How do relaxed homeschoolers/unschoolers get into 4 year universities?

[Shellydon]

I was asked this question last week and I didn't have an answer and thought perhaps someone here could enlighten me.  In my state, there is a state wide admission policy for all public universities.  4 years of science, including Biology, Chemistry and Physics is required.  4 years of math, 4 years of English, 2 years of Foreign Language, Government, Economics, World History, American History and a few more are requirements.  The larger more competitive universities can then require additional courses, for example if you are applying to a university's college of engineering, you would be required to have had at Calculus.

 

One of my DD's is interested in veterinarian school, so I've been looking at various colleges around the country.  It appears that these type of requirements are pretty typical.  One school even has a form that must be filled out if you did not take the required class detailing why each class was skipped. 

 

So...... in light of these requirements a couple of kids in my homeschool group got rejected from the universities they applied too last fall.  This has started a good bit of concern and stress about college admittance among the members and the question of how relaxed/unschooled students get into college?  

 

Thanks for any insight!

Edited January 20, 2016 by Shellydon

[Melissa B]

Around here they start at the (well regarded) community college that doesn't have any requirements and then transfer into the desired university. 

[Ellie]

I was asked this question last week and I didn't have an answer and thought perhaps someone here could enlighten me.  In my state, there is a state wide admission policy for all public universities.  4 years of science, including Biology, Chemistry and Physics is required.  4 years of math, 4 years of English, 2 years of Foreign Language, Government, Economics, World History, American History and a few more are requirements.  The larger more competitive universities can then require additional courses, for example if you are applying to a university's college of engineering, you would be required to have had at Calculus.

 

One of my DD's is interested in veterinarian school, so I've been looking at various colleges around the country.  It appears that these type of requirements are pretty typical.  One school even has a form that must be filled out if you did not take the required class detailing why each class was skipped. 

 

So...... in light of these requirements a couple of kids in my homeschool group got rejected from the universities they applied too last fall.  This has started a good bit of concern and stress about college admittance among the members and the question of how relaxed/unschooled students get into college?  

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

If relaxed/unschoolers want to go to college the way their peers in school do, then they figure out how to get 4 years of all that stuff...if they even want to go to college in the first place. They might or might not, because they might have found other ways of being responsible, self-supporting adults without college, such as apprenticeships.

[The Girls' Mom]

Around here they start at the (well regarded) community college that doesn't have any requirements and then transfer into the desired university. 

This is what all the unschoolers I know have done.

[Lolly]

Agreeing, community college first. I know many kids who are graduating with engineering degrees who started out at CC and transferred. You do not have to start out at a 4 yr to make it in engineering.

[maize]

Some colleges seem to accept homeschooled students based primarily on test scores.

[theelfqueen]

Shelly - has your DD done the research on the requirements for the careers/educational opportunities that interest her? Perhaps if she feels connected to them she can help to come up with a plan that suits her needs, or at least buy into a plan that you make together, that addresses the requirements to the best of her abilities, etc.

[Ellie]

Some colleges seem to accept homeschooled students based primarily on test scores.

 

Stanford does. Test scores plus portfolio and whatnot.

[Hilltopmom]

My unschooled teen decided he wants to go into engineering or computer science & so HE decided to do high school more traditionally, by meeting all the requirements for the state & for college admissions. Granted, we do stuff out of the box when we can & lots of fun educational extracurriculars, but he decided to do Bio with a textbook & labs for example, rather than piecemeal bio in an unschooly way.

 

His choice, so although what he's doing now looks like school at home, he made the decision from an unschooling background.

 

You can "unschool" those subjects you listed, but still need to cover them if you want to go the traditional 4 year Uni route. And it's gonna need to be more serious & a higher level than say, unschooling elementary subjects, kwim.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Hilltopmom

[Shellydon]

Around here they start at the (well regarded) community college that doesn't have any requirements and then transfer into the desired university. 

 

That makes sense, and that is a perfectly good way to start off college, IMO.  It just seemed to send a bit of a shock through our group that if a student skipped or substituted required courses, they would get rejection letters.  The buzz has always been if you had a great letter explaining your alternate schooling, they'd let you in.  Seems to not be the case.  

[Shellydon]

My unschooled teen decided he wants to go into engineering or computer science & so HE decided to do high school more traditionally, by meeting all the requirements for the state & for college admissions. Granted, we do stuff out of the box when we can & lots of fun educational extracurriculars, but he decided to do Bio with a textbook & labs for example, rather than piecemeal bio in an unschooly way.

 

His choice, so although what he's doing now looks like school at home, he made the decision from an unschooling background.

 

You can "unschool" those subjects you listed, but still need to cover them if you want to go the traditional 4 year Uni route. And it's gonna need to be more serious & a higher level than say, unschooling elementary subjects, kwim.

 

That makes sense, but I think many kids do not decide that until their junior or senior year, which makes things tough.

[foxbridgeacademy]

The following is just my opinion and I realize many will disagree...... :D

 

In my state the Univ. might require you take Biology but they don't tell you how to do it.... so unschooling wouldn't be as much of an issue.  I would list it as Biology on a transcript same as anyone else.  In the description I would list ALL of the resources used, often a textbook is needed for reference at least?  List it, just because most of your time was spent tromping around in ponds and streams or looking through a microscope, watching documentaries, and volunteering at the Zoo doesn't mean you didn't learn.  As a PP said most Colleges (IME) really only care about the ACT/SAT scores, a transcript with grades is just paperwork, so give them their paperwork in a language they understand. Instead of getting creative with courses and titles get creative with how to fit what you do into the standard course titles.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy

[SparklyUnicorn]

The following is just my opinion and I realize many will disagree...... :D

 

In my state the Univ. might require you take Biology but they don't tell you how to do it.... so unschooling wouldn't be as much of an issue.  I would list it as Biology on a transcript same as anyone else.  In the description I would list ALL of the resources used, often a textbook is needed for reference at least?  List it, just because most of your time was spent tromping around in ponds and streams or looking through a microscope, watching documentaries, and volunteering at the Zoo doesn't mean you didn't learn.  As a PP said most Colleges (IME) really only care about the ACT/SAT scores a transcript with grades it just paperwork, so give them their paperwork in a language they understand. Instead of getting creative with courses and titles get creative with how to fit what you do into the standard course titles.

 

I like how you think. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My unschooled teen decided he wants to go into engineering or computer science & so HE decided to do high school more traditionally, by meeting all the requirements for the state & for college admissions. Granted, we do stuff out of the box when we can & lots of fun educational extracurriculars, but he decided to do Bio with a textbook & labs for example, rather than piecemeal bio in an unschooly way.

 

His choice, so although what he's doing now looks like school at home, he made the decision from an unschooling background.

 

You can "unschool" those subjects you listed, but still need to cover them if you want to go the traditional 4 year Uni route. And it's gonna need to be more serious & a higher level than say, unschooling elementary subjects, kwim.

 

That's very awesome.  Good for him!

[Hilltopmom]

That makes sense, but I think many kids do not decide that until their junior or senior year, which makes things tough.

That's true. Then at that point they could decide how badly they want the experience, & either take longer to graduate to get those required courses in, or go the CC route.

 

One thing we realized early on in unschooling was that if our education was alternative, it may not be accepted by traditional colleges & the kids might need to go a different route.

 

Parents shouldn't be shocked if they school out of the box & then the box doesn't like what they did.

 

I'm secretly glad he decided to do high school more traditionally, makes writing up the paperwork less creative & easier for me;)

[SparklyUnicorn]

That's true. Then at that point they could decide how badly they want the experience, & either take longer to graduate to get those required courses in, or go the CC route.

 

One thing we realized early on in unschooling was that if our education was alternative, it may not be accepted by traditional colleges & the kids might need to go a different route.

 

Parents shouldn't be shocked if they school out of the box & then the box doesn't like what they did.

 

I'm secretly glad he decided to do high school more traditionally, makes writing up the paperwork less creative & easier for me;)

 

You are in NY too huh?  Whew..that's a lot of paperwork for you. 

[daijobu]

Cal Newport writes about relaxed students (not unschoolers or even homeschoolers necessarily, but it can still apply) getting admitted to reach schools.  He argues that students who grind their way through 10 APs and half a dozen extracurriculars aren't doing themselves any favors when it comes to college admissions.  Read some of his books; you'll see how they fit in nicely with an unschooling/relaxed philosophy.  

[daijobu]

 

 

One of my DD's is interested in veterinarian school, so I've been looking at various colleges around the country.  It appears that these type of requirements are pretty typical.  One school even has a form that must be filled out if you did not take the required class detailing why each class was skipped. 

 

 

I don't know much about admission to vet school, except what I read from other homeschoolers on the internet who are applying.  It sounds like with vet school admissions, your students needs to have extensive experience working with animals, say, as an intern before they apply.  I think being a homeschooler makes it easier to schedule these opportunities around your school work and go much deeper and further in your exposure to animals.  

[EndOfOrdinary]

As an unschooled high schooler, I spent a whole lot of angst and energy fighting to have the system hear me and my way of doing things. The system could have cared less! Perhaps it should have cared, but my lone little voice was not going to change that. What I needed more than anything was someone to teach my how to explain myself to the system in the right words.

 

I went the community college route. My son is the Alex P Keaton of unschooling. He sets himself schedules, asks for more traditional-ish resources, and in general likes structure. He has Ivy dreams and that means even at eleven he has done the necessary research to begin learning the ways colleges want certain information.

 

Hoop jumping is a skill. If there was one MAJOR diwnside to unschooling it is that I never learned how to do it. We are strongly recitifying that in our homeschool. Colleges, bosses, and real world life very much expect it to be a skill which is already acquired. It takes patience and practice to do it well.

[Arcadia]

This is from a 2014 opinion piece http://ww2.kqed.org/mindshift/2014/09/02/how-do-unschoolers-turn-out/

 

"Most of those who went on to college did so without either a high school diploma or general education diploma (GED), and without taking the SAT or ACT. Several credited interviews and portfolios for their acceptance to college, but by far the most common route to a four-year college was to start at a community college (typically begun at age 16, but sometimes even younger)."

 

The same article also mentioned that unschoolers would jump through hoops if they think it is essential to reach their goals. It is just that it is the child initiating the hoop jumping and not the parent telling the child to do so.

[justasque]

The following is just my opinion and I realize many will disagree...... :D

 

In my state the Univ. might require you take Biology but they don't tell you how to do it.... so unschooling wouldn't be as much of an issue.  I would list it as Biology on a transcript same as anyone else.  In the description I would list ALL of the resources used, often a textbook is needed for reference at least?  List it, just because most of your time was spent tromping around in ponds and streams or looking through a microscope, watching documentaries, and volunteering at the Zoo doesn't mean you didn't learn.  As a PP said most Colleges (IME) really only care about the ACT/SAT scores, a transcript with grades is just paperwork, so give them their paperwork in a language they understand. Instead of getting creative with courses and titles get creative with how to fit what you do into the standard course titles.

 

One can learn a heck of a lot of bio through pond/stream studies, documentaries, and volunteering at the Zoo, including lots of important/useful things that textbook-heavy courses might not include.  However, the opposite is also true.  For someone planning on a major in literature or economics or art, the "mucking about in ponds" approach may be adequate, appropriate, or maybe even superior preparation for their course of study in college.  For a bio-heavy major, though, a textbook-based course lays a substantial foundation for college-level courses, in terms of concepts, vocabulary, and foundational knowledge.  It would be wise to take that into consideration when deciding how to mentor a student who is doing self-directed bio study with a goal of preparing for a bio-heavy major in college.    Getting past the admissions gate is important; preparing well for what follows is also worth considering.

[pehp]

I have a friend who did a very relaxed homeschooling, sort of unschooling with some required books and papers, for her children.  Her older child started CC around the age of 17, and concentrated in paralegal skills and now works as a paralegal and LOVES her job.  Her younger child started CC math classes around 14.  He graduated w/ his associate's degree at the age of 17ish and easily got into the top two math/engineering schools in our state; his CC math professors fell all over themselves over him because he was so smart and *into* math.  So he'll graduate from college in 2 years w/ his degree in math, and then has already been guaranteed admission into the math master's program at his university.  

 

My idea for us is to start CC classes around the ages of 16ish, depending on our children's maturity levels and interests, and take that route into college studies, unless our children present us with specific interests which would require more formal work in a brick and mortar school earlier.  (They're 8 and 5, so no clue what will unfold there!)  We also plan to require our children to leave CC with a specific skill/certificate.  It's funny because my friend did this with her children and I didn't even know about it until last week--her son chose electrical wiring.  It is my opinion, and my experience, that too many high school graduates are entering college with no real skills other than the academic skills they hone in college.  (See me raising my hand? Philosophy degree!)  We want our children to have access to any college experience they want, but we also want them to have a marketable skill, whether it is HVAC, culinary, dental hygiene--whatever.  

 

Also, my friend began to pull together a 'high school' transcript for her son for the four-year university.  She contacted the admissions dept w/ a question and they said she did not need to bother; his grades and experience in the community college program were sufficient, and they weren't going to bother with his high school transcripts.  I was floored! (In a good way!) But I think it bodes well for homeschoolers in the future. 

 

In any case, I think it is a good idea to have these general requirements in one's mind and do plenty of research in advance to determine how to fit the unschool-y experience into an academic framework that makes sense to universities. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Penguin]

The following is just my opinion and I realize many will disagree...... :D

 

In my state the Univ. might require you take Biology but they don't tell you how to do it.... so unschooling wouldn't be as much of an issue.  I would list it as Biology on a transcript same as anyone else.  In the description I would list ALL of the resources used, often a textbook is needed for reference at least?  List it, just because most of your time was spent tromping around in ponds and streams or looking through a microscope, watching documentaries, and volunteering at the Zoo doesn't mean you didn't learn.  As a PP said most Colleges (IME) really only care about the ACT/SAT scores, a transcript with grades is just paperwork, so give them their paperwork in a language they understand. Instead of getting creative with courses and titles get creative with how to fit what you do into the standard course titles.

:iagree:

[Matryoshka]

I think another way is a hook of some kind.  We have a friend who is now at a prominent school in Boston.  I'm not sure of exactly what his mom's official philosophy was, but I know senior year she said science was reading Campbell's to him on the couch.  No labs, no written work, no tests, and I don't think they made it through the book.  I asked about math, she said they got stuck in Algebra II and so just skipped up to Calculus (? - but I think the dad is good at math, and I think the kid is very smart too, if not traditionally educated). 

 

His hooks?  Amazing cellist who had played for years with a top youth orchestra and made his own recordings, and also played lead roles in Shakespeare plays for 6 years (I think the Shakespeare company comprised a big part of Language Arts and History for him).  He also spent a bunch of time touring Europe with the youth orchestra.

 

I have no idea what his transcript looked like, or how or if she wrote it up to fit into 'boxes', but I can't say his high school years were very boxy. ;) At any rate, he got in, and seems to be doing well, as far as I know (still a freshman...)

 

None of my kids have hooks of these kinds or shown any interest or inclination to develop one, so ...

[SparklyUnicorn]

Cal Newport writes about relaxed students (not unschoolers or even homeschoolers necessarily, but it can still apply) getting admitted to reach schools.  He argues that students who grind their way through 10 APs and half a dozen extracurriculars aren't doing themselves any favors when it comes to college admissions.  Read some of his books; you'll see how they fit in nicely with an unschooling/relaxed philosophy.  

 

It bugs me when people say this.  (Not aiming this at you.)  Because students are told these are the hoops they are supposed to jump through.  So they jump through the hoops and someone comes along and poos on that?  Anyone who could manage 10 APs can't be a total sluff.  KWIM?

 

Not that I don't understand his POV.  And not that I don't think other paths are valid.  I just don't understand putting down that particular path.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think another way is a hook of some kind.  We have a friend who is now at a prominent school in Boston.  I'm not sure of exactly what his mom's official philosophy was, but I know senior year she said science was reading Campbell's to him on the couch.  No labs, no written work, no tests, and I don't think they made it through the book.  I asked about math, she said they got stuck in Algebra II and so just skipped up to Calculus (? - but I think the dad is good at math, and I think the kid is very smart too, if not traditionally educated). 

 

His hooks?  Amazing cellist who had played for years with a top youth orchestra and made his own recordings, and also played lead roles in Shakespeare plays for 6 years (I think the Shakespeare company comprised a big part of Language Arts and History for him).  He also spent a bunch of time touring Europe with the youth orchestra.

 

I have no idea what his transcript looked like, or how or if she wrote it up to fit into 'boxes', but I can't say his high school years were very boxy. ;) At any rate, he got in, and seems to be doing well, as far as I know (still a freshman...)

 

None of my kids have hooks of these kinds or shown any interest or inclination to develop one, so ...

 

Although I see this sort of thing as someone having a natural gift and/or being in a position of having the money and/or special access to gain that kind of exposure.  The average person does not.  So more importantly how does the average person pull this off.  We can imagine how someone with an unusual gift or advantage pulls it off. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[JanetC]

Although I see this sort of thing as someone having a natural gift and/or being in a position of having the money and/or special access to gain that kind of exposure. The average person does not. So more importantly how does the average person pull this off. We can imagine how someone with an unusual gift or advantage pulls it off.

I think there are two parts to this:

 

1. You have to adjust your definition of "pulling it off" to the kid you have. If your kid is not the sort who can skip algebra 2 and go straight to calculus, maybe MIT isn't the place.

 

2. You look at where you are and take one step forward. My DD does science fair, and there are a lot of "advantaged kids" on the stage getting awards each year. They are mostly kids in mentoring programs associated with a couple national labs in my state, another big mentoring program, and two high schools with a long history of producing winners. And then there's my kid. How did she get there?

 

Well, it's like the old how do you get to Carnegie Hall saying. Practice, practice, practice. Every year, I look at what's been done and what we can do better and how can we learn from the experience. She gets better every year. We also take the stance that we are in it to become a better scientist, not "in it to win it." It's better to cultivate gratitude for what we have accomplished than to waste energy on jealousy and frustration over things we cannot control, like the resources we have or a judge's attitude. Maybe she's not going to be the kid who wins the trip to ISEF, but she is learning and growing, and winning some of the smaller awards that she can be proud of.

[Julie of KY]

I think it is possible to "unschool" 4 year of English, the required sciences, history, etc. Probably a little harder to unschool precalc and some other maths, but certainly don't have to go down a traditional path.

 

I think if you want to get into a university with set requirements, then you should expect to jump through some of their hoops. It may be as simple as saying in your four years of high school you did 4 years of English, etc.You don't necessarily have to say what constituted your credit and it certainly doesn't have to be traditional. If you go through a different route to get into the university (such as community college) then you might not have to check all their boxes.

 

I do think that it is beneficial to teach certain kids to be able to box check and jump through all the hoops required of someone else, because this is likely to be required for various classes or jobs.

[Garga]

I was asked this question last week and I didn't have an answer and thought perhaps someone here could enlighten me.  In my state, there is a state wide admission policy for all public universities.  4 years of science, including Biology, Chemistry and Physics is required.  4 years of math, 4 years of English, 2 years of Foreign Language, Government, Economics, World History, American History and a few more are requirements.  The larger more competitive universities can then require additional courses, for example if you are applying to a university's college of engineering, you would be required to have had at Calculus.

 

One of my DD's is interested in veterinarian school, so I've been looking at various colleges around the country.  It appears that these type of requirements are pretty typical.  One school even has a form that must be filled out if you did not take the required class detailing why each class was skipped. 

 

So...... in light of these requirements a couple of kids in my homeschool group got rejected from the universities they applied too last fall.  This has started a good bit of concern and stress about college admittance among the members and the question of how relaxed/unschooled students get into college?  

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

 

So what did the kids in the homeschool group do for high school?  Did they receive a robust education, just not in the specific sciences or math or literature that the college expected?  Or did they actually not receive a robust education and the parents thought that since they were "different" that would be enough of a reason for the college to want them? 

 

Colleges are looking for kids who can handle the workload and have enough of a background in the subjects they'll need to take in college to be able to jump right in.  (Science vocabulary, writing ability, math skills.)

 

Perhaps those kids in the homeschool group did learn enough to handle the workload and know the basics of the classes they'll take but the transcript/course descriptions didn't demonstration their knowledge.  Or perhaps the kids didn't learn what they needed to learn to be able to jump into college level classes and the college admissions people could tell.

 

I think the book about how to be a superstar student is goofy.  Per the reviews one of the kids profiled in the book wrote health policy for his state. Riiiight.  I'm supposed to tell my kid to do whatever he wants in high school and then next thing I know he'll have written state policy.  Sure, follow your passions, but it's only 1 in a million (or maybe 1 in 2 million) kids who are going to be cellists who travel the world or write state policy.  Most kids are being hassled by their parents to get off the playstation (because that's their passion) and do their homework.  They're not out writing policy and traveling the world.  They're avoiding chores and texting their friends and maybe playing a sport for fun with their buddies.  Maybe they have a pretty awesome hobby, but it might not be enough to grant entrance into college.  My son has baked about 6 batches of cookies every week for 2.5 years for the homeless shelter.  He does it on his own (I shop for the ingredients).  Admirable, sure.  But can he do college level biology because of it....no.  I still need to teach him academic stuff.  He's not out there opening a bakery and self-teaching how to own a business.  He's following his passion which only includes baking a few batches of cookies each week and that's the extent of it.  His passion is not opening a business or creating new recipes.  He just likes the quiet time in the kitchen doing something to help his fellow man in a small way.

 

So most kids will need to show the admissions people that they finally did get off their playstations and studied the basics taught in high school and are, in fact, capable of handling the workload and have the basic knowledge to jump into their college level classes.

 

I do believe that within the guidelines of required classes for high school there are lots of ways to go about meeting those guidelines--you can be creative about how to teach biology or how to study literature.  However, you still have to always keep your eye on the fact that colleges don't want your kids to flunk out because they don't have the basic science vocabulary, math skills, or writing skills learned to be able to handle a college course.  Somehow you've got to actually teach those things and then translate it onto a transcript/course description for the college to see that your kid is ready.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Garga

[Penelope]

So what did the kids in the homeschool group do for high school? Did they receive a robust education, just not in the specific sciences or math or literature that the college expected? Or did they actually not receive a robust education and the parents thought that since they were "different" that would be enough of a reason for the college to want them?

 

Colleges are looking for kids who can handle the workload and have enough of a background in the subjects they'll need to take in college to be able to jump right in. (Science vocabulary, writing ability, math skills.)

 

Perhaps those kids in the homeschool group did learn enough to handle the workload and know the basics of the classes they'll take but the transcript/course descriptions didn't demonstration their knowledge. Or perhaps the kids didn't learn what they needed to learn to be able to jump into college level classes and the college admissions people could tell.

 

I think the book about how to be a superstar student is goofy. Per the reviews one of the kids profiled in the book wrote health policy for his state. Riiiight. I'm supposed to tell my kid to do whatever he wants in high school and then next thing I know he'll have written state policy. Sure, follow your passions, but it's only 1 in a million (or maybe 1 in 2 million) kids who are going to be cellists who travel the world or write state policy. Most kids are being hassled by their parents to get off the playstation (because that's their passion) and do their homework. They're not out writing policy and traveling the world. They're avoiding chores and texting their friends and maybe playing a sport for fun with their buddies. Maybe they have a pretty awesome hobby, but it might not be enough to grant entrance into college. My son has baked about 6 batches of cookies every week for 2.5 years for the homeless shelter. He does it on his own (I shop for the ingredients). Admirable, sure. But can he do college level biology because of it....no. I still need to teach him academic stuff. He's not out there opening a bakery and self-teaching how to own a business. He's following his passion which only includes baking a few batches of cookies each week and that's the extent of it. His passion is not opening a business or creating new recipes. He just likes the quiet time in the kitchen doing something to help his fellow man in a small way.

 

So most kids will need to show the admissions people that they finally did get off their playstations and studied the basics taught in high school and are, in fact, capable of handling the workload and have the basic knowledge to jump into their college level classes.

 

I do believe that within the guidelines of required classes for high school there are lots of ways to go about meeting those guidelines--you can be creative about how to teach biology or how to study literature. However, you still have to always keep your eye on the fact that colleges don't want your kids to flunk out because they don't have the basic science vocabulary, math skills, or writing skills learned to be able to handle a college course. Somehow you've got to actually teach those things and then translate it onto a transcript/course description for the college to see that your kid is ready.

Great post!

 

Yeah, and being the one footing the bills, I don't want the kids getting to college and not being able to jump in, either! I can't help thinking that for every kid who goes smoothly from puttering about in the pond and just doing NanoWriMo now and then, right to college biology lab and freshman lit, there are at least 5 other kids who will be lost and will flounder with the higher work load and expectations.

 

I'm sure there is some happy medium somewhere, and there are homeschoolers who seem to find it. But it seems daunting.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Penelope

[foxbridgeacademy]

Although I see this sort of thing as someone having a natural gift and/or being in a position of having the money and/or special access to gain that kind of exposure.  The average person does not.  So more importantly how does the average person pull this off.  We can imagine how someone with an unusual gift or advantage pulls it off. 

For DD I have no concerns about her finding that hook, really narrowing it down to one or two will be the issue.  DS on the other hand is a smart but average student who will only do the absolute minimum after a bit of nagging.  So what to do with the uninspired child?  I think we're going to have to "manufacture" a "hook" for him.  Find something that isn't too horrible and that he can do reasonably well at and just make him.  He's okay with doing things as long as I require them and make him do them (his words not mine).  

 

*As for "hooks", I'm thinking something that has a volunteer aspect or a skill that can be used in the future.  

 

ETA- I should say that we are not unschoolers. We are eclectic leaning a little toward what might be called traditional.  We use textbooks and TGC lectures, we do standard labs and I really hope one day soon my children can sit down and write an essay without a full blown drama.  I do think there is a great value though in trying new and different things and an even bigger value in NOT stressing over grades and "did they learn enough".  I figure we'll keep plugging away at it, sometimes with a book, lecture, or a test and sometimes by less traditional means.

Edited January 21, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy

[Pen]

I was asked this question last week and I didn't have an answer and thought perhaps someone here could enlighten me.  In my state, there is a state wide admission policy for all public universities.  4 years of science, including Biology, Chemistry and Physics is required.  4 years of math, 4 years of English, 2 years of Foreign Language, Government, Economics, World History, American History and a few more are requirements.  The larger more competitive universities can then require additional courses, for example if you are applying to a university's college of engineering, you would be required to have had at Calculus.

 

One of my DD's is interested in veterinarian school, so I've been looking at various colleges around the country.  It appears that these type of requirements are pretty typical.  One school even has a form that must be filled out if you did not take the required class detailing why each class was skipped. 

 

So...... in light of these requirements a couple of kids in my homeschool group got rejected from the universities they applied too last fall.  This has started a good bit of concern and stress about college admittance among the members and the question of how relaxed/unschooled students get into college?  

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

I would think that the DD who is interested in vet school could unschool by looking at the requirements for vet school at the college level, and then at what it will take to have those met back at the high school level. I'd think unschool would mean that the child could decide herself what was important to her and do that, including that it might mean a more rigorous high school path that would include the courses you mention above.  I am assuming that you do not mean unschool to the point that all textbooks and standard courses would be verboten, only that they would not be mandatory for your home. But if the child wants to do something that the child would be allowed to do what it would take to be on that path.

[Pen]

That makes sense, and that is a perfectly good way to start off college, IMO.  It just seemed to send a bit of a shock through our group that if a student skipped or substituted required courses, they would get rejection letters.  The buzz has always been if you had a great letter explaining your alternate schooling, they'd let you in.  Seems to not be the case.  

 

 

I don't know what the current situation is with getting into vet school, but think it would be probably harder to get into vet school having started out at a community college, especially if the reason for being at community college is that high school was not rigorous enough and needs to be remediated.

 

If the child has had 6 years of math advanced high school math, 6 years of science advanced high school science, is a strong writer, but did not have one of the required history classes, that might be a different matter.

 

What schools were these rejection letters from and how well did the kids do on SAT/ACTs? And did the kids have other wonderful things they did in place of the standard subjects? Were these kids actually college ready?

Edited January 21, 2016 by Pen

[daijobu]

  Because students are told these are the hoops they are supposed to jump through.  So they jump through the hoops and someone comes along and poos on that?  Anyone who could manage 10 APs can't be a total sluff.  KWIM?

 

 

 

I hear ya.  It's like working hard versus working smart.  Either path gets you there.  

 

Amended to add:  The very best students manage to do both.

Edited January 21, 2016 by daijobu

[Lolly]

I don't know what the current situation is with getting into vet school, but think it would be probably harder to get into vet school having started out at a community college, especially if the reason for being at community college is that high school was not rigorous enough and needs to be remediated.

Why? They are going to be looking at whether or not prerequisite classes have been taken, college grades, and test scores on GRE and/or MCAT. How much experience in the area has the student managed to accomplish? At this point, it is the grades that matter. Whether or not CC was in the equation doesn't seem to be important if the grades are there. An inferior CC class would be expected to show up in later grades/classes those last years. Granted, I do not know the admissions people at any vet schools, but I do know kids who are going the CC route and being accepted into grad schools in science, math, and engineering fields. It almost seems to be at a higher rate than those going 4 yr to start with.

[Pen]

Why? They are going to be looking at whether or not prerequisite classes have been taken, college grades, and test scores on GRE and/or MCAT. How much experience in the area has the student managed to accomplish? At this point, it is the grades that matter. Whether or not CC was in the equation doesn't seem to be important if the grades are there. An inferior CC class would be expected to show up in later grades/classes those last years. Granted, I do not know the admissions people at any vet schools, but I do know kids who are going the CC route and being accepted into grad schools in science, math, and engineering fields. It almost seems to be at a higher rate than those going 4 yr to start with.

 

 

If the child is interested in vet school, as in hoping to get a DVM degree, not as in vet tech or vet assistant training: they are highly competitive. (eta, not as in single digit type percent competitive like getting into Harvard, but maybe 50/50 admit rate over all, more for less competitive schools, lower for more competitive ones.)

 

CC start  certainly does not make it impossible.  In theory starting as a vet tech from CC or with pre-vet focus at CC can lead to DVM. The only person I know personally who tried to do that could not get into any US vet school, though ultimately he did manage to get into one overseas. That probably colors my view. If I knew a bunch or even one who had been successful via the CC route, I'd be thinking differently. So, YMMV.

 

I'd want to know the ultimate admit rate for vet school from a particular CC I might go to--understanding that there'd be a 2 year gap.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Pen

[daijobu]

I was chatting with a surgeon on the admissions committee of a prestigious (top 5) med school, who told me how impressed he was with an applicant who had attended cc for a couple of years before transferring to state U.  The student showed maturity in saving money and getting a superior education with smaller class sizes and caring teachers.  

 

Now, admission to med school is easy-peasy compared to admission to vet school, so this may not apply to your situation. 

[Pen]

I was chatting with a surgeon on the admissions committee of a prestigious (top 5) med school, who told me how impressed he was with an applicant who had attended cc for a couple of years before transferring to state U.  The student showed maturity in saving money and getting a superior education with smaller class sizes and caring teachers.  

 

Now, admission to med school is easy-peasy compared to admission to vet school, so this may not apply to your situation. 

 

 

I think the overall admission rate for both Med and Vet are that about 50% of applicants get in somewhere.

 

There are fewer Vet schools though, and some reserve many spots for state residents, so it could seem much better or worse depending on if someone is or isn't a resident of such a state.

 

I'm not sure if the applicant the surgeon was impressed with was in the same situation though as this thread's title refers to "relaxed homeschoolers."  It might have been a student who had fulfilled all requirements that could have gotten him/her into a 4 year uni, but chose cc for the reasons described by you above. This might be looked at differently than a student who had had only a couple of years of high school math and science due to "relaxed" approach and could not get into a 4 year uni. due to not having met the requirements, due to "relaxed" which might also be considered "slacker" approach. Or not. Maybe Vet schools will be impressed by the relaxed hs -> cc -> transfer to 4 yr school approach.  Maybe OPs dd will give it a try and report back on result. Especially if they are in a state with many spots reserved  for state residents at a Vet school, maybe it will work out very well.  And, of course, this would presume that OP's dd would do very well at cc and the 4 yr place she transfers to and fulfill all entrance requirements that the vet school has.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Pen

[daijobu]

 

 

I'm not sure if the applicant the surgeon was impressed with was in the same situation though as this thread's title refers to "relaxed homeschoolers."  It might have been a student who had fulfilled all requirements that could have gotten him/her into a 4 year uni, but chose cc for the reasons described by you above. This might be looked at differently than a student who had had only a couple of years of high school math and science due to "relaxed" approach and could not get into a 4 year uni. due to not having met the requirements, due to "relaxed" which might also be considered "slacker" approach. Or not. Maybe Vet schools will be impressed by the relaxed hs -> cc -> transfer to 4 yr school approach.  Maybe OPs dd will give it a try and report back on result. Especially if they are in a state with many spots reserved  for state residents at a Vet school, maybe it will work out very well.  And, of course, this would presume that OP's dd would do very well at cc and the 4 yr place she transfers to and fulfill all entrance requirements that the vet school has.

 

True, true.  In my zeal to share an anecdote, I didn't consider how relevant it was to the OP.  He wasn't even a homeschooler, for gosh sakes, at least as far as I know.  And you are correct that it could have been a matter of choice to attend cc rather than for lack of academic credentials.  

 

I don't want to do a disservice to OP by painting an overly optimistic picture.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I was asked this question last week and I didn't have an answer and thought perhaps someone here could enlighten me.  In my state, there is a state wide admission policy for all public universities.  4 years of science, including Biology, Chemistry and Physics is required.  4 years of math, 4 years of English, 2 years of Foreign Language, Government, Economics, World History, American History and a few more are requirements.  The larger more competitive universities can then require additional courses, for example if you are applying to a university's college of engineering, you would be required to have had at Calculus.

 

One of my DD's is interested in veterinarian school, so I've been looking at various colleges around the country.  It appears that these type of requirements are pretty typical.  One school even has a form that must be filled out if you did not take the required class detailing why each class was skipped. 

 

So...... in light of these requirements a couple of kids in my homeschool group got rejected from the universities they applied too last fall.  This has started a good bit of concern and stress about college admittance among the members and the question of how relaxed/unschooled students get into college?  

 

Thanks for any insight!

 

I think there may be several things in play here.

 

Some homeschool families hold on to the idea that anything done in homeschool is better than anything that is available at a public school.  Sometimes this is presented as the fact that local schools are dangerous or substandard and the homeschoolers are able to do more academically than would be possible in the school.  Sometimes it's a question of students who have special needs at either end of the spectrum, that wouldn't be met in school.  But often it's just an attitude that homeschooling has some special sauce that makes it inherently better.  I think this is a naive and self-serving concept, that isn't shared by admissions departments.  Especially if the admissions departments have previously admitted homeschoolers who struggled (academically or with the college environment)

 

I think part of it stems from the differing meanings that people have when they say homeschooling or relaxed or unschooling. For some families that may mean deep interest-led studies.  For other families it may mean a lot of watching You Tube or the History Channel.  There is a difference between being out of the box, but still covering topics in history or science in ways that prepare a student for college work (ex. History Day Competition, reenactments or history site docent, independent science investigations) and just doing what you feel like on Tuesday.  Colleges are looking for students who will succeed at college level work, which includes a lot of reading, writing, math, etc.  In some way, the applicant (and whoever fills the role of counselor and transcript writer) needs to convey that readiness.

 

Homeschoolers already come with a lot of asterisks and exceptions.  They don't have class rank.  They may nothave teacher recommendations from outside the family.  The gpa may only reflect work graded by the parents.  The more in demand a college is, the less they are going to want to work to figure out if a particular applicant is a good risk.  Also large state schools seem less willing/able to consider unusual transcripts than smaller schools that can review each application individually.  

 

So a student who is applying to an in demand school, with test scores that are average or below average, no outside courses, a transcript that doesn't reflect the course expectations of the college, no outside recommendations, etc, really is giving the college very little reason to say yes.  A student who delves into unusual topics, but has test scores that are higher than the school's average, a transcript that shows how the unusual course of independent study still met most of the college's expectations, recommendations from non-family members who are familiar with the student's particular interests, and who maybe includes some data points like placing in essay contests or leading a group on a project or doing a particular internship or outside certification, gives the college some grounds to support an acceptance.

 

There are naive students and families out there among homeschoolers and traditional schoolers (ex. the recent thread on legacy admissions).  Sometimes families take the example of an exceptional student and assume that their kid will have similar results, even with a very different set of skills and experiences.  

[Shellydon]

Thanks all.  We are pretty traditional, so the concept of relaxed or unschooled approaches does not resonate with me at all.  However, I am on the board of our group and want to try and help parents navigate this kind of stuff in the future.  The general 'feel' has always been that colleges will accept homeschoolers without the traditional courses.  However, I guess that if your SAT scores aren't really high, then that isn't the case.  If you haven't take Alg II or Geometry, then good SAT scores are far less likely.    Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts.  Much to mull over and share.

[chiguirre]

Thanks all.  We are pretty traditional, so the concept of relaxed or unschooled approaches does not resonate with me at all.  However, I am on the board of our group and want to try and help parents navigate this kind of stuff in the future.  The general 'feel' has always been that colleges will accept homeschoolers without the traditional courses.  However, I guess that if your SAT scores aren't really high, then that isn't the case.  If you haven't take Alg II or Geometry, then good SAT scores are far less likely.    Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts.  Much to mull over and share.

If you haven't taken Alg II, I doubt you'll place out of remedial courses on a CC accuplacer.  You really need to do high school math to be able to tackle College Algebra. In Texas, College Algebra or an equivalent course is required to fulfill the statewide core. You can be flexible with many things but, IMHO, you need to learn the equivalent of high school math to move on to higher education and be successful.

[justasque]

Thanks all.  We are pretty traditional, so the concept of relaxed or unschooled approaches does not resonate with me at all.  However, I am on the board of our group and want to try and help parents navigate this kind of stuff in the future.  The general 'feel' has always been that colleges will accept homeschoolers without the traditional courses.  However, I guess that if your SAT scores aren't really high, then that isn't the case.  If you haven't take Alg II or Geometry, then good SAT scores are far less likely.    Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts.  Much to mull over and share.

 

You might want to consider asking an admissions rep from a local school (or two or three) to do a presentation for your group on what they are looking for in a homeschooled applicant.  I'd invite both parents and students to attend, so they both understand what they will need to do to be ready by the time applications are due.

[Shellydon]

You might want to consider asking an admissions rep from a local school (or two or three) to do a presentation for your group on what they are looking for in a homeschooled applicant.  I'd invite both parents and students to attend, so they both understand what they will need to do to be ready by the time applications are due.

 

This is a really great idea!

[Lolly]

Thanks all.  We are pretty traditional, so the concept of relaxed or unschooled approaches does not resonate with me at all.  However, I am on the board of our group and want to try and help parents navigate this kind of stuff in the future.  The general 'feel' has always been that colleges will accept homeschoolers without the traditional courses.  However, I guess that if your SAT scores aren't really high, then that isn't the case.  If you haven't take Alg II or Geometry, then good SAT scores are far less likely.    Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts.  Much to mull over and share.

 

Honestly, I think that the "general feel" is just wrong. An occasional homeschooler might be able to talk themselves up enough or have high enough scores to get around requirements colleges set forth, but most are going to to be required to meet requirements. (Thus the lovely root word use...) Even WITH high scores, most colleges are not going to waive their requirements. You are far more likely to be admitted meeting requirements and having low test scores to back them up. I would advise homeschoolers to consider what/where their dc will want to attend college as they are entering high school and plan accordingly based on what those colleges want. Same for an athlete who has to meet NCAA requirements. If anything, they can make a plan that will be accepted on paper and then teach/learn according to their own standards. Example; have a text book and classes named that will be smiled upon by the appropriate officials. Then, use the text as a reference (which may or may not by referred to often) while doing most work in another manner. Yes, you may have to take some classes you didn't want to take. Those classes, you may spend less time/emphasis on. It is important to jump the appropriate hoop. The actual jumping can use a little creativity.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Thanks all.  We are pretty traditional, so the concept of relaxed or unschooled approaches does not resonate with me at all.  However, I am on the board of our group and want to try and help parents navigate this kind of stuff in the future.  The general 'feel' has always been that colleges will accept homeschoolers without the traditional courses.  However, I guess that if your SAT scores aren't really high, then that isn't the case.  If you haven't take Alg II or Geometry, then good SAT scores are far less likely.    Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts.  Much to mull over and share.

 

Is there a cohort of older students who were associated with the group and then did go on to college, or do the recent applicants represent some of the first students in the group to apply to college?

 

If the first situation is the case, maybe you could get some of the grads or their parents to talk about their high school journey and what colleges they were accepted at with what kind of documentation.

 

If the latter is the case, it may be a good time for people to reassess their assumptions.

 

 

One other thing that I've observed is that as homeschooling becomes more mainstream, some of the special cachet of homeschooling may have worn off.  The more that homeschooling becomes another valid option, the more that the students will be judged on their merits without homeschooling being a hook.  Also, as the threshold of difficulty to homeschool lowers (ie, less grumping from family, fewer odd looks from friends and neighbors, more available curriculum), there are more people choosing homeschooling.  That means that the spectrum of achievement of homeschoolers also widens.  

 

I guess my big take away (with one headed to college in the fall) is that homeschooling hasn't been a stumbling block to college applications.  It has provided the opportunity for my kids to do some solid academics that shows in a transcript with good grades, interesting coursework, AP scores and high SAT scores.  Homeschooling itself did not provide a means of papering over a lack of academic experiences or good test scores.

[tj_610]

Lots of good stuff here. Thank you for all the help. A few contributions that may be rubbish, but here they are:

1) When we switched to homeschooling, we knew it would present some college-admission challenges. Part of "counting the cost"!

2) If your kid can get even a slightly above-average SAT/ACT score, there are decent colleges that aren't that hard to get into.

3) There are schools that like homeschooled kids - mostly Christian (Liberty, Cedarville, etc.) or top-tier schools that like the mavericks with the "hook" - started own business, music as mentioned, etc.

4) The hard spot seems to be really good schools, but not Ivy League/Duke/Stanford. For instance, my DS is interested in places like Georgia Tech, Carnegie-Mellon, Clemson. He's got the ability; we just need to determine if that is actually "worth it", and if so, how to "package him" for admissions committee.

5) We live in NC; NC State for engineering would be totally fine! Neighbor had a son who got his degree there and is now getting a Master's engineering degree at MIT. Succeed where you are, and I believe there will be opportunity!

6) We've spoken to college admission people. They tire of seeing "all-A" transcripts from homeschoolers. Thus, many depend more heavily on SAT/ACT for HS'd applicants than for traditional kids. Extracurriculars are important; the trend seems to be looking for commitment/excellence in 1 or 2 rather than a long list. Also, dual enrollment with local CC or 4-year college (even online) is a great way to "objectify" your kid's ability. A neighbor who is a college chemistry professor told me that dual-enrollment high-school students are some of the best in his classes. :-)

7) Personal testimony: I was not homeschooled. But I ended up in community college. I had GREAT experience at community college; a PhD taught me organic chemistry with a class of 5 people; took Calculus III and differential equations and actually spoke to my English-as-first-language teacher directly when I had questions; etc. Of course, that was in the horse-and-buggy era. :-)

Without a great record at CC, I ended up at a state school in FL for my last 2 years. I made the most of that opportunity, and despite it not even being one of the better-known state schools, got into a top 10 medical school. Not trying to boast, but here's my point: train your kids to make the most of every opportunity, and there will be a rung up the ladder to grasp. America is still great for that!

Edited February 2, 2016 by tj_610

[GoodGrief]

Lots of good stuff here. Thank you for all the help. A few contributions that may be rubbish, but here they are:

1) When we switched to homeschooling, we knew it would present some college-admission challenges. Part of "counting the cost"!

2) If your kid can get even a slightly above-average SAT/ACT score, there are decent colleges that aren't that hard to get into.

3) There are schools that like homeschooled kids - mostly Christian (Liberty, Cedarville, etc.) or top-tier schools that like the mavericks with the "hook" - started own business, music as mentioned, etc.

4) The hard spot seems to be really good schools, but not Ivy League/Duke/Stanford. For instance, my DS is interested in places like Georgia Tech, Carnegie-Mellon, Clemson. He's got the ability; we just need to determine if that is actually "worth it", and if so, how to "package him" for admissions committee.

5) We live in NC; NC State for engineering would be totally fine! Neighbor had a son who got his degree there and is now getting a Master's engineering degree at MIT. Succeed where you are, and I believe there will be opportunity!

6) We've spoken to college admission people. They tire of seeing "all-A" transcripts from homeschoolers. Thus, many depend more heavily on SAT/ACT for HS'd applicants than for traditional kids. Extracurriculars are important; the trend seems to be looking for commitment/excellence in 1 or 2 rather than a long list. Also, dual enrollment with local CC or 4-year college (even online) is a great way to "objectify" your kid's ability. A neighbor who is a college chemistry professor told me that dual-enrollment high-school students are some of the best in his classes. :-)

7) Personal testimony: I was not homeschooled. But I ended up in community college. I had GREAT experience at community college; a PhD taught me organic chemistry with a class of 5 people; took Calculus III and differential equations and actually spoke to my English-as-first-language teacher directly when I had questions; etc. Of course, that was in the horse-and-buggy era. :-)

Without a great record at CC, I ended up at a state school in FL for my last 2 years. I made the most of that opportunity, and despite it not even being one of the better-known state schools, got into a top 10 medical school. Not trying to boast, but here's my point: train your kids to make the most of every opportunity, and there will be a rung up the ladder to grasp. America is still great for that!

 

I think you are right on with your observations. Some schools are going to require more outside validation of homeschoolers than others (be it in the form of outstanding test scores, dual enrollment success, extracurricular achievement, demonstrated leadership, excellence in writing). Choice of major will come into play as well; I think engineering is going to require objective demonstration of certain aptitudes, for the most part.

[daijobu]

5) We live in NC; NC State for engineering would be totally fine! Neighbor had a son who got his degree there and is now getting a Master's engineering degree at MIT. Succeed where you are, and I believe there will be opportunity!

 

 

7) Personal testimony: I was not homeschooled. But I ended up in community college. I had GREAT experience at community college; a PhD taught me organic chemistry with a class of 5 people; took Calculus III and differential equations and actually spoke to my English-as-first-language teacher directly when I had questions; etc. Of course, that was in the horse-and-buggy era. :-)

 

 

There was an article in WSJ yesterday about how for future engineers, paying extra for a name school isn't worth it.  I'll try to find it and post it here.  (OTOH, a name school is more important for people majoing in the humanities.)  

 

Also, those CC professors are unsung heroes.  

 

Here's the WSJ article.  

 

ETA:  replace text of article with link.  

Edited February 3, 2016 by daijobu

[idnib]

Daijobu, you probably shouldn't copy the entire article here for copyright reasons. Maybe a paragraph or brief description and then a link?

 

Reading the article, I don't see them talking about a certain accreditation that matters for engineering programs. I'm sorry I can't remember what it is, but maybe someone else can add it. I think that's also considered a factor when deciding which program to attend.