Another Inlaws Thread - UPDATE post #56

[abba12]

I saw a number of extended family threads come up recently and thought maybe someone would have some perspective on mine. Mine is made complicated because we don't *think* they're doing any of this maliciously, they are just that clueless and pigheaded that they see nothing wrong with this. 

 

To give some background my husband grew up as one of 8 kids in a patriarchal family. We don't inherently disagree with this family structure and we know many families who manage it very well, but we are very aware of it's possible pitfalls/misuses and unfortunately he was in one of the families where it all goes very wrong. His dads word was law and his house was void of much emotion. If the kids had an argument, they wern't taught to deal with conflict, they were all spanked and the argument simply 'went away'. There was no opinion outside of FILs opinion, and if you did hold an alternative, you never ever spoke about it. The children spent a lot of time together and had fun together, but nothing beyond a superficial level. They have begun to realize as each has reached adulthood that, actually, they didn't know the first thing about each others feelings, thoughts, dreams, etc. (Most of the children are also working on these things and slowly working on turning into wonderful adults, but my husband was the 2nd child, and the youngest is still only 13, so we have a long time before many of them begin truly changing and acting independently)

 

The children were taught total and complete unquestioning obedience. I know houses with one child which were noisier than this house was when all 8 were still younger, because any noise bothers FIL  The children, in my opinion, lost the ability to form independent thoughts and desire (except for one who went to the other extreme). They lack/lackeded motivation and confidence to do much of anything really. DH has changed a LOT in our 4 years of marriage, and is finally seeing a psychologist who is also helping a lot. He is one of the most driven, caring, and thoughtful (both emotionally and analytically) people I know, he just needed some help unlocking it. It's been a long journey but last year he was finally able to look objectively and see some of the major issues in his upbrining (there were also educational and health related issues but those aren't relevant here) and make conscious choices regarding our own parenting to take our family down a completely different path. But he has still never openly disagreed with his father on anything big or meaningful, and isn't ready to yet, which is part of why our issues with them now go unresolved. No one in that family has ever gotten to the stage of actually arguing with FIL since I've known them.

 

I was never truly accepted because I was too 'different', coming from a very different life, upbringing and culture. We never did receive their blessing to marry, and when we have confronted them once about my acceptance, we were told it was our fault because his parents felt uninvolved in their sons courtship (I was the first girlfriend among any of the siblings). They feel DH should have involved them more (we never chose not to involve them, and from the beginning I spent time at his house very regularly, getting involved in all the kids birthdays etc. The problem was that we chose to date during the same time period that FILs business began to collapse, and they were preoccupied, but as far as he is concerned, the timing is our fault and we should have waited until things were more stable). When my husband went to them for permission to date me, they didn't raise concerns about my lifestyle, they never asked about my beliefs, they never questioned our ages, and they never brought up my vastly different family culture. What DID they voice objection to? I am legally blind (and at the time we were waiting for confirmation that I did not have a secondary condition which we discovered my brother had, which would have made my vision degenerative, as his is, instead of stable, as mine appears to be). FIL felt this would be too much of a burden and responsibility for his son and advised him to reconsider. When we announced our engagement, his only voiced objection was that money was too tight, it was a bad time to marry financially, and we should wait a couple of years. We didn't, but my husband was absolutely crushed that we received blessing from my parents and genuine, loving advice (non-christian, going through a divorce themselves, and I was only 17. They weren't happy about the decision, but they treated us as adults, and had real, concerned conversations about our plans and relationship)  and not from his (who raised him to follow a courtship model and placed the concept of family as the most important, he was 20)

 

I have never been able to voice an alternative opinion at their house (do you know what it's like to have 10 people tell you, all at once, why you are an idiot for believing anything other than the family opinion?) and they have never had real, meaningful conversations with me. I accepted this as a different family culture and just dealt with it, but they don't really know who I am at all. They never come to our house, even thought when we first married I was told by MIL that they wanted us to come to their house for dinner every 7-10 days (yes, exact words), the occasional time they do FIL makes a big show of how terrible my cleanliness is and how different my food is (his house is kept absolutely spotless by his wife and daughters and he doesn't eat vegetables, like, at all) They have never just helped us out because we needed it, even during my hellish pregnancies we never received so much as a frozen meal unless we asked to take something home from a dinner (and I was informed in no uncertain terms that the meal was NOT for me, it was for my husband, since I was too sick to cook I was obviously too sick to eat it), and when we have expressed sadness about this, it's our fault for not specifically asking them to do one thing or another (in my family, you don't ask for specific help, people who love and care about you will see your needs and volunteer themselves, asking is considered rude because if a person could do something they would offer, so asking them when they haven't offered will just make them feel guilty, and either they do it from guilt, or they have to say no directly which is upsetting to them. Of course you might ask them to babysit specifically, but only after they have given an open invitation for babysitting, etc.). Again, I am trying to accept this as being a cultural thing, and when it was just me it was effecting, it was much easier to overlook. MIL complains I don't want a relationship with her (no, I just don't know how to form a relationship that does not involve emotional sharing, offers of help and support, and real conversations without hiding a differing view. I have tried to connect on her level, but I just don't understand how, and I can't help but be hurt by her complete indifference and lack of support. I can't even go to her for advice to make her feel valued, because apparently her children were amazing angels who slept through the night since birth and didn't begin teething until after their 1st birthday, at which point they were also completely placid and obedient)

 

But now we have two little girls and one on the way, and the oldest is old enough to begin picking up on the issues. Christmas was a nightmare and I am so lost as to how to deal with this. We are raising our children differently to his parents, and they simply do not respect our decisions at all. Our toddler is very well behaved compared to many kids, but we do not teach blind obedience, so she is less obedient than his parents expect and desire. They think we should be using a playpen, and since we wont, they expect the children to just sit in a corner for the entire visit with the same box of duplo blocks and be perfectly content and not touch anything. I don't expect them to childproof the house, but the children cannot touch ANYTHING expect their toys. Even the magnets on the fridge are off limits. The list of house rules used to be manageable and we respected it and respected their home, but it is growing, and growing, every visit. They spoonfed their toddlers because they didn't want the kids to make a mess (even though their flooring is completely concrete) and since we refuse to spoonfeed our almost 3 year old, and we prefer to give our 15mo old finger foods, we have been informed we must completely clean up after them (not that I mind cleaning up after them, I usually wiped up, it's the intention behind it and the pattern it is indicative of that bothers me). On christmas, FIL even told us not to put so much on their plates. They may not take any food or drink away from the dining table, not even a chip or a water bottle with a lid They are ignored almost completely by everyone except MIL who will spend a few minutes with them, and two daughters who try to play with them, but since the girls are responsible for all hospitality related jobs, they don't have time. The uncles would rather go play computer games. They put up the christmas tree and the children were not allowed to touch it, as if it was some precious item (it was not some fancy decor thing, it was thrown together and mostly cheapo ornaments from the 2 dollar store) All of these seem like little things, and they are. None of them would bother us on their own, but this is just a sample of the huge and growing list of things they are not allowed to do there, and it's the sheer magnitude of rules and 'if your kids won't do what we expect we will make a rule to prevent it' attitude. 

 

Even the rules would be managable, but MIL, FIL, and various aunts and uncles all feel they have the right to tell off the children, even when I am present. I once had one of the aunts tell DD1 not to do something while she was SITTING ON MY LAP. FIL doesn't speak to them unless it's to tell them off, and recently there was an incident which I was already getting up and walking over to deal with when FIL YELLED at my 15mo. DD1 wont drink from a cup there because I told her to be careful because it was full. The rest of the table all decided to chime in, reiterating what I had already said, convincing her she wasn't capable of doing it because everyone around her was giving her a warning. Now she will only use straws there.

 

At christmas the kids were seen as nothing but a burden. No one talked to them, so we had to be with them, and no one came over to talk to us, almost as if we were being punished for having to actively parent our children. The christmas presents, once unwrapped, were left on the floor in the childrens play area, and they were expected not to touch them. One toy had to be taken away because they might bump into something, and one uncle thought it would be funny to give DD1 a toy from a christmas cracker that she was instantly told off by FIL for using (it was a yoyo, she began swinging it, what else was she supposed to do with it?) The presents were a big problem because DD2 got lots of toys including a special baby pool boat floatie. DD1 got presents, but there were things like a swimming vest and a beach towel and books. DD1 was amazingly gracious for a 2yo but she was visibly upset because, come on, a 2yo doesn't care about a beach towel, she just wants the awesome boat or the singing doctor monkey thing. The inlaws seemed to have absolutely no concept of this (I also received basically nothing, even though all the adults exchanged gifts and the other inlaw, my SILs husband, received items as well. I also suspect a number of my husbands gifts were mistakenly given to his father with the same name, because we were the only 'children' who did not get a bag from the aunt and uncle, or a card with money from his grandma)

 

We finally got DD1 calmed down and excited about using her little water gun and vest while DD2 was in the floatie boat. We told her those items were her special presents and since DD2 could not share her boat, DD1 didn't have to share her vest and water gun. We are not teaching them universal sharing and DD1 was already so upset and stressed from the day she needed something to make her feel special and excited. Well DD1 asked FIL to fill it for her. FIL proceeded to fill it, play with it, fill it again and give it to DD2. Again, I am so very proud of my daughter, she did not throw a fit, she quietly got out of the pool, sobbing, and came to me. Unfortunately DH was caught off guard and told DD1 off for not sharing instead of FIL off for being an inconsiderate jerk (seriously, would he just hand his 13yo sons christmas present off to one of his other children without even asking him? no.) but DH has since apologised for telling her off instead of FIL. And for me, the kicker was when they decided to set down a plate of cheese and crackers on a low coffee table in the middle of the childrens play area (which is surrounded by the adults couches which the children may not stand on) and just expected the kids not to touch any of the food, and then got all offended when I got up and moved their duplo elsewhere in order to remove them from the temptation of food right in the middle of where they were playing.  

 

I am seeing a difference in DD1 which is worrying me. We went to my fathers house a few days later and DD1 absolutely paniced and began to cry when DD2 touched the christmas tree over there even though she knew from an earlier visit that it was ok to play with gently. When we ate at my fathers house and I asked if she was having fun her first response was '(name) not making mess!', that should not be the first thing which comes to the mind of a 2yo at christmas.

 

There's been plenty of other issues, but it all boils down to a lack of respect. We wont parent the way they parented, and they take it as a personal insult, so they have decided to just treat our children with all the same rules and expectations as they had for their own kids who were raised very differently, and they are just expected to act that way or they can get out. If we want to do something different, fine, but we have to take on ALL of the responsibility for implementing that, because they won't so much as move a special item or deviate even a little from what they want in order to accomodate us. My kids are not unruly, not by a long shot, they just aren't mindless drones that FIL can control, and he can't cope with that.

 

The problem is, confronting them is hard. For one thing, DH will struggle a LOT with it. Secondly, none of the issues are big on their own, I can't get upset at them for not letting the kids touch the fridge, or leave the table, or put their feet on the couches, or whatever, because each rule on it's own is quite reasonable, it's just that most houses do not have ALL of them, and they do not enforce them with the heartlessness that FIL does, without some love and attention to balance it out. Thirdly, they seem to be genuinly clueless, I'm sure FIL didn't intend to take DD1s water gun and upset her, he just didn't think about it. They didn't intend to snub DD1 with the presents, they just don't seem to comprehend that a 3yo doesn't care about a towel and a swim vest, the toys her sister got were 10x better to her. DH even thinks MIL was clueless as to what she was doing when she put the cheese and crackers in the kids play area.

 

But at the same time, I know my daughter is picking up on this and I don't want their issues to affect my kids. I have never seen her display the type of genuine sadness she did on our christmas visit. It wasn't quick tantrums, it was a real emotion associated with memories that she is still talking about and acting upon (for the record, we bought her a special pool boat for a bigger kid, we don't usually think everything has to be fair, but in this instance we decided it was important)

 

Cutting them off isn't an option because of the siblings still living at home and DH still feels very close to them even while being angry with them. Insisting they come to our house where the kids can play with their own things and touch whatever they want isn't an option because his family just wont come. They only live 20 minutes away so only visiting for christmas isn't an option, we get invites over on at least a monthly basis, often more frequently. Confronting them may well cause us to lose the little bit of effort they do put in, and we really don't know how badly FIL will react because... well, no one has ever done it. The whole issue is even further compunded by the fact that FIL no longer attends church and we don't think he even knows what he believes anymore, though he has told us we shouldn't have any more kids. I am trying not to bring myself into this, but the fact is, my mum isn't around, and damn it would be helpful to have a little family support while I am bedridden during pregnancy. But his mum never had any morning sickness (suprise suprise) and she had a friend who threw up every morning on the way to work and she coped fine, so I am just being a wimp and making a big deal of nothing, and I should be cooking and cleaning during my 'good periods'. When I told them I had lost 15% of my body weight within 8 weeks with my first pregnancy, they told me how wonderful that was because now I wouldn't have to worry about losing the baby weight and wouldn't gain too much during pregnancy. 

 

I don't understand how a family which professes to value children so highly can devalue them so much.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Your dh needs to visit them without you or the kids.  This is not a healthy place for your children.  

[Incognito]

I didn't read everything, but my gist is that you find their expectations and rules stifling.  Your kids will have a hard time following them, so keep them away (or take only one at a time, bring an iphone or something that will keep them quiet and busy and not touching anything).  Visit more in the summer when the weather is nice and kids can play outdoors?

 

FWIW, I don't imagine you plan to or would really want to try to change them (that doesn't really work anyways), so you can only really decide how you want to handle it and adjust to make the relationship work for you.  Sorry, it must be hard.

[poppy]

I wouldn't choose to  spend Christmas there, ever again.  Make visits short and sweet. Don't cut them off, keep the relationship open, there is probably some value in it, but don't make it an important part of your family's life.  Definitely NOT Christmas. And visit without the kids as often as possible. Don't take them to a place that makes them feel anxious and unwanted.  If that means your DH solo, so be it.  Your kids have to be your priority.

[Meriwether]

That sounds a lot like my in-laws. We don't go there much anymore. The kids are very relieved.

[trlt]

I feel so bad for your little ones. That has to be so hard on them. I'd have DH go without you or the kids.

[PeachyDoodle]

:grouphug: I'm so sorry. That sounds like a very difficult situation, and you seem to be very young to have all this to deal with.

 

I tend to agree with Jean that if your oldest is already showing so much anxiety it might be best to table visits for awhile. When dh and I were first married, his mother went through a mid-life crisis. (Not sure if those even really exist, but that's the best way I know to describe it.) She was horrible to him, and to me too, really. I told him at that time that I would never, ever prevent him from seeing his mother. But I also told him that once we had children, she would only be allowed to treat them one time the way I had watched her treat him. He is a grown man and can choose to subject himself to her, or not. But it is my job to protect my children, and I will not put them in a situation where they are mistreated.

 

FWIW, I know what you mean by generally clueless. I always thought that about MIL too. It was like she couldn't see far enough past herself to even fathom the effect she had on other people. Fortunately, she came around, and has been quite sweet and helpful to me since the kids were born -- and always good to them. She's still clueless sometimes, though.

[Anne in CA]

I get that it seems that their culture is the problem, but they have character issues that are not good for your children. I do think your dh should still visit his younger siblings at their house, but you and your children should stay home or just drop in for a minute to say hi and then go somewhere else in the neighborhood while dh finishes his visit. If they were genuinely interested in your kids I would feel some compassion, but they are obviously annoyed by your children and there is no need to spend time with people are don't invest in you. When all the investment is in one direction and there is no hope of a glimmer of change there is no point in trying to build a relationship. If they would not drive 20 minutes to see you, this is a one direction relationship. They only receive, they do not give and this is a REALLY bad example for your kids.

[Terabith]

I would encourage your husband to visit without you or the children.  It's not a good environment for your kids. 

[Catwoman]

Forgetting completely about the kids for a moment, why would you ever bother to spend time with them?   :confused: They sound pretty awful.

 

I can understand your dh wanting to spend time with his siblings, but I wouldn't let your children go to your ILs house any more. If you want the kids to see those grandparents, take them out to dinner and if they try to tell your kids what to do, cut them off at the pass -- immediately and firmly.

 

I don't care what the "family culture" is, and I don't buy into the "clueless" excuse. I can't fathom why you and your dh tolerated your in-laws lousy behavior toward your children at Christmas. I would have told them to stop parenting my children and if they didn't knock it off, we would have gone home. 

 

Nobody gets away with treating my child poorly. 

[kroe1]

When in their house, you and your children must follow their rules. It may be difficult for you, bit it is THEIR house. You may choose to go less frequently, but to ask them to change their rules every time you come over is rude. At the same time, if they are in your house, YOUR rules should prevail.

 

By the way, any family who manages to raise 8+ children should get a gold medal, in my opinion. Many of my friends who have this many children run very strict, organized homes. It is a matter of survival.

[suzybluecheese]

Child of a family of 8 here, and  my parents were no where as strict as this.  We all survived very well.  My parents loved kids; they loved the laughter and rambunctiousness of a large family.  

 

As much as your husband values his siblings, he needs to put his own children first.  I agree with the opinion that he needs to go solo to some of these visits.

[brehon]

I have to agree with Jean.  Your dh can visit his parents; you and the kids stay away.  They aren't clueless.  

 

Let me say that again -- the behaviors and actions you detailed aren't the actions of clueless people (except for *perhaps* one or two of them on an individual level only; taken all together the actions are toxic).  They are the actions of controlling and manipulative people.

 

You can't control them; you can't change them.  You can only decide on your response.  Personally, neither I nor my kids would visit them in their house again until and unless there was some real, sustained change.  And I would feel exactly 0.00% guilt about it, too.

 

I believe you can support your dh and still protect your children.  He is an adult and can choose to subject himself to their manipulation, cutting remarks, gas lighting, and general poor behavior if he wants.  Your children simply don't have that option and must rely on you to protect them.  I'm sorry you are having to deal with this.  I hope you both find the strength to set up appropriate boundaries and abide by them to heal and protect yourselves and your precious children.

[OrganicAnn]

Put your own family first.   Don't go very often.    Send your DH as often as he wants.  

[poppy]

When in their house, you and your children must follow their rules. It may be difficult for you, bit it is THEIR house. You may choose to go less frequently, but to ask them to change their rules every time you come over is rude. At the same time, if they are in your house, YOUR rules should prevail.

 

By the way, any family who manages to raise 8+ children should get a gold medal, in my opinion. Many of my friends who have this many children run very strict, organized homes. It is a matter of survival.

Since the OP's in laws refuses tovisit their house, ther options are to allow them to treat her and her kids badly, to be rude by asking them to be kinder, or to cut off relations. Which option would you suggest?

 

 

I'll add that in my Irish Catholic family, there are lots and lots of people with 8 + kids (we rent a hall for Christmas) and not one of them is anything like the strict, cold, patriarchal model the OP describes. Thank goodness!

[brehon]

When in their house, you and your children must follow their rules. It may be difficult for you, bit it is THEIR house. You may choose to go less frequently, but to ask them to change their rules every time you come over is rude. At the same time, if they are in your house, YOUR rules should prevail.

 

By the way, any family who manages to raise 8+ children should get a gold medal, in my opinion. Many of my friends who have this many children run very strict, organized homes. It is a matter of survival.

 

See, I agree that the ILs get to set the rules in their house.  However, what I saw was not simply strict rules and perhaps an overzealous application of those rules; no, what I saw was treating the son and OP rudely, including saying to the OP that any food taken from their (the IL's) house was specifically for the dh, NOT her during a very rough pregnancy.  

 

The extremely rude comments and the fact that no one apparently contradicts whatever crap the FIL spews indicates that this is way beyond the my house, my rules philosophy.  There is a difference between strict and organized and controlling and manipulative.

[abba12]

The thing is they tell us they want to see the kids, they invite us over constantly, its just that they seem to think having the grandkids visit means a quick hello, and looking over to watch them playing nicely at their convenience, I think intending to make them feel good.

 

We could stop taking the kids, but they would get upset and offended, its not like they wouldnt say anything.

 

Cat - i agree with you and if it was my family it would be different. But dh has to do this and, due to his upbringing it is hard. He has to be ready to stand up to his dad, there is a lot of emotional baggage that stops him. Just being able to talk about them negatively was a HUGE step. If he jumps into this too quickly i believe his father will destroy what little confidence he has accumulated. He needs to be ready to be torn down because if he actively tells his dad off thats likely what he will face

[OrganicAnn]

It doesn't matter whether they want ie to see the kids.   You put your family first.   If it is upsetting and unhealthy for your kids, then they shouldn't be going there or should only be going for short visits.    

[bolt.]

MIL: Can you come over Saturday?

You: Thanks MIL. Would you like us to come before or after lunch?

MIL: Oh, come for lunch and stay for supper too!

You: Sorry MIL, we can't come for a meal. Your rules are too strict for our children, and mealtime is really the hardest. Would you like us to come between supper and lunch?

MIL: Oh, nonsense! Come for the meals!

You: No, I'm sorry. Not at their ages with your rules. I'm not going to say yes. Let's choose a good time.

MIL: Fine. Come for the afternoon.

You: Great! What time works for you 1:00? 2? 3?

MIL: Anytime is fine.

You: All right, we'll come from 1:00 to 2:30 then head home for the kids' quiet time, before they begin to react to the stress.

MIL: Stress!?!?

You: Well, you know they aren't being raised as strictly as you and FIL are used to. It's hard for them to meet all the expectations at your house. 90 minutes is about right -- it's like going to Church. They can do their best behaviour for that long.

MIL: Best behaviour? Oh no! If you just do a few things to discipline them, it will be easy as pie!

You: As I said, I'm not that strict, and I'm not going to be, so I think short visits are for the best. See you saturday!

 

 

This is a good clue-in for the clueless: that you are the gatekeeper to the grand kids, and that they need to make different decisions if they want to see plenty if them. If they are not clueless, you will be met with anger: but at least you will know. If they are clueless, they will be motivated to learn in a hurry.

[brehon]

The thing is they tell us they want to see the kids, they invite us over constantly, its just that they seem to think having the grandkids visit means a quick hello, and looking over to watch them playing nicely at their convenience, I think intending to make them feel good.

 

Well, if you still want to subject yourself and your kids to their abuse, take them at their apparent invitation.  Stop by on your way to [the store, the library, the park, the museum, any place they won't be tempted to join you] for a quick hello and be on your way in 5-10 minutes.  After all, you were just in the neighborhood and can't stay long because there is so much on your to-do list that simply must be completed today.

 

We could stop taking the kids, but they would get upset and offended, its not like they wouldnt say anything.

 

<Very tenderly>  So what?  They get to choose their reactions and they can own the consequences.  Although I think it would be healthier for your family if you at least temporarily cut contact with them to give everyone a chance to heal, I understand why your dh is reluctant to do so (on the one hand) and probably needs more strength to do so (on the other).  And please know I don't say that with anything other than gentle sympathy.  HOWEVER, your dh's reasons for not cutting contact does not in any way negate the fact that you (both) have a moral responsibility to protect and guard your precious babies' hearts and well-being.  Oh, and by the way, YOUR heart and emotional well-being is very important, too.  

 

Cat - i agree with you and if it was my family it would be different. But dh has to do this and, due to his upbringing it is hard. He has to be ready to stand up to his dad, there is a lot of emotional baggage that stops him. Just being able to talk about them negatively was a HUGE step. If he jumps into this too quickly i believe his father will destroy what little confidence he has accumulated. He needs to be ready to be torn down because if he actively tells his dad off thats likely what he will face

I'm so very sorry you and your family is dealing with this issue.  I was very heartened to read that your dh recognized that what he experienced growing up isn't normal and he is actively seeking help.  That in and of itself shows that he has more inner strength than he perhaps gives himself credit for.  This is why I and others are suggesting that he can visit his parents whenever he wants for however long he wishes to; he just shouldn't expect his family to have to bear that burden, too.  And it is a burden, especially if your oldest is already picking up on and reacting to that environment.

[Jean in Newcastle]

A couple of more thoughts.  This isn't cluelessness on their part.  It is a deliberate choice to parent their own kids and now their grandkids within a worldview that ignores developmental stages and grace.  You can't change their immediate family dynamics but you can protect your own children and be a safe place for your dh's siblings once they've grown up.  

 

I agree with the suggestion to stop by for very short visits while on your way to somewhere else.  It satisfies their desire to see the grands without any muss or fuss but protects your own children at the same time.  

 

 

[bobbeym]

I agree with the PP.  Until your DH feels ready to confront his parents, let him visit by himself and make whatever excuses for you and the kids that the two of you can agree on.   If you must stop by to visit, make it a quick visit on your way to do something else.

[brehon]

abba12, have you read the book "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend?  If not, hie thee to your library and check it out or put thyself on the hold list.  Or, better yet, buy it from your favorite book seller.  I think this book will be an eye-opener for both you and especially for your dh.  It will hopefully help you see that what you both think is cluelessness is in reality attempts to control and manipulate your family to toe the IL's warped line.

[PeachyDoodle]

The thing is they tell us they want to see the kids, they invite us over constantly, its just that they seem to think having the grandkids visit means a quick hello, and looking over to watch them playing nicely at their convenience, I think intending to make them feel good.

 

We could stop taking the kids, but they would get upset and offended, its not like they wouldnt say anything.

 

Cat - i agree with you and if it was my family it would be different. But dh has to do this and, due to his upbringing it is hard. He has to be ready to stand up to his dad, there is a lot of emotional baggage that stops him. Just being able to talk about them negatively was a HUGE step. If he jumps into this too quickly i believe his father will destroy what little confidence he has accumulated. He needs to be ready to be torn down because if he actively tells his dad off thats likely what he will face

 

If you think everyone can handle short visits, as others have suggested, that seems like a reasonable compromise to me at this point. Just be sure to decide up front how long your dc (and you) and take, and be firm about that. As a pp said, this will probably be easiest if you come up with other places you just *have* to get to and have your excuse ready when it's time to go.

 

If you're right, and your in-laws really just want to check "admired the grandkids" off their to-do list, this might actually keep everyone satisfied, at least for a while. But my advice would be to suddenly become very busy regardless.

 

Of course, your dh can go for longer visits whenever he wants. It doesn't sound like his brothers are that interested in seeing you and the children anyways; would it be possible for you to invite some of the sisters to your home once in a while? They could visit with you and the littles away from their responsibilities at home and you might actually get some quality time with them.

 

You definitely don't want to drive a wedge between your dh and his family, or set up an "it's them or me" kind of situation. So you are wise to allow him to come to terms with this in his own time. But the two of you also need to make a plan for protecting your children in the meantime.

[Slartibartfast]

 Your eldest's behaviors sound like anxiety, that's a problem to me.

 

Are they really this crabby and unreasonable?

 

I don't find leaving food at the table to be irrational but it is disturbing that it sounds like the children are constantly badgered.

 

What do you say when people yell at them while you are there? If someone does it to my kid I say, "I am right here." or "We only need to say things once *while smiling* "

[Lawana]

Just out of curiosity. You mentioned that dh was the second eldest. Is his older sibling female by any chance? If so, that could explain some of the reason he has such a hard time standing up to his father. IME with large, highly structured/controlled families, the eldest of each sex is much more tied to the family paradigm than the subsequent children of each sex. The eldest tend to stay with the program or rebel outright. The following ones often have an easier time resisting the parts they don't agree with.

[Mrs Mungo]

I would let dh deal with them on their turf. I would continue to invite them over, but dh would need to learn to stand up for us on "our" turf. I would invite the siblings over for game night or something and exclude the parents at least some of the time. I would mostly try to meet them on neutral ground.

[laundrycrisis]

I would just confront them myself, and tell them my requirements if we are going to spend time with them.

 

If they won't go along with it, I would explain the truth of the situation to my children, and always, always, 100% of the time, be ready to back up and support the children, in every situation with these grandparents.  If the grandparents don't like it, you don't have to see them.

 

I would not allow these grandparents the opportunity to be mean to my children, and I wouldn't depend on anyone else to address the situation.

[Catwoman]

The thing is they tell us they want to see the kids, they invite us over constantly, its just that they seem to think having the grandkids visit means a quick hello, and looking over to watch them playing nicely at their convenience, I think intending to make them feel good.

 

We could stop taking the kids, but they would get upset and offended, its not like they wouldnt say anything.

 

Cat - i agree with you and if it was my family it would be different. But dh has to do this and, due to his upbringing it is hard. He has to be ready to stand up to his dad, there is a lot of emotional baggage that stops him. Just being able to talk about them negatively was a HUGE step. If he jumps into this too quickly i believe his father will destroy what little confidence he has accumulated. He needs to be ready to be torn down because if he actively tells his dad off thats likely what he will face

 

If your dh can't stand up to his father when his father is upsetting your children, you have every right -- and the responsibility -- to defend your kids. I would never, ever tolerate anyone yelling at my child or telling him what to do in the way that you have described. Never.

 

Personally, I think it's time for your dh to decide who is more important -- you and your children or his parents. I don't care that his upbringing makes it hard for him to stand up to them. He needs to establish his priorities and determine what is and is not acceptable behavior when you visit his parents, and he needs to be very firm with them. Each time. Every time. I know I sound kind of mean, but I'm not giving a grown man a free pass to tuck his tail between his legs and not defend his family, just because his father is a big bully.

 

Your dh isn't a teenager. He's a grown man with a family of his own, and that family should be his number one priority. If he's not strong enough to decide that he will no longer allow his parents to upset his children and his wife, perhaps it's time to tell him that you will no longer be subjecting yourself or your children to their controlling, manipulative behavior until he is ready to stand up for you when they behave inappropriately.

 

Seriously, I know you feel sorry for your dh, but he's not a child, and there's no reason why his confidence should be destroyed if he starts defending you and the kids. It's his job. Personally, I think he will develop confidence if he starts telling his parents to knock it off when they make unreasonable demands or scold your children. He doesn't have to turn it into a big family meeting. He just needs to be watchful, and react to each individual situation as it occurs.

[Guest submarines]

The thing is they tell us they want to see the kids, they invite us over constantly, its just that they seem to think having the grandkids visit means a quick hello, and looking over to watch them playing nicely at their convenience, I think intending to make them feel good.

 

We could stop taking the kids, but they would get upset and offended, its not like they wouldnt say anything.

 

Cat - i agree with you and if it was my family it would be different. But dh has to do this and, due to his upbringing it is hard. He has to be ready to stand up to his dad, there is a lot of emotional baggage that stops him. Just being able to talk about them negatively was a HUGE step. If he jumps into this too quickly i believe his father will destroy what little confidence he has accumulated. He needs to be ready to be torn down because if he actively tells his dad off thats likely what he will face

 

Your DH is an adult. I get that it is hard for him, but your children are the ones who need your protection first. You can't continue to expose your children to those manipulative and controlling (not "clueless") individuals--definitely not in their house. If they want to see the children, let them come to your house--your house, your rules.

 

Heartbreaking, how your oldest is stressed out over making messes and touching things. She sounds like a very sensitive, aware little girl. Stand up for her. You can do it. :grouphug:

[Dory]

If my three year old was having anxiety problems due to being picked at so much, I wouldn't continue to subject her to that. Or at least I would limit the length of time I was there and not during large get togethers. My dh visits his parents lots without me. I am selective about when and for how long I take the kids over there. You don't have to cut them out of your life completely, just limit it and set some firm boundaries. If they chew out your child, you can say "I'm right here, I can take care of it." Be firm in your decisions and stand up for your kids. You don't have to do it rudely, just firmly. So what if they don't like it. If they truly love their son and grandkids, they will come around eventually and meet you at least part way in the relationship. As it is  now, it's a one way relationship and it's extremely unhealthy for your kids. Btw, I grew up in a family with 7 kids and my best friends has 8 kids and large families do not have to be run like this in order to function healthy.

 

Also, no it's not ignorance, not all of it anyway. There are a few things that sound like they were just being clueless, but some of it is manipulative and controlling and not ok.

[Ellie]

Your dh needs to visit them without you or the kids.  This is not a healthy place for your children.  

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

They are his parents and he needs to deal with them. You stay out of it...and keep the dc with you.

[lmrich]

Have you ever met at a park or a kid friendly neutral zone? I just wonder what they would do. The other pp have great advice.

[Lisa R.]

 

 

Of course you might ask them to babysit specifically, but only after they have given an open invitation for babysitting, etc.). Again, I am trying to accept this as being a cultural thing, and when it was just me it was effecting, it was much easier to overlook. 

 

OP, please do not let them babysit for you. If you need help in a tight situation, you need to develop a support network outside of this family. 

 

I suggest you set your expectations very low. Do not expect offers of help, food, or sympathy. If they do give something to you--a gift, a meal, a favor of any kind--accept this surprise graciously. 

 

I do feel that confrontation would be futile here and only strengthen their belief that you misunderstand the correct way (their way) to raise your children and run your lives. I wouldn't bother offering explanations of any kind. 

 

I'd decline dinner invitations now, particularly while your children are young. 

 

Perhaps when your dh visits, he could take one child with him at a time. This would be easier for him to manage, and they could still see their grandchild. 

 

It seems doubtful they are going to change. Your frustration will increase if you feel that you need to find the right thing to say or the right way to act or the right way for your children to act in order for them to be pleased and pleasant. It's not going to work. You have a different philosophy and different goals for you family. You have this right and have no need to explain this in any detail to them or anyone else.

[abba12]

Just out of curiosity. You mentioned that dh was the second eldest. Is his older sibling female by any chance? If so, that could explain some of the reason he has such a hard time standing up to his father. IME with large, highly structured/controlled families, the eldest of each sex is much more tied to the family paradigm than the subsequent children of each sex. The eldest tend to stay with the program or rebel outright. The following ones often have an easier time resisting the parts they don't agree with.

Yep, female, 7 years older because she was born before they developed their later beliefs, so dh is very much an 'eldest' among the kids while big sis was almost more like an aunt to the youngsters. But she didnt date until after we married so dh has still had to deal with being the first in many things.

[abba12]

Thank you all for your comments, it helps to get sone fairly unbiased opinions and a bit of a reality check, because by this point everyone here has strong opinions. My husband knows about this thread and intends to sit down and read it/figure out some sort of plan this weekend, because DD1 is just getting too old now for this drama, something needs to change.

 

Shame its happening now though, its summer here in australia and theyre the only relatives with a pool! We are in the middle of a heatwave (its 112f today). Lol i know thats silly but it was kinda nice. Ah well, we might be utilizing the public pool this year after all.

[Laurie4b]

You're going to have to stand up to them. It's the only way to have a relationship with them. BTDT.

 

Do you know the Proverb, "As a dog returns to his vomit, so does a fool to his folly?" That means people are predictable in returning to the same old messes, so you don't have to be caught off guard. You can plan. The content may shift a little, but it's the same old puke time after time, right? The key is to practice what you are going to say and then act on it. I am quite sure you can reasonably predict the response. Have a response for the response. Write it down. Role play it. Tell a friend what you are going to do.  Stick to your guns.  Dh has to back you up, but but you can stand up to his dad even if dh isn't ready. Until you two are ready, I agree with those who said change the terms: let dh go alone, invite siblings over, etc. You might also consider asking if you can invite a friend. Often someone not in the "system" will cause the whole system to change. People aren't as likely to be at their most obnoxious with another person outside the family there and YOU will feel braver if need be because there is someone there whose very presence affirms that there is a real world out there where that behavior is considered bizarre, not normal.

 

Be prepared for the blow up. There is no way around it, but it might actually go better than you think. Bullies do not respect people they can bully. It's just possible that your fil will back down, even if that seems crazy now.  I did this very thing with a relative and there was change. I planned ahead, the thing happened, I acted on the plan. I wasn't in shock because I had planned for it. I didn't lose my temper because I had planned for it. However, I was very firm with the boundary that only dh or I would be disciplining our children . I said just what I had planned to say, nothing more or less. There was  a big blow up and hullabaloo when the confrontation happened. But there was real change afterward and recently, there has been even more. It is a beautiful thing seeing the Lord at work changing people.

 

Your child is way too stressed to continue as you are. The well-being of your child cannot be sacrificed.

[Melissa in Australia]

When in their house, you and your children must follow their rules. It may be difficult for you, bit it is THEIR house. You may choose to go less frequently, but to ask them to change their rules every time you come over is rude. At the same time, if they are in your house, YOUR rules should prevail.

 

By the way, any family who manages to raise 8+ children should get a gold medal, in my opinion. Many of my friends who have this many children run very strict, organized homes. It is a matter of survival.

 

:iagree:

[AimeeM]

They have every right to implement the rules they have, no matter how unwelcoming or cold their home is as a result.

With that said, you, in turn, have every right to protect your child FROM such an atmosphere. If I were you, I wouldn't take my children over there any more. What's more, when I were asked *why* (and I/you would be, rest assured that from the sounds of their make-up), I would tell them exactly WHY; that their rules and the entire atmosphere is so cold and so strict, that your children are beginning to suffer from it - and that if they want ANYTHING to do with their grandchildren, things will change. That puts the ball in their court.

Again, they have every right to do things the way they please - just as you have every right to (and even the responsibility to do so) do anything necessary to ensure your children stay healthy (emotionally); you have every right to voice your desire for change, even if they refuse.

 

I know it can be hard. Not the same on any level, but my father is a 3 pack a day smoker. He smoked inside the house throughout my childhood. I told him, kindly, that I wouldn't be bringing the children to visit unless the house were aired out in advance. Guess what? His desire to see his grandchildren trumped his desire to enjoy his smoke in the living room... and he even called out other family members who would *forget* the new rule and smoke indoors while my children were present. I know how hard it was for him, and how ingrained that habit of lighting up right there in the house, but he loves his grandchildren enough to give that up.

[Catwoman]

Thank you all for your comments, it helps to get sone fairly unbiased opinions and a bit of a reality check, because by this point everyone here has strong opinions. My husband knows about this thread and intends to sit down and read it/figure out some sort of plan this weekend, because DD1 is just getting too old now for this drama, something needs to change.

 

Shame its happening now though, its summer here in australia and theyre the only relatives with a pool! We are in the middle of a heatwave (its 112f today). Lol i know thats silly but it was kinda nice. Ah well, we might be utilizing the public pool this year after all.

I forgot to ask this earlier, but are your in-laws aware of how upsetting their behavior and rules are to you and your children?

 

I was just thinking about how you said your dh wasn't ready to stand up to them yet, and I started wondering if there's a possibility that they don't even know you're angry and offended. I mean, if everyone accepts their behavior and never calls them out on it, how can they know that changes need to be made?

 

I think it's very important for your dh (or both of you) to be very clear about what's bothering you, so your in-laws have the opportunity to respond. I'm not saying they will change their ways, but at least you will know for sure where they stand.

[Melissa in Australia]

I grew up in a family of 8 children. We defiantly had some of those rules. No food or drink unless at the table  or outside was a key rule. In fact I still implement that rule in my own house, visiting children included. Also I remember being a kid and going to my grandmothers and we did not touch any thing at all. we sat on the couch or went out and played. Mind you my grandmother's house was chock a block full of antiques and sitting on the couch there were many many things to look at. Children learn very quickly that at some people's house they are not allowed to touch anything. I also would not expect the young aunts and uncles to think about entertaining your children. they are young and probably it hasn't dawned on them to do it.

My mother never made me meals when I was pregnant or after I had a baby, her mother never did for her- not something that ever dawned on either of them to do. I guess it  would have been nice, I cannot think of any of my acquaintances  who have had this done for them either. maybe it is a cultural thing?

 

As for the other things, leaving food close at hand and unwrapping presents and leaving them lying around  in temptation for your children ... not really fair at all on your children

[abba12]

I forgot to ask this earlier, but are your in-laws aware of how upsetting their behavior and rules are to you and your children?

 

I was just thinking about how you said your dh wasn't ready to stand up to them yet, and I started wondering if there's a possibility that they don't even know you're angry and offended. I mean, if everyone accepts their behavior and never calls them out on it, how can they know that changes need to be made?

 

I think it's very important for your dh (or both of you) to be very clear about what's bothering you, so your in-laws have the opportunity to respond. I'm not saying they will change their ways, but at least you will know for sure where they stand.

 

Youre right, we arent certain that they realize. Some of it is inexcusable such as diciplining our children, but they may not realize the emotions they are causing. Because they are a fairly emotionless family and their own toddlers were not very willful due to their dicipline style, they may not realize the effect. FIL prefers to pretend emotions dont exist, and he has also told us that our 15mo is too young to have concious thought so the idea of her having meaningful and long lasting emotions is impossible to him.

 

If they dont realize how upset the kids and i am it is from a lack of paying attention, because DD1 does get upset in front of them and i have made some comments. When he yelled at DD2 he apparently commented to my husband that he realized once he said it I wouldnt approve and proceeded to make a big joke of it, having a good laugh over how 'sensitive' my baby was who started screaming immediately (teething, bad mood, his kids all teethed without any obvious issues apparently) and 'once a parent, always a parent' to excuse his reaction

 

I think its more likely willful ignorance because they have chosen to not really acknowledge emotion the way we do, so they want to ignore it from us too. There have been numerous incidents where they have been completely, innapropriately insensitive, not out of nastiness exactly, but due to their lack of emotion in their own lives. But i do agree we need to at least give them the chance to respond since no one has really stood up to them before. I just doubt we will get nuch of a response since they are only treating the kids the way they think we should and they think we should just be less emotional about things.

[abba12]

I grew up in a family of 8 children. We defiantly had some of those rules. No food or drink unless at the table or outside was a key rule. In fact I still implement that rule in my own house, visiting children included. Also I remember being a kid and going to my grandmothers and we did not touch any thing at all. we sat on the couch or went out and played. Mind you my grandmother's house was chock a block full of antiques and sitting on the couch there were many many things to look at. Children learn very quickly that at some people's house they are not allowed to touch anything. I also would not expect the young aunts and uncles to think about entertaining your children. they are young and probably it hasn't dawned on them to do it.

My mother never made me meals when I was pregnant or after I had a baby, her mother never did for her- not something that ever dawned on either of them to do. I guess it would have been nice, I cannot think of any of my acquaintances who have had this done for them either. maybe it is a cultural thing?

 

As for the other things, leaving food close at hand and unwrapping presents and leaving them lying around in temptation for your children ... not really fair at all on your children

It isnt that the food at the table thing is an issue in itself, though adults get to carry food around and surely a covered water bottle should be ok? Its that there is an ever growing list of little rules which end in them being able to do nothing at all. Outside isnt safe since theyre on a large property with no fencing, we could go out and supervise them but no one would follow us because theyd rather be in the air conditioning or doing other things. We need to place ourselves where they are, so going over to proceed to sit outside alone the wholetime seems pointless.

 

As for the meals, i wasnt just pregnant, i suffer hyperemesis, i was completely unable to cook, and was hospitalized at one point. They are fully aware of the level of incapacity I reach and that hubby has to take over everything for 8 weeks as i can barely stand, and help out a lot for another 12 weeks after that each pregnancy.

[Melissa in Australia]

different families different expectations. it is hard to make constructive comments with limited information and not seeing first hand the family dynamics.  I an getting the feeling you would like everyone to agree with you that the in-laws are terrible people, but...... the way I read it is that some of their expectations are normal expectations.

 

 

In regard to the meals. when I was pregnant with one of mine I was on complete bed rest for 20 weeks. I never expected and did not receive any meals prepared by anyone else. My mother lives 20 minutes drive away. It never dawned on her either. Of course it would have been lovely.......

[Laurie4b]

One other thing is that you said that they expected you to ask for what you want. You expect them to figure it out because it seems pretty obvious to you. So you could try actually asking for meals when you are pregnant. (Are you involved in a church? I would think that a church would provide meals for someone who has the amount of difficulty that you do during a pregnancy.)

 

 

[abba12]

One other thing is that you said that they expected you to ask for what you want. You expect them to figure it out because it seems pretty obvious to you. So you could try actually asking for meals when you are pregnant. (Are you involved in a church? I would think that a church would provide meals for someone who has the amount of difficulty that you do during a pregnancy.)

We did actually ask once, at which point a couple of leftovers were dug out of the freezer hesitantly, with a few comments about lunches for the employed siblings. Dh has also hinted fairly obviously once or twice to no avail. We live in a bad area as far as church asistance goes, people are too busy for that kind of thing around here unless theyre close friends. We have never received help from church family despite making our needs known. Its not just us, we recently bought heaters for an abandoned mother of special needs kids whos husband took the heaters when he left. Its incomprehencable to me how no one in the church had an older heater around, or how the church could afford their frivilous expenses, including carpet cleaning and a new computer, but couldnt help her with this, an expense which cost no more than a couple hundred dollars new and was quite nececary in this climate during an unusually cold june this year. Its just the area we live, community is dead around here. I have received more support from non-christians than church goers

[PeachyDoodle]

One other thing is that you said that they expected you to ask for what you want. You expect them to figure it out because it seems pretty obvious to you. So you could try actually asking for meals when you are pregnant. (Are you involved in a church? I would think that a church would provide meals for someone who has the amount of difficulty that you do during a pregnancy.)

 

I understand the impulse to want everyone around you to "figure it out" because what you want seems perfectly obvious and reasonable. I'm VERY much like that myself. And I tend to agree with you that it *should* be obvious to MIL that you need some help, especially since you said (I believe) you lost your own mother. But sometimes you just have to face reality: not everyone sees things the way you do, and some people really are just clueless. Maybe she is so wrapped up in still being a mother that she's having a hard time transitioning to grandmother. My own mom seemed to have some of that, because she still had children at home when I had my dd. It would be hard to be both mom and grandma, I would think. Harder than becoming a grandmother after your children were all grown and you'd had time to adjust to having relationships with ADULT children, anyway. That's a big shift.

 

If the relationship improves, great. But for now, and possibly forever, it sounds like you and dh need, in addition to a plan for dealing with his family, a plan for being independent of them. Especially when you are pregnant/sick. Do you have a few close friends or family (aunts? cousins? his older sister?) you could rally? They likely know the situation already; perhaps you could say, "With my mom gone and dh's family issues, we really need a few people we can call on in an emergency. Would you be willing to help?" It's quite likely that they'd be honored to be asked. You can think ahead of time of the most important things you might need -- meals, baby-sitting, etc. -- and give them a concrete idea of what you're asking them to do. Sometimes you really do just have to ask for what you need, and I know how hard that can be.

 

For the food situation, could you and dh make a plan to take a weekend and make a bunch of food to put in the freezer? Maybe you could even buy a deep freezer for this purpose -- they're relatively inexpensive, at least here in the States. You can also make a list of other easy meal ideas to keep on hand. If dh doesn't mind cooking/helping you with the dc while you're down and out (my dh was always FABULOUS when I was on bed rest), and the real problem is comments from his mother that you're not taking good enough care of her baby, it's time to let that go. If you are happy, dh is happy, and you have a system that is working for you, that is all that matters.

 

Good luck!

 

[MFG]

 

... I'm not giving a grown man a free pass to tuck his tail between his legs and not defend his family, just because his father is a big bully.

 

Personally, I think he will develop confidence if he starts telling his parents to knock it off when they make unreasonable demands or scold your children. He doesn't have to turn it into a big family meeting. He just needs to be watchful, and react to each individual situation as it occurs.

I cannot guarantee it but I just get the impression this might be the case. If Dh stands up to Fil, even just in a little thing at first, he will gain confidence when he sees that the world does not, in fact, end. On the other side, like most bullies, Fil maintains his position because no one challenges him. A little push back and he might just fold like a big house of cards.

[songsparrow]

This is kind of tangential to the questions you raised in your OP, but how old are your husband's younger sisters or brothers?  Could you perhaps pay them to come over to your house and prepare meals and/or be a mommy's helper during your pregnancy and after the birth?  That would give you some much needed relief, and also would give an opportunity for you and your children to build a relationship with them away from their home.

[Word Nerd]

I would encourage your husband to visit without you or the children. It's not a good environment for your kids.

This. It doesn't address the real problem with your in-laws, but it sounds like there are so many variables at play that it would be very difficult to change the dynamics of your relationship with them. You and your kids are being negatively affected by this relationship. Your DH can still work on addressing his family's many daddy issues, but in the meantime you have to focus on your own kids' well-being and remove them from that environment.