Are the kids behind, or the expectations unreasonable?

[Crimson Wife]

Has there been a study that shows this?  I would guess that as compared to public school families, the socioeconomic status of homeschooling families would be skewed towards the upper end.

Most HSers have single-income families, so I would expect them to have a lower average family income than PS families and a significantly lower average income than private school families. If I put my older two into PS and resumed FT employment, our gross income would go up quite a bit (net income after taxes, childcare, and other expenses would go up much less).

[chiguirre]

One of last nights 4th Grade homework problems asked:

 

If you have 2 diamond rings and 4 silver rings that are worth $1,440 altogether. And 1 diamond ring and 1 silver ring that together are worth $660. Then how much is a silver ring worth?

 

Not a super hard problem, but I bet some parents can't do the math.

 

Bill

That's easy peasy if you've done Singapore Math or if someone has explicitly taught you the trick of thinking of 1 diamond and 1 silver ring as a unit. We could do that, but we don't. For whatever reason, we treat math as a subject that some people get and some don't. Students pick up on that and perform accordingly. I have no solution to the problem other than to homeschool my own kids.

[Nscribe]

Standards do not equal what happens in classrooms. 

[EKS]

Most HSers have single-income families, so I would expect them to have a lower average family income than PS families and a significantly lower average income than private school families. If I put my older two into PS and resumed FT employment, our gross income would go up quite a bit (net income after taxes, childcare, and other expenses would go up much less).

 

Socioeconomic status is more than just income level though.  It takes education and occupation (and other things) into account.  So if you have a two parents who went to college, for example, even if their income is lower because one of them isn't working, there SES is going to be higher than a family where the educational attainment is lower. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

Most HSers have single-income families, so I would expect them to have a lower average family income than PS families and a significantly lower average income than private school families. If I put my older two into PS and resumed FT employment, our gross income would go up quite a bit (net income after taxes, childcare, and other expenses would go up much less).

 

Exactly what I was thinking . . . I'm sure families like ours skew the typical socioeconomic stats.  I have a PhD but almost no income . . . . because I homeschool.  Our SES would definitely be higher were I working full time.  Then I could afford private school, like most of the other affluent families around here who flee the public schools.  But that sure felt like tail-chasing.  I prefer homeschooling.  :D

[Nscribe]

Bill:

Some homeschoolers underestimate what is happening in the better schools...I can agree.  Some do.  You will occassionally hear an offhand comment to the effect that whatever ones does homeschooling academically has got to be better than what is happening in the schools academically.  I am not sure what your point is when you post.  Why does it matter if some homeschoolers underestimate what is happening in some public schools? 

[Chrysalis Academy]

One of last nights 4th Grade homework problems asked:

 

If you have 2 diamond rings and 4 silver rings that are worth $1,440 altogether. And 1 diamond ring and 1 silver ring that together are worth $660. Then how much is a silver ring worth?

 

Not a super hard problem, but I bet some parents can't do the math.

 

Bill

 

Do the math?  Heck, most of the parents in our local public school can't speak English.  No way can they help their kids with this kind of math problem.   Gahhh, these conversations make me so depressed.  Sure, I'm doing this great thing for my kids by homeschooling them, but they still have to live in the world where kids - most kids?   aren't learning the skills they are going to need to make it.  This affects all of us, even those of us who live in - and love -  our homeschooling bubbles.

 

I wish I had a freaking clue how to make things better for kids.  All kids, or more kids, not just my kids.  If I did I would have something meaningful to do with the rest of my life.  As it is, I have to focus on the kids I got in front of me.

[MysteryJen]

Do the math?  Heck, most of the parents in our local public school can't speak English.  No way can they help their kids with this kind of math problem.   Gahhh, these conversations make me so depressed.  Sure, I'm doing this great thing for my kids by homeschooling them, but they still have to live in the world where kids - most kids?   aren't learning the skills they are going to need to make it.  This affects all of us, even those of us who live in - and love -  our homeschooling bubbles.

 

I wish I had a freaking clue how to make things better for kids.  All kids, or more kids, not just my kids.  If I did I would have something meaningful to do with the rest of my life.  As it is, I have to focus on the kids I got in front of me.

 

I wish I could like this post a million times.

[Spy Car]

Bill:

Some homeschoolers underestimate what is happening in the better schools...I can agree. Some do. You will occassionally hear an offhand comment to the effect that whatever ones does homeschooling academically has got to be better than what is happening in the schools academically. I am not sure what your point is when you post. Why does it matter if some homeschoolers underestimate what is happening in some public schools?

I, like you, sometimes hear "whatever ones does homeschooling academically has got to be better than what is happening in the schools academically." I think it is a dangerous misapprehension that could lead some people to being lax and self-satisfied when the bar they are clearing is based on mediocrity. That is not in the interest of children. So I hope my posts will serve as a reminder that highly functioning schools have pretty high standards that are realized in student achievement.

 

If a home school parent is going to set a bar, I would hope it would be to do as well (or better) than a very good school might do with the same student. And it matters to me just like education matters to everyone. It is vital to our national future to have a well-educated citizenry. I want (and hope) home educated children bring something vital and different to the table. I'd (personally) like to see home educated students serve as examples to professional educators of what kind of education can and should take place, and have zero interest in seeing it be another form of mediocrity.

 

Bill

[Stellalarella]

When students are not meeting  standards by 4th grade, we indeed have a huge problem--and that goes for ps children and h'sing children.

 

I think we should expect kids to read proficiently and do math calculations by the end of 4th grade.

 

Now about other expectations:

 

When 3 of my kids were in a high performing magnet school, I thought they were expected to do a number of developmentally inappropriate things:

 

Grades K-5 only had one recess a day.  If they were lucky, it was 15 minutes long.  I think it's ridiculous to make K'ers school all day with only one play period.  This school was serious on academics.  No pretend-play, dress-up corners for the k'ers.  Oh, no, these babies had to be reading their sight word books by the end of the year.  My kindergarteners came home with 30 minutes of homework 4 days a week.    And at that time, our state mandated testing for the little ones.  Hours and hours of it.  While some kids were testing, the others were watching full length movies all morning for a week--a week in the fall and 2 weeks in the spring.  I thought it was crazy to expect 5yolds  to do that much testing. But the state required it!

 

The kids were expected to write copiously from K on up.  Nothing had to be spelled correctly.  And although they were expected to write stories, they were given very little handwriting instruction.  Our school had no consistent program to teach spelling.  There was no consistent program to teach grammar.  The school didn't even have a consistent handwriting program.  That's a crazy writing standard, imo.   

 

The kids were expected to make a science fair project every year.  K-1 were optional, but highly, highly encouraged.  They could do a "model" project.  For 2nd-5th grades, it was assigned--display board, written materials, models, scientific method, experimentation, the whole shebang.  If only I had collected the buckets of tears shed by my kids and their classmates and my fellow parents.  Now THAT would have been scientifically interesting to study.   Kids reading about something and making a simple model?  Great way to learn.  Doing a little experiment and predicting what might happen?  Great way to learn.  Reading about science?  Great way to learn.  A 7 year old compiling it all into a beautiful display that will be judged, graded and awarded or not awarded if child had shaky penmanship instead of using typing skills he had not yet learned?  Ridiculous.  An elementary school kid cannot assimilate and then package all that information--they have to have a parent by the side at all times.  

 

In sum, I think we are failing many children in this country when it comes to teaching them how to read and do math and later on to write well.  But I wish that wouldn't try to make them into advanced whole language readers when they are in kindergarten, make them into authors when they are in first grade, and make them into scientists in 2nd grade.  

[Spy Car]

Do the math? Heck, most of the parents in our local public school can't speak English. No way can they help their kids with this kind of math problem. Gahhh, these conversations make me so depressed. Sure, I'm doing this great thing for my kids by homeschooling them, but they still have to live in the world where kids - most kids? aren't learning the skills they are going to need to make it. This affects all of us, even those of us who live in - and love - our homeschooling bubbles.

 

I wish I had a freaking clue how to make things better for kids. All kids, or more kids, not just my kids. If I did I would have something meaningful to do with the rest of my life. As it is, I have to focus on the kids I got in front of me.

I feel the same way.

 

Bill

[AuntPol]

Standards seem to have gotten higher

 

My daughter's freshman load is almost a replica of my sophomore load (and I was on the college prep track -one of the smart ones, etc). My high school had 3 kids take calculus our senior year (and I believe it was done before or after school or lunch because it was out of the norm). My daughter's school has kids in precalculus as freshman and it's a school of the arts not a math and science school. I had to take French 3 during lunch because it was out of the norm to have 3 years of a language. We didn't have AP classes, etc when I went to high school. I didn't go to kindergarten but some kids did go to half day kindergarten. They learned their ABC's and that's about it. I learned mine at home. We learned to read in first grade. So to me, it seems kids are moving faster.

 

Regarding the differences in kids

My son's kindergarten class had him who started Kindergarten at 4 and turned 5 a month later but had been reading a year and was reading Harry Potter before end of Kindergarten. There were a bunch of girls who started kindergarten at age 6 because they were red shirted and they could read also. Both these groups were considered gifted before testing but IMHO -it was just that the girls were slightly above what their real grade was. Anyway, in that same class were many other 4 year olds who turned 5 but parents couldn't red shirt because of finances. These kids and a few others were all kids who lived in government housing, free lunch, etc. Many of them did not know their colors. They could not tell me what they wanted to eat in the line by words -they had to point because they did not know for example that corn had a name. These kids might have benefited with some early intervention. As people say, standards are too high for some and too low for others. It's usually based on socio-economic background and parenting styles.

 

Regarding homeschoolers underestimating:

My son is in a regular middle school -not the gifted magnet. He is in Math 2 (geometry). Most of the kids are in Math I (algebra) and then the rest in 8th grade math. There are just a few in remedial math. Most homeschoolers we know are doing pre-algebra in 8th grade. I've met a handful doing algebra and then the rare person doing geometry. His 8th grade science is more rigorous than Apologia (the most common choice) by far. His social studies (NC History but really more like US History) is very rigorous. Language Arts is on par w/what homeschoolers do (most homeschoolers seem to do okay in this area -though a few people seemed to not cover writing or grammar well). One of my daughter's elementary school friends was able to do Geometry, Freshman English, and Spanish I as an 8th grader at her school. (Spanish I is an option at my son's school but we came in on the 5th week so he missed getting it), Math1 and Spanish I are pretty common.

 

My freshman daughter's school has a lot of homeschoolers. A few like her are bright and were taught in manner typical of this particular board. Some were not. There are a few that are severely behind.

 

I think homeschoolers sometimes underestimate because a) they compare public schools today to what "we" did a gazillion years ago. B) We judge public schools by the outcome of the disadvantaged kids instead of comparing apples to apples. c) We judge it based on elementary school which often focus on the lower end and don't track. In middle school, they track and make a huge jump around here. (I often see that homeschoolers are ahead -often way ahead- until middle school and then by end of middle school, they are often behind.

[My3girls]

I'm sure there are good public schools out there. They just aren't here. They teach totally to the test and in effect do not provide a foundation on which the kids can build an education. At the time I pulled my kids from ps, my 5th grader named the Mayflower as one of Christopher Columbus's ships, said he sailed in 1972, couldn't spell beginning, and didnt know any of her measurement facts. She could label the anatomy of a shark, though. She was in the gifted program. My 2nd grader was reading on a first grade level, still counted on her fingers, couldn't spell much of anything, and her hand writing was so atrocious that it was barely legible. She was picked on and made fun of, and when she lashed out was labelled as having a behavioral and emotional disorder. My first grader told me that Martin Luther King freed the slaves.

 

I think a huge problem is the balanced classroom. They need to group kids by abilities. This way when the teacher teaches to the middle they are benefitting more kids. My dd12, gifted, was in the same class with the IEPs. My dd8 was left so far behind that she just stopped participating because she didn't know what in the heck was going on. My dd7 has ants in her pants. She does just enough to get by so she can do something else. She was never challenged or even engaged.

 

Another problem is the teaching to the test. They are not teaching kids how to think, how to apply what they know to figure out what they don't, or how to look anything up. All 3 know how to google but cannot use a dictionary. They weren't taught how things are shelved in the library or how to find a book. They went to the library once a week but just wandered around until they found a book that had a cool cover. They didn't know how to use the index or glossary of a book to find information. Dd12, however, could do a mediocre power point presentation. I mean who cares what the words say when you can make them fly in and spin around and fly out, right?

 

I don't think starting kids younger will help, or making them learn more younger. They actually need to start slower focusing more on the basics such as learning how to write and spell before asking for a paragraph, how to read before asking for a book report, and how to find an answer to a question before teaching them how to create pc presentations. They should not be allowed to use a calculator until trigonometry!

[GloriaMS]

I think what is more important is not how much they can cram in during the hours spent at school, but what the outcome is. And the outcome doesn't look glamorous for US.

We are a bilingual family.  My daughter started school at 7.  She didn't know the letters (she was not interested) so of course she didn't know how to read, but she was fluent in two languages.  Math we started at 8.  But we did put our energy into teaching her to think for herself, to reason, to try, to explore, to draw conclusions.  Today, 3 years into homeschooling she reads and writes in two languages, she advanced 2 years in 1 in reading and math, and we are very relaxed homeschoolers.  I think laying the foundation is fundamental.  Somebody posted a 4th grade math problem.  A child can do years of math without being able to solve it, because it is actually a logic problem not math.

 

I come from Europe, and yes, kids there start slower, because they take time to lay the foundation which you will built on in the years to come.  All of them start first foreign language in 2nd grade and second language a couple of years later.  

[Crimson Wife]

We judge it based on elementary school which often focus on the lower end and don't track. In middle school, they track and make a huge jump around here. (I often see that homeschoolers are ahead -often way ahead- until middle school and then by end of middle school, they are often behind.

Not all public schools start tracking in middle school. My district doesn't offer honors classes (even at the "best" high school in the neighborhood where houses cost $1+ million) until ELEVENTH grade. They do accelerate the bright kids in math starting in 7th grade, but all that means is they get thrown in with the regular track kids a year older. So the Algebra 1 class at our zoned middle school has the bright 7th graders and the average 8th graders. I've seen the textbook that is used in that class (Prentice Hall CA Algebra 1), and it is way easier than the books that bright homeschooled kids I know are using (Art of Problem Solving, Singapore, Jacobs, Dolciani, etc.)

 

Are there some excellent public schools out there? Sure- a good friend of mine from high school has her sons in a BASIS charter school and it sounds like a fantastic place. Makes me wish there was one in my neck of the woods (there is a private BASIS school in San Jose but it charges $22k/yr/child). Unfortunately rigorous public schools are too few and far between in this country :-(

[fdrinca]

Recalling my teacher's education days, aren't grade level standards set at the 50th percentile? So we'd expect, by default, half of students not meeting the standards. Nitpick point, but one worth making.

[Chelli]

I wish they still tracked kids in elementary. I know it's not the pc thing to say, but tracking worked so well in my elementary. We were tracked for math and reading from 3rd grade through 6th, then went to a normal Jr. High schedule in 7th where we were able to pick our classes, etc.

 

Kids moved between groups if they made that "jump", so just because you started in the low reading or math group didn't mean that you stayed there. Teachers rotated which group they taught each year so, you didn't have teacher burnout from always teaching the low group. Each group was allowed to use different materials for their class that fit the level they were teaching. The high reading group I was in from 4th to 6th used the Junior Great Books program, but none of the other classes did. High math group wasn't just extra work, but a totally different, more challenging curriculum.

 

It never made sense to me to keep the very low kids in with the high kids. The teacher is forced to teach middle of the road which bores the high students and still leaves the low students behind. I would love to see a return to tracking with the intention of working diligently with the low students to progress, with average students to progress, and with gifted learners to be challenged. 

 

I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, but I do know that in my graduating class of 83 students, all of us could read and do basic math at the bare minimum.

 

We also had more recesses, barely any testing (I think once in the spring we took a basic skills test), and lots of fun learning projects (like studying a country for an entire semester and putting on a performance about our country at the end).

[SKL]

One of last nights 4th Grade homework problems asked:

 

If you have 2 diamond rings and 4 silver rings that are worth $1,440 altogether. And 1 diamond ring and 1 silver ring that together are worth $660. Then how much is a silver ring worth?

 

Not a super hard problem, but I bet some parents can't do the math.

 

Bill

 

Hmm, this just requires some very simple thinking.  My dad, who is practically illiterate (dyslexic) and dropped out of school at 15, would have solved this question almost faster than he could read it.

 

I think some people are wired for practical math and others . . . others have been made too afraid to try.

 

[8filltheheart]

Well, I know where my feet are planted on the issue. :) I'm pretty positive my 8 yr olds would be considered "behind" by the methods used by ps's for evaluations to their "standards". My goals for 8 yr olds just happen to be completely different. And no way do I believe getting hold of them younger changes the long term outcome bc I believe the goals are completely wrong to begin with.

 

Fwiw......here is a story of what we experienced today at one of the top, maybe the top, public universities in our state. We met with the dean and undergrad advisor for the physics dept. The undergrad physics advisor went into a rant about how National Merit Scholars and AP scholars with 4.0s are a dime a dozen on the campus and that admissions dept complained that all the applicants look exactly the same on paper that they no longer can distinguish amongst the students. He went on to say that the students in his honors introductory physics class are crying bc they can't do the work, that they don't understand the math (they have all taken AP cal and have placed into cal physics), and that they don't know what they think they know.

 

We are a country obsessed with what does the test say. How can we get them to excel on the tests?? My response to the individual was that my child had never been taught to a test in his life. He has been taught to think.

 

Seriously, I don't give a flip about tests. I most definitely do not care what ps standards are. They are definitely not going to aid children by grabbing hold of them younger and sticking them in seats to do more academics at a younger age. They do not have the answers......obviously!!! The kids that have the golden tickets saying they are the best and brightest.......National Merit Scholars.......are not able to function at the level the tests say they should be able to.

 

Give me my "behind" 8 yr olds any day. They know how to think about the things on their own without being told how they are supposed to think. I have to laugh bc my kids are not great standardized test takers. They simply aren't. But, in the real academic world where Scantron sheets don't represent some skewed version of academic excellence........my kids are out-performing The vast majority of their college level peers. I had to chuckle inwardly today bc this man was treating my ds like he didn't know anything. But here is the dumb homeschool kid who made a 100 on his last Mechanics 1 exam (that's a 300 level physics course) while the kids around him (college sophomores and jrs) made 60s.

 

I do discount what the local ps schools are doing bc I think what they are doing is flawed.

[RoundAbout]

We just spent a month visiting friends who have a child the same age as my son, and who attends a good but diverse public school in a major metro area. I got to see her first grade homework up close and personal as well as talk to her about her class experiences. She also wanted to do school with us on several days so it was interesting to compare. I didnt get to visit her class nor do I have a clue what the testing standards are but most of her school work seemed appropriate for an average 1st grader. Her schedule looked something like this:

 

Word study - 30 min. This included spelling and some phonics. Word families like "still", "will", "hill"

 

Math - 70 min. They use Everyday Math, and the work seemed ridiculously easy to me but I have a son who is working through Beast Academy and has finished RightStart C. Mostly single digit addition and subtraction with work on making tens and with bigger numbers. My friend's child is very bright but uses fingers to add and mixes up place value constantly, so I assume the math instruction is not fabulous.

 

Reading - 90 min. The reading instruction is highly differentiated and the teacher is a reading expert. They do a combination of reading independently, with a teacher, and in small groups. They have a daily reader that has to be taken home and signed. My friend's daughter is an advanced reader who is reading chapter books at home so she would often choose a super easy daily reader to get through it in 5 minutes and then read her own book. At school her small group was reading stuff like Mercy Watson.

 

Writing - 70 min. Everything you hear is true! Gobs of writing, invented spelling, zero handwriting instruction! My friend's daughter loves to write so this was not a problem but I inwardly cringed every time I saw her write because she makes all of her letters incorrectly. We use WWE 1 and she could not handle the narrations, which surprised me. She wanted to do cursive with my son but was frustrated by having to do it a certain way. Her story writing is fabulous though and I have bumped up expectations for my son beyond WWE based on what I saw of their writing.

 

Recess - 30 minutes daily. Not enough.

 

Art, PE, music - one of these daily for 30 minutes

 

Science, Social studies - 30 minutes daily alternate days. Really dumb worksheets like matching animals to their habitats.

 

There were a few other things in there. But those were the basics.

 

So I don't quite know what to make of this. Except for the writing it all seemed very developmentally appropriate, and even quite easy but my standards. I think what grabbed me the most was the complete inefficiency of it - 70 minutes daily on math to only be at the point of answering questions like "fill in the missing number in this series 28, _, 30!" The mentality of just getting through things, getting the right answer, and filling in the blanks was more disturbing to me than the level they were working at. She seemed really uncomfortable with open ended questions or BA style problem solving, in contrast to my son who always wants to figure things out for himself. Some of this is personality I'm sure, but I don't think the school work helped.

[....]

Writing - 70 min. Everything you hear is true! Gobs of writing, invented spelling, zero handwriting instruction! My friend's daughter loves to write so this was not a problem but I inwardly cringed every time I saw her write because she makes all of her letters incorrectly. We use WWE 1 and she could not handle the narrations, which surprised me. She wanted to do cursive with my son but was frustrated by having to do it a certain way. Her story writing is fabulous though and I have bumped up expectations for my son beyond WWE based on what I saw of their writing.

 

 

My middle schoolers are in a program where they spend several hours a week with public school kids their age.  They have written homework and group activities together.  Anyway, we've noticed that the schools here (we're in TX) aren't focusing on skills.  It seems like they're getting a bunch of content, but they're missing skills.  For middle and elementary school, they really need to be cementing their skills like writing, spelling, etc before they're ready to take off in high school.  I also keep hearing from ps parents that spelling/handwriting is not important, because there's spell-check and the kids can just keyboard.  Hmmm...  

 

Also, someone mentioned that they hear homeschooling parents saying that any homeschooling is better than ps.  Personally (and I'm around a number of homeschooling families), I hear more of the "we're not doing enough", "my kids are behind", "I need to push them to get ahead, so they're not behind"...homeschoolers frantically worried (obsessed) that their kids are behind.   :confused1:   One of my friends was so worried about how far behind her kids were that she just put them back in ps (and the school said they were right where they were supposed to be).  So, I hear more of that than anything else.  Maybe I hang out with the insecure crowd.   :tongue_smilie:   

[Dmmetler]

Do the math?  Heck, most of the parents in our local public school can't speak English.  No way can they help their kids with this kind of math problem.   Gahhh, these conversations make me so depressed.  Sure, I'm doing this great thing for my kids by homeschooling them, but they still have to live in the world where kids - most kids?   aren't learning the skills they are going to need to make it.  This affects all of us, even those of us who live in - and love -  our homeschooling bubbles.

 

I wish I had a freaking clue how to make things better for kids.  All kids, or more kids, not just my kids.  If I did I would have something meaningful to do with the rest of my life.  As it is, I have to focus on the kids I got in front of me.

 

This is something I wrestle with, and I hear from family far too often. Having taught in inner city schools, I know that teachers can make a difference-but that it's kind of like bailing a sinking ship with a teacup. You make some progress, but there's so much coming in from outside that it's hard, no matter how hard you work, to actually make an impact. Honestly, my biggest impact when I was in the school system was writing grants to fund (and then teaching, free) extracurricular classes-I'm pretty sure I had a bigger impact on kids via teaching band, choir, guitar class, percussion ensemble, and so on than I did in the 16 hours of general music and 10 hours of math I was funded to teach each week.

 

But, at the same time, I cannot imagine my DD in schools with the kids I taught. I just can't. And even though the neighborhood PS near us is prettier, higher performing, and "nicer", I'm not sure that the kids in the inner city school aren't getting better instruction and more focused education. My neighborhood elementary school seems to be all icing and no cake-lots of special events, programs, field trips, and projects, mixed in with a ton of testing. Lots of homework and parent complaints that the material in the homework isn't actually being taught. Pretty much every year I end up teaching whatever 5th graders are in dance that year how to do fractions, because neither the girls nor their parents have a clue.

 

Whereas, in the inner city school, the focus was on getting these kids to a minimum standard. Lots of basic instruction, lots of academics. Little homework, because the kids didn't have help at home. If a project was done, it had to be completely done at school and all supplies provided. Fun stuff was in the after school extended day program, not during the school day.

 

I'm well aware that I abandoned my students to meet the needs of my own child, and it bothers me. At the same time, though, I don't know of any other options that would meet her needs locally.

[jennynd]

My school district IMO is one of the better one in NY.

after the standardized test results out in August , there were a lot parents panic about how can their kids who earn 90's in math and score a "2" (consider below standard) in the test. I didn't quite understand until this year that my Son is in "accelerated" math. His first test result came back, he got 85, I was just about start yelling at him and I notice .. wait, he didn't get single question wrong. EVERYTHING is correct. how did he get 85?? It turns out the teacher do not like he solve a 4 digit divide by 1 digit question using ÷ . She want him use long division symbol )^____

So points were taken beacuse of that. BUT the answer was right.. another question , at the end it was 30 * 600 and my son quick have 18*10^3.. no.. that is not acceptable, he has to write 3*10*6*100 then 18000 then 18*10^3... I was so angry when I went through the test. there were 6 question were like that. She took 15 points and that is out of 25 question total. They are not only dumb down, they are punsih the kids who are smart... Not this is 5th grade accelerated math.. not 3rd grade

[madteaparty]

What we increasingly face is bifurcated schools with "haves and have nots" where it is like a Tale of Two Cities in being the "best of times, and the worst of times." Way too many schools are not putting out graduates with the skills necessary to compete in a global economy, while some schools (or programs/academies within schools) are putting out students that are meeting very high standards.

 

Leaving behind a majority is not a good situation for our nation's future.

 

Bill

Absolutely. You cannot compare a NEST or Andersen to the rest of the NYC public schools. Even the food they serve in the cafeteria is vastly different.

[MotherOfBoys]

We are in a district where a lot (not majority but a lot) of students graduate without being able to read or do math without a calculator. There has to be a point where those students are held back or separated when they still can read at a certain level or do basic math. Otherwise it hurts other students (like in all those team work projects :lol: ). It's unfair to ask them to move on to history reading and analysis or algebra if they can't do the basics. Instead we dumb down the higher level subjects because they can't do it.

[bolt.]

I think it's because people can't distinctly separate ideas like:

 

- Minimum standard

- Average accomplishment

- Reasonable target accomplishment

- Range of material

- High end accomplishment

 

When they use the word "standard" it should mean "every nerotypical student should find this attainable, given competent classroom instruction, without extra help." -- 90% of students should meet a "standard".

 

However, if they call those the "standards" -- they seem to have very low standards. If they limit the "range of material" to that kind of a standard, they would end up teaching very little material (in a very repetitive manner) without any variance.

 

So, they decide a "range of material" and call it a "standard" -- which implies that nearly every student is expected to understand and retain the entire range of material for their grade level.

 

But, of course, some do, and some don't. Aparently 1/3 do, and 2/3 don't. That seems well enough, but the vocabulary makes it seem tragic.

 

I've they would use words to discribe how much of the range of material is being retained, or how well skills are being attained -- that would make more sense. They could say, "Our minimum standard for this grade is... But our target is that most students do better than that, including... We teach more material than we expect each student to retain every year. Students who retain all, or nearly all of that material are considered particularly successful."

 

As a college prof, it would be crazy for the expectation to be that all my students retain all that I teach. If they do, they are A students -- but most average students are B and C students. That's normal. Discribing B and C students as "below the standard" because they are measured against *everything* I am teaching as "the standard" would be just plain illogical.

[SnMomof7]

Socioeconomic status is more than just income level though. It takes education and occupation (and other things) into account. So if you have a two parents who went to college, for example, even if their income is lower because one of them isn't working, there SES is going to be higher than a family where the educational attainment is lower.

Hmmm, that same study also shows that it isn't just income though, that the children of homeschooling parents also generally do well despite the education levels achieved by their parents. Between my husband and I we have little formal education together with a very small income. Our children are doing very well.

[EKS]

Hmmm, that same study also shows that it isn't just income though, that the children of homeschooling parents also generally do well despite the education levels achieved by their parents. Between my husband and I we have little formal education together with a very small income. Our children are doing very well.

 

Could you provide a link to the study?  I'd like to look at it.

 

[kiwik]

Depends what you call "access." The Magnet Schools, which tend towards being "higher level" schools, are open to anyone based on lottery admissions. And they provide transportation.

 

There are other Middle School programs one "tests" into (these are "open" to all, but the tests favor the advantaged, as tests will generally do).

 

The Public Charters are open to all. But sought out by "the motivated."

 

Better "local" Middle Schools (non-Magnets) tend to be in "better" areas. If one is not "local" there are ways (like getting permits) for people who are savvy about working the system. But no transportation.

 

The reality is highly motivated people can (if they have the will, time, and energy) usually find a reasonable opportunity for a hard-working student.

 

The other reality is poor students usually attend their impoverished neighborhood school. Those that get into one of the "better" schools don't always make it, as the expectations can be too high. There are always the exceptional cases of intelligent and hard working kids who are determined to "make it" and do.

 

Is this "access?" Sort of yes, sort of no, I guess. It is pretty limiting actual practice.

 

Bill

There is nothing like poverty, poorly paid work and poor education for preventing the ability of a "motivated" parent to go out and slay dragons. Mostly people in that situation are focused on food, shelter and clothing and don't expect much from authorities anyway.

[kiwik]

Recalling my teacher's education days, aren't grade level standards set at the 50th percentile? So we'd expect, by default, half of students not meeting the standards. Nitpick point, but one worth making.

There seems to be this weird assumption that 90 % of kids should be above average. this is possible but would require a very strange distribution. I'm pretty sure it explains the difference between average and median wages where I am though.

[Chrysalis Academy]

The goal here, in a diverse moderate income district, from the district staff and from those speaking in the public forum, is equality of outcome.

Anything else is elitism. 

Therefore, offering academic track classes above Regent's Level on the public dime is a no-no as is offering any class that is not required for the diploma or mandated by state law. That money is better spent on special education (which does not include those who are high IQ but have no other special condition), remediation and 1:1 behavior aides. 

 

The reality here is the districts with high poverty have more money per pupil (nonsped) than those who don't, due to all the funding that is available specifically for that population.  If a nonwealthy person wanted Orchestra, AP Classes, Honors Math, he would put his family in a low income district here and put his extracurricular money into martial arts or he would mortgage heavily and be in a high income district.   One would have to go to the very very wealthy areas such as Westchester County and Long Island to find  a significantly high level of funding per pupil allocated to nonsped students - a funding level high enough for AP, IB, teachers that can teach Calc, etc.

 

On the point about parents not speaking the language. It doesn't matter here, in a diverse area of the nation.  We have many parents here who do not speak a word of English when they arrive and a good many students also.  If they come from a culture that values scholarship, their children excel in math and come to excel in LA.  Why? Mama is usually a college grad from the country of origin. Her children have a good math education from either her supplementation or their home country, they study when they get here, and they learn the language by immersion plus their ESL classes.    What matters here is culture. Can the parent manage to get the child on the bus daily?  Is the child expected to cooperate with teacher? Is the child expected to learn in class?

 

Right.  It's different in an area where most recent arrivals work in agriculture, and may not have completed high school in their own country.  Language is clearly not the only issue.

[SnMomof7]

Could you provide a link to the study? I'd like to look at it.

 

I think this is it:

 

http://www.nheri.org/HomeschoolPopulationReport2010.pdf

 

the rest is my bunny trail to find it, feel free to ignore that.

 

I am an infograhic a fan. I'm also fairly sure someone has shared this one here, I traced it back to its origin:

 

http://www.topmastersineducation.com/homeschooled/

 

For visual types. there is also a list of references at the bottom, both on the image and in the text o ly version, including, most notably:

 

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/2009_Ray_StudyFINAL.pdf

 

Also very visual, see figures 5 and 6 re: socioeconomic variances.

 

They say to contact these fellows for the original data (for the most part):

 

http://www.nheri.org/

 

I'm trying to hunt down an exact link, but I have a baby who needs attention. Does anyone have a direct link bookmarked?

[Crimson Wife]

Could you provide a link to the study?  I'd like to look at it.

The original one was this one: http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/543. There was a more recent study done (my oldest was part of it in 2nd grade when she tested through Seton) and that one is here: http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/ray2009/

[Murphy101]

Actively involved and pushing education parents can greatly mitigate socioeconomic issues wrt to their children's success in any educational environment. That's not news at all. I would think it also true of even low income disadvantaged home schoolers.

 

However, I would also note money does buy better. I ticks me off, frustrates me and more, but it is what it is and I won't BS a newbie that they will always be able to give their child what they need or do it affordably. Even in home school circles, the prices can be astronomical to someone who doesn't make upper middle class wages. (They think it's cheap bc it's cheaper than a one year pricey private school tuition. Which is a ridiculous comparison imnsho.)

 

My only comfort is that schools often don't provide it either, so at least with homeschooling, I can try to get it on my own or know my kid won't be the only one without it.

[SnMomof7]

Thanks CW! The reason I brought this up was NOT to trumpet homeschooling academic success, but rather to toss another idea into the mix, that of individualized parental care and attention. Socioeconomic limitations are so often touted as limiting educational factors. I find it depressing to be honest. I don't believe that parents without a college education or much money will fail to educate their children adequately when they prioritize time with their children rather than relying on external parties alone for that education.

 

Rant below:

 

Customized, tutor-style education (methods often utilized by homeschoolers) goes FAR to prevent gaps in literacy and other basic foundational skills. When children don't learn to read on the class schedule (my husband) or they miss important mathematical building blocks (myself), it is far too often a game-over scenario. How are such children ever to progress well if basic foundations are missing?

 

Teach children where they are and build for there. Do not force them on into more advanced skills and subjects when basic building blocks are not in place. More affluent families may be able to hire tutors, but this philosophy of self-paced learning is not limited to specific income and educational brackets (or curriculum choices and educational venues for that matter).

[whitestavern]

I'm not seeing this "let them coast in Middle School" phenomenon play out in our local schools. the children of friends that I know are working very hard, with appropriately challenging work. hardly taking it "easy." Granted most of the people we know look to place their children in the more academically advanced schools or advanced programs within schools, but to describe what's going on as "slacking off" is very wide of the mark.

 

I've said it before (and it is never popular) but I think some homeschoolers are kidding themselves about what's going on in the better public schools (including Middle Schools).

 

Bill

 

I'd be curious to know where these great middle schools are and what they're doing that makes them great, and how to identify if a school is academically advanced.  I don't have a lot to compare to since I homeschooled up until this year, but my dd (8th) is going to a blue ribbon parochial school this year--you would think that means something-- and I'm not overly impressed with they're doing.  I don't see it as slacking off necessarily, but neither do I think it is challenging.  Our public schools are consistently rated high and from everything I've seen/heard they are not academically challenging either.

[Dmmetler]

And not reading English can make it difficult to know what a word problem is asking in English. That's not an uneducated or ignorance thing-that's a language barrier thing.  My DD sometimes has struggled on word problems from different publishers, all IN English because they use different terms for the same action.

 

 

[MysteryJen]

As regards the Singapore problem, if I moved to a foreign country today and someone gave me a page of math that was all numbers, I could do it.  If I received a page of word problems I could not. The language barrier is real. And if some ESL kids have educated parents, they will leap that barrier well, but they will still look "behind" for a while. If some ESL kids have struggling parents, they will struggle for much longer.

 

I don't think anyone meant to imply that non-English speaking kids were not smart, just that a language barrier is a very real thing that some areas of the country deal with more than others. And many areas have many different languages in the same classroom, all needing to meet the same standards.

[eloquacious]

are you sure? Many of those who cant speak english may have plenty of skills. Just met a family who came from Mexico, where dad was a business man and mom an RN. Now dad works construction and mom at taco bell. So dont assume lack of english is lack of brains.

So true. I've known college professors who work in home remodeling. My own mother-in-law was a chemical engineer with a Master's from a prestigious Russian program who wound up working as a house cleaner when she first emigrated. She eventually studied to become a dental hygienist, but those were hard years for the family and I don't doubt many judged them without knowing anything.

[GloriaMS]

I have a lot of friends that moved to foreign countries without knowing the language.  After one year of intense language courses for the kids, provided by the school, the kids did great in school and were ranking at the top of the class.  It has a lot to do with the mentality of the family.  They were poor, uneducated (but very smart), some poor but educated parents that recognized their kids talents and supported their kids education.  My own parents didn't have college degrees because of the socioeconomic-political environment they grew up in, but they educated themselves, and that without internet. Our library contained hundreds of volumes of classical books , my mom played well 4 string instruments and we were send to the best schools in the country.  We were poor (though i didn't know it) but we were highly educated.  

 

So, what I mean to say is that it depends where you come from.  Your cultural background, your mentality.  Now I live in America, and I am shocked by the educational opportunities this country offers (i don't necessarily mean schools) and surprised to see how many around me do not take advantage of them. In America, financial poverty also means poverty  mentality.  It is not so were I come from.    

[Crimson Wife]

To answer the ID question:  look at the coursework offered. An advanced school will have seventh grade Algebra 1.  Those students will also be taking the Regents US History Exam in eighth rather than eleventh grade. The high school it feeds into will have AP or better Sciences and honors Math. There will be DiffEq or higher offered as a class, not independent study or seminar. There will not be metal detectors at the doors, and there will be no police presence on campus.

 

These schools are located where there is monetary wealth and low poverty or they are selective in admissions.

7th grade Algebra 1 doesn't necessarily mean that the course will be challenging. I would look for 7th grade HONORS Algebra 1, where the bright students are in a course by themselves rather than just accelerated one year. Our district offers acceleration in math starting in 7th, but doesn't sort students by aptitude until 11th.

[MBM]

A significant part of the problem is that the majority of children are experiencing enough early trauma to impact their ability to learn well. The ACE (Adverse Childhood Experience) study bears this out. Paul Tough's book How Children Succeed explains in greater detail how early trauma affects kids and what can be done to help them, but here are three short articles that explain some of it, too:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-ellen-stevens/the-adverse-childhood-exp_1_b_1943647.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-ellen-stevens/the-adverse-childhood-exp_4_b_1943772.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-ellen-stevens/the-adverse-childhood-exp_7_b_1944199.html

 

From part 3, third link above:

 

If a bear threatens you every single day, your emergency response system is activated over and over and over again. You're always ready to fight or flee from the bear, but the part of your brain - the prefrontal cortex - that's called upon to diagram a sentence or do math becomes stunted, because, in brains, emergencies - such as fleeing bears - take precedence over doing math.

 

For Harris' patients who had four or more categories of adverse childhood experiences "their odds of having learning or behavior problems in school were 32 times as high as kids who had no adverse childhood experiences," she told Glass.

 

Together, the two discoveries - the epidemiology of the ACE Study and the brain research -- reveal a story too compelling to ignore:

 

Children with toxic stress live much of their lives in fight, flight or fright (freeze) mode. They respond to the world as a place of constant danger. With their brains overloaded with stress hormones and unable to function appropriately, they can't focus on learning. They fall behind in school or fail to develop healthy relationships with peers or create problems with teachers and principals because they are unable to trust adults. Some kids do all three. With despair, guilt and frustration pecking away at their psyches, they often find solace in food, alcohol, tobacco, methamphetamine, inappropriate sex, high-risk sports, and/or work and over-achievement.

 

They don't regard these coping methods as problems. Consciously or unconsciously, they use them as solutions to escape from depression, anxiety, anger, fear and shame.

 

 

Unless a person gets the right help, the coping problems that helped them survive, hinder them later in life. The early trauma has a lifelong affect on their cells. That is why they have trouble learning easily and tend to develop autoimmune diseases, heart problems, etc. and, thus, die too early. Proper intervention is key.

 

Another problem is that too few schools are actively seeking ways to help their students learn better by using methods that research has proven to be helpful. I'm reading Dan Goleman's book Focus: The Hidden Driver of Excellence and in it, Goleman explains the many ways attention is adversely affected and what can be done to improve it. One example: a student's mind will wander about 20 to 40% of the time when reading a text. Students who are taught how to focus better -- which can be learned -- will improve their comprehension. Developing focus is crucial to learning.

 

Another problem is that people have different ideologies regarding what should be taught, how it should be taught and whether it should be taught.

 

I don't think one answer exists when the problem is multi-faceted.

 

 

[GloriaMS]

A significant part of the problem is that the majority of children are experiencing enough early trauma to impact their ability to learn well. The ACE (Adverse Childhood Experience) study bears this out. Paul Tough's book How Children Succeed explains in greater detail how early trauma affects kids and what can be done to help them, but here are three short articles that explain some of it, too:

 

 

 

Very interesting!!! 

7th grade Algebra 1 doesn't necessarily mean that the course will be challenging. I would look for 7th grade HONORS Algebra 1, where the bright students are in a course by themselves rather than just accelerated one year. Our district offers acceleration in math starting in 7th, but doesn't sort students by aptitude until 11th.

 

I'm not even sure that the existence of some class called "Algebra" even means much anymore, at any grade.  I think there's been a ton of "title inflation" and content inflation, so that two different classes, both called "Algebra" can have very different content and rigor.  When you can earn points just for attempting homework, and "earn back" test points by doing corrections or retaking the same test, and earn points for "classroom participation", there can be a lot of kids passing with high scores without actually learning much of anything.  The trend to pushing Algebra earlier and earlier, I suspect, has been accompanied by a trend for dumbing it down.  Frankly, I'd prefer to teach a rigorous, full Algebra when the student is ready for it.  Accelerating into a watered down version doesn't help anyone.

 

The only metric I trust now is AP exam scores, but they are generally only at the high school level.  I don't think it is possible to teach to these tests.

 

I do agree with you though, that the tracked classroom is a good thing for the upper-tracked kids, as it reduces a lot of friction.

[wapiti]

I'd be curious to know where these great middle schools are and what they're doing that makes them great, and how to identify if a school is academically advanced.  I don't have a lot to compare to since I homeschooled up until this year, but my dd (8th) is going to a blue ribbon parochial school this year--you would think that means something-- and I'm not overly impressed with they're doing.  I don't see it as slacking off necessarily, but neither do I think it is challenging.  Our public schools are consistently rated high and from everything I've seen/heard they are not academically challenging either.

 

It is difficult to know the levels of instruction and challenge involved without having had a child attend the school such that you can see first-hand, day to day.  One clue might be what texts they use in which classes, etc.  For example, our highly-rated public middle school has three tracks for math (algebra 1 in 7th or 8th or 9th).  The middle school uses Prentice Hall for algebra 1, or at least did the last time I emailed a math teacher to ask, and that is not a weak text.  It wouldn't be my choice to homeschool with, but it is by no means fluffy or less than a traditional scope for algebra 1 (caveat, I don't know whether they finish it).  I have also witnessed the team from this school place in the local Mathcounts chapter competition, though I'm not sure that means anything for the general student population as much as the "mathy" student population and probably just means they have a really good coach and some very bright students.  I do not know what the high school next to it uses for algebra 1, though I am aware that other high schools in the district use some fuzzy math texts that I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole.

 

Incidentally, my dd12 is using the same Prentice Hall text for algebra 1 in her private middle school - her school teaches alg 1 over two full school years, with various projects thrown in as well.  It isn't AoPS-challenging (what is), but it seems sufficient to me for an alg 1 course.  This past weekend, we attended an open house at the private high school we are considering.  I spoke at length with a math teacher.  She said that they will not allow students to place out of algebra in high school if the middle school course was watered-down - from what I understand, not only is there the placement test (which I have seen as a sample is available on-line) but they also inquire about the text used via the math teacher recommendation form.

 

Eta, I think the best way to figure this out is to talk to teachers and ask lots and lots of questions.  FWIW, I've emailed quite a few teachers at the wide variety of schools in my area to ask about math texts, for example, and I almost always hear back in a timely manner.  None has ever refused to tell me what they use.  Our district also has scope and sequence info on the district website.  Likewise, I would not hesitate to ask questions about that.  On the other hand, some subjects are less amenable to this approach; it seems nearly impossible to guess about the quality of writing instruction, for example.

[wapiti]

The only metric I trust now is AP exam scores, but they are generally only at the high school level.  I don't think it is possible to teach to these tests.

 

Unfortunately, I think it's quite possible to perform well on AP calc (at least AB, IME) following a shallow, procedure-oriented calc course, so yes, I think there's teaching to the test for at least some APs.

[8filltheheart]

Unfortunately, I think it's quite possible to perform well on AP calc (at least AB, IME) following a shallow, procedure-oriented calc course, so yes, I think there's teaching to the test for at least some APs.

 

If you look at what I posted further up this thread, ds and I had the experience of a physics professor ranting at us about high stat kids with boatloads of AP scores not being able to do the math for his honors physics introductory course.  :sad:  (WHile his rant might have been valid......it certainly shouldn't have been directed toward us!! :001_huh: )

[8filltheheart]

Yeah this drives me crazy.  Anyone can slap the title "Algebra" on a book, but not all of the books are created equally.  I wish there was a standard.  But of course people are already screaming about that idea.

 

I detest the idea personally.   Some kids need the content of an AoPS book.  Some kids can only handle the content of TT or MUS.   THe majority are going to fall somewhere in between.   But, the idea that there is a single approach to something  called "algebra" that needs to be contained in every alg text is completely ridiculous b/c it would be at the expense of those that can handle more and those that can only handle less.

 

The distinction that needs to be delineated is what the actual course covers and not pretend it is something it isn't.

I think your state treats accel Algebra differently than mine. Here, it is the same course no matter what grade it is taught in.  All students must pass the end of course Regent's Exam, unless they are below 8th grade, 

 

I think the Regent's Exam is just a New York State thing.  I'm not sure any other states have an equivalent.

[DarlaS]

The standards are too weak for advantaged children, and too strong for disadvantaged children.

 

The problem seems to be with the lifestyle choices..lack of quality food, lack of mental stimulation, etc. The Washington Post has an article on this too. It's titled "Children from poor families lag in cognitive devlopment and other areas..".  The Hart-Risley study on the 30 Million Word gap has been picked up by schools here...they do a lot of reading to prek-2 students to try to make up the lack of vocab. in the home life. They have not figured out how to overcome the genetic damage (for ex. effects of fetal alcohol syndrome)  to catch these children up by age 21.

:iagree:

 

The vocabulary thing is key. If you do not understand what is being said to you, you cannot learn anything else.

 

I recall being out in public with my babies, and even in the mostly middle class area where I live, it was considered odd to talk to babies & toddlers. Why? Because they don't understand you. So, don't talk to them until they're old enough to understand? How in the world does that even make sense? If you don't talk to them, they'll never understand!

 

Reading is great, but babies whose mothers speak to them have higher IQ's, speak earlier and use more complex sentences earlier. This PROFOUND effect of being spoken to often while still infants and toddlers sadly cannot be duplicated by reading to preschoolers.

 

What you talk about does not matter. I never did it on purpose trying to create brainy kids either. I just could not imagine not talking to them. They're PEOPLE. I know an infant does not care about how mom is choosing short bananas for cereal and long bananas for daddy's lunch, how red apples are good for eating, but green ones better for pie etc. They just need to hear words if they're going to learn the language. So I chattered at my kids and endured the stares of all those who clearly thought me a freak.