Thoughts about teenage boy vanity...

[Ginevra]

I am not sure how much intervention is needed or if this is just a common teenager thing that will work itself out. I am especially looking for input from Sadie, Albeto, or any other non-punitive or not-especially-punitive parents.

 

deleted the content. Thanks.

[Snickerdoodle]

It sounds like things aren't going to happen exactly according to his preferred plan for whatever reason.   It's a life skill learning to handle disappointments.

[Liz CA]

I would let him handle it by himself. Make the appt, get it cut, pay for it etc. Then it would not be on my list and I would not worry about it. If you have agreed to the coloring, tell him which day is convenient for you or teach him to do by himself. Not sure if you consider this punitive?

[fairfarmhand]

I;d just give him the facts.

 

a. only appointment is Friday. oh. So sad. It'll have that terrible "just cut" look.

 

b. highlights must be done when convenient for me.

 

"Son, I know you want your hair done just right, but I guess we're just going to have to deal with it the way that things worked out. "

 

I don't see that there's anything that you can do about it at this point if he's that particular.

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, I'd say common teenage vanity.

 

I bet as his horizons expand he'll find more interesting things to obsess about.

[Barbara H]

When I read your post I thought I bet he's around 14 or 15. In other words, yes, I think this is a not that uncommon phase. My approach would be to acknowledge it is important to him and support him in getting it taken care of.... but not to go way out of my way to feed into it.

[fairfarmhand]

By the way, to my dd, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER is (insert some silly ridiculous teen vanity) Could be hair, right now it's makeup. Sometimes it;s clothes. whatever.

 

I have to reminder her that "Dear I know that it is really important for you to ____. But as a mom, I have lots to take care of. The least of which is maintaining my sanity. I will try my best to help you with your concerns, but I;ve got other stuff to manage too. "

[regentrude]

His hair should be his responsibility. If you do not have time to take care of this because there are more important things on your schedule, he needs to either take care if it himself, or it can't get done. This has nothing to do with being dismissive - it's just reality, and some things simply do rank a bit lower on a list of priorities than others.

In general I try to help my kids out with stuff like this, but if I'm not available, they need to deal. That does not involve judgement, it's just reality. I bend over backwards to get important stuff done (college applications etc), but I don't kill myself for non-essentials.

[Scarlett]

Typical.  My son is 14 and we are going through the same thing.

 

Makes me think of the episode where Sheldon couldn't get his hair cut 'on time' because his barber was in the hospital.  He kept slinging his head back like his hair was down to his chin.  Hilarious stuff.

[albeto.]

I think the word you're looking for is "catastrophizing." I do it too - a concern in my mind takes on catastrophic proportions in my imagination! If it helps, I don't think what he's doing is concerning or shows undue vanity. We do live in a society where we can (generally speaking) afford the time and spare change to looking somewhat how we want to look. It's a part of our culture and he's right there in the middle of it, not excessive from what you say. Will he freak out if he can't get it his way? Will the consequences be worse for you than if you rearrange everything to make it work his way? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. The idea that he can take care of this stuff is a good idea if he's got the skills and confidence to make the phone calls and set up the appointments. If not, now's a good time to train him in that so next time he does have the confidence to take care of this independently without having to rely on you and your schedule. If he will likely freak out, that's another issue altogether. We can talk about that, but I think it would be unrelated to vanity. 

 

As far as the fear of raising a vain, shallow person, my knee-jerk reaction is to wonder what it is about vanity that puts you on edge. I can't help but wonder if the real issue is the discomfort for you. Is he an unsympathetic person? Does he show disdain for others who struggle with problems he doesn't? Is he confrontational or particularly condescending or rude? To me, vanity is a personality trait rather than one of appearance and style. I'd be curious to see if the vanity is his, or the anxiety is squarely yours. If it's yours, you don't need to do anything more with him than you already do, but you might feel better yourself if you can identify what it is that triggers this anxiety so you can find comfort. 

 

[zoobie]

I think it's typical thought process only older people or not your child people don't voice it aloud. DH is particular about when he gets his hair cut. He keeps it very short and tries to time it at least a week ahead so it's not too short if there will be pictures (vacation) and so it won't be too long and bug him by the end of the trip. He usually gets it cut every 3 weeks. He's not vain and doesn't preen, and he goes to Great Clips or I do it. An outsider would never know his thought processes about hair.

 

I agree that I'd be letting this person schedule and pay for it though. I'd LMAO if DH got highlights. ;)

[Guest]

I would let him handle it by himself. Make the appt, get it cut, pay for it etc. Then it would not be on my list and I would not worry about it. If you have agreed to the coloring, tell him which day is convenient for you or teach him to do by himself. Not sure if you consider this punitive?

No, I don't consider that punitive. He can't make the appt. himself, because I will have to drive him there and that has to work with the other things I need to finish, but yeah, I could literally drop him off and go take care of the van inspection or something while he gets it cut.

 

It's the bigger picture that bothers me; I don't want him to think his hair is the most crucial thing in the world. I even said, in my irritation, "well, if freshly-cut hair is your biggest problem in life, then I think you are awfully lucky."

[Scarlett]

No, I don't consider that punitive. He can't make the appt. himself, because I will have to drive him there and that has to work with the other things I need to finish, but yeah, I could literally drop him off and go take care of the van inspection or something while he gets it cut.

 

It's the bigger picture that bothers me; I don't want him to think his hair is the most crucial thing in the world. I even said, in my irritation, "well, if freshly-cut hair is your biggest problem in life, then I think you are awfully lucky."

 

 

I think it is ok that you are irritated...but really I think it is fairly normal.  

[Danestress]

I think if you normally would pay for your kids' haircuts, it would be a bit weird to decide now that he has to pay, and might make him feel like he is being punished for caring about how it looks. Further, if you have a lot going on right now but are his only source of transportation, it makes sense you might call and schedule. I am not sure my kid knows my schedule of availability, but if you can tell him when you are available, then it would perhaps work for him to make the appointment.

 

It does not seem like a big issue that he is vain. I am not particularly vain and none of my kids are, but I know a lot of people who care a lot about how they look and it would matter greatly to them. I probably would not want to make a boy this age feel embarrassed for caring, and I probably would try to raise this on my priority list if I could, because it is important to him, as long as he is generally respectful of my time. If he is this demanding about a long list of things, I would answer differently.

 

But as always with a teen who has a problem, I would ask him how he plans to solve the problem. Tell him what the barber has available and ask what he thinks he should do. You can't change the barbers schedule for him and don't need to brain storm this for him.

[Alice]

It's the bigger picture that bothers me

 

I didn't want to quote your whole post as you said you might want to delete, so that might seem out of context. 

 

I don't have a teen but in general I think it's easy for other people to look at a situation and say "yep, that's pretty developmentally normal and a phase that the kid will grow out of" where when it's your own kids it's much easier to worry that the 2 year old's tantrums will become anger issues or the 4 year old that won't separate to go to class will have severe social anxiety or that the 14 year old boy worried about his hair will become horribly narcissistic and vain. :) As parents, we are sort of wired to worry more about the big picture with our own kids, when a lot of times we can see more clearly when talking about other people's kids. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

That would annoy the snot out of me. It would be a particularly annoying phase to endure, but that is how I would treat it: As a phase.

My rules for phases are that I ignore them when I can, accommodate them mildly if I can do so without really going out of my way, and comment on them not at all. They pass more quickly that way.

 

My boys can tell from my exuberance level about their current phase, whether I really approve or not. If I actually criticize or lecture the phase lasts longer which is the opposite of what I want.

 

Whining and begging fall under a different area. That's never allowed. Moaning about lack of help achieving desired gorgeousness? No.

 

Dear children, pestering me is the #1 way to not get what you want; any form of whining bumps your non-necessary desire to the absolute bottom of my list. Be calm and cool and take what I can give, and I'll try to make it happen. I was young once and I know this is big in your world so I'll try to be there for you. However, if you make me sorry I even bothered, I'll remember that next time. "Thankful" goes a looooooong way with parents.

[Mom in High Heels]

I think it's pretty typical teen vanity.  If you are *willing* to do it, then go for it, but if not, tell him he needs to figure out a way to pay for an appt to have it done, or at least pay half.  Indy (12 next week!) is just starting to get into a "hair" phase, but he wants his colored wacky colors.  We've done a few color mousses and hair sprays, but for his b-day, I told him we could put in a temp color (last about 6 weeks), and he's so excited.  He's now trying to decide if he wants red, blue or green.  Sigh.  Why do they have to grow up???

 

BTW, "Golden Mane of Glory" is quite possibly the best thing I've heard today.

[Trish]

There's such a brief period in life that guys get to be vain about their hair!

 

Anyway, make him aware of the time/space/availability restrictions, and let him decide what he wants to do.

 

I don't think it's a character issue, it's a phase.

 

However it's character-building to either live with or figure out how to slalom around the limitations life puts there for us.

[Catwoman]

I agree with the sentiment that this is nothing to worry about. And really, is it such a bad thing if he has a bit of vanity, even as an adult? Personally, I would much prefer my ds to care about his appearance and try to look his best, rather than not care at all and walk around looking like a slob.

 

Obviously, vanity can be taken too far, but I doubt your ds will have that problem. He sounds like a perfectly normal teenager to me. :)

[rdj2027]

I have three teenage sons and if there is one thing they all obsess about it is the hair.  However, I have many a things to do  and until they take over some tasks, I have no time to deal with things that are not on MY priority list.  Their choice, they can clean the bathrooms and I take them somewhere or I clean the bathrooms and they have to deal.  Oddly enough they always decide that the hair isn't quite so important anymore :lol: .

[trulycrabby]

Just tell him to ask the stylist not to cut it quite so short because he does not want the "just cut" look for the beach. :)

[Pawz4me]

IME it's a normal phase.  I'd probably humor him, but I wouldn't inconvenience myself too much.

 

Oldest DS was very vain about his hair when he was that age.  It took him forever to get ready to go anywhere, 'cause he had to get his hair just perfect first.  Now at 18 he's still very much invested in his appearance, but his focus has shifted to clothes.

 

Youngest DS is the total opposite, though.  He wants me to buzz his hair once every three weeks so he doesn't have to do anything to it except for shampooing, and he doesn't much care what he wears.  I keep waiting to see if the vanity phase kicks in with him, but so far it hasn't.

[Guest]

As far as the fear of raising a vain, shallow person, my knee-jerk reaction is to wonder what it is about vanity that puts you on edge. I can't help but wonder if the real issue is the discomfort for you. Is he an unsympathetic person? Does he show disdain for others who struggle with problems he doesn't? Is he confrontational or particularly condescending or rude? To me, vanity is a personality trait rather than one of appearance and style. I'd be curious to see if the vanity is his, or the anxiety is squarely yours. If it's yours, you don't need to do anything more with him than you already do, but you might feel better yourself if you can identify what it is that triggers this anxiety so you can find comfort.

 

These are interesting questions and I am enjoying pondering them. He isn't condescending or rude. He also does not freak out. The actual hair incident is already basically over - the Friday appt. stands, i will highlight when I can (and if) and that's the end. He protested a little, like, "oh, but then it will be 'just cut' and that's not as good as if I had a few days..." But he also doesn't go nutsy; he'll accept that it is what it is.

 

There are some people in my extended family who *DO* have disdain for others if or when they don't look as good as they theoretically could. So, I think that's where I'm sensitive to anything that looks like that. I think, "oh, god, that's just like something Bob and Betty would say! I don't want him to be like them." I don't know...I think my kids are growing up with such comfort and privilege in general that it worries me they will not have humility and gratitude for the good hand they were dealt.

 

P.S. For clarity, not privilege as in Paris Hilton level; just a lot of nice and comfortable things in life. My life was harder and dh's life was harder, so I do believe our kids miss some of the healthy-dose-of-reality part.

[Χά�ων]

No thoughts as my DS is just 10. I was hoping for more body image stuff rather than hair. I hope it all works out! 

[Trish]

I think even Wally Cleaver was concerned about his hair. As was the Fonz.

[Erin]

Typical.  My son is 14 and we are going through the same thing.

 

Makes me think of the episode where Sheldon couldn't get his hair cut 'on time' because his barber was in the hospital.  He kept slinging his head back like his hair was down to his chin.  Hilarious stuff.

 

Here too.  lol

Sitting at 4H shooting sports last week I overheard him talking to some buddies about how long his hair has gotten on top.

"Dude, you look like Bieber."

"No, Bieber looks like ME."  :D

He told them, "Yeah.  If I put a little gel in, I look like a rock star!"  

I literally laughed out loud and told him he's expecting an awful lot from a $4 bottle of gel.  ;)  

 

Fortunately, the vast majority of the time, he just tucks it up under his ball cap anyway.  

[gardenmom5]

...what would you do? 

 

seriously?  when out of sight of ds - roll on the floor and laugh out loud.  He's 14.  then do what is within your reasonable power to help him with his wishes, as he is only 14 and it is important to him.

 

this age, both boys and girls, are frequently obsessed with how they look on the outside.  they haven't yet cottoned onto the fact most people don't give a hoot what you look like on the outside because they are too busy worrying about what they themselves look like on the outside.  (I've found those who are obsessed with how others look - are *deeply* insecure within themselves, so the must put other people down.  their opinions aren't worth much.)

 

I had one who was obsessed with his *very* high forehead - but mostly a well set-back weird growth pattern that would have been very noticeable for a normal male hairstyle.  he would only wear his hair brushed forwards over his forehead with the hair down to his eyebrows.  a well adjusted adult male "might" have been able to not worry about it, but there is a reason why hair transplant surgeons do so well.  we actually took a chunk of my inheritance and paid for a hair transplant for him when he was 20 - that's how big a deal it was to him.  because he wasn't worrying about it all. the. time. he was able to move on and deal with things 20 yo's are *supposed* to be dealing with.

[LostSurprise]

Unless it's a long-standing pattern I wouldn't even consider this 'vanity' in the traditional sense. 

 

It's easy to forget but this is a time period where you are forming your identity and learning where you fit in society. These little things are not so much vanity as the fear that you're not going to make the right impression, you won't fit in, you won't be attractive to people you're attracted to...in essence that you won't be okay. These little details are teens trying to control social response to them. Control combats the fear a bit.

 

It's hard enough that he can't do it on his own. Mom has to drive him there, do stuff for him. I'd cut him a break. I'd find it more sadly amusing than upsetting. It's no use comparing your life with his. You're at different stages. His life is just as important and crazy and scary as your was to you at that time...we only feel that it's no big deal because we've lived through it and moved on to other things.

 

Not that you should inconvenience yourself overly much. Just empathize with him a little. 

[Catwoman]

seriously? when out of sight of ds - roll on the floor and laugh out loud. He's 14. then do what is within your reasonable power to help him with his wishes, as he is only 14 and it is important to him.

 

this age, both boys and girls, are frequently obsessed with how they look on the outside. they haven't yet cottoned onto the fact most people don't give a hoot what you look like on the outside because they are too busy worrying about what they themselves look like on the outside.

 

I had one who was obsessed with his *very* high forehead - but mostly a well set-back weird growth pattern that would have been very noticeable for a normal male hairstyle. he would only wear his hair brushed forwards over his forehead with the hair down to his eyebrows. a well adjusted adult male "might" have been able to not worry about it, but there is a reason why hair transplant surgeons do so well. we actually took a chunk of my inheritance and paid for a hair transplant for him when he was 20 - that's how big a deal it was to him. because he wasn't worrying about it all. the. time. he was able to move on and deal with things 20 yo's are *supposed* to be dealing with.

That was a very kind and generous gift. :hurray: I know that many people say that appearances don't matter, but tell that to someone who is very self-conscious about something. I'm sure your ds is so much happier after his hair transplant, and I think it was a great decision.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

Youngest DS is the total opposite, though.  He wants me to buzz his hair once every three weeks so he doesn't have to do anything to it except for shampooing, and he doesn't much care what he wears.  I keep waiting to see if the vanity phase kicks in with him, but so far it hasn't.

 

I had one who never cared,  and works in a field that has its own definition of "casual".

 

[gaillardia]

Who has ever gone to the beach and had their hair still look good? Show me! When I went to the beach at that age, my hair was very long and straight and I never did much with it. If he has long hair the less he worries about how it looks, the better it will look. Think Hawaiian/Californian beach dudes, young punks.

One of ours keeps his very short, does it himself, looks fine. The wind blows so hard at the beach, I don't know how it will matter.

[gardenmom5]

oh, he is.  he doesn't much care about Christmas or birthday presents because that one (which was at Christmas time) was such a big deal for him. it's been about five years.

his self-confidence has gone up because he's not obsessing over it anymore either.  he's a really handsome dude.

That was a very kind and generous gift. :hurray: I know that many people say that appearances don't matter, but tell that to someone who is very self-conscious about something. I'm sure your ds is so much happier after his hair transplant, and I think it was a great decision.

 

[Scarlett]

oh, he is.  he doesn't much care about Christmas or birthday presents because that one (which was at Christmas time) was such a big deal for him. it's been about five years.

his self-confidence has gone up because he's not obsessing over it anymore either.  he's a really handsome dude.

 

 

I agree it was an awesome gift.  People can go to far with altering their appearance but sometimes it is understandable. I knew a painter one time who paid to have his daughter's ears made less prominent.  I know it was a big deal for him to pay for but he and his wife thought it was important.  He said it changed her completely because she had so little self esteem before.

[Tap]

Oh my!  I can't not fathom one of my kids acting like that!  I know teens like that exist, and maybe (?) it is in then normal span of teen behavior, but there is no way I would support, encourage or facilitate such a behavior.  Entitled behavior in my house, will get the person a swift kick off of the pedestal they have built for themselves.....and some serious time spent volunteering to help them understand what true need is!

 

 

 

I understand wanting a hair cut, but obsessing over the amount of days post hair cut, the vacation will fall, or getting highlights(????) to give him a golden mane?  Over the top in my book.

 

 

 

[Guest]

I understand wanting a hair cut, but obsessing over the amount of days post hair cut, the vacation will fall, or getting highlights(????) to give him a golden mane? Over the top in my book.

 

You seem to be the lone dissenter.

[zoobie]

I think it's pretty typical teen vanity. If you are *willing* to do it, then go for it, but if not, tell him he needs to figure out a way to pay for an appt to have it done, or at least pay half. Indy (12 next week!) is just starting to get into a "hair" phase, but he wants his colored wacky colors. We've done a few color mousses and hair sprays, but for his b-day, I told him we could put in a temp color (last about 6 weeks), and he's so excited. He's now trying to decide if he wants red, blue or green. Sigh. Why do they have to grow up???

 

BTW, "Golden Mane of Glory" is quite possibly the best thing I've heard today.

I agree. I keep giggling about that. Maybe get it put on a shirt for him? ;) It would become a catch phrase at our house!

 

I missed that he was 14 and mom is doing highlights. Talented mom! :)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Oh my!  I can't not fathom one of my kids acting like that!  I know teens like that exist, and maybe (?) it is in then normal span of teen behavior, but there is no way I would support, encourage or facilitate such a behavior.  Entitled behavior in my house, will get the person a swift kick off of the pedestal they have built for themselves.....and some serious time spent volunteering to help them understand what true need is!

 

 

 

I understand wanting a hair cut, but obsessing over the amount of days post hair cut, the vacation will fall, or getting highlights(????) to give him a golden mane?  Over the top in my book.

 

The bolded is what makes it a phase. LOL Quill is a sensible person. Her son will outgrow this moment. He doesn't need mandatory service hours to remind him that life is not about his hair. (JMVHO, of course.)

 

I can't really picture it, either, because hairdos and looks aren't really a thing in my houseful of boys, but all I had to do was to apply the principle to my son's freakout obsession over a particular electric guitar and custom wah-wah pedal and it was the same thing, really.

 

He was holy about it, too; people might not have recognized it as "vanity" or as being "a teen like that." ;) He wanted it because he plays in our church's worship band and there was a particular Aaron Pelsue song that needed this exact sound...but the persistence and moving heaven and earth to get it before a particular concert date, wanting everybody else to care as much as he did?

 

Teen phase.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

dp

[catz]

I have to say, I think it's pretty adorable!  This will be a great story to tell in years to come.  This whole thread made me laugh.  Golden mane of glory!  :laugh: :001_wub:  

 

I have a 13 year old son and he could truly care less about his hair.  He walks around like a toddler with bed head all the time.  But he has his own brand of mind numbing obsessions.  And who knows what is coming down the road next!  I do think it's important to respect kid's interests and preferences.  But I also think keeping it real and showing how to balance priorities is good too. 

[AK_Mom4]

I vote teen phase.

Both my boys went thru phases of obsessing over their looks being perfect - right about the time they started noticing girls if I remember correctly.

 

This self-absorbion phase passes.

[Guest]

I can't really picture it, either, because hairdos and looks aren't really a thing in my houseful of boys, but all I had to do was to apply the principle to my son's freakout obsession over a particular electric guitar and custom wah-wah pedal and it was the same thing, really.

 

He was holy about it, too; people might not have recognized it as "vanity" or as being "a teen like that." He wanted it because he plays in our church's worship band and there was a particular Aaron Pelsue song that needed this exact sound...but the persistence and moving heaven and earth to get it before a particular concert date, wanting everybody else to care as much as he did?

 

Sympatico! He-of-the-Golden-Hair also plays guitar for the teen worship at church.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

LOL

[Tap]

You seem to be the lone dissenter.

Yep, and I am ok with that.  :0) 

[Laurie4b]

It's the bigger picture that bothers me; I don't want him to think his hair is the most crucial thing in the world. I even said, in my irritation, "well, if freshly-cut hair is your biggest problem in life, then I think you are awfully lucky."

 

4 sons here. Youngest is 15. Ride it out. Let him know what you can and can't do to accommodate. It's very normal, passes pretty quickly, and in the absence of lack of concern/empathy for others, I wouldn't give it another thought in terms of his future self.

[Mom-ninja.]

 

 

I have a 13 year old son and he could truly care less about his hair.  He walks around like a toddler with bed head all the time.    

This is also my 13 yr old. People call him Harry Potter because he has dark curly hair and it sticks up in every direction. He has a brush, in his bathroom drawer, never used. He washes his hair....when reminded.

[Mom-ninja.]

I think it's ok for kids to grouse a smidge too if things don't go their way. God knows I do.

 I may or may not grouse more than a smidge.

[ThisIsTheDay]

 I even said, in my irritation, "well, if freshly-cut hair is your biggest problem in life, then I think you are awfully lucky."

 

I have a 15 yo son who likes his hair. 

 

The only person he trusts to cut it is me.  I am not a hair cutter, but I'll watch the video, and it saves me the hassle of going anywhere and paying someone else to do what I can reasonably replicate at home.

 

I also bleach the ends of his hair.

 

He's a super awesome, easy, agreeable kid who never asks for anything.  He likes his hair right now.

 

When I think of the challenges of trying to get some boys to shower, to brush teeth and/or use deodorant, to change into clean clothes, to have a decent haircut, this doesn't seem like such a bad thing!  It's definitely better than the alternatives.

 

It's only when he gels his hair after showering, 15 minutes before bedtime, that I start getting a bit twitchy.  lol  As he points out, though, it still looks pretty good in the morning.

 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

your son sounds so different to my norm that I cannot even imagine itAll as we care about here is that it is clean.. one son (Ds20 ) only has his hair cut 2 times a year as he couldn't be bothered more often ( he is at uni thought and studies very hard) the other children get me to hack some off every now and then. they wear the same type of tops and jeans every single day and don't care if the top is a bit torn or the jeans have work stains. I would say that the majority of boys of a similar age that I know are the same, though they are rural. 

[Onceuponatime]

Typical.  My son is 14 and we are going through the same thing.

 

Makes me think of the episode where Sheldon couldn't get his hair cut 'on time' because his barber was in the hospital.  He kept slinging his head back like his hair was down to his chin.  Hilarious stuff.

 

 

This is my 15yo right now. Some of his friends even call him Sheldon. We don't even watch whatever show it is that he is on. I've seen pictures though. There is a resemblance. :smilielol5:

 

 

 

My oldest son became quite taken with his hair around 14. He discovered it would naturally curl if he let it grow out. ( I had cut it short myself his whole life.) This made him look a lot like a typical teenage boy pop star. By 16 he was sporting Johnny Depp style facial hair as well. Since he didn't want me bringing clippers near his hair any more, he started paying for any cuts himself.

 

He is now 23, a CPA, is clean shaven, and has a typical business man's haircut.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Just tell him what you told us. He is old enough to understand that 1. Due to circumstances beyond your control the cut/highlight order isn't possible. 2. His hair is not your top priority.   My brother went through a similar hair stage (though it was the 80's so just imagine) and he is now a non vain adult male with a job, wife and life.  :laugh:  I have a bit of the reverse going with my dd here.  Maybe we could meld the two.