Can we talk about dogs, puppies, buying, adoption?

[Joanne]

This post emerges from my own mistakes, from years of reading pet threads, from having been involved in a rescue organization, and from teaching parenting.

 

My own mistakes include accepting pets (dogs in particular) when my kids were too small, and later, when my budget was too small. I had a casual, under-informed understanding of what puppy or dog care involved functionally. I had a romanticized vision of having a family with a dog, without consideration for the appropriateness of the pet to the stage of the family or need of the breed.

 

Eventually, I was unable to provide needed medical, preventative care. I was not able to be home and focused enough to properly socialize, train, and companion them. I relied on my kids - and they were too young and immature - even as teens.

 

Professionally, I have observed that families often try to make dogs or puppies "work" in their family constellation without informed regard for the reality that 2 year olds and puppies are a great match for Facebook pictures, but often NOT for reality. I have written blog posts cautioning families of youngers to wait - these are often the families who want to "complete" the family picture by adding a pet.

 

In my earlier, single, pre kids days, I was part of a grass root organization that fostered. They eventually, 2 decades later, raised enough to build and staff a shelter. I remain pro-shelter, pro-screened adoption.

 

I don't know that I will ever return to dog "ownership" but if I do, it will be consciously, informed, and committed. I can't see me having adequate time to do that in the near or intermediate future.

 

I'd like to have an honest discussion of being dog owners in Western culture in the 2000's.

 

[linders]

You raise excellent points - dogs deserve a family with enough money and enough time. If you have to debate whether you want to shell out for routine monthly heartworm and tick meds, you shouldn't get a dog. If you cannot afford a vet bill when the dog is clearly in pain, you shouldn't get a dog. If the house is empty 12 hours a day regularly, you shouldn't get a dog. If the dog will be left outside alone all day (even when you are home), you shouldn't get a dog. If the idea of spending time training every day (when they are young) sounds tedious, you shouldn't get a dog. Dogs are pack animals and need their pack, and they need to know how to behave within that pack.

 

A dog should be a family decision - ideally, the dog becomes another family member (a junior one), and should be treated well by all. (That doesn't mean everyone has to love Fluffy, but certainly never mistreat Fluffy.) A family should choose the right breed for their lifestyle, with the idea of including the dog when appropriate - for example, we camp and hike a lot. A small, anxious lap dog would not work well, so we have always had mid-size (40-65 pound) dogs. For other people, a small dog might better fit in with their activities.

 

And very few people "need" a purebred. If what you really mean is you want a dog of a certain size and temperment, work with local and regional rescue agencies. They can usually help you. There are far too many puppy mills (and frankly, even some supposedly reputable breeders) who want to sell you on their purebred. Meanwhile, the Humane Society estimates that over 1 million dogs are euthanized each year for lack of a decent home.

 

Stepping down off of soapbox.

[Desert Strawberry]

Hmm, I'm new at this dog thing. But I'd like to join in. 

 

I'd never had a dog and always wanted one. For me, I guess it was always more about ME than the kids. I wanted it for them, too, but I always knew it would be MY dog, first and last. 

 

Our first two dogs were found strays. One was eating out of my trash. He was scrawny and clearly starving. I took him in, fed him, fell in love with him. Then the original owners came and took him back. He didn't last long. I was heartbroken. 

 

Soon after, someone we knew found a dog and offered it to my husband. He brought her home. She was a beautiful, wild, neglected, 9 month old Golden retriever. My kids were 6 and 2, and she was WAY too much for us. We gave it a good try, but then I found a rescue organization for her breed, and surrendered her. It was absolutely the right choice. I loved her but we could not take care of her. They found her a great home where she was very happy, healthy and well cared for. 

Another two years passed. We didn't want to go through these failures again. Then a neighbor offered my kids a puppy. They were head-over-heels. This time, it was an appropriate breed, with which I had experience. A dachshund puppy, which a family I nannied for in college had had and I adored.  I felt more confident this time. We bought all the supplies, talked to a trainer, and never got the puppy. It turns out, the puppies didn't belong to her, but to a roommate who was in the hospital. Heart break number three. 

 

So, we decided to contact a rescue agency and find a dog that would be a good fit and actually belong us. At this time, I had 3 kids 1-8 and I was pregnant. Not great timing. But we figured we could make it work. We checked out a pet shop, went to an adoption event, found a few dogs on Petfinders, and made some calls. By this time, I was quite clear on what I wanted. 

We got a call back for a Chihuahua-rat terrier mix. She was adorable, but I fully expected to be told that having so many kids and being 6 months pregnant ruled us out. I had all the puppy stuff, and was prepared to carry her around like a baby for a couple of months. I also had my own room and the kitchen barricaded in preparation for my newborn, so the puppy and baby would both have designated safe places. I was very honest about our situation with the foster mom. She said, "You are the family I've been waiting for." She had turned away three other families because they would not have the time to give Savannah the attention she would need. She had been neglected and abused and was emotionally fragile. She adored children and needed pampering. We were the perfect fit. 

She is a healthy, happy, loving, gentle, sweet little dog. She is so easy to care for. I didn't have to keep her away from my kids at all. She loved them immediately, and they have always been kind and gentle with her. She is never bored or destructive. She just loves all of us so much. And we love her. This has been the happiest ending. It also turns out that she is quite large for her breed. Her sibs are 4 pounds, but she is over 14. Slender but strong. Her foster mom and I are still friendly. We haven't had much money, but she eats the best food money can buy, wears hand-knit sweaters and sleeps under hand sewn quilts. My boys take her for 3-4 walks a day. She has more toys than she needs, and is surrounded by love. She is spoiled. 

 

Savannah is the sweetest thing in my life. I never knew a love so pure as the love of a puppy. I don't know how we got along without her. 

 

ETA: This is her at around 4 months old. She is she just turned 4 years old, is twice as tall, and has lots more spots. We love her so much. 

[Crimson Wife]

When we were first married, I got talked into accepting two puppies (they'll keep each other company!) by a work colleague who ran the foster dog program at the Army base we were living at and my DH. He liked the idea of having dogs as pets but wasn't around enough to actually do any of the work produced by them. I'd grown up with cats so I didn't realize just how much work puppies were.

 

We wound up having to rehome them a few years later when DH went to grad school and we couldn't have pets in the dorm. By that point, oldest DD was a toddler and I was still employed FT so I really wasn't able to give them the attention they needed. 

 

The kids and DH have been lobbying for years to get another dog. I have told that the only way that's happening is if it is a trained service dog that can accompany youngest DD to her school. She is technically old enough for a service dog at this point, but having seen her around my dad's dog (he got one after he retired) and dogs we see at the park, I don't think she's ready yet. It wouldn't be fair to the service dog to get one until she's learned how to be gentle around animals. Functionally she's more like a 3.5-4 y.o. and I wouldn't get a dog for a typical child that age.

[hornblower]

I think the biggest change that has been happening, & is still 'evolving' is the perception of animals and their worth.

When talking to rescue peers who are having sad days (& for most rescue volunteers, every day is sad day with an endless stream of people wanting to dump pets and not enough room, not enough fosters, not enough money to help them all) one thing I sometimes like to remind all of us about is how much things have changed wrt adoption of children.

Remember in Anne of Green Gables how you could just grab one out of the orphanage? (it's perhaps more in your face in the film than in the book but it's in both...) You just look them over and pick one. Or if you can't be bothered to make the trip, you send someone else to just grab one for you. & when you don't need them anymore, you dump them back.

& I'm sure back then there was someone moaning "WHAT? They expect me to call a doctor and buy medicines for this orphan?? Are they nuts? If she's that sickly and dies, I can just get a new one."

Things changed.

Things are changing for animals too. Slowly, but changing.


Wanna hear the dregs of stupidity? Excuses for dumping pets: got new couch and the dog doesn't match, the fur shows on it now!; got a new puppy & the old cat is not happy so I'm dumping a cat I've owned 12 years (dumping old animals for new ones is extremely common); bought a hamster at a store for child to keep her happy during the month long teacher strike & strike is over so we don't need it anymore;  kids went to college (now dumping the old dog that grew up with the kids). These are real examples of reasons people give.

Dog rescue is bad. Cat rescue is worse. Rabbit & small pocket pet is abysmal. It's like people think these small, lovely living creatures with personalities and needs are just disposable plastic toys :(  

At the end of the day: the most common reason is that people made selfish, often impulse, purchases, & are continuing to be selfish.

 

My plea is this: If you can't commit for the lifespan of the animal, if you can't afford to care for it, to pay for its medical needs, to put in time and energy to meet its physical, emotional and intellectual needs, then don't get the pet. Don't be that selfish, heartless person.


If you're not sure but want to explore pet ownership, consider fostering. Everyone is always short of foster homes. Fostering saves lives because if there's no foster home, that animal will be euthanized.  Don't say 'oh no, I couldn't, I'd get too attached'. Think about the life you're saving.

[Pawz4me]

Okay.  I'll say it.

 

I'm all for adopting pets.

 

But I'm not against buying from a good breeder, either.

 

It depends on the situation.

 

If it matters (and before any flaming starts) -- I've been very actively involved in dog/cat rescue for close to twenty years now.  I've done it all--fostering, transporting, working in a shelter.  I seriously doubt there's anyone on this board who has any more experience in that than I do.  And while I always like to see people at least consider adopting, I don't think buying from a good breeder is a terrible horrible no good thing.

[hornblower]

Okay.  I'll say it.

 

I'm pro pet adoption.

 

But I'm not against buying from a good breeder, either.

 

 

Oh, me too. I was going to write that but I thought it was getting too long.

 

Reputable breeders are rare but they exist & there is nothing wrong with going that route. There are many reputable breeders involved in rescue - that's how you know they're reputable LOL

 

I think a lot of people don't go that route because again, they're kind of spoiled and expect to buy a dog like a new jacket. Look around for a few days or weeks & grab one they like. Reputable breeders might have wait lists for litters a year down the road, and will often screen you harder than a rescue & will want to help you pick your puppy to make sure it's well matched.

 

Again, it's a change in what acquiring a dog looks like.

 

Alas the money hungry byb & puppy mills are flooding the classifieds so the people who want instant gratification are being indulged.  We're making some moves here to ban sales of live animals in stores and bit by bit, things are changing.

 

[Anne]

I have not read this thread, but I just wanted to throw an idea out there.  One of my daughters last summer went to a nearby shelter (where she has previously volunteered and is known), and borrowed different dogs and took them hiking with her.  She wasn't able to have a dog right then, but this was a benefit for both her and the dog.  She gets a hiking buddy, the dog gets some exercise and socialization.   The same daughter fostered some puppies one year.  Again, she got to enjoy the puppy experience without the commitment and the puppies got some socialization, training and care.  Win-Win-Win!

 

So, for those who would like some canine contact but are unable to make a commitment right now, fostering might be a good option for you!

 

Anne

[Just Kate]

Dh and I got a 4 month old lab mix over 12 years ago. We call him our first child and since he was around before our kids, they consider him to be their brother. He was A LOT of work as a puppy. I mean A LOT. But since it was 12 years ago, and since he is such an easy dog now, I will admit that I kind of forgot how time and energy intensive puppies can be.

 

Which brings us to this past summer. My best friend got a puppy from the shelter that died suddenly. I started looking online via Pet Finder to help find her another pup to adopt. I found the sweetest little mut...and the rest is history. My kiddos and I quickly completed the adoption paperwork and then drove the hour drive to the shelter to meet the puppy. She was about 6 weeks old and we brought her home that day. I love her (boy do I love her!) but she requires WAY more work and time than I had considered. And really, more money too.

 

Right now, she is running around my living room with a cone on her head (she was just spayed last Friday), dragging her water bowl around so that she can dump it. That girl LOVES to dump water all over the floor! She is busy, busy. Either she needs to be chewing on something or she is determined to drive the 12 year old dog crazy! I have spent tons of money on safe chewies for her. And of course, when we got our older dog, there wasn't nearly as much info on the Internet (and I didn't have kids yet!) so we just got him food that we thought was "good enough" (IAMS brand). Now, with all of the websites dedicated to reviewing dog food, I have learned that IAMS isn't the best (not even close) and I have spent even more money on finding a good, quality food for both pups. 

 

I will add that my dh works out of town, so almost everything with this puppy is left to me. My kiddos are helpful (ages 10 and 7), but they are just kids and I made the decision early on that if I got another dog, it would be MY responsibility.

 

Puppies are hard work. There was a time when she was about 9 or 10 weeks old that I honestly felt like if someone came and took her from me, I wouldn't mind. All she did at that time was pee on my carpet and bite. And little puppy teeth are sharp!!! But we have (slowly) come out of that stage. She rarely has an accident in our house and her play bites aren't nearly as painful.  For our family, if we ever get another dog, I think I would prefer a (much) older puppy...maybe a year or so? I mean, puppies are cute, but they are difficult!

 

 

[beaners]

I think there is also a different expectation of the role of rescues. I see people post on this forum *all the time* saying to find a rescue to help rehome a dog someone is having trouble with. The rescue I have worked with and fostered for before (we're too busy right now, but we still support them) and other similar rescues in the area only rarely do owner intakes in very extreme situations. The majority of their dogs are pulled from the high-kill animal control facilities in the area. They just don't have the time and money and resources to help everyone who wants to get rid of a dog because they never bothered to get it housetrained. They are trying to get dogs out of the kill shelters before they are euthanized for space. They save a lot of them, but a lot are still put to sleep. They are there to rescue dogs from death, not to rescue poorly prepared owners from taking responsibility for the animals they took on. That sounds much harsher than I intend it to, and I know rescues work differently in other areas. There just seems to be a very different idea of the purpose of rescues than the actual mission of a lot of rescue groups.

[Carrie12345]

I am pro-dogs-for-kids, but with many, many caveats (some I've always had, and some I've picked up through experience.)

 

If you expect it to be easy, don't do it.

If you expect it to be cheap, don't do it.

If you expect your kids to take the responsibility, don't do it.

If you can't supervise every single moment of child/animal interaction, don't do it.

If you think supervision will 100% prevent danger, don't do it.

If you think of a dog as a small child, don't do it.

If you think people who pour insane amounts of time, energy, research, and money into being "good" dog owners are stupid, PLEASE don't do it!

[Plink]

Okay.  I'll say it.

 

I'm all for adopting pets.

 

But I'm not against buying from a good breeder, either.

 

It depends on the situation.

 

If it matters (and before any flaming starts) -- I've been very actively involved in dog/cat rescue for close to twenty years now.  I've done it all--fostering, transporting, working in a shelter.  I seriously doubt there's anyone on this board who has any more experience in that than I do.  And while I always like to see people at least consider adopting, I don't think buying from a good breeder is a terrible horrible no good thing.

Absolutely!  We have several people with major allergies in our home, and are therefore only able to have purebred dogs, so my heartfelt thanks goes to reputable breeders.

 

My personal puppy soapbox - Please don't think that you are doing your pup a service by allowing them to roam all over the house and then screeching when you discover that they chewed through the extension cord, ate the garbage out of the bottom of grandma's purse, or peed on your son's bedroom rug.  Puppies require constant vigilance.  If you can't give them 100% of your attention, it is kindest to put them into a position where they can't get hurt or create bad habits.  (Yes, sometimes that means that they will need to be crated)

[monstermama]

Maybe this should be a spin-off thread, but what would you consider a good age (kid-wise) to get a dog?  We'd like to adopt an older dog somewhere down the line, but I don't have much dog experience and while DH does, I think he has some rose-colored glasses firmly attached :)  I was thinking 6 or 7, but we do plan on having more kids, also...

[Just Kate]

Maybe this should be a spin-off thread, but what would you consider a good age (kid-wise) to get a dog?  We'd like to adopt an older dog somewhere down the line, but I don't have much dog experience and while DH does, I think he has some rose-colored glasses firmly attached :)  I was thinking 6 or 7, but we do plan on having more kids, also...

 

My family has a 12 year old Lab and a 5 month old German Shepherd mix. Our kids have always done well with the lab, as he was here before they were. But with the puppy, my 10 year old ds is VERY helpful but my 7 year old dd can't help quite as much. She loves the pup, but has more trouble controlling her. She also got a little scared of the pup when she was going through her I-bite-everything stage.

 

I think 6 or 7 is a good age. But if you expect a lot of help, maybe a bit older.

[hornblower]

Maybe this should be a spin-off thread, but what would you consider a good age (kid-wise) to get a dog?  We'd like to adopt an older dog somewhere down the line, but I don't have much dog experience and while DH does, I think he has some rose-colored glasses firmly attached :)  I was thinking 6 or 7, but we do plan on having more kids, also...

 

I think with the right dog & the right family, any age is fine.  Maybe do some reading on this website & consider some of her books while you ponder. fhttp://www.livingwithkidsanddogs.com/

 

A good rescue group would be able to help you adopt an appropriate dog for you.

Do consider that the dog is always the adults'. That's where the buck stops. If you don't want to walk, care, train, & pay for it, don't get it. It *might* happen that you get a child who becomes hyper involved & wants to go to training & starts agility or another dog sport, & becomes super hooked - or just adores hanging out with the dog & playing & spending time - but you just can't count on it.

 

Bet on you or your dh being the primary dog people, and rejoice if one of your kids wants to be your buddy in the dog world, but don't count on it.... Instead *model* responsible pet ownership yourself.

[Joanne]

My family has a 12 year old Lab and a 5 month old German Shepherd mix. Our kids have always done well with the lab, as he was here before they were. But with the puppy, my 10 year old ds is VERY helpful but my 7 year old dd can't help quite as much. She loves the pup, but has more trouble controlling her. She also got a little scared of the pup when she was going through her I-bite-everything stage.

 

I think 6 or 7 is a good age. But if you expect a lot of help, maybe a bit older.

 

One of the other considerations is that toddlers, preschoolers and young elementaries want to play, touch fur, poke, pull, etc. The animals are fascinating and compelling - often beyond the child's ability to use impulse control.

[Crimson Wife]

 

My plea is this: If you can't commit for the lifespan of the animal, if you can't afford to care for it, to pay for its medical needs, to put in time and energy to meet its physical, emotional and intellectual needs, then don't get the pet. Don't be that selfish, heartless person.

 

Circumstances change, and people don't have crystal balls to allow them to see what things are going to be like years in advance.

[Catwoman]

I don't think anyone can make a blanket determination about how old the children in a household should be before they get a dog.

 

Every family is different.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I suppose some people might say I don't like dogs because I don't want all the work and expense involved. My parents feed their dog a raw meat/veggie diet and the food costs about $200 per month (for a standard poodle of about 70 lbs). Their cat got pancreatitis but has recovered since they switched her from a raw meat diet to an all-sardine diet. While it's true that I mostly don't want the work of taking care of a pet, I also don't want the expense of the food because I personally wouldn't feel comfortable giving my pet dried pet "food."

[Spy Car]

Ethical breeders (who are not that rare) spend a lot of time, money, and brain-work into improving the health, temperament, and working characteristics in their breeds.

 

It is a tospy-turvey world we are living in where people feel a need to apologize for getting (or recommending) dogs that have had exceptional care put into their conception, who receive outstanding initial veterinary care, are well-socialized, are not subject to cruelty and abuse, and are paired with responsible owners via a screening process.

 

One could wish this was the norm in our society, but it ain't. 

 

We have an obvious pet problem in this country, with tragic euthanasia rates and ugly policies (like Mandatory Spay/Neuter laws) that flow from irresponsable dog breeding and irresponsible pet ownership. But making those who operate most responsibly, like conscientious breeders, into people who need "defending" is upside-down thinking. But that is the crazy-place we are in at the moment. 

 

Bill

 

 

 

[Dicentra]

What does everyone think of the advice to ask oneself:

 

"Do you love your dog or do you love to love your dog?"

 

It was in a puppy training book we got from the library a few years back (can't remember which one).  It was basically asking people to consider why they are doing the things they are doing for their dog.  The idea was that loving your dog meant doing things that may not make the dog ecstatically happy at the moment but are better for it in the long run.  Loving to love your dog means doing things that make you happy because it seems to make your pup happy in the short term.  Giving in to the pup and giving it people food is loving to love your dog - it makes us feel good even if it's not so good for the puppy over time.  Setting a boundary and not allowing the dog to have whatever you're having because it's better for the pup in the long run is loving your dog - we don't get that happy feeling from satisfying the dog's immediate want and having the dog then be ecstatically happy but it's better for the dog in the long haul.

 

Just wondered what the Hive thinks. :)

[hornblower]

Circumstances change, and people don't have crystal balls to allow them to see what things are going to be like years in advance.

 

yes, but it should be a rare thing. There are hard circumstances that crop up - major illness, major changes in life circumstances, loss of jobs, seniors going into assisted living (those I get when it's an old dog, but we've seen YOUNG dogs that need to be placed. Why did 85 yo grandma get a puppy that now needs to be placed two years later because nobody in her family wants it?)

 

What we mostly see is stuff that could have been predicted. Some people put in a lot of effort to still make things work & giving up a pet is a last resort.  There are organization working hard to help the homeless keep their pets, organizations that look after animals for women fleeing abusive home situations  etc. There are so many people who are going the extra mile & yeah, sometimes that does mean placing the dog in another loving home.

 

But what we mostly see is a lot of pretty lame excuses ("I just don't have time! (yeah, but your facebook shows you belong to two book clubs and go dancing every Saturday night) "She's bigger than I thought!" (um, you bought a leonberger. How big did you think she'd be?) "She's just not working out plus I'm going on holiday this Sunday & I can't find boarding for less than $50/day & that's just ridiculous." (summer time pre-holiday dumping is a real thing) & people who dump pets with no glance back.

 

 

http://youtu.be/2SKerU-PkbA

[hornblower]

What does everyone think of the advice to ask oneself:

 

"Do you love your dog or do you love to love your dog?"

 

It was in a puppy training book we got from the library a few years back (can't remember which one).  It was basically asking people to consider why they are doing the things they are doing for their dog.  The idea was that loving your dog meant doing things that may not make the dog ecstatically happy at the moment but are better for it in the long run.  Loving to love your dog means doing things that make you happy because it seems to make your pup happy in the short term.  Giving in to the pup and giving it people food is loving to love your dog - it makes us feel good even if it's not so good for the puppy over time.  Setting a boundary and not allowing the dog to have whatever you're having because it's better for the pup in the long run is loving your dog - we don't get that happy feeling from satisfying the dog's immediate want and having the dog then be ecstatically happy but it's better for the dog in the long haul.

 

Just wondered what the Hive thinks. :)

 

I think while the sentiment in the quotes is good, the subsequent para falls dangerously close to the 'look out you'll spoil your dog, they need leaders, pack, domimance!' cliff of unsubstantiated, unscientific dog rearing mumbo jumbo. 

 

Whether you give your dog people food or not is completely & totally irrelevant.

 

Teaching your dog good manners to enable it to be a good member of the family & society is what's important.  Reinforcing begging is something I don't like. But I like to teach my dogs to beg on cue :)

 

See what I get from that quote is something completely different.

 

Because I see people who drag unhappy dogs to agility or to parks or to other activities the dog doesn't enjoy. I see people who keep petting dogs who don't want to be petted.

I also see people ignoring their dogs' needs for exercise, for play, for mental games, for companionship because it's not convenient for the human or because they have some rigid code of what living with dog is supposed to look like. 

 

So yes, love the dog, respect the dog, work as a team, listen when the dog is saying 'this isn't for me' & find stuff to do together that make both of you happy is where I go with that quote.

[Jann in TX]

We have had and currently have both-- pure breds and rescue dogs.

 

All of our dogs have been German Shepherds or GS mixes (one was a GS-corgi and our current is a GS-lab).

 

Both of our rescue dogs have been the sweetest dogs-- BUT they came with issues due to neglect in there BU (before us) days.  We are talking major separation anxiety that has cost us THOUSANDS of dollars in damage (both dogs also worked with professional trainers and behavior specialists).  Our current rescue will not go outside even for a split second without a human.  The issue was always there --but has magnified now that she is getting older (8-10 years old now).

 

Our other dogs (reputable breeders) have been much easier to work with/train... and have been well adjusted dogs.

 

Our cats have always been rescues-- we rescued our current cat 15 years ago (he was an adult who had lived in the shelter-- very small cage-- for over 6 months-- he is an AWESOME cat!).

 

Our horse was also a rescue (nearly starved to death)--- he was a great friend too  (we lost him to a stroke last year at the age of 37).

 

[AimeeM]

I don't think anyone can make a blanket determination about how old the children in a household should be before they get a dog.

 

Every family is different.

I agree.

When we brought home our beloved Luke (purchased from a breeder who only bred as a hobby; he real love, and money making business, was in training Champion lines for show and work), our middle boy was only a year old. I am still grateful for that early exposure of pup to human, and human child to pup - they grew up together and as a result, Luke enjoyed nothing more, even when on his deathbed and unable to move from the pain, than the feel of a toddler using him as a jungle gym or a pillow; he would life his face just enough to lick and nudge his beloved human.

 

We have another purebred. Technically he's a rescue, but only because the young girl he was bred for (as a service dog) didn't like animals (she is special needs - autistic). Family turned him over to trainer, trainer reached out. He is a lovely dog, though, with only typical puppy GSD issues. We know his lineage, his parents, his parents' temperament, their general health, etc. Obviously there are always surprises (as proven by Luke - his entire family is healthy and happy, but he died at barely 4 years old).

 

While I am certainly pro-rescue organization and shelter, those are things you simply can't get from a shelter, most of the time. Both times we've tried to adopt from a shelter, it has been a disaster - and dangerous. The shelters were so desperate to get rid of the dogs that in some cases, they outright lied about the dog (age for one thing), or simply didn't vet the dog -vs- home environment well at all. The last shelter dog we had succeeded in attacking our senior IG, and attempted to attack our youngest son - what we thought was a laid back affectionate dog in the shelter, turned out to be a desperately ill dog who, when better physically, was the most nervous, unpredictable animal I've ever seen (and for that matter, even my trainer was completely thrown by him and insisted he never be placed in a home with children again). A friend of a friend found a special needs rescue in NY that wanted him, about a week before I was going to have him euthanized (because the trainer felt unsettled recommending placement/re-homing in a family home).

 

I think we've found that we simply prefer purebreds. I know I might be bashed for it, but it's true. I like knowing expected, general temperament, known health issues that may arise, and lineage. It's important to me. 

 

I definitely agree that it takes time, and money. I belong to an adoptable animal facebook group and I can't count the number of times I've had to bite my tongue and log off because someone will post something like: "ISO a small cute dog. I have no money to pay for the dog (no re-homing fees!), so I need it to be free. My kids want a dog." 

It makes me want to scream. I know not everyone does, or needs to, invest in training, but golly - we spend, just on proper training (because I know I'm busy with little ones, so I need some guidance and a hand with the training), about $180 a month, for once weekly private training - more if we need more training. Good food costs money. Dogs often get into things and need vet care, even not considering NORMAL vet visits and costs. In fact, I almost had a heart attack when our trainer didn't call me back (for our 4 month old GSD, Obi). Turns out she was in the hospital (poor woman!), but I called the GSD training facility we found her through, and the owner of the facility spent about 40 minutes on the phone with me helping me create a breakout-proof crate for our Escape Artist puppy (who managed to break free of it yesterday afternoon, while we out, and eat through a plastic bag with batteries in it - which meant he also jumped ON TOP OF the high kitchen counters!). Puppies are work. A lot of work. Worth it, ime, but not for the faint of heart, lol.

[Pawz4me]

What does everyone think of the advice to ask oneself:

 

"Do you love your dog or do you love to love your dog?"

 

It was in a puppy training book we got from the library a few years back (can't remember which one).  It was basically asking people to consider why they are doing the things they are doing for their dog.  The idea was that loving your dog meant doing things that may not make the dog ecstatically happy at the moment but are better for it in the long run.  Loving to love your dog means doing things that make you happy because it seems to make your pup happy in the short term.  Giving in to the pup and giving it people food is loving to love your dog - it makes us feel good even if it's not so good for the puppy over time.  Setting a boundary and not allowing the dog to have whatever you're having because it's better for the pup in the long run is loving your dog - we don't get that happy feeling from satisfying the dog's immediate want and having the dog then be ecstatically happy but it's better for the dog in the long haul.

 

Just wondered what the Hive thinks. :)

 

I agree somewhat with the general sentiment, but totally disagree with the bolded.  I firmly believe the fresh, minimally processed food I eat is much healthier for my dogs than highly processed, dehydrated crunchy bits made of mystery ingredients (aka most kibble).  So feeding my dogs "people" food is loving them.  Not loving to love them.

[shukriyya]

We adopted a rescue puppy a few years ago. He was the largest in a litter of 11 and came home to us at about three months. Dh is a dog-lover (while I considered myself more of a cat person) and agreed to take on the main care of the dog which he has done with stellar focus though I was more consistent with training. Ds (8 at the time) was somewhat nervous of dogs and we felt that having a dog at home would help him with that among other things. These weren't the only considerations in us getting a dog but they were significant.  We went to puppy-school (doggie ate his graduation diploma :lol: ), dealt with parvo, got towed the first night of puppy school resulting in a $500 fine, had many things chewed up, suffered through house training, shedding and curtailing of our activities for a while because pup couldn't be left alone for very long. These are all very common components of puppy-hood save the towing fee ;). The first year of puppy-hood was hell for me because of my temperament and because dh was able to let the mess and chaos roll off his back while I found it almost impossible to ignore. It was waaaaay more difficult than the toddler years. But gradually our sweet guy grew into the most wonderful 80 lb bear of a dog. He is naturally well trained and restrained and we love him to pieces. He is truly a stellar member of the family.

 

Recently I felt called to get another dog, a female to balance out the all-male energy in the house, a dog who would be my focus. I knew exactly what I wanted, a female, over a year, 30 pounds or under and so I spent weeks visiting the site of the same rescue operation we got our big guy from. And one day there she was. When I went to meet her I realized that I'd already fallen in love with her and she came home with me that day. She's a dream, a lovely little year old mix and has fit beautifully into the family dynamic. Our big guy is such a gentleman with her, letting her play on him, letting her eat from his bowl and generally making space for her. In turn she is so happy to see him when he's back from his walk with dh. It's a great situation but I knew from experience that I didn't want a puppy again, that I wanted a smaller dog with certain qualities. I did my homework based on previous experience and that was key.

 

There are certain breeds I adore and would love to experience owning but when it comes down to the 'love' factor all the rescue dogs we've had have taken up residence in our hearts just as beautifully as any purebred might.

[hornblower]

There are certain breeds I adore and would love to experience owning but when it comes down to the 'love' factor all the rescue dogs we've had have taken up residence in our hearts just as beautifully as any purebred might.

 

plus owning a rescue & owning a purebred are not mutually exclusive :)

 

I own 3 dogs, all rescues: 2 are mutts, 1 is a purebred field English Setter 

 

Purebred dogs come up in shelters, through general rescues & through breed specific rescues.

[Dicentra]

I think while the sentiment in the quotes is good, the subsequent para falls dangerously close to the 'look out you'll spoil your dog, they need leaders, pack, domimance!' cliff of unsubstantiated, unscientific dog rearing mumbo jumbo. 

 

Whether you give your dog people food or not is completely & totally irrelevant.

 

Teaching your dog good manners to enable it to be a good member of the family & society is what's important.  Reinforcing begging is something I don't like. But I like to teach my dogs to beg on cue :)

 

See what I get from that quote is something completely different.

 

Because I see people who drag unhappy dogs to agility or to parks or to other activities the dog doesn't enjoy. I see people who keep petting dogs who don't want to be petted.

I also see people ignoring their dogs' needs for exercise, for play, for mental games, for companionship because it's not convenient for the human or because they have some rigid code of what living with dog is supposed to look like. 

 

So yes, love the dog, respect the dog, work as a team, listen when the dog is saying 'this isn't for me' & find stuff to do together that make both of you happy is where I go with that quote.

 

 

I agree somewhat with the general sentiment, but totally disagree with the bolded.  I firmly believe the fresh, minimally processed food I eat is much healthier for my dogs than highly processed, dehydrated crunchy bits made of mystery ingredients (aka most kibble).  So feeding my dogs "people" food is loving them.  Not loving to love them.

 

This may be my bad. :)  I may be mis-remembering the example they used.  I think by "people food", it was more along the lines of feeding the dog junk food (high salt, high fat foods like chips, etc.).  I can go back and delete the example if it would be better.  I was wanting to help clarify what the quote meant but may have succeeded in muddying the waters instead. :)

[shukriyya]

plus owning a rescue & owning a purebred are not mutually exclusive :)

 

I own 3 dogs, all rescues: 2 are mutts, 1 is a purebred field English Setter 

 

Purebred dogs come up in shelters, through general rescues & through breed specific rescues.

 

Good point, and one I didn't consider which makes me realize that the dog him or herself rather than the breed have been more important to me when considering a canine companion. Interesting. Cats though, I'm a Siamese lover as that's what I grew up with, and I would go the route of Siamese rescue if I were ever to consider a cat again.

[Pawz4me]

This may be my bad. :)  I may be mis-remembering the example they used.  I think by "people food", it was more along the lines of feeding the dog junk food (high salt, high fat foods like chips, etc.).  I can go back and delete the example if it would be better.  I was wanting to help clarify what the quote meant but may have succeeded in muddying the waters instead. :)

 

I probably shouldn't have used your post to get on my pet food soapbox. ;)

 

Like I said, I do agree in general.  I'm no doubt risking offending someone by comparing pets and kids here, but -- We all know as parents that sometimes even when we want to give in to our kids and spoil them a bit with something it's probably in their long term best interest to not do so.  And it's the same with dogs.  But just like with kids, you can give in with your dog once in awhile.  Maybe not a puppy in training, but a well trained adult dog won't be ruined by the occasional snuggle on the couch he's not usually allowed on, or by giving him a couple of your potato chips or whatever.  It's all about balance.

[lllll]

..

[Spy Car]

I probably shouldn't have used your post to get on my pet food soapbox. ;)

 

Like I said, I do agree in general.  I'm no doubt risking offending someone by comparing pets and kids here, but -- We all know as parents that sometimes even when we want to give in to our kids and spoil them a bit with something it's probably in their long term best interest to not do so.  And it's the same with dogs.  But just like with kids, you can give in with your dog once in awhile.  Maybe not a puppy in training, but a well trained adult dog won't be ruined by the occasional snuggle on the couch he's not usually allowed on, or by giving him a couple of your potato chips or whatever.  It's all about balance.

 

 

I made you a thread :)

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/533754-so-a-soap-box-for-pawz-or-lets-talk-about-alternative-dog-nutrition/

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

...the Humane Society estimates that over 1 million dogs are euthanized each year for lack of a decent home.

 

Stepping down off of soapbox.

 

The "Humane Society" of the United States does next-to-nothing to lessen euthanasia rates in this country, nor does its money go to supporting local shelters.

 

People may be confused because sometimes local shelters and rescues will include the term "humane society" in their names, but it has nothing to do with HSUS. HSUS runs no shelters. They spend 1% of their fundraising on shelters.

 

The HSUS recieves D grades from charity watchdog organizations. With is a fundraising cash-cow that spends lavishly on its top-executives but not on animal welfare.

 

HSUS has a very radical agenda (similar to PETA). They are not what one might expect.

 

Steeping down off my soapbox.

 

Bill

[hornblower]

yeah, but putting HSUS, & PETA and ASPCA & all the politics aside - an awful lot of dogs & cats are killed in shelters every year.

 

We DO have a real pet overpopulation problem.

[Spy Car]

yeah, but putting HSUS, & PETA and ASPCA & all the politics aside - an awful lot of dogs & cats are killed in shelters every year.

 

We DO have a real pet overpopulation problem.

 

True enough. I'm just not a fan of organizations that cynically enrich themselves, while doing nothing to actually solve the problem. 

 

That burns me.

 

Bill

[Melinda in VT]

When we bought our current dog, we looked in our local shelter. However, they had very few dogs that they would allow us to adopt because we had kids under 12, and the few they would let us adopt were hyper lab mixes.

 

We knew we needed an easy dog, so we went to a breeder. Like a previous poster, our breeder would probably be considered a backyard breeder, but we were able to meet both calm, friendly parents, and we got a mellow dog who has been a delight for the past 10 years.

[Melinda in VT]

I find it interesting that so many of you have been denied adoption because you have kids. We got our dog from the local SPCA with all six kids in tow. Never once did I get the hint of feeling that they wouldn't adopt to us because we had kids.

 

Not sure that's a good thing, or a bad thing. (???)

 

Or maybe it's just because my family is so stinkin' awesome, and it shows. (LOL)

In our case, I suspect it's locational. Families with kids are a smaller percentage of the population here, so they lose fewer potential pet owners with that rule.

[Ottakee]

While I agree that people should plan ahead and think through the whole getting a dog thing, I don't necessarily think that you should not get a pet just because circumstance might change in a few years.

 

Yes, grandma is older and might need a care facility in 4 years, but why not let her enjoy a rescued pet and let the pet LIVE and have a good life with her for 4 years and then go from there.  The other alternative might be to just have grandma have no pet and be lonely and have a dog that might have been a good match be put down.

 

We were actually denied a dog (or any dog) from our local humane society as we are rural and don't have a fenced in run/yard for the dog and the dog would not be on a leash all of the time.  I was qualified through the state to adopt 3 children and foster over 100 others..........but deemed unfit for a dog that would likely be put down in the next few days/weeks.

 

We ended up getting our current dog from a shelter that advertised her as a farm dog. She is an Australian shepherd mix and LOVES being outside with the animals.  At home she is never fenced in or on a leash.  Over time she has warmed up to us and is now inside with us most of the time unless we are outside doing chores, horseback riding, etc.  It took her months though to feel safe enough to enter the house..........and now she likes to lay on the leather couch.

[AimeeM]

I find it interesting that so many of you have been denied adoption because you have kids. We got our dog from the local SPCA with all six kids in tow. Never once did I get the hint of feeling that they wouldn't adopt to us because we had kids.

 

Not sure that's a good thing, or a bad thing. (???)

 

Or maybe it's just because my family is so stinkin' awesome, and it shows. (LOL)

Well, it's the breed specific rescues in my area that will not adopt to families with young children.

The shelters will. The shelters also, however, did essentially NOTHING to vet families, or to consider which dogs would be best with which family, unless they were one of the "back area dogs" (the ones with known behaviour problems)... that's probably why they have a no-return policy, after 30 days, unless the dog can pass a temperament test.

[wintermom]

Something not mentioned previously here, but can be a wonderful option for families, couples or single adults/older teens, is fostering a puppy or breeding dog for a guide/assistance dog organization. The benefits are huge.

 

- You get a young puppy, older puppy, or adult dog that has been bred for temperament and health.

- You get wonderful support with obedience classes, home visits from a supervisor, food, vet care, supplies and boarding when you go on holidays.

- You take part in the raising and socialization of a potential working dog that can positively change a person's life.

- If something isn't working out well, or your situation changes, the organization takes the dog and finds another home for it.

 

With a breeding dog, you keep it for up to 8 years. For a puppy, you keep it until it is ready for it's formal training - usually at around 2 years of age. If it isn't suitable to become a guide/assistance dog, you may have the option to purchase. 

 

It is tough to have the dog/puppy leave your home, but there are always more puppies and dogs to foster or board for long and/or shorter term.

 

 

Our family had 2 Wheaton Terriers for 14 years, until they died of old age. We began fostering guide dog puppies two years ago. It has been such a rich learning experience, as well as a triumph to see our first puppy make it through the formal training program. Along with our own puppy-in-training that goes with us most places, we have had opportunities to short-term board young and older puppies, and breeding dogs. 

 

My dd is planning on becoming a Puppy Walker and foster her own puppy when she is old enough, and hopefully it will be the first step in her career working with dogs. We never would have realised all the volunteering opportunities had we not explored this more.

 

Anyway, I just thought I'd put the word out there as there is always a need for families willing to offer a loving home for these wonderful dogs. 

 

[Splash]

I've done rescue and purebreed from excellent breeder.  We currently have a Portuguese Water Dog puppy.  He was my 50th birthday present and filled the whole left by the death of my older PWD.  I love him.  He is a happy, funny, busy, energetic lovely dog.  I'm thankful there are breeders like Lana that I can count on receiving a lovely dog.

 

  Before kids we had a boxer mix from the pound and a lab/rotweiller mix? from a box outside the grocery store.  Both were lovely dogs though the boxer had multiple health issues through the years along with horrible hip dysplasia.   We have several children with multiple allergies and the allergist only approved a handful of dogs for us to even consider.  Some breeders, rescues and the humane society  wouldn't even consider my family since we had young children they were 3,5,7,and 9 when we got Splash.  We didnt react to the PWD and liked their happy temperment so that is the one we chose.  No regrets.  I'm sure I drive my cousin crazy.  She is a volunteer and fosters puppies all the time.  Currently she has six dogs in her home.  All rescues.

[zimom]

Something not mentioned previously here, but can be a wonderful option for families, couples or single adults/older teens, is fostering a puppy or breeding dog for a guide/assistance dog organization. The benefits are huge.

 

- You get a young puppy, older puppy, or adult dog that has been bred for temperament and health.

- You get wonderful support with obedience classes, home visits from a supervisor, food, vet care, supplies and boarding when you go on holidays.

- You take part in the raising and socialization of a potential working dog that can positively change a person's life.

- If something isn't working out well, or your situation changes, the organization takes the dog and finds another home for it.

 

With a breeding dog, you keep it for up to 8 years. For a puppy, you keep it until it is ready for it's formal training - usually at around 2 years of age. If it isn't suitable to become a guide/assistance dog, you may have the option to purchase. 

 

It is tough to have the dog/puppy leave your home, but there are always more puppies and dogs to foster or board for long and/or shorter term.

 

 

Our family had 2 Wheaton Terriers for 14 years, until they died of old age. We began fostering guide dog puppies two years ago. It has been such a rich learning experience, as well as a triumph to see our first puppy make it through the formal training program. Along with our own puppy-in-training that goes with us most places, we have had opportunities to short-term board young and older puppies, and breeding dogs. 

 

My dd is planning on becoming a Puppy Walker and foster her own puppy when she is old enough, and hopefully it will be the first step in her career working with dogs. We never would have realised all the volunteering opportunities had we not explored this more.

 

Anyway, I just thought I'd put the word out there as there is always a need for families willing to offer a loving home for these wonderful dogs. 

 My daughter has a wonderful service dog from a very reputable organization.  (see avatar)   Without 'puppy raisers' they could not do the work they do AND provide these dogs free to the recipients.   We remain in close contact with her dog's puppy raisers and they are now one of my daughter's biggest supporters.

 

Although these dogs are specifically bred to be service dogs, and have incredible personalities, there is still a pretty high percentage that do not make the cut as this organization only graduates the very, very best dogs.  Dogs that do not graduate then may return to the puppy raisers if they wish.

[wintermom]

 My daughter has a wonderful service dog from a very reputable organization.  (see avatar)   Without 'puppy raisers' they could not do the work they do AND provide these dogs free to the recipients.   We remain in close contact with her dog's puppy raisers and they are now one of my daughter's biggest supporters.

 

Although these dogs are specifically bred to be service dogs, and have incredible personalities, there is still a pretty high percentage that do not make the cut as this organization only graduates the very, very best dogs.  Dogs that do not graduate then may return to the puppy raisers if they wish.

 

It's great to hear about the positive effect service dogs have for the lives of the people they work with! 

 

It's true that not all puppies are suitable to become service dogs. And there are a lot of different reasons for this. The puppy raisers don't always keep the dogs they work with, so there is often a waiting list if people want to purchase a "career change" dog. It's another way to finacially support the organization. They do require that there is someone at home for major portions of the day, so as not to leave the dog alone all day and completely change the way of life they've known.

[zimom]

It's great to hear about the positive effect service dogs have for the lives of the people they work with!

 

It's true that not all puppies are suitable to become service dogs. And there are a lot of different reasons for this. The puppy raisers don't always keep the dogs they work with, so there is often a waiting list if people want to purchase a "career change" dog. It's another way to finacially support the organization. They do require that there is someone at home for major portions of the day, so as not to leave the dog alone all day and completely change the way of life they've known.

Not trying to hijack this thread, but this is one of the main reasons why someone should run, not walk away from a person/group that tells them they are going to train a puppy for them as a service dog. These are also the same groups that charge them tens of thousands of dollars. Not all dogs are meant to be service dogs. Even organizations that have been around for decades, specifically breed for the traits needed, accept that only about 20% of those puppies make 'the cut." Off my soapbox.

[VeteranMom]

I have nothing against someone who wants to go the breeder route.  Most people I know who go that route do so due to allergies to dogs.

I, personally, prefer to have a rescue dog.  I got both of my dogs through my state's prison rescue. 

We all go through stages in life.  Sometimes, we get a dog and it's a good idea at the time.  5 years later, it might not fit into our lifestyle as well.  It's hard to see 5-10 years into our future.  Most pet owners I know do their best, though.

[Joanne]

. Most pet owners I know do their best, though.

 

That is one reason I started this thread. I did my "best" but I did not have an adequate or informed understanding - even as a grown woman who is informed on many things.

 

I grew up with dogs and my parents had a casual, relaxed style. It seemed to "work". Or maybe it was just what was done "then" but it is inadequate today.

[Alice]

That is one reason I started this thread. I did my "best" but I did not have an adequate or I formed understanding - even as a grown woman who is informed on many things.

 

I grew up with dogs and my parents had a casual, relaxed style. It seemed to "work". Or maybe it was just what was done "then" but it is inadequate today.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I'm not sure what this means. Why would what your parents did not be ok today of it seemed to work then? You started the thread by saying "a conversation about what it means to be a dog owner in America in the 2000's". I'm not sure what that means either. 

 

We just got a dog this summer. We're first time dog owners. I'm not sure I would ever have gotten a dog if I had read some of the recent dog-related threads before we adopted her. That's not because we have any problems with her. We love her, she fits into the family and she seems happy. No issues. But the threads lately would have scared me off had I read them 5 months ago. Now they have me vaguely anxious that we're doing something wrong because it doesn't seem as hard as maybe it should. 

[SKL]

My kids and I are all great with dogs. I had mutts as a kid. Like many kids, mine want a dog of their own. However, I won't do it because we don't have time to treat a dog right. I think dogs need to be trained, walked, groomed, and provided with a nice place to hang out. I know I can't commit to all of it, and my kids can't either.

 

My kids hang out often with my sister who breeds GSDs. I call it "getting their dog fix." They have helped with everything, from watching puppies being born, to visiting families long after they bought the dogs. That's going to have to be good enough.

 

I agree with the person who said there is nothing wrong with buying from a responsible breeder vs. a shelter. The thing people need to fight is the number of animals who are in need of homes due to owners who neither want puppies nor want their dogs to be neutered/spayed. And also those who treat their animals so badly that they cannot be cared for in a normal home.

 

I love the idea of borrowing a (carefully chosen) shelter dog for a day to give the dog a bit of normalcy.

[Joanne]

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I'm not sure what this means. Why would what your parents did not be ok today of it seemed to work then? You started the thread by saying "a conversation about what it means to be a dog owner in America in the 2000's". I'm not sure what that means either. 

 

I don't remember my parents ever spending time training, supervising, teaching, finding "work" and play for our dogs. They just were. I don't remember vet visits beyond emergencies. I don't remember needing breed specific information in terms of care, feeding, socialization. Heck, I don't remember socialization being an issue at all.  We just had dogs.

 

I've read the most about pet ownership here, but that is more a function of this having been my most consistent forum over the last 15+ years - not because I think the topic is limited to here.

 

There are books, sites, magazines, stores and a whole industry that has emerged in terms of pet - especially dog - ownership. None of this existed when I was growing up (60's, 70's and 80's).

 

It IS different than I knew, and I was not ready or prepared to be what is considered today to be a responsible dog owner.