AlmiraGulch Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 If we have, ignore and pardon this post. I don't remember seeing it, and I did a search and couldn't find anything. I definitely have my own opinions about this, but I'm interested in yours. Discuss. German home-school parents appeal asylum ruling NASHVILLE, Tenn. — A couple who fled Germany with their five children over fears they would lose custody for not sending them to school has asked a federal appeals court to grant them asylum in the U.S. Uwe and Hannelore Romeike (roh-MEYE-kee) claim in court documents that German schools are anti-Christian and the couple believe God wants them to teach their children at home. Germany's government requires students to attend a state-approved school, and parents who violate the law can face fines, jail and possible custody loss. The 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decided this week to hear oral arguments in April. The court will hear two competing pictures of the parents. In the view of the Home School Legal Defense Association, which represents the parents, the Romeikes have been persecuted by the German government for exercising their right to direct their children's education, like many parents do in the U.S. The U.S. government, however, believes the Romeikes' case does not rise to the level of persecution, and says they are not being singled out for their religious beliefs. What the Romeikes did and what happened to them is not in dispute. According to court documents, the Romeikes took their three oldest children out of school in September 2006 because they felt the school was turning the children against the family's Christian values. After a series of visits and letters by officials, police came to the house the next month and drove the children to school. Hannelore Romeike went to the school at recess and took them back home. Police came three days later, but members of the family's home schooling support group were there protesting and police left. Next the government began issuing fines, which eventually totaled about 7,000 euros, or more than $9,000. The Romeikes decided to leave the country after Germany's highest appellate court ruled in November 2007 in an unrelated case that, in severe situations, social services officials could remove children from their parents. In 2008, they moved from Bissingen an der Teck in the state of Baden-Wuerttemberg to Morristown in eastern Tennessee, and applied for asylum. The U.S. government said in court documents the Romeikes did not belong to any particular Christian denomination and described the parents' objections to the government-approved schools as vague. For instance, Uwe Romeike claimed a textbook "featured a story suggesting that `the devil can help you if you ask the devil, but God would not help you,'" the government said. But he could not recall the title of the story or its author. Romeike also claimed the schools taught witchcraft based on a game played by classmates of his wife when she was in the seventh grade "that involved pushing chairs and glasses around, and dangling a pendulum." The family initially was granted asylum by U.S. Immigration Judge Lawrence Burman in Memphis in 2010. He concluded that "the (German) government is attempting to enforce this Nazi-era law against people that it purely seems to detest because of their desire to keep their children out of school." On appeal, the Board of Immigration Appeals found Burman's assertion to be erroneous, and stated the record did not support the "inflammatory suggestion that it is a Nazi-era law." The parents appealed to the 6th Circuit, which agreed to hear oral arguments April 23. The Home School Legal Defense Association hopes to use the case to pressure Germany to change the way it treats home-school families, Director of International Relations Michael Donnelly said. "It's a democracy. They respect human rights," he said of Germany. "But in this area it's frightening how they treat people who want to do something very simple. There are 2 million children home-schooled in the U.S. ... This is not a threat to the German state, but they are treating it that way, and it's wrong." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooCow Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Funny, I was just reading about this a few mins. ago. I am interested in other opinions as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Why on earth are they seeking asylum in the US? If they hold German passports, they can freely move to the UK where hsing is legal. It sounds like a publicity stunt! ETA: That devil story sounds like Faust. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect German school kids to read Goethe, just saying... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Exactly. There is no reason to seek asylum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Just an example of HSLDA getting involved where they shouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Marmalade Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Someone I know shared this on FB last week, all alarmed and worried about our HS'ing freedoms here in America. The ability to homeschool or not is hardly what I would call "asylum worthy". I just think of people in those countries who truly do need to seek asylum because their lives are actually in danger because of some form of persecution. I don't think not being allowed to homeschool fits in the same category. Why seek asylum? Move to a homeschool friendly country if it's THAT important to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Why on earth are they seeking asylum in the US? If they hold German passports, they can freely move to the UK where hsing is legal. It sounds like a publicity stunt! Yes - they are welcome here. They won't even have to register as home educators if their children have never been to school in the UK. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Hasn't this happened before and a family wound up moving from Germany to Canada because of homeschooling? These was a few years ago and Canada granted them asylum. I think they were Mennonites or something something akin to that. They testified that the school system really pushed morals and ideas very antithetical to their Christian beliefs. I wonder if they knew someone in Tennessee and that's why they chose to move there? I mean don't you need a job or something? How can you just pick up and move your whole family to another country without some kind of security of a job or at least having friends/family who will help? The article to me seemed not so well written, like it was trying to make the family's argument look ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 The Home School Legal Defense Association hopes to use the case to pressure Germany to change the way it treats home-school families, Director of International Relations Michael Donnelly said. Sounds to me like it's about publicity and politics. I think it's wrong to use asylum as an attempt to change the laws of another country, especially one that isn't committing "crimes against humanity". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Yes - they are welcome here. They won't even have to register as home educators if their children have never been to school in the UK. Laura Would the adults be able to be employed in the UK? I was wondering if that is part of the problem. Moving to the UK just to home school would be fine if you were independently wealthy but otherwise you'd need a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I think HSLDA should stay out of German politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I am not fan of HSLDA but I am a little shocked at the lack of solidarity and sympathy expressed among homeschoolers here. Maybe it is because there is kind of a emotional reaction to HSLDA? I can see that. Maybe we need some kind of international homeschooling rights group that advocates for homeschooling everywhere. I am sorry for people who do not have this basic choice that I have enjoyed for the last 16 years. I always admired those who went before us and took such risks to make homeschooling legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 From what I'm reading online, I do not believe that asylum should have been granted. There are European countries the immigration quotas of which might have allowed this family to enter and stay. The unwarranted interference of the HSLDA (a group that I do not support) resulted in the current dangers pending from Eric Holder's assertion (straight out of the NEA myopia) that parents do not possess the right to homeschool their own children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I am not fan of HSLDA but I am a little shocked at the lack of solidarity and sympathy expressed among homeschoolers here. Maybe it is because there is kind of a emotional reaction to HSLDA? I can see that. Maybe we need some kind of international homeschooling rights group that advocates for homeschooling everywhere. I am sorry for people who do not have this basic choice that I have enjoyed for the last 16 years. I always admired those who went before us and took such risks to make homeschooling legal. I believe they should be working within Germany to change German laws. I do agree that part of my issue with this case is HSLDA inserting themselves into the situation and dragging this into US courts. I also feel bad for Germans who are trying to change their laws and have to also deal with the particular strain of nuttiness HSLDA often brings along. It is not helping the cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 It has nothing to do with a lack of sympathy for the family. It also has nothing to do with ire against HSLDA. It has to do with these people having other options, but HSLDA is using them as political pawns. Yes, you should have sympathy for the family on that count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Someone I know shared this on FB last week, all alarmed and worried about our HS'ing freedoms here in America. The ability to homeschool or not is hardly what I would call "asylum worthy". I just think of people in those countries who truly do need to seek asylum because their lives are actually in danger because of some form of persecution. I don't think not being allowed to homeschool fits in the same category. Why seek asylum? Move to a homeschool friendly country if it's THAT important to you. I completely disagree. I don't see the state taking custody of my children for the majority of their waking hours AND dictating what they must be taught as any less terrible than having one's life in danger. Also, move to a homeschooling friendly country is exactly what these people are trying to do. Further, there are 10+ million illegal immigrants in the US that the administration is deliberately not pursuing. One can infer easily that by pursuing this ONE family, the administration is making some kind of point. It seems that point is against homeschooling. If government position is that homeschooling is not a fundamental right.....that affects us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I'm concerned about possible repercussions for US homeschoolers. I'm also very confused why they didn't just move to a country that allows homeschooling and would accept their passport without needing to seek asylum. I think it's a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 In all the many articles I have read about this case, not once did I see a mention of the possibility of the family moving to the UK or to other hs friendly European countries. This is the first I've heard that they might have had such an option. I call that biased journalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I completely disagree. I don't see the state taking custody of my children for the majority of their waking hours AND dictating what they must be taught as any less terrible than having one's life in danger. Also, move to a homeschooling friendly country is exactly what these people are trying to do. Further, there are 10+ million illegal immigrants in the US that the administration is deliberately not pursuing. One can infer easily that by pursuing this ONE family, the administration is making some kind of point. It seems that point is against homeschooling. If government position is that homeschooling is not a fundamental right.....that affects us all. The government is not pursuing them. The family is pursuing asylum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Also, move to a homeschooling friendly country is exactly what these people are trying to do. Well, kind of...They actually chose a country that is difficult for them to immigrate to at this time and are trying to enter via the asylum process which has certain standards for it to apply. Further, there are 10+ million illegal immigrants in the US that the administration is deliberately not pursuing. One can infer easily that by pursuing this ONE family, the administration is making some kind of point. It seems that point is against homeschooling. If government position is that homeschooling is not a fundamental right.....that affects us all. If you infer that then you would be wrong. The family has APPLIED for asylum. They have not been pursued or targeted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I think HSLDA should stay out of German politics. That's not really possible. Because the courts in the US are increasingly using the laws of other nations to interpret our laws, a developed country that legislates persecution against a homeschool family (and, IMO, crippling fines and taking people's kids for homeschooling IS persecution) presents a danger to the rights of homeschoolers in this country. It is entirely forseeable that a judge could take a homeschool case and use Germanfamily v Germangov as part of their justification to say that parents do not have the right to homeschool their children. If you want groups like HSLDA to stay out of German politics, you need to lobby your representatives to put better judicial appointees in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 When people facing sexual and physical assault and imprisonment, who have seen family members killed, are scrutinized and some times sent home, asking for asylum because schooling issues starts to seem a stretch doesn't it? More so when they have German passports that allow movement to other EU countries, some of which would be able to welcome the hem as immigrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Sounds to me like it's about publicity and politics. I think it's wrong to use asylum as an attempt to change the laws of another country, especially one that isn't committing "crimes against humanity". This was my impression exactly! I wanted to see if anyone else read the story the same way, or if I was just off my rocker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 If you infer that then you would be wrong. The family has APPLIED for asylum. They have not been pursued or targeted. This family applied for and WAS GRANTED asylum. The administration could have ignored that. Do you think they review every asylum granting to see if they agree with the judge? Of course not. They are being targeted because it's a homeschool rights case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I believe they should be working within Germany to change German laws. I do agree that part of my issue with this case is HSLDA inserting themselves into the situation and dragging this into US courts. I also feel bad for Germans who are trying to change their laws and have to also deal with the particular strain of nuttiness HSLDA often brings along. It is not helping the cause. I agree completely. I just do not feel that the interference was appropriate. Certainly, they can choose to move and while I realize that they need to find employment so it isn't necessarily easy, the reality is that if homeschooling is that important to them, then they can take the necessary steps to live some where else. This isn't a human rights issue and for those working within in Germany to foster a climate in which homeschooling could become acceptable, this is a very large step backward. I sure would hate to see the criteria for gaining asylum to become watered down. It doesn't bode well at all for US foreign relations. Maybe there are facts of the case that have not been made public. Were they physically threatened, beaten, deprived of basic human rights such as shelter, food, or due process, etc. for homeschooling? I suppose anything is possible, but you'd think that this wouldn't have gone over so well with other European countries. Something doesn't add up. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Isn't this the same case we were discussing on the old boards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I call that biased journalism. Journalism? I think you meant HSLDA propaganda. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlmiraGulch Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 I am not fan of HSLDA but I am a little shocked at the lack of solidarity and sympathy expressed among homeschoolers here. Maybe it is because there is kind of a emotional reaction to HSLDA? I can see that. Maybe we need some kind of international homeschooling rights group that advocates for homeschooling everywhere. I am sorry for people who do not have this basic choice that I have enjoyed for the last 16 years. I always admired those who went before us and took such risks to make homeschooling legal. I certainly feel for them. No doubt about that. From the way the story is written, though, it appears as if this family is being mislead and misguided and used as a pawn in a bigger fight. The story makes them sound like idiots. And while I don't know the family, of course, and may not agree with their reasoning, it seems to me that if the story were written differently they could have a better shot at.....something. Asylum? I don't know. I just don't think it's appropriate in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Would the adults be able to be employed in the UK? I was wondering if that is part of the problem. Moving to the UK just to home school would be fine if you were independently wealthy but otherwise you'd need a job. They are free to live — and work — in any EU country they choose. Homeschooling is legal in many European countries, including Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, parts of Switzerland, and the UK. Fleeing to the US and demanding "asylum" because homeschooling is illegal in Germany is ridiculous. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 This family applied for and WAS GRANTED asylum. The administration could have ignored that. Do you think they review every asylum granting to see if they agree with the judge? Of course not. They are being targeted because it's a homeschool rights case. Or maybe the administration and the immigration courts don't want to slap an ally nation, where we have military bases and military hospital resources, square in the face? There are US laws I don't care for at all. Should I be able to get asylum in Europe for that? How would the US swallow that? Besides if there were the political intent to outright end homeschooling you'd see it in the our legislative process, not judicial rulings drawing from foreign laws. If you think a huge number of judges are relying on German law when they make rulings, you are not clear on our judicial system. Many homeschoolers voted for this administration after all. I don't buy that my government is trying to stop me from homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Journalism? I think you meant HSLDA propaganda. :) No, I also refer to the Washington Post (or was it the Times?) opinion piece, and blog posts in libertarian political circles online. Lots of people beyond HSLDA-flavored hs'ers are talking about this, but nobody is aware, or else they are deliberately failing to mention, that other legal options already exist for this family without United States interference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 That's not really possible. Because the courts in the US are increasingly using the laws of other nations to interpret our laws, a developed country that legislates persecution against a homeschool family (and, IMO, crippling fines and taking people's kids for homeschooling IS persecution) presents a danger to the rights of homeschoolers in this country. It is entirely forseeable that a judge could take a homeschool case and use Germanfamily v Germangov as part of their justification to say that parents do not have the right to homeschool their children. No, that really isn't likely. Please consider that US laws protecting homeschooling were developed while German law still banned it. If you want groups like HSLDA to stay out of German politics, you need to lobby your representatives to put better judicial appointees in place. The two are not remotely connected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 When people facing sexual and physical assault and imprisonment, who have seen family members killed, are scrutinized and some times sent home, asking for asylum because schooling issues starts to seem a stretch doesn't it? More so when they have German passports that allow movement to other EU countries, some of which would be able to welcome the hem as immigrants. :iagree: There are millions of people in distress resulting from political prosecution, starvation, war. U.S. laws are written in a way to allow some of these people without any choice facing physical danger (torture and death) to seek safe harbor in this country. Allowing the lack of homeschooling law as a cetegory to seek polical asylum will swing this door too wide and will ultimately wind up hurting those in true need. I think in a democratic country where you are allowed to voice opinions, campaigh for change and raise awareness for issues, those seeking change should do so using legal means available. I don't think making a spectacle helps their case especially considering they have option to live in other EU counties. Having said that, I believe parents should have a right to educate their own children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 No, I also refer to the Washington Post (or was it the Times?) opinion piece, and blog posts in libertarian political circles online. Lots of people beyond HSLDA-flavored hs'ers are talking about this, but nobody is aware, or else they are deliberately failing to mention, that other legal options already exist for this family without United States interference. I would assume many of those are writing from points made or originally made in HSDLA press releases. The best press coverage is the stuff you get others to write for you without smacking your name on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 This family applied for and WAS GRANTED asylum. The administration could have ignored that. Do you think they review every asylum granting to see if they agree with the judge? Of course not. They are being targeted because it's a homeschool rights case. Asylum was granted incorrectly in this case. Appealing was the appropriate step as allowing that decision to stand sets a legal precedent for asylum that is much too broad. I am getting the feeling you do not understand how this process really works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Or maybe the administration and the immigration courts don't want to slap an ally nation, where we have military bases and military hospital resources, square in the face? There are US laws I don't care for at all. Should I be able to get asylum in Europe for that? How would the US swallow that? Yes, it's a toughie. We have to be realistic. We have homeschool friendly laws on the books in most states because the American people in America fought for them and we did it without interference from other nations. It was an American issue, not an international human rights issue. People wanted change, some very brave families homeschooled outside the lines, got caught, went to court, and won. This is the right method of working for change within the confines of our US Constitution. It would not have been appropriate to leave the country and ask for asylum elsewhere. It would have been appropriate for those families to choose to emigrate to a homeschool friendly country under regular immigration laws for that nation if they didn't want to stay and work for change. I don't agree with a number of laws here. But, none of these laws would cause me or my family to be starved, tortured, imprisoned indefinitely, denied due process, or murdered. Therefore, it would be inappropriate to ask for asylum in another nation. The appropriate action is to work to change the system through legal representation, petitions, gaining the ear of representatives and senators, writing editorials, putting information on the web, etc. We have a myriad of options for legally changing our system. The other point I'd like to make is that some of the best changes made are the changes from within. Even if international pressure somehow forced Germany to relent, it would not change the society. Homeschooling acceptance here took a while but, because the change came at local levels, it's become fairly widely accepted. Our kids can go to Vo-Tech, University, Art Academy, Chef and Pastry School, join 4-H, Scouts, head to Space Camp, whatever because the culture wasn't forced to change by outsiders. Forcing homeschooling on Germany through exterior pressure would not produce a society that is going to be accepting of these kids. It's not going to create a system in which if the parents must end their homeschooling and re-enroll their child, the child will be able to go back into the system. It doesn't create universities and training schools that will accept homeschool graduates. All it does is ram the change down their throats. Local hamlets, the mayor, the university president, the tech school instructor, the city, the capitol, have to be convinced that this is a legitimate and good option. That's how it happened here. That's why we enjoy the freedom we do and our kids find acceptance, employment, and post-high school training options. Had it been forced on us by say, the U.N., this would have been a very unhappy government, unhappy people, unhappy culture and not a homeschool friendly one. I want for German citizens to have the freedom I have. However, I want them to gain it in the right way so that they can truly enjoy it and so their country isn't scarred by the fight to get it or their relationships with other countries deeply wounded in the process. It's easy to focus on the single issue at hand without seeing it in a context of the larger relational issue. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 They are free to live — and work — in any EU country they choose. Homeschooling is legal in many European countries, including Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, parts of Switzerland, and the UK. Fleeing to the US and demanding "asylum" because homeschooling is illegal in Germany is ridiculous. Jackie Not to mention that the religious angle doesn't hold water because there are private Christian schools in Germany. And in my opinion, "Can't afford tuition for the private school I want my kids to go to" isn't a valid reason to flee to another country and seek asylum. I agree with everyone else, that this is a publicity stunt and this family is being used and made to look ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 deprived of basic human rights I guess this is where I fundamentally disagree with people. I believe the ability to raise one's children in the way that one deems fit IS a basic human right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I guess this is where I fundamentally disagree with people. I believe the ability to raise one's children in the way that one deems fit IS a basic human right. But where do you draw the line? Should parents that believe in whipping their children with chains or whips to instill discipline be allowed to do so? Should they be allowed to give their children drugs to expand their consciousness or whatever? Should a mother be allowed to kill her children because she thinks they'll be better off in heaven? The government has to draw a line somewhere to keep children safe. We can't and shouldn't be able to do whatever we want to our children without any consequence. Granted, Germany has narrower ideas about what a child needs to be safe than we do, but I still don't see that this family's basic human rights have been violated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Would the adults be able to be employed in the UK? I was wondering if that is part of the problem. Moving to the UK just to home school would be fine if you were independently wealthy but otherwise you'd need a job. Any EU citizen has the right to work in any other EU country. Why would they be more likely to find work in the US? Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I guess this is where I fundamentally disagree with people. I believe the ability to raise one's children in the way that one deems fit IS a basic human right. They are absolutely free to move to the UK, work here and home educate freely - their German passports makes this both legal and easy. They need no visas, no permits, nothing. They just get on a train and come to the UK. Why make a fuss and ask for asylum in the US? Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I have several problems with this. 1. Asking for asylum is ridiculous. As EU citizens, they can freely move to another European country where homeschooling is legal. 2. A US organization meddling with German laws. Germany happens to be a democracy just like the US, law makers are elected by the people, and make laws based on a consensus of the people. An overwhelming majority of Germans feels that school attendance should be mandatory. Hence the law. It is not the place of an American organization to tell the German people what laws they can have or not have. I bet the Americans would not appreciate some German club to tell them that a particular US law is wrong and to encourage US citizens to break the law. 3. The damage this is doing to the movement that tries to legalize homeschooling in Germany. The German families that are willing to break the law and go public fall into two extremes: religious fundamentalists who want to shield their children from teachings about human reproduction, from PE, from literature about witches - and extreme unschoolers who do not believe in any structured schooling. Those poster families are exactly what the German majority fears homeschoolers are, and the public can not relate to either side. What the movement desperately needs are homeschoolers that are more in the middle of the spectrum. the families who enjoy the publicity now just cement every stereotype that causes homeschooling to be illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I guess this is where I fundamentally disagree with people. I believe the ability to raise one's children in the way that one deems fit IS a basic human right. As others have said, the family can easily move to another European country and homeschool legally. But just to show that there are very different views of what constitutes basic human rights: in Germany, it is considered a basic human right to live free of violence. Physical punishment of children is against the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithr Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 But where do you draw the line? Should parents that believe in whipping their children with chains or whips to instill discipline be allowed to do so? Should they be allowed to give their children drugs to expand their consciousness or whatever? Should a mother be allowed to kill her children because she thinks they'll be better off in heaven? The government has to draw a line somewhere to keep children safe. We can't and shouldn't be able to do whatever we want to our children without any consequence. Granted, Germany has narrower ideas about what a child needs to be safe than we do, but I still don't see that this family's basic human rights have been violated. This is interesting. I am just curious. Why do you have the right to homeschool your children? I think you are being a little unfair in your response. I think the other poster has the unspoken assumption that the right to raise one's children as the parents deem right means within reason. This type of thinking, the where do we draw the line thinking or slippery slope fallacy, is the same that was used by opponents in the beginning of homeschooling here in this country. Or at least one of the reasons given. Parents had children taken away because they couldn't be trusted. They asked the same question. So why do you have the right to homeschool, if it really isn't an important right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 . Granted, Germany has narrower ideas about what a child needs to be safe than we do Germany isn't claiming that children need to be in school to be safe. This isn't a safety issue. And conflating different ways to raise and educate one's children with child abuse and murder. :svengo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I guess this is where I fundamentally disagree with people. I believe the ability to raise one's children in the way that one deems fit IS a basic human right. They DO have choices. Have you ever lived in Europe? Many of us have. I knew *tons* of ex-pats who sent their kids to private schools in Germany. As has been stated, they could move to the UK or France. Many people who homeschool in Europe do so under an "umbrella school," just like people in stricter states in the US. Are people in Pennsylvania going to ask for asylum in Texas because PA has more rules? It's not about homeschool. It's about global politics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Granted, Germany has narrower ideas about what a child needs to be safe than we do Huh? Absolutely not. Germany is much less restrictive with respect to "safety" - there are many things families can legally do in Germany that, in the US, would get CPS called: children can stay home alone, walk to school as first graders, use public transit across town in 4th grade, be unsupervised during school recess... Please do not make it seem as if Germany is compulsively imposing restrictions on families for the sake of "safety" - the contrary is true. The mandatory schooling has nothing to do with safety. The society considers compulsory school attendance a measure for promoting cultural understanding and assimilation. People worry about families who want to isolate their children from the mainstream society and consider this undesirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Huh? Absolutely not. Germany is much less restrictive with respect to "safety" - there are many things families can legally do in Germany that, in the US, would get CPS called: children can stay home alone, walk to school as first graders, use public transit across town in 4th grade, be unsupervised during school recess... Please do not make it seem as if Germany is compulsively imposing restrictions on families for the sake of "safety" - the contrary is true. I totally agree. You see *little* kids in Germany riding their bikes downtown to the market or on the train alone. The mandatory schooling has nothing to do with safety. The society considers compulsory school attendance a measure for promoting cultural understanding and assimilation. People worry about families who want to isolate their children from the mainstream society and consider this undesirable. A lot of which has to do with the issues Germany has with large groups of immigrants. Germany considers it highly desirable for those people to be integrated into German society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 3. The damage this is doing to the movement that tries to legalize homeschooling in Germany. The German families that are willing to break the law and go public fall into two extremes: religious fundamentalists who want to shield their children from teachings about human reproduction, from PE, from literature about witches - and extreme unschoolers who do not believe in any structured schooling. Those poster families are exactly what the German majority fears homeschoolers are, and the public can not relate to either side. What the movement desperately needs are homeschoolers that are more in the middle of the spectrum. the families who enjoy the publicity now just cement every stereotype that causes homeschooling to be illegal. I completely disagree with this assumption. It was exactly these two groups of people who changed things in the US for homeschoolers. We wouldn't HAVE a spectrum without the religious fundamentalists and unschoolers who insisted on their basic rights as parents. It's always the outliers that change things. You don't get a middle ground without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I completely disagree with this assumption. It was exactly these two groups of people who changed things in the US for homeschoolers. We wouldn't HAVE a spectrum without the religious fundamentalists and unschoolers who insisted on their basic rights as parents. It's always the outliers that change things. You don't get a middle ground without them. You're telling Regentrude, who is German, that you know better than she does the best way to change things in Germany? :confused1: You know, in a lot of other countries (in fact, I'd say in most European countries), religious fundamentalists are considered rather "out there" and not people to be admired or even accommodated. Having religious fundamentalists championing homeschooling is more likely to make the rest of the population think that the anti-homeschooling laws are a very good thing. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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