s/o - modesty and culture

[Katy]

All this talk about what is modest and what is appropriate has me wondering - what does modesty mean?  Does modest mean trying to look unattractive?  I'm trying to decide if I hate the concept of modesty as taught to girls or not.  Or, more aptly, is there something valuable and Biblical about it or is it a bunch of neo-patriarchial cultish malarky?

 

Women who have harped at me about modesty were of below-average attractiveness and completely flat-chested; but that could just be because my bOOks have always been large (even when very thin) so that's who criticized me personally.  I grew up with lapsed Christian parents who celebrated holidays but mostly detested church. To give you an idea of my family culture, I heard the term "Self-righteous son of a b-," as a description of a very religious but hypocritical extended family member at home much more often than we prayed, and aside from insisting I not wear an outfit I loved "because it makes you look 25 instead of 12 and is just too gorgeous," and pushing glasses instead of contacts on me "because they make you look like Gloria Steinham," I didn't get any modesty talk at home. I got praised for beauty (amongst other things).  My mom tried to convince me to wear a bikini instead of a one-piece on a class trip, for example (my bOOks were big & I was afraid of a separate top slipping), and paid for me to have my hair highlighted. Oh, and my parents thought chastity was an unrealistic expectation so all of us had the full-blown TEA talk complete with condom demonstration by age 9.  They did make a point that dark eye makeup and cleavage were only appropriate after dark and/or at the beach, but that was a "be classy" conversation not a "be modest" one.

 

Needless to say, I wasn't exposed to the concept of modesty until I became Christian in college.  I read Wendy Shalit's book A Return to Modesty at the time and thought I understood, but then I got called out during a sermon and a bible study for wearing a tomato-red skirt suit (long sleeve, covered from collarbone to below my knees, probably half a size too big, tailored but not at all tight, and fit every rule described in Wendy's book). The sermon incident the pastor was yelling at people in the congregation for judging me for daring to wear a red dress to church, and during the later bible study the focus was clearly on trying to look unattractive "so as not to be a stumbling block."  Then I moved to South Florida, where I went to a Southern Baptist church for a while where even at church events people wore beach clothes, half the events were on the beach, and most young women wore string bikinis at said events. I felt much more relaxed at that church because no one cared about modesty (it was just too hot to think that exposed skin meant trying to seduce).

 

As a parent I'm raising my children as Christians, but more of a the-law-serves-us, we don't serve the law variety than of a follow a bunch of empty rules Christianity.

 

So what is your definition of modesty?  And if you're of the "Modesty means looking as unattractive as possible," variety, how do you reconcile that with all of the female beauty described in the Bible?  I see the Biblical descriptions as not trying to be seductive, but not hiding beauty either.  Am I missing something?

 

[liber]

I don't think looking unattractive means modesty. But I do think wearing clothes where it is all hanging out is immodest. And yes, I do think slutty when I see a girl where her breasts are barely covered and her skirt is too short. A bikini at a beach, not slutty for me. I guess it all depends on context. I believe clothes, for the most part says a lot about a person. I do believe people try to convey a certain image and message with their clothes. Even in ancient times clothes and their meaning were significant and I don't believe that has changed today. It allows us to assess people quickly, rightly or wrongly. I don't think men can look immodest because their clothes aren't designed to expose skin in the same way women's clothes are. Unless of course he is in a speedo and then that is just gross. Lol. Sorry to all the speedo wearing guys. I also don't believe that girls who look "slutty" are necesarily slutty. I do believe they are looking for attention, unfortunately it tends to be the wrong kind.

[bolt.]

Biblical mentions of modesty are about clothing as a marker of social class, insisting that the rich and powerful refrain from making that obvious in the church.

 

In common parlance in the present day, it means not intentionally dressing in a way that is noticably more sexy than is average and expected in whatever context you are in. It is therefore a moving target by its very definition.

[Kathryn]

It's not something on my radar at all, really. The only time I encounter the topic is on here. This whole modesty and patriarchy thing is completely foreign to me. In my world, there's appropriately dressed and inappropriately dressed. As pp noted, beachwear is appropriate at the beach, not necessarily in other venues. "Private parts" should always remain covered outside of places like nude beaches. Dress codes should be followed. Those are my general thoughts on "modesty."

[Scarlett]

I definitely don't believe in the modesty concept that is intended to make someone as unattractive as possible. To me that is ridiculous.

 

Beyond that, meh I don't buy into too many rules about dress. I wear dresses above my knees that are modest and have worn too tight of a dress below the knee that is immodest. Mostly I go by not too short, not too tight, not too low cut. Some occasions call for a more subdued look over all, but no red in church? That is crazy to me.

 

I guess I am not that conservative. I don't have girls but my son knows LOTS of girls. I haven't yet thought anything negative of the way they dress.

[AmandaVT]

It's not something on my radar at all, really. The only time I encounter the topic is on here. This whole modesty and patriarchy thing is completely foreign to me. In my world, there's appropriately dressed and inappropriately dressed. As pp noted, beachwear is appropriate at the beach, not necessarily in other venues. "Private parts" should always remain covered outside of places like nude beaches. Dress codes should be followed. Those are my general thoughts on "modesty."

 

Yup, this is me too. I never encounter the term outside of this board. 

[Aura]

Modesty, IMO, is about respect: toward yourself and to those around you.

 

It's about dressing appropriately for the situation. It's about showing to others that you care enough about them and what's going on to dress in a way that shows appreciation and consideration. (Wearing a formal dress to a formal event, wearing clothes that allow you to participate in active events, etc.)

 

It's about considering how oneself feels and the image you want to portray to others. (Choosing clothes that reflect your own tastes and needs, making yourself as attractive (or even unattractive, I suppose) as possible within the appropriateness of the event.

 

Real modesty has nothing to do with avoiding attractiveness or with others' impure or slanderous thoughts. But it does include considering what the *general* image is that you portray.

 

Real modesty is entirely subjective and relative to the event and those who attend, particularly those who host the event.

 

JMHO

[SKL]

Who harps on you about modesty?  I have never had that happen or even heard of it.

 

The only time anyone ever used the term "modest" in front of me in that context (other than maybe my mom or catechism teacher) was when someone complimented my girls' clothes, saying she liked to dress her daughters the same way.  (I choose the clothes because I think they are cute and practical for young girls.  I guess they are modest too, but aren't most little-girl school/church clothes?)

 

Anyhoo.  I think modesty is about looking around to see how people react to different kinds of dress in different contexts, and dressing in a way that doesn't invite excessive attention.  There are modest bathing suits and immodest church clothes.  Humans are wired / conditioned to adjust their expectations based on the context.

 

I don't understand what is wrong with an expectation of modesty.  It isn't that much different from an expectation of polite speech or table manners.  I don't want to see what's in your mouth at a banquet, and I don't want to see your belly at school....

[Lolly]

To me, it is keeping your bits covered. Men have less bits. Most of theirs are easily covered. (Except for plumbers...) For women it is harder. How much of those upper bits? Some have a harder time keeping them covered due to square footage. it is also place dependent. It also depends on what you are doing (a little flash during bfing? who cares). 

[73349]

I don't understand what is wrong with an expectation of modesty.  It isn't that much different from an expectation of polite speech or table manners.  I don't want to see what's in your mouth at a banquet, and I don't want to see your belly at school....

 

I agree with this, and I'd add that it applies equally regardless of gender. If modesty is a virtue--and I think it is, though not one I spend a lot of time worrying about--then it's a virtue for all.

[marbel]

I was always taught that modesty means not calling undue attention to oneself.   So to me it has little to do with short skirts or a v-neck top and more to do (as a pp said) dressing appropriately for the occasion. 

 

It would also mean not having words emblazoned across the backside of trousers or a swimsuit because that would lead people to look there.  It could include not showing so much cleavage that people either can't stop looking or can't stand looking.   I don't even like it when I'm trying to talk with someone who looks as if she is presenting her breasts on a platter for all to admire.   I knew a guy who put on some weight and his trousers became way too tight if you know what I mean.  It wasn't intentional but it was immodest.   A backless dress designed to show off an angel wing tattoo is fine is some places, but a bit immodest in church.  A simple coverup solves that problem.   A Che (for example) tshirt in some venues is immodest even though it fully covers the middle. 

 

It has nothing to do with making oneself unattractive.  In fact it would be immodest to go out of one's way to make themselves unattractive, because again it calls undue attention.  I'm thinking of a group of girls in full goth regalia I passed while walking the dog one evening.   Or girls who dress in baggy clothing to hide their feminine shapes. 

 

 

[Aura]

Who harps on you about modesty? I have never had that happen or even heard of it.

I'm not sure if you're talking to a specific poster or in general, but growing up, I had plenty of people "harp" about modesty: my parents, various churches, and even schools (all very patriarchal, btw). It probably has to do with what kind of circles you run in, whether or not you've had to desk with this.

[Susan in TN]

I think modesty is an inner quality that may or may not show up in what a person wears. A modest person will often seek to find the appropriate clothing for a particular setting, though knowing why and how to do it often comes with experience and maturity.

[SKL]

I'm not sure if you're talking to a specific poster or in general, but growing up, I had plenty of people "harp" about modesty: my parents, various churches, and even schools (all very patriarchal, btw). It probably has to do with what kind of circles you run in, whether or not you've had to desk with this.

 

I think the OP said people harp on her about it.  I assumed she was not talking about her parents or her religious teachers, who are within their rights and duties to make mention of modesty if pertinent.

[MrsMommy]

I think modesty and being appropriate? (not sure that's the word I'm looking for) are different, and neither one has to do with being attractive. I've seen beautiful women and not-so-beautiful women look both modest and not. I suppose a beautiful woman is always going to get more attention because of her beauty, but that's hardly her fault!

 

Modesty, in theory, means not drawing unnecessary attention to yourself. Yes, this can mean clothes, because if you're not wearing much, you're going to draw attention. But, it can also be about not wearing flashy or expensive things, or just dressing different.

 

Appropriate dressing is different, I think. It's appropriate in our culture to be covered up to a certain extent. So, if you're letting it all hang out at the mall, not appropriate (and probably also not modest). But, if you're at the pool or beach, it is appropriate to wear less than you would at the store, so appropriate changes based on context.

 

For example, my clothes are mostly very appropriate (I'm sure some people would complain about my cleavage, but whatever.). I just happen to prefer knee-length skirts and dresses, so I'm always covered up OK.

 

I'm pretty sure that I fall under the category of immodest more than occasionally, though. I like to do funky things to my hair, I wear bold accessories, and I've been known to carry a designer handbag. All of those things point to immodest, because I'm drawing attention to myself.

 

On the other hand, in the end, I really think modesty is a heart issue, because while I may draw attention to myself with my choices, I'm not doing it to draw attention to myself, if that makes any sense. I just happen to like the things I wear, and if it makes people notice, fine, and if not, also fine. So, my appearance may not count as modest to some, for a variety of reasons, but I still think that my heart is.

[Guest]

To me, modesty means not making oneself more important than one is, not calling attention to oneself.  It's not a quality sought after in our society -- look at our focus on celebrity, on being famous.  One of the most interesting teachings I ever had on modesty (the way I think of it) was from the sensei at my son's karate school.  He taught the children to move about the classroom in ways that did not call attention to themselves, and he had the black-belt students show the way.  In other words, the most accomplished were also those who drew the least attention to themselves.  

 

I have come to have a great appreciation for "hiddenness"--not having to be out front, important, noticed--and this is about a lot more than just the way I dress.  That really hardly comes into it at this point.  

By the way, this means that someone who is dressed "down" at a dress-up occasion is not being modest.  They are calling attention to themselves.  

 

And I'm with Kathryn, above:  the topic has never been one widely discussed in any of the milieu I have inhabited, except one, which was an odd one to begin with.   :0)  Got the heck outta there.  

[Mrs Mungo]

I think there are a lot of good descriptions of modesty. Do I think modesty with a little m is a virtue? Yes. There is nothing wrong with being modest in that sense. The problem is that the word has been co-opted by the patriarchal movement where it has taken on meanings that have nothing to do with one's heart or intentions. Instead, that sense of modesty has *everything* to do with controlling women.

 

It is this co-opting of the word that I think causes conflict within some of us. We talk a lot about dressing and acting *appropriately* for the occasion instead of focusing on the m-word.

 

Eta: An excessive focusing on what is "modest" has *most definitely* been an issue in many of our circles. But, it wasn't really something I noticed until my kids were teens. I wonder if some people simply have encountered it *yet*.

[Joshin]

Until I started homeschooling, I had never thought of the word modesty being about clothes. I wasn't raised Christian and clothing was never an issue in my house growing up. My sister and I dressed pretty weird sometimes, but my parents never mentioned it. maybe it wasn't a hill they wanted to die on? For me, modesty is an attitude thing -- be modest, don't brag or do things just to make yourself look good. When I see it used to judge the clothing a (usually) woman wears, it makes me angry. Some of us have cleavage in a turtle neck and we already had to deal with middle school and high school slut shaming just because we happened to be stacked.

 

All this to say, modesty has nothing to do with clothing. Someone in a halter top and short-shorts may be more modest -- helping others, but not taking credit, for example -- than someone in a floor length flour sack (or denim jumper!) that's always bragging about how devout and wonderful they are. I'm well aware many people assign stereotypes to clothing choices, but I personally strive and hope I'm successful at not falling into that judgement trap.

[Word Nerd]

I have not heard much about modesty outside of homeschooling boards, though a few women in our former homeschool group covered their hair and wore long skirts. I don't recall them ever talking about it or treating anyone else differently. I remember getting into an argument with a woman on another forum when she was going on about "the sin of Bathsheba"--immodesty.

[PeterPan]

I'm sorry you were the object of such treatment in a church!   :(   From what I understand, in certain parts of the country at a certain point in time (the last 50 years) RED was a taboo color.  So, believe it or not, it might have been that some people in the church were at some point preached to about not wearing red and were thus shocked at your otherwise very modest dress.   :glare:  

 

We're running into this issue with trying to teach our dd.  I grew up IFB (independent fundamental baptist) and the culture has shifted RADICALLY.  What's becoming obvious is people had so many arguments about it that were *relative* rather than based on absolutes.  They said it was because it was just what women wore, and then what women wore shifted.  They said it was because the KJV said dress (yes, this is what I grew up with!) and then NASB and ESV took over.   :lol:  They said it was because we shouldn't lead men into sin, and then we realized men were preaching that as a cover-up for their OWN sin and sexual scandals.   :thumbdown:

 

I was reading Gen. 38 with my dd today and discussing Judah's taking of Tamar.  She was dressed in what the ESV politely describes as the garb of the "cult prostitutes" and apparently she was so covered he didn't even recognize his own DIL!!!   :w00t:  Kinda reframes the whole modesty thing.   ;)

 

Here's a link on I Timothy 2:9  http://biblehub.com/1_timothy/2-9.htm  If you scroll down they provide this info from JFB further explaining the specific words.  I think it's really easy to read into it our current *impressions* of what something rather than looking at what it actually says.  I think it's ironic that it would be MORE reasonable to say there should be order and modesty (not calling attention to yourself) in church than having it be a statement about where your hem should be.  

 

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

9, 10. The context requires that we understand these directions as to women, in relation to their deportment in public worship, though the rules will hold good on other occasions also.

in modest apparel—"in seemly guise" [Ellicott]. The adjective means properly. orderly, decorous, becoming; the noun in secular writings means conduct, bearing. But here "apparel." Women are apt to love fine dress; and at Ephesus the riches of some (1Ti 6:17) would lead them to dress luxuriously. The Greek in Tit 2:3 is a more general term meaning "deportment."

shamefacedness—Trench spells this word according to its true derivation, "shamefastness" (that which is made fast by an honorable shame); as "steadfastness" (compare 1Ti 2:11, 12).

sobriety—"self-restraint" [Alford]. Habitual inner self-government [Trench]. I prefer Ellicott's translation, "sober-mindedness": the well-balanced state of mind arising from habitual self-restraint.

with—Greek, "in."

braided hair—literally, "plaits," that is, plaited hair: probably with the "gold and pearls" intertwined (1Pe 3:3). Such gaud is characteristic of the spiritual harlot (Re 17:4).

 

*************

 Just as a total aside, I'll suggest that good undergarments can help sometimes with how clothes lie on you. And the fact that you're beautiful and endowed, well OWN it.  Always cracks me up to hear men say Esther was sinning when she got beautiful to win the king...  :thumbup:

 

 

[SadieMarie]

See, I actually value the virtue of modesty - but to me it has NOTHING to do with what you wear.

 

It has to do with being gracious, with not pushing yourself front and center every single opportunity, with acknowledging your own limitations, with living in a manner that is not ostentatious...

 

Nothing to do with cleavage in my mind.

This is how I have always thought of the word too. It has always been the opposite of bragging and grandstanding, not the opposite of dressing sexily or provocatively.

[jmama]

nm

 

[PrairieSong]

I agree with those of you who said it has little to do with clothing...although I think clothing choice is part of it..but only a part. Modesty is an attitude of the heart..not being overly flashy or loud, not needing to be center stage, respecting others and yourself. I have never been around the patriarchy movement much at all. I suspect a few homeschooling families we did sports with may have leaned that way but most did not. It is nothing I grew up with.

[marbel]

I don't understand labeling someone as "slutty" based on their clothes??  Is that the same line of thinking as "she asked for it?"

 

 

I'm not the poster you quoted but I don't think it's the same at all.  

 

People send messages with their clothing.   For example, I know a young man who would like to date a certain young woman.  She is not inclined to date him.   Why not?  He dresses like a slob.  He is aggressively sloppy - unkempt hair, super baggy pants, shoes falling apart.  He is not suffering from extreme poverty.  He just doesn't care.  The message he sends is:  I don't care.   The woman he would like to date is a professional.  She always looks nice - not flashy, she is modest in the sense of not calling undue attention to herself.  She isn't someone who cares too much about her appearance, but she cares enough to look clean and nice.   If this young man doesn't care enough to even comb his hair (forget about getting it cut), how much is he going to care about her?

 

So with a woman who dresses in a "slutty" way... she is sending a message with her clothing.  Her message is that she is s*xy and she wants people to know it.  It's not "asking for it" in terms of rape. Men will interpret her dress as a way that she is seeking their attention.   Not rape. I am not excusing rape.  I am saying that because of the way she is dressed, men may feel she wants their attention. 

 

I used to spend a lot of time in nightclubs.  Women would dress in short, tight, revealing clothing, and carry themselves a certain way in order to be asked to dance and to be offered drinks.  They were not asking to be s*xually assaulted.  But they were definitely asking for male attention.  It was obvious! 

 

Which is really what the poster jmama is quoting said.   I should have multi-quoted! 

 

ETA: I see the post I quoted has been deleted.  So perhaps I misunderstood that whole exchange.

[Katy]

It's nice to hear that most of you have exactly the same opinion as me.  Nice to know I'm not the strange one.  :lol:

 

 

Who harps on you about modesty?  I have never had that happen or even heard of it.

 

No one recently, but when I was younger I went to some very conservative charismatic & pentacostal churches where modesty was a ridiculously frequent topic, frequently as a way for insecure women to establish social dominance above other women.

 

 

I'm not sure if you're talking to a specific poster or in general, but growing up, I had plenty of people "harp" about modesty: my parents, various churches, and even schools (all very patriarchal, btw). It probably has to do with what kind of circles you run in, whether or not you've had to desk with this.

 

yes, patriarchal circles.

 

 

I think the OP said people harp on her about it.  I assumed she was not talking about her parents or her religious teachers, who are within their rights and duties to make mention of modesty if pertinent.

 

It was more a matter of churches I attended as a college student/young adult.

 

 

I'm sorry you were the object of such treatment in a church!   :(   From what I understand, in certain parts of the country at a certain point in time (the last 50 years) RED was a taboo color.  So, believe it or not, it might have been that some people in the church were at some point preached to about not wearing red and were thus shocked at your otherwise very modest dress.   :glare:  

 

We're running into this issue with trying to teach our dd.  I grew up IFB (independent fundamental baptist) and the culture has shifted RADICALLY.  What's becoming obvious is people had so many arguments about it that were *relative* rather than based on absolutes.  They said it was because it was just what women wore, and then what women wore shifted.  They said it was because the KJV said dress (yes, this is what I grew up with!) and then NASB and ESV took over.   :lol:  They said it was because we shouldn't lead men into sin, and then we realized men were preaching that as a cover-up for their OWN sin and sexual scandals.   :thumbdown:

 

Thank you!  I'd be interested to hear how the culture has shifted...  and how on earth did red become so taboo?

[liber]

 

nm

 

 

I saw your question before you deleted it.

 

My answer is no.

[albeto.]

Unpopular answer:

 

I think "modesty" as used in this context (context of dress and behavior) is a buzzword that functions to encourage women to internalize a particular patriarchal ideology. It's a means of introducing shame in response to natural sexuality, regardless of intent or behavior. Just the mere presence of existing sexuality is enough to inspire the concept. If one looks to various cultures, one will find different notions of what is socially appropriate dress and behavior in public, what features inspire a sexual attraction. There exists no universal understanding, no universal law that explains it. It is simply, and only, an attempt at control. 

 

I found this article, written by an awesome young woman, Madison Kimrey, to be spot. freakin. on.

 

In part:

 

 

 I have a lot of guy friends, some of whom aren’t gay, and I have never once caught them looking at my body parts during a conversation nor have any of them tried to touch me inappropriately. Even if I’m going out on the weekend and decide to wear something completely baddastical, my friends are the ones who will put the smackdown on anyone who tries to act on any “impure thoughts†they might have.

 

I owe this to the fact that my bullshit tolerance is below the 3% threshold and I refuse to hang out with idiots. The men in my life all have mothers and sisters and girlfriends. The women in their lives have had open conversations with them about how to treat and support women, and they are genuinely interested in doing just that. Sure, the ones who like women sometimes have the pure and honorable thought that a woman they see is attractive and sometimes they even fantasize, but they know how to act appropriately toward those women and respect their boundaries.

 

This summarizes my friends, my husband, my children. I wish others could feel this security with their friends. I wish boys didn't grow up being taught that thighs are a conduit through which sin enters the soul. I wish girls didn't grow up conditioned to think their every step is being scrutinized by everyone. I wish young adults didn't feel guilty for having unconventional sexual fantasies. I wish older adults didn't miss out on enriching, exciting, inspiring sexual behaviors because conforming to patriarchal standards keep the convenient, but unnecessarily and unethically imposed, guilt at a safe distance. 

[Crimson Wife]

Modest clothing can be stylish and flattering to the wearer. I don't see red as an inherently immodest color. For example, this dress from Modcloth looks like would fit my personal standards of modesty (assuming that I purchased the correct size): http://www.modcloth.com/shop/dresses/about-the-artist-dress-in-red

 

I've got an hourglass figure and I don't think that being modest means I have to totally hide the fact that I've got curves. But I do think it means trying to avoid provocative clothing unless I'm dressing for TeAtime with DH. I aim for "cute", "pretty", "elegant", etc. rather than "s*xy" in my outfits.

 

 

[Guest]

Modest clothing can be stylish and flattering to the wearer. I don't see red as an inherently immodest color. For example, this dress from Modcloth looks like would fit my personal standards of modesty (assuming that I purchased the correct size): http://www.modcloth.com/shop/dresses/about-the-artist-dress-in-red

 

And maybe you have to be of a certain age to get a laugh out of this, but "someone should have had a word with Ronald and Nancy Reagan.  She wore red alllll the time, because he loved it.  :0) 

 

****PLEASE**** don't go all political on this.  It's a sweet story and not about politics.

[Veritaserum]

I was taught the message that "modesty" meant "covering up so that you don't tempt the boys/men" with some window dressing of "self-respect" to make it more palatable. I live in an area where this is the predominate attitude. However, women are also told to be attractive enough to catch man's attention because marriage is pushed as essential (in a religious sense as an ordinance). The dual conflicting messages of "be modest/don't be a slut" and "be attractive so that a man will marry you" create a weird and tricky space for women to navigate. The culture that supports these messages spurs the creation of things like the chain of stores in my area called "Sexy Modest." Yep. It's a head-scratcher because "modest" here most definitely means "covered up because women's bodies are too tempting."

[jmama]

I'm not the poster you quoted but I don't think it's the same at all.  

 

People send messages with their clothing.   For example, I know a young man who would like to date a certain young woman.  She is not inclined to date him.   Why not?  He dresses like a slob.  He is aggressively sloppy - unkempt hair, super baggy pants, shoes falling apart.  He is not suffering from extreme poverty.  He just doesn't care.  The message he sends is:  I don't care.   The woman he would like to date is a professional.  She always looks nice - not flashy, she is modest in the sense of not calling undue attention to herself.  She isn't someone who cares too much about her appearance, but she cares enough to look clean and nice.   If this young man doesn't care enough to even comb his hair (forget about getting it cut), how much is he going to care about her?

 

So with a woman who dresses in a "slutty" way... she is sending a message with her clothing.  Her message is that she is s*xy and she wants people to know it.  It's not "asking for it" in terms of rape. Men will interpret her dress as a way that she is seeking their attention.   Not rape. I am not excusing rape.  I am saying that because of the way she is dressed, men may feel she wants their attention. 

 

I used to spend a lot of time in nightclubs.  Women would dress in short, tight, revealing clothing, and carry themselves a certain way in order to be asked to dance and to be offered drinks.  They were not asking to be s*xually assaulted.  But they were definitely asking for male attention.  It was obvious! 

 

Which is really what the poster jmama is quoting said.   I should have multi-quoted! 

 

ETA: I see the post I quoted has been deleted.  So perhaps I misunderstood that whole exchange.

 

 

I deleted my other post because it seemed a tad rude when I looked at it again.  Not my intention.  I just truly don't get the idea of judging people by their clothes.

 

I also can't see the situation you mentioned as being comparable.  Someone who is unkempt, messy, and a "slob" as you put it shouldn't be in the same category as a women who puts on a dress that she feels makes her look nice, flatters her body, etc.  I think most of us just dress(when dressing up) in what makes us feel pretty.  I really don't care if someone gives me attention over what I'm wearing, that's their problem, not mine.  Just my opinion :001_smile:

[Veritaserum]

Modest clothing can be stylish and flattering to the wearer. I don't see red as an inherently immodest color. For example, this dress from Modcloth looks like would fit my personal standards of modesty (assuming that I purchased the correct size): http://www.modcloth.com/shop/dresses/about-the-artist-dress-in-red

 

I've got an hourglass figure and I don't think that being modest means I have to totally hide the fact that I've got curves. But I do think it means trying to avoid provocative clothing unless I'm dressing for TeAtime with DH. I aim for "cute", "pretty", "elegant", etc. rather than "s*xy" in my outfits.

I have an hourglass figure as well. I prefer fitted/tailored clothing as looser fits leave me feeling unkempt and fat. However, I've been shamed for wearing fitted clothing (not tight) because my bOOks, waist, and hips were not obscured. Eventually I determined that what I wear is my own business and I cannot control other people's reactions or opinions of my attire. Someone could look at me and think "elegant" or "sexy" or "pretty" or "ugly" or "weird" or whatever without having any understanding of what adjective I would use to describe myself in a particular outfit. I dress to please myself. And it's liberating. :-)

[Laura Corin]

The only context in which I hear 'modesty', outside of these boards, is in the sense of 'not boasting'. 

 

L

[Katy]

...I'm sartorially boring, so I'm not a good example of stylish, but I have beautiful, stylish friends and daughters, who wear tailored, lovely outfits, with a range of accessories and styles... no burlap bags!  There is no message to look unattractive, but there is a cultural norm about what range of expression is considered appropriate and what is outside that range.

 

 

...but, on the other hand, I am bothered by the implication that my boundaries are inherently 'patriarchal', 'misogynist', and/or an attempt to control or disguise female sexuality.  [NOTE: **I do not want to engage in a religious debate in this thread**]

 

How much skin one covers isn't an indictment in either direction.  That I hold where I do in my choice of attire has exactly as little *inherent* connection to my sexuality and acceptance or lack thereof of it as the choices of someone who wears less fabric than I do.

 

There are cultures whose 'modesty' boundaries might be rooted in such motives, but I don't think it fair to assume the motives from the amount of 'coverage'.

 

Eliana,

 

I was asking about the particular sort of "modesty" that insists women look as unattractive as possible because any sort of beauty is considered evil.  I suspect it comes from a particular brand of Christianity because that's the only place I've seen it except for in descriptions of Muslim beliefs of why women should be fully hidden.   It seems to imply that both women's bodies are inherently evil and that men are helpless to control themselves.  I've met Muslim men who really believed that simply hearing the voices of any Muslim women who they weren't related to could condemn them to hell - women were just too tempting (or Muslim women at least).

 

Since my only exposure to a Jewish sense of modesty is what I read in Wendy Shalit's book, where modesty was more a celebration of the mystery of hidden beauty rather that the responsibility to hide every aspect of yourself that is attractive, I'm not certain but I think your sense of modesty is more a matter of appropriateness than of creating sin where there is none.  The very fact that it's okay for Orthodox Jewish women to look glamorous and attractive, even while being fully covered, demonstrates that it is not the sort of thing I was talking about. I personally find that stylish Orthodox Jewish women can be incredibly attractive - those I've seen are frequently sophisticated, stylish, covered but tailored to reveal their shape, and perhaps it was the early influence of Wendy's book that inspired it, but I'm more drawn to that style (classy, put together but not trying too hard), than maybe any other. 

[marbel]

<snip>

I also can't see the situation you mentioned as being comparable.  Someone who is unkempt, messy, and a "slob" as you put it shouldn't be in the same category as a women who puts on a dress that she feels makes her look nice, flatters her body, etc.  I think most of us just dress(when dressing up) in what makes us feel pretty.  I really don't care if someone gives me attention over what I'm wearing, that's their problem, not mine.  Just my opinion :001_smile:

 

I see what you mean.  I don't disagree with you exactly.   I have just seen so many young women set out to "entice" men by wearing s*xy clothing that I don't always see it as just wanting to feel pretty.   I don't mean I am interpreting their clothing that way, I mean they have stated they are intentionally dressing that way for that purpose.  It may be a small sample of people (friends/coworkers of mine from the past) though I can't really imagine that my circle of acquaintances was unique in that way.   When I look at some clothing ads it seems that message is still going out  there:  dress this way, girls, if you want the boys to look.

[MFG]

And maybe you have to be of a certain age to get a laugh out of this, but "someone should have had a word with Ronald and Nancy Reagan. She wore red alllll the time, because he loved it. :0)

 

****PLEASE**** don't go all political on this. It's a sweet story and not about politics.

It is clear I am of that age also. "Tailored red suit" immediately says "Nancy Reagan" to me. And I have a difficult time understanding how anyone would link that look to "immodest"!

[Kate in Arabia]

Eliana,

 

I was asking about the particular sort of "modesty" that insists women look as unattractive as possible because any sort of beauty is considered evil.  I suspect it comes from a particular brand of Christianity because that's the only place I've seen it except for in descriptions of Muslim beliefs of why women should be fully hidden.   It seems to imply that both women's bodies are inherently evil and that men are helpless to control themselves.  I've met Muslim men who really believed that simply hearing the voices of any Muslim women who they weren't related to could condemn them to hell - women were just too tempting (or Muslim women at least).

 

If you are going to be careful in stating a "particular brand" of Christianity, should you not also say a "particular brand" of Muslim?  Muslims are not unanimous in their beliefs towards modesty.

 

[Word Nerd]

No offense, but that looks like something my great grandmother would have worn.  I don't think I could pull it off.  And it would not look flattering on me at all.

 

There are lots of retro-style dresses like that at ModCloth. I don't personally like the frills along the front of that particular dress, but I love the style otherwise. I have this one. I don't think I could pull off a red dress in any style—I'm way too pale.

[6packofun]

I find it interesting that those who have been told they are dressed immodestly (which I don't think is anyone's job except one's parent or closest sibling or friend, in private, in love) many times feel the need to comment on the attractiveness of the person or people who made the rude comment.  Apparently, only ugly and poorly endowed women have anything to say about modesty?  lol  That one would comment on another person's outward appearance at ALL shows something of the heart and the heart, I believe, is where true modesty starts.

 

Great article here:  http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/08/toward-a-new-understanding-of-modesty/278652/

Great quote from the above:  modesty is about a person, male or female, choosing to foster an inner spirit of humility and dignity, and communicating that in outward, culturally contextualized symbols of dress and behavior.

 

I believe modesty cannot be decoupled from humility or dignity.  Those are the key words in that quote, IMO.  So as we talk of other women and our speech enters territory that is not humble or dignified, our words are less modest than whatever that other lady is wearing or not wearing.  Or what WE are wearing.  That includes speaking poorly of someone who happens to believe that you weren't dressed modestly.  Maybe she's right, maybe she's not.  But calling her drab or unattractive (to who?) in the conversation tends to make me question motives, where true modesty--or not--lives. 

 

A truly modest person, modest in *spirit*, if called out on some supposedly outward immodesty would search her heart, her motives and perhaps even ask a trusted female friend about it.  An immodest person (in spirit) doesn't care what anyone else thinks and, well, they can just suck it.  LOL  There are some cases where a woman wears something too tight, too revealing, etc. and she really has no clue.  But this is where a friend can come along side her, in love, and maybe help her out.  I've had to do this for my own daughter and she was grateful.  (We're built differently!  lol)  That sort of thing is tricky, not always the right choice, and why I think men, in general, should stay the heck out of the conversation.  lol

[FaithManor]

I was taught the message that "modesty" meant "covering up so that you don't tempt the boys/men" with some window dressing of "self-respect" to make it more palatable. I live in an area where this is the predominate attitude. However, women are also told to be attractive enough to catch man's attention because marriage is pushed as essential (in a religious sense as an ordinance). The dual conflicting messages of "be modest/don't be a slut" and "be attractive so that a man will marry you" create a weird and tricky space for women to navigate. The culture that supports these messages spurs the creation of things like the chain of stores in my area called "Sexy Modest." Yep. It's a head-scratcher because "modest" here most definitely means "covered up because women's bodies are too tempting."

This is exactly what it means in several churches in our area.

 

We stay away from these churches. It can be hard in this rural area to avoid the families because many of them join 4-H. As leaders, this means that sometimes we have to deal with it.

[6packofun]

Also, I wanted to add that I believe modesty is about both oneself AND others.  I own a few funky pieces of clothing which, based on cut and coverage alone, should be perfectly fine for wearing to church.  But I don't wear them there.  Why?  Because they are wild, uber-colorful and possibly *distracting*.  Seriously, I distract MYSELF when wearing the one top.  LOL  So I self-limit out of love for my friends and family because we're at church to meet with God and learn about Him...not get mesmerized by the swirls and possibly hallucination-inducing design of my clothes. 

 

(It's really not that dramatic, but you get my drift.  lol)

[Library Momma]

Modest clothing can be stylish and flattering to the wearer. I don't see red as an inherently immodest color. For example, this dress from Modcloth looks like would fit my personal standards of modesty (assuming that I purchased the correct size): http://www.modcloth.com/shop/dresses/about-the-artist-dress-in-red

 

 

 

 

The only person I could see pulling this off has Bette Page hair, Tattoos and is competing on Cupcake Wars.

[Word Nerd]

The only person I could see pulling this off has Bette Page hair, Tattoos and is competing on Cupcake Wars.

 

Did you see the user-submitted photos at the bottom? I think they all look fine in it, and they all made the dress their own.

[FaithManor]

Katy, you must have encountered a form of extremism within Islam, and just like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion, there will always be extreme elements that do not represent mainstream religious thought, because I have Muslim friends and this is not what the men and women believe.

 

The voice thing definitely doesn't apply because we all eat out together and enjoy the company in a co-ed setting.

[albeto.]

Eliana,

 

I was asking about the particular sort of "modesty" that insists women look as unattractive as possible because any sort of beauty is considered evil.  I suspect it comes from a particular brand of Christianity because that's the only place I've seen it except for in descriptions of Muslim beliefs of why women should be fully hidden.   It seems to imply that both women's bodies are inherently evil and that men are helpless to control themselves.  I've met Muslim men who really believed that simply hearing the voices of any Muslim women who they weren't related to could condemn them to hell - women were just too tempting (or Muslim women at least).

 

Since my only exposure to a Jewish sense of modesty is what I read in Wendy Shalit's book, where modesty was more a celebration of the mystery of hidden beauty rather that the responsibility to hide every aspect of yourself that is attractive, I'm not certain but I think your sense of modesty is more a matter of appropriateness than of creating sin where there is none.  The very fact that it's okay for Orthodox Jewish women to look glamorous and attractive, even while being fully covered, demonstrates that it is not the sort of thing I was talking about. I personally find that stylish Orthodox Jewish women can be incredibly attractive - those I've seen are frequently sophisticated, stylish, covered but tailored to reveal their shape, and perhaps it was the early influence of Wendy's book that inspired it, but I'm more drawn to that style (classy, put together but not trying too hard), than maybe any other. 

 

I would venture to say no one who advocates "modesty" as a rule of thumb, or as an inspiration, does so because they want women to look as unattractive as possible, or that any sort of beauty is considered evil. I've only heard a kind of sincere appeal to virtues such as "dignity" and "humility" and "honor." When I was a proponent of such a thing, I only saw it in such positive light. Now, this is only my opinion and the opinions of people I knew, loved, and respected, but it wasn't a fridge thought by any means. Modesty, we were led to believe, protects one from reducing their core value to that of mere commodity. I've heard this kind of argument from Christian, Jewish, and Muslim believers, and I don't have any reason to believe this isn't a rather common appeal. 

 

I think it gets tricky when we see this appeal in a more objective light. The idea that a person could be rendered a mere commodity by virtue of their sexual potential is arguably the kind of control with which non-proponents of modesty cannot identify. After having left my conservative religious beliefs for example, I eventually came to embrace those values that embodied for me the very virtues I think all humans share - justice, kindredship, honesty, compassion, appeal to the senses, desire to learn and be creative, and the like. Proponents of modesty, in my experience, suggest these virtues are better met through a kind of humility that is defined in relationship to society, most notably to men. This relationship is heavily focused on sexuality or the potential of sexuality (as we saw with the teen kicked out of her prom). The very idea that sexuality is something that could "trigger" a negative reaction is a worthwhile idea to explore, but the idea that the onus should be on the woman (or gay man) to prevent this possibility is what I object to. It reflects the notion that problems can be avoided by manipulating the environment to support the individual, and I object to the idea that women and gay men are relegated to part of the environment. 

 

I'll give you one last example. When my child was young and we didn't know why his behavior was so challenging, we'd do whatever we could to prevent the meltdown. Perhaps if he can find his toy right away he won't get frustrated and meltdown. I'll just clean up after him if he forgets, or is too upset to do it himself. Perhaps if we don't go out and do errands when he is in an irritable mood, he won't meltdown in public. I'll just wait until he's in a good mood to do what I need in town, or do without. Perhaps if the neighbor children don't touch him he won't scream at them. I'll just make a rule that everyone has to be 5 feet away unless he comes up to them. In other words, I worked to control the environment to prevent unwanted behaviors until I realized this was an impossible goal. A child who cannot learn to adapt to uncomfortable situations will grow up to be an adult who cannot adapt to uncomfortable situations, and that would be remiss of my responsibilities as a parent, in my opinion. I see "modesty" in the same light - an attempt to control the environment to prevent unwanted behaviors rather than taking on the difficult task of learning how to adapt to uncomfortable situations. To complicate the matter more, I don't think many of these situations should feel uncomfortable, but children are conditioned to respond that way, and so grow into adults who assume that's normal and denotes a valuable moral code. That women adopt these ideas is like the neighborhood children adopting the 5 feet rule. They shouldn't have to, but if they do, and if they convince themselves it's the safest and therefore best thing, then they are used like props in the environment to ensure the emotional comfort of the child whose subjective comfort alone is the measure of "right" and "wrong." But even if the children gladly embrace this rule, it doesn't negate the idea that they're complicit in giving the child the authority to control his environment (including them and their position in it). 

[Library Momma]

Did you see the user-submitted photos at the bottom? I think they all look fine in it, and they all made the dress their own.

 

 

Retro chic is cute - Some of the women look a little too costumey.  I think that someone walking around the grocery store with a retro dress, red pumps and a giant hair bow would probably get more stares than someone in a cutoff shorts and a tank top.  

 

I never really think of  modesty as an issue for adults.  There is appropriateness, like other posters have mentioned, bikini at the beach, ok - bikini in the office, not so much.  That really varies according to the community you live in.

 

Sometimes with adolescent girls they either do understand their bodies well enough yet or they do not understand what is appropriate in different situations.  If a girl knows there is a dress code pertaining to the length of her shorts and she willingly wears shorts too short anyway, it is not about modesty but about defiance.  If a young girl really needs to wear a bra under her white tee-shirt and doesn't realize it, then that is a different story.

[Veritaserum]

A truly modest person, modest in *spirit*, if called out on some supposedly outward immodesty would search her heart, her motives and perhaps even ask a trusted female friend about it. An immodest person (in spirit) doesn't care what anyone else thinks and, well, they can just suck it. LOL There are some cases where a woman wears something too tight, too revealing, etc. and she really has no clue. But this is where a friend can come along side her, in love, and maybe help her out. I've had to do this for my own daughter and she was grateful. (We're built differently! lol) That sort of thing is tricky, not always the right choice, and why I think men, in general, should stay the heck out of the conversation. lol

 

Maybe there are people that clueless about whether or not something is inappropriately revealing. It still isn't appropriate for someone to give unsolicited clothing advice. If you've never been slut-shamed for wearing a tailored blouse or some other equally appropriate clothing item, perhaps you lack the life experience to speak to a person's motivations for not gratefully and graciously accepting an uninvited critique of her attire--especially when that critique suggests or explicitly states that she is sexually provocative/slutty.

[Katy]

If you are going to be careful in stating a "particular brand" of Christianity, should you not also say a "particular brand" of Muslim?  Muslims are not unanimous in their beliefs towards modesty.

 

 

Yes, of course you are right.  My apologies.  Those particular men were from Yemen, and made it clear they were only in the US for school, and that they hated everything about our culture.  There was a Mosque in my neighborhood growing up that was completely the opposite.  They'd invite people in for dinners during Ramadan, built a playground for neighborhood children, and did a lot of charity work.

 

 

I find it interesting that those who have been told they are dressed immodestly (which I don't think is anyone's job except one's parent or closest sibling or friend, in private, in love) many times feel the need to comment on the attractiveness of the person or people who made the rude comment.  Apparently, only ugly and poorly endowed women have anything to say about modesty?  lol  That one would comment on another person's outward appearance at ALL shows something of the heart and the heart, I believe, is where true modesty starts.

 

Great article here:  http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/08/toward-a-new-understanding-of-modesty/278652/

Great quote from the above:  modesty is about a person, male or female, choosing to foster an inner spirit of humility and dignity, and communicating that in outward, culturally contextualized symbols of dress and behavior.

 

Since I'm one of the people who said something like that, I'll address it.  In my case, in both of the very worst instances these were women who were trying to look as unattractive as possible, considered it a virtue, and I think as a form of trying to establish themselves at the top of the social hierarchy put down anyone who they considered to look better than them.   Part hen-pecking, part jealousy I presume.

 

 

Katy, you must have encountered a form of extremism within Islam, and just like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or any other religion, there will always be extreme elements that do not represent mainstream religious thought, because I have Muslim friends and this is not what the men and women believe.

 

The voice thing definitely doesn't apply because we all eat out together and enjoy the company in a co-ed setting. The Quran, like the Bible, the Torah, etc. does have a LOT of opinions on interpretation and many Muslim believers are moderate.  I could also say this of the Jewish believers that I have known. While I am aware of Hassidism and other forms that are very strict, I don't think that represents the mainstream thought on Judaism.

 

Yes, of course you are correct.  I wasn't very sensitive in how I worded that (insomnia last night).  I apologize.

[Veritaserum]

This is exactly what it means in several churches in our area.

 

We stay away from these churches. It can be hard in this rural area to avoid the families because many of them join 4-H. As leaders, this means that sometimes we have to deal with it.

It's everywhere here because the predominate religion heavily, heavily pushes (especially female) modesty and "virtue." I was born and raised in this religion and I have witnessed the modesty/virtue rhetoric ramp up in the past decade or so. It disturbs me quite a lot. It's a benevolently patriarchal religion: Women are placed on pedestals and told how spiritually superior they are to men while this supposed spiritual superiority is also used as justification for male-only ordination (because ordination elevates the men to the level of women--if women were ordained, the men would never catch up). There's also doublespeak about husbands and wives being equal while the husband is still the leader/presider of the home. My husband is a believer in most aspects of the religion (including some body and sex-shaming aspects that greatly concern and disturb me), but he does not adopt the husband-as-the-leader model. I could not survive a patriarchal marriage.

[Katy]

I would venture to say no one who advocates "modesty" as a rule of thumb, or as an inspiration, does so because they want women to look as unattractive as possible, or that any sort of beauty is considered evil. I've only heard a kind of sincere appeal to virtues such as "dignity" and "humility" and "honor." When I was a proponent of such a thing, I only saw it in such positive light. Now, this is only my opinion and the opinions of people I knew, loved, and respected, but it wasn't a fridge thought by any means. Modesty, we were led to believe, protects one from reducing their core value to that of mere commodity. I've heard this kind of argument from Christian, Jewish, and Muslim believers, and I don't have any reason to believe this isn't a rather common appeal.

 

While you definitely have the traditional definition of modest down in my book, there are conservative circles, those who teach something a bit closer to ATI perhaps, who definitely do teach that women should not be attractive so as not to tempt men.  That's the sort of definition I was asking about here.