Legal responsibilities when selling used curriculum.

[sweetpea3829]

Now that my youngest is in 1st grade, I am finally able to pare down the amount of curriculum I keep. Some of it I'll donate, but some I'd like to sell.

 

What are my legal responsibilities? What can I sell and what can't I?

 

For example, I own EIW grade 1. I have the DVD and the pdf. I'm assuming I cannot sell or pass along the pdf, but can I sell the DVD?

 

Is there a hard and fast rule? Or does it depend on the specific curriculum?

[G5052]

Look in the front of the curriculum. Some don't allow resale at all, but most do.

 

No PDF's, print-outs that you made, or copies.

 

Mine are older, but the only one we've used of late that couldn't be resold was the DIVE science CD's. Everything else goes out the door as soon as I can get it listed unless I really want to keep it, or the publisher restricts it. A few things get donated to the library sale or go on Paperback Swap.

 

Some years, selling financed the next year's curriculum or nearly so.

[raptor_dad]

Legally it doesn't really matter what the publisher claims in the front of the book. First-sale doctrine[1] is well established in law and precedent and allows you to resale or import any legally purchased physical product regardless of the copyright owners claims. This would always apply to books and would apply to other media like cds or dvds unless you explicitly signed a licensing agreement.

 

For digital copies like PDFs or MP3s, you can't automatically resell those in the US but the European Court of Justice has declared that first-sale doctrine applies in the EU so EU buyers can resell there.

 

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

 

[Haiku]

I take a very dim view of curriculum sellers who tell me I can't resell their curriculum. If I even bother to buy from them, I gleefully and with malice aforethought ignore their illegal demands that I can't resell something that I own. They are wrong.

 

I don't resell PDFs because I can't do so legally.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I take a very dim view of curriculum sellers who tell me I can't resell their curriculum. If I even bother to buy from them, I gleefully and with malice aforethought ignore their illegal demands that I can't resell something that I own. They are wrong.

 

Yeah, it sets a terrible precedent for companies when customers actually follow their wishes about not reselling physical goods. I truly believe that the book, movie, video game, and record industries would love to find a way to convince their customers not to resell physical goods. Maybe clothing manufacturers as well. We need to get the word out that curricula developers have no legal right or moral right to try to get their customers to throw away rather than resell usable stuff.

[Lara in Colo]

The one company I really dislike is the One year adventure novel because you cannot buy the student book-- so the stuff is completely unsellable--- #1 reason I haven't bought it yet

 

[sweetpea3829]

So is there a question on the legality of reselling PDFs in the US? Or is there legal precedent that prohibits it?  

 

I mean...I guess I can see how allowing the resale of PDFs could be sticky.  If I sell a PDF file to somebody, I still have the original file.  I can sell it to as many people as I want, for a price lower than retail.  

 

Most companies I've got on my shelves don't seem to have a statement one way or the other.  But the one curriculum I used that was hard and fast against reselling...Tapestry of Grace.  They had that program so locked down, it would be nearly impossible to resell any of it.  

 

Actually, the steps they took to prevent resale made the program more difficult to navigate and use.  Which is part of why I don't use it.  

[GAPeachie]

I try really hard not to use companies that have issues with resale.  WinterPromise was (maybe still is) one that I skipped due to resale. 

 

Classical Conversations tries to say that you HAVE to buy Essentials and Challenge guides through their directors, but I've seen the guides on eBay and they are SNAPPED UP every time I see one for sale.  CC does it so you register for their community though.  

Edited February 23, 2016 by GAPeachie

[73349]

You can't sell something electronic (like a PDF) because you still have your copy even if you send a copy to someone else, so there's no way to determine that you're not just ripping the author/publisher off.

 

You can sell anything you bought in print (but not copies you made of it).

 

I have not bought anything like a CD that claims it can't be re-sold; generally those products are not known to be very good anyway.

[eternalsummer]

The same thing applies to clothing sellers, computer makers, house builders, etc., Sadie.

 

There are just many products that are not consumable.  If you make something that is not consumable, that can be used by more than one person, part of the equation of the value of your goods is that it can be resold.  If people couldn't resell things like houses I doubt they'd pay nearly as much for them, right?

[FO4UR]

The same thing applies to clothing sellers, computer makers, house builders, etc., Sadie.

 

There are just many products that are not consumable.  If you make something that is not consumable, that can be used by more than one person, part of the equation of the value of your goods is that it can be resold.  If people couldn't resell things like houses I doubt they'd pay nearly as much for them, right?

 

 

If it's a physical copy, you can resell.  If it's a digital product, no.

 

You cannot make copies, and then sell the copies.  It is unethical to make copies and then sell the book. It is unethical to make copies for 6 kids from one workbook unless it specifically says that it's reproducible.  Many people are either ignorant of the law or disregard it. That hurts the very person who aiding you in educating your children, the curric author.

 

 

Same applies for sheet music. Do you ever wonder why there is a severe lack of modern composers?  It's in part b/c their product is pirated. Music is a hobby, not a living.

 

Why do some really great curriculum writers come and go and are forgotten?  It is in large part b/c in such a small niche, when their product is pirated they do not make a living at writing and must spend their time finding a way to make a living. If you appreciate a particular author, thank them by purchasing their books legally and ethically.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, of course it just applies to physical items.  The PP said " Every cheap second hand copy of a curriculum you sell, is one less sale they can make. 

"

 

I assumed she was talking about physical items.

[TranquilMind]

Legally it doesn't really matter what the publisher claims in the front of the book. First-sale doctrine[1] is well established in law and precedent and allows you to resale or import any legally purchased physical product regardless of the copyright owners claims. This would always apply to books and would apply to other media like cds or dvds unless you explicitly signed a licensing agreement.

 

For digital copies like PDFs or MP3s, you can't automatically resell those in the US but the European Court of Justice has declared that first-sale doctrine applies in the EU so EU buyers can resell there.

 

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

This.

 

It's yours.  You bought it.  You can sell the physical object.

[sweetpea3829]

So....I reuse our workbooks. My kids never write in them. We remove the binding and put them in three-ring binders. They complete them with wet erase markers.

 

Is this considered unethical? (Tbh, in this particular case, I don't exactly care, as there is no other way we could afford workbooks×4. I'm just curious)

[Dmmetler]

The one that I question is things where I'm allowed to make copies of pages for a group, but not the .pdf. I get that-but at the same time, it makes more environmental sense to give my mythology club the .pdf to review from and let them either print their parts their DC needs or do it from a screen, but legally I can't.

[shage]

So....I reuse our workbooks. My kids never write in them. We remove the binding and put them in three-ring binders. They complete them with wet erase markers.

 

Is this considered unethical? (Tbh, in this particular case, I don't exactly care, as there is no other way we could afford workbooks×4. I'm just curious)

I see no problem with this. Consumable items are used until consumed. If you can figure out how to stretch the shelf life, more power to you. It is similar on my mind to reusing plastic water bottles.

[shage]

From another perspective...sales of curricula is how curricula writers make their money. Every cheap second hand copy of a curriculum you sell, is one less sale they can make.

 

Idk what the answer is, but disregarding entirely the fact that reselling can be a big problem for curricula writers and providers seems wrong.

It's a problem when the curriculum has a narrow consumer base, such as classical Christian homeschoolers. The solution is not to clamp down on legal sales, but to expand the consumer base. For example, market as well to tutoring services and private schools. Or go secular and market to charter home based programs and public schools.

 

A classic example of this is Art of Problem Solving. The curriculum is well designed for homeschool use because the books and videos are targeted directly to the student (instead of direct towards a teacher who then in turn teaches a class). Homeschoolers are a chunk of their base but certainly not all. The original market was gifted math kids in public schools without specialized teachers and classes. At the end of the day, they have created a niche product with a diverse customer base. They don't give a rip about used sales.of their books because they have ongoing demand.

[Haiku]

From another perspective...sales of curricula is how curricula writers make their money. Every cheap second hand copy of a curriculum you sell, is one less sale they can make.

 

My sole responsibility to a business is to pay for the items I purchase. I have no responsibility to prop up the business by hoarding my used curricula to force others to buy new.

 

What really galls me is when curriculum providers charge exactly the same amount for PDFs as they do for hard copies. What this tells me is that they are discounting the hard copy by not making people pay for the printing, binding, and distributing, and they are penalizing people who wish to be more environmentally conscious or tech-oriented.

Edited February 24, 2016 by TaraTheLiberator

[MarkT]

A classic example of this is Art of Problem Solving. The curriculum is well designed for homeschool use because the books and videos are targeted directly to the student (instead of direct towards a teacher who then in turn teaches a class). Homeschoolers are a chunk of their base but certainly not all. The original market was gifted math kids in public schools without specialized teachers and classes. At the end of the day, they have created a niche product with a diverse customer base. They don't give a rip about used sales.of their books because they have ongoing demand.

AoPS is also very reasonably priced so many folks just buy "new".

[Penelope]

AoPS is also very reasonably priced so many folks just buy "new".

Very true.

But also, giant paperback math books tend to get pretty beat up over the course of the year, in our experience-- the student book.

[Penelope]

What really galls me is when curriculum providers charge exactly the same amount for PDFs as they do for hard copies. What this tells me is that they are discounting the hard copy by not making people pay for the printing, binding, and distributing, and they are penalizing people who wish to be more environmentally conscious or tech-oriented.

I agree. I expect a small discount for PDFs.

[sweetpea3829]

I seem to remember certain curricula providers charging MORE for pdfs because afterall, now you can print as many copies as you want. I don't much appreciate that.

[silver]

Given that PDFs don't have printing charges for the publisher *and* it essentially removes a copy from the resale market (if I buy a paper copy, I can resell it to someone else--who then won't be buying a paper or PDF copy from the publisher), I don't understand how any publisher can justify anything but a lower price for the PDF.

Edited February 24, 2016 by silver

[eternalsummer]

If the demand is higher  for pdfs than for physical copies it makes sense to charge more for them; pricing is largely a matter of balancing what the market will bear + what you must charge to cover costs.

[happypamama]

Given that PDFs don't have printing charges for the publisher *and* it essentially removes a copy from the resale market (if I buy a paper copy, I can resell it to someone else--who then won't be buying a paper or PDF copy from the publisher), I don't understand how any publisher can justify anything but a lower price for the PDF.

Because you can easily print more of the PDF if you use it for a future child, whereas in order to reuse a book, you'd have to go to the trouble of copying it, or of working it out on notebook paper, in which case you might decide just to use the book and buy a new one for your next child.  So I can see why they might charge more for the PDF, knowing that you'll for sure only buy it once.

 

However, I prefer PDFs because they are generally cheaper.  I'm going to spend a little something in paper and ink to print it, but nowhere near the cost of buying the whole thing again.  I love my History Odyssey books that come in PDF form for quite a bit less than the print copies.  I have cheap printer ink and a stash of paper from a mega Staples deal, so I can print the entire thing for each successive child for a few dollars, rather than another $50 per child or whatever the print version is.

 

I wonder if it's actually unethical to sell or give the actual PDF file to a friend, if you don't keep the original file for yourself.  Many PDF things have a limited amount of time to download them, so it's not like you could just download it again.  I haven't done it, and I don't know that I would.

[Reefgazer]

Stop over-thinking and sell the stuff you no longer use; it's yours and you should dispose of it as you wish.

[daijobu]

So....I reuse our workbooks. My kids never write in them. We remove the binding and put them in three-ring binders. They complete them with wet erase markers.

 

Is this considered unethical? (Tbh, in this particular case, I don't exactly care, as there is no other way we could afford workbooks×4. I'm just curious)

 

Don't worry about it.  For every homeschooler like you, there's one like me:  I pay for the privilege of letting my kids write in them and then throw them into recycling when they are done.  I only have 2 kids and I welcome the convenience.  It's up to the vendor to make sure the ratio of reusers to consumers is such that they are making enough money for themselves.  That's not your responsibility.  

[eternalsummer]

Copyright refers literally to the right to make copies of things.  Taking the book apart, laminating it, and using it repeatedly that way has nothing to do with copying.  You are not making copies of it, legal or illegal.

 

 

[cintinative]

So....I reuse our workbooks. My kids never write in them. We remove the binding and put them in three-ring binders. They complete them with wet erase markers.

 

Is this considered unethical? (Tbh, in this particular case, I don't exactly care, as there is no other way we could afford workbooks×4. I'm just curious)

 

I think it would be unethical to sell the workbook even if it is clean after you have used it multiple times. It was designed to be consumed. It isn't their fault you didn't consume it.  That's just my opinion. 

 

But reusing it in your own family is okay.

Edited February 27, 2016 by cintinative

[daijobu]

Sometimes I purchase used textbooks, or I decide that a new book is worth the premium.  Sometimes when I'm done with curriculum or science equipment I will sell it or sometimes just give it away to my friends.  

 

With the science equipment in particular, it's almost like a group buy situation, where we share in the cost and take turns using the equipment, not unlike a school or co-op.  In my particular situation, since I purchase the equipment new I will pay the bulk of the cost.  I will usually sell the used equipment for 1/3 my cost or free.

 

In fact, schools also purchase science equipment that is used for multiple years, and they pass on books to several generations of students before they are retired from use, and perhaps given away or sold used.  (I always enjoyed looking inside the front cover to see which older students used my textbook before me.)  

[LucyStoner]

From another perspective...sales of curricula is how curricula writers make their money. Every cheap second hand copy of a curriculum you sell, is one less sale they can make.

 

Idk what the answer is, but disregarding entirely the fact that reselling can be a big problem for curricula writers and providers seems wrong.

This doesn't hold water for physical items unless we also think it is acceptable to close every thriftshop. I just bought a Sony iPhone dock/radio/CD player/speaker set for $5 at resale shop. And a grind and brew coffee maker from Cuisinart for $7.50. Am I ripping off Sony and Cuisinart (or their parent companies) by not buying these things new? No, no I am not. Coffeemaker manufacturers and audio equipment designers make their income selling new household wares, when I buy a cheap used version I am immorally or illegally depriving them of a sale? I don't think most people or the law would agree.

 

I have many pieces of art on my wall. Most of them are one of a kind original works purchased from small galleries or art shows. I am not going to photograph them and sell prints but if I tire of the item or need money or decide to move to a smaller place with no room for all of it, I can and will sell or donate it.

 

I don't share MP3 files or sell PDFs but for non-digital, tangible items, the law is clearly with the original buyers of the original and not illegally duplicated item. We may sell, donate, give to a friend, burn, stash in our closet or use it to level a table. It's ours and the publisher doesn't get to limit my use of it or get a say in how I dispose of it.

Edited February 28, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Holly]

SCM allows you to re-sell their PDFs.  You are supposed to delete the copy from your computer after selling.  I don't think I would be comfortable selling their PDFs, because it seems hurtful to a small business, but they are okay with it.  

Edited February 28, 2016 by Holly

[Corraleno]

I think it would be unethical to sell the workbook even if it is clean after you have used it multiple times. It was designed to be consumed. It isn't their fault you didn't consume it.  That's just my opinion. 

 

But reusing it in your own family is okay.

 

Legally there is no difference between a "workbook" and a regular book; the First Sale Doctrine applies equally to both. Even if a workbook has been completely filled in, it's still perfectly legal to sell it, just as it's perfectly legal to sell a textbook that has highlighting and notes on every page. When/how/if a book is "used" is irrelevant in terms of the consumer's right to sell it. And no one is obligated to give up their rights in order to increase the publisher's profit. One could even argue that it's unethical for publishers to try to fool consumers into believing it's "wrong" to reuse or resell a workbook.

[J-rap]

It never occurred to me that I couldn't sell something that I purchased... that is, a textbook, workbook, or CD.  I wouldn't sell a membership to an online site though.

 

I know eBay doesn't allow you to sell answer books because apparently there have been problems with the misuse of that.  That rule doesn't take into consideration homeschool parents though, but as far as I know, they haven't changed it.  That means you have to be more creative in your description.  So I might say "Algebra 2 Bundle -- Everything Included!" instead of "Algebra 2 -- Textbook plus Answer Book."

 

[December]

How are people misusing answer books?  Are students buying them to cheat??

[Incognito]

How are people misusing answer books?  Are students buying them to cheat??

 

Yes.

[CactusPair]

What is the general opinion of reselling Calvert materials?

 

I used Calvert only one year.  From what I remember, Calvert's rule was No Reselling of any of their spiral bound Instructor's Guides, Curriculum Plans, etc after the purchaser was finished using them.

 

They charge a gazillion dollars, but don't allow resale.  Does anyone know if that's still the case?

 

It was a long time ago, but I remember something about Calvert materials being pulled off Ebay, etc is someone was "caught" trying to resell???  Not sure if I'm remembering correctly.   Seems extreme...

 

 

[reign]

SCM allows you to re-sell their PDFs. You are supposed to delete the copy from your computer after selling. I don't think I would be comfortable selling their PDFs, because it seems hurtful to a small business, but they are okay with it.

What is SCM?

[Holly]

What is SCM?

 

Simply Charlotte Mason

[reign]

Thanks!

[JumpyTheFrog]

What is the general opinion of reselling Calvert materials?

 

I used Calvert only one year.  From what I remember, Calvert's rule was No Reselling of any of their spiral bound Instructor's Guides, Curriculum Plans, etc after the purchaser was finished using them.

 

 

This is exactly the kind of thing being talked about in this thread. If you BUY (not rent) their materials, you are not legally obligated to follow their (non-legal) policy about this.