curious about something

[ProudGrandma]

my 14 year old daughter spent nearly the entire afternoon washing both of our vehicles and vacuuming them out.  They were pretty dirty.   She has never done this before (vacumming yes, washing, no)...she has brothers that usually do this job...but they were busy and she wanted to try.  So we let her.

 

after everything dried, it was clear that there was still dirt on the car...even though she did get the entire car wet with the hose and wiped down the sides with a cloth.  

 

when you look at the car, would the first words you say be "you missed some spots" or would you say "looks like you worked hard but see here, there are still some spots on the car that are still dirty."

 

my well meaning husband said the first and her response was, "no I didn't miss them" which to her was true...because she did spray the whole car with water and she did wipe the entire car down several times.  So to her she didn't "miss" them.  

 

Also, is it true to others that if you start a critique with a negative (even if it is obviously true) you start to get defensive before the positive stuff even gets said?  that is how it is for me.  Is that a female thing? do men not think that way...or need to be spoken to that way? 

 

she lost it before he even had a chance to look inside and see what a great job she did on the inside.  And he didn't even mention the other car....just the black one that showed all of the dirt she missed. 

 

I am not in denial that she missed dirt....and that she needs to be told what she can do to improve upon it...and that she needs to go back and do a better job.

 

All I am speaking about is how it was approached.   Afterall, it was a  new job  and she didn't have anybody explain to her what to do or how to do it...she just did it all by herself...and because of that, I thought she did a great job...but my husband thinks that is lying to her...because she didn't do a great job. 

 

I am not looking for you to take sides...and this is NOT a husband/wife deal...I need to know if this is one more of those, "men think this way and women this other way" kind of deal. Or if he did indeed handle it right and I am being too over protective.  What do you all think??

 

thanks.

[Guest]

I think your husband was a little brief and it could come across discouragingly. My husband can do the same thing, and frankly so can I. It's always, always worth it to build up and correct instead of just tear down. One goes over so much better and doesn't leave the kids feeling discouraged, while still getting the same end result.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I wouldn't say either.  I would  make sure that next time I actually showed her how to wash a car.  It's not like people learn how to do this by osmosis.  

[Guest]

Did she use car washing soap? Cuz if she didn't, then the car would still be dirty even if she didn't miss any spots. You can't add water to dirt and expect a cloth to miraculously wipe off the now-mud/gunk.  So if that's the case, both of you are in the wrong - setting her up for failure.

 

The first words out of my mouth in this situation would be silence until I found something that she did in fact know how to do and actually did well - like the insides.

[DragonFaerie]

I think anytime you need to offer a critique of someone else's work, you should always sandwich it between positive comments.  Start with what a big job that was and how you're proud that she took it on herself.  Then point out an area or two that didn't get clean.  And then congratulate her on how well she vacuumed the inside (or whatever) and on learning to do something new.

[StaceyinLA]

I'm pretty sure if one of my kids washed a vehicle inside and out of his/her own accord, I'd just say thank you.

[Spryte]

I think anytime you need to offer a critique of someone else's work, you should always sandwich it between positive comments. Start with what a big job that was and how you're proud that she took it on herself. Then point out an area or two that didn't get clean. And then congratulate her on how well she vacuumed the inside (or whatever) and on learning to do something new.

This. I was going to bring up the sandwich, too. It's a valuable tool, and not just for kids. One of DH's guys laughingly calls it the "kiss, slap, kiss" but it tends to get better results.

 

I don't think this is a male/female thing, but rather a learned management skill. ;)

 

ETA: "The Sandwich" is actually taught in seminars on how to better manage groups of people, and get better results out of them.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't think it is fair to do the sandwich technique on something that was never taught to begin with.  Or assigned for that matter.  

[Spryte]

I don't think it is fair to do the sandwich technique on something that was never taught to begin with. Or assigned for that matter.

I missed that she didn't know how to wash a car. I agree. I think if she volunteered to do it, and had never done it before - I'd just say thank you.

[Cottonwood]

my DH is a supervisor in the Air Force. He has trouble doing anything but bringing a hammer down. He defaults to me.  What is so ironic is that both my kids did this exact thing to my car today!  They did a great job for a 12 and 14 yr old.  DH came home for lunch and happened to come in the house before the garage.  I let him know what they were doing in the garage and asked him to be supportive if he saw them cleaning the car.  He knows himself well enough to have avoided the garage.  Instead he checked it out then came to me to ask me to go look.  I went out there and looked at their job and genuinely commended them on their hard workl.  I bragged them up but not inflated.  They did miss spots but really worked diligently.  I REALLLLLLY want them to continue to do this job so i found positive things to really complement.  Before we all left the garage, I told them that NEXT TIME they would need to pay a little more attention to the grit in the cupholders and between the seats (snack crumbs) but otherwise i WAS THRILLED!  We all left the garage content and i will personally ride around with crumbs and grit in comparison to what it WAS and the fact that my kids had a good time together (what?) doing a job they didn't want to do and they did a GREAT (not perfect) job at that.  

 

You have to remember the age/capability, the lesson, the motivation being preserved and the fact that you want to stay reasonable to teach them to be such.  OFten, what adults would critique is not even on the kids radar.  At this age, all I wanted to do is impress my parents.  So, if there's something to be impressed about, even if it's just the fact that they attempted it (even if the job is horrible), be impressed by it.  Then, as a super-side note, see if they'll work on ...xyz NEXT time and act thrilled with the curren tjob. 

[Guest]

I'm pretty sure if one of my kids washed a vehicle inside and out of his/her own accord, I'd just say thank you.

Seriously. "Thanks! Good job." Period. Move on with my day.

[kewb]

Business 101. Carrot, stick, carrot.

Your husband started with the stick. No one is listening after that.

I would be thrilled if one of my kids took the initiative to wash and vacuum the car.

[Plateau Mama]

 

 

 

 

I am not in denial that she missed dirt....and that she needs to be told what she can do to improve upon it...and that she needs to go back and do a better job.

 

 

 

 

 

This was the first time she had done it. She volunteered. She wasn't shown how.

 

She missed dirt, yes. She doesn't need to be told (right now) how to improve. She absolutely doesn't need to go back and redo it, unless you never want her to volunteer again.

 

If you feel you must say something I would say something along the lines of "thanks so much for helping, it looks great for your first time washing the car. Next time I will show you how to sponge the car so we are sure to get all the areas."

 

But seriously I wouldn't say anything other than thank you and I would be ecstatic that they offered.

[snickerplum]

"Wow, that was so thoughtful of you!"

"I can tell you worked hard!"

"I really appreciate your help!"

All good things.

"You missed some spots."

Perhaps true, but not kind IMO.

If someone gives me a negative comment and follows with positive ones, I feel like the positives are only trying to make up for the negative. Maybe that's only me. "This chicken is dry. But the flavor is good." The compliment to me then seems fake, even if it's not.

I agree to teach her. Maybe do it together or have her help her brothers.

Regardless, it sounds like you have many helpers - yea! :-)

[Joker]

If either of my dds cleaned our cars voluntarily, I would say, "Thank you!!!". I would also probably take them out for a smoothie down the street. I really wouldn't care if they did it perfectly. The awesome part is that they chose to do something like that without me asking or forcing. They learned something even if it wasn't how to clean a car to my standards.  If they wanted to keep cleaning the cars, I would start showing them how to do it correctly.

[Tsuga]

In my experience, the same people (ahem, men) who claim the sandwich method is soft or unnecessary, themselves get very defensive when it's not used.

 

I try to use the good, the bad, the thank you in critiques with everyone. It seems to work.

[LisaKinVA]

When I was a kid, I'd do stuff to surprise my folks (clean kitchens, organize pantries...clean bathrooms).  Frequently, I got a, "well, it looks good, but I can tell you didn't do it the way I would" kind of comments.  Mind you, these weren't my chores, I was doing them to be nice.  I had worked hard.  Needless to say, I didn't continue the pattern.

 

If my kids voluntarily cleaned my car -- I would genuinely thank them for their hard work, praise whatever I could find, and if there were some obvious spots, maybe say something like, "washing a car can be tricky -- when it's wet it looks clean, you can't really see what got missed until it's dry.  And then, I need to be willing to get in there myself with the hose and car wash stuff and make it a teachable moment vs. a critquie.

 

When it's a regular chorre that they've been taught how to do (explained, demonstrated, guided and enabled) -- it would be a bit different.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I do things sometimes for my dh - a special dinner perhaps or trying to do a chore for him so that he doesn't work so hard.  I've stopped doing them after getting only criticism for my pains.  It's a sure fire way to kill any spark of wanting to be nice.  And I would certainly see right through a criticism sandwich.  

[Incognito]

I think anytime you need to offer a critique of someone else's work, you should always sandwich it between positive comments.  Start with what a big job that was and how you're proud that she took it on herself.  Then point out an area or two that didn't get clean.  And then congratulate her on how well she vacuumed the inside (or whatever) and on learning to do something new.

 

The sandwich is good for a lot of people, but it is horrible for me.  I hate it so much.  I find that I am so insulted that I am being worked in this way that once the critique comes out I feel doubly hurt because I know the first compliment was really an embellished throw in compliment meant to buffer the critique.  I either see the sandwich coming and am annoyed or it blindsides me and I am hurt.  Okay, I'm obviously oversensitive when it comes to critique! ;)  

 

I don't really think either way is best - I think candmforever has a very good way of handling it.  Choose to praise the effort and appreciate the good, giving tiny off-hand pointers towards improvement in the future. 

[Guest]

Whatever you do, you will probably end up kicking yourself for doing it wrong. 

 

:0)

 

[Arcadia]

My dad who does have some issues with social cues is the only male that does that in my paternal side of the family. My dad would be very confused by the "sandwich". To him it would be mixed signals

My brother is similar but at a much milder level.

 

My hubby is used to being polite, I am the blunt parent but I would have said thank you. If it was an assigned chore then I would let my kid know what wasn't don't properly, like some stains on the outside of their cup remaining after washing.

 

ETA:

It isn't lying to say she did a great job. She is doing a great job as a first timer with no prior training and no overseeing while doing it.

 

ETA:

My paternal grandma is critical but can be tactful. My paternal grandpa is tactful. My dad's eight siblings are okay. So odd one out and my dad happened to be the youngest and born during wartime.

[ThisIsTheDay]

 

 

All I am speaking about is how it was approached.   Afterall, it was a  new job  and she didn't have anybody explain to her what to do or how to do it...she just did it all by herself...and because of that, I thought she did a great job...but my husband thinks that is lying to her...because she didn't do a great job. 

 

 

 

If he thinks that telling her that she did a great job would be a lie, then he can come up with truths:  "Thank you so much for doing this, hon!"  "You worked so hard, and we are so grateful!"  "You are such a sweetheart for doing this, and I am proud of you for taking the initiative!"

 

It makes my heart hurt for your precious and considerate daughter.

 

[Catwoman]

I think your dh was way out of line, and I think he should have been very pleased and grateful that she had done such an incredibly kind thing for him.

 

He owes your dd an apology for his insensitivity. And a nice reward for her hard work.

 

Her feelings must have been so hurt! :(

[MomatHWTK]

Due to my own childhood experiences, I can't stand a critical spirit in a parent.  Helping someone improve is great, but jumping right in to find something wrong is just mean IMO.  I doubt your DD will be doing any favors for your DH anytime soon. 

[JaniceO]

I would have said, "Wow, you did a great job! Thank you for doing that for me. Next time just make sure you give this spot a little more attention."

 

DH would have said, "You missed some spots."

 

He is a nuke in the Navy and doesn't have many social skills, lol. Plus, I'm beginning to suspect he acts a lot like how his dad acted.

[melbotoast]

I have had this exact same conversation with DH before. I agree that you should take into account the intent, skill level, etc. before jumping straight to criticism.

[Mimm]

Your daughter will probably be a lot less inclined to do things like this in the future. If this happens a lot, or if she's very sensitive, she may grow to not want to put herself out there at all, or lend a helping hand to people because she'll feel like whatever she does won't be good enough. I don't think it's a minor thing to react poorly to a kind act like this. I certainly wouldn't wash the car of someone whose first words were "You missed a spot" and I'm an adult who can be expected to do a decent job.

 

My husband is very negative, and only sees the missed spots in life. He's learning to restrain his first reaction and tries to bite his tongue till he can say "Thank you for working on this. Do you want me to show you how to get these parts cleaned?"

[zoobie]

My DH and big kids washed the car a few weeks ago with the 2 year old "helping." They missed spots. I said nothing whatsoever other than wow the cars look great! Did y'all have fun? (Because they were wetter than the cars!) I don't care what the cars look like. If I miss spots cleaning the mirrors, no one criticizes me. If my kids are doing their bathrooms and it looks like they tried, I don't say anything. Rarely are we preparing the house for the queen's visit, kwim? ;)

 

Was this a paid chore? I'd expect a service in exchange for money to be done better. I would ask the car wash to fix missed spots. Even the pros do that. Hey, I see a streak right there--swipe that off please? Thanks. Looks great!

 

ETA: If I don't have to do the chore, it's going to be great. That's not lying. Unless she smeared the car with monkey poop and polished with Brillo pads.

[Catherine]

This may be an individual difference.  When I was a kid, or even now, at home, criticism is like poison. OTOH, I did improve my performance for my mom in order to avoid some of the criticism.  But it still felt bad.  

 

I think I would probably try to validate first and foremost.  IF I offered a critique, it would take the form of doing the job with the kid the next time to teach.  

[Ausmumof3]

Mine would totally say the same thing... Then complain that the kids never want to help when they don't want to do the job next time!

 

If it was a love job I'd just say thank you, but if it was paid Id point out the spots and ask child nicely to fix them.

 

Also, I do think it's possible to be too sparing with criticism. With ds1 I really wanted to encourage his writing so didn't point out formation issues which in the long run took ages to correct. It would have been better to prevent bad habits. Kids with parents with high standards do seem to do well overall. But there are always nice ways and right time and place for comments.

[Greta]

No, I don't think this is a male vs. female thing at all.

 

Since your husband has said that not offering unrestrained criticism is "lying", I would take him at his word that he really believes this, and I would offer him some criticism!

 

1. He thought that he was teaching his daughter a lesson about proper car washing technique and a job well done. But he failed to accomplish that. Instead, he taught her that her time and efforts are not appreciated or valued. So he needs to own up to his mistake and correct it.

 

2. Being polite is not "lying". Being honest does not give one a free pass to be rude. Failing to recognize this is a mistake on his part. So again he can own up to that mistake and correct it.

 

 

ETA: I'm a very sensitive person married to a man who is very free with his criticisms. So I make no claims to having an objective view of this situation - rather the opposite. This really struck a nerve! But I still say it's not a male versus female thing, because my Daddy was always kind and thoughtful in these situations. He was always appreciative, not critical. On the other hand, I have known some women for whom nothing was ever good enough. So I firmly believe it's not about gender.

[bettyandbob]

kid volunteered to do a job. Dad criticized. Does dad think kid will do a job voluntarily again? Maybe dad has taught kid a valuable lesson, just not the one he thinks he taught.

[zoobie]

No, I don't think this is a male vs. female thing at all.

 

Since your husband has said that not offering unrestrained criticism is "lying", I would take him at his word that he really believes this, and I would offer him some criticism!

 

1. He thought that he was teaching his daughter a lesson about proper car washing technique and a job well done. But he failed to accomplish that. Instead, he taught her that her time and efforts are not appreciated or valued. So he needs to own up to his mistake and correct it.

 

2. Being polite is not "lying". Being honest does not give one a free pass to be rude. Failing to recognize this is a mistake on his part. So again he can own up to that mistake and correct it.

Lol. How was that TeA for you? Meh. Don't forget spots XYZ next time. ;)

[Greta]

Lol. How was that TeA for you? Meh. Don't forget spots XYZ next time. ;)

:lol:

 

Yeah, um, it's possible that my migraine has made me slightly grumpy. Maybe everyone should ignore my post. :leaving:

[HRAAB]

This is not a man/woman thing.  It's a human thing.  

 

If my dd offered to do a job that wasn't normally her chore, and it was the first time she had ever done it, and she worked very hard at it, both my dh and I would have thanked her for her hard work and let it go.  If the missed spots were quite noticeable, I would probably wash the car with her next time and teach by example.  If they were small, I'd just let it go. 

 

In our home, I would have been the one more likely to point out the spots.  I've learned that expecting perfection and pointing out mistakes first is NOT the best way to help train your children.  In fact, it can totally backfire.  Plus, an honest self examination would show that I'm far from perfect and have occasionally left streaks on the car myself.

 

 

[Plateau Mama]

A few months ago my son noticed the Tupperware cabinet was a mess so he took everything out and straightened it up. He put everything we use a lot in the back and the rarely used stuff in the front. It is really hard to find anything. I thanked him for straightening it up and I left it. It annoys me every day but I won't touch it until the cabinet needs to be organized again. he never needs to know I didn't like the way he did it.

[lllll]

..

[Rebel Yell]

This was the first time she had done it. She volunteered. She wasn't shown how.

 

She missed dirt, yes. She doesn't need to be told (right now) how to improve. She absolutely doesn't need to go back and redo it, unless you never want her to volunteer again.

 

If you feel you must say something I would say something along the lines of "thanks so much for helping, it looks great for your first time washing the car. Next time I will show you how to sponge the car so we are sure to get all the areas."

 

But seriously I wouldn't say anything other than thank you and I would be ecstatic that they offered.

 

:iagree:

[mamakelly]

I washed my dads car once as a young teen to be nice, and he made the same kind of mean comments about missing spots. I was crushed. I never ever washed his car again. I'm almost 40 years old and it still stings.

[OneStepAtATime]

She volunteered to do it.  She had never done it before.  I absolutely would NOT have started with a criticism.  I would have simply praised her for her hard work.  

 

If she volunteered again, I might join her and help with technique, but I would not say a word of criticism her first time out.  

 

But my husband absolutely would have focused only on the parts that weren't done to perfection.  It drives me nuts.  He can't stand it if someone does that to him but he cannot seem to see that doing the same thing to others will net a similar negative reaction.

 

 OP, I think your daughter did great!  Two cars in one afternoon, and volunteering to boot.  She definitely deserves praise!

[Catwoman]

A few months ago my son noticed the Tupperware cabinet was a mess so he took everything out and straighteded it up. He put everything we us a lot in the back and the rarely used stuff in the front. It is really hard to find anything. I thanked him for straightening it up and I left it. It annoys me every day but I won't touch it until the cabinet needs to be organized again. he never needs to know I didn't like the way he did it.

Awwww...that is so sweet of you!!! :001_wub:

[BarbecueMom]

I did a lot of self-motivated cleaning as a teen. If I had cleaned out the car without being asked, I wouldn't have wanted praise or critique. I would have been seeking control. And maybe the car.

[Catwoman]

I washed my dads car once as a young teen to be nice, and he made the same kind of mean comments about missing spots. I was crushed. I never ever washed his car again. I'm almost 40 years old and it still stings.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Many parents don't seem to realize how their kids may take their words to heart, and who will never forget the mean and critical comments.

[hornblower]

It was a gift, a gift of service.

Gifts are to be graciously received and gratitude should be expressed.

There is no room for critique, sandwiched or otherwise, when  you are receiving a gift.

[Guest]

This was the first time she had done it. She volunteered. She wasn't shown how.

 

She missed dirt, yes. She doesn't need to be told (right now) how to improve. She absolutely doesn't need to go back and redo it, unless you never want her to volunteer again.

 

If you feel you must say something I would say something along the lines of "thanks so much for helping, it looks great for your first time washing the car. Next time I will show you how to sponge the car so we are sure to get all the areas."

 

But seriously I wouldn't say anything other than thank you and I would be ecstatic that they offered.

I missed that she volunteered. I. That case I'd just say thank you and offer up some tips for how to make it work better in the future, so she can do a faster job with less effort for good results :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I did a lot of self-motivated cleaning as a teen. If I had cleaned out the car without being asked, I wouldn't have wanted praise or critique. I would have been seeking control. And maybe the car.

A 14 year old who is not legally able to drive is not trying to manipulate anyone into giving her control of the car.  The OPs teen sounds sweet, not manipulative.  

[Guest]

I think how your dh said it may have been a bit curt, but she needs to accept critisism better. My hunch is that if she jumped defensive before he finished talking, she knew it was not done properly and it is dissappointing to work for a long time on something, yet have poor results.

 

I do generally try to say the positive part first, but I don't smile and wave over a poorly done job. A 14yo can tell that there is still dirt on a car or not.

 

P.S. Did she not use soap? Soap is necessary;spraying with water and wiping don't remove all the dirt.

 

ETA: I'm reading everyone else's comments and I see that, once again, my high standards for doing things well make me an ogre. It's kind of a revelation. My kids rarely do a chore out of the blue. I'm sure there is a correlation. OTOH, I don't actually like being surprised that a kid did a job, unless they did it very well.

[BarbecueMom]

A 14 year old who is not legally able to drive is not trying to manipulate anyone into giving her control of the car. The OPs teen sounds sweet, not manipulative.

I was kidding about wanting the car. And by control I was referring to my own childhood and the praise/criticism thing, not the OP's kid.

 

I'll go back to not commenting on anything more serious than dinner ideas.

[monstermama]

My MIL was that way with her kids - to the point that she'd often go back and redo their chores immediately after they'd finished them if they hadn't done them to her specifications.  It definitely caused issues in our (DH and I's) relationship before we sorted it out.  She's mellowed a lot with age and now regrets it.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Unless you paid her what you would have paid someone to detail your car, I would say that this is a "thanks for doing a great job" pat on the back and be done.  Later, you might point out some spots that were missed.  The quickest way to get someone to hate a chore is to criticize how they do it (especially if you don't give them explicit instructions on how to do it right.  )  Yeah, that is why I hate cleaning house ... I have that super critical voice in the back of my head on how I could never do anything right.    

 

ETA:  Oh, on the sandwich ... if they positives are just there to because you are scraping the bottom of the barrel, then it will sound fake.  But, if you do it for the sake of making yourself focus on the positive, then it isn't fake.  I used to teach childbirth classes and we used to tell their partners to make the praise to criticism ratio 5 to 1 because laboring women are very sensitive to criticism and need positivity.  But I also added that striving for that kind of ratio  in daily life can make for much more positive relationships with people, especially our children.  I've heard of people writing gratitude journals.  Why can't our communication with the important people in our lives be one big gratitude journal?