could your 11 yo do this writing assignment?

[mohini]

We have been prepping for the SAT, so at this point my 10.5 year old could. Writing instruction was the major focus of last year because I knew this was coming. He doesn't like it, but he can do it.

 

  What were you using for intensive writing instruction? I'm trying to prepare my 9 yr old for the ISEE/SSAT in a couple of years.... As it is now, I think he would have a hard time writing a cohesive and long essay at 11. We're working on endurance though.

[madteaparty]

Haven't read the rest of the thread.

 

When is the research about this expected to happen?

 

Because my DS can and does write at length. Not 7 paragraphs (It seems like an arbitrary number. Why not 5? Or 11? Or Pick your favorite prime and write an essay in as many number of paragraphs;)) But he frequently summarizes, pretty well with very few mistakes, what he has just read,  in 4-5 paragraphs. If i said use seven, he would use seven. Now, this is mostly regurgitation of what he has read recently. He is not much used to doing research, etc. For example I will ask him an essay question that combines issues/persons covered in the last two chapters of his history book.

 

ETA: He just turned 11 last week. We do very little writing instruction, as a matter of fact our Language Arts curriculum is Galore Park which would be considered "light" by most what I see here. I guess he leans that way, wants to be a writer and all that. I;ve decided not to kill it by curriculum, which is sort of what's happening with our math.

[Entropymama]

That is what I thought you meant.  My kids are taking them now.  My daughter (12yo 7th grade) took written portion on Tuesday.  She says that it just stated to write a "multiple paragraph essay."   She had to write an argumentative essay on solar panels and she wrote 4 paragraphs.   My son (10yo 5th grade ) will have his essay portion next week.

 

She also says that while she could have written a 7 paragraph essay in one sitting if necessary, they did not give you enough information to fill 7 paragraphs, and she would have been just be repeating herself. 

 

I don't know if my 11 yo could do it, because I've never asked him to try. He will write 2 paragraph narrations on a SOTW chapter. 

 

I think my 13 year old could, but in that amount of time, on the spot? It would be terrible writing filled with fluff. An argumentative essay on solar panels.. have they studied this in school? Or are they supposed to read something and write a reaction? My kids wouldn't know enough about solar panels to argue about them. 

[abacus2]

I believe my 11 year old could probably produce that much content. I doubt she could do it well without direction.

[mamakelly]

Not just 11-year-olds.....this was part of my 9-year-old, 4th grade Dd's Smarter Balanced test yesterday. She came home completely stressed, with a headache and feeling very defeated. And she's an excellent student and writer. Just yet another reason we're coming home next year.

 

 

We use a homeschool charter program, so my dd had to take the Smarter Balance test too. She was so upset about the essay portion. She cried all afternoon. I told her I didn't care if she wrote her name over and over in the answer blanks. It really doesn't matter to me. That made her feel better. 

[purplejackmama]

No, my child could not.

[kiwik]

my hand would hurt too much.

[Mabelen]

I definitely do not like timed writing tests. Both my daughters are actually very good writers. They both produce excellent work and write for fun on their own. My older dd hated the SAT essay because it always brought her overall writing score down, even though she still scored in the 98-99 percentile.

[MarkT]

Did the testing agency state how the essay was going to be scored?  Are they looking for grammatically correct sentences?  Spelling? Significant vocabulary?  Original thought??

IMHO At this age, short written answers (a sentence or two) based off a reading prompt (paragraphs) is more appropriate and would be much easier to score.

 

My DS learned how to write multiple paragraph essays in middle school which I believe is the correct age for most.

[The Girls' Mom]

I don't think any of my kids would have churned out anything worth reading given those parameters.  One of them would have just frozen up and cried.  

[Caclcoca]

My 11 or 13 year old could not do this with this kind of time limit.

[idnib]

Did the testing agency state how the essay was going to be scored?  Are they looking for grammatically correct sentences?  Spelling? Significant vocabulary?  Original thought??

 

 

I've seen some rubrics but I cannot find them right now. They were based on grammar, sentence flow, language mechanics, organization of topics, topic sentences, etc and were quite comprehensive. I did feel that they were idealized, though, and would not be applied that carefully by pressured readers with thousands of essays.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Did the testing agency state how the essay was going to be scored?  Are they looking for grammatically correct sentences?  Spelling? Significant vocabulary?  Original thought??

IMHO At this age, short written answers (a sentence or two) based off a reading prompt (paragraphs) is more appropriate and would be much easier to score.

 

My DS learned how to write multiple paragraph essays in middle school which I believe is the correct age for most.

 

Either way, can you imagine having to read all those "essays"?  Ugh...

[Joker]

Both of my dds could, and did, but they started ps in middle school (which is 6th grade here so they were 11). The prompts have always been something they learned that year or something that they knew about already (last year was about the state we live in/tourism), and it usually just states multiple paragraphs but doesn't say how many. This year they had to be typed and my dds were not happy with that. They can type okay but they definitely do better in timed situations with pen/pencil and paper.

 

 

ETA: Dd, 13, said this year the topic for her grade was the Revolutionary War but they were given documents to read along with the prompt. So, they didn't have to remember all the information they had learned.

[mom2bee]

I could and did do those type of assignments when I was 10-13 years old. I think I started out doing 4 and 5 paragraph essays and the length grew as I did.

[Renai]

I've seen some rubrics but I cannot find them right now. They were based on grammar, sentence flow, language mechanics, organization of topics, topic sentences, etc and were quite comprehensive. I did feel that they were idealized, though, and would not be applied that carefully by pressured readers with thousands of essays.

 

Readers aren't given a certain number of essays to read in a particular time. They are given a shift, and score on a score-the-next-thing basis, so there isn't that type of pressure. Most scores are at least spot-checked, questionable essays can be queued to discuss with a leader, and each essay is scored holistically (look at it as a whole, as well as each component).

 

Scoring is taken very seriously, and the comprehensiveness of the guidelines are applied carefully. There is a lot of training which must be passed before getting permission to score a particular subject. A certification process must be completed prior to each scoring session/shift. If I'm having an off-day and don't pass certification, I don't score that shift. This is the way it works with the company I've worked with for years. I'm not sure how other companies do it (although I'm in the pipeline now to work with another company, so may get some first-hand knowledge soon), but I assume they have similar guidelines.

[idnib]

Readers aren't given a certain number of essays to read in a particular time. They are given a shift, and score on a score-the-next-thing basis, so there isn't that type of pressure. Most scores are at least spot-checked, questionable essays can be queued to discuss with a leader, and each essay is scored holistically (look at it as a whole, as well as each component).

 

Scoring is taken very seriously, and the comprehensiveness of the guidelines are applied carefully. There is a lot of training which must be passed before getting permission to score a particular subject. A certification process must be completed prior to each scoring session/shift. If I'm having an off-day and don't pass certification, I don't score that shift. This is the way it works with the company I've worked with for years. I'm not sure how other companies do it (although I'm in the pipeline now to work with another company, so may get some first-hand knowledge soon), but I assume they have similar guidelines.

 

That's good to hear. I was probably thinking of something else I read.

[8filltheheart]

Readers aren't given a certain number of essays to read in a particular time. They are given a shift, and score on a score-the-next-thing basis, so there isn't that type of pressure. Most scores are at least spot-checked, questionable essays can be queued to discuss with a leader, and each essay is scored holistically (look at it as a whole, as well as each component).

 

Scoring is taken very seriously, and the comprehensiveness of the guidelines are applied carefully. There is a lot of training which must be passed before getting permission to score a particular subject. A certification process must be completed prior to each scoring session/shift. If I'm having an off-day and don't pass certification, I don't score that shift. This is the way it works with the company I've worked with for years. I'm not sure how other companies do it (although I'm in the pipeline now to work with another company, so may get some first-hand knowledge soon), but I assume they have similar guidelines.

 

From what I have read about the ACT/SAT writing sections, the avg essay is given approx. 90 seconds.  I have no idea how that compares to state level standardized testing.

[Seasider]

Mine could. She wouldn't be happy about it, but she could do it.

 

I agree that quantity does not equal quality.

 

I'm curious about the source material. While it takes the gift of gab to expound a short passage into a greater length, the real skill lies in artfully condensing the material into concise, well communicated key points. Any idea which the test measured?

 

I shudder to think about who's responsible for evaluating and scoring all these essays.

[Cottonwood]

When my df was 11, she could have, though naybe late in her 11th year. But writing is absolutely her gift.

 

My ds12..not only NO at 11, but quite possibly not until his late high school years. Overall I think its a very unreasonable task for an 11 yr old.

 

However. Dh is, among other things, an adult educator and says that in most cases, there is an art to test taking and with some specific pointers, you don't have to be good at the subjects of most tests to score well. He says that often, what you presume you are being graded on is not where the grade comes from. Its very interesting to hear him talk about test taking for adults. He says some of it translates the same for kids but he's not sure to what degree. It always makes contemplating testing with suspicion, like..."what are they REALLY looking for here...". Lol

[Cottonwood]

*dd

[Renai]

From what I have read about the ACT/SAT writing sections, the avg essay is given approx. 90 seconds.  I have no idea how that compares to state level standardized testing.

 

I wouldn't doubt it. I haven't scored that particular essay, but an experienced rater that knows what to look for doesn't take long to score an essay. I always take longer in the beginning when "finding my feet," but after scoring many of these in a row following the same guidelines (look for points a, b, c, does it contain x, etc.), it gets easier to determine a score.

 

However, like I said, we are not pressured to score within a particular amount of time. When I was scoring math, I took forever figuring stuff out sometimes. I was still invited over and again to continue scoring because it wasn't about the time it took to score, but the accuracy.

[Renai]

For the record, I think it is an unreasonable task to ask most 11 year olds. But, I don't think it will be scored as harshly as some might think. It  is known it is a rough draft, and although I've never scored this particular test I imagine that like most essays it will be looked at holistically. Was the student able to take salient points from the reading and make a point about - whatever they're making a point about? In general, how was spelling, grammar, vocabulary? etc.

 

There are specific rubrics for each point, but in all it is scored holistically. But, it's been a while since I scored essays. I don't know how it has changed.

 

I do know that around here in public schools, the 5 paragraph essay is taught in the 3rd grade: intro, 3 paragraphs with the main points (one point per paragraph), and a conclusion. I did not teach that in 3rd, and I don't think she would have been able to do that particular test item at age 11 either.

[Farrar]

Haven't read the rest of the thread.

 

When is the research about this expected to happen?

 

Because my DS can and does write at length. Not 7 paragraphs (It seems like an arbitrary number. Why not 5? Or 11? Or Pick your favorite prime and write an essay in as many number of paragraphs;)) But he frequently summarizes, pretty well with very few mistakes, what he has just read,  in 4-5 paragraphs. If i said use seven, he would use seven. Now, this is mostly regurgitation of what he has read recently. He is not much used to doing research, etc. For example I will ask him an essay question that combines issues/persons covered in the last two chapters of his history book.

 

ETA: He just turned 11 last week. We do very little writing instruction, as a matter of fact our Language Arts curriculum is Galore Park which would be considered "light" by most what I see here. I guess he leans that way, wants to be a writer and all that. I;ve decided not to kill it by curriculum, which is sort of what's happening with our math.

 

I can really only estimate from my experience teaching middle school. I would guess that for a few 11 yos, this would be a task they could do without too much trouble. For many, it would be something they could do with more time and preparation. For many others, it would just be an inappropriate task without some help, such as a tutor or teacher to help check or jointly create their outline. For a few kids, nothing is really going to get them there at this age.

 

However, my experience with kids who can do this either in a time limit or without one, is that the papers they write are pretty bad. Often these are kids who have been getting lots of praise for their writing for a long time - they usually write decent sentences and have good vocabularies (it's shocking how far using big words gets kids in terms of standardized test scores on poorly constructed papers - I've seen studies about how just saying "however" instead of "but" gets you a point boost), but they tend to write in circles, or draw different conclusions at the end than at the beginning or have whole sections that go nowhere. They just have no sense of what makes a really good paper yet. For all but the most gifted writers, they really need to be focusing mostly on the same things that the other kids need to focus on - organization and building better sentences and paragraphs.

 

I feel like with training, more kids can be trained to do this sort of assignment (not all, but certainly more than what's reflected in the homeschool population), but with what point? It doesn't really address the foundations of good writing. And, as 8 pointed out, it doesn't reflect any real world skill. What's the point? Is this a good use of kids' time?

 

But for people who have been through this (or managed to get their kids through it whole and undamaged) they often act like everyone should have to do it. It reminds me of doctors and residents. More and more studies have shown that the schedule requirements and structure of medical residencies are bad for new doctors and patients, but old doctors have gone through the wringer so they feel everyone should have to. Why reform the system once you've made it through?

[FairProspects]

I can really only estimate from my experience teaching middle school. I would guess that for a few 11 yos, this would be a task they could do without too much trouble. For many, it would be something they could do with more time and preparation. For many others, it would just be an inappropriate task with help, such as a tutor or teacher to help check or jointly create their outline. For a few kids, nothing is really going to get them there at this age.

 

However, my experience with kids who can do this either in a time limit or without one, is that the papers they write are pretty bad. Often these are kids who have been getting lots of praise for their writing for a long time - they usually write decent sentences and have good vocabularies (it's shocking how far using big words gets kids in terms of standardized test scores on poorly constructed papers - I've seen studies about how just saying "however" instead of "but" gets you a point boost), but they tend to write in circles, or draw different conclusions at the end than at the beginning or have whole sections that go nowhere. They just have no sense of what makes a really good paper yet. For all but the most gifted writers, they really need to be focusing mostly on the same things that the other kids need to focus on - organization and building better sentences and paragraphs.

 

I feel like with training, more kids can be trained to do this sort of assignment (not all, but certainly more than what's reflected in the homeschool population), but with what point? It doesn't really address the foundations of good writing. And, as 8 pointed out, it doesn't reflect any real world skill. What's the point? Is this a good use of kids' time?

 

But for people who have been through this (or managed to get their kids through it whole and undamaged) they often act like everyone should have to do it. It reminds me of doctors and residents. More and more studies have shown that the schedule requirements and structure of medical residencies are bad for new doctors and patients, but old doctors have gone through the wringer so they feel everyone should have to. Why reform the system once you've made it through?

 

This. Exactly this. I also used to teach junior high and high school and there is *so* much brain development between 11 and 16/17. Even if we justify this exercise as teaching test taking skills, you do not need to start test prepping 11 y.o.s to have stellar test takers at by 16 or 17. There are so many better ways to spend that time with an 11 y.o. that will result in more quality output long term as well as better critical analysis and thinking skills overall.

 

 

[HSmomof2]

This. Exactly this. I also used to teach junior high and high school and there is *so* much brain development between 11 and 16/17. Even if we justify this exercise as teaching test taking skills, you do not need to start test prepping 11 y.o.s to have stellar test takers at by 16 or 17. There are so many better ways to spend that time with an 11 y.o. that will result in more quality output long term as well as better critical analysis and thinking skills overall.

 

 

ITA^^

 

And this 'Smarter' Balance test is not rigorous, it's ridiculous.

 

I mentioned my dd(9) took it last week. She is a good student and a very organized, logical writer for her age.

 

As an example of specifically what this test is asking, it's not just a reading followed by a writing prompt. In her class, the day before the test they read a few nonfiction articles about heat waves, weather, and how animals cool off during a heat wave. Next day they take the writing test, and the question they are given is to 'write a story about their class visiting an animal shelter on a very hot day'. Instructions say to cite evidence from the articles they read the day before incorporating that information into their fictional story. Length should be 7-8 paragraphs.

I'm not sure how that's appropriate for 4th (or 5th, 6th) graders. Really anyone. I'm all for rigor and teaching writing well. I'm not even opposed to standardized testing. I am, however, against this specific test and feel bad for the students that have to take it.

[JoJosMom]

No. But he can type 10 chapter Doctor Who fanfics :)

 

The girls couldn't have either. But they also could write plays, newpapers, letters, stories at that age.

 

It seems a dubious achievement to me. Writing is, first and foremost, about voice - and kids need time to develop that voice, imo.

 

:iagree:

 

(It's Pirate 101 fanfics, here.  And they've even been "published" on the website, woo-hoo! :) )

[shinyhappypeople]

ITA^^

 

And this 'Smarter' Balance test is not rigorous, it's ridiculous.

 

I mentioned my dd(9) took it last week. She is a good student and a very organized, logical writer for her age.

 

As an example of specifically what this test is asking, it's not just a reading followed by a writing prompt. In her class, the day before the test they read a few nonfiction articles about heat waves, weather, and how animals cool off during a heat wave. Next day they take the writing test, and the question they are given is to 'write a story about their class visiting an animal shelter on a very hot day'. Instructions say to cite evidence from the articles they read the day before incorporating that information into their fictional story. Length should be 7-8 paragraphs.

I'm not sure how that's appropriate for 4th (or 5th, 6th) graders. Really anyone. I'm all for rigor and teaching writing well. I'm not even opposed to standardized testing. I am, however, against this specific test and feel bad for the students that have to take it.

 

 

Oh, good grief. That's just setting kids up to fail.

 

So kids are asked to read something in a pressured situation on one day and then, the next day, recall what they read in enough detail to cite it in an essay?

 

No.  

 

Even my 10 yo DD (high IQ,  natural writer) could not do that.  

 

This isn't about making sure kids meet a basic minimum standard of writing, this is.....

 

I don't know what this is.

 

Why are they setting kids up to fail?  Normal 10/11 yo kids can't accomplish what the test is asking of them.

[idnib]

Here are some Smarter Balanced rubrics for writing. Not the official ones, but someone put them in an easier to use grid.

[Farrar]

I think they probably grade these things relatively generously. The problem to me is not so much that it's "too hard" but that's it's a waste of time. It's the wrong place to put writing resources and time. It's just wrong.

[Shellydon]

No, but I have not taught her to do this yet.  I believe slow and steady for writing, I do not start teaching how to write essays until 6th grade or so.

[Tsuga]

Could your 11 yo sit down and a write a 7 paragraph essay in one sitting?  Assume the topic is assigned (something like "write about the effects of water erosion on the natural landscape")  Start to finish.  Brainstorming.  Planning. Rough draft.  Editing.  Final draft.  

 

A friends daughter just did it for the CCSS test and I'm dumbfounded. Seven paragraphs, one sitting, start to finish. 11 years old.  

 

Yes, but it wouldn't be a great essay. But then... He's not a great essayist. He would probably finish and get a solid C+. That's my guess.

[HSmomof2]

I think they probably grade these things relatively generously. The problem to me is not so much that it's "too hard" but that's it's a waste of time. It's the wrong place to put writing resources and time. It's just wrong.

I couldn't agree more.....

[IsabelC]

My 11yo couldn't do that. He couldn't write ONE paragraph correctly. But he has learning difficulties and writing is his 'worst' subject. I don't think that expectation is unreasonable for an average to bright child who has been taught the necessary skills and had a reasonable amount of practice. When I was 11 years old, I was in grade 7 and successfully did that sort of thing in school exams.

[TKDmom]

NO.

 

I think I learned to do that in 11th grade...

[FO4UR]

Nope.

 

My 12yo would just cross his arms, roll his eyes, and accept defeat.

 

My 10yo would write 7 paragraphs of pure snark or silliness. (The water cycle deserves to die a slow and painful death b/c it ruined my birthday party....and that's how she would roll.)

 

 

Neither would truly be able to produce something of real meaning under those guidelines.  At 11yo, I want to see a nice sentence, a crafted paragraph, purposeful language. That's it.  

[MarkT]

Here are some Smarter Balanced rubrics for writing. Not the official ones, but someone put them in an easier to use grid.

the 3-5th grade rubric seems to be the same as 6-12th

this whole thing will just turn most students off

 

great and more arbitrary scoring on how someone reads it -  that's why I prefer Math and Science 

[Renai]

the 3-5th grade rubric seems to be the same as 6-12th

this whole thing will just turn most students off

 

great and more arbitrary scoring on how someone reads it -  that's why I prefer Math and Science 

 

If you quote this, erase everything after math x3, since I may need to delete.

 

Math, math, math.

 

I did math, then backed out. I can't say much, but one issue had to do with the + and = being the same key. How the heck was I supposed to know the difference between a mistake and on purpose??? 

[Southern Ivy]

Could your 11 yo sit down and a write a 7 paragraph essay in one sitting?  Assume the topic is assigned (something like "write about the effects of water erosion on the natural landscape")  Start to finish.  Brainstorming.  Planning. Rough draft.  Editing.  Final draft.  

 

A friends daughter just did it for the CCSS test and I'm dumbfounded. Seven paragraphs, one sitting, start to finish. 11 years old.  

I'm glad my state dropped the CCSS. When we (the writing curriculum team at my school) gathered to discuss the upcoming standards and to look at "exemplary" examples, we were laughing at the expectations. There is no way my 4th graders could do the writing expected based on the examples. 

Even at my private school years ago, we would not have been capable of the performance expected in the new CCSS tests and my school always tested well above the public schools in the area. 

[Southern Ivy]

Nope.

 

My 12yo would just cross his arms, roll his eyes, and accept defeat.

 

My 10yo would write 7 paragraphs of pure snark or silliness. (The water cycle deserves to die a slow and painful death b/c it ruined my birthday party....and that's how she would roll.)

 

 

Neither would truly be able to produce something of real meaning under those guidelines.  At 11yo, I want to see a nice sentence, a crafted paragraph, purposeful language. That's it.  

I like your 10 year old! She sounds like she has great spunk. 

[Renai]

Nope.

 

My 12yo would just cross his arms, roll his eyes, and accept defeat.

 

My 10yo would write 7 paragraphs of pure snark or silliness. (The water cycle deserves to die a slow and painful death b/c it ruined my birthday party....and that's how she would roll.)

 

 

As long as she could back it up with evidence, it would probably pass.

[Peaceful Isle]

My just turned 11 year old dd could because she is a wonderful writer. That being said, my dd would be extremely stressed out afterwards,though. She would do a better job if she was given a few days to do it in, and allowed to brain storm, revise, etc..

[FO4UR]

As long as she could back it up with evidence, it would probably pass.

 

 

I don't know if that is funny or sad!  I'm certain that she would have plenty of evidence.

 

 

I'd rather her learn to write meaningful things with a good purpose.  I guess that's why I homeschool...

[Mabelen]

I will let you know next week when my dd takes it. She has already mentioned it is too much and that she is sure to run out of time.

So dd took it today and... She enjoyed it and had 5 minutes to spare! The first part had the sources to read and reading comprehension questions. Then the second part was the essay. She is saying she will try to re type it for me so I can read it. It was more of a fiction essay. She thinks she did a good job although the ending was a little abrupt. The instructions were to write "several" paragraphs, not necessarily seven. My daughter said she ended writing more like eight because she included dialogue.