s/o Duggars-Who joins a cult & why?

[Bluegoat]

I think in the case of Bill Gothard a big factor is probably fear. Many Christians, especially those who lean on the legalistic side of the scale (which can be many of us, if we aren't careful), want a "formula" for producing godly, wonderful, well behaved children. We fear the opposite happening.... Rebellious children who grow up to turn their back on Christ. So when a charismatic, well speaking (and writing) individual comes along and pretty much gives them this "formula," it's wasy for them to jump on it. What these people forget is that it isn't what you DO that leads our children to Christ and away from sin. Oh yes, we are to raise our children in the Lord, however, we are to do that not out of fear of them straying (and thus hopping on a cultish bandwagon), but because that is what God has called us to do as parents.

 

FWIW, I would not say that the Duggars were in a "cult." I like this post about it all.

 

http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2015/08/are-the-duggars-to-blame-how-then-should-we-parent.html

 

Yeah, I think this is often the case, and in Christian cults at least it seems to point to trust issues - they seem to think God is out to get them, or their kids, so they are desperate to prevent it. 

[Bluegoat]

I think there is probably not a hard line to be drawn between a cult and a "group."  I used to live next to a moderately conservative Mennonite community - and yes, to a certain extent they kept to themselves, and with more conservative groups that can be even more true.  But - I wouldn't call them a cult.

 

The charismatic leader thing does seem to be a strong indicator.

 

I have a cousin who seems to have fallen in with something I can imagine becoming a little cult-like - it is, weirdly, a running group organized by a chiropractor.  They all go to these aspirational seminars, drink vitamin smoothies and sell the products, and they all see the chiropractor and seem to think that regularly going - and their kids going - will keep them healthy.  A lot of the psychological effect seems very similar to the appeal of cult groups.

[goldberry]

Just thinking...it seems like people (in general) have always wanted others to tell them what to do in their relationship with God rather than do the work to develop their own relationship. As someone said, either they don't trust themselves, or maybe it's just easier.  

 

The Pharisees didn't develop in a vacuum.  You know that people were asking them, "Is it okay to do this?  How about this?  How about that?" and then eventually they just took the power and ran with it.  It takes both sides, the ones who want the power, and the ones who want (for various reasons) to give it away.

[mommaduck]

subbing to come back to this. I can tell you two very specific reasons. It appeals to people that have been victims or most likely to be victims and it appeals to people that are or would be perpetrators. Both for very different reasons.

[FaithManor]

I think there is probably not a hard line to be drawn between a cult and a "group." I used to live next to a moderately conservative Mennonite community - and yes, to a certain extent they kept to themselves, and with more conservative groups that can be even more true. But - I wouldn't call them a cult.

 

The charismatic leader thing does seem to be a strong indicator.

 

I have a cousin who seems to have fallen in with something I can imagine becoming a little cult-like - it is, weirdly, a running group organized by a chiropractor. They all go to these aspirational seminars, drink vitamin smoothies and sell the products, and they all see the chiropractor and seem to think that regularly going - and their kids going - will keep them healthy. A lot of the psychological effect seems very similar to the appeal of cult groups.

My mom and dad were briefly in one that I consider a cult because it was insular, isolating, and based on fear in the here and now. It was called "Rough Times", an Armageddon preparedness group. They stockpiled freeze dried foods, ammo, medicines...some people in the groul were scamming physicians for prescription meds like pain killer, antibiotics, and parasite meds. The longer they met, the more insular and paranoid they became. They had the sense to get out when the group leader suggested that all family members who were not preparing be shunned so you would get used to thinking of them as outsiders which would make it easier to shoot them when they attacked your supply horde! WHACKO!

 

Interestingly, they never attempted to involve my brother and me in this whackadoodleness. It was also brief. Had it not been, my brother and I had a pact that we would run away to gma and gpa's house which wasn't that far.

 

It is the only time my parents have been looney. It did open their eyes to the dangers which has caused my dad to be so boistrously against Bill Gothard.

 

I think when dad was young, he was a hit susceptible to the sky is falling, the zombie apocalypse is just around the corner conspiracy theories. For the record, the only time he ever brandished a weapon was when he was town constable and a drunk was going to attack him with a broken beer bottle.

[Laurie4b]

I think that "Who joins a cult" is actually not the right question because there is not a particular personality type that joins a cult. I think a better question is "When is a person most vulnerable to a cult?" And the answer is typically when they are at a stage of transition, looser social ties, uncertainty, etc. Transition could be moving to a new area, just having gotten married, becoming a new parent, being overwhelmed with life, etc. 

 

I think another helpful question for prevention is " How do systems such as cults suck people in? (Knowing those signs might better equip us to see red flags before it's too late.)  We are so much more influenced by those around us than we are really aware of.  Just like an abuser grooms a prospective woman, and by the time the first alarm goes off, she's already under some powerful forms of social control, I think the same thing happens in cults or cult-like groups. At first, there are good things and they seem pretty much within normal limits. Some of your core human needs are being met. Cult-like groups are often very loving before you hit the control phase and the control phase is renamed in such a way as that it sounds like love: "for your own good, growth, spiritual maturity" etc.  Whether a group overtly forbids contact with others or just encourages you to hang out with like-minded people (which humans already have a tendency to do--it's just amplified), a "bubble" begins to form and other ideas and inputs are slowly shut out. The group's reality becomes your reality. It's very much like gaslighting in an emotionally abusive relationship. As soon as a rational thought comes up, if it's labeled "crazy" by those around you, it becomes very difficult for the individual to hold onto the belief that the rational thought is in fact rational and not crazy.

 

I think others have already covered the appeal of some forms of cult-like behavior that attract Christian homeschoolers to certain cult-like systems: a desire for more certainty and security/safety than is given us in this life about things that matter to us most, like being faithful followers of Jesus or good parents. There is typically often a subtle or not-so-subtle form of spiritual superiority involved as well: look what we're sacrificing, how countercultural (not worldly) we are... As I said, sometimes that is really subtle and the person caught up in it is a nice person not even really aware of it; other times it's pretty blatant. 

 

 

 

[Ravin]

I absolutely agree! On a sort of side note, this is why these people tend to be exposed as hypocritical way more than just the average person. It's *because* they have such high standards--and of course, fall short--that their hypocrisy is so damning. But we're all hypocrites to some degree, usually. And if you think you're not? Maybe it's because you don't tend to have distinct standards of morality or practice. It's easy to avoid being a hypocrite when one never claims to believe in anything significant (life-changing?) or when one holds very wishy-washy, it's-all-relative kinds of standards. lol This isn't only applicable to religious belief, either.

 

(This isn't a defense of J. Duggar, btw. I've just been thinking about the fascination with calling out hypocrites and notice that pretty much by definition they are the ones claiming that they're trying to hold a high standard. Of course, the standards themselves should be up for scrutiny as worthwhile, good or not, but it got me thinking. Would I rather strongly believe in something that I think is important and true and fall short than never believe anything that really matters in the first place so that I can avoid falling short? The mind turns... LOL And would I ever put myself out there as the poster girl for that truth to begin with? Uh, NO.) Sorry, bunny trail here!

Did you seriously just say here that the only people who aren't hypocrites are those with low or lax morals?

 

I think you are missing one piece here: hypocrisy isn't about falling short of your own high standards. It's about lacking the humility to admit (without first being caught or publicly shamed) that you fall short.

[SarahW]

My mother got involved with the Gothard thing in the 80's, so I grew up with it.

 

For her I think it was a matter of finding holiness and security. Gothard is very much about eliminating from your life any source of evil, whether that be statues of Buddha or rock music or Cabbage Patch dolls, or white flour, or whatever. It also explains how to be very, very, very holy by expounding (aka twisting) Bible verses to apply to all aspects of one's life.

 

My mother is, I believe, lower-than-average IQ, so following Gothard gave her a lot of confidence when it came to what to believe and how to act as a Christian. It let her think that she had the absolutely correct view of the world, and other people were simply wrong. She didn't need to weigh various options and struggle to form her own conclusion.

 

Furthermore, she had issues with her own father. I think Gothard stepped in as a benevolent daddy figure in her mind.

 

Ironically, my mother grew up Roman Catholic, and often went on anti-Catholic rants about people "working their way to heaven."

 

I was attracted to the teachings a bit myself in my early teens. It just made everything seem to clear, and it portrayed such lovely goals which seemed to be just out of reach. My family (and I) gradually fell away from it (I think my dad put his foot down and forbade anymore of it). It wasn't until recently that I realized that it was a cult (yes, it's a cult). Other than my fondness for whole wheat chocolate chip cookies, I'm now intentionally wary of being drawn into any system which promises me easy answers to the world.

[Mrs. B]

Popping in to say I really appreciate the maturity and insightfulness of this discussion.

[kiwik]

I think we all have deep rooted desire for a simple life where we are part of a group. For some a church works or a large family, some join the army and others join a cult. To me it becomes a cult when you agree to go with someone elses decisions even if the go against what you consider to be right or to accept someone else is roght because of his position. It is harder with ministers than doctors of course becauase of the nature of their expertise but if you can't disagree with your minister politely at an appropriate without comsequences then you are in a cult. With a doctor you should be only getting medical advice and be free to get a second opinion without feeling penalised or guilty. I think this is the problem i have with the school principal - he wants the school to be a cult!

[idnib]

Landmark is a good example.  A friend calls it "Scientology for smart people."  It's what EST morphed into.  Everyone I know involved is a middle class professional... educated (college/graduate degree), intelligent, has loving family and friends.  Their introductory classes are about personal organization, communication, sticking up for yourself... presented as a way to improve yourself.  Sounds reasonable enough, and I'm sure much of what they teach is useful... or at least there's some placebo effect where you're more confident just for having taken the course, and that translates into being more organized and communicating better.  Then you take more courses, and have to start spending lots of money on classes, supplies, and retreats.  You're encouraged to cut ties with negative people... so far as I've heard, there's no official shunning, because it's all framed as being a positive lifestyle... but the result is basically the same.  All your friends are now people you met at Landmark classes, and hang out with at Landmark retreats, and the ideas being taught to you are now getting pretty out there, but everyone else seems to agree, and the classes have been working until now...

 

I went to a related seminar (Lifespring) put on by a group who split from the group running Landmark, but I already knew it was a cult when I went. I had a close friend who kept telling me how great it was and it sounded like a cult to me so I kept saying no. This was pre-Internet so it was more difficult to do research. Finally the friend got some kind of deal and thought it would be so great they paid for me to attend so I went. I decided to approach it like a journalist undercover. It was definitely a cult and I was shocked at how some people just submitted to the program.

 

For example, we were given an hour for lunch and they promised us they would stop before 12:00. At 11:55 the wrapped up and said they kept their promise to be done by noon so we had to keep our promise to be back by 1:00. [uh, no we don't.] They also told us that if we couldn't keep that simple promise we didn't deserve to be given this amazing information. 

 

 I'm a bit of a foodie so I already had a restaurant in mind that I'd heard was good. Other attendees were there as well and as the service slowed people seriously started to panic. Seriously panic. They kept looking at their watches, left without finishing, were running down the street in heels, etc. As far as I was concerned, I was paying them for the information and had a choice of whether to partake in it or not. One person was one minute late coming back and was berated and humiliated in front of everyone.

 

Later the really intense manipulation began and people were crying and telling us their deepest secrets. It's like they just fell off the deep end and were playing intensely psychological games in pairs at the behest of a total stranger. I was dumbfounded.

 

This continued for the next several days as well, plus there was a follow up meeting I think 10 days later at their offices. I went to tell them how stupid the whole thing had been and was basically told because I had resisted the teachings instead of submitting to them I wouldn't be able to improve myself.  :001_rolleyes:

 

It was amazing how aggressive they were. I think their strategy was to completely tear someone down and the build them back up, leaving the person feeling like they had somehow improved. And they were incredibly condescending, as if you were ridiculous to not see what they saw, and if you asked questions you were silly and didn't get it.

 

More here.

[FO4UR]

Others have given good answers.  I agree that the same factors that play into DV play into cults.  Both are systems of abuse and control.

 

 

No one goes about to try and get into a cult.  Cults groom, indoctrinate and abduct.  Well, some do go about trying...people who have a strong need to feel that they are a leader at something, but have no actual good thing to lead to, can become leaders in a cult. People who admire leadership, envy leadership, will be easy recruits for the middle-men who lead people to the Leader.

 

A cult is large stock pile of Narc Supply.

 

 

I've known quite a few people who have either been in a cult or have lived very close to the edge of one.  One particular modern cult is very talented at using mainstream terminology to hide what they actually believe.  Ex.  The Holy Spirit is a common thread throughout mainstream Christianity, but this group uses the HS as a hammer.  "It is not HS led." means "It is not cult-approved."  

 

Fear - you wouldn't want your daughter to be a prostitute would you?  Then she must _______.  (Gag me with that spork!)

 

False hopes - If only you seek true holiness, then _______  will happen for you.  In homeschooling circles, if you just put God first He will give your kids wonderful businesses that pay the bills even if they cannot read or do math beyond a 6th grade level.  (Putting God first usually means keeping the house perfect and volunteering every spare moment to the Cult, btw.)

 

Propaganda - Books!  Look at how perfectly perfect!  People...the first time I met one particular person, she spread it on so thick!  As it becomes apparent that I am not joining the cult, the friendship goes from 60mi per hour to completely cold.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kroe1]

The reason people are drawn to cults, in my opinion, is as simple as asking ourselves why we are checking this homeschool board multiple times during the day.

[Pawz4me]

The reason people are drawn to cults, in my opinion, is as simple as asking ourselves why we are checking this homeschool board multiple times during the day.

 

Can you elaborate?

 

I know why I come here -- I enjoy reading different points of view on various issues so I can learn how others think.  For the same reason, when I pick up a newspaper the first thing I look for are the letters to the editor.  Others come here almost exclusively for the information on homeschooling.

 

How does that equate to being drawn to a cult?

[kiwik]

Can you elaborate?

 

I know why I come here -- I enjoy reading different points of view on various issues so I can learn how others think.  For the same reason, when I pick up a newspaper the first thing I look for are the letters to the editor.  Others come here almost exclusively for the information on homeschooling.

 

How does that equate to being drawn to a cult?

Community I think she means. We spend a lot of our lives alone and/or isolated. I am an introvert but I still sometimes wish I was raising my children in the community of my childhood. There is a cult (they would say they are a religion) in the news at the moment. The leadership group (the original Leader was convicted of sex offences) decide what work you do, which hostel you live in and what you wear. Women cook and clean for the whole community and men work in various businesses etc owned by the community. I would get kicked out in about a month because I can't keep my mouth shut and I hate a lot of what they do - But I can see the appeal, no worrying about the power bill, someone to talk to when you need it, support with the kids. I just couldn't give up freedom to think in exchange for freedom from a lot of my worries. But I can see the appeal.

[Bluegoat]

I went to a related seminar (Lifespring) put on by a group who split from the group running Landmark, but I already knew it was a cult when I went. I had a close friend who kept telling me how great it was and it sounded like a cult to me so I kept saying no. This was pre-Internet so it was more difficult to do research. Finally the friend got some kind of deal and thought it would be so great they paid for me to attend so I went. I decided to approach it like a journalist undercover. It was definitely a cult and I was shocked at how some people just submitted to the program.

 

For example, we were given an hour for lunch and they promised us they would stop before 12:00. At 11:55 the wrapped up and said they kept their promise to be done by noon so we had to keep our promise to be back by 1:00. [uh, no we don't.] They also told us that if we couldn't keep that simple promise we didn't deserve to be given this amazing information. 

 

 I'm a bit of a foodie so I already had a restaurant in mind that I'd heard was good. Other attendees were there as well and as the service slowed people seriously started to panic. Seriously panic. They kept looking at their watches, left without finishing, were running down the street in heels, etc. As far as I was concerned, I was paying them for the information and had a choice of whether to partake in it or not. One person was one minute late coming back and was berated and humiliated in front of everyone.

 

Later the really intense manipulation began and people were crying and telling us their deepest secrets. It's like they just fell off the deep end and were playing intensely psychological games in pairs at the behest of a total stranger. I was dumbfounded.

 

This continued for the next several days as well, plus there was a follow up meeting I think 10 days later at their offices. I went to tell them how stupid the whole thing had been and was basically told because I had resisted the teachings instead of submitting to them I wouldn't be able to improve myself.  :001_rolleyes:

 

It was amazing how aggressive they were. I think their strategy was to completely tear someone down and the build them back up, leaving the person feeling like they had somehow improved. And they were incredibly condescending, as if you were ridiculous to not see what they saw, and if you asked questions you were silly and didn't get it.

 

More here.

 

If you don't mind saying, I'd be interested to know what your friends thought of your impression.

 

 

[Katy]

Can you elaborate?

 

I know why I come here -- I enjoy reading different points of view on various issues so I can learn how others think.  For the same reason, when I pick up a newspaper the first thing I look for are the letters to the editor.  Others come here almost exclusively for the information on homeschooling.

 

How does that equate to being drawn to a cult?

 

 

It doesn't.

I come here because most of my friends work, the politics and memes on facebook tick me off (seriously, does no one understand the difference between sound bites and nuance?), DH is too busy to bother during the day, and I feel like this is a decent place for adult conversation.  I learn a lot here.  It's not remotely like a cult.  Completely ridiculous.

[Dmmetler]

I kind of think that some of the big MLM companies have some cult-like features. I went to a getting started meeting for Amway once that a friend had been pushing on me, and that's what it felt like-like "sign here, and do exactly what we say to do, and you are assured peace, prosperity, and success. Don't and you're going to be miserable and unhappy forever".

[Dmmetler]

The reason people are drawn to cults, in my opinion, is as simple as asking ourselves why we are checking this homeschool board multiple times during the day.

It's not exactly a cult, but I think that's one reason why so many parents are so conflicted about putting kids back in school after homeschooling, especially if you're involved in homeschool groups (co-ops and Classical Conversations and anything where you see the same set of people regularly for years). So much of your community, and, really, identity, are wrapped up in being a homeschooler, all your friends that you actually see are homeschoolers, and you don't have the same common bonds. It's even harder if your community is one that is adamantly against PS, where leaving feels like turning your back on them.

 

My DD10 is in the process of looking at early college programs or competitive high schools that would give her the peer group she craves. And I find myself conflicted, not because I feel that the kinds of programs she wants to go to would be a bad choice for her-indeed, I think it would be a very good choice for her, but because I really like my life now, and the idea of leaving it really scares me.

[Katy]

I kind of think that some of the big MLM companies have some cult-like features. I went to a getting started meeting for Amway once that a friend had been pushing on me, and that's what it felt like-like "sign here, and do exactly what we say to do, and you are assured peace, prosperity, and success. Don't and you're going to be miserable and unhappy forever".

 

I totally agree.  When I was in college I agreed to go with a family from my church "on vacation to a Christian conference" and babysit the kids when the parents were doing things during the day.

 

The truth was it was an Amway convention, they wanted me to come with them, and there was a creepy guy who was above them in the sales chain who kept hitting on me.  He was married & in his 50's.  I was 18.  The entire experience was one big creepy cult.  That's probably why I hate network marketing to this day.

[Pawz4me]

My only real exposure to Amway or any other MLM scheme happened when I was about ten ot twelve. Some man my parents knew came to our house and gave them the whole spiel. Even to my young, clueless self the man and the business was pretty creeptastic. My dad was a relatively savvy business man and he picked up on lots of red flags right away. I've always been kind of glad I had that exposure and learned to avoid MLM schemes at a young age.

[Mrs. Y]

The reason people are drawn to cults, in my opinion, is as simple as asking ourselves why we are checking this homeschool board multiple times during the day.

Oh absolutely community plays a part in the draw to cults.  It gives people an identity. 

 

Community and fear of hell.  That does it for many people.  Well, that and some people never knew any differently, having been brought up in it.

 

It's what keeps some of my neighbors from having more than one battery in their flashlights, hanging their buggy lanterns symetrically, and using air in their tires.

[TeacherZee]

Swedish public service television has just started showing a series on cults and in the first episode they talked about how peoples involvement often starts small and then grows. I intend to continue watching it and I will report back

[mommaduck]

Cross posting a comment I made on another thread, because it fits here:

 

Yep, he's really getting "help" (translate that to a hiding out/vacation and more CYA mentoring). Long history that I'm more than familiar with: IFB, Hyles-Anderson, Gothard/ATI, a BJU board member (let me tell you that the destruction of my rose-coloured glasses were complete upon finding that out), Charity Gospel Ministries/CCF, Vision Forum, Federal Vision, etc....there are often two types of people that are attracted to these things. 1) Victims/Potential Victims: those that had a problematic childhood and are looking for belonging, doing things "right", doing things "better" than everyone else, etc. They want a guaranteed outline that if they do A, B, C the end result will be a picturesque family, perfect children, etc...they will have done everything "right" and not "screwed up". 2) Abusers: these are those that often have charismatic personalities, manipulative, narcissistic. They may already be abusers and looking for a place to hide out, those that will give them the excuses, power, and cover for them. The belief system is set up to blame the victim and not hold the abuser accountable. There is a third group...those that were raised in it. Some will fall into one of the prior two groups and others will leave. Leaving may consist of bouncing around, in and out of other like groups, but, hopefully, the deprogramming will kick in with the disillusionment and they move on.

[idnib]

If you don't mind saying, I'd be interested to know what your friends thought of your impression.

 

It was just one friend who was really into it. Basically I was told I didn't get it and there was no way for me to surpass my own limitations if I didn't submit and "let go" and absorb the trainings. By resisting and being cynical, I had made them not work. 

 

The link I posted above went to a page in which 98% of people said they found Lifespring helpful. I do think people were manipulated to be excited and "go get 'em" when they left the program and that's probably when they did the polling. (That's also the time when they sell you the Advanced Training.) But I wonder how a follow-up poll would do, say 5 or 10 0r 20 years later.

[Liz CA]

External structure appeals to people with relatively little/weak internal structure. If someone grew up with inconsistent or neglectful parenting, this gives some people a feeling of security; belonging to a cult has a nest-like benefit. You belong, you are taken care of (that's debatable of course but often perceived as such) and they provide you with lots of structure and guidance.

[mommaduck]

slightly OT: listening to my playlist and realised, you know, at some point I went from Wilson-Phillips to Ace of Base (Hold On/I Saw the Sign).

[Debbi in Texas]

I don't know about joining a cult, but I think fear is the biggest reason people find it difficult to leave.

[staceyobu]

Has there ever been a female cult leader?

[Dmmetler]

Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science) and Ann Lee (Shakers) both come to mind as charismatic women who founded sects of their own, but I don't know that either are considered a cult.

[TeacherZee]

Has there ever been a female cult leader?

 

One of the cults in the program I saw had a female cult leader. This was a smaller cult, but yes it happens. 

[PeachyDoodle]

I kind of think that some of the big MLM companies have some cult-like features. I went to a getting started meeting for Amway once that a friend had been pushing on me, and that's what it felt like-like "sign here, and do exactly what we say to do, and you are assured peace, prosperity, and success. Don't and you're going to be miserable and unhappy forever".

 

ITA. My parents (well, mostly my dad, my mom went along to be "supportive") were heavily involved in Amway when I was in high school and college. There were definite cult-like elements -- especially over-the-top and unwarranted deference to those in your upline. I remember being on the interstate driving back from some conference. It was late and we were all exhausted and just wanted to get home, but Dad refused to go the speed limit because some of his upline were ahead of us, and "it would be rude to pass them."

 

Um, what?

 

There was also a lot of "do exactly what we say and you'll be a millionaire one day" and even some brainwashing-type things, like requiring that you listen to recordings of their seminars daily and "dreambuilding" (i.e., driving around looking at fancy cars and houses to keep you focused on all the *stuff* you were going to buy someday). It was crazy. I was so relieved when they got out.

 

I feel like our current church is on the verge of turning into a cult. There is a charismatic pastor and a core group of "cool kids" (they're all near our age, and it feels like high school all over again) who basically call the shots, and you have to do whatever they say, because Jesus. It's just creepy how the rest of the congregation interacts with these few leaders, hanging on their every word and almost salivating over the chance to serve their vision. This is a mainline denomination, but I have a feeling that the church will be leaving the denomination very soon. They are already distancing themselves.

 

An interesting common thread in these two experiences is my dad. He is quite smart and a successful businessman, but he seems particularly susceptible to these kinds of "mild" cults. I think it's because he doesn't read people well, and also because he is a man of extremely high integrity (I call him the man with no vices). Since he would never intentionally manipulate or take advantage of someone, or try to use them to further his own agenda, I think he has a hard time recognizing when someone is doing so to him. There's giving somebody the benefit of the doubt, and then there's just being naive.

[HS Mom in NC]

Thanks for all discussion! It’s really interesting.

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Love bombing draws people in.

 

http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2008/05/beware-love-bomb.html

 

The family-integrated church we attended was cultish/spiritually abusive. The people were very hospitable and invited other families over for dinner frequently. Also, most people stayed after the service for another 1-3 hours for a potluck meal. We met at a location with a playground and soccer field outside and the numerous kids would run around and play for hours while the parents talked. Since everyone there homeschooled, it was the most regular adult conversation many of the moms got.

 

When someone moved, about 15-30 people would show up to help. You were more likely to have too many people (especially too many kids) than not enough. All of the above gave a sense of (possibly largely false) community that is missing in so much of our country.

 

We've been gone almost five years and I've yet to come across another group of people even a fraction as interested in spending time with someone new to a group. Everywhere else I go people seem too busy to be interested in new friends. Now of course I don't miss the legalism, gossip, and busybody leaders. And I guess the community wasn't truly real because our "friends" (except for one family) dumped us after we left. But for a while, before our eyes were opened, it was the only time DH and I had a large group of friends and felt like we fit in.

[DhanyaCali]

Hey guys. My husband I were both initiated members of ISKCON (the Hare Krishna movement) for a full decade each. We are Methodist now.

 

So I guess DH and I join cults? Neither of us was brought up religious or atheist as a child, so there was room for something.

 

It is s legit cult, although the diet is highly varied and high in protein, so I'll give em that. Rally REALLY good food. Some other unhealthy stuff. Some places more cultish than others, some communities borderline healthy and functional.

 

We left after some bad stuff. So very happy that we did,

 

Happy to answer any Q's, so long as no one calls me an idiot. Only I am allowed to call past me an idiot! :)

[happi duck]

...

I feel like our current church is on the verge of turning into a cult. There is a charismatic pastor and a core group of "cool kids" (they're all near our age, and it feels like high school all over again) who basically call the shots, and you have to do whatever they say, because Jesus. It's just creepy how the rest of the congregation interacts with these few leaders, hanging on their every word and almost salivating over the chance to serve their vision. This is a mainline denomination, but I have a feeling that the church will be leaving the denomination very soon. They are already distancing themselves.

 

An interesting common thread in these two experiences is my dad. He is quite smart and a successful businessman, but he seems particularly susceptible to these kinds of "mild" cults. I think it's because he doesn't read people well, and also because he is a man of extremely high integrity (I call him the man with no vices). Since he would never intentionally manipulate or take advantage of someone, or try to use them to further his own agenda, I think he has a hard time recognizing when someone is doing so to him. There's giving somebody the benefit of the doubt, and then there's just being naive.

Wow...you described our experience with a cultish church. The cool kids and the pastor worship...ick. We left and were "punished". It really messed us up, especially me.

 

Thanks for what you shared about your dad. I see myself in what you wrote and I think it will help me!

[happi duck]

...so long as no one calls me an idiot. Only I am allowed to call past me an idiot! :)

I've been hesitant to post because I feel like an idiot sometimes! I'm tough enough on myself I don't need anyone else being hard on me too!

 

:)

[DhanyaCali]

What's that? You want #TBT cult pics? ;)

 

 

 

EDIT, I'm  in the aviators ;)

[LucyStoner]

Dhanya- why do you think you joined and why did you decide to leave? Was it hard to leave?

[PeachyDoodle]

Wow...you described our experience with a cultish church. The cool kids and the pastor worship...ick. We left and were "punished". It really messed us up, especially me.

 

Thanks for what you shared about your dad. I see myself in what you wrote and I think it will help me!

 

I'm glad it helped. I have spent many hours thinking about this, because my dad is a smart, well-adjusted guy. It's fascinating to me how he can be so easily snowed by people he perceives to be in "authority." Plus, I can be somewhat like him, though I think to a lesser degree, but thankfully I have dh, whose nutjob radar is unparalleled.

 

I really hope I'm wrong about our church. Like, really really hope. But the whole atmosphere just creeps me out. We are adding new members every week, too, and I just think it's not going to end well. :(

[Retired]

Cross posting a comment I made on another thread, because it fits here:

 

Yep, he's really getting "help" (translate that to a hiding out/vacation and more CYA mentoring). Long history that I'm more than familiar with: IFB, Hyles-Anderson, Gothard/ATI, a BJU board member (let me tell you that the destruction of my rose-coloured glasses were complete upon finding that out), Charity Gospel Ministries/CCF, Vision Forum, Federal Vision, etc....there are often two types of people that are attracted to these things. 1) Victims/Potential Victims: those that had a problematic childhood and are looking for belonging, doing things "right", doing things "better" than everyone else, etc. They want a guaranteed outline that if they do A, B, C the end result will be a picturesque family, perfect children, etc...they will have done everything "right" and not "screwed up". 2) Abusers: these are those that often have charismatic personalities, manipulative, narcissistic. They may already be abusers and looking for a place to hide out, those that will give them the excuses, power, and cover for them. The belief system is set up to blame the victim and not hold the abuser accountable. There is a third group...those that were raised in it. Some will fall into one of the prior two groups and others will leave. Leaving may consist of bouncing around, in and out of other like groups, but, hopefully, the deprogramming will kick in with the disillusionment and they move on.

 

I agree with you on this.  My parents both came from abusive homes and my dad had PTSD.  They both were looking for how to make a perfect family.  They church had the rule book and it was something they could follow.

 

I  have in-laws were in a similar cultish church. THe husband came from physically abuse home and my SIL they had dysfunction.  They were ripe for the stuff.

 

 They finally started seeing the issue with the church always being broke.  The pastor controlling nature.  They left a few years ago after 15 years.  I've watch my SIL go from sex slave  wife to a happy women.  Thank goodness that got out.    My BIL didn't really want her or the kids around me because of my background.  I was always making comments about its Ok for women to do this or that.   I only saw them for a few hour around Christmas for years.  I tried to break through to them in a gentle way.  She would sit so quietly unnaturally "meek" and whisper.  It broke my heart.   My niece is so much like myself and I was watching her suffocate being the right type of Christian young lady instead of who she really wanted to be.  She has now just started college.  I've been praying for years they would get out.

[PrincessMommy]

I think things must have changed with Gothard... or at least the cultural landscape changed.  I remember my parents along with many of their church friends went to ATI seminars when I was a teen in the early 80s.  I don't know why I never went, but I didn't.   My dh did when he was single.  None of the people I know, who went at that time, seemed to have gotten sucked into it.  A lot seemed to say things like "He made a lot of good points." and then moved on.  It was really not that big of a deal, and my church was pretty conservative. 

 

It probably helped that in my area there was a church that was very cult-like and caused a lot of controversy at that time.  It had hurt several Christians in our area due to their shepherding movement and shunning of members who "sinned", some of them ended up at our church (some were my dh's family members).  I do wonder if our pastor was already a bit on alert to certain behaviors and kept a lid on ATI.. I'll never know. 

 

But, back to ATI....  a few years later, once I was married and had kids and started homeschooling, suddenly Gothard was a "thing" again, esp. within the homeschooling community. But it seemed much more like a "Christian Lifestyle" choice rather than some basic Christian points about dating, marriage, and parenting.   This was at the time it was hard to find much about homeschooling and we were pretty fringe.  Mary Pride and Cheryl Seelhoff (Gentle Spirit) were pretty influential people and I think they were involved with ATI (esp. Pride) without actually promoting Gothard's stuff (at that time). 

 

Interesting thing is that cult-like church in my area has also imploded in the last few years due to sexual scandal cover-ups. I could have told them it wouldn't end well 35yrs ago!!  But, I was too worldly and judgey..    It's sad...so many hurt people including several more family members.   The pastor has gone off to another state to start another ministry.. jerk.

[Tanaqui]

The Pharisees didn't develop in a vacuum.  You know that people were asking them, "Is it okay to do this?  How about this?  How about that?" and then eventually they just took the power and ran with it.  It takes both sides, the ones who want the power, and the ones who want (for various reasons) to give it away.

 

Tangent: Isn't the modern rabbinical Jewish tradition descended from the Pharisees? They're not universally The Bad Guys.

 

[DhanyaCali]

Dhanya- why do you think you joined and why did you decide to leave? Was it hard to leave?

 

Hmm, well I met the devotees (Hare Krishnas) when I was like 15 or 16, my mom had been doing yoga with them, and some spiritual stuff, chanting etc. So I was around them a lot on high school, we were at the temple a lot. I read a lot of the books and scriptures, they seemed to make sense, went to the temple a lot, decided I really wanted to follow this path to get close to God. Had the attraction of not being a "Sunday only" religion (which is how devotees view Christianity). started chanting (~2hrs a day, it is similar to rosary prayers maybe?), trying to follow the regulative principles (which incidentally I still follow today btw, except for coke a cola) no gambling, meat eating, intoxication or illicit sex.

 

So yeah, nothing dramatic, like I said I was raised in an extremely neutral environment spiritually, not atheist, not a member of anything. I went to church for a few years as a child, I made my Grammy take me so I could learn about God and Jesus and the Bible, but then left out of dissatisfaction with a few things, and general teenager-iness. So this came along, a pretty intense lifestyle where you literally do every. single. thing. for God and as a means of connecting with Him. So I was EXTREMELY ripe for something spiritual and religious, this must have also had an appeal by means of not being "the man" of that makes sense? It validated my vegetarian mores.

 

So I got more and more serious about my practice and spiritual life, got initiated shortly after I graduated high school and started college. Lived sometimes at temples sometimes at home, traveled the world doing different festivals, youth group trips, programs etc. Met DH at a festival, we got married (obviously!) had Dasa, then moved out to a farm community in PA. That place was where all the flaws of the movement fell upon our head in a big, bad way. Like I said some places in ISCKON are fairly functional and healthy. NOT GITA NAGARI! Nope. That place is a straight up cult commune and we had bad times there. G2g cook brekkies right now but I will come answer the second half of your question later!

 

Linkage to our old commune

http://www.gitanagari.org/

[blackjackoaktree]

Hmm, well I met the devotees (Hare Krishnas) when I was like 15 or 16, my mom had been doing yoga with them, and some spiritual stuff, chanting etc. So I was around them a lot on high school, we were at the temple a lot. I read a lot of the books and scriptures, they seemed to make sense, went to the temple a lot, decided I really wanted to follow this path to get close to God. Had the attraction of not being a "Sunday only" religion (which is how devotees view Christianity). started chanting (~2hrs a day, it is similar to rosary prayers maybe?), trying to follow the regulative principles (which incidentally I still follow today btw, except for coke a cola) no gambling, meat eating, intoxication or illicit sex.

 

So yeah, nothing dramatic, like I said I was raised in an extremely neutral environment spiritually, not atheist, not a member of anything. I went to church for a few years as a child, I made my Grammy take me so I could learn about God and Jesus and the Bible, but then left out of dissatisfaction with a few things, and general teenager-iness. So this came along, a pretty intense lifestyle where you literally do every. single. thing. for God and as a means of connecting with Him. So I was EXTREMELY ripe for something spiritual and religious, this must have also had an appeal by means of not being "the man" of that makes sense? It validated my vegetarian mores.

 

So I got more and more serious about my practice and spiritual life, got initiated shortly after I graduated high school and started college. Lived sometimes at temples sometimes at home, traveled the world doing different festivals, youth group trips, programs etc. Met DH at a festival, we got married (obviously!) had Dasa, then moved out to a farm community in PA. That place was where all the flaws of the movement fell upon our head in a big, bad way. Like I said some places in ISCKON are fairly functional and healthy. NOT GITA NAGARI! Nope. That place is a straight up cult commune and we had bad times there. G2g cook brekkies right now but I will come answer the second half of your question later!

 

Linkage to our old commune

http://www.gitanagari.org/

 

thanks for sharing this because I never knew what it was but I'd see it in random places growing up in Chicago.

 

 

[SnMomof7]

DH was part of the TM movement for years (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi), decades really. Traveling, working at their health retreats, seminars, European HQ, cooking, agricultural advising etc. quite extensively. He still makes a mean kichari.

[goldberry]

Tangent: Isn't the modern rabbinical Jewish tradition descended from the Pharisees? They're not universally The Bad Guys.

 

Sorry, I was speaking in context of the New Testament Christian environment.  Pharisaical in that context symbolizes legalism, over-controlling of another person's faith.  I have no idea about the modern traditions and did not mean to imply anything about them.

[Mom22ns]

I really think there's something to the idea of belonging.  Of belonging giving you not only an identity, but a way of thinking you are superior to others.

 

I had a friend who was sucked into a cult in college. It was all about belonging. She had been raised in a conservative religious home and hated it. The religion of the cult was no less restrictive, but it was so very strong on belonging and I don't think she'd ever really felt she belonged anywhere before. She couldn't resist. I don't know if she ever got out. She distanced herself from me after getting in.

[Cammie]

Hey guys. My husband I were both initiated members of ISKCON (the Hare Krishna movement) for a full decade each. We are Methodist now.

 

So I guess DH and I join cults? Neither of us was brought up religious or atheist as a child, so there was room for something.

 

It is s legit cult, although the diet is highly varied and high in protein, so I'll give em that. Rally REALLY good food. Some other unhealthy stuff. Some places more cultish than others, some communities borderline healthy and functional.

 

We left after some bad stuff. So very happy that we did,

 

Happy to answer any Q's, so long as no one calls me an idiot. Only I am allowed to call past me an idiot! :)

 

I was just thinking I can't be the only one on here with ISKCON experience!

 

I was in high school.  For me - it was attractive because it was so different.  Shockingly different to my friends.  And I wanted that.  And of course all sorts of "exotic" rituals and programs.  And I agree - great food.

 

In the end I never fully committed.  I didn't like the gender roles.  I didn't really belong.

 

I have always been fascinated with cults and in college I worked for my school's interfaith center.  There were a lot of cults operating on campus back then - heavy recruiting.  The interfaith center attempted to offer an alternative path for those seeking a community to be part of. 

 

Whatever happened to the Moonies??  Growing up in NYC they were big.  My father even attended one of those HUGE moonie weddings.

 

I feel it is often people who feel lost in their own lives who are the best cult members.  People who just want to escape into a situation where all the rules are clear and laid out for them.    It is a sad situation, really.

[DhanyaCali]

I was just thinking I can't be the only one on here with ISKCON experience!

 

I was in high school.  For me - it was attractive because it was so different.  Shockingly different to my friends.  And I wanted that.  And of course all sorts of "exotic" rituals and programs.  And I agree - great food.

 

In the end I never fully committed.  I didn't like the gender roles.  I didn't really belong.

 

 

Yeah the gender roles are laaaaaaaaaame!!!

 

I got initiated by an uber liberal guru who is very much for women's empowerment and an end to mysogony is ISKCON, devotees going to college etc. So my Godfamily was a bit more, eh, liberal, educated, broad minded than your average group 'o' devotees, BUT living in ISCKON for 10 years I couldn't escape the movement wide unhealthy male/female family/bramacari/bramacarini/snyass dynamics you know?

 

Krishna West is the new non cultish, non Windian, movement within a movement in ISKCON, and a lot of it's my God family. I love it, BUT I am not a devotee anymore, and I don;t want to raise my children in a society in such desperate need of de cultification!

http://krishnawest.com/

 

So anyways, when we moved to the commune, Gita Nagari, we were told some things - that we would have a house to live in to ourselves on the property - that Stava (DH) would do all the service and I would just take care of the baby - that there were some projects bringing in Laksmi (money) so that we would make a little money by working them.

 

We got to our house, and we shared it, we had the middle floor, a mom and her 12 yo were above us, we shared the bathroom downstairs, and there was no kitchen in the house. They eventually gave us a gas cooking stove and the upstairs lady bought a microwave she shared with us.

 

There was never any money earned or given to us. We would buy things we needed on a monthly or every other month trip to walmart and they would reimburse us though.

 

My husband did about 13+ hours of service a day, he cared for the cows and ran the dairy, he did all maintenance on the property, cutting wood for the woodstoves, loading the woodstoves, fixing the buildings, pretty much all kinds of crazy stuff. He was extremely stressed and always thought he wasn't doing enough and was afraid we would get kicked out w/ nowhere to go.

 

I stayed in that house most of the day once it started snowing, he would drive me to the main temple building for morning worship and breakfast, then drive me back, and bring lunch from the hall later.

 

We had a woodstove but it broke a month later, so they gave us a space heater. My baby was constantly in his snow bunting or jacket, even inside.. it was so cold. Lot of snow in PA.

 

I started doing early morning (4am) service at the temple, I would drive over for a few hours while DH took care of the baby and then I would drive back and he would go to his service all day and into the night. I started taking on more and more service, cooking, deity worship, stuff like that.

 

At some point in winter we moved into the main temple building. We had 2 sizable rooms to ourselves, some shared bathrooms, and we were near the industrial temple kitchen and the microwave in the dining hall. That building had HEAT and we were SO HAPPY to be in there!!!!!! It also housed many of the other devotees so was less isolated for me.

 

They serve two meals a day there, and not too much. Most of the temple's food for the *devotees* came from the foodbank. Let me put out there that Gita Nagari is a "Self sustaining community" We had an organic far and dairy, we collected those things and sold them as farm shares. The food *we* ate came from the foodbank, we rarely got the milk DH milked from the 4 cows. Obviously this was not advertised to the public.

 

So once the baby went on solid food there was not enough from those 2 group meals! We were encouraged to go on food stamps so we did, we needed that food for Dasa.

 

My neighbor down the hall was on foodstamps as well, she had 4 kids and got a TON each month. She used them to buy organic butter to make into aguyvedic ghee's to sell, and she gave the proceeds to the temple. I was asked if I wanted to do the same but I was like, "Not really," because you know, that's like, fraud and highly illegal. We used ours to buy baby food and also food for DH and myselfm but we didn;t use nearly all we were slotted, because we were just supplementing what the temple already had.

 

g2g get school ready for the morrow, be back with the sad end to the tale.