, exactly.

 

And what distresses me most is that the dynamic is overwhelming by, to, between and for women.  Men certainly don't do it to men, and IME are far less likely to do it to women.  And for whatever reason women seem to "hear" perceived judgment by others a lot louder.

 

 

Having stood on both sides of the WOHM/SAHM divide over the course of my parenting years, the only way I ever found to stay mostly-sane was to make a conscious decision not to "hear" possibly-judgmental nuance about my choices when other women (sorry, IME it's overwhelmingly women) discussed their own.  Even if her words / tone / body language / context of other discussions maybe supported the possibility that in fact she maybe *did* mean or think, as in CW's examples, a subtext along the lines of, what, you can't hack a real job? Wassamatter with you? I manage!  or, on the other side,  what, you're unwilling to sacrifice your own fulfillment for the sake of your children?  Wassamatter with you?  I do it!

 

I made a conscious decision to receive such possible, subtext slights as perceived slights -- to frame them in terms of my own reception/hearing as opposed to in the sender's transmission.  Maybe I, myself, felt conflicted about the (inevitable!! always!!) tradeoffs of my decision.  Maybe I was a bit wistful about the road not taken even when I'd committed myself to it, maybe I was "hearing" a bit defensively, so that I at least some of the time heard a little bit more judgment than was there.

 

And FWIW over time it really did help *me* with the crazy-making.  I am much better at acknowledging my own (prickly/thinskinned) part in "hearing" judgment, and somewhat better at putting my fingers in my ears and going "la la la la la, doesn't affect me and mine if other people make different choices." 

 

 

But I still do get depressed when Mommy Wars erupt.  They wear us down, ladies.

[Bluegoat]

How so? Nobody is saying "SAHMs are stupid because they stay home and don't need to speak to adults."

 

Justifying the decision to work, although it's a very complex decision, by saying "I need more adult interaction", is not insulting to those who don't need it.

 

SparklyUnicorn and you among others have suggested it's rude because it's insulting. I don't see that. My neighbor needs to go for a run or she's antsy all day. That doesn't mean that I'm lazy (though I am lazy, LOL). But what she is saying is that she needs it, not that I'm worse for not needing it.

 

So why the defensiveness?

 

 

Your kids are better than mine. :( I can't get adult interaction when my children are around, even now.

 

I would have spent about 11 years attempting to have adult conversations doing nothing but telling children "don't climb that, please, it could fall--please don't--I SAID STOP--STOP! If you don't--Never mind, no ultimatums DON'T HEAD BUTT ME PLEASE--We are leaving, Katie's Mom I am so sorry but the kids just can't manage to behave, oh I know it's not a big deal but they need to learn to listen, you've been so kind to have us over. Yeah, we will have to try again, maybe when we can go to the--OKAY, WE ARE LEAVING NOW, do NOT touch him again--I am so, so, so sorry..."

 

That was my life every moment with my children for about 5 years. FINALLY, now that the little one is six, we can move beyond that.

 

I had to work to pay someone else so I could talk about anything other than "No, sweetheart, honey, really, there is literally only one place in this room you can't be which is on top of her head, ohmygodstop". Or are you just so incredibly loaded that on one salary you can drop $15/hr on child care? I know we aren't.

 

So perhaps "I need adult conversation" really translates into, "My children are undisciplined banshees" or "I'm not rich enough". I mean if I could just up and leave the kids... well then. That's a different question.

 

For me it was not only the money. It was literally the only way I could afford to speak to an adult.

 

And I talk to adults every day for eight hours a day. Not like, two hours a week.

 

I find it interesting that this is kind of the sticking point. "But no, no, your need to have that level of interaction is insulting." I don't get that. Some of the smartest people in history were recluses, SURELY you don't think that I think that those individuals were stupider than me because they didn't need adult interaction?

 

My own mother told me, "After staying at home for four years with you two, going to work as a waitress every night was like being at a party." 

 

You know I think a lot of the adult conversation aspect of the SAHP is largely an exaggeration of the adult interaction problem of society at large.  When I was working I did get more adult conversation, but in some of the jobs it was fairly restricted, and in most cases it wasn't easy, or sometimes encouraged, to really build deeper friendships.  And it's hard to have friends as adults?  How many of us live near people we are really friendly with - many many don't.

[happypamama]

I'm at least a second generation SAHM, possibly third. My mom stayed home with us, and by the time I was in eleventh grade, she started homeschooling my younger siblings. I guess she had my tenth grade year when all of us were in full day school (K was half day), but I'm sure she had plenty to do. That year, because of the strange structure of school buildings, the four of us kids were in four different school buildings, plus two of us did sports or clubs, and I wasn't driving yet, plus I had a serious boyfriend who was a twelfth grader, and they wanted to provide plenty of supervision, plus for many years, she taught preschool Bible clubs at church. I'm sure she was busy!

 

I think her mom might have stayed home with her when she was little although my grandmother went to college and then became a teacher and principal when my mom was in elementary school.

 

DH's mom stayed home with them as well, and even after they were in school, she's always been busy with keeping the house, caring for multiple aging grandparents, etc.

 

So DH and I never really even questioned what we'd do. Of course one of us would stay home to care for our babies, and since I had the ability to breastfeed and the desire to be around small children all day (I've always loved babies and toddlers and worked in daycare and as a nanny before I had my own), it made more logical sense for it to be me. So now, our youngest is almost three, and either of us could stay home/homeschool, but he's got fifteen years of experience in his field, advanced training, and seniority at his workplace. I don't have a career field to return to and have no idea what I'd enjoy doing as much as what I do now, so it doesn't make sense for us to swap places now. I personally really like being home -- I'm super introverted anyway (as is DH -- which is why he works in a small office) -- and I have no longing to do anything else.

[Jenny in Florida]

I am talking about something different entirely.  I was talking about people who grumble and complain about staying at home (see the post I referenced) or claim they simply can't do it because it's not personally fulfilling.  I acknowledge there are many other factors that go into the decision, but I wasn't talking about those things.

 

I think it's less a question of "simply can't" and more a question of "why should I?"

 

For context: At the time our daughter was born, my husband and I earned approximately equal annual salaries. He was on my health insurance, because I had gotten the job with benefits first. During my pregnancy, we each worked with our respective employers to come up with a plan that would allow each of us to work from home one or two days a week, which would have meant putting the baby in daycare with a friend of ours from church just one day each week. There was no expectation that I would become a SAHM, a situation in which I was sure I had exactly zero interest.

 

Then I had to go out on maternity leave early because of some underlying health issues that made my OB nervous about having me commuting. And the whole carefully arranged plan more or less fell apart from there. My employer decided I could work from home only one day a week, not two. Then they said, well, actually, we can't have you work from home. If you want any time out of the office, you'll have to just work part-time and take the associated pay cut. When I agreed to that, they then said, oh, but if you are working part-time, you can't stay in the creative, interesting position we created for you but will have to step down into a more boring, lower-paid position. When I sighed and agreed to that, too, they began insisting that I come back after my 12 weeks had elapsed, despite the fact that my daughter would have been only six weeks old at the time.

 

At about the same time, my husband's department underwent a major reorganization that meant he was temporarily transferred to an office that required him to commute almost two hours each way each day. And the new manager refused to honor the partial work-from-home agreement my husband had made with the previous supervisor.

 

So, with a deep breath, we decided the best option was for me to quit my job and stay home "for a while" until we could come up with an alternate plan.

 

That "for a while" ended up turning into about 18 years. And a decision born out of what was essentially a momentary panic about child care led to me finding my vocation as a homeschooling mom. Although I worked part-time on and off during my at-home years (at first doing some freelance work in my field, then taking a retail job for a few years when my husband's career hit a rough patch, then working very part-time from home when my kids became teens), I always perceived those activities as ways to earn supplementary income to help the family, not avenues to personal fulfillment. I never did learn to appreciate housework in general, but raising and educating my kids and supporting them in their interests and passions was what gave my life meaning. And nobody was more surprised than I was to find that turned out to be the case.

 

So, I absolutely get that we all have to be grown ups and do what's best for our families and actively look for fulfillment and meaning in the lives we're living. I was a SAHHM until I was made obsolete by having kids who insisted on growing up.

 

However, I don't see the virtue in a person trying to force herself to be content staying home full-time if it genuinely makes her unhappy, as long as the people who are dependent on her don't suffer because of her choices. Obviously, there's a spectrum here: I would have a hard time smiling and shrugging about a parent of either gender who decided on a whim that housework was boring and took on a career that required so much time and energy that his or her children were left bereft or neglected in any meaningful way. But lots and lots of famlies find ways to balance the needs of their children with the desires of parents who really have no interest in focusing exclusively on staying home. 

 

As I try to navigate my way back into the wider world now that I'm "retired" from homeschooling, I find myself thinking about what our lives might have looked like if we had been able to follow through with the original plan. Things would have been different, for sure, but I don't know that they would have been "worse." My kids would have had very different experiences growing up. They certainly would have had very different relationships with their two parents, because my husband would have been involved in the daily tasks of raising them in a way he wasn't with the division of labor along such traditional gender-based lines. We likely would have had more money, which would have allowed for experiences that were out of reach as a single-income family. Instead of homeschooling, they probably would have gone to good private schools, which would have been different but probably quite good for each of them in some ways. Mornings might have been more hectic, and they might have eaten less home-baked bread and cookies, but I don't think either of those things, when balanced with other factors, is the end of the world.

 

If your own spouse was stuck in a job he/she hated and found boring, wouldn't you support him/her in finding another job that made him/her happy as long as your family didn't need to sacrifice too much to make that happen? I would (and have) in a heartbeat. I wouldn't make my husband justify his choice to find a new job if the old one was was making him miserable. I wouldn't lecture him about trying to find fulfillment in a career he found personally barren. If he were the primary breadwinner, I would not, of course, be happy if he simply quit and turned our lives upside down unexpectedly. However, a thoughtful transition to a new situation that would make him happier and keep our family cared for appropriately would be, in my mind, a benefit for all of us.

 

So, I don't think it's fair or helpful to the conversation to begin from the presumtion that being a SAHM is the preferred or default setting and that anyone who says he or she would find that boring or unfulfilling is somehow selfish or spoiled. I think the more reasonable and meaningful position is that every person is an individual and that forming and nurturing a family requires finding the best way to balance the needs and desires of each member, and that balance is likely to look different for every family.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by Jenny in Florida

[creekland]

I wonder how many are teaching their kids that self-fulfillment isn't an option in first world countries...

 

We definitely don't teach ours that.  Most people I know in my circles IRL really enjoy their jobs.  Sure there are bad days or certain tasks they don't care for - that happens anywhere.  But I'll be the first to admit we'd have to be pretty bad off financially to be working at jobs we didn't like and would only be doing so until we found something we liked better - whether that's a paid job or not (volunteer/SAH).

 

Those who don't like their jobs seems to have far more "other" issues in their lives - mental and physical.

 

We only live once and I believe we all have a niche somewhere that we'd enjoy.  We may have to work to find it or get there - or sacrifice - or more education - or whatever.  Perhaps that's the difficult step?

 

At school many kids aren't quite sure what they want to do for a living.  My advice to them is the same as it was for my kids.  Figure out what you don't like and stay away from it.  See some things you do like and head in that direction keeping your eyes open for opportunities.  If you find something you really like, figure out how to get there and start taking steps.  Few jump into their final fulfilled life as there are steps to get there, but if one doesn't start down the path needed, it certainly won't happen.

 

My oldest is already out working at a job he loves.  He was eagerly showing us around a week ago.

 

Middle is on his way.

 

Youngest is honing his path.

 

Many students from school have reached theirs.  It could be farming, the military, trades, college paths, parenting, retail, local factories, or oodles of different things.

 

I honestly can't think of a single person who has told me they hate their job unless it's a temporary job while they're working to get somewhere else.  When Powerball came around, the vast majority I know said they'd keep working - maybe cut hours or adjust what they were doing in some context - but no one wanted to just "retire."

 

We live in an area where the unemployment rate is low and there's a decent variety to choose from.  That likely helps.

 

Maybe all the others hang out at the bars (places we don't go).  That's possible too.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Interesting because I thought the idea of self fulfillment is not only an option, but encouraged in our culture.  I am not saying I think this is wrong, but just that I feel as if this is true. 

 

I've never liked any job I have had.  And I still am not quite sure what it is I want to do.  Although, I think I'm in fact doing what I want to do.  It's just few consider it a viable option. 

 

 

I wonder how many are teaching their kids that self-fulfillment isn't an option in first world countries...

 

We definitely don't teach ours that.  Most people I know in my circles IRL really enjoy their jobs.  Sure there are bad days or certain tasks they don't care for - that happens anywhere.  But I'll be the first to admit we'd have to be pretty bad off financially to be working at jobs we didn't like and would only be doing so until we found something we liked better - whether that's a paid job or not (volunteer/SAH).

 

Those who don't like their jobs seems to have far more "other" issues in their lives - mental and physical.

 

We only live once and I believe we all have a niche somewhere that we'd enjoy.  We may have to work to find it or get there - or sacrifice - or more education - or whatever.  Perhaps that's the difficult step?

 

At school many kids aren't quite sure what they want to do for a living.  My advice to them is the same as it was for my kids.  Figure out what you don't like and stay away from it.  See some things you do like and head in that direction keeping your eyes open for opportunities.  If you find something you really like, figure out how to get there and start taking steps.  Few jump into their final fulfilled life as there are steps to get there, but if one doesn't start down the path needed, it certainly won't happen.

 

My oldest is already out working at a job he loves.  He was eagerly showing us around a week ago.

 

Middle is on his way.

 

Youngest is honing his path.

 

Many students from school have reached theirs.  It could be farming, the military, trades, college paths, parenting, retail, local factories, or oodles of different things.

 

I honestly can't think of a single person who has told me they hate their job unless it's a temporary job while they're working to get somewhere else.  When Powerball came around, the vast majority I know said they'd keep working - maybe cut hours or adjust what they were doing in some context - but no one wanted to just "retire."

 

We live in an area where the unemployment rate is low and there's a decent variety to choose from.  That likely helps.

 

Maybe all the others hang out at the bars (places we don't go).  That's possible too.

 

[Valley Girl]

 It would be really helpful for me to go earn like a big girl.

 

I know you didn't mean this statement the way it sounds, Quill, but ouch! I've encountered some of this feeling in real life, and it strikes me as so odd. I'm a very responsible woman even if I'm currently not in the workforce. I think mothers cannot win no matter what they choose. I prefer to assume we're all doing the best we can with our specific circumstances. I bet we all feel conflicted at time when we can't do something because job or family demands preclude it. We probably all feel the grass is greener on the other side at times. I just hate to see moms feeling they have to defend their choices from each other.

[SKL]

I think fulfillment is a nice-to-have, honestly.  I think it's beyond wonderful when someone finds it.  But I think it's well to be able to accept that we may not find it.  I'd hate to see people frustrated with a "pretty good life" just because it's not exactly "fulfilling" to them.

 

I wonder if we can teach people to feel fulfilled.  Maybe in some spiritual constructs.

I also think it depends on what season one is in.  I have had times when I felt awesome and content.  Right now is not one of those times.  Right now I have a lot of things working against each other.  Fulfillment isn't even something I think about in this season of life.

 

I think about my declining years.  I believe I'll be OK not having a life that merits a published autobiography.  I think it will be nice to just live in the moment.

 

Now if living in the moment can be equated to fulfillment, then yeah.  I have tasted it and probably will again.  Otherwise, I dunno.  I enjoy reading about people who have, though.

[pinkmint]

And yes there are negative connotations with being an introvert, believe me. Antisocial, quiet, weird, shy... Some people are very accepting and others just aren't.

 

Sigh. It is so true. Whenever there's a news piece describing a recent nutcase who went on a shooting rampage, "He was quiet..."

 

Because everyone who's quiet must be psychotic, right? Introverts do not have it easy.  

 

Yes this is a huge sidetrack. Just had to say my 2 cents. 

[SKL]

Part of it may be that I'm an introvert, and it takes a huge amount of energy for me to go out and embark on something new, especially to the extent it involves talking to other people.  I may have many creative ideas, but putting them to others' test is not my idea of a fun time.  And doing them for myself isn't "fulfilling" for me.  I can be content though.  That's fine for me.

[marbel]

I wonder how many are teaching their kids that self-fulfillment isn't an option in first world countries...

 

<snip>

 

What are you talking about?  Our (US) entire culture is based on self-fulfillment. 

 

What I've been saying is that it's not always as easy as some folks like to think it is, and for some, it is pretty close to impossible. 

[regentrude]

We definitely don't teach ours that.  Most people I know in my circles IRL really enjoy their jobs.  Sure there are bad days or certain tasks they don't care for - that happens anywhere.  But I'll be the first to admit we'd have to be pretty bad off financially to be working at jobs we didn't like and would only be doing so until we found something we liked better - whether that's a paid job or not (volunteer/SAH).

 

Same here. Our entire family and circle of friends is comprised of people who love their jobs. They'd work in their fields even if they were independently wealthy.

Of course nobody loves every single task of a job (I hate grading, for example), but we basically love what we are doing. I see these people as great role models for our kids. My main goal for their education is for them to have the option to do what they genuinely enjoy. Going to work every day with joy is one of the greatest blessings and a goal I will encourage my kids to strive for.

ETA: That does not mean it is easy. Sometimes getting to the position where you can do a job you love is very hard.

Edited March 9, 2016 by regentrude

[SparklyUnicorn]

What are you talking about?  Our (US) entire culture is based on self-fulfillment. 

 

What I've been saying is that it's not always as easy as some folks like to think it is, and for some, it is pretty close to impossible. 

 

Oh good, I'm not the only one who thinks this is the case.

 

I really do think the predominate culture in the US encourages individualism and self fulfillment more so than in other cultures.  I'm sure there is variation, but for example, I haven't met too many people who talk about concepts such as family honor or honoring one's parents or that they are contributing to the group because it is the group that is most important.  Heck some people who idealize "group" have formed communes because there isn't much sense of that within the mainstream.

 

Plenty of people do value their family, take care of their parents in old age, etc. but it doesn't seem expected.  And many seem to bristle at the idea of parents expecting their children to do what they want them to do with their own lives.  For example, I sometimes hear people say they really wanted to be a chef/cook, but that their parents didn't value that as a good career choice.  If they reject their parent's wishes and become a chef some people say hey that is correct..you are following your dreams.  It is your life and not your parent's life.  They don't generally say, you are being selfish for following your own dreams verses your parent's dreams. 

[LucyStoner]

This conversation would be a lot smoother if all would acknowledge that moms of all kinds of employment arrangements have usually heard criticism and critique.

 

Let's not fall into the folly of thinking that no one with our opinions is judgmental. A lot of what I've read is implying or explicitly saying that no one from one "side" or the other is judgemental. Now THAT is bullcrap. I've had people express criticisms when I'm working FT ("it's too bad you have to work." and my personal favorite nastygram "why even have kids if someone else is raising them.") And on the other foot, when I am staying home ("what are you going to do with you life?" "But you are so smart!"). And in the middle, while mostly home and working PT ("you must not be that committed to your marriage.")

 

None of these comment matters much and all say more about the manners of the person expressing them than they do about my family or about me. Still, they all exist and moms are pretty much damned if they do or don't by someone. So please stop claiming that those who don't share your opinion have the monopoly of being rude judgey assholes. There's more than enough of that for all perspectives.

Edited March 10, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Crimson Wife]

I wonder how many are teaching their kids that self-fulfillment isn't an option in first world countries...

 

I don't stress "self-fulfillment" with my children. I stress our responsibilities as Christians to make this world a better place. God gave us talents so that we could use them to help others. My oldest wants to be a speech & language pathologist (she's actually wanted to do that longer than I have, LOL!) and my DS wants to be an engineer to work on either prosthetics/artificial organs or robots that help those with disabilities. Of course I hope they like their jobs but I want them to do well by doing good. There are needs in the community and those with the ability to help out (either paid or volunteer) have a moral obligation to do so. Jesus didn't say, "Do whatever makes you happiest" but rather, "From those to whom much has been given, much will be required."

[SKL]

I've had jobs that were perfect for me.  Unfortunately, things change.  Leadership, economics, bla bla bla and you're back in the rat race again.

 

I don't know that I'll teach my kids they need to feel fulfilled.  Reality is hard.  Swimming upstream seems to be the norm everywhere.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This conversation would be a lot smoother if all would acknowledge that moms of all kinds of employment arrangements have usually heard criticism and critique.

 

Let's not fall into the folly of thinking that no one with our opinions is judgmental. A lot of what I've read is implying or explicitly saying that no one from one "side" or the other is judge metal. Now THAT is bullcrap. I've had people express criticisms when I'm working FT ("it's too bad you have to work." and my personal favorite nastygram "why even have kids if someone else is raising them." And on the other foot, when I am staying home ("what are you going to do with you life?" "But you are so smart!"). And in the middle, while mostly home and working PT ("you must not be that committed to your marriage.")

 

None of these comment matters much and all say more about the manners of the person expressing them than they do about my family or about me. Still, they all exist and mom's are pretty much damned if they do or don't by someone. So please stop claiming that those who don't share your opinion have the monopoly of being rude judgey assholes. There's more than enough of that for all perspectives.

 

I can only speak for myself.  I know I get upset because some of the comments remind me of the things I worry about.  Nothing we do doesn't have it's own pros and cons.  Doing one thing means you are missing out on what is positive about the other thing.  I don't like having this pointed out to me.  So then I start to feel protective of my choice or situation. 

 

But then I kind of do hope that by talking about these things it makes us more considerate and open minded because maybe we didn't know how someone else really felt in another situation.  And often it is not what we assumed. 

[SKL]

I note that "nirvana" is usually the goal of many successive lives.  It is the rare amazing person who reaches it in merely one life.  :)