s/o A Soap-box for Pawz (or Let's Talk About Alternative Dog Nutrition)

[Spy Car]

Since dog topics are hot at the moment, why not one more?

 

Not feeding Fido kibble or something out of a can? A Soap-box for you (us) :D

 

Bill
 

[hornblower]

I have 2 on raw & 1 on kibble so I can hop & on off each soapbox :D

[Pawz4me]

I only have a minute right now, so the most important thing  -- "People" food is NOT bad for your dog.  It's not.

 

Don't let the pet food manufacturers' brainwash you.

 

I'm sure I'll have more to say later, when I have more time. :D

[Sdel]

Three dogs on raw after one became diabetic and the diabetic kibble was literally killing her.  The cats are hold outs though.  Two I think I could convert...the other one won't even eat can chicken or tuna (yes, she is crazy). 

 

Stefanie

 

 

[Spy Car]

In large measure, I became aware of raw feeding via this forum during an extended interregnum between my previous dog (a Weimaraner) and our current (just turned 7 month old) Vizsla. I was alternately intrigued, scared, and skeptical.

 

I was not "sold" on Raw when we decided to add a canine to the family. But I looked at every other alternative and found them wanting. Especially kibble.

 

So from the time "Chester" arrived home he's enjoyed natural meat, bones, organs, connective tissue, green-tripe, eggs, whole-fish, and other assorted animal parts. 

 

​The dog has the whitest teeth I've ever seen, is hard and lean, and has a coat that looks like it belongs on a vibrantly heathy wild-animal.

 

I'm absolutely sold on raw. Mrs Spy Car, however, sometimes wonders if I've lost my mind on those occasions when she is bold enough to venture into the "dog fridge,"  as it (admittedly) looks like a charnel house sometimes :D

 

Bill

 

 

 

 

[Ewe Mama]

We just converted to raw successfully with two of our dogs. The holdout is our 2.3 lb chihuahua. Even a chicken wing is bigger than she can handle. Our lab had very bad breath and she now has clean smelling breath and her teeth are already healthier looking. I wish we hadn't waited so long.

[Hen]

I'm tempted by raw...but holding out. I have friends who feed their two dogs raw chicken, my biggest doubt is what about all the antibiotics that chickens are given?  Is there a problem with dogs being fed raw chicken with all the antibiotics?  If I were wealthy, I would feed my dog raw chicken from whole foods, but we couldn't afford it.

 

my dog is allergic to rice for sure, and I think eggs  She gets a premium kibble/canned and also homemade sweet-potato food. 

 

the cat, kibble/canned and hunts actively, which is why he has never been sick, I'm thinking.  Raw makes sense, I just don't see how to do it on a limited budget and while not using eggs or rice.

 

[Farrar]

I have zero dog in this fight (because I don't have a dog) but they were talking about this on The Animal House last weekend (an NPR show about animals) and their expert vet guy was basically like, there's zero hard evidence for the raw diet and I don't really recommend it... but it works for many dogs with nutrition issues. I was like, um...?

[kewb]

I do a mix of raw and high quality kibble. Best of both worlds.

I buy him premade patties at my poultry farm. I have tried giving hom raw chicken parts and he just plays with them.

[hornblower]

I'm tempted by raw...but holding out. I have friends who feed their two dogs raw chicken, my biggest doubt is what about all the antibiotics that chickens are given?  Is there a problem with dogs being fed raw chicken with all the antibiotics?  If I were wealthy, I would feed my dog raw chicken from whole foods, but we couldn't afford it.

 

my dog is allergic to rice for sure, and I think eggs  She gets a premium kibble/canned and also homemade sweet-potato food. 

 

the cat, kibble/canned and hunts actively, which is why he has never been sick, I'm thinking.  Raw makes sense, I just don't see how to do it on a limited budget and while not using eggs or rice.

 

Unless you're feeding an organic kibble, the dog is getting the antibiotics, & whatever else they gave the meat animals, anyway.

 

Raw fed dogs usually don't get rice. Eggs are optional.

 

IMO, it's unwise to feed exclusively one protein unless there are huge allergy/protein insensitivities. You'd want to rotate through several proteins.

[Pawz4me]

I'm not sold on a raw diet. Our old dog ate home cooked meals, the new puppy gets a mixture. Her kibble is called Taste of the Wild. She also gets plain yogurt with apples, and brown rice/turkey/green beans. I read that a dog's shiny coat depends on fat content, which can be found in cooked, raw, and certain kibble. Our last dog had the shiniest fur I've ever seen.

 

I'm not sold on raw, either.  I don't have anything against it, I'm just not convinced it's better than a cooked diet.

 

My dogs currently get a bit of kibble and a bit of home-cooked.  Tonight they had the same thing we did -- Baked chicken and green beans.  When my older dog passes on I plan on moving totally to a home-cooked diet for my Shih Tzu.

[hornblower]

I'm not sold on raw, either.  I don't have anything against it, I'm just not convinced it's better than a cooked diet.

 

My dogs currently get a bit of kibble and a bit of home-cooked.  Tonight they had the same thing we did -- Baked chicken and green beans.  When my older dog passes on I plan on moving totally to a home-cooked diet for my Shih Tzu.

 

I don't think raw is better than home cooked and I don't think either is better than all kibble (or canned).  Any can work well. 

 

I feel odd. Usually I have really, really, really strong opinions about all dog things LOL :lol:  This is one issue where I see lots of different options. I feel strange. :laugh:

 

 

There's no way I'm doing home cooked for my dogs because I barely cook for people. I detest cooking. It would have to be a rare dog with really odd presenting symptoms that I couldn't alleviate any other way before I'd start cooking for a dog.....

 

 

 

[hornblower]

Oh wait, I do have a couple strong feeding opinions:

1. Every dog, regardless of diet, should gnaw on raw, appropriately sized, recreational bones.  That goes a long way to dealing with the grimy teeth issue.

 

2. Every dog, regardless of diet, should receive an omega supplement such as salmon oil.  Coats, joints, overall immunity...
 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

I have zero dog in this fight (because I don't have a dog) but they were talking about this on The Animal House last weekend (an NPR show about animals) and their expert vet guy was basically like, there's zero hard evidence for the raw diet and I don't really recommend it... but it works for many dogs with nutrition issues. I was like, um...?

 

It's unlikely there will ever be any hard evidence for a raw diet.  Who would fund the studies?

[hornblower]

It's unlikely there will ever be any hard evidence for a raw diet.  Who would fund the studies?

 

Well certainly not the colleges which are all funded by the pet food manufacturers.... :glare:  The fact that veterinary schools accept funding from these companies really bothers me. It's such a conflict of interest.

[Pawz4me]

I don't think raw is better than home cooked and I don't think either is better than all kibble (or canned).  Any can work well. 

 

I feel odd. Usually I have really, really, really strong opinions about all dog things LOL :lol:  This is one issue where I see lots of different options. I feel strange. :laugh:

 

There's no way I'm doing home cooked for my dogs because I barely cook for people. I detest cooking. It would have to be a rare dog with really odd presenting symptoms that I couldn't alleviate any other way before I'd start cooking for a dog.....

 

 

 

 

It's not hard.  Trust me, 'cause I don't particularly like to cook, either.

 

I throw a big bunch of chicken in the crock pot every couple of weeks.  When it's done I shred it up and freeze most of it.

I brown some hamburger for variety, and keep some canned fish on hand. And eggs, of course.  Then all I have to do is mix in some of whatever veggies we're having.  If I weren't feeding them a little kibble I'd toss in some dried ground eggshells for calcium.  It takes very little effort, really.

[Sdel]

Well certainly not the colleges which are all funded by the pet food manufacturers.... :glare: The fact that veterinary schools accept funding from these companies really bothers me. It's such a conflict of interest.

Its the same with the regular vets. I can't tell you how many vets have complimented my dogs coats and teeth only to discourage raw once they find out. Even for the cat they discouraged it.....but what do they think the cat was eating while he was feral?

[skimomma]

I do not have a dog but I do have cats.  Two cats.  Two cats that were in very bad health four years ago.  They ate very "high end" cat food.  We switched to raw food based on info I gleaned from various sources in an attempt to end the daily medication regimen we were subjected to.  It was inconvenient for us but absolute torture for the cats.  We were dubious to say the least and our vet was 100% against it.  The difference has been shocking.  I now have two elderly cats who have healthy coats, all health issues gone, no meds, and who act like kittens.  You would never guess their ages.  I am sold.

[hornblower]

It's not hard.  Trust me, 'cause I don't particularly like to cook, either.

 

 

yeah, & if I had to, I would. I have a friend who cooks for her lab & I grew up with that style of feeding. My mom cooked for all our dogs until her last gsd, which the vet convinced her to feed kibble. Now she has a cavalier and feeds it raw. She went on a trip to California recently & is experimenting with freeze dried raw while on the trip....

 

Thing is, I have 3 big dogs. My small guy is 50 lbs, the other ones are 80lbs each. I'd be cooking constantly in industrial size vats. It's still easier to open a large package of raw (i use commercially prepared raw for most meals & supplement with whole prey, edible bones & recreational bones) & give it to them...    Right now the only thing I have to do is remember to move things from freezer into their drawer in the fridge.  Some days, even that seems beyond me. Thank goodness my dogs seem to think frozen meals are popsicles LOL

[hornblower]

I do not have a dog but I do have cats.  Two cats.  Two cats that were in very bad health four years ago.  They ate very "high end" cat food.  We switched to raw food based on info I gleaned from various sources in an attempt to end the daily medication regimen we were subjected to.  It was inconvenient for us but absolute torture for the cats.  We were dubious to say the least and our vet was 100% against it.  The difference has been shocking.  I now have two elderly cats who have healthy coats, all health issues gone, no meds, and who act like kittens.  You would never guess their ages.  I am sold.

 

wow, that's great that you got them to switch! I tried to switch my cat a couple times  & failed.  I do think for cats it's way more imperative to either be on raw or on canned. No kibble for cats!

 

[Spy Car]

I'm not sold on raw, either.  I don't have anything against it, I'm just not convinced it's better than a cooked diet.

 

 

 

What do you do about getting adequate bone in the diet with cooked meals? 

 

Getting the right ratio of raw edible bone seems vital for health and maintaining the right calcium/phosphorus balance in a dog's diet (as meat alone is imbalanced).

 

One can't feed cooked bones (as they splinter) where soft raw bones (not recreational bones) provide necessarily nutrients and "balance" to the diet. How do cooked diets deal with that?

 

Bill

[JustEm]

For those who feed raw, care to share your mixtures and the approx cost per month(weight of dog would be useful too.) I'm considering raw but just not mentally their yet. I am all for it its just the added hastle of not being able to just buy a bag and scoop. That may sound really lazy but right now I'm having a hard enough time finding the energy to feed my family properly so the dogs are on the back burner until after this baby comes and I'm used to a new family routine.

[Pawz4me]

What do you do about getting adequate bone in the diet with cooked meals?

 

Getting the right ratio of raw edible bone seems vital for health and maintaining the right calcium/phosphorus balance in a dog's diet (as meat alone is imbalanced).

 

One can't feed cooked bones (as they splinter) where soft raw bones (not recreational bones) provide necessarily nutrients and "balance" to the diet. How do cooked diets deal with that?

 

Bill

When I go to all home cooked I'll use dried ground eggshells for calcium. Right now I'm feeding enough kibble that I don't worry about adding in extra calcium.

[Sdel]

For those who feed raw, care to share your mixtures and the approx cost per month(weight of dog would be useful too.) I'm considering raw but just not mentally their yet. I am all for it its just the added hastle of not being able to just buy a bag and scoop. That may sound really lazy but right now I'm having a hard enough time finding the energy to feed my family properly so the dogs are on the back burner until after this baby comes and I'm used to a new family routine.

 

I usually feed a rotation of turkey necks, chicken leg quarters, beef/pork hearts, salmon filet not for human consumption (has bones all in it, Atlantic only), green tripe, liver and kidney all bought by the case.  If I find a good sale from my grocery I might buy some treat items like pork/beef ribs or pig ears.  When they are on sale I buy whole turkeys and occasionally I'll pick up a hog head from the ethnic grocery store.  The local asian grocery is the best place to buy whole fish like mackerel or sardine or other unusual items.  I buy from a service where I place an order online and they have a delivery point for our location.  The last time I bought I spent between $300 - $400, and with strict measuring, it last 2 months.  Some things, like organs, last longer since you don't need to feed as much.

 

There is a spreadsheet you can find via google that will calculate everything by day or week; all you have to do is input the dog's weight.  I feed 3 Labradors weighing 115, 90, and 80 lbs.  I think it works out to around 7 lbs of food per day.

 

Stefanie

[Spy Car]

When I go to all home cooked I'll use dried ground eggshells for calcium. Right now I'm feeding enough kibble that I don't worry about adding in extra calcium.

That seems like it would take an awful lot of eggshells. It also removes what I'm coming to believe is an under-appreciated activity, that being the active crunching of raw/soft edible bone.

 

Chewing raw edible bone cleans the teeth, provides a surprisingly great workout for jaw, facial, and neck muscles, and (from my observation) seems to have a salutory effect on the canine mind. Just yesterday my Vizsla pup got a special treat (a lamb leg from the elbow to the hoof) that he chomped on for a couple of hours. He is naturally a high energy guy, but when I took him to Obedience class last night he was surprisingly "chill." Others in the class, who are used to his puppy energy, noticed how relaxed he was. I really believe it was "the big chew."

 

And even the "small chews" are keeping the teeth sparkling white.

 

Not having edible bone (and not just recreational bones) would be a loss in doing a cooked diet from my perspective. It's in their nature after all, yes?

 

Bill

[Sdel]

Oops....kitty on the keyboard.

 

[Ellie]

Not sold on raw.

 

I feed my cats and dogs Innova, which is made with human-quality ingredients.

 

Our vet in San Jose used to be Dr. Wendell Belfield. When we first started going to him around 1987, he would not recommend any manufactured pet foods; instead, he offered a recipe for making your own. It was nasty. I gagged when I was cooking it for my kitties, and they wouldn't eat it, so I gave that up, lol. Dr. Belfield published articles on his research into manufactured pet foods, and had documented evidence of animals who had died because the meat in the prepared food they had eaten had been euthanized, and there was enough of the drugs in the food to cause death. Here's one of his articles.

 

There's a company in San Jose called An-Jan which sold food for dogs and cats and other critters. The owner took his pets to Dr. Belfield, and Dr. Belfield would give him grief about selling that stuff. Finally, the owner decided to start his own company, NaturaPet. Dr. Belfield recommended Innova (but he didn't sell it--we had to go to An-Jan). 

 

So we've used Innova (and Evo, the higher protein, higher fat, lower carb version of Innova) ever since. We have seen a remarkable improvement in the coats of every single animal that has come to us, even those whose previous owners had fed them premium foods.

[Spy Car]

For those who feed raw, care to share your mixtures and the approx cost per month(weight of dog would be useful too.) I'm considering raw but just not mentally their yet. I am all for it its just the added hastle of not being able to just buy a bag and scoop. That may sound really lazy but right now I'm having a hard enough time finding the energy to feed my family properly so the dogs are on the back burner until after this baby comes and I'm used to a new family routine.

My routine (and cost structure) is very similar to Sdel's. Items like beef heart, chicken heart, chicken quarters or drumsticks, chicken and turkey necks, gizzards, and feet are economical and nutritious. As are the vital organ parts, like liver and kidney.

 

I also feed a lot of whole "oily" fish, like mackerel and sardines. I can often get these for $1 to $1.50 a pound on sale, and I stock up and freeze.

 

Asian, latino, and other "ethnic" markets tend to be helpful sources.

 

Also like Sdel, I use a butcher that delivers some of the speciality items that add variety. Things like green tripe (I scored some bison and lamb green tripe on the last delivery to add to my stash of cow tripe (the excitement of which is hard to understand from "the outside"). I also got a case of stunningly beautiful (and cheap) elk meat, a case of beef cartilage, pig ears, ground pig stomach, lamb and pig feet (fur on), and duck feet. Who's getting hungry???

 

Anyway, it doesn't need to be so exotic. But for many it becomes a sort of quest to find good parts (many of which have fallen out of human fashion to eat, to our detriment) at a good price for the dog. The supply chain will vary depending on location. Some people hunt, others have relationships with ranchers. I hit "ethnic markets" and use a cost-effective speciality butcher.

 

Many of the items I feed the dog are a dollar a pound (or less) and rarely do I spend over $2 a pound. That's less than feeding so-called high end kibble, if one doesn't favor in the time involved. And it does take time. But for me the satisfaction of watching my dog eat food that is providing optimal nutrition (and seeing the pay-off in his obvious well-being) is worth the time investment for me. I won't try to kid anyone that doesn't take work (and a spare freezer).

 

But when people see my dog they know something very different going on there (even if they don't know what). And I'm really happy I can make it happen for him, and without busting the bank.

 

Bill

[Sdel]

I am totally sold on raw. I had a dog become diabetic.  After her spay and all the medical related clippings she required I had a bald dog.  She was skin and bones after coming out of her crisis.  The vets all recommended diabetic kibble (which is 50% corn btw) and she just kept losing weight, wasn't re-growing hair, and I was constantly having to increase her insulin.  As a last ditch effort I started giving her raw chicken and she gained 4 lbs in less than a month, started re-growing her coat, and I cut her insulin from over 15 units to under 7.  I haven't looked back at kibble.  Unfortunately she had another diabetic incident only two months later, and that, along with other issues, I chose to put her down.  She had gone blind and she was rapidly becoming a dangerous dog. 

 

Stefanie

[Spy Car]

I'm totally sold on raw too.

 

I'm seeing demonstrably vibrant health. Clear eyes, sparklingly white teeth, a glistening coat, great energy, small poops, lean-hard muscles, a taut stomach with none of the typical abdominal bloating one commonly sees with kibble-fed dogs (to the point one comes to accept mild distention as "normal"). It isn't difficult to see the difference it makes.

 

We met up with both a litter-mate and a half-sibling of our dog recently, and the differences in condition were striking (and we're not talking about neglected dogs).

 

And the other day I was at a dog class and we had a newcomer goin us with an Irish Setter, which I greeted (having had one as a boy). I immediately said to the woman-owner, "raw-fed huh?" She seemed surprised for a moment, like "how did I know?," but I really wasn't hard to tell.

 

Bill

[hornblower]

I feed a commercially prepared ground for their main meals, plus usually once a week some RMB's (raw meaty bones like lamb necks, chicken backs, turkey necks) which are edible.  Their ground mixtures include bones & organ meats & veg (highly controversial, I know LOL).  I also rotate through canned salmon (not raw because of parasites) , liver, tripe & occasionally herring.  How much you feed really depends on the dog. My 80lb & my 50lb dog eat the same amount. The 50lb is just way more active.  Commercially prepared raw can be more expensive than doing it "on your own" but it sure makes things easier.  I buy from several companies I trust, usually once a month or every 6 weeks & just stock up the freezer.
 

My kibble guy is currently on Acana, used to be on Orijen. Both are made by same company, both are sourced with Canadian ingredients (not imported from Asia) and have their own plant so no cross contamination issues as happened with a bunch of the the recalls & esp the Menu foods recall, when people discovered that so many brands were all made in the same manufacturing facility.

+ Recreational bones for everyone (actually, kibble man usually gets an rmb too. He's ok with them if not too frequent & if I wash them for him. He has a damaged gut & is ultra sensitive to any bacterial residue but I found if I wash his bones for him, he does fine.)

[hornblower]

oh the POOP! I love raw fed poop!  :D

[Sdel]

I'm not sold on raw, either.  I don't have anything against it, I'm just not convinced it's better than a cooked diet.

 

My dogs currently get a bit of kibble and a bit of home-cooked.  Tonight they had the same thing we did -- Baked chicken and green beans.  When my older dog passes on I plan on moving totally to a home-cooked diet for my Shih Tzu.

 

I chose raw over home cooked because I do not believe that dogs need to be eating veggies. I chose to use prey model because I have yet to find a pre-made raw that doesn't include fruits and veggies, as well as you lose a lot of the cognitive benefits for the dog in gnawing.  I also think that the frozen raws get kind of gross after thawing.  Nothing about a dog's teeth structure indicates that veggies would be on their natural diet.  However, on the cats, I've had to learn to settle because all the grain free kibbles and cans include veggies and fruits and I can't get the cats on board with raw. 

 

I think for a lot of people the idea that a dog is a carnivore is a disconnect because most people don't actually see dogs hunt and eat prey these days, unlike cats who are still generally prized as "mousers" and seen actively hunting.  The one thing I've noticed most about my dogs since they started on raw....they have stopped playing with prey and have started using pack tactics to hunt and eat on their own.  At the last place we had a small turtle infested pond.  One dog would swim out and grab a turtle and another dog would make a meal out of it.  Same with rabbits and the occasional cat.  

 

Stefanie

[Sdel]

I'm totally sold on raw too.

 

I'm seeing demonstrably vibrant health. Clear eyes, sparklingly white teeth, a glistening coat, great energy, small poops, lean-hard muscles, a taut stomach with none of the typical abdominal bloating he commonly sees with kibble-fed dogs (to the point one comes to accept mild distention as "normal"). It isn't difficult to see the difference it makes.

 

 

This doesn't describe my three....but in their defense, they are pushing 10+ for Labs and don't get around as well as they used to, even though the old man tries his best to hide it.  I think they are entitled to having a bit of waist.   

 

Stefanie

[Spy Car]

oh the POOP! I love raw fed poop! :D

Oh yea!

 

If one saw the small clean poops from a raw fed dog vs the plop that comes out of a kibble fed dog one could believe the excrements came from different species.

 

In the former case the animal is (clearly) utilizing the food it is evolved to eat naturally with very little waste product as a result vs animals being fed an unnatural diet predominated by grains which produces big stinky piles of poo.

 

One need not be a rocket scientist to see (and smell) the difference.

 

Bill

[Liz CA]

Oh yea!

 

If one saw the small clean poops from a raw fed dog vs the plop that comes out of a kibble fed dog one could believe the excrements came from different species.

 

In the former case the animal is (clearly) utilizing the food it is evolved to eat naturally with very little waste product as a result vs animals being fed an unnatural diet predominated by grains which produces big stinky piles of poo.

 

One need not be a rocket scientist to see (and smell) the difference.

 

Bill

 

And it decomposes super fast instead of stinking up your backyard.

 

[Liz CA]

When I go to all home cooked I'll use dried ground eggshells for calcium. Right now I'm feeding enough kibble that I don't worry about adding in extra calcium.

 

You may want to consider switching the older dog right now along with your other dog. We had an old (12 years) rottie that we switched to raw when our new dog came and he lived another 3 years after teetering on on the cliff prior to that.

 

We found a butcher who would give us large hip bones and both dogs sat around licking the marrow out of the bones.

[Spy Car]

I'm middle-ground on the veggies and fruit.

 

For those who don't know, there are split camps in the raw feeding world between "BARF model" feeders (who generally include vegetables, fruit, a higher amount of bone, and have a greater acceptance of ground meats and mixes) and "Prey Model" feeders (who tend to generally avoid vegetables and fruit, feed less bone, and strongly prefer large whole pieces of meat, bone, and organ that dogs have to work at to eat).

 

I occasionally feed a small amounts of either cooked and mashed vegetables (like pumpkin or sweet potato) or juiced/pulped raw greens. I do it to (hopefully) add some micronutrients that may be lacking in commercially raised meat, and not in amounts intended to provide much in the way of calories. Just my best hunch on this "controversial" issue.

 

 

Bill

[Pawz4me]

That seems like it would take an awful lot of eggshells. It also removes what I'm coming to believe is an under-appreciated activity, that being the active crunching of raw/soft edible bone.

 

No, it doesn't really take many eggshells.  One large eggshell has somewhere in the neighborhood of 800 to 1,000 mg. of calcium.  And it doesn't take a lot to balance out the phosphorus.  The general thinking among the "balance over time" group is that you need to add about one ground eggshell to each pound of food fed to roughly balance things.

 

 

Not sold on raw.

 

I feed my cats and dogs Innova, which is made with human-quality ingredients.

 

Our vet in San Jose used to be Dr. Wendell Belfield. When we first started going to him around 1987, he would not recommend any manufactured pet foods; instead, he offered a recipe for making your own. It was nasty. I gagged when I was cooking it for my kitties, and they wouldn't eat it, so I gave that up, lol. Dr. Belfield published articles on his research into manufactured pet foods, and had documented evidence of animals who had died because the meat in the prepared food they had eaten had been euthanized, and there was enough of the drugs in the food to cause death. Here's one of his articles.

 

There's a company in San Jose called An-Jan which sold food for dogs and cats and other critters. The owner took his pets to Dr. Belfield, and Dr. Belfield would give him grief about selling that stuff. Finally, the owner decided to start his own company, NaturaPet. Dr. Belfield recommended Innova (but he didn't sell it--we had to go to An-Jan). 

 

So we've used Innova (and Evo, the higher protein, higher fat, lower carb version of Innova) ever since. We have seen a remarkable improvement in the coats of every single animal that has come to us, even those whose previous owners had fed them premium foods.

 

Innova (Natura) used to be a fabulous company.  Unfortunately, when they were bought out by P&G several years ago the quality really went downhill IMO.  And the recalls began.  If the buyout hadn't occurred I'd probably still be feeding their products and not even considering switching to a home-cooked diet.

 

 

I chose raw over home cooked because I do not believe that dogs need to be eating veggies.

 

Fair enough.  But I don't share that belief.  Wild dogs and wolves consume the stomach contents of their prey, usually as one of the first (so most desirable) parts they eat.  Those contents include all sorts of veggies, fruits, nuts, grains, etc.

 

 

I think for a lot of people the idea that a dog is a carnivore is a disconnect

 

I don't believe that dogs are carnivores.  Certainly not in the sense that cats are.  Dogs can manufacturer their own taurine, so it's entirely possible for a dog to live well on a vegetarian or even a vegan diet (although IMO it certainly wouldn't be desirable).

 

I believe our modern dogs are most accurately described as opportunistic scavengers.

 

FWIW, my opinion is based on all the reading I've done over the years as well as observing dogs over several decades.  I've seen dogs go into a cornfield, drag stalks back and feast on raw corn.  I've seen dogs do the same thing with tomatoes from gardens.  I've had dogs who would nab any piece of fruit they could get.  These were all well fed dogs, not starving strays.

 

 

You may want to consider switching the older dog right now along with your other dog. We had an old (12 years) rottie that we switched to raw when our new dog came and he lived another 3 years after teetering on on the cliff prior to that.

 

We found a butcher who would give us large hip bones and both dogs sat around licking the marrow out of the bones.

 

My older dog has been fed raw.  I've been experimenting with different forms of feeding for a very, very long time. ;)  At 14.5 he's pretty much been fed every way one could feed a dog, and I've got a very good handle on what works for him.

[Mom-ninja.]

So, I'm intrigued and would like to not buy kibble. Cost stops me for the most part. 

 

Give me the easy peasy run down of what I would/should feed my 80 lb lab/weimer mix. I'm going to go ahead and say I lean toward the camp of feeding veggies and fruit along with meat. Can anyone make it easy for me? What and how much? 

 

Also, this may seem like a silly question, but do you feed your dogs/cats raw food in the house? On the occasion I give my dog a raw bone or raw organ meat he drags it through my house, plopping it down all over my floors, his dog bed, my carpet, and even my bed. That is gross! If I give it to him outside he buries it, but doesn't eat it and it is wasted. 

[Mom-ninja.]

My routine (and cost structure) is very similar to Sdel's. Items like beef heart, chicken heart, chicken quarters or drumsticks, chicken and turkey necks, gizzards, and feet are economical and nutritious. As are the vital organ parts, like liver and kidney.

 

I also feed a lot of whole "oily" fish, like mackerel and sardines. I can often get these for $1 to $1.50 a pound on sale, and I stock up and freeze.

 

Asian, latino, and other "ethnic" markets tend to be helpful sources.

 

Also like Sdel, I use a butcher that delivers some of the speciality items that add variety. Things like green tripe (I scored some bison and lamb green tripe on the last delivery to add to my stash of cow tripe (the excitement of which is hard to understand from "the outside"). I also got a case of stunningly beautiful (and cheap) elk meat, a case of beef cartilage, pig ears, ground pig stomach, lamb and pig feet (fur on), and duck feet. Who's getting hungry???

 

Anyway, it doesn't need to be so exotic. But for many it becomes a sort of quest to find good parts (many of which have fallen out of human fashion to eat, to our detriment) at a good price for the dog. The supply chain will vary depending on location. Some people hunt, others have relationships with ranchers. I hit "ethnic markets" and use a cost-effective speciality butcher.

 

Many of the items I feed the dog are a dollar a pound (or less) and rarely do I spend over $2 a pound. That's less than feeding so-called high end kibble, if one doesn't favor in the time involved. And it does take time. But for me the satisfaction of watching my dog eat food that is providing optimal nutrition (and seeing the pay-off in his obvious well-being) is worth the time investment for me. I won't try to kid anyone that doesn't take work (and a spare freezer).

 

But when people see my dog they know something very different going on there (even if they don't know what). And I'm really happy I can make it happen for him, and without busting the bank.

 

Bill

So how much do you feed them? Do you rotate? Where do you buy the fish? 

 

I don't have a spare freezer. It died and I haven't replaced it and won't be able to for a long time. 

 

Also, can you do a mix of cooked and raw food?

[nevergiveup]

It's not hard.  Trust me, 'cause I don't particularly like to cook, either.

 

I throw a big bunch of chicken in the crock pot every couple of weeks.  When it's done I shred it up and freeze most of it.

I brown some hamburger for variety, and keep some canned fish on hand. And eggs, of course.  Then all I have to do is mix in some of whatever veggies we're having.  If I weren't feeding them a little kibble I'd toss in some dried ground eggshells for calcium.  It takes very little effort, really.

There's were I would get into trouble--my son would be fighting the dog for the food....

[Pawz4me]

There's were I would get into trouble--my son would be fighting the dog for the food....

 

We eat it, too.  We use the chicken for sandwiches, quesadillas, soup, etc.  The hamburger for tacos or whatever.  It's for all of us. :)

[Sdel]

 

 

FWIW, m opinion is based on all the reading I've done over the years as well as observing dogs over several decades.  I've seen dogs go into a cornfield, drag stalks back and feast on raw corn.  I've seen dogs do the same thing with tomatoes from gardens.  I've had dogs who would nab any piece of fruit they could get.  These were all well fed dogs, not starving strays.

 

 

 

 

I completely disagree.  Just because an animal can and does eat something, it doesn't mean it derives nutrition from it. People eat such things all the time.  Even ruminant animals, animals so efficiently designed to eat plants, don't effectively process raw corn, it passes right though almost completely intact. It has to be cooked and processed or fermented before a ruminant can really utilize it for nutrients/energy. In fact, corn is just a horrible source of just about every nutrient except energy.....which is why it makes sense that birds are the only animals really equipped to deal with it.  Perhaps the dogs discovered that corn stalks/cobs could be a fun chew.  

 

Stefanie 

 

[unsinkable]

I'm totally sold on raw too.

 

I'm seeing demonstrably vibrant health. Clear eyes, sparklingly white teeth, a glistening coat, great energy, small poops, lean-hard muscles, a taut stomach with none of the typical abdominal bloating he commonly sees with kibble-fed dogs (to the point one comes to accept mild distention as "normal"). It isn't difficult to see the difference it makes.

 

We met up with both a litter-mate and a half-sibling of our dog recently, and the differences in condition were striking (and we're not talking about neglected dogs).

 

And the other day I was at a dog class and we had a newcomer goin us with an Irish Setter, which I greeted (having had one as a boy). I immediately said to the woman-owner, "raw-fed huh?" She seemed surprised for a moment, like "how did I know?," but I really wasn't hard to tell.

 

Bill

I'm glad it works for you.

 

Based on your stance against early neutering, I was expecting a description of your puppy's beautiful, taut balls. :D

[Ellie]

 

 

 

Innova (Natura) used to be a fabulous company.  Unfortunately, when they were bought out by P&G several years ago the quality really went downhill IMO.  And the recalls began.  If the buyout hadn't occurred I'd probably still be feeding their products and not even considering switching to a home-cooked diet.

 

 

 

 

I thought that at first, too. But the "recall" was not because there were problems with the product on the market--no animals became ill--not initiated by...whoever the powers that be are who make those decisions. :-) In its own facilities, P&G noticed some things weren't up to their standard and voluntarily recalled all its products, then they went through and retooled and tested and whatnot until things were as they should be. We're back to using Innova, and are just as satisfied with it now as we have been ever since we started using it.

[shukriyya]

I'm enjoying the range of opinions on this thread. We just got a little rescue a few weeks ago. She was very thin, had kennel cough and was generally run down. I started her on a raw diet along with canine probiotics, an immune booster and an omega-3 supplement. She's coming along nicely :) Whether I'll continue her on a raw diet I'm not sure but I'm liking what I see so far.

 

Our other guy is on Natural Balance L.I.D food and that's working well, too.

[Pawz4me]

I completely disagree.  Just because an animal can and does eat something, it doesn't mean it derives nutrition from it. People eat such things all the time.  Even ruminant animals, animals so efficiently designed to eat plants, don't effectively process raw corn, it passes right though almost completely intact. It has to be cooked and processed or fermented before a ruminant can really utilize it for nutrients/energy. In fact, corn is just a horrible source of just about every nutrient except energy.....which is why it makes sense that birds are the only animals really equipped to deal with it.  Perhaps the dogs discovered that corn stalks/cobs could be a fun chew.  

 

Stefanie 

 

I  never said anything about whether or not dogs derived nutrients from corn.  I was merely pointing out that given the opportunity, even a well fed dog will seek it out and eat it.

 

A study you might be interested in.

 

 

 

We identify candidate mutations in key genes and provide functional support for an increased starch digestion in dogs relative to wolves. Our results indicate that novel adaptations allowing the early ancestors of modern dogs to thrive on a diet rich in starch, relative to the carnivorous diet of wolves, constituted a crucial step in the early domestication of dogs.

 

[hornblower]

Fwiw, my fellow on kibble looks amazing too. He's very old, very rickety and has numerous health probs but the few teeth he has shine, as does his coat. A good kibble (acana or Orijen) + salmon oil + a bone/week works incredibly well for him.

My guys on raw look great, both have lovely coats. Darwin's was really thin when he came to me, his stomach was pretty much naked, but he grew in a thick tummy coat within a year. I do suspect that he has some allergies too though.... His teeth are crap however. i think it's a combination of being a hyper mouth breather, and not being a huge chewer. Took me ages to really convince him to chew recreationally or eat an rmb....


As for where to feed, their ground is either in a bowl or I hand feed it during training.

Rmbs either on the deck oif weather is nice or on their towel. (Also consider a giant crate - good idea esp for any dog with possible resource guarding) Rec bones on the towel until they're not goopy, then they can take them wherever they. Sometimes that means there's an old dry marrow bone on my bed lol...

My 3 are all fine to feed together but I still supervise when they get a new bone, for the first 30 mins or so.

I usually block off the access to the garden from the deck because darwin is a burier. Must have missed doing it at some point in past few months because Darwin dug up a half eaten ancient buffalo knuckle a few days ago. He was very pleased with himself and it was big enough that Bear got some too when Darwin got bored of it....

[Lizzie in Ma]

I'm not sold on a raw diet. Our old dog ate home cooked meals, the new puppy gets a mixture. Her kibble is called Taste of the Wild. She also gets plain yogurt with apples, and brown rice/turkey/green beans. I read that a dog's shiny coat depends on fat content, which can be found in cooked, raw, and certain kibble. Our last dog had the shiniest fur I've ever seen.

 

We've fed all our pets Taste of the Wild, they are/were healthy with gorgeous coats and good teeth.