help me understand this mentality...sorry...a semi long rant

[Serenade]

This is my biggest gripe about kids sports today -- how young they start, and that if a child doesn't start young, like preschool/kindergarten, they might as well give up ever playing because they will forever be behind everyone else, and nobody wants to take the time to train kids at the ripe old age of third grade.  My goodness, they are so past their prime.

 

For this reason we ended up going with Boy Scouts for my boys, because it was quite OK to start out late, and I figure sports like hiking, canoeing, camping & climbing will all be things they can easily take into their adult lives, and that won't depend on others whether or not they can participate since these sports can be done alone, as well as with a group.   I guess scouting is more flexible, something our family appreciates as well. 

 

 

Just wanting to add something else here, too, that may be applicable to other groups who feel the loss of kids to sports.  Our scout Troop takes a very flexible attitude towards kids who participate in team sports.  We have a couple of kids who barely participate in scouts during football season, but they participate in their off season, and we are happy to have them then, no guilt or penalties.  Obviously if someone participated in year-round team sports, this sort of arrangement could be kind of difficult, but perhaps churches and others who are feeling the sports drain could put out extra effort to welcome athletes during their downtime.  I say extra effort because probably many of these athletes feel they wouldn't be welcomed if they can't participate year round.

[Haiku]

 

Why are you taking this personally if it doesn't apply to you? We love sport.

 

I'm not taking it personally. I don't care what random strangers on the internet think of my family or my choices. But it's kind-of hard to have a discussion if you can't use personal examples to back up your opinions and experiences, isn't it?

 

 

 

You did not read my post.

 

You may believe that I misunderstood your post, but that does not mean I did not read it. Of course I read it. How could I respond if I didn't? My impression of your post was that you think people who devote a lot of time to sports are going crazy ridiculous overboard, subjecting their kids to injury, and driving themselves into financial ruin. If that's not what you mean, mea culpa. Your post was unclear to me.

[Jane in NC]

We have games on weekday evenings as well as Saturdays.  Which is challenging, but as long as we have the schedule in advance, it's workable.

 

 

The same fields are allocated for practice during the weekday evenings.  When my son was young, there was one practice and one game per week.  My middle school, he had two (longer) practices and one or two games on the weekend.  Fortunately the fields are illuminated.

 

[SKL]

The same fields are allocated for practice during the weekday evenings.  When my son was young, there was one practice and one game per week.  My middle school, he had two (longer) practices and one or two games on the weekend.  Fortunately the fields are illuminated.

 

 

Well anyway, it worked for us.  I assume the people who meet to set the schedule are the coaches, who either have kids or work with kids or both.  I'm guessing that someone in that group values going to church on Sunday and points out that many players' parents will feel the same.

 

We use the same fields for practice and games.  I don't know whether we have more fields than other communities.  I agree that we are blessed to have an arrangement that works pretty well for us.

 

As my kids get older, I know we will need to drop some activities.  I'm honestly not sure which ones we'll be willing to drop.  I'm guessing soccer will be the first to go once the kids can join school sports.

[Tsuga]

Kids miss school for all sorts of reasons. Parents pull their kids out for vacations, funerals, doctor appointments, just because days.  I know that several hundred will be missing a day of school in a few weeks for the Age Group State Championships. Parents can be trusted to make those decisions.

Missing a few days of school is not the end of the world, nor does it mean that parents don't value education.

 

No, it's not the end of the world. And I trust most parents to make that decision. Most parents are making a decision not to miss school, but that doesn't mean some parents are wrong to make a different choice.

 

However, when it's regular missing of school--not for the state championships, but throughout the season, heck yeah I would question that decision.

 

And no we do not pull our kids out for vacation or just because--ever. Period. We will do doctor's appointments if necessary though I'd sooner wait three months out. A funeral or illness are pretty much the only reasons my kids miss school. It is the only reason I missed school as a child (until I was old enough and decided to skip once or twice, but that was my teenager brain, not my mom brain--my mom's brain and my mom brain say no missing school).

 

And no we don't miss work either. Though I am fully aware that some people take off just because days all the time. We don't.

 

I'm not taking it personally. I don't care what random strangers on the internet think of my family or my choices. But it's kind-of hard to have a discussion if you can't use personal examples to back up your opinions and experiences, isn't it?

 

 

But you are defending a lifestyle like yours and it doesn't sound like I've posted about a lifestyle like yours. That's why I don't get it.

 

You may believe that I misunderstood your post, but that does not mean I did not read it. Of course I read it. How could I respond if I didn't?

 

 

You didn't respond, though. You put words in my post that weren't there. You didn't address that I have actually lived with some of these people, that I know them well, and that I've heard their own first-person regrets. You assumed that that was not the case. You didn't reply to "Wow, Binip. I am shocked to hear that you know someone whose 12-year-old injured out of a sport, for which her younger sister sacrificed two years of her own sports potential. That sounds nuts."

 

Instead you insisted that it couldn't be. To me, that is not reading something for what it says.

 

My impression of your post was that you think people who devote a lot of time to sports are going crazy ridiculous overboard, subjecting their kids to injury, and driving themselves into financial ruin. If that's not what you mean, mea culpa. Your post was unclear to me.

 

No, that is not what I said. I was incredibly specific and even wrote, "I am not talking about people who are not subjecting their child to risk of injury."

 

This is where my impression of defensiveness comes off. But I am sorry if that is the wrong impression.

 

I don't see 3x/week practice for a kid over 10, or 5 nights during the season for a 13+ kid, as obsessive. I get that.

 

And I don't see ANY posts that are truly defending this level of competitiveness where you have a kid that literally cannot learn an instrument (I don't mean compete I mean learn, you can only specialize in one thing, that's what specializing means) and cannot go to church or scouts, and cannot have a life.

 

Instead people are saying, "Well I do have a life."

 

Which is great. I was not expecting the response to, "There is a culture around here that means if you're in sports, you can't have a life" to be "But I have a life." To me that just means, you're not in the culture of concern. Not that the culture of concern doesn't exist.

 

[Haiku]

"Wow, Binip. I am shocked to hear that you know someone whose 12-year-old injured out of a sport, for which her younger sister sacrificed two years of her own sports potential. That sounds nuts."

 

Instead you insisted that it couldn't be. 

 

Well, that's not what I was trying to do. I was trying to illustrate that people could put in long hours and lots of devotion to a sport and not be the crazy people you were talking about. I think we agree more than we disagree; we just had a communication error. :D

[Hyacinth]

Just wanted to throw in a plug for Upward Sports for those of you who desire non-competitive but meaningful team athletics for your youngsters (K-6th or so). We found these programs to be excellent for gaining fundamental skills in soccer, basketball, and flag football. The time commitment was small (one hour practice during the week and one hour game on Saturday morning), and the return on that investment was exceptional, IMHO.

 

I don't know what's involved in starting a program, but it may be worth exploring if you don't have one locally.

 

It's a Christian organization, so the leagues are typically sponsored by churches.

 

 

 

 

[Mommy22alyns]

Well, surely we are one of the families you are ranting about. We do travel trips and yes, spend hundreds, if not thousands on our kids' sports. And yes, we compete on Sundays as well. I would challenge your assumption that it is just sports. We know families spending the equivalent amount of money and time on dance or music. Marching band is a big one.

We do it because we have a couple of kids involved that are hugely talented. Yes, scholarships are few and far between, but I could not look myself in the mirror if I did not do what I could for my child's talent and passion. These kids were given to me for a short time with talents that are God-given and I have a responsibility to that.

 

I can't speak for all parents, but that is why we do what we do. And I guess I don't really care if other people think it is foolish, shortsighted or ridiculous.

 

 

ITA.  It's not like I went looking for something to spend big money and time on.  I was given a natural gymnast.  Gymnastics is funny - you can only do so much without being competitive.  If I were to pull Rebecca off team, she basically couldn't do gymnastics, because all of the rec classes top out somewhere around back handsprings.  By this point, she could probably co-teach a rec class.  But I don't know if I could live with myself if we didn't let her follow her talents.  So, she  is at the gym 18 hours a week, 5 days a week.  We travel 2-3 hours five times a year for meets.  We pay tuition, booster club dues, meet fees, and buy gear. That's just where we are.

 

I honestly don't care what other parents do or don't do, or what they think of what we do.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We had to pull the plug on gymnastics a long time ago.  It was not right for our family financially, socially or spiritually.  In order to continue we would have had to give it a priority that would have upset other priorities that we needed to have for our family.  And yet it was really really hard to do.  It meant that dd was leaving some really good friends because other girls in that sport really did not have time to pursue any close relationships outside of the sport.  (They tried but it just wasn't sustainable.)  It meant that my natural gymnast couldn't do what she loved.  Her teacher was in  tears when she left and they worked out a really good deal for her to stay on the team but even then it wasn't workable for us.  I know other gym moms who work a part-time job on top of fundraisers just to pay for the sport.  With my chronic illness I couldn't do that.  Anyway. . . our personal reasons aren't really the point of me posting here.  The point is that ultimately keeping our priorities right for our family has been a good thing.  We did have a rough couple of years emotionally after leaving the sport but now both dd and I are fine.  And dd has discovered that she's also a natural runner.  And running is much less expensive and much more flexible and fits with our family's priorities.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Fair enough. We live in a medium-sized city, and sports opportunities are coming out our ears. It's strange to think there are places where there is nothing.

 

Btw, I was adamant with my dh that I was not going to be a sports mom. But when your five-year-old DAUGHTER comes to you and says, "I want to play hockey!" it's hard to say no. ;)

 

There are more options for little kids.  My kids did a ton of that stuff when they were 5ish.  But now?  Nah...if you aren't serious into it, there aren't many options.

[hornblower]

made me think of

 

 

Big League - Tom Cochrane song

 

and

Hoop Dreams  - documentary

It's not a culture I really understand; we're not really interested in competitive sport.  I get that some people are.

But there's lots that I don't get about some people. Living in Hollywood North, the other big obsession is acting/musical theater/dancing/modelling. I know a lot of people whose kids are heavily involved in that &  it's just as 'not my cup of tea' as competitive sport.  One woman in my little baby group way back when was already dragging her baby to auditions for ads etc. I was going to the park and snuggling with books on a couch and she was grooming her to be the next child star.  I couldn't relate at all....

the stereotypical stage moms, the sideline yelling dads -  they're stereotypes because they exist.

I think for many kids these activities are just a harmless fun way of expressing themselves or shining in a specific field or using some amazing talents and skills. For some they become their careers - and that's great if they're really loving it.

 

 

For some (just some, not all, not you, dear reader) parents, I think it's linked to a modern worry about the world and the future, and a sort of star struck naivete about helping their kids make it big.

& if you want to know how bad it's getting - we have refs quitting & a minor hockey association actually BANNING parents from attending their kids' games, because the parents are that out of control.

[FaithManor]

I guess we are one of "those" families as well. We spend about $2000.00 per year on the rocketry, the competitive team specifically, and another $1000.00 or more on other 4-H pursuits. We travel to the Michigan State campus for activities as well as for speaking engagements since DH and I are the only exclusive STEM club leaders in the state, and we travel every year to the D.C. area for the TARC finals with the entire teams, plus routinely to NAR fields in Ann Arbor and Muskegon when students want to get their high powered rocket licenses. These licenses can only be procured by flying high powered in front of NAR officials at these fields which have FAA clearance for flights that can potentially exceed one mile in altitude. It is a three hour drive (one way) to the field in Ann Arbor which is only cleared for high powered flights on the third Sunday of each month, and four hours to Muskegon (again one way).

 

Our kids are passionate about it, and very talented. They would be down hearted if they could not pursue their interests. Sometimes Dh and I are together with all of these teens, and sometimes we are headed in two separate directions, but the time we each spend with our kids and the other teens in our 4-H club is precious. We have made some amazing memories together. Our marriage and our family have not suffered for it. No regrets.

 

Every family is different and has individual needs so do not assume that relationships are suffering just because they make choices you do not.

 

Cautionary tale, our pastor and his wife are going through a difficult period with their eldest who is suffering from depression, much of which is related to isolation and the fact that she has some areas of giftedness that they have refused to allow her to pursue because it would interfere with Wednesday night activities or the occasional Sunday. She has been suicidal. This is not some "I want" temper tantrum, but true depression and anxiety because she is so talented and has no outlet for it and it has shook her self esteem to the core. Thankfully, she has started eating again.

 

Better to assume the best about people who do not choose your particular lifestyle than the worst.

[Mommy22alyns]

We had to pull the plug on gymnastics a long time ago.  It was not right for our family financially, socially or spiritually.  In order to continue we would have had to give it a priority that would have upset other priorities that we needed to have for our family.  And yet it was really really hard to do.  It meant that dd was leaving some really good friends because other girls in that sport really did not have time to pursue any close relationships outside of the sport.  (They tried but it just wasn't sustainable.)  It meant that my natural gymnast couldn't do what she loved.  Her teacher was in  tears when she left and they worked out a really good deal for her to stay on the team but even then it wasn't workable for us.  I know other gym moms who work a part-time job on top of fundraisers just to pay for the sport.  With my chronic illness I couldn't do that.  Anyway. . . our personal reasons aren't really the point of me posting here.  The point is that ultimately keeping our priorities right for our family has been a good thing.  We did have a rough couple of years emotionally after leaving the sport but now both dd and I are fine.  And dd has discovered that she's also a natural runner.  And running is much less expensive and much more flexible and fits with our family's priorities.  

 

 

Jean, I'm glad your DD has discovered another natural talent.  :grouphug:

[LizzyBee]

For us, it's Irish dance. I never pictured us getting in this deep, but it's my 13 year old's passion. She eats, drinks, breathes, and sleeps dance. (That's almost not an exaggeration. Some of the moms have seen their kids' feet dancing while they're sleeping.) She is going to Worlds on Easter weekend; I'm not thrilled, but that's when it is, so she either goes then or misses it. One of the regional competitions (not our region) is on Thanksgiving weekend every year, so there are families who plan on spending Thanksgiving there and they've given up their previous traditions. I never thought I'd be ordering dance shoes from England and spending more on them than I've ever spent on a pair of shoes for myself; or paying more for a dance dress than most people pay for a wedding dress. The money is the most stressful part of dance for me. 

 

So why do we do it? For us and many of the other families in our school, dance has transformed our kids. My kid has dyslexia, auditory processing disorder, sensory processing disorder, and ADHD. If it weren't for dance, she'd probably still be in occupational therapy. Dance gives her the sensory stimulation that she physiologically craves. When she has a break from dance (snow days, Christmas break), she is stir crazy and her ADHD starts raging. Dance has taught her rhythm, and lack of rhythm and timing is a part of the dyslexia puzzle. In addition to the therapeutic value of dance, she has learned winning and losing gracefully, discipline, the value of hard work, and speaking to people in any social situation. She has poise and confidence that I've not seen in many kids her age.

 

As for family time, she and I have had some of our best talks driving back and forth to competitions. Hours together in the car can be good quality time. We've traveled as a family to competitions and sometimes make a vacation or long weekend of it. Our older girls are in college now, but if K. goes to Nationals in July in RI, they both want to go. None of us has been to RI except maybe my husband. Besides the dancing, we'll do something fun for the whole family while we're there.

 

 

 

[Lisbeth]

I grew up in a church that expected you there Sunday mornings, Sunday nights and Wednesday nights. That was too much. It is quite possible to go overboard on something other that sports. That schedule probably arose when church was the spiritual AND social center of their members' lives, often to the exclusion of other activities. Thank goodness that is no longer the case, and Christians are out in the community where they belong.

 

Agree.

Still reading, only got this far and maybe someone already said it - but somewhere maybe there are coaches of sports teams with kids confiding in them that their Church commitments are too much for them, and they wish their parents got that, and they felt too much pressure to attend.

 

The OP is probably seeing this through the lens of her husband being a Pastor.  Sports are not the problem here...lack of communication and balance in a child's life is.  There is no one-size-fits-all.  Some kids are going to thrive on a travelling sports situation.  Some are going to love going to Church events multiple times per week.

[IdahoHomeschooler]

This isn't so much a "mentality," as it is a difference in values. I personally, place absolutely little value on team sports, so I'm not going to spend my time on money on such things. I also don't relate well to people that do, and that's ok, because they won't likely relate well to me based on my values. From your post, you seem to highly value church activities and more traditional ideas of "family time." I find very little value in church and traditional family activities, especially those that occur on Sundays. In fact, I purposefully schedule myself to work on weekends. That is because the activities that i do value tend to take place during the week. We all value things differently, and tend to spend our time and money on things we value highly.

 

I think it would be safe to assume that what you and I and everyone else on this board value highly, is our children's education :) That is the common bond that brings us together on this forum, interacting with and supporting one another, as we try to provide our children with what we feel is the best for them. Understanding that most parents are trying to do what they feel is best for their family is important, whether that be sports, church, dance, cheer, drama, robotics, whatever.

[LizzyBee]

Same here. I don't think Tara has a grasp on the reality of rural America. My guess is that more areas than she realizes do not offer recreational sports. There is nothing offered here in my town. No YMCA, no community rec sports, no little league. The closest is over 25 miles away. Many areas just do not have the money, and the parents don't have the funds, either. They do have sports in schools, but homeschoolers are not allowed.

 

That's interesting to me, because I grew up on a farm 5 miles outside of a town of 250 residents. One of the nearby towns had Little League baseball and rec football even when I was a kid. A lot of my family still lives in that area, and my nieces kids play recreational sports. I guess it all depends on the area, its resources, and having enough dedicated parents to make it happen. Another town had an adult baseball league that my brother played on for years.

[Lady Marmalade]

Wow.  We're one of those families, only it's dance. Which, if you are as involved in dance as we are, you recognize it as a very intense sport.

 

Clearly you've never had an enjoyable road trip with your family.  Oh my gosh, that time in the car is some of the BEST time I spend with my kids.  We travel 3-5 hours for our weekend competitions, and we love every minute.  On the way there, it's as if we were going to a theme park for the weekend.  The kids are full of excitement and chatter, and it's so contagious.   On the way home, we're all exhausted, but in a very good way.  The kids did their best, and we spend the time talking about what they could do better at the next one, what dances they loved seeing, what costumes caught their eye, things like that.   We have our best and most intimate conversations as a family when we're riding in the car.

 

And as for missing a few Sundays... I am extremely blessed to be part of a fellowship that gives their blessing for us to be busy on occasion for our children.  We have three services a week, plus we host at least five conferences a year- there can be as many as 10 services in one weekend if it's a conference week.  We attend church every time the door is open because we want to- and we serve in many areas.  We miss exactly five Sundays (two services on Sunday) a year because of the activities of our children- and we do so with our Pastor's blessing because he knows how much joy it brings to our family.  And in the grand scheme of 200 or so services a year, the fact that we miss ten of them is not going to send us to you-know-where.  

 

Our lifestyle makes our whole family very happy, and that's what matters.  I look at other people doing other things, and I wonder how they manage?  I hate watching soccer, so those soccer moms must be truly special, because I can't imagine wanting to watch game after game, tournament after tournament.  But I bet that soccer mom looks at me and thinks the same thing about dance.  But it works for them, and the dance world works for us.  

[LibraryLover]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pi7LZh2LKY

 

This is not my child, but yes, just like my child.

 

Try to say no.  lol

[FaithManor]

No, many don't. My house may be in the boonies, but there are small towns/villages every few miles.  They don't have sports outside of school.  That's it. No adult softball. They do have senior citizen centers that offer lunch, bingo, square dancing and eucre. And sure, most people don't live in the boonies, but you're still missing the point. It's also not a real "choice" for people to live rural. In a way, I understand what you're saying, tho.  It takes money for sports-- at least the ones that need more than a T shirt and pants. When the towns are struggling to pay for plowing and road repairs, when there are mobile food pantries three times a month in the county, maintaining baseball fields, tennis courts, hockey rinks-- not gonna happen. It's not a population problem, it's funds. Money. Some people never seem to really understand that.

ETA--I think the adults in my county get their physical activity by farming/working long hours to keep their family together. The schools provide the sports for the children. There are also parks in town.  They're small, but clean. Some have a waking path with swingsets for kids, sometimes a pond for fishing.

This is the norm for area. I think we have AYSO soccer and that's it.

 

The schools offer football, basketball, baseball, and track for boys, basketball, volleyball, softball, and track for girls. Adult sports do not exist, and most of our roads are dangerous for bikes. We have a few that are okay, and our boys use those. The parks are limited to a small amount of land with a few picnic tables, a couple of slides, and some swings.

 

One community has a public, outdoor pool that is open Memorial Day through Labor Day weekend.

 

Parents travel far afield for activities that parents in urban areas take for granted. Money is scarce.

 

For my son's art lessons, the closest drawing instructor who gave private sessions was one hour away. Our county no longer even has a piano teacher since I am not maintaining a music studio at this time.

 

If it weren't for 4-H and Scouts, there would be NOTHING for children outside what the PS provides thus zip for the summer. The bowling alley is the only adult activity that involves any physical exercise whatsoever in our area, and the community band (which I used to direct) was discontinued in the county seat due to funding cuts. Eventually, I couldn't even get broken music stands replaced, maintenance on our band shell, or music purchased. We had to quit. They recently also ended the community choir program due to funding issues.

 

So, travel is very, very normal hear. Churches provide almost nothing, and what little they do have is of course for members only, so not an option for many families.

 

Our kids do cross country skiing in the winter on some local trails. But, that is an expensive sport so most families could never afford that. When we want to downhill, we have to spend a lot of money traveling.

[Carol in Cal.]

A few years back my DD had an opportunity to sing in the children's chorus of a professional opera.

I looked at the schedule carefully, and it seemed doable with some sacrifice, but it was a really extraordinary opportunity in her field of interest so we decided to support her in participating.
 

I emailed the artistic director and told her that DD would be available for all scheduled rehearsals, and that we would do our best to support her in attending extras if they popped up, except during Holy Week itself.  I gave her the dates.  This was in February.

 

Wouldn't you know, two major, long, 'right before opening night week' rehearsals popped up on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday.  So I emailed her again and basically said, as I mentioned before, DD is not available those two nights during church, do you want us to come afterwards or just skip them?  And she had a major freak out, was furious about it really.  She said it was completely unacceptable and that DD had to come to both entire rehearsals.  She completely refused to acknowledge that this was our agreement at the beginning.  

This is typical behavior in any art or sport team activity.  They basically own you, or you quit, despite all of your efforts to set reasonable boundaries in advance.  There is no middle ground.  And it's particularly onerous, I think, to homeschoolers, who are used to being completely in charge.

Things worked out remarkably in this particular case.

 

A church added *one time only* a noon Maundy Thursday service, so I was OK with taking DD there and letting her go to rehearsal that evening.  This is the only time I have ever seen an LCMS church have a daytime Maundy Thursday service in my life, before or since, so we were unusually blessed.  And since she attended the full MT rehearsal, I thought we would probably get away with showing up late on Good Friday, after church, and in fact that is what we did, and it was fine.

 

But we could easily have ended up walking away from the whole thing, and that would have been bad for everyone.

 

I wish that more organizations that involve children could more predictably schedule their time.  

But I also wish that more churches would hold services at nonstandard times.  I think that they would be surprised at how many people would come out of the woodwork to a Tuesday night service for instance.

[Anne in CA]

This is my biggest gripe about kids sports today -- how young they start, and that if a child doesn't start young, like preschool/kindergarten, they might as well give up ever playing because they will forever be behind everyone else, and nobody wants to take the time to train kids at the ripe old age of third grade.  My goodness, they are so past their prime.

 

For this reason we ended up going with Boy Scouts for my boys, because it was quite OK to start out late, and I figure sports like hiking, canoeing, camping & climbing will all be things they can easily take into their adult lives, and that won't depend on others whether or not they can participate since these sports can be done alone, as well as with a group.   I guess scouting is more flexible, something our family appreciates as well. 

Scouting is very flexible, and your post reminded me of how many boys in my son's huge troop never had their fathers go on one hike with them. Why? Because their fathers had trashed their knees/ backs playing football or soccer and so they never got to participate in anything other than canoeing. That is my biggest worry about sports is that when your knees are gone, they are gone, and it is not uncommon for soccer to blow out a knee. So then your health is compromised for the rest of your life, for what?

 

Edited to save kittens everywhere.

[LibraryLover]

I've been frustrated by rehearsal contracts. But I get why they exist.

[Haiku]

My friends son just had surgery on his knee. He is 14 years old, and a soccer player.

 

My sister tore a ligament in her knee playing soccer.

 

I tore a ligament in my knee working as a social worker.

 

Danger lurks in unexpected places. ;)

[FaithManor]

I think one thing that must be kept in mind is that Christianity, particularly Protestantism, is no longer the main or dominant force in family life in the US. So, those that would schedule rehearsals, practices, and events cannot just arbitrarily decide that Wednesday night or Sunday morning is going to be off limits. There are students in worship on Saturdays, some that have Friday night off limits, some that have mid week services on Thursday night, some that have mosque or synagogue activities different evenings of the week, and families that do not observe any religion who may not appreciate Sunday or Wednesday night always being off limits when they have those times set aside for something else for the family.

 

So, the only thing they can do is establish a schedule and say, "This is it. Either you can participate or you can't." Unless the coach/leader/director is paid as a full time employee for the activity, many times the schedule must work with their job schedule and responsibilities. It is not meant to be offensive, it just is what it is. Again, I don't think it's appropriate to judge families based on their choices to participate or not, or how much money they spend. Everyone makes the best choices they can for their family.

 

Due to dh's work schedule, our 4-H club meets monthly on Saturday mornings at 9:30 a.m. So, there are definitely religious groups that would have to choose not to participate. We don't apologize for it. It is what it is, and that is what works out for dh who is the primary project leader for the club.

[Jyhwkmama]

Your entire post from the title has a judgmental tone. "Mentality" is a word with negative connotation.

 

Many people in the US do not have lives that revolve around Wednesday and Sunday church. Competitive sports are legal, moral, and a good source of exercise. What concern is it of yours if a family chooses to revolve its life around sports instead of church? I am not judging you for the way you spend your family time.

 

ok...fine.  I am sorry that you are all so defensive.  I am not going to respond anymore.  

 

This came across as very defensive, FYI.

 

Poster Kinsa said, As devout Christians, it is important to our family that ds's football experience not interfere with family worship time. That's why ds belongs to a Christian football league. We do travel many hours to go to games, and we spend many hours each day at the practice field, but there's no practice on Wednesdays, and no games on Sundays in order for the team families to attend church. I find the balance to be just right for our family. 

 

I think this is very smart, Kinsa! More communities of people who are frustrated by the religious commitment/sports conflict should look into this as a solution.

 

going to church is optional. it is a gift that the Lord gives to His people. But where it gets frustrating is when the coaches won't allow the kids (or parents) to choose that option...it's either ball or no ball...there is no middle ground.  A child isn't allowed this option: to be at every other game except the one on Sunday at 1 in a town 3 hours away and still play at the next game.  A child isn't allowed to miss one practice on Wednesday night, because he went to  youth group (once every 2 weeks) and then play at the next game. 

 

Here your logic is faulty. The sports team is a secular function. The team depends on players being present at practices and games to succeed. You think that church should be an excused absence or that there should be more leeway in missing some practices and/or games. There shouldn't. Sports are not the lesser choice of the two. Sports are simply a different choice.  Once you make a commitment to a team, you (general you) need to honor it. Obviously, the best choice for your family is not to sign up for such a team/make such a commitment. Fine. However, it is irrational to expect a secular team to work around and particular schedule of religious practice. 

[Jane in NC]

I think one thing that must be kept in mind is that Christianity, particularly Protestantism, is no longer the main or dominant force in family life in the US. So, those that would schedule rehearsals, practices, and events cannot just arbitrarily decide that Wednesday night or Sunday morning is going to be off limits. There are students in worship on Saturdays, some that have Friday night off limits, some that have mid week services on Thursday night, some that have mosque or synagogue activities different evenings of the week, and families that do not observe any religion who may not appreciate Sunday or Wednesday night always being off limits when they have those times set aside for something else for the family.

 

So, the only thing they can do is establish a schedule and say, "This is it. Either you can participate or you can't." Unless the coach/leader/director is paid as a full time employee for the activity, many times the schedule must work with their job schedule and responsibilities. It is not meant to be offensive, it just is what it is. Again, I don't think it's appropriate to judge families based on their choices to participate or not, or how much money they spend. Everyone makes the best choices they can for their family.

 

Due to dh's work schedule, our 4-H club meets monthly on Saturday mornings at 9:30 a.m. So, there are definitely religious groups that would have to choose not to participate. We don't apologize for it. It is what it is, and that is what works out for dh who is the primary project leader for the club.

 

To be honest, I had never heard of Wednesday night as being sacrosanct until I moved to the South.

 

I think you are right though for those who organize clubs or activities:  choose your nights and stick with it. There is never a perfect schedule that satisfies every member of the group.

 

 

 

[LibraryLover]

I do worry about injuries. My dancer was hurt, and out of commission for a while. Not because of dance, but because of a mishap at the beach. I know concussions are a huge concern, and coaches should take care to preserve the health of their young athletes. Yet there is risk every where.  If you move, you're at risk. Carpal tunnel from typing, broken arms and legs from skiing, tennis elbow, getting hit by a car while on a bike, getting thrown from a horse while showing, or getting kicked by a spooked horse. Ice skating and getting cracked in the knee by a wayward boyfriend.

[Haiku]

My husband is the house commissioner of our hockey organization. If all the parents got their way, there would never be any practices or games. Everybody has a reason why they can't or don't want to practice on a certain night. Everybody has a reason why they can't or don't want to drive to another rink to play a game. Everybody has a reason why they don't like the time the games and practices are scheduled. When you serve 300 kids (house level, not including travel), pleasing all the people can't be on your radar. You just have to set the schedule and let the chips fall where they may.

[LizzyBee]

I've been frustrated by rehearsal contracts. But I get why they exist.

 

My daughter is on a dance team that is going to Worlds in five weeks. One girl only shows up to practice less than half of the time. It's infuriating to see kids who work so hard because they want to recall and get a good placement, and one person who is risking it all by not honoring her commitment. She is probably going to get kicked off the team after Worlds. It's just not fair to those who are comitted. Of course, everyone might have to miss a practice here and there. But more than half? No.

[SKL]

I have seen some families at church who are just as over-focused about church IMO.  The lady who is teaching my current Sunday School class is of the opinion that every member should volunteer to help out with an elaborate event she decided to plan.  She does the guilt trip by talking about how she's praying and just knows that God will lead people to do the right thing bla bla bla.  It's on a Wednesday and Thursday night.  No thanks.  My kids and I do secular stuff every weekday evening, and I am not going to be talked into feeling guilty.

 

I frequently hear about how awful it is that some people don't make their kids do more church stuff, don't set the example, bla bla bla.  (Usually this is said in the tone of "but we here aren't like that, we are the good people.")  :/

 

I don't believe my kids and I are going to Hell because we don't spend as many hours at church as some people do.  There, I've said it.

[HS Mom in NC]

I think a big factor in people choosing mega churches in America is the option of choosing church services that aren't just Sunday morning, Sunday evening or Wednesday evening. 

 

When once a month is the only option for youth group, don't be surprised if it isn't a good time and/or day for a lot of people.  If you have several options to choose from for youth group activities, you can expect more people to participate overall, but usually that means each gathering will have a smaller number of people.  You can't have everything all at once, so you need to make choices and take what comes with them.

 

Smaller churches with fewer options can only expect to appeal to a smaller percentage of church goers.  That's fine, I go to a very small church just starting out, but I don't apologize for not being there sometimes.  They only have a Sunday morning service and a mid-week small group on Wednesdays that is the same time as my youngest daughter's Tae Kwon Do. I let them know that we were already doing TKD so the small group isn't an option. 

 

Also, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop assuming an entire family is on board with the same faith.  There are scores of couples who marry someone in the same faith and later one of them walks away from the faith.  There are plenty of couples who start out with no faith at all and then later one becomes a person of faith.  If your whole church mindset is so family oriented that you consider church family time for everyone, your church isn't ministering to everyone. It's a chronic problem in America.  My church time is me with one of my children and family time with all of my family is separate from church.  Few churches even think of people in that situation and they certainly don't have anything useful or helpful to someone in my situation. It makes church irrelevant in some ways. 

 

[LibraryLover]

I promise I'm not feeling defensive about this. Even as I keep participating. lol  I know our family, and our attachments to each other. I feel good about us. So...throwing it out there that over the years there has been a tremendous amount of family bonding over music, non-travel town recreational sports, ballet etc. We spend time together this way. It's just not happening for us in church youth groups or whatnot.   Our interests are different. That's it.  

[SKL]

The other thing is that at church, other than in the actual church service (and sometimes even then), parents are separated from their kids.  How is that family time?  I do enjoy that one hour when my kids are forced to sit still next to me (we go to early church which does not have a "children's church" option).  But we don't have any heart-to-hearts at that time.

 

I view Sunday School as total "me time," because it's the only time of the week when I can, without guilt, sit and do nothing for my kids or my job.

[Dmmetler]

My daughter is on a dance team that is going to Worlds in five weeks. One girl only shows up to practice less than half of the time. It's infuriating to see kids who work so hard because they want to recall and get a good placement, and one person who is risking it all by not honoring her commitment. She is probably going to get kicked off the team after Worlds. It's just not fair to those who are comitted. Of course, everyone might have to miss a practice here and there. But more than half? No.

 

DD's cheer team had a ton of no-shows last season, and it really hurt the team. This season, the no-shows didn't come back. Of course, now we're hitting bad weather and the flu, which is STILL hurting attendance, but at least it's understandable!

[skimomma]

Our community is largely dominated by one specific religion.  As a result, ALL kids' activities, including through the public schools, have deemed Wednesday evenings and Sundays off limits.  As far as I can tell, this has been the case for decades.  While this particular religion happens to be the majority right now, our community is changing and people with different religions are moving in.  I do wonder if the "days off" will ever be challenged.  Especially through the schools. 

[HS Mom in NC]

On another church topic that I think relates less directly to this one, I'm completely gobsmacked by the number of regular church goers who spend all their free time around other believers.  Then they go on and on about witnessing to unbelieving people.  What unbelieving people?  Some of them are never around unbelievers because their homeschool group or private school is Christian, their activities during the week are at church with believers and on Sundays they're with believers. They socialize with church friends in their free time. 

I don't have a problem with developing deep relationships with people who share your beliefs.  I have a problem with doing it to the degree that there is little or room at all in your life for people who don't share your beliefs.  Many people do it for the sake of the children because "Bad company corrupts good character...." which to them means "Never let your kids around anyone who might do say or be something the Bible doesn't command." I think taking the view that any time spent away from church when church was an option can be part of this kind of mindset.

 

[hornblower]

I always feel SO lazy reading these threads.

We don't do competitive sport.

We don't do serious 'art'.

We don't go to church.

I don't know what we do but we're busy....so we must be doing something LOL....

[SKL]

I always feel SO lazy reading these threads.

 

We don't do competitive sport.

 

We don't do serious 'art'.

 

We don't go to church.

 

I don't know what we do but we're busy....so we must be doing something LOL....

 

I know ... I always feel more exhausted after an unstructured day.  When we have a full schedule, I don't have to think much about it.  Go here, go there.  At the end of the day my kids have done all kinds of great stuff while I followed them with my laptop, theoretically doing work, but sometimes just playing around on WTM.  :P  We connect in the transition times.  And at the end of the day, I might feel like Supermom.  :P

 

[clementine]

Ikr ?

 

Dd15 had the chance to do competitive gymnastics. I thought about it for about 10 seconds. I declined. Who wants to spend their lives running around to sports ? Not me.

 

I have a friend whose daughter competes in rhythmic gymnastics. I just think spending your weekend watching kids compete with ribbons is...not my idea of time well spent.

 

Nice. 

[SeaConquest]

I've never heard of this Wednesday night church thing. Granted, I'm a left coast, urban Jew, but still. Is this just in the Bible Belt?

 

I guess it goes without saying that, out here, teams/clubs/etc. don't take anyone's religious commitments into consideration when scheduling. You choose your priorities.

[Jyhwkmama]

I always feel SO lazy reading these threads.

 

We don't do competitive sport.

 

We don't do serious 'art'.

 

We don't go to church.

 

I don't know what we do but we're busy....so we must be doing something LOL....

 

This actually made me laugh out loud. Right there with you! 

[MysteryJen]

Everyone has different priorities. It is just that "holier than thou attitude", literally in this thread, that has some of us feeling defensive. I love sports, but I grew up doing ballet and music. Dance, theater and orchestra/band are not inherenly more valuable than soccer, hockey or other sports. Neanderthal competitive parents who cavalierly risk their child's health and spiritual development and pushy stage moms who live vicariously through their children versus true Christians who value family time. None of us can succeed being the best parents we can be if we view the world like that.

[TranquilMind]

Maybe this is unique to our area of the country...but we have kids and parents traveling 3 hours or more away for school related ball games and tournaments. And this isn't like once or twice...it's like several times in a season.  And, if they aren't traveling long distances, they are playing games 3-5 times a week and then practices on top of that...starting at 2nd and 3rd grade.

 

What is the HUGE push for SO many hours of sports related activities?  

 

And then on top of all of that...all summer long kids around here are going to one sport camp after another.  It seems like some kids spend more time on their sport(s) than anything else...including real time with their families, school or even just down time.  

 

My husband is a pastor and we used to have a weekly youth group time with our youth in our church...but now it is IMPOSSIBLE...sports rule and that is it.

 

I totally can see how kids can get sucked up into the whole idea...but it seems that the parents are as bad (if not worse) than the kids.  

 

Sure, I have my opinion about this whole thing.  One of my sons is very athletic and if he were in PS, he would totally want to be on every sports team available....and he would be sought after by the coaches.  But we would put our foot down with the high demands put on these kids.  The coaches around here are hired and fired based on their winning record.  Kids are in the starting line up based on their performance, their attendance of all practices....if you are just an average player, there is really very little use for you on any team.   It's almost like they were playing for college or something.  

 

there used to be a time when Sunday was (at the very least) looked at as a family day (however we also look at it as a day set aside for church) where now, they are playing games on Sunday...and  even if the game doesn't start until 1, if the bus has to leave by 9 or 10  to get there...so much for church and family time. 

 

Also, it seems like there are more and more days where our PS lets out early or doesn't even have school because of some game some where. 

 

Is it just me?  is it just here?  What am I missing?  Why is sports so important that it takes priority over nearly everything else??

 

And it's just sports...it's not music. It's not drama....it is ONLY sports.

 

So, what is up???  

I know.  It's crazy.  One of ours went all the way to the top level group in his sport for his age group, but it took up his whole life.  We traveled almost every weekend, sometimes several states away.  Lots of hotels.  He quit the following year.  He knew he was not going to be a professional player, but rather pursue academics, so why continue at that level? 

 

Now I do know someone who continued, but this kid likely will be a pro, so it made sense for him. 

[Mommy22alyns]

 

This is not my child, but yes, just like my child.

 

Try to say no. lol

This would so be Rebecca too. Not as bad, but she had 3 teeth pulled and looked at me like I was the crazy one when I told her she could miss gymnastics that day.

[Mommy22alyns]

I also want to add this. I firmly believe that God is the one who gave Rebecca her talent. So it also honors Him to let her use it.

[Mommy22alyns]

Now I'm curious what effect spending so much time on an activity during childhood has on a person.

 

I linked to a study several posts back about sports and creativity. But now I'm curious if anyone has any studies on the subject? The only ones I know about are the various advantages found for piano students, which isn't quite what we are talking about here.

 

I imagine that for a child to devote 20 + hours a week to a single sport or activity will have an effect vs. a child that does a variety of scheduled things, or no scheduled things. But I'm not sure what that would be.

Again, that would vary widely depending on the kid, the parents, etc. My kid adores spending that much time in the gym. She doesn't care that it's her only extracurricular. Another kid might want to dabble broadly. Parents might push one way or another. Everyone is different.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I always feel SO lazy reading these threads.

 

We don't do competitive sport.

 

We don't do serious 'art'.

 

We don't go to church.

 

I don't know what we do but we're busy....so we must be doing something LOL....

 

Thank you! This is us too. I wish my kids were passionate about sports! Or art! Or...anything!

 

I may need to start a spin-off thread about this.

[Jan in SC]

Has your church moved activities to help the kids? Why not have a Tuesday morning breakfast youth group? I see all sorts of scheduling options from churches, and I live in the Bible Belt.

 

It seems ridiculous to maintain your scheduling demands and then complain that others don't want to come. Adapt and help them. If your church is a community, respect the entire community, not just the leaders.

 

OP- you mention how your children are well rounded because they are not allowed to be involved in activities. I have to wonder if that is true. I have two children who enjoy performing, and a ball player. We travel all over for both. They been throughout our country and overseas. They had the opportunity to play with children they wouldn't have met otherwise. They have performed in places that most people never get to visit. They have grandparents, cousins, and friends cheer for them, and support them. We find time for academics, athletics, art activities, and church.

[MysteryJen]

I think 20 plus hours a week on any one thing can be compared. If there are advantages to kids who do that for piano or an instrument, why would it be different for those whose instrument is their body?