Banned books

[Ohdanigirl]

I am curious where the hive stands on this topic. Is it ever ok to ban books in high school? Is it reasonable to expect ninth graders to be able to read about and maturely discuss sensitive topics such as r@pe, inc3$t, and p3dophili@? (Sorry, trying to avoid random google trolls)

 

I just finished reading "The Glass Castle" and found the story tragic yet fascinating. I also found out that parents had demanded the book be removed from required reading lists for ninth and tenth grade classes. I have a tenth grader whom I feel could handle the content.

 

While we are on the subject, I need sone book suggestions for my own reading. Maybe I'll focus on banned books for a month or two. So pkease offer you suggestions.

 

Thanks

[Reflections]

I am curious where the hive stands on this topic. Is it ever ok to ban books in high school? Is it reasonable to expect ninth graders to be able to read about and maturely discuss sensitive topics such as r@pe, inc3$t, and p3dophili@? (Sorry, trying to avoid random google trolls)

 

I just finished reading "The Glass Castle" and found the story tragic yet fascinating. I also found out that parents had demanded the book be removed from required reading lists for ninth and tenth grade classes. I have a tenth grader whom I feel could handle the content.

 

While we are on the subject, I need sone book suggestions for my own reading. Maybe I'll focus on banned books for a month or two. So pkease offer you suggestions.

 

Thanks

 

Nope.  Everything should be available to be read. Slippery slope imo, about what to ban, even for high schoolers.

 

And what Sadie said.

[SKL]

In high school, no, I don't think anything other than "adult" (X rated) literature should be banned from kids' personal reading lists, but I don't think kids should be required to read some topics either.

 

I remember squirming in a college English class when the topic of sex came up.  I was 17 and really didn't want to go there.  Of course in college I expected to be treated as an adult so I dealt with it.  I don't expect high schoolers to all be ready for that.

 

Interesting, just this week my kids' 3rd grade teacher sent home a note saying that parents should be careful of the books their kids are choosing for independent reading.  "There are some mature books that are written at the 5th grade level."  Makes me wonder what triggered that comment.
 

[Reflections]

In high school, no, I don't think anything other than "adult" (X rated) literature should be banned from kids' personal reading lists, but I don't think kids should be required to read some topics either.

 

I remember squirming in a college English class when the topic of sex came up.  I was 17 and really didn't want to go there.  Of course in college I expected to be treated as an adult so I dealt with it.  I don't expect high schoolers to all be ready for that.

 

Interesting, just this week my kids' 3rd grade teacher sent home a note saying that parents should be careful of the books their kids are choosing for independent reading.  "There are some mature books that are written at the 5th grade level."  Makes me wonder what triggered that comment.

 

 

Judy Blume is a popular children's author who wrote Forever whose lexile is at 590; which is very close to 5th grade.  There are a few others like that. So, you know, maybe that's it...

 

Oh, and all the summer, high school age lifeguards at our pool were reading Shades of Grey when on their break....

[kiwik]

There is a big difference between removing a book from the library and removing it from required reading lists. Kids who have exoerienced such things should not be required to come face to face with them in English class and to be honest no-one else should have to either if they don't want to.

[Mom-ninja.]

Banning books? No.

 

Requiring/forcing books? No.  

[Chris in VA]

I don't think banning really works.

 

I do think, if you are going to read about the things you listed, it better be in the context of GREAT literature, not sensationalized, popular crap.

[Word Nerd]

There is a big difference between removing a book from the library and removing it from required reading lists.

Not when the ALA compiles its list of banned and challenged books.

[luuknam]

In high school, no, I don't think anything other than "adult" (X rated) literature should be banned from kids' personal reading lists, 

 

"There are some mature books that are written at the 5th grade level."  Makes me wonder what triggered that comment.

 

 

If you ask your kid's teacher she'd probably tell you what triggered that.

 

I agree that porn does not belong in a high school library (never mind reading list). That said, it does open up the slippery slope. I don't even necessarily object to teenagers reading porn, but I don't want my taxes to fund those in a school library when they could be spending them on more appropriate books (besides, can you imagine how gross those books would be when they're returned to the library?).

 

I read the Clan of the Cave Bear series by Jean M. Auel when I was 11 I think? When I was in 5th grade the elementary school principal started reading the first book out loud to the 5th and 6th graders. Some parents objected. He said that if he got to the objectionable parts of the book he'd skip them (there is sex incl. rape in them). We never got that far. However, it did make me check them out of the library a year later or so (not sure why there was a delay).

 

I read Glamorama and at least one other Brett Easton Ellis book (American Psycho) when I was in 11th grade (15yo). Glamorama features graphic descriptions of threesomes etc. It's not just porn though - the sex is just in a few scenes, not the entire book. I wouldn't object to a school having a book like Glamorama. I do object to badly written porn that is solely about the sex and nothing else. Glamorama has a lot of material in it that would be worth discussing (lifestyle choices, etc). Badly written porn probably doesn't provide much material for conversation.

[shawthorne44]

Not when the ALA compiles its list of banned and challenged books.

 

Could you explain?   (Said in a curious and not a challenging tone)

[EKS]

Choosing not to assign a book to high school students is NOT the same as banning the book.  I have no problem with high schools deciding which books they want to assign (and obviously they do this all the time since they only assign a handful of books each year).  In fact, I think it is *respectful* of families if they choose not to assign books with an edge to them that conservative students (and their families) may be uncomfortable with.  

 

To actually ban a book, it needs to be removed from the libraries (public and school) in a community.

[vonfirmath]

I am curious where the hive stands on this topic. Is it ever ok to ban books in high school? Is it reasonable to expect ninth graders to be able to read about and maturely discuss sensitive topics such as r@pe, inc3$t, and p3dophili@? (Sorry, trying to avoid random google trolls)

 

 

I don't think the government should ban a book anywhere. I think it is reasonable and appropriate for librarians, yes even at the high school level, to decide what books to stock on their shelves based on their customers. I am perfectly okay with our primary library (K-2) deciding not to purchase certain books because they are too mature for the students. And I'd be just as okay for a high school to decide not to stock certain books that did not fit the people who would be using the library.  But I do not consider that banning.

 

To me, banning is the government stepping in and not allowing a book to be published. Not people making the reasonable choices as to what to purchase and not purchase.  (or even disagreeing where that reasonable line is, in the case of a parent challenging a reading book they feel not appropriate for the age.)

 

Given recent conversations on this board, I'm sure many here would think it would be totally appropriate for a school library to NOT buy YEC books for the library. Are they in favor of banning books by feeling that way? NO. They are making choices of appropriate uses of funds.

 

[shawthorne44]

It seems to me that a little common sense should be involved in the school reading lists.  I have no problem with the Glass Castle on a high school reading list.  But, I do have a serious problem with that book by the urban author that describes in detail and glorifies child molest------- being on the Common Core list of books for teachers to choose from.  

[TammyS]

I read The Glass Castle.  I wouldn't want my teen to read it, nor do I think he would want to.

 

The word "ban" tends to get people worked up, but I really don't have a problem with banning books in school libraries.  They aren't the only place the book is available and it isn't the job of the school library to make all controversial things, or all things, available to students.  Frankly, I think the standard is backward.  It shouldn't be, "is this book too bad in some way to be here?" it should be, "We have limited space and resources and our students have limited time to read.....is this book good enough, edifying enough, to be here? Is it worthy of a place on our shelves?"  Lots of ok books aren't going to make a standard like that. That's fine.  There is still Amazon, Project Gutenberg, book stores, thrift stores (where I recently saw 50 Shades for $.50), and the public library.

[Spy Car]

I like the policy used by the Honors English teacher my son will have next year in Middle School. She has a wide reading list of serious literature. Among the list there is a subset of books that (due to theme, content or language) require parent permission slips. This keeps the reading list wide ( inclusive of what might be called "banned books", while respecting parental decisions.

 

Bill

[MomtoCandJ]

Hmmm books like "The Jungle" by Sinclair? I remember reading that in 9th or 10th grade. Where the Red Fern Grows was in 5th or 6th grade, Johnny Trumain (sp?) in 8th grade history. I'm sure there are more but the titles escape me at the moment (I graduated high school 13 years ago).

[Word Nerd]

Could you explain?   (Said in a curious and not a challenging tone)

 

The ALA's challenged or banned books list does not only include books that have been banned or been the target of banning attempts. If you look at the list for 2013-2014, for example, you will see several titles that were removed from required or suggested reading lists or curriculum—not banned or removed from shelves. For the purposes of Banned Books Week, challenging a book's inclusion in a required reading list or curriculum is equivalent to attempting to remove it from a library.

[mamaraby]

Frankly, I think the standard is backward. It shouldn't be, "is this book too bad in some way to be here?" it should be, "We have limited space and resources and our students have limited time to read.....is this book good enough, edifying enough, to be here? Is it worthy of a place on our shelves?" Lots of ok books aren't going to make a standard like that. That's fine. There is still Amazon, Project Gutenberg, book stores, thrift stores (where I recently saw 50 Shades for $.50), and the public library.

See, and that's such a loaded standard. It's certainly not how I'd select books and even if it were, there's absolutely no way we could agree on that in the wider community.

[Jane in NC]

I like the policy used by the Honors English teacher my son will have next year in Middle School. She has a wide reading list of serious literature. Among the list there is a subset of books that (due to theme, content or language) require parent permission slips. This keeps the reading list wide ( inclusive of what might be called "banned books", while respecting parental decisions.

 

Bill

 

While indeed this seems to be a sound policy, I must comment on that fact that your son will be or is in Middle School, Bill.  :svengo: Good grief!  Where do the years go?

[Mom-ninja.]

It seems to me that a little common sense should be involved in the school reading lists.  I have no problem with the Glass Castle on a high school reading list.  But, I do have a serious problem with that book by the urban author that describes in detail and glorifies child molest------- being on the Common Core list of books for teachers to choose from.  

Which book is that? 

[Spy Car]

While indeed this seems to be a sound policy, I must comment on that fact that your son will be or is in Middle School, Bill. :svengo: Good grief! Where do the years go?

He starts next year. We're dusting off that Dolciani book, the time is nigh.

 

He got into the (well-rounded) Accelerated Math Academy program he'd had his sights on for years. We're happy.

 

But boy do the years fly past!

 

Bill

[Jane in NC]

He starts next year. We're dusting off that Dolciani book, the time is nigh.

 

He got into the (well-rounded) Accelerated Math Academy program he'd had his sights on for years. We're happy.

 

But boy do the years fly past!

 

Bill

 

My guy graduated from college in May.  Dolciani served him well.

 

[Word Nerd]

Which book is that? 

 

I'm guessing The Bluest Eye.

[HRAAB]

Banning books - never.

 

Parents requesting another book or asking parents' permission - yes

[Lady Florida.]

I don't think books should be banned. They should be kept from the school library because some parents don't like them.

 

Required reading is different. I think there should always be an alternative to a required book in case a parent objects or the subject matter is a trigger for the student.

[itsheresomewhere]

There is a woman in our local homeschool group who wants to ban quite a few books from high schoolers.  Some on her list include- 1984, The Grapes of Wrath, The Color Purple, Anything related to Lord of the Rings, The Great Gatsby, etc.  Her list is very long and she actually had people supporting her.  I feel for the child when he goes to college.  

 

Don't ban books but offer an alternative for some who can not handle the content.

 

 

 

 

[KrissiK]

Banning books.... unfortunately, no, I don't think books should be banned.

 

However, I agree I with a previous poster in that with the large amount of quality literature available, we should be choosing the best, literature that has stood the test of time, literature that promotes the values we as a culture want to transmit to the next generation, literature that is edifying. And no, everyone might not agree on everything, but I do believe that when it really comes down to it, it can be done.

[TammyS]

There is a woman in our local homeschool group who wants to ban quite a few books from high schoolers.  Some on her list include- 1984, The Grapes of Wrath, The Color Purple, Anything related to Lord of the Rings, The Great Gatsby, etc.  Her list is very long and she actually had people supporting her.  I feel for the child when he goes to college.  

 

Don't ban books but offer an alternative for some who can not handle the content.

 

What does she want to ban them FROM?  Existence? The public library? Her home?  I'm not really sure what this means, as she's a homeschooler.

[Word Nerd]

There is a woman in our local homeschool group who wants to ban quite a few books from high schoolers.  Some on her list include- 1984, The Grapes of Wrath, The Color Purple, Anything related to Lord of the Rings, The Great Gatsby, etc.  Her list is very long and she actually had people supporting her.  I feel for the child when he goes to college.  

 

Don't ban books but offer an alternative for some who can not handle the content.

 

I remember several parents on the local homeschool email list we used to be a part of freaking out because one of the local high school classes was reading The Giver. I don't think any of them had ever read the book.

[Stacia]

Ah, a topic near & dear to my heart (as you can tell by my signature). As for suggestions of banned books to read, look at the ALA's lists.

 

We had a thread last year about this very topic. Here's the link to the discussion, plus copy one of my posts from there....

 

--------------------------------

 

But not everyone has the same idea of what books "cater to the age ranges & grade levels" and that is where challenges are useful.  Treating every challenge as a infringement on free speech when those SAME books are still available in other venues. (Ie they aren't banned. The parent is challenging the book as appropriate for this library at this time. They aren't saying the book should NEVER be available anywhere). When it is your library in your home, you get to decide for yourself what books are there.  When it is a community's library, it seems to me the community should decide. And any person within that community should feel free to express themselves about the content -- even if it is to disagree with the judgement of another member. And a conversation should happen. It may turn out that the benefits of the book are such that it should remain. But when you just shut the disagreeing members up with cries of "CENSORSHIP" should they even DARE to challenge a book's appropriateness, those conversations DON'T happen and it takes conversation to change hearts and minds.

 

Maybe we are defining things differently. 'Challenges' are formal requests for a library to remove a book or books from their shelves. So, a 'challenge' is not really a conversation or discussion about why a book is or is not appropriate for one's family, but rather a formal process & attempt to remove the material from the venue (making it inaccessible to all). True, the book may still be available other places (such as a county or city library or through purchasing it), but not every student has access to other places; perhaps the only library the student has access to is the school library. (I'm using a school library as the example since that's what we've been doing up to this point.)

 

Certainly, I agree with you that discussions need to take place. That's totally ok -- it can & should happen, especially in a society that values free speech as outlined in our First Amendment. Discussions can happen within families, between parents, between parents & school administrators/teachers/librarians, within communities, etc.... I think it's perfectly fine for a parent or family to decide that a book is not for them. An easy answer is, of course, just to not read the book. If it happens to be an assigned book, I think it's great to have a discussion with a teacher, state reasons, ask for &/or suggest alternative assignments or books to read, & so on. Discuss it with the school administrators & librarians too. Perhaps even request that your child not be allowed to check out a particular book. Talk to other parents about how you feel about the assigned book/reading & alternatives you have. That said, I think it's important for discussions to take place *before* a challenge is made. Because once a challenge is made (request to remove an item), the censorship ball is rolling (because someone is actively working to remove the book from all access rather than just choosing to avoid it themselves) & infringing on the rights of others (those who may not agree with removing the book &/or who do want their children to read the book).

 

Page 3 and page 9 of this document define book banning (or attempts to get books banned) & why that is not a good idea in a society that values free speech.... The next two excerpts are from the 2013-2014 Books Challenged or Banned by Robert P. Doyle. The bolding is mine. (It is not bolded in the original text.)

 

Sex, profanity, and racism remain the primary categories of objections, and most occur in schools and school libraries. Frequently, challenges are motivated by the desire to protect children. While the intent is commendable, this method of protection contains hazards far greater than exposure to the “evil†against which it is leveled. U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, in Texas v. Johnson , said, “If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the Government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.†Individuals may restrict what they themselves or their children read, but they must not call on governmental or public agencies to prevent others from reading or viewing that material.

 

and

 

The First Amendment guarantees that each of us has the right to express our views, including opinions about particular books. At the same time, the First Amendment also ensures that none of us has the right to control or limit another person’s ability to read or access information. Yet when individuals or groups file formal written requests demanding that libraries and schools remove specific books from the shelves, they are doing just that—attempting to restrict the rights of other individuals to access those books.

 

The rights and protections of the First Amendment extend to children and teens as well as adults. While parents have the right—and the responsibility—to guide their own children’s reading, that right does not extend to other people’s children. Similarly each adult has the right to choose his or her own reading materials, along with the responsibility to acknowledge and respect the right of others to do the same.

 

When we speak up to protect the right to read, we not only defend our individual right to free expression, we demonstrate tolerance and respect for opposing points of view. And when we take action to preserve our precious freedoms, we become participants in the ongoing evolution of our democratic society.

 

Also (sourced from wikipedia's article on Freedom of Speech):

 

The right to freedom of expression is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Article 19 of the ICCPR states that "[e]veryone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference" and "everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice".

[Mommy22alyns]

No, I do not think books should be banned, but to me that means the government is banning the book.  I don't think selective choosing of books for libraries constitutes banning.  You're still free to go to another library or bookstore.  Every library/whatever does not have to have every book or thing.

 

I think that alternative books should be available to high schoolers.  But past a certain age, I have no problem with things like 1984, Brave New World, The Jungle, or Grapes of Wrath.  I read GoW in 11th grade and enjoyed it - I just re-read it recently, and TBH I missed a lot of the sexual elements of it the first time.

 

I rather like to be obstinate and read banned books myself.

[itsheresomewhere]

What does she want to ban them FROM?  Existence? The public library? Her home?  I'm not really sure what this means, as she's a homeschooler.

She was trying to get them banned from schools.  I am not sure she even read half of the books on the list.

[foxbridgeacademy]

I don't think it's remotely reasonable to ban books. 

 

I do think its OK to request another book for your child, if you have objections - or more importantly, know that your child cannot deal with certain themes or topics - and I'd expect a teacher to accommodate that request.

 

Banning the book takes the choice away from other families and their children. Some of us don't censor our children's reading and don't appreciate other parents doing it on our behalf.

:iagree:

[In The Great White North]

The whole Banned Book thing seems odd to me.  

 

Why would I want to read a book simply because someone else didn't like it?  Life's too short.  I want recommendations of books people did like.

[Mom-ninja.]

The whole Banned Book thing seems odd to me.  

 

Why would I want to read a book simply because someone else didn't like it?  Life's too short.  I want recommendations of books people did like.

 

Depends on who didn't like it and why they didn't like it. Sometimes that tells me enough to know that I will like the book. 

 

I also like to support authors who have the guts to write about certain topics. I also like to support authors whose books are challenged or banned due to what I consider to be a ridiculous reason. Maurice Sendak comes to mind. 

 

 

 

 

As for books that people do like? Fifty Shades of Grey was/is a hugely popular, successful series, yet you could not PAY me to read those books. I wanted to poke my eyes out when I tired reading the first one. I feel the same way about the Outlander series. These books have been made into movies and TV shows, but I hate those books. With a passion hate them.  

[Spy Car]

The whole Banned Book thing seems odd to me.  

 

Why would I want to read a book simply because someone else didn't like it?  Life's too short.  I want recommendations of books people did like.

 

I think you're missing the point. I, personally, don't read books "simply because someone else didn't like them," but for their literary value.

 

The American Library Association website lists the 100 Top Novels of the 20th Century (according to the Radclife Publishing Course) that have been deemed banned or challenged books:

 

1. The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald

2. The Catcher in the Rye, by J.D. Salinger

3. The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck

4. To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee

5. The Color Purple, by Alice Walker

6. Ulysses, by James Joyce

7. Beloved, by Toni Morrison

8. The Lord of the Flies, by William Golding

9. 1984, by George Orwell

11. Lolita, by Vladmir Nabokov

12. Of Mice and Men, by John Steinbeck

15. Catch-22, by Joseph Heller

16. Brave New World, by Aldous Huxley

17. Animal Farm, by George Orwell

18. The Sun Also Rises, by Ernest Hemingway

19. As I Lay Dying, by William Faulkner

20. A Farewell to Arms, by Ernest Hemingway

23. Their Eyes Were Watching God, by Zora Neale Hurston

24. Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison

25. Song of Solomon, by Toni Morrison

26. Gone with the Wind, by Margaret Mitchell

27. Native Son, by Richard Wright

28. One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, by Ken Kesey

29. Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut

30. For Whom the Bell Tolls, by Ernest Hemingway

33. The Call of the Wild, by Jack London

36. Go Tell it on the Mountain, by James Baldwin

38. All the King's Men, by Robert Penn Warren

40. The Lord of the Rings, by J.R.R. Tolkien

45. The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair

48. Lady Chatterley's Lover, by D.H. Lawrence

49. A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess

50. The Awakening, by Kate Chopin

53. In Cold Blood, by Truman Capote

55. The Satanic Verses, by Salman Rushdie

57. Sophie's Choice, by William Styron

64. Sons and Lovers, by D.H. Lawrence

66. Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut

67. A Separate Peace, by John Knowles

73. Naked Lunch, by William S. Burroughs

74. Brideshead Revisited, by Evelyn Waugh

75. Women in Love, by D.H. Lawrence

80. The Naked and the Dead, by Norman Mailer

84. Tropic of Cancer, by Henry Miller

88. An American Tragedy, by Theodore Dreiser

97. Rabbit, Run, by John Updike

 

Bill

[Mom-ninja.]

Haven't heard of The Bluest Eye so I was wondering. Thanks

[Ohdanigirl]

Ok, multi quote is not working for me again. I'll try to do my best to address as many of your great responses as I can.

 

First offf, Spycar's son is entering middle school next year. 😱 Wow! Time does fly.

 

I think Sadie summed up how I feel. I understand that some parents may encourage their dc to avoid certain books but feel I should have the right to allow my child to read those same books. In addition, I expect some level of maturity from my children by the time they hit high school. Another poster mentioned that the had read The Glass Castle and would not want their teen to read it, and I respect that. Each family and child is different. I have chosen to allow my son to read it, as I feel he can truly handle it. I know he will be turned off by the cursing, but not shocked. Mostly, I know my son would feel 100% comfortable coming to me and discussing the sensitive topics found in the book. In recent months he has come to me to discuss many sensitive topics and really doesn't seem bothered to discuss these things with any adult.

 

I do agree that there should be alternatives for those who feel strongly about a book and would prefer an different book. I especially feel that steps need to be taken to protect those that may have suffered some of the things that occur in a few of these books.

 

My comment about seeking out banned books wasn't because I simply like to read things someone else disliked. It had more to do with the fact that the banned books list (see Spycar's list) contains many examples of fine literature. I also think it is interesting to read them first hand while considering the historical significance or reasoning behind the banning. I am not really a fan of many of the pop-culture type books most people would recommend to me. I may read The Hunger Games because I prefer to read a book before watching the movie, but prefer books with more depth.

 

As for 50 Shades of Gray, I haven't read the book nor have I seen the movie. I guess it just didn't. Interest me at all.

[Word Nerd]

The whole Banned Book thing seems odd to me.  

 

Why would I want to read a book simply because someone else didn't like it?  Life's too short.  I want recommendations of books people did like.

 

In many cases, the same titles would be on both lists.

[Lady Florida.]

Ugh. Fifty Shades of Gray.  :tongue_smilie: I downloaded the sample when it came out because I was curious about all the publicity it received. That was some of the worst writing I've ever read. And yet, I defended the book.

 

When the book first came out, my library system ordered the book and ebook and made it available. About 2 weeks later, in response to complaints, they planned to pull it. Word got out and there were meetings all around the county. Now had they decided not to buy it in the first place, that would be fine. Public libraries have limited funds and they always have to make decisions about what books NOT to choose. But in this case they were pulling copies (and electronic copies) of a book that already had ridiculously long waiting lists. Obviously the community they served wanted that book. And for that reason I felt they had no right to ban it. And for that reason I defended a book I think is just awful. 

 

They ended up keeping the copies mostly because of the nationwide negative publicity they were getting over the issue.

 

 

[MomtoCandJ]

Hmm I have read 14 of those "banned books" all of them for high school

[Sneezyone]

Goodness, that list includes most of my favorite books (and some I hated but still read).