JFSinIL Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The mind reels. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Because his mind wasn't working right. There's no logical reason as to why bc he wasn't using logic. :( 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spryte Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 :( There's no answer. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Or, to commit murder. It's awful. But it is not the first time by a longshot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I have to admit I've never been concerned about whether my pilots (or co-pilots) have had suicidal/murder thoughts before when any of us have flown. (sigh) I'm also recalling a brain show where they proved they could hypnotize a man into committing a murder and he never realized what he was doing and couldn't recall it afterward until filled in about it. This was a true study (not with a true murder, of course, but with actors pretending that part to see if he would go through with it). I have to wonder sometimes. The two might not be connected, but it's a scary thought nonetheless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Because there is sin in the world, and it overwhelms different people at different times in different ways. It is not logical. There is no explanation that makes it make sense. Somehow that is the worst of all. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Ivy Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 We had major storms so I haven't been paying attention to much else. What happened? Is this concerning the flight in France? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Here's an article describing the show we watched if anyone is curious: http://www.infowars.com/discovery-channel-documentary-proves-mind-control-assassin-conspiracy/ One study (even overseen by Harvard and Oxford scientists) doesn't make anything fact, of course, but the result was chilling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Because his mind wasn't working right. There's no logical reason as to why bc he wasn't using logic. :( This. Quite obviously there was some mental illness at play here. We've been hearing about it listening to CBC which has also pointed out a few other instances of a similar action occurring previously. It's tragic. And, I really wonder about the door locking system. It's solely meant to keep people out of the cockpit. I understand the need for that, but situations like this clearly demonstrate the need for some kind of over-ride system. It's all so terribly sad. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz007 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Terrorism committed by a terrorist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Terrorism committed by a terrorist. I don't think that has been confirmed? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJosMom Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Terrorism committed by a terrorist. I don't think that has been confirmed? Some reports are saying that terrorism has been ruled out. The White House spokesman said it is not likely, but still possible ("a window is still open.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz007 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't think that has been confirmed? Oh, I agree that this has not been confirmed, but had he been a Muslim the headlines would be totally different and the the "wait and see" would not have applied. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Just horrifying. Assuming terrorism stays ruled out, I can understand how a mind gets to a decision to commit suicide. I can't comprehend how it gets to a place where one murders massive numbers of others at the same time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I find it surprising that the French prosecutor has already determined that this is the cause, kwim? It seems, from photos & reports, that the plane was basically obliterated. The voice recording has been found (the basis of what the prosecutor announced), but the other black box (instrument readings, etc...) hasn't been found yet. How can he make such a firm statement so quickly? Perhaps they are correct, but I'm shocked at the speed with which they are announcing this as the cause. (Esp. because the prosecutor is not an aviation specialist.) The whole event is horrible, shocking, & sad. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 This. Quite obviously there was some mental illness at play here. We've been hearing about it listening to CBC which has also pointed out a few other instances of a similar action occurring previously. It's tragic. And, I really wonder about the door locking system. It's solely meant to keep people out of the cockpit. I understand the need for that, but situations like this clearly demonstrate the need for some kind of over-ride system. It's all so terribly sad. According to the "experts" on CNN, the protocol for U.S. airlines is that there is never only one person in the cockpit. If one of the pilots needs to step out, then a flight attendant goes in. Apparently that's not the case in Europe and Asia. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momacacia Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 According to the "experts" on CNN, the protocol for U.S. airlines is that there is never only one person in the cockpit. If one of the pilots needs to step out, then a flight attendant goes in. Apparently that's not the case in Europe and Asia.This. Exactly. Hopefully they change protocol. It's just too much responsibility to leave with one person. There should be at least 3 people who can fly that thing or temporarily autopilot so one can have a potty break and there's always another potentially sane person in the cockpit. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Because there is sin in the world, and it overwhelms different people at different times in different ways. It is not logical. There is no explanation that makes it make sense. Somehow that is the worst of all. I couldn't disagree more. Besides the fact there's no such animal we can identify as "sin," to trivialize human behavior to such an amorphous construct is to neglect to accurately understand human behavior, and dismiss in some measure the need to develop pertinent tactics for the future. For all we know, once upon a time this co-pilot felt vulnerable and alone and frightened, and found some irrational, illogical idea to be his only hope. Wouldn't it be something if we could identify people who feel like this, and the circumstances that lead them to feeling like this, and learn to help them and avoid tragedy rather than writing it off as some religious failing? 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 According to the "experts" on CNN, the protocol for U.S. airlines is that there is never only one person in the cockpit. If one of the pilots needs to step out, then a flight attendant goes in. Apparently that's not the case in Europe and Asia. It does seem that this incident is changing those protocols for various airlines. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The song "I don't like Mondays" keeps coming to my head. Senseless. My only thought is some kind of weird psychosis brought on by environmental causes... That's want happened to a Seattle parks and rec worker after her home was broken into and her dog shot. This formerly normal person just snapped. It was such a shock. Parks and rec are a huge part of the community here. You couldn't fathom this happening. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I was also surprised they declared the murder-suicide as "fact" so quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 According to the "experts" on CNN, the protocol for U.S. airlines is that there is never only one person in the cockpit. If one of the pilots needs to step out, then a flight attendant goes in. Apparently that's not the case in Europe and Asia. My husband asked a good question as to whether this could even be a medical event. We will never know, but having something like a keycode for the doors from the outside seems like a sensible precaution - whether it be terrorism, suicide, or cardiac arrest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I think it is because he'd have had to descend and lock the doors intentionally--extremely unlikely to happen by accident. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I find it surprising that the French prosecutor has already determined that this is the cause, kwim? It seems, from photos & reports, that the plane was basically obliterated. The voice recording has been found (the basis of what the prosecutor announced), but the other black box (instrument readings, etc...) hasn't been found yet. How can he make such a firm statement so quickly? Perhaps they are correct, but I'm shocked at the speed with which they are announcing this as the cause. (Esp. because the prosecutor is not an aviation specialist.) The whole event is horrible, shocking, & sad. I do wonder if there is other evidence that has not yet been made public. Such a tragedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 This. Quite obviously there was some mental illness at play here. We've been hearing about it listening to CBC which has also pointed out a few other instances of a similar action occurring previously. It's tragic. And, I really wonder about the door locking system. It's solely meant to keep people out of the cockpit. I understand the need for that, but situations like this clearly demonstrate the need for some kind of over-ride system. It's all so terribly sad. They apparently had a keycode system for overriding the locked door, but it wasn't working properly. From another source I read, apparently this override system is designed for allowing someone in should the pilot/co-pilot become unconscious, but the person inside can prevent it from working. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 They apparently had a keycode system for overriding the locked door, but it wasn't working properly. From another source I read, apparently this override system is designed for allowing someone in should the pilot/co-pilot become unconscious, but the person inside can prevent it from working. This is the part I do not understand - apparently, the head air steward or some such person always has a key-code to open the cockpit in case of emergency and I would have thought that the main pilot caught outside would have the key code to get in (apparently, I am wrong). So tragic. I believe that it is severe mental illness or terrorism - because a suicidal person would not want to take down so many innocent lives with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 This is the part I do not understand - apparently, the head air steward or some such person always has a key-code to open the cockpit in case of emergency and I would have thought that the main pilot caught outside would have the key code to get in (apparently, I am wrong). So tragic. I believe that it is severe mental illness or terrorism - because a suicidal person would not want to take down so many innocent lives with him. I heard one of the "experts" say that if the door is manually locked from inside the cockpit, then there's a five minute time period in which the key code won't work. What I haven't heard and am wondering about is even if the key pad wouldn't work for five minutes, why couldn't the pilot get in after that? Given that they're saying it was a steady, controlled descent all the way to impact, it doesn't sound as if he ever managed to get back in the cockpit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I heard one of the "experts" say that if the door is manually locked from inside the cockpit, then there's a five minute time period in which the key code won't work. What I haven't heard and am wondering about is even if the key pad wouldn't work for five minutes, why couldn't the pilot get in after that? Given that they're saying it was a steady, controlled descent all the way to impact, it doesn't sound as if he ever managed to get back in the cockpit. Because the person inside hit the lock button again, resetting the 5min time limit is what I have heard theorized 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What I heard an official say this morning on NPR is that there are three settings on cockpit doors. This door was set not to open even with a code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 It is honestly easier for me to believe that the co-pilot had some sort of medical calamity while the pilot was outside the cockpit, preventing him from responding to the door. Do we know for sure that the co-pilot HAD to reset the lock somehow to keep the pilot out? Everything I have seen, which admittedly is very limited, seems to suggest that the co-pilot was an ordinary guy without any prior suggestion of mental illness, depression or other concerning sign that he might be suicidal. Given that, it's not impossible that he took the plane down on purpose, but it seems rather unlikely. Has anyone verified that the cockpit door lock functioned normally? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The other things the official reported this morning were that the autopilot switch was manually turned off after the pilot left for the restroom, and the mechanism for starting descent was initiated - it is not something that can be easily bumped, but more like a knob that must be turned multiple times. The co-pilot did this willfully, and his normal breathing was picked up by the recorder until the time of the crash. The recorder also picked up the altitude alarms, and the pilot outside the door could be heard pounding on it and yelling. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clementine Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 My heart has been heavy for all families involved. It's bad enough to lose loved ones in an accidental plane crash, but to be told it was intentional just adds so much more grief to it. I can't imagine. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I wonder if he thought it would spare his parents the thought he'd killed himself by thinking it was an accident. (investigators can tell when the autopilot was switched off to initiate descent. a willful and deliberate procedure.) but that he would take that many people with him . . . . virgin has announced an immediately effective policy of two crewmembers in the cockpit at all times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 The co-pilot did this willfully There are now reports saying that the pilot outside used a video conferencing system to contact the copilot and asked him to open the doors. T http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europe/germanwings-plane-crash-pilots/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 a suicidal person would not want to take down so many innocent lives with him. I don't know about this guy, but . . . we had a case here where a man drove his Porsche across the center lane into an oncoming RV. his intent was suicide. he survived. the RV driver and passengers DIED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 My husband asked a good question as to whether this could even be a medical event. We will never know, but having something like a keycode for the doors from the outside seems like a sensible precaution - whether it be terrorism, suicide, or cardiac arrest. he deliberately shut down the autopilot and started descent. he couldn't have done that if he'd had a medical event. as someone upthread mentioned, he couldn't lock the cabin door from the inside - at least twice, if he was incapacitated. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 ... a suicidal person would not want to take down so many innocent lives with him. There is no reason to believe this. Suicidal people are just people. They come in all kinds. It is not unusual for suicidal people to take other's lives with their own. It's rare in such a large scale, but it happens. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJosMom Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 My husband asked a good question as to whether this could even be a medical event. We will never know, but having something like a keycode for the doors from the outside seems like a sensible precaution - whether it be terrorism, suicide, or cardiac arrest. he deliberately shut down the autopilot and started descent. he couldn't have done that if he'd had a medical event. as someone upthread mentioned, he couldn't lock the cabin door from the inside - at least twice, if he was incapacitated. In addition to what gardenmom5 said, the voice recorder was apparently sensitive enough to record the co-pilot's breathing pattern. The breathing pattern was apparently inconsistent with an individual having a medical crisis. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathnerd Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 There is no reason to believe this. Suicidal people are just people. They come in all kinds. It is not unusual for suicidal people to take other's lives with their own. It's rare in such a large scale, but it happens. I am no expert on mental health, but it is hard for me to imagine a person thinking that they should take down 150 people with them as well as an expensive airplane just because they were depressed and suicidal. FYI, this is what the CEO of Lufthansa also said: When asked if Lufthansa and Germanwings would describe the crash as a suicide, Spohr replied: "I'm not a lawyer, but I would say if that a person takes 149 other people with him to their deaths, then we need a word other than suicide." So, he is trying not to use the word "murder". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 In addition to what gardenmom5 said, the voice recorder was apparently sensitive enough to record the co-pilot's breathing pattern. The breathing pattern was apparently inconsistent with an individual having a medical crisis.Oh, I'm just about positive this guy was a suicidal murderer and my husband believes the same, but he had a great point about access needing to be allowable from the cabins of only by certain keyed in personnel, just in case. The whole locked-cockpits-no-matter-what can and does backfire, even in innocent situations like a health emergency. But yeah, I'm good with saying this looks like a mass murder suicide. So darn sad :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Probably this was a SUICIDE, which also resulted in the MURDER of 149 innocent men, women and children. Murdering innocent people is what Terrorists do. Whether it eventually turns out that he was a Muslim is irrelevant. Probably he wasn't a Muslim. The majority of the victims were from Spain and Germany, but there were also passengers from the USA, Colombia, Israel and other countries aboard the aircraft. The co pilot programmed the auto pilot to begin an immediate descent to 100 feet and that's what the aircraft did. The co pilot apparently had depression during his flight training, because of poor performance. This is not the first airline accident caused by a pilot suicide and it is a severe Black mark for Lufthansa and their pilot screenings for employment and their flight physical exams. A horrible tragedy for the innocent victims and their families and their friends and for the people working on the accident investigation. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermama Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Oh, I'm just about positive this guy was a suicidal murderer and so is my husband, but he had a great point about access needing to be allowable from the cabins of only by certain keyed in personnel, just in case. The whole locked-cockpits-no-matter-what can and does backfire, even in innocent situations like a health emergency. But yeah, I'm good with saying this looks like a mass murder suicide. So darn sad :( There are three settings for the cockpit door lock - unlock (to allow someone to enter the cockpit), normal (locked with the option to override via the keypad), and lock (ignores the keypad). The lock function is specifically to prevent anyone - even someone with a code - from entering the cockpit. This prevents someone from forcing the code out of a member of the cabin crew and then gaining access to the cockpit. The lock override only lasts for a certain period of time (typically 5 minutes). Since the records show approximately an 8 minute descent, it would have to have been reset knowingly by someone in the cockpit. At this point, there's no evidence to suggest there was anyone other than the copilot in the cabin. Here's some more information from an Airbus video: link. American airlines get around this by requiring two people at all times, so if a pilot or copilot needs to leave, a cabin crew member sits with them. El Al has a double cockpit door system. There's a serious stigma to reporting any sort of mental health issues as a pilot (much like the military, from my understanding). Any hint of certain issues will get a pilot grounded. It's a absolutely horrible situation all around, and I cannot even imagine what the families are going through right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What I heard late this afternoon on NPR was that the person in the cockpit can override the emergency code, denying access. If the person flying the plane is incapacitated (ie by a medical event) then he presumably would either not want to manually override it or would not be able to. This just makes me so sad for all the people on the plane and their families. How awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Oh, I agree that this has not been confirmed, but had he been a Muslim the headlines would be totally different and the the "wait and see" would not have applied. Has religions, actually, hasn't been disclosed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Mental illness is my thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Terrorism is violence to achieve political goals. Not all violence is terrorism. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I am no expert on mental health, but it is hard for me to imagine a person thinking that they should take down 150 people with them as well as an expensive airplane just because they were depressed and suicidal. List of aircraft accidents caused by pilot suicide It happens. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I am no expert on mental health, but it is hard for me to imagine a person thinking that they should take down 150 people with them as well as an expensive airplane just because they were depressed and suicidal. List of aircraft accidents caused by pilot suicide It happens. And don't forget the mysterious disappearance of Malaysia Airlines MH370. It's possible that was a pilot suicide. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Oh, I'm just about positive this guy was a suicidal murderer and so is my husband, but he had a great point about access needing to be allowable from the cabins of only by certain keyed in personnel, just in case. The whole locked-cockpits-no-matter-what can and does backfire, even in innocent situations like a health emergency. But yeah, I'm good with saying this looks like a mass murder suicide. So darn sad :( there were changes to the locking system post 9/11. the door has a key code. the pilots can have it set to allow the key code (which is "normal" when they are in the air), or to block the key code for between 5 - 20 minutes (may depend upon airline) and then it has to be reset to continue the block. they can see who is at the door trying to get in. (they can also have it completely unlocked when on the ground). that must be engaged from inside the cockpit on a control panel between the pilots seats. the copilot engaged the lock to block entry with the key code. from other reading, supposedly US flight regulations requires two personnel in the cockpit at all times. if a pilot wants to go to the toilet - a flight attendant must enter the cockpit. (I was on a flight in the very front row, and when the pilot went to the toilet - the beverage cart was swung around to completely block the aisle. the attendant was on the other side of the cart.) that was not formerly a requirement by European or Asian airlines. they're jumping on the bandwagon to implement the policy immediately. several airlines have already announced they are changing their policy. I did read the german police found something "significant" at his apartment. (he has an apartment as well as with his parents and split his time.) the CEO of Lufthansa seemed rather disturbed this guy passed all of his psych tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I did read the german police found something "significant" at his apartment. (he has an apartment as well as with his parents and split his time.) . This is what I was wondering - if there was something else that gave officials a high degree of confidence in the intentionality of his actions. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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