What you do if you were hiring in this situation?

[Audrey]

First, this is NOT a JAWM. Please don't.

 

Background: I am sitting on a community committee to hire a new daycare director. The daycare is run by the town and a collection of organizations and although it seems like that would be a good idea, it doesn't usually work very well because this committee is made up of people who really don't like each other at all and whose organizations are forced to compete for the same small amount of funding. And, yes... I admit, i really don't like 4 out of the other 6 people.

 

The situation is: We have to hire a new daycare director as the old one is taking a better position elsewhere. One of the people applying is someone who normally sits on this community committee. She is qualified. She has experience. Since she is applying, she can't vote or be part of the discussions, so we could possibly be faced with a tie, (but there are provisions to deal with that). But... I happen to know something about this person and something they did at their last position that caused them to be fired. I did see that on her ROE (record of employment) that it said fired, but doesn't give a reason. She doesn't know that the committee was asked to pull the ROE of applicants (which any potential employer may do if you apply for a job with them). She really thinks that she's got the job because of who she is and that she is buddies with half the committee. FTR, I really don't like her. Really. Don't. But, if she were a good candidate, I could easily see past that. However, I know why she got fired and that, IMO, makes her a rotten candidate for the job.

 

I want to tell the committee, but I don't know if I should, or if maybe my dislike of the person is clouding my judgment. So.... Knowing that the reason for a firing could be requested, would you tell the committee what you know, or tell the committee that since there is a firing, that the reason should be requested, or would you say nothing... or... ???? What would you do?

 

ETA: updated in post #26 and requoted below----

If this helps... in answer to a few of the questions posed in the thread:

 

I am the one who was elected to pull the ROEs of all applicants and to contact references and previous employers if the candidates make it through the first round of interviews. Someone up thread said I should be sure to point it out. I'm definitely pointing out the firing. There is another ROE that is pretty... unusual, and I'm going to make sure they notice that, too.

 

I know the reason she was fired from the previous employer because I was involved in a peripherally supervisory capacity to the organization who fired her. I have read all the documentation.

 

I don't want to post the reason, but it was a direct violation of policy. The organzation went through all the proper documentation, including verbal and written warnings, so it was not as if it was a one-time thing, but rather a repeated issue.

[SunnyDays]

Hmm. The fact that there are kids at stake in the equation makes it more serious, IMO, than if she were applying to be a groundskeeper, KWIM?? I don't think I could let it go. Perhaps the prudent way to approach it would be to insist on finding out the reason for the firing. If people hear it just from you, knowing you don't like her (if they can sense that), it may be written off. If you can get it "officially" from someone it must be taken seriously.

[Tullia]

I would suggest that you not say anything about the specifics to the committee--you don't want to be accused of slander or get yourself into trouble with a violation of employment laws. I think that given the nature of the job you need to tell the committee to request documentation of the reasons. ETA: I don't think the other committee members should be considering anyone's personal opinions about the candidate--it's about you and the rest of the committee exercising "due diligence." Also, take this for what it's worth; I don't know what the legal situation is where you live.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Tullia

[Impish]

From what you've said, the committee was asked to pull the ROE, so therefore the committee is entitled, if not obligated to take that under consideration.

 

I'd absolutely be wanting to know what the reason for her termination was, in front of the committee. And, if the explaination didn't ring true, if she wasn't up front and honest about it, the job would go to someone else.

[Erica in OR]

Really, it's just good hiring practice for the committee to investigate past employment, particularly that related to the position she's applying for. If the record they'll see says she was fired, if they don't further delve into that with the applicant and/or the previous employer, there's something wrong with the hiring system.

 

Erica in OR

[chiguirre]

How do you know the reason for her firing? Is it common knowledge in your town and other committee members might know too? If you're the only one who would know, I think you have to either tell them the reason or insist that the committee contact her former employer to hear it from the horse's mouth. You have my sympathy, that's a bad situation to be in.

[Mergath]

It would probably depend on what exactly happened at her last job. If she was stealing post its, I'd let it go. But if it was something more serious, I'd say something. There are kids involved, and you don't screw around with stuff like that.

[Dandelion]

How do you know why she was fired? My approach would depend on the source of that info.

 

If I was sure that the committee would accept the source of my information as legitimate (vs. dismissing it as unreliable or "hearsay"), I'd share the reason for the termination directly with the committee. If the source of the info might be questioned by the committee, I would just share my concern about the termination and strongly recommend that the committee find out the reason.

 

I think the fact that you dislike this individual is irrelevant. Anytime a candidate has been fired from a previous position, a hiring committee should be looking into that. If you don't think they'll look into this on their own, the only right course of action is to bring it up.

[Danestress]

I would tell them you have concerns about what you know of the firing and think they should look into it, but I would not tell them the reason.

 

You have an ethical duty to hire in the best interests of the organization, so insist they follow up. But I would let them hear the situation from a source other than me so that I could not be accused of gossip or, worse, libel.

[Joker]

I think I would try just pointing out that her ROE states she was fired and I think the committee should investigate why. Of course, I worked in HR in the US before staying home with dds and I was never allowed to give out any information other than dates of hire and termination. Is it the same in Canada?

[nono]

Ha, if it were me, I'd likely go into the committee meeting with my copy of the ROE highlighted where it said fired and say, "What's everybody think about this?"

 

But I can be a real b*llbuster...so....

[Annie G]

I guess I would expect that during the interview she'd be asked why she was fired- it's a completely reasonable question. If she explains herself, the committee can take the info and weigh whether it disqualifies her for consideration or not. But it sounds as if you don't even think they're going to ask. That would bother me- if an unknown candidate comes in with a firing listed on the ROE, would the committee ask? In other words, are they treating your 'friend' more favorably? That would bug me.

But I'd go to lengths to avoid being the one to pass on the reason for the firing- they should do their due diligence so you don't have to pass on info that the candidate should share.

[MomatHWTK]

Do you think they will ask why she was fired since they have the ROE stating that she was? If so, I would allow someone else to pose the question. If she tells the truth, all good. If she does not tell the truth, then -assuming the reliability/admissability of my information, I would address her directly during the interview. I would state factually what I knew and ask her to respond to the allegation. Beyond that, it becomes a she said/she said. If the committee stands behind her, I would abstain from voting or enter a negative vote with comments depending on the procedures allowed.

[Cera]

I would insist that since there is a firing the reason should be investigated. That only makes sense, especially when children are involved.

 

I wouldn't tell anyone the reason for the firing yourself, it is the responsibility of the committee to request the official reason from the previous employer.

[bettyandbob]

I wouldn't tell anyone the reason for the firing yourself, it is the responsibility of the committee to request the official reason from the previous employer.

 

The problem with this is many employers no longer provide reasons when th request is made. I encountered this issue years ago hen I was doing an investigation.

[misty.warden]

Ha, if it were me, I'd likely go into the committee meeting with my copy of the ROE highlighted where it said fired and say, "What's everybody think about this?"

 

But I can be a real b*llbuster...so....

 

 

Agreed. Especially if it was something that was illegal or would make me uncomfortable with her being in a position of authority over my kids. Slander is only slander if it isn't true.

[FaithManor]

If this were a position only working with adults and one that was not likely to inspire a turn of events that would lead to whatever behavior caused her to be pink slipped, then I would probably let the rest of the committee members decide if they wanted to pursue the ROE further.

 

However, children do not have any way of defending themselves. If this woman is known for impulsive or reckless decisions, or has a poor record on safety, or has exhibited anger management issues, made comments that indicate she might discipline inappropriately, or shows signs of instability, then I think the kids' right to have a director that is level headed, calm, collected, professional, and capable of dealing with all of the myriad of problems that occur when groups of children are together, trumps everything.

 

I know it's very difficult when you feel like you might have an ulterior motive. But, you get absolved in this case because the well being of the children comes first always.

 

Sorry you have to be caught in such an awkward position.

 

Faith

[Tammyla]

I'd want to know the reason for her being fired, even if I did like her.

 

 

I sit on a local board here, and I'm often one of the few willing to ask why or for more details. Rubber stamping and a willingness to be intentionally dense is not in my DNA.

[elegantlion]

I don't think you're letting personal feelings cloud your judgment. Facts are facts, those should be known when making a decision, especially one that involves children. Besides if she was hired without all of the facts present and a similar situation occurs, wouldn't you feel you had not done your full and complete duty. Presumably this is not a popularity contest, so the woman should be aware that her past termination may cause her some trouble. She's the one that was fired, you didn't do it, no reason for you to brush it under the rug.

[Starr]

A company may not tell you why someone is fired but if you ask, "did she steal post its?" they may have to answer directly.

[Ellie]

I don't think you're letting personal feelings cloud your judgment. Facts are facts, those should be known when making a decision, especially one that involves children. Besides if she was hired without all of the facts present and a similar situation occurs, wouldn't you feel you had not done your full and complete duty. Presumably this is not a popularity contest, so the woman should be aware that her past termination may cause her some trouble. She's the one that was fired, you didn't do it, no reason for you to brush it under the rug.

 

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[regentrude]

But... I happen to know something about this person and something they did at their last position that caused them to be fired. I did see that on her ROE (record of employment) that it said fired, but doesn't give a reason. She doesn't know that the committee was asked to pull the ROE of applicants (which any potential employer may do if you apply for a job with them).

 

However, I know why she got fired and that, IMO, makes her a rotten candidate for the job.

 

I want to tell the committee, but I don't know if I should, or if maybe my dislike of the person is clouding my judgment. So.... Knowing that the reason for a firing could be requested, would you tell the committee what you know, or tell the committee that since there is a firing, that the reason should be requested, or would you say nothing... or... ???? What would you do?

 

 

Ethically, I would feel obliged to share my information with the committee, if the reason for her firing is pertinent to her character and suitability for the position, and if you have your information from a credible source and not a rumor. You are hiring her to be responsible for children, and in that case, I would put more stringent constraints on personal integrity than I might for other jobs.

 

The others have the opportunity to form their own opinion about the person, irrespective of YOUR personal like or dislike, and can vote accordingly. At the least, I would ask the candidate why she was fired when you interview her and see if she is forthcoming with the truth.

[zoobie]

Who exactly is responsible for pulling the applicants' ROEs? How are interviews being conducted? Who is responsible for calling previous employers?

 

Can you ask her about her ROE in the interview? Something like, "You state you were fired from Company X. Tell us what you learned from that experience and what you have done or will do to prevent a similar situation from arising."

[MooCow]

Of course, I worked in HR in the US before staying home with dds and I was never allowed to give out any information other than dates of hire and termination. Is it the same in Canada?

 

 

This. I know here you can't ask anything except the above and is the person eligible for re-hire.

 

Of course, their are ways to get around it.

 

It's a tough situation to be in.

[Audrey]

If this helps... in answer to a few of the questions:

 

I am the one who was elected to pull the ROEs of all applicants and to contact references and previous employers if the candidates make it through the first round of interviews. Someone up thread said I should be sure to point it out. I'm definitely pointing out the firing. There is another ROE that is pretty... unusual, and I'm going to make sure they notice that, too.

 

I know the reason she was fired from the previous employer because I was involved in a peripherally supervisory capacity to the organization who fired her. I have read all the documentation.

 

I don't want to post the reason, but it was a direct violation of policy. The organzation went through all the proper documentation, including verbal and written warnings, so it was not as if it was a one-time thing, but rather a repeated issue.

[MomatHWTK]

Are you allowed to disclose what you know or is there a confidentiality issue with the other organization?

[Parrothead]

If the reason for the firing ad to do with something to with endangering kids it needs to be put before the committee. I'd say the same if the firing was related to illegal activities.

[Audrey]

Are you allowed to disclose what you know or is there a confidentiality issue with the other organization?

 

Good question. I'm not entirely sure about that. The documents I saw would go in a file that an employer could access. I would err on the side of assuming there is a confidentiality issue. But, to be safe, I'm going to have to check on that before the first round of interviews because I just know that if/when she is asked about it, if she lies, I don't know if I will be able to contain myself. On the other hand, if I'm told I can't disclose, then I won't. Period.

[Audrey]

Well policy... What kind of policy? Like, the policy is you come dressed XYZ or you aren't late? Or policy like you did something that can endanger someone's life? I suspect it isn't a huge life threatening deal because if it were you wouldn't need to think about it.

 

I dunno. It does kind of feel like you are heavily weighing on the fact you just don't like her more than it's a really solid reason for not hiring her.

 

 

The policy has to do with discipline. So, no... not life threatening, but not just being late either.

 

ETA: And, yeah.... I have admitted that my feelings about the person are really colouring my perception of this issue. I need perspective. Thank you for being honest with yours.

[Little Nyssa]

Let me bring it up from another side-- what if she were a good friend of yours? Would you be tempted to cover up what you knew so that she could get hired? Would you let her ROE go unlooked-at? I don't think you would. I think you are a pretty straight shooter, Audrey. I think you would be honest regardless, because you'd be thinking of what's best for the children in the daycare, even though you'd regret it for your friend's sake. I'm sure you can diplomatically find a way to make sure the ROE gets examined and that the information gets to the right people. So I don't think your dislike of her personally has to cloud the issue.

[chiguirre]

Even if there are confidentiality issues, you read her files legitimately and know what's in them. You can't keep information confidential from yourself. If she lies, I would simply state that in your capacity as xxxxxx you have read her employment file with organization xxxxxx and watch the fireworks. I think you can also state that her story doesn't agree with what you know from your previous duties.

 

If she was reapplying to the place she worked before, they could use the info in their own files. Since you have that information from your job duties, you don't have to pretend to "unknow" it for this committee. If it were gossip, that would be different.

[Mrs Mungo]

I had a friend recommended for a volunteer position, and I strongly suggested that they not give her that particular volunteer job because of things I know as her friend. Turned out, she didn't want that job anyway, so all was well.

 

But, that is sort of how I see it. If she was your friend, would the reason for her getting fired be enough to make you not recommend her for this job? If yes, then you should disclose the information that you can.

[Lisa R.]

Since this position involves child care, taking care of those who can't advocate for themselves, extra caution is needed. I wouldn't want someone taking care of my kids I'd they'd had employment issues in the past.

 

However, you're in a sticky situation since this person is a peer of yours, and you seem to have other reasons to dislike her. If you share too much with your committee, it could easily come off that you hold a grudge. I say this knowing your concerns are legitimate.

 

Could you take a different approach and find a better, more qualified applicant and encourage your group to consider her? "We want the best person for this job, even if it means not hiring one of our friends." This way you bypass having to feel like you're critiquing your fellow committee member.

 

 

[Unicorn.]

 

 

ETA: updated in post #26 and requoted below----

If this helps... in answer to a few of the questions posed in the thread:

 

I am the one who was elected to pull the ROEs of all applicants and to contact references and previous employers if the candidates make it through the first round of interviews. Someone up thread said I should be sure to point it out. I'm definitely pointing out the firing. There is another ROE that is pretty... unusual, and I'm going to make sure they notice that, too.

 

I know the reason she was fired from the previous employer because I was involved in a peripherally supervisory capacity to the organization who fired her. I have read all the documentation.

 

I don't want to post the reason, but it was a direct violation of policy. The organzation went through all the proper documentation, including verbal and written warnings, so it was not as if it was a one-time thing, but rather a repeated issue.

 

 

Good question. I'm not entirely sure about that. The documents I saw would go in a file that an employer could access. I would err on the side of assuming there is a confidentiality issue. But, to be safe, I'm going to have to check on that before the first round of interviews because I just know that if/when she is asked about it, if she lies, I don't know if I will be able to contain myself. On the other hand, if I'm told I can't disclose, then I won't. Period.

Given the above information, if it is legal for you to disclose I would.... if, if, if....see next quoted posts

 

I had a friend recommended for a volunteer position, and I strongly suggested that they not give her that particular volunteer job because of things I know as her friend. Turned out, she didn't want that job anyway, so all was well.

 

But, that is sort of how I see it. If she was your friend, would the reason for her getting fired be enough to make you not recommend her for this job? If yes, then you should disclose the information that you can.

Let me bring it up from another side-- what if she were a good friend of yours? Would you be tempted to cover up what you knew so that she could get hired? Would you let her ROE go unlooked-at? I don't think you would. I think you are a pretty straight shooter, Audrey. I think you would be honest regardless, because you'd be thinking of what's best for the children in the daycare, even though you'd regret it for your friend's sake. I'm sure you can diplomatically find a way to make sure the ROE gets examined and that the information gets to the right people. So I don't think your dislike of her personally has to cloud the issue.

 

continuing with the if's... If it is something that will affect this job position, then I say you need to disclose it. If you answered no to the two above posts, then your judgement is being clouded by the fact that you don't like her. But if she were your friend, and you would still feel the need to disclose the info, then you need to if legally possible.. hth

[SKL]

Very sticky situation indeed. Definitely bring it up and put her on the spot (ask her why she was fired). See how she responds and perhaps that will be enough to influence the vote as you think it should.

 

It isn't clear to me whether you believe this past mark on her slate is relevant to the job she's applying for. You say a discipline issue that is worse than just being late. I am trying to guess - perhaps a lot of absences - then that is a problem. Messing around with a male employee? Maybe not so much. Stealing from the till? Disqualified. Cussing? Disqualified. Bad-mouthing the employer? Depends. Lying? Too risky - she'd lie about anything, and that could be a big problem.

 

If it is something that risks hurting the kids or the assets of the employer, I'd disclose it to the extent it is legal to do so.

[somo_chickenlady]

If you can disclose the information, I think you should. I work in childcare, and I once worked for a TERRIBLE director that I disliked so much that I quit. I still had friends that worked there, and found out that she got fired b/c a bunch of money went missing, but they couldn't prove she took it. Fast forward a couple years and I am working at another center, and the director resigns. They end up hiring terrible director. If this tells you anything, I immediately started bawling when I found out, and I don't cry easily. I ended up quitting again b/c of her (and that was probably the best, most favorite job I have ever had) and less than 6 months later she ended up embbezzling a TON of money from the center and they had to shut down. I tried to warn them, but they wouldn't listen.

 

I say if she was fired, it was probably for good reason and personally wouldn't hire her, especially if what she was fired for is as serious as you make it seem.