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8FillTheHeart

Have all of you seen this article? Horrifying.

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I support this idea...yet I wonder if it would discourage reporting. Some women are NOT ready to go to the police, for any number of reasons.

 

Good point... but I guess I was meaning more for the cases that people do report to the university. I guess I'd sort of make it mandated that if the university becomes aware of an assault, they have to pass info on to the police rather than trying to deal with it internally. This idea that somehow universities are their own little domains is something that applies to academic misconduct & even harassment, but shouldn't apply to assault, kwim?

 

On the topic of victims accessing services more generally, I was reading an article earlier this week about a Canadian hospital which has a special sex assault suite. No waits, it's a private, homey environment with nurses & counselors. The first 120h is critical for evidence collection but once it's collected, it can sit for days, months or years.

 

The clients can also choose to file a report right away & in that case, plain clothes police attend there (rooms are equipped with recording equipment) and take the statements there so they don't have to go to the police station.

 

It's an innovative model. Would be nice to see all hospitals near major college & universities develop similar programs.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/what-happens-when-you-go-to-the-hospital-after-a-sexual-assault-1.2843872

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I think that was WVU.

 

No, UVA president suspended all Fraternity activities until Jan 9. I actually think that's meaningless based on the calendar.

--If there are classes this week the campus will completely clear out on Tuesday

--When student return there will be just 3 weeks left for final projects, papers and exams, even at UVA not the best time to party

--classes won't be in session until after Jan 9

 

So, such a suspension does not really affect fraternity activities. However, the president may be buying time to evaluate the investigation.

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Ah, I did just see this on CNN after I posted.  I was confused because UWV had suspended frats a few days ago and I thought it was that school that the PP was referencing.

 

I agree this is not really meaningful. 

 

 


No, UVA president suspended all Fraternity activities until Jan 9. I actually think that's meaningless based on the calendar.

--If there are classes this week the campus will completely clear out on Tuesday

--When student return there will be just 3 weeks left for final projects, papers and exams, even at UVA not the best time to party

--classes won't be in session until after Jan 9

 

So, such a suspension does not really affect fraternity activities. However, the president may be buying time to evaluate the investigation.

 

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Eight, thank you for linking the article, even though it was a difficult read. Sadly, you will find similar stories in the newspapers published by the likes of Stanford, Yale, and Dartmouth. Even though the stories appear on the actual campuses, they seem to make little difference to the administrations of the offending colleges.

 

One of the items that stood out to me in this article was the number of false accusations for rape: 8%.

 

Even on this board, when we have discussed rape on campuses, there has been an equal amount of concern for guys wrongly accused as there has been for the victims. I am the mother of two sons and this still enrages me because it is part of the thought process that holds back the effective prosecution of rape perpetrators. We are far more wrapped up in potentially messing up the future of one young man, than we are in protecting real victims from real assaults.

 

Let's think about it: 100 rapes reported, 92 real women traumatized for life, 8 men falsely accused. I am not minimizing the damage done by a false accusation, but I think the continual emphasis on worrying about a false accusation vs. a real crime is really skewed. That emphasis leads to questions like the "are you sure it's not just regrettable sex?"

 

The other really disturbing note was the study done that basically said many of these assaults couldn't be chalked up to the "drunken misunderstandings" that we've talked about here on the board, but that many of the assailants were responsible for multiple assaults. These are planned and carried out, not just happenstance.

 

In a first year class of say 200 students, it's not just the fact that 50 of those students are or will be rape victims, it's that even if you attribute those rapes at two per rapist, that in that one classroom, it's a good bet that 25 of those students have raped someone.

 

That's a whole lot of entitled feeling young men and that is where we truly need to focus our attention.

Part of the problem is the extreme way we treat rapists when we do bother to convict. The young men who perpetrate this stuff by and large can learn better. They can be rehabilitated. But that's often not how it's handled. Instead, in addition to whatever punishment, we register them as sex offenders, with the same permanent stamp of shame as a pedophile whom we may legitimately be concerned is incapable of rehabilitation.

 

Fears of saddling young men with these consequences, disproportionate to the crime when they are guilty (never mind that 8% of false accusations), leads to reluctance to prosecute, which leads to more men getting away with it.

 

The single biggest actual influence the criminal justice system has on crime deterrence is if the likelihood of getting caught is perceived as high.

 

I'd love to see jurisdictions with universities set up diversion programs. Arrest the young men perpetrating these crimes, then give them a chance to enter a diversion program to make the charges go away. To succeed in diversion they must go through appropriate behavioral therapy, pay restitution money into a victims' fund, serve community service hours, and graduate on time. To be allowed to stay in school they should have to secure housing in a dedicated facility with a curfew.

 

A program like that would remove the disincentive to prosecute, rehabilitate those future professionals, and help pay for counseling and treatment for victims of sexual violence on campus. It would increase the visibility of consequences for and chances of getting caught and improve prosecution.

 

I'd also like to see a straight talk sex ed program in high schools instead of the abstinence nonsense taught now in a lot of the U.S.

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I support this idea...yet I wonder if it would discourage reporting. Some women are NOT ready to go to the police, for any number of reasons. The article touches on this and it's common knowledge that the vast majority of rapes go unreported. What I wonder is *why* they are unreported. Certainly there must be many reasons, but I wonder if fear of social repercussions and fear of having to confront one's attacker in court or elsewhere are biggies. HOW, as a culture, do we confront this?

The Canadian hospital plan seems wonderful, but sadly I think it's rarely like that.

 

I'm trying to think this through. You are just so fragile after an attack, you can't take even the tiniest extra thing. I would think that most teen's previous experiences with police are unpleasant, and tryng to imagine that unpleasant experience on top of an assault, just blows a fuse.

 

I've never been in trouble with the law, just had to report crimes or have other mundane interactions, but, at best, the police have treated me as a nuisance, at worst, I felt verbally assaulted for reporting a crime. I know they have to get the facts, but they have a special way of questioning that makes you feel that it's all your fault even if you are just the victim of theft.

 

I wonder if we change the vocabulary to "report rapes to a hospital" instead of "to the police" if it would make a difference. I might have gone to a hospital back then, but I would have shut down at the thought of the police. It's hard to imagine what woukd have made a difference.

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The Canadian hospital plan seems wonderful, but sadly I think it's rarely like that.

 

I'm trying to think this through. You are just so fragile after an attack, you can't take even the tiniest extra thing. I would think that most teen's previous experiences with police are unpleasant, and tryng to imagine that unpleasant experience on top of an assault, just blows a fuse.

 

I've never been in trouble with the law, just had to report crimes or have other mundane interactions, but, at best, the police have treated me as a nuisance, at worst, I felt verbally assaulted for reporting a crime. I know they have to get the facts, but they have a special way of questioning that makes you feel that it's all your fault even if you are just the victim of theft.

 

I wonder if we change the vocabulary to "report rapes to a hospital" instead of "to the police" if it would make a difference. I might have gone to a hospital back then, but I would have shut down at the thought of the police. It's hard to imagine what woukd have made a difference.

A medical reporting model makes a lot of sense. There is no reason from a legal evidence standpoint why a victim's statement must be taken by police. A properly trained social worker could do it, and then report to police.

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The medical report model sounds very interesting to me.  My cousin was attacked and robbed years ago.  She is small and was injured during the attack.  She was bleeding and badly frightened.  Some idiot told her she had to tell the police what happened before she could get medical attention so she waited for the police.  When the police got there they were very aggressive in their questioning and seemed to almost be blaming her for the robbery.  She was frightened and disoriented and felt very intimidated.  And really hurt and confused as to why they seemed to be implying it was her fault since all she was doing was walking from a store to her car in broad daylight.  She WAS dressed in a really nice pant suit, and they thought that had attracted the thief. After that incident she has been very hesitant to deal with the police.  I could easily see her not calling at all if she were raped.

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I'm trying to think this through. You are just so fragile after an attack, you can't take even the tiniest extra thing. I would think that most teen's previous experiences with police are unpleasant, and tryng to imagine that unpleasant experience on top of an assault, just blows a fuse.

 

 

The high schoolers I deal with are reluctant to tell anyone in authority anything with rare exceptions for teachers they tend to feel more "in" with.  I listen when they talk among each other and sometimes come up with things that need to be reported.  It can be tough to convince them of this even when they know it's true.  It's a little easier for them when I tell them I'm a mandatory reporter so need to tell someone. At that point, most are relieved and will willingly talk with both me (giving me more details) and the guy I put them in contact with (a man working with "at risk" students and others - this guy is worth his weight in gold to be honest).

 

I've never yet seen a friend who tells them they ought to report anything beyond maybe theft.  Friends listen and try to offer assistance themselves with suggestions, etc, but going to an adult who might be able to help is just not in their mindset, and even if it were, there's that fear factor they have making it practically impossible to get started even if they know what should be done.

 

I doubt that changes much in college.  I suspect the best we could do in college is to try to be sure RAs are educated and encourage students to go to them - they are peers more than anyone else in authority and could provide both encouragement plus that little extra they need to get the ball moving even if they have to do it themselves.  Note, I never simply tell the students to go see the guy who works with them.  I actually DO the contacting and see that it happens.  A suggestion alone isn't enough even though I could just report things separately.  I don't go that route.  I report with them.

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A medical reporting model makes a lot of sense. There is no reason from a legal evidence standpoint why a victim's statement must be taken by police. A properly trained social worker could do it, and then report to police.

 

This is a wonderful idea. It would help a lot

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Here, the college bathrooms have stickers on the doors with the 24h women's crisis line phone numbers. Volunteers are available to anonymously discuss options & will also drive out & accompany the person to the hospital & hold their hand & just be there.

I wonder - do most US colleges have active women's groups/resource centers?  The 2 universities & 1 college that I'm familiar with all have them & work to promote safe spaces as well collaborating with the WAVAW & rape relief groups.  Men are encouraged to be involved in these groups as well.

Not that we don't have issues here - we do - but it seems not quite the same scale... Could be also because we don't have much greek life & a large contingent of the student body lives off campus. At UBC, only about 1/5 students lives in on campus residence.

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Simple first step ALL universities should take: make it a policy that all sexual assault reports must be referred to the police.

 

I have to say that I really like the approach the military takes.  There are two types of reports.  The victim make the choice.  Restricted reporting gets all the healthcare and counseling, but privacy is maintained and the command and law enforcement are not notified.  An unrestricted report also has all of the healthcare and counseling, but also refers the incident to the command and to appropriate law enforcement.  A restricted report can be moved to an unrestricted report at any time.

 

What I dislike is the influence of the colleges on these decisions.  Yes, there needs to be an explanation of the process and difference between getting counseling and care vs pursuing a criminal case.  (For example, the victim's identity may become known and she may have to face the accused in court and/or be questioned by lawyers for the defense.)  Accused do have rights.  And in my mind, those rights are not held in abeyance when the accusation is heinous.  If that is the case, then we've gone over to a situation where the accusation alone is enough to condemn.  This is the stuff of lynch mobs.

 

What I think is wholly inappropriate is the college determining if a crime was committed.  These hearings are typically done by people with no legal training and without maintaining constitutional protections afforded to the accused.  But even more troubling in my mind is the fact that the college has a stake in the outcome.  They may put their thumb on the scales because they want everyone accused of such crimes to be tossed out of the university or they may stand in the way of proper proceedings because they want to keep the numbers of cases low.  In either event, there is a conflict of interest.

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This article here sheds some light on the constraints universities have in dealing with these situations.  I had no idea about any of this--I thought they could just expel the whole lot of troublemakers and be done, but evidently it is not so simple.  The article was written back in 2013, and I am most certainly not a lawyer, just as a caveat.  Here is one small quote:

 

When caught between demands of due process and Title IX, schools like U.Va. are forced to make procedural and disciplinary decisions that they hope will stand on appeal. For example, the Sexual Misconduct Board that adjudicates trials, made up of students and faculty, has to exclude peer sexual assault educators because an appeal is easily won on grounds of juridical bias. The disciplinary decision to expel, moreover, has to be approached with great caution, because given the ease of appeal on due process grounds and the low (albeit mandated) standard of proof, there is a high likelihood that an expelled rapist will appeal, win that appeal, and be right back on Grounds with no chance at retrial (thanks to double jeopardy). Our administration and our adjudication system aren’t trying to dismiss sexual assault; they’re trying to adjudicate it within the tight binds of a larger legal tension.

 

 

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This article here sheds some light on the constraints universities have in dealing with these situations.  I had no idea about any of this--I thought they could just expel the whole lot of troublemakers and be done, but evidently it is not so simple.  The article was written back in 2013, and I am most certainly not a lawyer, just as a caveat.  Here is one small quote:

 

but why are they dealing with it at all? I mean, if a student murders another student on campus, it's not within university jurisdiction.  I think sexual assault should be treated like the crime it is.

 

I don't want them expelled for sexual assault. I want them charged, & brought to trial like everyone else would be.

 

(Whereas sexual harassment  is within the realm of workplace/academic discipline. There are things which people do in the workplace & university which are not criminal, but still might result in sanctions such as mandatory counseling, reassignment or termination. )

 

I've been mulling the 'diversion' process suggested above & yeah, no.

Charge them. It's a crime. You can get a criminal record & be ineligible to travel abroad because of a DUI but we're going to give people a pass for sexual assault? Nope.

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but why are they dealing with it at all? I mean, if a student murders another student on campus, it's not within university jurisdiction.  I think sexual assault should be treated like the crime it is.

 

I don't want them expelled for sexual assault. I want them charged, & brought to trial like everyone else would be.

 

(Whereas sexual harassment  is within the realm of workplace/academic discipline. There are things which people do in the workplace & university which are not criminal, but still might result in sanctions such as mandatory counseling, reassignment or termination. )

 

I've been mulling the 'diversion' process suggested above & yeah, no.

Charge them. It's a crime. You can get a criminal record & be ineligible to travel abroad because of a DUI but we're going to give people a pass for sexual assault? Nope.

Yes, that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well--and I even thought of the murder example too!

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Update I saw this morning: http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/22/us/university-of-virginia-sexual-assault-allegations/index.html

 

From the first paragraph:  "The University of Virginia is suspending all fraternities and associated parties until January 9 following a Rolling Stone magazine article that described a student's account of being gang raped and her frustration at trying to bring her alleged attackers to accountability."

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but why are they dealing with it at all? I mean, if a student murders another student on campus, it's not within university jurisdiction. I think sexual assault should be treated like the crime it is.

 

I don't want them expelled for sexual assault. I want them charged, & brought to trial like everyone else would be.

 

(Whereas sexual harassment is within the realm of workplace/academic discipline. There are things which people do in the workplace & university which are not criminal, but still might result in sanctions such as mandatory counseling, reassignment or termination. )

 

I've been mulling the 'diversion' process suggested above & yeah, no.

Charge them. It's a crime. You can get a criminal record & be ineligible to travel abroad because of a DUI but we're going to give people a pass for sexual assault? Nope.

The way a diversion program works is, you are charged. You don't contest the charge. If you complete the program, it goes away. If you don't, you face the standard criminal sentencing process.

 

There are DUI, drug, and domestic violence diversion programs in many areas. The goal is rehabilitation. Which is a lot better than the present system of victim blaming and so many perpetrators learning no lesson but that they can get away with it.

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The way a diversion program works is, you are charged. You don't contest the charge. If you complete the program, it goes away. If you don't, you face the standard criminal sentencing process.

 

There are DUI, drug, and domestic violence diversion programs in many areas. The goal is rehabilitation. Which is a lot better than the present system of victim blaming and so many perpetrators learning no lesson but that they can get away with it.

 

Why wait so late?

 

These fraternities can come up with procedures to ensure the safety of party attendees. They can also change their initiation procedures to include education on rape and consent, and to not include rape as part of the inititation. 

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Chiming in late to the thread, but I would like to thank 8 for bringing this story to my attention. I am still trying to process that such a warped mindset can become a college campus subculture. It is sickening.

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Why wait so late?

 

These fraternities can come up with procedures to ensure the safety of party attendees. They can also change their initiation procedures to include education on rape and consent, and to not include rape as part of the inititation.

Oh, I totally agree. Education on these issues should be part of the culture. In high school, in freshman orientation, periodically on order for a frat/sorority to keep its campus affiliation, etc.

 

And schools should NOT be the arbiters of whether a crime is reported.

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The way a diversion program works is, you are charged. You don't contest the charge. If you complete the program, it goes away. If you don't, you face the standard criminal sentencing process.

 

There are DUI, drug, and domestic violence diversion programs in many areas. The goal is rehabilitation. Which is a lot better than the present system of victim blaming and so many perpetrators learning no lesson but that they can get away with it.

 

Interesting. We do not have this type of diversion for serious offenses except for young offenders & the parallel restorative justice system which First Nations offenders can access.

 

Diversion here is for things like shoplifting, transit fare evasion, minor property damage/graffitti, possession of personal use pot etc.  I cannot imagine DUI and assault being diverted.

 

 

WRT to the US programs, cynical old me wonders how many privileged white men are getting this diversion option v. disadvantaged racial minorities. This seems like a rich party boy get out of jail option because they're rich! they're from a good family! they're smart! they've been admitted to an elite college! they have a wonderful career ahead of them! 

 

I'm all for rehabilitative models of justice btw. & certainly for prevention. Perhaps the first term on campus, every student must attend a mandatory course on sexual violence, healthy relationships, communication, alcohol and drug abuse.  Make it mandatory, make it hard. If you don't pass, you're on academic probation.

 

BTW, Vancouver had a blitz of putting up posters in bars & restaurants as part of the Don't Be That Guy campaign. http://www.theviolencestopshere.ca/dbtg.php

They reported a 10% decrease in sexual assaults they year they launched it.

 

Whistler - which has a much higher sexual assault rate -  was supposed to get on board this season but now they're balking because some business/restuarant/bar owners are worried about making men feel uncomfortable. Whoa, right? 

 

 

 

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As an aside to the general conversation...have you seen the preview for Pitch Perfect 2?

 

One of the main characters (the busxom blond with the accent) is propositioned and says "No." Big grin and a wink. The guy says "What does that mean?" And she responds with "100% no." Big grin and a wink.

 

I am flabbergasted that this is seen as humorous.

 

It's the last 15 seconds of the trailor and the final image of the movie to be left on the minds of potential viewers.

I saw this trailer yesterday before Mockingjay. Someone in the audience asked what the H was that?! and it was a man. 

 

The same actress was in a trailer of the new Night at the Museum movie and at the end she said, "Have you never seen a gorgeous woman before who could be a mother if she didn't love pizza so much?" referring to her weight. :thumbdown:

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^I just read that article. The whole thing in the original article about the girls thinking how great she was *really* bothered me.

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YES, and it really makes me angry.  What is wrong with people?  Where have we so failed this generation that significant numbers lack empathy and are psychopaths, or at least sociopaths.  Very sad. 

 

Not to mention the disturbing hypocrisy involved where cheaters are given the boot, but rapists are tolerated if everyone just keeps his/her mouth shut to maintain the University's standing. 

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Wow.   :banghead:

 

"And even if they do get caught, well, it doesn't sound like they need to worry much about that either."

 

Such a true summary.

 

I wonder how many of the victims left - not expelled, of course - just left.

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Dd just saw the news report. I haven't said anything to her and she's been heavily focused on school and ballet. We visited UVA in September a week before Hannah Graham disappeared. Dd is no completely sure what she wants to study, but one thing she is interested in is not offered at many schools and UVA has it. I expected shed express something during the weeks of hearing about Hannah Graham, but she kept that to herself. Today she watched a 60 second blurb and said "I'm not going to UVA."

 

We've got until next fall to figure out where the applications are going.

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Ah, I did just see this on CNN after I posted. I was confused because UWV had suspended frats a few days ago and I thought it was that school that the PP was referencing.

 

I agree this is not really meaningful.

 

 

 

 

No, UVA president suspended all Fraternity activities until Jan 9. I actually think that's meaningless based on the calendar.

--If there are classes this week the campus will completely clear out on Tuesday

--When student return there will be just 3 weeks left for final projects, papers and exams, even at UVA not the best time to party

--classes won't be in session until after Jan 9

 

So, such a suspension does not really affect fraternity activities. However, the president may be buying time to evaluate the investigation.

 

WVU suspended frats because a freshman died at one of the frats, in what might be an alcohol/hazing incident.

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How to teach sons? The lessons start from infancy, about moral imperatives, higher authority, and the worth of every human life. This is not a discussion to begin with high school seniors. Begin it with toddlers.

 

But parents, you can't get these lessons across while also pounding in the mantras about top colleges and best careers.

 

If you aren't willing for your sons to be honest day laborers or vocational students or whatever they turn out to be, in other words if PARENTS can't prioritize correctly, the money and power messages are the main messages the boys will hear! They'll head into college life and adulthood thinking they can live like the devil as long as they keep checking off those boxes. Best college? Check. Good grades? Check. Degree? Check. Loss of my own soul and destruction of others? What?

 

It has to come from the heart. We have to be able to authentically say, "I'd rather you never attend college a day in your life if going there means you turn into a feral animal with all the others."

 

Not to distract from the Rolling Stone article-which I'm not sure I can form a coherent comment on yet, other than to say that I would not limit this sub-culture strictly to UVA.  I think that it is present at many schools and press coverage of one institution doesn't mean that others are "safe".

 

While I do agree that providing a moral compass to a young man (or woman) begins early in life, I do have to disagree with some of what seems implied here.

 

I hope I have and continue to instill morals and values in my children.  Those we discuss are many and increasingly complex in nature as they age.  Learning how to prioritize one value over another when they come into conflict is also important.  However, I strongly disagree with the implication in the above that college/university students are all "feral animals" or that by attending an institution of higher learning they will loose their soul and/or destroy the lives and souls of others.  Placing a value on education and careers doesn't need to be incompatible with having a moral compass.  Perhaps my children will head to university, public service or trades, I don't yet know what path they will end up on.  I do know that it is possible to be good, moral, university educated, and successful in life without becoming an animal or selling your soul.

 

Peer pressure is just one of a multitude of pressures that university students face; one that I am sure can be a unique challenge for those who have been homeschooled through high school.  My hat is off to all of you who are and have already walked this path with your kids (not to mention all our WTM university students and grads).

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Not to distract from the Rolling Stone article-which I'm not sure I can form a coherent comment on yet, other than to say that I would not limit this sub-culture strictly to UVA.  I think that it is present at many schools and press coverage of one institution doesn't mean that others are "safe".

 

While I do agree that providing a moral compass to a young man (or woman) begins early in life, I do have to disagree with some of what seems implied here.

 

I hope I have and continue to instill morals and values in my children.  Those we discuss are many and increasingly complex in nature as they age.  Learning how to prioritize one value over another when they come into conflict is also important.  However, I strongly disagree with the implication in the above that college/university students are all "feral animals" or that by attending an institution of higher learning they will loose their soul and/or destroy the lives and souls of others.  Placing a value on education and careers doesn't need to be incompatible with having a moral compass.  Perhaps my children will head to university, public service or trades, I don't yet know what path they will end up on.  I do know that it is possible to be good, moral, university educated, and successful in life without becoming an animal or selling your soul.

 

Peer pressure is just one of a multitude of pressures that university students face; one that I am sure can be a unique challenge for those who have been homeschooled through high school.  My hat is off to all of you who are and have already walked this path with your kids (not to mention all our WTM university students and grads).

 

I said nothing of the kind. At least 3/4 of my kids are college bound, accepted to college, studying, I very carefully prepared them for college academics as the default plan...I absolutely said nothing of the kind.

 

The feral animals referenced would be the college students who behaved like animals, not college students who don't.

 

How you think I meant that all college students behave as feral animals is entirely beyond my understanding.

 

My exact quote was this: "We have to be able to authentically say, "I'd rather you never attend college a day in your life if going there means you turn into a feral animal with all the others."

 

Do you really think I should have redundantly qualified that as "all the others who go to college and turn into feral animals, not that every single college student does"? Do you really think the qualifier is not implied, or easily assumed?

 

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I said nothing of the kind. At least 3/4 of my kids are college bound, accepted to college, studying, I very carefully prepared them for college academics as the default plan...I absolutely said nothing of the kind.

 

The feral animals referenced would be the college students who behaved like animals, not college students who don't.

 

How you think I meant that all college students behave as feral animals is entirely beyond my understanding.

 

My exact quote was this: "We have to be able to authentically say, "I'd rather you never attend college a day in your life if going there means you turn into a feral animal with all the others."

 

Do you really think I should have redundantly qualified that as "all the others who go to college and turn into feral animals, not that every single college student does"? Do you really think the qualifier is not implied, or easily assumed?

 

 

Actually, yes, it may have needed qualification.  No where in your comments was I able to infer that you felt college students were anything other than feral animals.

 

Having spent a decade among homeschoolers where I often have to defend my choice of preparing my students for university and being open to them attending a secular university/college;  I find that I cannot assume that my fellow homeschoolers view higher education in a positive light.  Nor do they often view students at such institutions in a positive manner.

 

To my reading, your comments implied that those who choose to raise their children to value education, elite institutions of higher learning and high paying careers were incapable of also promoting morality and positive values.  If I misunderstood your comments, you have my apologies.

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I find that I cannot assume that my fellow homeschoolers view higher education in a positive light.  Nor do they often view students at such institutions in a positive manner.

 

This belief is also found in some ps parents.  It's not uncommon for me to hear "the only thing kids learn in college is how to drink and ____."

 

It's a tough call really as there are definitely kids who do fall into that trap.  But then there are others who do not.

 

I feel fortunate that (so far) mine have avoided it and are enjoying the really great aspects of higher education both in and out of the classroom.  But I'll admit I held my breath when each of them left.

 

I guess I'm of the belief that we did our best to raise them with our values up to age 18 (when I wanted mine to leave) having tons of discussion and giving them more freedom as they grew at home.  Once they left home they are truly flying on their own (with financial and mental support still) and need to make their own decisions about how they want to live their life.  Their choices might not be mine, but it's their life and their decision to make (about more than drinking, etc, of course).

 

That said, if any of my guys had been involved in something like this... as a pp said... they better hope the law gets to them before I do.

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I said nothing of the kind. At least 3/4 of my kids are college bound, accepted to college, studying, I very carefully prepared them for college academics as the default plan...I absolutely said nothing of the kind.

 

The feral animals referenced would be the college students who behaved like animals, not college students who don't.

 

How you think I meant that all college students behave as feral animals is entirely beyond my understanding.

 

My exact quote was this: "We have to be able to authentically say, "I'd rather you never attend college a day in your life if going there means you turn into a feral animal with all the others."

 

Do you really think I should have redundantly qualified that as "all the others who go to college and turn into feral animals, not that every single college student does"? Do you really think the qualifier is not implied, or easily assumed?

 

 

Actually I had to read your post a couple times myself.  I have also been around a good number of folks who don't want to send their kids to college or who will only consider a specific list of religious colleges.  This does come from both public and homeschool families, but I'd say in my experience I've heard it more from homeschoolers.  These are often the same homeschoolers who are explaining to me that there is no difference between the college mill degree their 12 year old is working on and every other college and degree program.

 

And to be honest, there are so many posters on the boards now that I don't always remember the backstory of each one.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen something from a poster I've never noticed before and then realized that they have several thousand posts and have been on the board for a couple years. 

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One of the odd things I'm noticing as I check rape reports in the area around the campuses we are considering is that there are older men living in dorms now.  I find this really odd....a 30 something in a dorm with 17-19 year olds is not what I call acceptable.

 

When I was 18, we had an older guy (30) living in our dorm.  Honestly?  I think he was often a voice of reason.

 

It really depends on the guy.  But I would suspect that a 30 yr old who was not inclined to instigate this sort of behavior on his own would likely be the guy who would be able to say, no, guys, this really isn't acceptable.  A younger guy who knew it wasn't acceptable might not have as much courage/life experience.

 

Course, then there was the teacher at the local school who was "old enough to know better" who still had his way with some of the girls there.  So this sort of thinking only applies to guys who have their heads on right to begin with.  (And I'll just say here -- if you think an older man is paying too much attention to the girls in his class, um, you might want to trust your instincts.  I'm glad I did.  I just wish I'd known more so I could have stopped what he was doing with kids who weren't mine.)

 

 

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Years later, I wonder if that girl next door to me in the dorms who got all weepy and wouldn't go out anymore after that wild party one weekend -- the one who all the other girls on the floor were saying: "yeah, she let so and so go to bed with her and now she's blaming him for not calling her the next day... but the slut should have known better than to hop in to bed with him"

 

And I wish I'd known to ask what had really happened, or at least be there for her.  Because, based on how she reacted, I'm guessing it wasn't just a case of a slut trying to blame a guy for going too far when she asked for it.

 

She dropped out of school that semester.

 

But I didn't know.  At the time, it never occurred to me that something like that would have happened in our "safe" dorm.

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Years later, I wonder if that girl next door to me in the dorms who got all weepy and wouldn't go out anymore after that wild party one weekend -- the one who all the other girls on the floor were saying: "yeah, she let so and so go to bed with her and now she's blaming him for not calling her the next day... but the slut should have known better than to hop in to bed with him"

 

And I wish I'd known to ask what had really happened, or at least be there for her. Because, based on how she reacted, I'm guessing it wasn't just a case of a slut trying to blame a guy for going too far when she asked for it.

 

She dropped out of school that semester.

 

But I didn't know. At the time, it never occurred to me that something like that would have happened in our "safe" dorm.

:crying:

 

That is so sad.

 

That reminds me of that poor boy who was missing from the College of St Rose for so long before they found his body. before they found his body, it sounded like he was severely depressed. his roommate said he wasn't getting out of bed or going anywhere for days. Then he was gone for 2 days before his roommate reported him missing.

 

Kids with other kids and not recognizing the horrible pain they might be in.

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The same actress was in a trailer of the new Night at the Museum movie and at the end she said, "Have you never seen a gorgeous woman before who could be a mother if she didn't love pizza so much?" referring to her weight. :thumbdown:

 

Ok, just saw this. I think she actually said, "who could be a model" - not mother. Not sure which one is worse?

 

The whole situation (in general) has me  :confused1:  and  :crying:  and  :cursing:  and  :sad: and  :mad:  and  :ack2: . 

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Ok, just saw this. I think she actually said, "who could be a model" - not mother. Not sure which one is worse?

 

The whole situation (in general) has me :confused1: and :crying: and :cursing: and :sad: and :mad: and :ack2: .

You're right. She says model. You would think I could understand a thick accent watching so much Doctor Who.

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Part of the problem is the extreme way we treat rapists when we do bother to convict. The young men who perpetrate this stuff by and large can learn better. They can be rehabilitated. But that's often not how it's handled. Instead, in addition to whatever punishment, we register them as sex offenders, with the same permanent stamp of shame as a pedophile whom we may legitimately be concerned is incapable of rehabilitation.

 

Fears of saddling young men with these consequences, disproportionate to the crime when they are guilty (never mind that 8% of false accusations), leads to reluctance to prosecute, which leads to more men getting away with it.

 

The single biggest actual influence the criminal justice system has on crime deterrence is if the likelihood of getting caught is perceived as high.

 

I'd love to see jurisdictions with universities set up diversion programs. Arrest the young men perpetrating these crimes, then give them a chance to enter a diversion program to make the charges go away. To succeed in diversion they must go through appropriate behavioral therapy, pay restitution money into a victims' fund, serve community service hours, and graduate on time. To be allowed to stay in school they should have to secure housing in a dedicated facility with a curfew.

 

A program like that would remove the disincentive to prosecute, rehabilitate those future professionals, and help pay for counseling and treatment for victims of sexual violence on campus. It would increase the visibility of consequences for and chances of getting caught and improve prosecution.

 

I'd also like to see a straight talk sex ed program in high schools instead of the abstinence nonsense taught now in a lot of the U.S.

 

On the surface, this makes sense, but I am torn.

 

When I see numbers like 50% of men between 18-25 believe that sex with someone who is passed out is perfectly okay, then of course I think we need to do more to educate them.  On the other hand, with the media attention, I find it difficult to believe that 50% truly believe it's okay. If so, why go to elaborate lengths to guard stairs to the upper floors of a frat house when an assault is occurring?  I think they believe it's okay only because administrations have let them get away with it forever.

 

So a young man goes through a diversion program, makes the charges go away, and gets to stay on campus and graduate. His life might be a bit uncomfortable, but the young woman he set up has a life that's a living hell. She is physically and mentally scarred; the likelihood that she will drop out of school is considerable. Her life is forever changed: the nature of intimate relationships, the possibility of depression, perhaps her child-bearing capacity, and if she doesn't graduate, maybe her standard of living.  All of this and we're terrified of labeling a young man who perpetrated the crime so that his future is affected. His future darn well ought to be affected.

 

I'll take your plan because it's better than what we have, but it still gives far greater consideration to the rapists than to the victims. I wouldn't mind academic suspension for all the guys that know what their friends are doing and do nothing to stop it.

 

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A friend of mine teaches at a college. He told me about a student who told him she had been assaulted, while drunk, at a party by a fellow student. She refused to report it. He reported it to the police, the school and called the girl's parents. Their response? She shouldn't have gotten so drunk.

Unbelievable.

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From Rolling Stones:

 

In the face of new information, there now appear to be discrepancies in Jackie's account, and we have come to the conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced. We were trying to be sensitive to the unfair shame and humiliation many women feel after a sexual assault and now regret the decision to not contact the alleged assaulters to get their account. We are taking this seriously and apologize to anyone who was affected by the story.

Will Dana
Managing Editor

 

 

 

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Just chiming in to say, when I was at college (big party school) I was very involved in sorority and spent quite a lot of time with fraternities and one in particular, including "little sisters."  It was a very positive experience and all the guys I knew were upstanding gentlemanly types, treated women with respect, considered their female friends as true sisters and would never stand for such abominable behavior.  Never.  Not to say it doesn't happen, not at all, but please do not condemn the entire "Greek" community.  For many people it is truly about close-knit community and service.

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I just heard on the news that some of the discrepancies are the fact that a Greek male fitting her description did not work at the pool at that time and there was no frat party on the date she gave.

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There's so much to this story -  there's another thread with updates. The woman stated to another reported that she'd asked to not be identified at all but the RS pressured her to run the story with her name.

RS didn't fact check & ran it with some statements that shouldn't have been there. But I think they're throwing her under the bus for their bad reporting.

WaPo

"Speaking for the first time since the details of her alleged sexual assault were published in Rolling Stone, the 20-year-old U-Va. junior told The Post that she stands by her version of the events. In lengthy in-person interviews, Jackie recounted an attack very similar to the one she presented in the magazine: She had gone on a date with a member of the house, went to a party there and ended up in a room where she was brutally attacked — seven men raping her in succession with two others watching — leaving her bloody, permanently injured and emotionally devastated."

& as people have pointed out "@femme_esq 2h2 hours ago

If you're saying the Post story shows Jackie to be lying, you have to accept their word as true. And they quote 2 MORE UVA RAPE VICTIMS."

It's also possible that her story is garbled AND true. Rape victims - actually all crime victims - have trouble recalling details.

 

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I agree Hornblower.  I also think that the message behind the article still needs to be addressed.  My post above was simply stating what I heard being reported.  

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