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Is SAHM/W no longer a valid life choice?


Moxie
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Interesting because I thought the idea of self fulfillment is not only an option, but encouraged in our culture.  I am not saying I think this is wrong, but just that I feel as if this is true. 

 

I've never liked any job I have had.  And I still am not quite sure what it is I want to do.  Although, I think I'm in fact doing what I want to do.  It's just few consider it a viable option. 

 

I think the overwhelming cultural message is that our jobs should give us fulfillment, be our passion.

 

I am not sure what this means to all the plebs who are working in the sorts of jobs we don't want our kids to have.  Well, actually I think I do.  I think there are many people who feel they are failures for not finding a career that somehow defines them or they are passionate about.  Or just a kind of discontent around it.

 

I think many people are like you.  In my experience, the most important thing for people is to find meaning, even if the work isn't really to their tastes.  That this work is not meaningless but serves some real function.  I think even with work that is fun, iff someone comes to see it as meaningless, it can become hard for them.

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I wonder how many are teaching their kids that self-fulfillment isn't an option in first world countries...

 

We definitely don't teach ours that.  Most people I know in my circles IRL really enjoy their jobs.  Sure there are bad days or certain tasks they don't care for - that happens anywhere.  But I'll be the first to admit we'd have to be pretty bad off financially to be working at jobs we didn't like and would only be doing so until we found something we liked better - whether that's a paid job or not (volunteer/SAH).

 

Those who don't like their jobs seems to have far more "other" issues in their lives - mental and physical.

 

We only live once and I believe we all have a niche somewhere that we'd enjoy.  We may have to work to find it or get there - or sacrifice - or more education - or whatever.  Perhaps that's the difficult step?

 

At school many kids aren't quite sure what they want to do for a living.  My advice to them is the same as it was for my kids.  Figure out what you don't like and stay away from it.  See some things you do like and head in that direction keeping your eyes open for opportunities.  If you find something you really like, figure out how to get there and start taking steps.  Few jump into their final fulfilled life as there are steps to get there, but if one doesn't start down the path needed, it certainly won't happen.

 

My oldest is already out working at a job he loves.  He was eagerly showing us around a week ago.

 

Middle is on his way.

 

Youngest is honing his path.

 

Many students from school have reached theirs.  It could be farming, the military, trades, college paths, parenting, retail, local factories, or oodles of different things.

 

I honestly can't think of a single person who has told me they hate their job unless it's a temporary job while they're working to get somewhere else.  When Powerball came around, the vast majority I know said they'd keep working - maybe cut hours or adjust what they were doing in some context - but no one wanted to just "retire."

 

We live in an area where the unemployment rate is low and there's a decent variety to choose from.  That likely helps.

 

Maybe all the others hang out at the bars (places we don't go).  That's possible too.

 

Probably many don't tell them that.  I didn't suggest anything like that, that wasn't my point at all.

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There are shades of grey between "SAHM" and "WOHM" - many women are each for different seasons of their lives.

 

I stayed home when my kids were little. After four years, I started teaching part-time. As they grew older, I increased my hours. When DD went to college, I became full time.

 

Seasons.

 

ETA: When I was growing up, over 90% of mothers worked.

1. There are far more shades of gray between SAH and WOH for women who are fairly privileged. I have had those options and you have had those options. Many moms do not. Some women must return to work immediately with basically no maternity leave. Some women do not have well paid pt employment options or work in a field where PT is career suicide. Some women have spouses whose jobs essentially require a SAHP. Some women do not have spouses or the option to stay home 4 years, work PT for another decade plus and then be able to get good FT work. Some women have spouses who are disabled or earn low wages and a FT second income is non-negotiable. Don't imply that everyone has the same large set of choices and options you did.

 

2. I really find your critique of the time management skills of others very odd. You left work when your children were born and didn't opt to returns work FT until you had one in college and another teenager. Maybe you should listen to those who have juggled both parents working FT with little children BEFORE you claim that there's not a enough little tasks to fill your day or that there's no reason why someone in that situation would feel harried or chalk up their experience of being harried to them wanting to feel that way. Even for moms who love/d their careers (including me), it is not a circumstance that leads to domestic tranquility for most people I know until their kids are old enough to look after themselves some of the time. With a 1 yo and a 6yo with autism it was hellish for me, even without needing much childcare due to off shifting and extended family caregiving.

 

You want to discuss your reality. That is valid. But it seems to me that you are projecting your experiences on to others the exact same way you don't want people to project their experiences onto you. Maybe let others discuss their own realities without expressing disbelief that that could possibly be so.

Edited by LucyStoner
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1. There are far more shades of gray between SAH and WOH for women who are fairly privileged. I have had those options and you have had those options. Many moms do not. Some women must return to work immediately with basically no maternity leave. Some women do not have well paid pt employment options or work in a field where PT is career suicide. Some women have spouses whose jobs essentially require a SAHP. Some women do not have spouses or the option to stay home 4 years, work PT for another decade plus and then be able to get good FT work. Some women have spouses who are disabled or earn low wages and a FT second income is non-negotiable. Don't imply that everyone has the same large set of choices and options you did.

 

I NEVER implied anybody had the same options; I am very aware that not every woman does. My post you are quoting was responding to this question about first-generation SAHMs:

 

I wonder how many of us are first or second generation SAHMs or working outside the home Moms.

 

to which I first merely wanted to point out that things are not clear-cut as SAHM on one side and WOH on the other - because many women are either at different times in their lives. I did not make any statement about the options available to others, or the choices others should be making, so I am at a loss why you are attacking me here.

I then proceeded to answer the question about *my* experience and my family (and societal) background. I fail to see how answering the question implies anything about other women's options.

 

 

2. I really find your critique of the time management skills of others very odd. You left work when your children were born and didn't opt to returns work FT until you had one in college and another teenager. Maybe you should listen to those who have juggled both parents working FT with little children BEFORE you claim that there's not a enough little tasks to fill your day or that there's no reason why someone in that situation would feel harried or chalk up their experience of being harried to them wanting to feel that way.

 

Again, you are taking this out of context. The poster to whom I responded was a stay at home parent talking about the "little details" - which I understood to mean things related to running a home besides the big child rearing, parenting, homeschooling issues. I get that parenting can be a full time job - and that children with special challenges eat up every ounce of energy. (I have grown up with a mentally disabled sibling)

I was specifically referring to the "other" stuff - the stay-at-home-Wife-stuff, so to speak, NOT the Mothering work. And there I stand by my opinion that I (personally, I) could not fill the day with tasks related to running a home if you take the big time consuimg issues of childcare, parenting, and homeschooling out of the equation. Which, btw, is also no critique of anybody, but merely a statement that I seem to have a rather simple life. Which a parent with young children or children with special challenges or chronic medical conditions or eldercare issues obviously does not have, but I never claimed anything to the contrary.

 

Please show me where I ever claimed that full time working and parenting is easy or even presumed to voice an opinion about the stress of two FT working parents (other than saying that FT-OT working parents must be stretched very thin.) Where have I ever implied FT working parents should not feel harried or want to feel harried? Totally confused now what you are referring to.

 

ETA: Reading back through the conversation, I am now more confused than ever because my comment to which you refer in 2. was in the context of an undertone in the conversation that seemed to imply that working parents are just outsourcing everything and lacking in the home making department. My post was actually in defense of working parents who accomplish many of the "little details" while working... (whether they are harried and stressed doing that or not was not the issue)

Edited by regentrude
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'Cause apparently that makes us bad moms if we are doing a job because we like it and find it personally rewarding.

 

There's more sympathy for the "need the money" group. They can say that, though they might get chided for not making more sacrifices.

Which is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with having a job they like or deciding staying home isn't worth some of the sacrifices.

 

I guess if they told me point blank they knew being at home was the best thing their child really needed from them, but that's just too bad bc mom and dad both wants a career... Well it's not often someone admits outright they are putting themselves before what their family needs, but really if they are the kind of parent who feels that way - then by all means they should not be staying home with their kid all day. So alrighty then.

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I think saying, or implying, to a person that their job is boring is rude. I don't care if their job is to take care of kids, add up numbers, sweep floors, etc. Telling someone their job is boring is rude. 

 

Edited to Add: I have been a part time working parent, a full time working parent, and a stay at home parent. I do not go around telling working parents or stay at home parents how I feel about their job choice. 

Edited by ktgrok
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I keep coming back here because this subject is something I think about a lot. Looks like others here have lots of thoughts on it too. 

 

Is being a SAHM a valid life choice? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your definition of "valid" I guess. Is it an important endeavor? IMO very much so. Although it is fairly offensive, there is a reason for phrases such as "a face only a mother could love" (meaning that someone is considered universally unattractive with the obvious exception of the person's own mother because everyone knows what a mother's love for her child is usually like). The essence of that phrase gets to the heart of why it can be so meaningful for women to chose caring for their own children full time. I believe we are uniquely equipped to delight in things like our child's smile, for example, or put up with things like diaper changes. 

 

I know this is not nice to admit but I don't like other people's kids. They are at best tolerable but often just irritating even when well behaved. I think a lot of women feel this way too. Not that my kids can't be irritating (on the contrary) but my own kids are incredibly special, charming, beautiful etc. to me in a way that I can't logically explain. I'm glad that the person who takes care of them the most (me) is the one who is the most impressed with them. There is something to be said for that. 

 

This may not mean as much to other women and that's fine. I'm just offering my thoughts on why the SAHM pursuit is "valid".

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 Although, I think I'm in fact doing what I want to do.  It's just few consider it a viable option. 

 

I think most on here consider it a viable option and worthy of doing.

 

Which is just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with having a job they like or deciding staying home isn't worth some of the sacrifices.

 

I guess if they told me point blank they knew being at home was the best thing their child really needed from them, but that's just too bad bc mom and dad both wants a career... Well it's not often someone admits outright they are putting themselves before what their family needs, but really if they are the kind of parent who feels that way - then by all means they should not be staying home with their kid all day. So alrighty then.

 

I guess I see a different set of bad parents.  It has nothing to do with working or staying home.  It's the mom/dad who takes all the money to a bar or spends it on drugs when the fridge is empty.  It's the parent who doesn't homeschool, but also doesn't help junior get to school.  It's the parent who denies her child the paltry amount of money needed to accompany his class on a DC field trip - while she's enjoying a vacation in the Caribbean.  It's the parent who lets one child assault another - knowing it will happen.

 

There are many more example - all real.

 

Working/SAH?  Not an issue in good/bad parenting.  It's other things.

 

Meanwhile my wish is that all can find a life they find fulfilling - regardless of where that might be.

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I think saying, or implying, to a person that their job is boring is rude. I don't care if their job is to take care of kids, add up numbers, sweep floors, etc. Telling someone their job is boring is rude. 

 

Yeah it kinda is.  That may not be the intention at all.  It helps when people qualify that with "this was something that didn't work for me", but in what other situations would these comments really be ok?  If someone told me they were a computer programmer, would it be nice of me to say, "Oh that is so boring.  I tried that, but man it was just awful.  I hated every moment of it.  I couldn't wait to get the hell out of that situation."  I don't think that would be very nice.  If people are saying commenting on the SAH thing is not the same as my example, then I guess they just don't see it as a valid life choice. 

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Your kids are better than mine. :( I can't get adult interaction when my children are around, even now.

 

I would have spent about 11 years attempting to have adult conversations doing nothing but telling children "don't climb that, please, it could fall--please don't--I SAID STOP--STOP! If you don't--Never mind, no ultimatums DON'T HEAD BUTT ME PLEASE--We are leaving, Katie's Mom I am so sorry but the kids just can't manage to behave, oh I know it's not a big deal but they need to learn to listen, you've been so kind to have us over. Yeah, we will have to try again, maybe when we can go to the--OKAY, WE ARE LEAVING NOW, do NOT touch him again--I am so, so, so sorry..."

 

That was my life every moment with my children for about 5 years. FINALLY, now that the little one is six, we can move beyond that.

 

I had to work to pay someone else so I could talk about anything other than "No, sweetheart, honey, really, there is literally only one place in this room you can't be which is on top of her head, ohmygodstop". Or are you just so incredibly loaded that on one salary you can drop $15/hr on child care? I know we aren't.

 

So perhaps "I need adult conversation" really translates into, "My children are undisciplined banshees" or "I'm not rich enough". I mean if I could just up and leave the kids... well then. That's a different question.

 

For me it was not only the money. It was literally the only way I could afford to speak to an adult.

 

And I talk to adults every day for eight hours a day. Not like, two hours a week.

 

I find it interesting that this is kind of the sticking point. "But no, no, your need to have that level of interaction is insulting." I don't get that. Some of the smartest people in history were recluses, SURELY you don't think that I think that those individuals were stupider than me because they didn't need adult interaction?

 

My own mother told me, "After staying at home for four years with you two, going to work as a waitress every night was like being at a party."

No, my kids aren't any better than anyone else's. Well, most people's.

 

I came to a decision early in my parenting. If I wanted to do something and I needed to bring my kids, people said I shouldn't and to get over it if I felt isolated bc "it would only be a couple years".

 

At one point I had 5 children under the age of 6 and although I didn't know I'd have 5 more (and probably would have gotten a bit tipsy at the idea lol) I did know that obviously for me, this was not going to be a short 2-3 year phase of my life.

 

So Dh and I made the decision that I'd live as normal a life as possible with kids in tow. We didn't have money and dh worked and or traveled for work a lot so bowing to the notion that I couldn't do anything bc I had little ones would have quite literally meant I had 21 YEARS of isolation. To heck with that crazy plan. I decided for my sanity that I needed to bring my kids everywhere. And yes, I was very strict with them. Or at least that's how I remember it from my older more sedate position now. Yes, we sometimes left places early and I had to plan well and organize even better, but I did it. I really didn't have a choice. Even if I had wanted to work outside the home, there was no job that would have covered the childcare expenses.

 

And no, my olders are not built in babysitters. Because I did my job with them, they now have their own jobs and their own college classes and social life. Sure they help out in a major pinch, but mostly they aren't home very much. Which is how it should be imnsho.

 

So instead of dismissing me as well I must have had it easier then, which you don't know at all - why not just say the only thing you can be certain is the truth?

 

You didn't want to stay home bc you didn't like it and it didn't work for your family. So you didn't stay home.

 

That's fine.

 

Glad you found what you and your family needed.

 

Me too.

 

Yay for everyone!

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I also think there is a big spectrum of "work outside the home", including a 6 week old in daycare 8-12 hours a day, a preschooler who stays with Grandma part time, a school aged child who goes to an after school dance camp, etc etc etc. 

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I think most on here consider it a viable option and worthy of doing.

 

 

I guess I see a different set of bad parents. It has nothing to do with working or staying home. It's the mom/dad who takes all the money to a bar or spends it on drugs when the fridge is empty. It's the parent who doesn't homeschool, but also doesn't help junior get to school. It's the parent who denies her child the paltry amount of money needed to accompany his class on a DC field trip - while she's enjoying a vacation in the Caribbean. It's the parent who lets one child assault another - knowing it will happen.

 

There are many more example - all real.

 

Working/SAH? Not an issue in good/bad parenting. It's other things.

 

Meanwhile my wish is that all can find a life they find fulfilling - regardless of where that might be.

You'll note I didn't call any parent in my scenario a bad parent.

Because I wouldn't think that.

 

Also, well yeah booze addict parent letting her kid go hungry so she can get a hit is pretty bad parenting. But I'd like to hope most of us have higher bars for our parenting than just avoiding being the worst.

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I also think there is a big spectrum of "work outside the home", including a 6 week old in daycare 8-12 hours a day, a preschooler who stays with Grandma part time, a school aged child who goes to an after school dance camp, etc etc etc. 

 

Are we getting back into judgment territory?

 

My kids lived in foster care for their first year, and I still think they are gonna be OK.  Yes, all those options are different, but the parent is still the best person to decide whether one is a better choice than another.

 

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I just wonder why we feel so guilty.  I do feel guilty.  I went to college and got a degree and now I do nothing with it that earns money.  On top of that my husband is paying on my student loans.  I also feel guilty that my sons see their mother being old fashioned, and I hope they don't expect that all women should choose this path. 

 

When I worked I felt guilty that my baby rarely saw me.  I felt guilty that I had to spend the little extra time I had doing the dumb little things that need to be done leaving me almost no time for much else (cleaning, cooking, etc.)  I felt as if I was putting my own desires before the needs of my child.  

 

I'm not saying any of these things are in fact true (that one should feel guilty about them or that they are wrong), but I do feel that way and have felt that way.  And I really do not know why I feel that way.  Well I know one reason.  My mother believed staying home was the better thing to do.  She said so many times.  I don't agree with her, but I can't shake that thought either.  If someone repeats something enough times, you might start to believe it.  I kinda wish she had not done that.  She didn't know anything else though.

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Are we getting back into judgment territory?

 

My kids lived in foster care for their first year, and I still think they are gonna be OK.  Yes, all those options are different, but the parent is still the best person to decide whether one is a better choice than another.

 

 

I don't know if a lot of people think that way though.  I think the decisions of parents are often looked down on.  Especially if they decide to do something that is too far off the path a large number of people follow. 

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I don't know if a lot of people think that way though.  I think the decisions of parents are often looked down on.  Especially if they decide to do something that is too far off the path a large number of people follow. 

 

There are always going to be judgmental people, but I don't have to care what they think.  :)

 

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There are always going to be judgmental people, but I don't have to care what they think.  :)

 

 

No of course not.  But some people take it further.  They don't just look down on it.  They attempt to prevent you from being allowed to make certain choices.  Sometimes that's probably a good thing, but not always. 

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Are we getting back into judgment territory?

 

My kids lived in foster care for their first year, and I still think they are gonna be OK.  Yes, all those options are different, but the parent is still the best person to decide whether one is a better choice than another.

 

I did not read her post as being judgmental. The way I read it, she just pointed out that sorting people in the two categories SAHM vs WOH ignores the many different shades of grey that exist in this continuum of options and that families are very different beyond this simple label.

 

ETA: of maybe it was meant differently and  I just missed the judgment part... anything is possible, since apparently anything anybody says on this thread is being misconstrued by somebody else.

Edited by regentrude
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I did not read her post as being judgmental. The way I read it, she just pointed out that sorting people in the two categories SAHM vs WOH ignores the many different shades of grey that exist in this continuum of options and that families are very different beyond this simple label.

 

ETA: of maybe it was meant differently and  I just missed the judgment part... anything is possible, since apparently anything anybody says on this thread is being misconstrued by somebody else.

 

 

This is the way this topic always goes.  No news there.

 

Everyone gets shirty and feels they have to defend themselves.   Okay.  Whatever.  This parenting thing is not a competition unless you make it one. 

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Right.  I just wanted to point out that saying "well as long as you __ it's not so bad" is just as judgmental as "your kids deserve better."

 

I get this all the time.  "Well, you're a single mom, you have no choice, you're fine, you're awesome, I just don't know how you do it!"  Which means if you had a choice, we'd be judging you.  We forgive you for harming your kids since you can't help it.

 

Whatever.

 

Just didn't want to go down that path again.

 

There are no shades of gray IMO regarding who is in the best position to decide what works for a family.

Edited by SKL
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Are we getting back into judgment territory?

 

My kids lived in foster care for their first year, and I still think they are gonna be OK.  Yes, all those options are different, but the parent is still the best person to decide whether one is a better choice than another.

 

 

Not judging anything, I was responding to the original post about working versus not working, and saying well, there are a lot of options when it comes to working. I was mainly saying that because I've had lots of experiences working...everything from 12 hour days plus commute where my partner stayed home, to single parent working full time often 10 hour days, to part time and home when he got home from school, to now working at home very part time. I don't judge myself for any of those time periods, so I am certainly not judging others. Just saying that for the point of discussion there aren't just two very different options, but a spectrum of options. 

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I did not read her post as being judgmental. The way I read it, she just pointed out that sorting people in the two categories SAHM vs WOH ignores the many different shades of grey that exist in this continuum of options and that families are very different beyond this simple label.

 

ETA: of maybe it was meant differently and  I just missed the judgment part... anything is possible, since apparently anything anybody says on this thread is being misconstrued by somebody else.

 

Nope, that's how I meant it :)

 

Although SKL says her kids were in foster care for the first few years. I certainly could imagine judging someone putting their bio kids into foster care for grins, but I don't know that that has ever happened, and I'm certain that isn't what she meant, so nope, still not judging. Unless she's saying she adopted two kids out of foster care, in which case yes, I'm judging...I'm judging that as a pretty awesome thing to do. 

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Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

I think the OP was talking about remaining a SAHM after all kids are in b&m school full-time.  So a pretty narrow scenario.  But yes, the thread has discussed other options.

 

I like seeing how many of us have the experience of several points on that spectrum.  To me that proves that society hasn't declared the options invalid.  It proves how humans can approach things like this in a fluid, mentally flexible, mutually respectful manner.

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Well speaking about the OP (sorry OP to speak about you...LOL), she has 5 kids and they are young.  I think at this point working would be difficult for a variety of reasons.  Daycare costs would be staggering.  Burn out would be likely. 

 

I have known of people who managed it, but they either did so because they absolutely had no choice and needed the money (and frankly they often were/are not pulling it off very well), or they have plenty of money and support.  Or a lot of flexibility with their job.  When I started at the insurance company I was in training classes with other new hires.  There was one woman who told me she was a single parent of 8 children.  She ended up getting fired after a couple of months because she was late a lot.  I felt bad for her and I thought it was rather crappy of the company because she did a good job.  It is just probably very hard to manage to get out the door on time every day with 8 kids.  Companies often do not care about your family situation.  And there isn't much protection in place.

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You know I think a lot of the adult conversation aspect of the SAHP is largely an exaggeration of the adult interaction problem of society at large.  When I was working I did get more adult conversation, but in some of the jobs it was fairly restricted, and in most cases it wasn't easy, or sometimes encouraged, to really build deeper friendships.  And it's hard to have friends as adults?  How many of us live near people we are really friendly with - many many don't.

 

I agree with that. I have always made an effort to get out and see other moms. But because of my kids it has to be in really specific circumstances, like at a park with clear boundaries, where they can go insane and be monkeys and I can talk and mostly see them most of the time (at least younger). When I had a good "park group" it was awesome. When I didn't, I went nuts.

 

In my job I get to have a lot of adult conversations. Just, once an hour, you go get a glass of water and ask people how they are doing and they don't scream and fall in a heap or ask you for screen time. To me... that is so amazing. I love it. I understand that we all want that, but really, I did not have the resources to SAH much longer. I just want to talk to someone who doesn't view me as an emotional cash machine.

 

I guess rather than "adult interaction" what I really needed was  non-abusive interaction.

 

 

 

Unless she's saying she adopted two kids out of foster care, in which case yes, I'm judging...I'm judging that as a pretty awesome thing to do. 

 

Her kids are adopted.

Edited by Tsuga
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I think non-homeschooling SAHMs may not feel the need/pressure to justify their choice. I know many SAHM with kids in B&M schools from preschool. When people ask them why they aren't working, a simple "Not interested" or "Hubby prefer I stay home and chauffeur our kids for all the afterschool activities" works.

 

Homeschooling was not the reason for them to stay home so whatever income that was given up was not for homeschooling.

 

I had stay home before kids working whenever I feel like it. None of my friends think of me staying home as a result of homeschooling. They think of me more as an afterschooler mom whose kids "afterschool" classes are spread from 9am-6pm instead of 3-8pm

 

This thread probably got heated up because the majority of the SAHMs responding are staying home to homeschool.

 

I think the OP was talking about remaining a SAHM after all kids are in b&m school full-time. So a pretty narrow scenario.

I thought so too.

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None of these comment matters much and all say more about the manners of the person expressing them than they do about my family or about me.

I agree.

 

Those comments might also say that the person is simple struggling with the cost of their decision and is jealous of the other person. We all want the benefits of both worlds and often struggle with missing out on whatever benefits the other side has. They may be attempting to rationalize what they have or what they have given up to themselves more than to you.

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You'll note I didn't call any parent in my scenario a bad parent.

Because I wouldn't think that.

 

Also, well yeah booze addict parent letting her kid go hungry so she can get a hit is pretty bad parenting. But I'd like to hope most of us have higher bars for our parenting than just avoiding being the worst.

 

I honestly don't think anyone on the Hive is a bad parent.  Bad parents aren't on the net on homeschooling forums trying to figure out what is best for their kids.

 

Fortunately in life (in developed countries) MOST kids turn out just fine regardless of parenting style.  I suspect that's why true bad parenting sticks out so much.  Those kids have a lot to overcome to try to make it in this world.

 

Of course there are some kids from perfectly fine parents who don't end up ok.  I feel sorry for those parents.  They often end up blaming themselves and constantly wonder "what if???"  But it's rarely their fault - at all.  It's just difficult for them to see that.

 

There are also some kids from bad parents who succeed too.  They always have my admiration.

 

I just wonder why we feel so guilty.  I do feel guilty.  I went to college and got a degree and now I do nothing with it that earns money.  On top of that my husband is paying on my student loans.  I also feel guilty that my sons see their mother being old fashioned, and I hope they don't expect that all women should choose this path. 

 

When I worked I felt guilty that my baby rarely saw me.  I felt guilty that I had to spend the little extra time I had doing the dumb little things that need to be done leaving me almost no time for much else (cleaning, cooking, etc.)  I felt as if I was putting my own desires before the needs of my child.  

 

I'm not saying any of these things are in fact true (that one should feel guilty about them or that they are wrong), but I do feel that way and have felt that way.  And I really do not know why I feel that way.  Well I know one reason.  My mother believed staying home was the better thing to do.  She said so many times.  I don't agree with her, but I can't shake that thought either.  If someone repeats something enough times, you might start to believe it.  I kinda wish she had not done that.  She didn't know anything else though.

 

I suspect guilt is something we all feel at some point or another.  Every single time kids at school ask me why I don't go full time I feel guilty and wonder if I really should be doing more for others than I do.  I feel guilty when "real" teachers confide in me that their students like me (my style) better than their own.  (I WISH students wouldn't tell teachers that!!!)  I know I have a talent with teens and getting info across to them.  I try to teach others and others will watch what I do, but some of it really is just being able to relate and think on the spot.  So if I have this talent and don't use it FT, how many students am I letting down?  That gets to me...

 

And on days when I get home and find hubby or the boys didn't do chores the way they should have been done (critter feeding or similar) or when things pile up in our house, I feel guilty spending so much time at school and leaving all of that to them.

 

We all have to choose a path.  This means there are paths we don't take too and there is good along pretty much any path that fits us.

 

When I feel guilty I remind myself how much good I am doing along the path I'm taking.  I see more kids by subbing than I do if I were teaching FT.  I can reach more and interact with more.  I can fill in gaps.  I can help more around the house too.  And I can keep my own sanity by the flexibility to travel.  None of that will stop the guilt the next time something comes up, but it's what I do to help myself realize I can't do everything for everyone.

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Same here. It's pretty disappointing.

 

Same person, different title. Huge difference in the amount of social approval I receive.

Well beats what I get when I took/take a class.

 

"Omg, what's the point if you're just going to have kids?"

 

😒

 

Riiight. Because I suppose only the ignorant should have children or provide their primary care?

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Well beats what I get when I took/take a class.

"Omg, what's the point if you're just going to have kids?"

😒

Riiight. Because I suppose only the ignorant should have children or provide their primary care?

 

Speechless. Somebody actually SAID that to you????

 

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Speechless. Somebody actually SAID that to you????

 

Yep. Several people over the years. It's not unusual.

 

I have friends with degrees, even doctorates, who get versions of the same thing for staying home. "What a waste to get all that education just to stay home and have kids?"

 

No, learning something is always of value, even if we never make a dime off the knowledge.

 

And of course again, should only the ignorant have children or give their primary care?

 

But I have learned this perspective is very much in the minority in society.

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Yep. Several people over the years. It's not unusual.

 

I have friends with degrees, even doctorates, who get versions of the same thing for staying home. "What a waste to get all that education just to stay home and have kids?"

 

No, learning something is always of value, even if we never make a dime off the knowledge.

 

And of course again, should only the ignorant have children or give their primary care?

 

But I have learned this perspective is very much in the minority in society.

 

Yes it is of value.  I'm baffled why many people seem to think it is weird.  Pretty much the only reason I don't take more classes is the cost. 

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Yep. Several people over the years. It's not unusual.

 

I have friends with degrees, even doctorates, who get versions of the same thing for staying home. "What a waste to get all that education just to stay home and have kids?"

 

No, learning something is always of value, even if we never make a dime off the knowledge.

 

And of course again, should only the ignorant have children or give their primary care?

 

But I have learned this perspective is very much in the minority in society.

This is a problem I see across the board in my area where education is only valued for its earning power - ie the paying job - and not for the sake of learning something. Education in and of itself around here has no intrinsic worth.

 

Steams me. Really steams me.

 

Education is really not a priority in my area so the concept of an adult who would want to go back to school to improve an old skill or learn a new one is just crazy to them unless it means getting a pay raise.

 

I have been on the receiving end of such sentiments as I have slowly worked towards my master's degree.

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I agree.

 

Those comments might also say that the person is simple struggling with the cost of their decision and is jealous of the other person. We all want the benefits of both worlds and often struggle with missing out on whatever benefits the other side has. They may be attempting to rationalize what they have or what they have given up to themselves more than to you.

 

I don't think it's jealousy.  I don't think it's fair to someone else to boil their comments or objections down to sour grapes.  Maybe it's true in some cases, but it's awfully dismissive of an entire conversation.

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It's not even just about going to college.

 

I've had people ask me about my knitting and why I do it. Um. Because I enjoy it and find it interesting and satisfying?

 

But do you sell your finished object? Do you make money off it?

 

No. And given the ecomonic state of textiles in America right now, I probably never will.

 

Then why do you waste time making that stuff if you can just go buy something cheaper at wackomart?

 

*sigh*. Just no where polite to begin responding so I usually just smile at them in my best dumb blonde imitation of just being too confused to understand them.

Edited by Murphy101
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No, learning something is always of value, even if we never make a dime off the knowledge.

 

AMEN!

 

This is the first thing kids in my classes learn.  We aren't learning just to pass a test and move on.  We're learning to increase our knowledge of our world - the larger world.  If they never use the information again, so be it.  Knowing it improves their brain and that can never be taken from them (aside from illness/accident/disease).  We all know ignorant older folks. Kids/adults often make fun of them (whether they should or not is a different topic).  Who wants to grow up to become one?  Absolutely no one.

 

Learn for the pure sake of being educated.  An educated populace is always a plus.  Anything else that comes from it is a bonus.

 

I don't see college as job training.  Jobs might come from a college degree, but college is not job training.  Ditto that for K-12.

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It's not even just about going to college.

I've had people ask me about my knitting and why I do it. Um. Because I enjoy it and find it interesting and satisfying?

But do you sell your finished object? Do you make money off it?

No. And given the ecomonic state of textiles in America right now, I probably never will.

Then why do you waste time making that stuff if you can just go buy something cheaper at wackomart?

 

That is just bizarre.

 

I mean, in some sense I can understand that people weigh the (high) cost of college classes against a tangible economic benefit (I myself am still a firm believe in the value of education per se)... but knitting??? What do these people in their spare time? Do they only do stuff that brings in money?

 

ETA: I have  friend who is  a prolific fabric artist - knits, spins, weaves. When she is on the go she always knits socks. But selling? Nobody would be willing to pay an appropriate price for those socks that compensates her even remotely for the time spent. She makes them because she enjoys it and gives them to grateful family and very special friends.

Edited by regentrude
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I don't think it's jealousy. I don't think it's fair to someone else to boil their comments or objections down to sour grapes. Maybe it's true in some cases, but it's awfully dismissive of an entire conversation.

I don't think that it is always jealousy. That said, when people feel the need to criticize the work and domestic arrangements of others there is most often a degree of insecurity about their own situation. I don't need to criticize if someone works out of the home more or less than me because I am mostly secure in the knowledge that what I am doing is best at this season of my life. Conversely, those sorts of criticisms don't sting because it's just not my problem that other people don't like what I may or may not be doing for work.

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It's not even just about going to college.

 

I've had people ask me about my knitting and why I do it. Um. Because I enjoy it and find it interesting and satisfying?

 

But do you sell your finished object? Do you make money off it?

 

No. And given the ecomonic state of textiles in America right now, I probably never will.

 

Then why do you waste time making that stuff if you can just go buy something cheaper at wackomart?

 

*sigh*. Just no where polite to begin responding so I usually just smile at them in my best dumb blonde imitation of just being too confused to understand them.

 

Geesh you need to get new people.  Your people ...baaddd. 

 

My FIL had a lot of hobbies.  In particular he was very artistic and made a lot of art.  People constantly asked him why he didn't sell his art.  He said because as soon as he gets into doing that it moves from being for fun and enjoyment to having pressure on him. 

 

When I took up the violin there was talk of joining a community orchestra.  I thought about it for awhile.  But then I thought no I enjoy playing and learning how to play it, but I don't want to turn this into a chore or have to deal with the various commitments.  But it's like it isn't good enough to just do something for the sake of doing it. 

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That is just bizarre.

 

I mean, in some sense I can understand that people weigh the (high) cost of college classes against a tangible economic benefit (I myself am still a firm believe in the value of education per se)... but knitting??? What do these people in their spare time? Do they only do stuff that brings in money?

 

I'd place bets on TV, video games, or drinking - maybe sports.

 

In a way, the mindset goes along with what I mentioned about us all knowing ignorant adults...

 

NOTE:  This is NOT the same as saying anyone who enjoys TV, video games, drinking, or sports is ignorant - just the mindset of "why do it if you don't get/save money from it."  Those mindset folks are hardly getting money from their pastimes either, but likely fail to see that connection.

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I quilt therefore I am.

 

:D

 

This was not a skill I learned before turning 39. I am glad, ever so glad, that I chose to pursue it.

 

Now I admit, with two in college in the fall, I kind of wish I could parlay it into some "cha-ching", but oh well. I'm still going to be quilting.

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I'm baffled why many people seem to think it is weird. Pretty much the only reason I don't take more classes is the cost.

Not weird but a luxury especially with all the news on TV and in print about student loan debts.

 

A mom at my kids german school (non-profit) is taking the adult class on a "hardship" scholarship. Her kids are taking the children classes on reduced fees.

 

When I was looking at quite a few postgrad courses because my interest is varied, hubby and I were also looking at long term ROI in case of long term disability of breadwinner. While we could afford for me to go back to school, after shortlisting the choices, some would not make economic sense if we stay where we stay because of market saturation making barriers to entry high if the need to go back to work arise.

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Not weird but a luxury especially with all the news on TV and in print about student loan debts.

 

A mom at my kids german school (non-profit) is taking the adult class on a "hardship" scholarship. Her kids are taking the children classes on reduced fees.

 

When I was looking at quite a few postgrad courses because my interest is varied, hubby and I were also looking at long term ROI in case of long term disability of breadwinner. While we could afford for me to go back to school, after shortlisting the choices, some would not make economic sense if we stay where we stay because of market saturation making barriers to entry high if the need to go back to work arise.

 

Yeah definitely a luxury.  But I discovered that after tax breaks the CC near me is not costing me too much for a class here or there.  I would like to get a master's, but oh the cost.  Why does it have to be so expensive?!

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That is just bizarre.

 

I mean, in some sense I can understand that people weigh the (high) cost of college classes against a tangible economic benefit (I myself am still a firm believe in the value of education per se)... but knitting??? What do these people in their spare time? Do they only do stuff that brings in money?

 

ETA: I have friend who is a prolific fabric artist - knits, spins, weaves. When she is on the go she always knits socks. But selling? Nobody would be willing to pay an appropriate price for those socks that compensates her even remotely for the time spent. She makes them because she enjoys it and gives them to grateful family and very special friends.

You'd be surprised at how many people have zero passions aside from going to work and paying the bills and possibly watching tv. Even people who are very well off financially.

 

Especially women. Women are notorious for convincing themselves they aren't worth taking money ir the time from the family for themselves, but never give any thought to how much their husband spends for garage tools and fishing lures at his fav fishing hole with the guys or the kids playing soccer. If I point that out to them they immediately say, "well yeah but that's different." They can't ever seem to explain to me how or why though. The next step is they convince themselves they can't do it. Well maybe there are some things they can't do. But usually I don't think that's true.

 

For example, 3rd world countries enslave children born into toxic water environments and malnourishment who can't read or write in textile mills. So I'm pretty confident most any reasonably intelligent healthy adult woman can learn to knit if she wants to do it.

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Growing up my parents never did anything other than work.  My dad would read sometimes.  But nope, no hobbies and apparently no interests.  Although something I only learned recently, that is probably a result of their mental illnesses (especially my mother).

 

But me?  Geesh I have a zillion hobbies and interests.  My husband too.  

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Speechless. Somebody actually SAID that to you????

 

 

When I told people I was getting my degree (which I just finished last semester), they often asked, "but aren't you going to homeschool your kids?" or "so you'll be putting your kids in school, I guess" and when I said no, that I was still going to be at home with them, often the only explanation that made sense or "justified" my choice to finish school was that I had to use up my G.I. Bill money this year or it was going to expire.

 

Almost without fail, people did not see the sense in stressing myself out to get an education if I wasn't going to "use it" and by "use it" they meant to earn money. 

 

Which is funny, because almost the same number of people were surprised that I am "allowed" to educate my kids without a 4-year degree.

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Oh sure my knitting is a luxury. I freely admit that. If it ever came down to food or knitting, I'd sadly have to say goodbye to my knitting.

 

But the majority who ask me these things are people who can easily afford it and usually have far more income than I do.

 

Most of my knitting expenses come from my dh to be honest.

 

I would not have any stash if it wasn't for him enabling.

 

We go into a store and I think, "I need one skein of blue DK weight yarn for this project I want to do." I go in and I get it. And I turn around to head to the register and dh is standing there with a cart full of yarn that he is sure I can use and like. God help me if he also saw a clearance sign or there's some kind of sale. No matter how much I tell him no sale is cheaper than not buying it. And yeah sure I like it, but dang man show some restraint. I don't need all that. And then we dicker for a few minutes and we end up getting about 1/4 of what he had in the cart and me forgetting to put the one skein I needed in it and not noticing until I get home, but darned if I'm taking him with me to go back for it. 🙄

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You'd be surprised at how many people have zero passions aside from going to work and paying the bills and possibly watching tv. Even people who are very well off financially.

 

then I consider myself fortunate not to know these people ;-)

Seriously, I can't think of anybody in my circle of acquaintances who does not have an outside interest - even the most workaholic among my physics prof friends.

 

Especially women. Women are notorious for convincing themselves they aren't worth taking money ir the time from the family for themselves, but never give any thought to how much their husband spends for garage tools and fishing lures at his fav fishing hole with the guys or the kids playing soccer. If I point that out to them they immediately say, "well yeah but that's different." They can't ever seem to explain to me how or why though. The next step is they convince themselves they can't do it. Well maybe there are some things they can't do. But usually I don't think that's true.

 

Oh yes, I agree about that. It's the guilt thing. I admit that I have for a long time felt guilty for spending money on myself, and to a certain degree still do - which is ridiculous, especially since I also earn income (NOTE: Before this gets misinterpreted, I feel it necessary to point out that I am NOT saying a women who does not earn income does not deserve to spend money on herself! I merely want to point out how particularly ridiculous it is when the women even earns money). But yes, spending money on myself feels like a frivolous luxury and I have to make a conscious effort to do that - where I'd not bat an eyelash spending it on a kid activity. My DH is very supportive and encourages me; even when I was SAHM there was never any feeling of "his" money - it was "ours". Still. I am working on that.

 

But I see this as a bit different from pursuing interests and passions; even when finances are tight or she feels not worthy to spend money on herself, I can't see why a woman would not pursue an interest (of course,  in the very chaotic thick of infants and babies the only valid interest may be sleep and a shower)

Edited by regentrude
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Oh sure my knitting is a luxury. I freely admit that. If it ever came down to food or knitting, I'd sadly have to say goodbye to my knitting.

 

But the majority who ask me these things are people who can easily afford it and usually have far more income than I do.

 

Most of my knitting expenses come from my dh to be honest.

 

I would not have any stash if it wasn't for him enabling.

 

We go into a store and I think, "I need one skein of blue DK weight yarn for this project I want to do." I go in and I get it. And I turn around to head to the register and dh is standing there with a cart full of yarn that he is sure I can use and like. God help me if he also saw a clearance sign or there's some kind of sale. No matter how much I tell him no sale is cheaper than not buying it. And yeah sure I like it, but dang man show some restraint. I don't need all that. And then we dicker for a few minutes and we end up getting about 1/4 of what he had in the cart and me forgetting to put the one skein I needed in it and not noticing until I get home, but darned if I'm taking him with me to go back for it. 🙄

 

Luxury is a stretch I think.  You aren't being demanding and self entitled here.  You NEED to have something enjoyable that's just for you.  I really do think this is a need for many people. 

 

 

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