11yo bully shoots and kills 8yo neighbour

[abba12]

http://www.9news.com.au/world/2015/10/06/16/40/us-boy-11-charged-with-murdering-neighbour-over-puppy

 

Really? I can't even...... I'm speechless. 

[abba12]

How are children getting hold of guns ?

 

Parent had the firearm legally, didn't bother locking it up securely.

[MercyA]

That's horrible.  :crying:

[Cindy in FL.]

I don't understand this, either. We own guns, which are kept unloaded and all have trigger locks. The ammo is locked in a safe.

[regentrude]

I hope they charge the parent with negligent homicide.

Owning guns may be a constitutional right- but being careless with them and allowing children access certainly is not.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Parents often are not charged with that.  Depends on local laws.  In some places they can leave their loaded and unsecured hand gun on the kitchen table and are not held responsible if their child picks it up and shoots someone. 

 

 

[The Girls' Mom]

*donning the flameproof suit*

It was a shotgun.  It is TN.  It is not uncommon for shotguns to be unlocked here.  I lay the blame more on the parenting of the kid than the accessibility of the gun.  IMO, an 11 year old should be more than capable of using a gun responsibly.  Many, many kids his age do.  Hunting, target shooting, etc.  He could have just as easily picked up a knife and attacked her with it.  

 

It is a horrible, awful tragedy.  However, what should be investigated is what happened to this 11 year old to make him feel like killing someone.  

[Lolly]

We have guns. We do keep them in a safe. (Most of the time...t the moment one is sitting in its case behind my sofa...I tripped on it just a minute ago.) At 11, our son knew the combination to the safe and was expected to use it when he was taking a gun out to use, clean, or repair it. An 11 yo may be a child, but they aren't a 4 yo who doesn't know better than to mishandle a firearm.It is always so easy to just blame the parent, but this boy is the one to blame. I am betting he knew it was wrong. He knew the results of what he was doing. The real question is why didn't he care?

[6packofun]

I don't understand this, either. We own guns, which are kept unloaded and all have trigger locks. The ammo is locked in a safe.

 

And I don't understand this.  Do you keep the gun for protection purposes?  In an emergency, how accessible--quickly accessible--is it with ammo locked in a separate place?  I'm honestly asking, because the scenario I always have in my head when I think about getting a gun myself is 1) keeping it as you have so my kids are safe, BUT 2) not being able to use it in many emergency situations because I need to get my kids first and by then, I'm probably out of time to unlock a safe and put the pieces parts together, kwim?

 

Have you practiced emergency situations with your kids and getting the gun?  Sorry to be so nosy, but I have always wondered this!

[catz]

Hmmm ... well know your own child.  I have an 11 year old.  I know a bunch of 11 year olds right now.  I don't think we can blindly say every 11 year old could be trusted in a home with unlocked weapons 24/7.  Even 11 year olds that would be fine hunting or target shooting.  I consider many kids in the middle school age range to be "in development" and not necessarily be super clear thinkers.  My 14 year old just has come out of a fog in the past few months.  They've had issues with this particular kid and bullying.  That is a red flag to me.  I do think the parents should be accountable, certainly at age 11.  I doubt that 11 year old woke up this morning thinking he'd kill another child. 

[Stacia]

And I don't understand this.  Do you keep the gun for protection purposes?  In an emergency, how accessible--quickly accessible--is it with ammo locked in a separate place?  I'm honestly asking, because the scenario I always have in my head when I think about getting a gun myself is 1) keeping it as you have so my kids are safe, BUT 2) not being able to use it in many emergency situations because I need to get my kids first and by then, I'm probably out of time to unlock a safe and put the pieces parts together, kwim?

 

Have you practiced emergency situations with your kids and getting the gun?  Sorry to be so nosy, but I have always wondered this!

 

I asked this same question over on the S/O Gun control thread:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/565377-so-gun-control/?p=6604647

 

One or two people answered. Here is one of the responses:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/565377-so-gun-control/?p=6604734

 

You can start looking on page 4 of that thread for any other responses too.

 

[Lolly]

Hmmm ... well know your own child.  I have an 11 year old.  I know a bunch of 11 year olds right now.  I don't think we can blindly say every 11 year old could be trusted in a home with unlocked weapons 24/7.  Even 11 year olds that would be fine hunting or target shooting.  I consider many kids in the middle school age range to be "in development" and not necessarily be super clear thinkers.  My 14 year old just has come out of a fog in the past few months.  They've had issues with this particular kid and bullying.  That is a red flag to me.  I do think the parents should be accountable, certainly at age 11.  I doubt that 11 year old woke up this morning thinking he'd kill another child. 

 

This happened practically in my backyard. I didn't read the report that was linked, but reports I have read reported that the "May I see your puppy?" was used to lure the girl closer to the window so that he could shoot her. So, yes, this 11 yo did plan out how he was going to kill his neighbor. Did he wake up with the thought? Who knows. He may have planned it for weeks for all we know. But, it was not just a split second decision on his part.

[Tenaj]

Hmmm ... well know your own child.  I have an 11 year old.  I know a bunch of 11 year olds right now.  I don't think we can blindly say every 11 year old could be trusted in a home with unlocked weapons 24/7.  Even 11 year olds that would be fine hunting or target shooting.  I consider many kids in the middle school age range to be "in development" and not necessarily be super clear thinkers.  My 14 year old just has come out of a fog in the past few months.  They've had issues with this particular kid and bullying.  That is a red flag to me.  I do think the parents should be accountable, certainly at age 11.  I doubt that 11 year old woke up this morning thinking he'd kill another child.

 

The thing is, for generations, children have grown up in houses with firearms not secured at all so why is the current generation so different?  

 

I grew up in a house with all the guns on a rack by the back door.  I don't remember a time when I didn't know that I wasn't to touch them unless with my father.  I don't even know what guns were there . . .I'm sure there was a shotgun and a rifle and probably more than that.  My BB gun was hanging on the same rack and I would get it down without even thinking about touching the other guns.  There were four of  us (siblings) and, yes, I was the compliant one, but some of my younger brothers were not and though there were times of rebellion and disobedience, the guns never became an issue.

 

It seems like something is happening in our culture where human life has become devalued to these kids.  I know I'll get in trouble here if I put out my basic theory so I'll keep my mouth shut but these instances always befuddle me.  

 

I'm quite sure that the 11 year old knew exactly what he was doing and what the result would be.  He just didn't care and I doubt that whether his parents had locked up the guns or not that it would have made any difference.

[MomtoCandJ]

The thing is, for generations, children have grown up in houses with firearms not secured at all so why is the current generation so different?

 

I grew up in a house with all the guns on a rack by the back door. I don't remember a time when I didn't know that I wasn't to touch them unless with my father. I don't even know what guns were there . . .I'm sure there was a shotgun and a rifle and probably more than that. My BB gun was hanging on the same rack and I would get it down without even thinking about touching the other guns. There were four of us (siblings) and, yes, I was the compliant one, but some of my younger brothers were not and though there were times of rebellion and disobedience, the guns never became an issue.

 

It seems like something is happening in our culture where human life has become devalued to these kids. I know I'll get in trouble here if I put out my basic theory so I'll keep my mouth shut but these instances always befuddle me.

 

I'm quite sure that the 11 year old knew exactly what he was doing and what the result would be. He just didn't care and I doubt that whether his parents had locked up the guns or not that it would have made any difference.

The second paragraph pretty much describes my house, even the 20 month old knows not to touch them (they are never loaded in the house, dh unloads them outside). More often than not you will see dh's 20 gauge in the corner by the front door (he shoots nuisance animals like chipmunks, raccoons and oppossums). Growing up we were all taught gun safety at an early age and our dds' are getting the same. Dd1 started BB gun club at the tender age of 5 for more experience with firearms at an appropriate level for her age.

[lea_lpz]

*donning the flameproof suit*

 

It was a shotgun. It is TN. It is not uncommon for shotguns to be unlocked here. I lay the blame more on the parenting of the kid than the accessibility of the gun. IMO, an 11 year old should be more than capable of using a gun responsibly. Many, many kids his age do. Hunting, target shooting, etc. He could have just as easily picked up a knife and attacked her with it.

 

It is a horrible, awful tragedy. However, what should be investigated is what happened to this 11 year old to make him feel like killing someone.

My bets are on this kid having a mental health issue or being somewhat nuerotypical. I also bet the kids school tried to talk to the parents and they were not going to believe it. This happens so frequently.

[Tsuga]

*donning the flameproof suit*

 

It was a shotgun.  It is TN.  It is not uncommon for shotguns to be unlocked here.  

 

At one time it wasn't uncommon to be lynched.

 

Is human life worth less in Tennessee?

[mathnerd]

 I consider many kids in the middle school age range to be "in development" and not necessarily be super clear thinkers. 

This! I don't think that all 11 year olds can think and reason rationally and come to the correct conclusion when faced with emotional situations (in this case, a girl rebuffed him in front of other kids!=!).

 

The lives of 2 kids are screwed up forever by the stupidity of the parent of this boy - one is dead and the other is going to face some kind of legal action at the end of which I am unsure is he will be better off or worse off than he is now.

 

I believe that there is a culture of violence in some households where people talk about "pulling out my shotgun" casually. Hearing that kind of talk will literally ingrain that phrase in impressionable minds that they do not understand the consequences clearly. I have no way of knowing if this family had such a culture - just saying that I have heard that kind of talk a lot - for example, "I will pull my shotgun on any boy who tries to date my baby Princess".

[The Girls' Mom]

At one time it wasn't uncommon to be lynched.

 

Is human life worth less in Tennessee?

That is an unreasonable comparison.  

 

Believe me, I value human life as much as the next person.  This was awful.  But I'm not going to pretend that if that boy made up his mind to kill that girl, that locking up a shotgun would have made one ounce of difference.  This wasn't an accidental shooting.  This was cold-blooded, thought out murder.  The gun was just the tool (out of MANY available to him) that he chose to use to carry it out.  

[Word Nerd]

At one time it wasn't uncommon to be lynched.

 

Is human life worth less in Tennessee?

 

This is an absurd statement.

[Carol in Cal.]

The thing is, for generations, children have grown up in houses with firearms not secured at all so why is the current generation so different?  

 

 

1.  *As a society* we teach rights but not responsibilities.

2.  *As a society* we don't have any universal taboos.

 

As individuals and families of course we do teach responsibilities and taboos, but in doing so we are in a society in which there is a range of them, and they are all optional, not societal.

 

This is pretty unusual in history, and ultimately it is incompatible with either stability or liberty.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.  My guess is that we will go in the direction of tyranny, but I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

[Incognito]

I think that in 50 or 100 years we as a society are going to roll our eyes at ourselves for how we on one hand train children to shoot others and glorify it, and on the other hand wring our hands and complain about people shooting one another.

 

I LOVE videogames and grew up playing far too much.  Now, they are realistic simulations of very violent behavior.  I think it is ridiculous if we don't acknowledge the connection.  Of course there are other issues at play in society, but hours and hours of visually realistic training in violence that many kids have must contribute to de-sensitization.

[Lolly]

At one time it wasn't uncommon to be lynched.

 

Is human life worth less in Tennessee?

 

Human life isn't worth less, but the average child's knowledge of guns is higher. The area where this occurred is extremely rural. An 11 yo old is probably able to take apart, clean, and reassemble a rifle. He knows how to load and aim. He has seen (and probably experienced) first hand the results of pulling the trigger. A kid who accidentally shots another person is one thing; a boy who purposely does it with forethought and intent is another. This was not an accident.

[Lolly]

My bets are on this kid having a mental health issue or being somewhat nuerotypical. I also bet the kids school tried to talk to the parents and they were not going to believe it. This happens so frequently.

 

Honestly, my first thought was to wonder if he was likely a meth baby. It is rampant here. I have nothing to base the thought on. No reports of such at all. Probably wouldn't be reported if it turns out he was.

[Butter]

This reminded me of the teenager who killed a 9 year old several years ago just to see what it felt like (the teen strangled and slit the throat of the younger girl - she did not use a gun).  I don't understand what would lead a child to kill another child on purpose in cold blood.  I also think if he hadn't had access to a gun, he would have found some other way to kill the girl.  What in the world leads a kid to that?!?! (Note the teenage girl was not in TN.)

[8circles]

The blame here lies almost entirely on that boy's parents.  I don't care which state this happens in.  If guns are ROUTINELY left where children can find them THAT IS A PROBLEM.  That is a huge part of this bass-ackwards gun culture which says it's the kid's job to know better.  So, either these are great parents who cared for their child, including his mental & emotional health who should have known better than to leave a gun accessible to a child, or these are crappy parents who raised a child with issues who should have know better than to leave a gun accessible to children.   Why do people argue with this????!!!!!  Don't leave guns accessible to children!!!! Yes- I'm shouting!

 

Could it have been done with a knife or a rock?  Sure, but the little girl may have had a fighting chance to survive.

[Carol in Cal.]

This happened earlier this year.  I have a friend who lives and works in this complex, and it's a wonderful, close knit community.  

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28636108/coroner-madyson-middleton-santa-cruz-was-strangled-stabbed

 

[Butter]

This happened earlier this year.  I have a friend who lives and works in this complex, and it's a wonderful, close knit community.  

http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28636108/coroner-madyson-middleton-santa-cruz-was-strangled-stabbed

 

I hadn't heard of that one.  Here's the one I was thinking of: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/11/19/missouri-girl-allegedly-killed-to-know-what-it-felt-like.html

[Amira]

The blame here lies almost entirely on that boy's parents.  I don't care which state this happens in.  If guns are ROUTINELY left where children can find them THAT IS A PROBLEM.  That is a huge part of this bass-ackwards gun culture which says it's the kid's job to know better.  So, either these are great parents who cared for their child, including his mental & emotional health who should have known better than to leave a gun accessible to a child, or these are crappy parents who raised a child with issues who should have know better than to leave a gun accessible to children.   Why do people argue with this????!!!!!  Don't leave guns accessible to children!!!! Yes- I'm shouting!

 

Could it have been done with a knife or a rock?  Sure, but the little girl may have had a fighting chance to survive.

 

This.  We must hold adults legally accountable when children do terrible things with guns, whether it was accidental or intentional, because it is the responsibility of adults to do everything possible to make sure children don't get into situations like these.  

 

There are, of course, exceptions when children manage to thwart the best efforts of the adults around them.  But those should be the very rare exception.

[Callie]

The thing is, for generations, children have grown up in houses with firearms not secured at all so why is the current generation so different?  

 

I grew up in a house with all the guns on a rack by the back door.  I don't remember a time when I didn't know that I wasn't to touch them unless with my father.  I don't even know what guns were there . . .I'm sure there was a shotgun and a rifle and probably more than that.  My BB gun was hanging on the same rack and I would get it down without even thinking about touching the other guns.  There were four of  us (siblings) and, yes, I was the compliant one, but some of my younger brothers were not and though there were times of rebellion and disobedience, the guns never became an issue.

 

It seems like something is happening in our culture where human life has become devalued to these kids.  I know I'll get in trouble here if I put out my basic theory so I'll keep my mouth shut but these instances always befuddle me.  

 

I'm quite sure that the 11 year old knew exactly what he was doing and what the result would be.  He just didn't care and I doubt that whether his parents had locked up the guns or not that it would have made any difference.

This!

[Callie]

This is an absurd statement.

Agreed!

[SKL]

Children do (rarely!) murder, whether they have access to guns or not.  It is always terribly disturbing, whether they use a gun or not.

 

The strange thing here isn't the gun, it's the mind of an 11yo who would kill just because.

 

That said, I would be surprised if this boy didn't show any signs of having issues that would make a parent extra careful about guns in the house.

 

I would not be opposed to charging the parents for something here, even if it is common in this locality for families to have unlocked shotguns around.

[Cindy in FL.]

And I don't understand this. Do you keep the gun for protection purposes? In an emergency, how accessible--quickly accessible--is it with ammo locked in a separate place? I'm honestly asking, because the scenario I always have in my head when I think about getting a gun myself is 1) keeping it as you have so my kids are safe, BUT 2) not being able to use it in many emergency situations because I need to get my kids first and by then, I'm probably out of time to unlock a safe and put the pieces parts together, kwim?

 

Have you practiced emergency situations with your kids and getting the gun? Sorry to be so nosy, but I have always wondered this!

We have kept the guns locked up because we have a lot of kids in and out of our house every week and I don't want to risk anything happening. A lot of kids in our area will have been raised in homes where there are guns for hunting, but many have not. I am in the process of obtaining a concealed carry permit and will have to think through the safety issues involved with that.

 

I honestly don't worry much about needing to protect myself or family in our home, so I don't have an emergency plan in place for accessing the guns/ammo. I would want all of our kids to go through more gun training than they have had before I'd want them to depend on a gun for defense.

[Tsuga]

The gun was just the tool (out of MANY available to him) that he chose to use to carry it out.  

 

Ah, Tennessee.

 

I guess in Tennessee the homicide ranking (#2) exceeds the gun crime ranking (#10) because people have so many options. Neither kitchen knives nor handguns nor bare hands require permits.

 

 

#5 for going to church, though.

 

At least all those dead people will go to heaven.

 

 

 

 

Human life isn't worth less, but the average child's knowledge of guns is higher. The area where this occurred is extremely rural. An 11 yo old is probably able to take apart, clean, and reassemble a rifle. He knows how to load and aim.

 

Well that's just great. All that familiarity does not seem to have saved anybody's life.

 

 

Disclaimer: My BIL has many guns. I've shot a gun. I don't own one as I have no place to store it. I eat meat hunted and killed with a gun. My nephew and my kids will probably someday learn to use, clean, and store a gun, and shoot it.

 

I still think it's stupid to have so many guns laying around like it's no big deal, particularly if the church isn't able to keep society together.

[Lolly]

 

 

 

Well that's just great. All that familiarity does not seem to have saved anybody's life.

 

 

 

You might be surprised. Kids, in particular, here tend not to shoot each other. I would say that happens less than in less rural areas. They know not to bother a gun. Shootings here tend to be purposeful and, normally, involve domestic violence/crimes of passion or drugs. It isn't a matter of a kid getting a hold of a gun. This case is an exception, though I guess it was a purposeful killing and a crime of passion in some ways. It seems he had it out for this girl in particular.

 

Note: all areas of Tn are not the same. We do have large cities also (which is where most gun crimes are probably occurring).

 

[catz]

 

 

That said, I would be surprised if this boy didn't show any signs of having issues that would make a parent extra careful about guns in the house.

 

I would not be opposed to charging the parents for something here, even if it is common in this locality for families to have unlocked shotguns around.

 

Exactly.  I think there is almost no chance that there wasn't some red flags in this kid and he was just a regular, happy kid up until the day he murdered a child.  And honestly, that to me means a kid with red flags would not have access to violent video games or butcher knives either.  Know your kids and responsibly parent them as individuals. 

[Butter]

Know your kids and responsibly parent them as individuals. 

 

This bears highlighting and repeating.

[Lolly]

Exactly.  I think there is almost no chance that there wasn't some red flags in this kid and he was just a regular, happy kid up until the day he murdered a child.  And honestly, that to me means a kid with red flags would not have access to violent video games or butcher knives either.  Know your kids and responsibly parent them as individuals. 

 

I agree with you. But, just like adults, it is more complicated than just "know your kids". The parents may have thought they did know their kid. They may have seen him as blameless and the victem before. Being able to see and admit that your child has psychological issues is a difficult thing. REalizing and admitting that they may be a sociopath (orslightly  less) would be almost impossible.

[The Girls' Mom]

Ah, Tennessee.

 

I guess in Tennessee the homicide ranking (#2) exceeds the gun crime ranking (#10) because people have so many options. Neither kitchen knives nor handguns nor bare hands require permits.

 

 

#5 for going to church, though.

 

At least all those dead people will go to heaven.

 

 

 

Well that's just great. All that familiarity does not seem to have saved anybody's life.

 

 

Disclaimer: My BIL has many guns. I've shot a gun. I don't own one as I have no place to store it. I eat meat hunted and killed with a gun. My nephew and my kids will probably someday learn to use, clean, and store a gun, and shoot it.

 

I still think it's stupid to have so many guns laying around like it's no big deal, particularly if the church isn't able to keep society together.

Wow.  Just...yeah.  I'm done.  I'm obviously too southern redneck to comprehend the situation.  Thanks for the heads up.

[Tsuga]

1.  *As a society* we teach rights but not responsibilities.

2.  *As a society* we don't have any universal taboos.

 

As individuals and families of course we do teach responsibilities and taboos, but in doing so we are in a society in which there is a range of them, and they are all optional, not societal.

 

This is pretty unusual in history, and ultimately it is incompatible with either stability or liberty.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out.  My guess is that we will go in the direction of tyranny, but I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

 

But then is that really more true of Florida than Minnesota, more true of Tennessee than Oregon, more true of Texas than Vermont?

 

But the violent crime rates are vastly different, and I am not talking bout totals but about rates of death by gun.

 

My state and Vermont have the fewest taboos and most atheism but our total lack of values and emphasis on rights (including hunting and gun rights, by the way) have not seemed to create the same conditions across the board here. Even with the shooting in Oregon gun deaths per capita are far below those in another small rural state, Mississippi. And by the way, rural Oregon is very hick and very rural. 

 

You might be surprised. Kids, in particular, here tend not to shoot each other.

 

I think you're wrong about that: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11834986

 

I would say that happens less than in less rural areas. They know not to bother a gun. Shootings here tend to be purposeful and, normally, involve domestic violence/crimes of passion or drugs. It isn't a matter of a kid getting a hold of a gun. This case is an exception, though I guess it was a purposeful killing and a crime of passion in some ways. It seems he had it out for this girl in particular.

 

Note: all areas of Tn are not the same. We do have large cities also (which is where most gun crimes are probably occurring).

 

I'm aware of the huge difference between rural and urban areas and that most crime does occur in urban areas.

 

However, statistics bear out the fact that rural and small-town Tennessee is also at risk.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15949457

 

http://www.onlyinyourstate.com/tennessee/dangerous-tn/

 

http://ecoreata.com/tennessee-crime-data-map/

 

[Anne in CA]

The thing is, for generations, children have grown up in houses with firearms not secured at all so why is the current generation so different?  

 

I grew up in a house with all the guns on a rack by the back door.  I don't remember a time when I didn't know that I wasn't to touch them unless with my father.  I don't even know what guns were there . . .I'm sure there was a shotgun and a rifle and probably more than that.  My BB gun was hanging on the same rack and I would get it down without even thinking about touching the other guns.  There were four of  us (siblings) and, yes, I was the compliant one, but some of my younger brothers were not and though there were times of rebellion and disobedience, the guns never became an issue.

 

It seems like something is happening in our culture where human life has become devalued to these kids.  I know I'll get in trouble here if I put out my basic theory so I'll keep my mouth shut but these instances always befuddle me.  

 

I'm quite sure that the 11 year old knew exactly what he was doing and what the result would be.  He just didn't care and I doubt that whether his parents had locked up the guns or not that it would have made any difference.

I don't ever remember a time when we did not have several loaded fire arms in our house and none of my siblings, or our friends who came over frequently despite the fact we lived in the middle of nowhere ever treated those guns as toys, or even objects of curiosity. We would NEVER have shot someone.

 

The most perplexing thing about all the shootings on the news to me is that growing up everyone that I knew had guns. Everyone I knew hunted, deer, ducks, quail, grouse, ect. Lots of those people didn't have stellar character and yet none of them shot anyone. What the heck???? Why are people suddenly just shooting people to become famous or get even over small slights??? Clearly there are more and more people in our society who should not have access to guns at all, but we are not Europe and doing away with them seems unlikely.

 

To be honest when my ds was 15 I realized he did not own a gun and I went into a horrible panic thinking what kind of parent doesn't get their kid a gun before they are 15??? We got him a gun for his 15th birthday, lol. That is the culture that  I grew up in. Not owning a gun is abnormal in my culture. If I felt that way, living in a very liberal area like the Portland Metro Area, how do you expect someone in Arizona to feel if you tell them they can't give their kid a gun? To many, many people proficiency with a weapon is part of becoming an adult. Telling those people, who do the living and dying and tax paying in this country that they are living in a "gun culture" and that they are wrong is not going to go over well.

 

When I smoked, more than 20 years ago every idiot who tried to shame me into quitting smoking caused me to light another cigarette. We need to use better methods to appeal to people to get a grip on our culture. After Trevon Martin I finally gave in and realized that some people cannot be trusted around guns. But I'm not giving up mine. I keep them secure, but I'm not giving them up.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

My state and Vermont have the fewest taboos and most atheism but our total lack of values and emphasis on rights (including hunting and gun rights, by the way) have not seemed to create the same conditions across the board here. Even with the shooting in Oregon gun deaths per capita are far below those in another small rural state, Mississippi. And by the way, rural Oregon is very hick and very rural. 

I don't know about your state, but when I lived and have subsequently visited in Vermont, there was a SIGNIFICANT emphasis on responsibilities, that was assumed as a matter of course and that permeated society as a whole.  This was really noticeable to me in contrast to where I was from, and, frankly, in contrast to the out of staters, mostly from Massachusetts, who visited Vermont during the two week deer season every year with their hunting rifles and booze.

 

And I didn't say anything about religion.  What I talked about was taboos.  I don't know of too many societies in history which are/were as taboo-free as ours is.  That does have some dangers, particularly to a free society.

 

It does not surprise me in the slightest if Vermont has lower rates of these injuries.

[SKL]

It disturbs me that an extremely rare and shocking incident such as this is being generalized in any way whatsoever.  The US "culture" does not include 11yos killing 8yos, period.  Just like I'm sure the UK culture doesn't include 10yos kidnapping, torturing and murdering little children, even though it has happened more than once.

[bettyandbob]

I honestly think the parents need to be charged as well. Maybe 11 year olds could be expected to know how to treat guns ( I don't really agree, won't debate) however this 11 year old could not. 11 is still young enough that the parents should have some judgement and control. They could be expected to understand his emotional and mental health as well as his general maturity. And they could be expected to treat guns with the amount of caution commiserate with that level of mental health and maturity.

[Mabelen]

That is an unreasonable comparison.

 

Believe me, I value human life as much as the next person. This was awful. But I'm not going to pretend that if that boy made up his mind to kill that girl, that locking up a shotgun would have made one ounce of difference. This wasn't an accidental shooting. This was cold-blooded, thought out murder. The gun was just the tool (out of MANY available to him) that he chose to use to carry it out.

I hate it when people argue a gun is just a tool. Yes, it is a tool, but not just a tool. With other tools you actually have to get closer to the victim and risk injury yourself. Not so with a gun. The shooter is much more removed from risk to him or herself. A lot of people would not go through with an attack if they actually had to risk body contact. So much easier to kill from afar! Not to mention the potential number of victims in one single attack is much much higher with a gun.

[Lolly]

 

 

You quoted within my quote, so it didn't transfer over. I looked at the links you provided. I don't see them backing you up. None take into account the number of weapons per person in the area. The last even isolates gun crimes to the major cities in TN, the "small cities" mentioned are often right outside of a large city. This area, where I live and this crime occurred, in particular is rather low. In fact, I could use their data (other than the first which actually provides no data or information--impossible to say much anything other than I wouldn't expect anything else from a national group of pediatricians.) to prove my point.

[gardenmom5]

Parent had the firearm legally, didn't bother locking it up securely.

 

in which case, the parent should also be charged.

 

we had a local case of a similar age boy bringing mom's bf's gun to school. (he was going to run away, and wanted the gun for protection.)  it accidently went off (it was still in his backpack) and a girl was seriously wounded.  the mom/bf were charged for not properly storing the weapon, allowing the child to obtain possession. (probably other charges.  the da did have to be a bit creative.)

 

but in this case - they are doubly responsible.  they were raising a bully.  (which indicates they were not objective of the needs of any child - let alone their own.)

[amsunshine]

Another article that reports a few additional details.

[Mergath]

I don't ever remember a time when we did not have several loaded fire arms in our house and none of my siblings, or our friends who came over frequently despite the fact we lived in the middle of nowhere ever treated those guns as toys, or even objects of curiosity. We would NEVER have shot someone.

 

The most perplexing thing about all the shootings on the news to me is that growing up everyone that I knew had guns. Everyone I knew hunted, deer, ducks, quail, grouse, ect. Lots of those people didn't have stellar character and yet none of them shot anyone. What the heck???? Why are people suddenly just shooting people to become famous or get even over small slights??? Clearly there are more and more people in our society who should not have access to guns at all, but we are not Europe and doing away with them seems unlikely.

 

To be honest when my ds was 15 I realized he did not own a gun and I went into a horrible panic thinking what kind of parent doesn't get their kid a gun before they are 15??? We got him a gun for his 15th birthday, lol. That is the culture that  I grew up in. Not owning a gun is abnormal in my culture. If I felt that way, living in a very liberal area like the Portland Metro Area, how do you expect someone in Arizona to feel if you tell them they can't give their kid a gun? To many, many people proficiency with a weapon is part of becoming an adult. Telling those people, who do the living and dying and tax paying in this country that they are living in a "gun culture" and that they are wrong is not going to go over well.

 

When I smoked, more than 20 years ago every idiot who tried to shame me into quitting smoking caused me to light another cigarette. We need to use better methods to appeal to people to get a grip on our culture. After Trevon Martin I finally gave in and realized that some people cannot be trusted around guns. But I'm not giving up mine. I keep them secure, but I'm not giving them up.

 

People are shooting each other because a culture that once used guns as tools has evolved into a culture that worships guns and shooting people as a symbol of freedom and patriotism and doesn't see a problem with this and this and this and this and this and this.

[gardenmom5]

I agree with you. But, just like adults, it is more complicated than just "know your kids". The parents may have thought they did know their kid. They may have seen him as blameless and the victem before. Being able to see and admit that your child has psychological issues is a difficult thing. REalizing and admitting that they may be a sociopath (orslightly  less) would be almost impossible.

 

especially for parents whose child is a bully.  it is extremely rare for the bully's parent to admit their child is a bully.  generally, if they are confronted/informed their child is bullying -  they engage in victim blaming.

 

eta: I don't know if reports are not including the prior complaints of bullying.  from what I read when this first broke - this kid had been bullying this girl for months, and she refused to back down.

I do blame the boy's parents - and I'd assume they'd had reports he was a bully, but did nothing constructive.

[mtomom]

:sad:  I can't imagine.