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8FillTheHeart

Have all of you seen this article? Horrifying.

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Wow - and  :banghead:  and  :angry:  and  :( .

 

That's a side of college I'm glad I never experienced and can't imagine being part of, esp as a supporter like her "friends."

 

If I had a daughter I think I just might make this required reading, esp due to this part:

 

"Before Jackie left for college, her parents – a Vietnam vet and retired military contractor, and a stay-at-home mom – had lectured her about avoiding the perils of the social scene, stressing the importance of her studies, since Jackie hoped to get into medical school. Jackie had a strained relationship with her father, in whose eyes she'd never felt good enough, and always responded by exceeding expectations – honor roll, swim team, first-chair violin – becoming the role model for her two younger brothers. Jackie had been looking forward to college as an escape – a place to, even, defy her parents' wishes and go to a frat party. "And I guess they were right," she says bitterly.

 

She was having an especially difficult time figuring out how to process that awful night, because her small social circle seemed so underwhelmed. For the first month of school, Jackie had latched onto a crew of lighthearted social strivers, and her pals were now impatient for Jackie to rejoin the merriment. "You're still upset about that?" Andy asked one Friday night when Jackie was crying. Cindy, a self-declared hookup queen, said she didn't see why Jackie was so bent out of shape. "Why didn't you have fun with it?" Cindy asked. "A bunch of hot Phi Psi guys?" One of Jackie's friends told her, unconcerned, "Andy said you had a bad experience at a frat, and you've been a baby ever since.""

 

 

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Wow.  Just ... wow.  

 

I was skimming the comment section also, which is even more disturbing.

 

Thanks for sharing, though, as it's important to confront this.

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It's tragic that right up to the end, the woman is blaming herself, saying it's because she chose to go to the party. :(

 

It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

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I couldn't finish the article. What kind of PEOPLE wouldn't take a woman who had just been gang raped to the hospital?! And the fraternity chants? Awful.

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One of the odd things I'm noticing as I check rape reports in the area around the campuses we are considering is that there are older men living in dorms now.  I find this really odd....a 30 something in a dorm with 17-19 year olds is not what I call acceptable.

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I couldn't finish the article. What kind of PEOPLE wouldn't take a woman who had just been gang raped to the hospital?! And the fraternity chants? Awful.

 

This struck me too.  Who would look at their bleeding, crying friend and think that they don't want to get her help, because it might hurt their chances to party with the kind of people who assaulted her.  What?

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I couldn't finish the article. What kind of PEOPLE wouldn't take a woman who had just been gang raped to the hospital?! And the fraternity chants? Awful.

  

This struck me too.  Who would look at their bleeding, crying friend and think that they don't want to get her help, because it might hurt their chances to party with the kind of people who assaulted her.  What?

That made me sick to my stomach. How could they stand on a street corner with her and worry about their social positions? What kind of shallow character do these kids have?

 

Like Creekland, part of me wants to share it with my 10th grade dd. But the article has so disturbed me that I am not going to bc I know it would disturb her even more. She is a gentle soul. 2 yrs from now, maybe. We have always warned our kids to never accept any drink from anyone and only drink drinks they themselves broke the seal on and have not set down anywhere. But I am not convinced that is enough.

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I couldn't read past the first paragraph. Too horrifying.

 

I have been talking to my daughter for years about drinking, drugs, college parties, etc. I can only hope some of what I have said has made an impression on her.

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Beyond horrifying. Rolling Stone's reporting is powerful. I hope the article gets widely read. Should be required reading.

 

You'd think that a serial killer getting his start while raping at college would be a wake-up call for colleges, but I'm not holding my breath.😡😡😡

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You know...I understand that there is a certain amount of....well, warnings we have to give to women. Ways to protect themselves. I get that...but what I'd like to see more of is the importance of raising our boys to be...not rapists?? To value a woman as a HUMAN BEING.

 

I mean, I want to hear what the mother's of these boys' have to say about the boys. If I found out my son did something like this...he'd better hope that the law gets to him before I do. That's for certain.

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Wholey **ap!

The university president needs to be indicted for failure to report a crime. The attorney general must take this case over. This is sickening.

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Disgusting. Makes me not want to send my kids off to college at all.

 

The Greek system at my large school (which could certainly give UVA a run for its money as the number 1 party school) was rather known for its partying, and I just don't have a great impression of it as a whole (although, tbh, I've only ever been to a frat house once, to pick up a paper from a classmate, during the day, accompanied by my boyfriend and his best friend, so I don't have personal experience with frat parties, but there seemed to be plenty of them happening). If the national leaders of huge Greek organizations feel that networking, etc., are hugely beneficial to students, they need to be clamping down on local chapters' activities that make it easier for this kind of thing to happen.

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Again I am perplexed at the attitude that colleges display toward underage drinking.  A young friend of ours attends a different Virginia university.  He was interested in joining a frat and went through part of rush (I think it was sophomore year).  But he was frustrated when he was told that he had to drink.  He objected that he was not 21, didn't want to break the law, and also didn't want the drink.  He was pressured more.  He was told that his being accepted was contingent on drinking.

 

He declined again and stopped the rush process.  But he also made a complaint with the dean and with the national leadership of the frat.  In both cases, he was commended for coming forward with the complaint.  The dean and the national chapter put restrictions on the frat.  The specific people involved were stripped of their leadership positions within the frat. 

 

I'm pleased with two things.  That our friend spoke out, even though it cost him the spot in the frat and could have cost him socially (though I'll note that in the end, there were several beneficial things that happened as a result). But also that instead of making this young student feel like a betrayer of an understood code at the university, both the dean and the national frat leadership took him seriously and sanctioned the people involved. 

 

 

I really do not understand the nod nod wink wink attitude that many college display.  On one hand, they are cracking down on speech that someone deems to be hurtful (even when it occurs in the context of an actual academic discussion or debate), while on the other hand they act as if breaking the law by drinking underage or supplying alcohol to underage students is no big deal.  I don't mean a quiet beer in the dorm room while you're working on your physics homework or a glass of wine while you're revising a paper.  I mean the go out to get drunk and lose control drinking.  I really don't understand the dichotomy.

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We have always warned our kids to never accept any drink from anyone and only drink drinks they themselves broke the seal on and have not set down anywhere. But I am not convinced that is enough.

It surely doesn't sound like it, from that article. It doesn't sound like she was necessarily slipped something in her drink, and it doesn't sound like she'd even had enough to drink to have it affect her judgment. It sounds like she was completely in control of her decision to go upstairs with the boy (can't call him a man, because men don't treat women like that), but it turned out to be a bad decision. How many college freshmen could fend off so many thugs? I expect my DD will have a black belt in martial arts by the time she goes to college, and I still wouldn't expect that she could fend off so many thugs at once.

 

I am all for teaching our sons not to rape people. But I will also be teaching my children to be very careful about parties and about going off with anyone by themselves. Just sickening.

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It surely doesn't sound like it, from that article. It doesn't sound like she was necessarily slipped something in her drink, and it doesn't sound like she'd even had enough to drink to have it affect her judgment. It sounds like she was completely in control of her decision to go upstairs with the boy (can't call him a man, because men don't treat women like that), but it turned out to be a bad decision. How many college freshmen could fend off so many thugs? I expect my DD will have a black belt in martial arts by the time she goes to college, and I still wouldn't expect that she could fend off so many thugs at once.

 

I am all for teaching our sons not to rape people. But I will also be teaching my children to be very careful about parties and about going off with anyone by themselves. Just sickening.

 

Yes, I agree.  The boys were wrong, wrong, wrong.  That is primary.  Secondary is the choice she made to go alone upstairs, although she would have never been raped if the boys hadn't been such beasts.

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 If I found out my son did something like this...he'd better hope that the law gets to him before I do. That's for certain.

 

Ditto!

 

Disgusting. Makes me not want to send my kids off to college at all.

 

FWIW, my guys are not like that.  There are many at college who are not like that and who make the college experience fun and worthwhile.  A big part is choosing who to associate with considering that there is that other culture out there.  (Ideally that culture would disappear, but since we live in the real world, educating our gals - and guys - is the best we can do.)

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FWIW, my guys are not like that. There are many at college who are not like that and who make the college experience fun and worthwhile. A big part is choosing who to associate with considering that there is that other culture out there. (Ideally that culture would disappear, but since we live in the real world, educating our gals - and guys - is the best we can do.)

My sons aren't either. My sons would be the kind calling the police and rescuing the girls. I am having a hard time fathoming anyone wanting to be part of that culture, let alone putting that culture above a friend who had just been so brutally violated.

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I really do not understand the nod nod wink wink attitude that many college display.  On one hand, they are cracking down on speech that someone deems to be hurtful (even when it occurs in the context of an actual academic discussion or debate), while on the other hand they act as if breaking the law by drinking underage or supplying alcohol to underage students is no big deal.  I don't mean a quiet beer in the dorm room while you're working on your physics homework or a glass of wine while you're revising a paper.  I mean the go out to get drunk and lose control drinking.  I really don't understand the dichotomy.

 

I think many colleges focus on covering their assets (ahem), and minimizing legal liability, rather than doing the right thing.  I know of several that enforce dry campuses very strictly, but know very well that underage drinking happens all the time at frat parties and other off campus events.  They turn a blind eye as long as the legal liability falls elsewhere.

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I agree with others that one of the many horrors for me in this story is the "friends" she called on to help her were so worried about their own status and not her physical and mental state.  I am sickened to think that potential damage to social status trumped getting her to a hospital IMMEDIATELY.  They were her FRIENDS!  I cannot imagine doing that to a friend.  Ever.  For any reason.  She needed immediate medical attention.  Even as an idiot college student with limited life experience I would not have been worrying about my own social status over the physical and mental well being of a friend who has just experienced tremendous trauma.  

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It took me 12 years before I could tell anyone about my rape.  I completely understand her not being ready to press charges.  I widh I could give her hug.

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It took me 12 years before I could tell anyone about my rape.  I completely understand her not being ready to press charges.  I widh I could give her hug.

:grouphug:  Amy

 

And I wish I could give her a hug, too.  Breaks my heart.

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As an aside to the general conversation...have you seen the preview for Pitch Perfect 2?

 

One of the main characters (the busxom blond with the accent) is propositioned and says "No."  Big grin and a wink.  The guy says "What does that mean?"  And she responds with "100% no."  Big grin and a wink.

 

I am flabbergasted that this is seen as humorous. 

 

It's the last 15 seconds of the trailor and the final image of the movie to be left on the minds of potential viewers.

 

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How to teach sons? The lessons start from infancy, about moral imperatives, higher authority, and the worth of every human life. This is not a discussion to begin with high school seniors. Begin it with toddlers.

 

But parents, you can't get these lessons across while also pounding in the mantras about top colleges and best careers.

 

If you aren't willing for your sons to be honest day laborers or vocational students or whatever they turn out to be, in other words if PARENTS can't prioritize correctly, the money and power messages are the main messages the boys will hear! They'll head into college life and adulthood thinking they can live like the devil as long as they keep checking off those boxes. Best college? Check. Good grades? Check. Degree? Check. Loss of my own soul and destruction of others? What?

 

It has to come from the heart. We have to be able to authentically say, "I'd rather you never attend college a day in your life if going there means you turn into a feral animal with all the others."

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My son is a gentle soul. He recently told me that he was extremely bewildered and sad the first couple weeks of school, until he found a group of kids like him. I may have told this before, but on one of his very first days there, he sat at a cafeteria table and listened to a few girls seriously discuss whether one of them had been date raped the previous night. He was horrified when a few minutes later they all were laughing about the next party they could find to get drunk.

ETA-- the above isn't meant as a way of blaming any girls who are raped or abused, just at the absurdity of what a college social life is deemed "normal" by so many kids.

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My son is a gentle soul. He recently told me that he was extremely bewildered and sad the first couple weeks of school, until he found a group of kids like him. I may have told this before, but on one of his very first days there, he sat at a cafeteria table and listened to a few girls seriously discuss whether one of them had been date raped the previous night. He was horrified when a few minutes later they all were laughing about the next party they could find to get drunk.

 

:(

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One of our family friends is on leave from her university due to PSD suffered after a brutal rape.  Horrible.

 

Some colleges are offering "No means no" campaigns to incoming students.  I could not read the entire article but I fear that part of what went on in that particular situation was related to Greek culture.  It may be one thing for colleges/universities to change their cultures; for fraternities, another when one group of brothers feels that they perpetuated certain indignities, hence others should as well.

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I remember having to have a parent, principal, school police officer conference over a group of boys who openly declared that a girl had to have sex with them if they had gone out on three dates.  If she didn't, it was their right to have sex with her because she was obviously a tease.  I waited quite a bit for another of the male students to say something to the affect of "um...no...that is rape." but they all agreed.  It was the females sitting next to them that were completely up in arms. 

 

Sadly, both my principal and the parents thought I was over-reacting by calling a conference.  "Boys will be Boys" is what both mother and father referenced.

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I remember having to have a parent, principal, school police officer conference over a group of boys who openly declared that a girl had to have sex with them if they had gone out on three dates. If she didn't, it was their right to have sex with her because she was obviously a tease. I waited quite a bit for another of the male students to say something to the affect of "um...no...that is rape." but they all agreed. It was the females sitting next to them that were completely up in arms.

 

Sadly, both my principal and the parents thought I was over-reacting by calling a conference. "Boys will be Boys" is what both mother and father referenced.

That's appalling. And that had better not ever be my boys.

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How to teach sons? The lessons start from infancy, about moral imperatives, higher authority, and the worth of every human life. This is not a discussion to begin with high school seniors. Begin it with toddlers.

That's it--teaching from day 1. I've been having this sort of conversation with my sons for years. What makes it so easy in my home is that my husband views everyone as equal. It's why I married him. He doesn't seem to even see age, sex, race, what have you. My sons have picked up on that just by watching and also by the many conversations we've had about treating everyone equally. It comes up a lot in our studies of history.

 

Having sat in high school (I didn't go to college until I was in my 30s and then only a few classes) at the same table with boys who were discussing how cool it would be to rape women with broken bottles I am so crazy cynical about schools. The children in my high school were morally deficient and I blame the whole ridiculous structure of schools for it. I believe it bleeds over into college and on to adulthood. There's something about the way we do school that causes people to become hardened. I guess a Lord of the Flies thing, being that there aren't enough adults to curtail the horrid behavior of the kids. I certainly never felt the slightest bit protected by any adult in my schools.

 

Everything in school when I was a kid was a joke. The Challenger blew up on tv in front of us--immediate jokes about it. Anything good was made fun of. Anything horrible was given a "meh" or a joke. Even back in 4th grade we watched a sad movie where the boy's pet cat died in the end. A few kids got teary-eyed (I was one of them) and were immediately laughed at by the other kids. In all of the above examples and the many more I have, an adult never once stepped up and did a single thing about it. Of course, if they did, the kids would have left the classroom and then made jokes about the teacher.

 

I have never understood the level of cruelty in children which leads to cruelty as adults. It starts very young.

 

This article is horrifying. The adults on campus who are doing nothing to stop this are reprehensible.

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Online college is looking pretty good about now. I think B & Ms are overrated for our purposes. They are no longer the "only way" to do college as more options enter the marketplace.

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My heart grieves for these young women. So much taken from them. And I stand amazed and the depths of evil shown by these young men.

 

eta: I'm sickened where the offender refers to Jackie, the victim as an "it" during the attack.

Total dehumanization. The victim is an object.

 

eta: We are raising our boys to kick the living snot out of the offenders and ask questions later.

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I read the link this morning and just a few minutes ago it clicked.  Remember the kid that didn't want to do it?  But he had to in order to join the frat.  That means that each and every one of those #$%$#%&^ in that frat house did that to someone!   

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I couldn't finish the article. What kind of PEOPLE wouldn't take a woman who had just been gang raped to the hospital?! And the fraternity chants? Awful.

I think that is what bothers me most. The fact that they didn't act on her behalf and instead questioned what happened. It doesn't matter how it happened or who did it - when someone has been injured, you get them care first and think it through later.

 

So very sad, and hopefully the justice system will deal with it thoroughly, severely, and with longstanding.

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This article has disturbed me so much. I can't even really express how much. One of the things I told my dh was that UVA is supposed to be one of the top schools in this country. These students will end up our future drs, lawyers, professors, leaders. That is a very scary thought.

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Eight, thank you for linking the article, even though it was a difficult read. Sadly, you will find similar stories in the newspapers published by the likes of Stanford, Yale, and Dartmouth. Even though the stories appear on the actual campuses, they seem to make little difference to the administrations of the offending colleges.

 

One of the items that stood out to me in this article was the number of false accusations for rape: 8%.

 

Even on this board, when we have discussed rape on campuses, there has been an equal amount of concern for guys wrongly accused as there has been for the victims.  I am the mother of two sons and this still enrages me because it is part of the thought process that holds back the effective prosecution of rape perpetrators. We are far more wrapped up in potentially messing up the future of one young man, than we are in protecting real victims from real assaults.

 

Let's think about it:  100 rapes reported, 92 real women traumatized for life, 8 men falsely accused.  I am not minimizing the damage done by a false accusation, but I think the continual emphasis on worrying about a false accusation vs. a real crime is really skewed. That emphasis leads to questions like the "are you sure it's not just regrettable sex?"

 

The other really disturbing note was the study done that basically said many of these assaults couldn't be chalked up to the "drunken misunderstandings" that we've talked about here on the board, but that many of the assailants were responsible for multiple assaults. These are planned and carried out, not just happenstance.

 

In a first year class of say 200 students, it's not just the fact that 50 of those students are or will be rape victims, it's that even if you attribute those rapes at two per rapist, that in that one classroom, it's a good bet that 25 of those students have raped someone.

 

That's a whole lot of entitled feeling young men and that is where we truly need to focus our attention.

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This article has disturbed me so much. I can't even really express how much. One of the things I told my dh was that UVA is supposed to be one of the top schools in this country. These students will end up our future drs, lawyers, professors, leaders. That is a very scary thought.

Indeed. In Virginia, a significant number of students admitted also have acceptance to Ivy League. In state tuition wins out. The alumni network is quite strong so it's not like choosing UVA over Harvard or Yale would actually have detrimental longterm consequences.

 

UVA has been known as a party school forever. That is very much ingrained in tradition. My grandparents refused to filled out paper work for my dad to accept a full scholarship there because it was a party school in the fifties. My dad was a minor at the time, so it meant he could not go.

 

When dd and I took a tour I did notice PSA posters in multiple locations about recognizing alcohol poisoning and "your duty" to help. While I think this is good. At same time I think it's a little disturbing that regular drinking binges is normal.

 

I went to the other public ivy in Virginia. UVA was Making those annual lists of number one party school then. Having gone to law school with several UVA grads made me question whether there were any ethics at UVA, but I don't think law students are a good example--there was a terrible lack of ethics among a portion of my law school class, so that may be something law school attracts in general.

 

The school has history. It will take years and years to break down the accepted behavior.

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This article has disturbed me so much. I can't even really express how much. One of the things I told my dh was that UVA is supposed to be one of the top schools in this country. These students will end up our future drs, lawyers, professors, leaders. That is a very scary thought.

 

Same here. A pall has fallen over me because of this and some other news events (including in my area) and I'm having a really hard time shaking it. It's a dark feeling, that an entire generation appears to be lost and those who are safe and good are outside the norm.

 

 

I just saw on Twitter reports that UVA has suspended all frat activities.

 

I hope UVA and all the rest will begin to act and not merely to react when under the microscope. I hope this suspension will cause someone, anyone, to stop and think about why.

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This article reminded me of my college days, something I had forgotten about:

 

I had heard that to join one particular frat on our campus, the pledges had to "do it with" a sheep. ("Do it with" wasn't the word used.) I was completely appalled at the thought, and for the next few days (weeks?), every time I saw one of those frat members, my skin crawled.

 

Well, one night the frat was having an "invitation only" party with one of the sororities. Then I heard that at this yearly party, the sorority girls came dressed as sheep. The guys, supposedly, were supposed to pick one of the girls to ... ahem.... with her that night, at the party.

 

I was still equally disgusted, but I suppose you could make the argument that it was consensual. Blech.

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This article reminded me of my college days, something I had forgotten about:

 

I had heard that to join one particular frat on our campus, the pledges had to "do it with" a sheep. ("Do it with" wasn't the word used.) I was completely appalled at the thought, and for the next few days (weeks?), every time I saw one of those frat members, my skin crawled.

 

Well, one night the frat was having an "invitation only" party with one of the sororities. Then I heard that at this yearly party, the sorority girls came dressed as sheep. The guys, supposedly, were supposed to pick one of the girls to ... ahem.... with her that night, at the party.

 

I was still equally disgusted, but I suppose you could make the argument that it was consensual. Blech.

Blech. Just blech. I remember hearing about frats at our university that had girls known as "little sisters," whose jobs were to "help" the frat brothers, and it was commonly known that. . . ahem. . . was part of the deal. Yuck.

 

That article had a similar one linked to it. It had less about frat boys and women and more about frat boys and hazing. I wish I hadn't read it. I knew heavy drinking and stupid tricks were part of pledging, but the stuff mentioned in the article was just completely depraved and foul.

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Blech. Just blech. I remember hearing about frats at our university that had girls known as "little sisters," whose jobs were to "help" the frat brothers, and it was commonly known that. . . ahem. . . was part of the deal. Yuck.

 

That article had a similar one linked to it. It had less about frat boys and women and more about frat boys and hazing. I wish I hadn't read it. I knew heavy drinking and stupid tricks were part of pledging, but the stuff mentioned in the article was just completely depraved and foul.

 

There's a reason my guys have never been interested in frats.

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I couldn't finish the article. What kind of PEOPLE wouldn't take a woman who had just been gang raped to the hospital?! And the fraternity chants? Awful.

I couldn't even read it.  There is something really wrong in the empathy deficit of many young people today. 

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Simple first step ALL universities should take: make it a policy that all sexual assault reports must be referred to the police.

I support this idea...yet I wonder if it would discourage reporting. Some women are NOT ready to go to the police, for any number of reasons. The article touches on this and it's common knowledge that the vast majority of rapes go unreported. What I wonder is *why* they are unreported. Certainly there must be many reasons, but I wonder if fear of social repercussions and fear of having to confront one's attacker in court or elsewhere are biggies. HOW, as a culture, do we confront this? Are any of you familiar with programs that teach college students how to intervene in "impending rape" situations? I've heard of such a program but I cannot remember the name of it or any details. I would love to find it and use it to explicitly teach my boys these skills.

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 Are any of you familiar with programs that teach college students how to intervene in "impending rape" situations? I've heard of such a program but I cannot remember the name of it or any details. I would love to find it and use it to explicitly teach my boys these skills.

 

I'l try to remember to ask middle son when I see him.  I would hope RAs would get some sort of info on it.

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