Have we talked about this? German Homeschooling Family Seeks Asylum in US

[regentrude]

Parents should be able to indoctrinate their children in any ideas they want, without the rest

of society thinking it is dangerous or neglectful (as long as they are not being hurt

or planning to hurt others). ..

 

I think it's OK for homeschoolers to have religious views different from mainstream religious convictions. Why not? Your life is your own, as long as you are not hurting the children

or hurting other people.

 

 

This is exactly the core of the problem. The general consensus in Germany is that children have rights, too, and one of these

rights is to be exposed to views differing form their parents' views, and that isolating children for the purpose of shielding them from

the broad spectrum of other views does hurt the child.

 

But I am getting distracted. I think parents over the whole world should be free

to educate their children as they see fit, and teach them whatever religion they want,

without any government interference or regulation. (Insert usual physical abuse disclaimers here.)

 

Parents in Germany are free to teach their children any religion they please.

What they are not free to do is, however, to raise them in an atmosphere of isolation that prevents the children

from being exposed to views that are not identical to their parents'.

 

It is a very difficult question to decide what "hurts" or "harms" a child.

Some people believe spanking does not hurt a child; some countries have outlawed any form of physical punishment.

Some people believe raising a child to be indoctrinated by a sect is fine; some consider this brainwashing and child abuse.

[FaithManor]

 

 

 

I still think the US should grant them asylum.

 

 

I do understand this. I'm not uncompassionate about their plight. But, should Americans be willing to live with the consequence that since 56,000 people applied for asylum last year and only 24,000 petitions were granted due to our immigration limits, that another family will be denied and could easily be deported directly to their own executions?

 

That's the deal. We deport people every day who will face something a million times worse than having to enroll their child in the Christian school down the street...remember, they do not have to enroll them in a public institution. I just cannot wrap my brain around being willing to take a spot from a Syrian family, or a Burmese family, or an Ethiopian family, or.....my heart would break. Unless our immigration asylum limits are raised, this is a very real situation. Maybe our limits should be raised, but legislation takes time and meanwhile, this family occupies a spot that is desperately needed by families facing, far, far, worse. Many, many people have legitimate cause to seek asylum, many will be sent home anyway. These are indeed, very precious, life-giving spots. I am glad I'm not the DHS, Department of Justice, INS, or Immigration court that has to decide who lives and who potentially doesn't.

 

Faith

[Corraleno]

I am also curious to know how they can "take children out of other countries if both custodial parents reside there legally , unless there is a custodial dispute and one parent involves the authorities.

 

Yes, I'm curious about this, too. I'm trying to figure out the mechanism by which Germany would be able to "take children" out of France or the UK, unless there were already existing warrants or criminal charges against the parents while they were still living in Germany. And if the parents were already in trouble with the German authorities before they left, then that's NOT a case of quietly moving to another EU country without first causing trouble in Germany.

 

Jackie

[FaithManor]

Yes, I'm curious about this, too. I'm trying to figure out the mechanism by which Germany would be able to "take children" out of France or the UK, unless there were already existing warrants or criminal charges against the parents while they were still living in Germany. And if the parents were already in trouble with the German authorities before they left, then that's NOT a case of quietly moving to another EU country without first causing trouble in Germany.

 

Jackie

 

I'm curious as well. I don't know anything really about reciprocal "interference with parental custody" laws and what not for the EU, but would assume that EU signatories have some sort of agreement that balances the autonomy of each country and their own laws with honoring the laws of another. These kinds of issues are sometimes rather delicate balancing acts. So, I'd be quite interested in specific cases and the logic of the host country that allowed German authorities to operate on their sovereign soil, or where the host country used it's authority to return the children to Germany. My brain wants specifics.

 

In the US, 99 times out of 100, these kinds of cases are always custody disputes between estranged parents which forces the two states involved to have to decide whose family court laws trump the other...sometimes there is a grey area, sometimes it's pretty straight forward.

 

Faith

[regentrude]

I'm curious as well. I don't know anything really about reciprocal "interference with parental custody" laws and what not for the EU, but would assume that EU signatories have some sort of agreement that balances the autonomy of each country and their own laws with honoring the laws of another. These kinds of issues are sometimes rather delicate balancing acts. So, I'd be quite interested in specific cases and the logic of the host country that allowed German authorities to operate on their sovereign soil, or where the host country used it's authority to return the children to Germany. My brain wants specifics.

 

In the US, 99 times out of 100, these kinds of cases are always custody disputes between estranged parents which forces the two states involved to have to decide whose family court laws trump the other...sometimes there is a grey area, sometimes it's pretty straight forward.

 

Well, actually the case of the Wunderlich family was a very strange one (and I suspect that Joan was referring to this) - and custodial issues were not at play.

They had moved to France, after trying to homeschool in Germany, and did indeed have French authorities come to their home and remove the children. The mother could not recall whether they had shown any documentation. From all the media reports it has not become clear to me how the authorities came about to do that (since homeschooling is legal in France), and whether there was an actual warrant - fact is that the children were returned to the family a few days later.

[LucyStoner]

 

You can add us in if you want. It's still persecution.

 

 

Regardless of what you call it, the "persecution" in this situation does not come with imminent danger of physical loss of life, limb or freedom (incarceration.) Thus is it not sufficient basis for asylum, more so when other asylum seekers are coming from actual repressive and dangerous situations and many face DEATH if they return. No one can argue that death will befall these folks at the hands of the German government. The German government had not even taken action to remove the children and a simple, paperwork free solution existed for them to homeschool legally without crossing an ocean. If this is persecution, there are clearly differing levels of severity considered in the asylum laws here.

[regentrude]

Those who speak/read English reasonably well could come to this website. Just about any possible worldview is represented here, and the great majority (if not all) of the members take education of their children very seriously.

 

Yes, and I love this board - but think about how likely you are to go seek out information

• in a foreign language
  
• about a topic that is not a pressing concern to you
  
• and on which you already have a firm opinion
  

Nobody who is not already actively interested in finding out more about homeschooling is going to go through the trouble.

 

And then there is also the problem with transferring homeschool information from one country to another. My friends in Germany are very willing to accept my reasons for homeschooling because they know how pathetic the US school system is compared to the German one - they all readily believe that what I do is a lot better than sending them to school. But my reasons would be a hard sell if I were in Germany.

 

It really is a very difficult problem for which I have no good solution. All I can say, from my insight into the collective German psyche, is that whatever is being tried currently is making things only worse.

 

ETA: I am convinced that if legal homeschooling in Germany begins, it will be with a very structured system of a mandatory core curriculum with strong oversight and regular testing - simply because that's how Germans are culturally programmed to operate.

[JFSinIL]

Someone I know shared this on FB last week, all alarmed and worried about our HS'ing freedoms here in America.

 

The ability to homeschool or not is hardly what I would call "asylum worthy". I just think of people in those countries who truly do need to seek asylum because their lives are actually in danger because of some form of persecution. I don't think not being allowed to homeschool fits in the same category. Why seek asylum? Move to a homeschool friendly country if it's THAT important to you.

 

 

I agree. Heck, here it even differs from state to state how much oversight the government requires of a homeschooler. Germany has the right to make and enforce its own education laws etc. If you don't like it - move. Just don't come crying for asylum - leave that for the folks who really need it! You want to live here - get a green card and do what you need to make it happen. Or move to another country where you may more easily find a job and still homeschool. But don't beg for asylum.

[Corraleno]

Well, actually the case of the Wunderlich family was a very strange one (and I suspect that Joan was referring to this) - and custodial issues were not at play.

They had moved to France, after trying to homeschool in Germany, and did indeed have French authorities come to their home and remove the children. The mother could not recall whether they had shown any documentation. From all the media reports it has not become clear to me how the authorities came about to do that (since homeschooling is legal in France), and whether there was an actual warrant - fact is that the children were returned to the family a few days later.

Even in this case, though, the family had already been convicted of breaking the law, had been fined, and had been ordered to appear before a child services board, when they fled to France. So this is still not a case where a family simply moved to a homeschool-friendly country before they broke German law. I can't believe there are cases where German authorities somehow hunted down people who had moved to another country and then started legally homeschooling.

 

To me, the Wunderlich case would be similar to an American family who have been convicted of tax evasion, fined, and ordered to appear before the IRS to sort out back tax issues, deciding instead to flee to another country that doesn't have income tax. At that point the key issue isn't whether not paying taxes is legal or illegal in their current residence, the issue is whether they broke the law in their home country before they fled.

 

Jackie

[8circles]

I'm very sympathetic to their situation. I agree with many of the things jhschool has said. But. I don't think they should get asylum. I think they're being played by the HSLDA. I'm not convinced something else isn't going on either. What a mess.

[jhschool]

jh,

 

I cannot follow your idea that everybody should be free to believe anything they want. As a German citizen I am rather sensitive to the idea that everybody should be able to believe anything they want.

 

Why?

[jhschool]

jh,

You work with the assumptions that people are basically good and will use their beliefs in at least some productive manner.

 

Apart from that, even though I homeschool it is not my first choice of education. If you want everybody to feel free to believe anything then you need to also respect the belief b of the majority of the German people that homeschooling is not acceptable.

 

Yes, I believe the large majority of people all over the world are basically good.

I see it every minute of every day. Even in terrible events and crimes, I see people running and helping, serving, fixing...

 

It's OK for the Germans to think that. I have no problem with that at all.

[Laura Corin]

 

Why?

 

I suspect that you need to cast your mind back over 20th century European history.

 

Laura

[LucyStoner]

 

Why?

 

For one, in the US I would be mostly free to display a Nazi flag, publish books denying the holocaust or pamphlets describing Anne Frank as a fictional character created for propaganda purposes if I were so inclined. That is not something I could legally do in Germany or a number of other European nations. The way that we Americans think of freedom of speech as being essentially absolute barring inciting a riot or panic, is not shared by a number of other fully democratic countries.

[Joan in GE]

When I said leaving quietly, I didn't say that the people had never had trouble. But they weren't having trouble at the time that they were trying to leave.

 

There are various kinds of circumstances - I don't know all of them by any means.....

 

There are cases where the family was homeschooling, got into trouble, put their children back into school and then they decided to move, started selling their things etc, tried to leave the country, and got into trouble sometimes before leaving, sometimes after leaving, etc.

 

Sometimes its impossible for them to close up everything all at once, so someone in the family has to come back to deal with paperwork etc. This leaves a trail. Families have been caught in the airport if they were coming back at a time when there weren't school holidays in Germany....

 

Some people have trouble due to elderly parents that need care, etc. and have to come back.

 

Once they have officially lost custody of their children during school hours, then I think the German govt sees it as a criminal offense if they want to leave the country....The court can take away the freedom of the family to determine the residence of their children.

 

German social workers have the mantra that children cannot be properly prepared for responsible life in society without school. Doesn't that sound like thought control - except this time by the state? It is the state wanting to regulate indoctrination of the young.

 

How is it that people can't have the freedom to leave their country???? That sounds pretty unreasonable to me. Can you imagine wanting to homeschool, stopping homeschool, then trying to leave the country and get into trouble? What kind of free country is that - that you can't leave the country with your own children?

 

I do not have family names. I was told these stories by German and other European home educators who are long time home educators, have organizations, etc. There was a time when I was trying to track down names and precise stories but then got distracted with other life events. There is more than one family, of that I'm sure.

 

And how on earth are there supposed to be any grass-roots movements if there are no homeschoolers in the country?

 

It seems like the homeschoolers are in trouble if they do and in trouble if they don't with some people on this thread.

 

Who is going to bat for home education if they don't want to home educate themselves? How will they be able to show that it works if they aren't actually home educating in a European country - in Germany per se (Germany doesn't trust the results from the US or any other country for that matter)?

 

I'm surprised at some of the comments from people who are enjoying the freedom of home education which came at great expense for some of the pioneers in the US.

 

Yes, lots of Americans used to be against home education too - there are people who still are. But if people would have just stopped at that - because popular opinion was against it - there wouldn't be many people on this forum today.

 

Joan

[FaithManor]

Sigh... I don't know any other way to say this. No one on this board is saying that these families should NOT be supported. No one is being a hypocrite - "I should be able to homeschool but you shouldn't!" No one is saying that. No one is saying that they do not want the German people to eventually attain the right to homeschool legally.

 

The thread began as an issue of asylum based on homeschooling, period. The article was about an asylum appeal. It was never originally, "Should Germany legalize homeschooling?" That topic is now what is being debated which is detracting from the very real issue at hand, "Should this family be awarded asylum?" The point being made is that not being allowed to homeschool in Germany is a dubious reason to be granted refugee status in the US and given asylum when other families petitioning for the same assistance face, rape, torture, and death at home.

 

That's the issue. Not whether or not Germans should have the same educational freedoms that Americans have. Ideally, I'd LOVE for the whole world to have homeschooling freedom. Pratically, we have immigration laws in the country and facing torture and death trumps facing the prospect of enrolling your child in a public or private school in a first world country, every.single.time. When it doesn't, we should all be screaming because if we are only going to harbor 0.00000137% of the people living in truly horrifying, oppressive regimes, then we better make sure the the people who face the worst, are the ones given those few spots for a chance to live.

 

Yes, some people also see this as a sovereignty issue, or a cultural issue, or an issue of America forcing it's opinions on everyone else (and we do rightly incur a tremendous amount of criticism because we are the world's biggest busybody :) ), but the foremost issue at hand is ASYLUM and it is a grave matter. Literally and figuratively. However, that point has a tendancy to get buried when emotions run high about homeschooling rights.

 

Faith

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I do not have family names. I was told these stories by German and other European home educators who are long time home educators, have organizations, etc. There was a time when I was trying to track down names and precise stories but then got distracted with other life events. There is more than one family, of that I'm sure.

 

 

Well, you really can't be sure. You are reporting stories told by you (without names I might add) that could be lacking significant details.

[jhschool]

This is exactly the core of the problem. The general consensus in Germany is that children have rights, too, and one of these

rights is to be exposed to views differing form their parents' views, and that isolating children for the purpose of shielding them from

the broad spectrum of other views does hurt the child.

...

What they are not free to do is, however, to raise them in an atmosphere of isolation that prevents the children

from being exposed to views that are not identical to their parents'.

...

These are actually very interesting questions!

 

Things that flow through my mind: (Note: I am not trying to start bickers; just typing

what rushes through my head)

 

Who should get to decide that what some people do is "isolation" and prevents them

from being exposed to other views? Or simply good parenting? The parents or the government?

(my answer: the parents)

 

Should the government get to decide that every child must be exposed to views that

are different from the parents' (if the parent is not a "standard normal" parent).

(my answer: no)

And if yes, which views would those be? Who gets to pick them?

If so, why does the government get to decide that children should be exposed to the

broad spectrum of views?

 

And who decides that broad spectrum? Who dictates what children

should be taught to think?

 

Should people be allowed to be free and raise their children exactly

how they wish?

(my answer: yes)

If not, why do all children have to be raised uniformly in the way the

government decides?

(I suppose many of us are raising our children in "an atmosphere

of isolation that prevents them from being exposed to other views"--I know I do exactly

that. But I consider that a good thing, not a bad thing. )

 

Other questions: Why is it bad that we be different

from the government norm?

(Given that I am not a robot, or the property of the government, or a slave.)

Can the government force me to let them tell my child what to think?

(my answer: they shouldn't)

Is it unreasonable that I raise my child to think what I believe?

(my answer: no)

If the government decides what children must be exposed to, against

the parents' wishes, is there true freedom?

(my answer: no)

 

When children grow up they can go and expose themselves to any ideas they want.

 

I guess we have identified the basic difference. I believe parents should decide exactly

how to raise their children and decide exactly how to educate them, and what their children

should be taught, religiously or educationally. If the government wants to be in the

business of educating children, that is fine (I happily pay my taxes so others can be

educated--I don't begrudge anyone that). But I believe the government in any country

should have no say at

all in whether children are taught at home, or what they are taught at home. If people

want help educating their children, that's what public schools are there for. But that should be

the parent's decision.

 

My summary: I do not believe in the government mandating uniformity of thought

in all its citizens beginning with them as children.

 

But...this conversation has been fascinating and enlightening. I begin to slowly understand

some things I never understood before.

 

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone in any way, and I am finding this the most

intellectually stimulating conversation of my week. I appreciate all of you finding the time

to discuss these very important topics.

[jhschool]

When I said leaving quietly, I didn't say that the people had never had trouble. But they weren't having trouble at the time that they were trying to leave.

 

There are various kinds of circumstances - I don't know all of them by any means.....

 

There are cases where the family was homeschooling, got into trouble, put their children back into school and then they decided to move, started selling their things etc, tried to leave the country, and got into trouble sometimes before leaving, sometimes after leaving, etc.

 

Sometimes its impossible for them to close up everything all at once, so someone in the family has to come back to deal with paperwork etc. This leaves a trail. Families have been caught in the airport if they were coming back at a time when there weren't school holidays in Germany....

 

Some people have trouble due to elderly parents that need care, etc. and have to come back.

 

Once they have officially lost custody of their children during school hours, then I think the German govt sees it as a criminal offense if they want to leave the country....The court can take away the freedom of the family to determine the residence of their children.

 

German social workers have the mantra that children cannot be properly prepared for responsible life in society without school. Doesn't that sound like thought control - except this time by the state? It is the state wanting to regulate indoctrination of the young.

 

How is it that people can't have the freedom to leave their country???? That sounds pretty unreasonable to me. Can you imagine wanting to homeschool, stopping homeschool, then trying to leave the country and get into trouble? What kind of free country is that - that you can't leave the country with your own children?

 

I do not have family names. I was told these stories by German and other European home educators who are long time home educators, have organizations, etc. There was a time when I was trying to track down names and precise stories but then got distracted with other life events. There is more than one family, of that I'm sure.

 

And how on earth are there supposed to be any grass-roots movements if there are no homeschoolers in the country?

 

It seems like the homeschoolers are in trouble if they do and in trouble if they don't with some people on this thread.

 

Who is going to bat for home education if they don't want to home educate themselves? How will they be able to show that it works if they aren't actually home educating in a European country - in Germany per se (Germany doesn't trust the results from the US or any other country for that matter)?

 

I'm surprised at some of the comments from people who are enjoying the freedom of home education which came at great expense for some of the pioneers in the US.

 

Yes, lots of Americans used to be against home education too - there are people who still are. But if people would have just stopped at that - because popular opinion was against it - there wouldn't be many people on this forum today.

 

Joan

 

Yes!

[Joan in GE]

 

Well, you really can't be sure. You are reporting stories told by you (without names I might add) that could be lacking significant details.

 

 

Dear Chocolate,

 

there are lots of languages here - I can't begin to read all the different home education sites in all the different countries (Russia has the most home educators at this point - a million the last I heard), no single home education association for all of Europe like HSLDA in the US to keep track of all the different stories and traumas that are going on....so yes, we go on trusting the accounts of leaders in the various countries and verify when possible. :-)

 

Joan

[Lang Syne Boardie]

jhschool, your arguments are illogical because you are arguing for a change in German law being brought about by American sympathy, as if our sensibilities are the primary force driving German law or opinion. This has nothing to do with us, or with how we feel about homeschooling or parental rights!

 

We can't change Germany's laws or national ideology by being American. We just can't. Also, we should be open-minded enough to examine whether our American sensibilities really are appropriate for the entire globe or whether it's possible that we don't know what's best for everybody else. Legal options were in place for this family. They could have moved freely within the EU to homeschool-friendly states. They did not have to homeschool illegally in Germany, and they did not have to come to a nation with no provision for granting them asylum based purely on their desire to homeschool.

 

We have laws regulating our practice of asylum for endangered persons. Just as the Romeikes should have challenged their nation's laws with which they disagreed through legal challenges and not through rogue actions, so should we remonstrate with our powers-that-be to have our laws concerning asylum changed if we don't like them. Ginning up un-informed sympathy and political action on the part of American homeschoolers is manipulative.

 

As it stands, the German family had and has legal options available to them but they are choosing to pursue an illegal course, instead, for reasons that we all might never fully understand. They were willing to break the law in Germany, and they are willing to try to force our government's hand to accommodate them, as well.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

Dear Chocolate,

 

there are lots of languages here - I can't begin to read all the different home education sites in all the different countries (Russia has the most home educators at this point - a million the last I heard), no single home education association for all of Europe like HSLDA in the US to keep track of all the different stories and traumas that are going on....so yes, we go on trusting the accounts of leaders in the various countries and verify when possible. :-)

 

Joan

 

Your response has nothing to do with what I said.

You are reporting vague anecdotal information as "fact", when it simply isn't. You can't be "sure" of something based on vague third hand reports.

[jhschool]

 

For one, in the US I would be mostly free to display a Nazi flag, publish books denying the holocaust or pamphlets describing Anne Frank as a fictional character created for propaganda purposes if I were so inclined. That is not something I could legally do in Germany or a number of other European nations. The way that we Americans think of freedom of speech as being essentially absolute barring inciting a riot or panic, is not shared by a number of other fully democratic countries.

 

I think you have hit on the basic difference.

We believe in freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom

of expression, and freedom to pursue happiness...

 

I never understood this before... the way freedom is engrained in us...

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Who should get to decide that what some people do is "isolation" and prevents them

from being exposed to other views? Or simply good parenting? The parents or the government?

(my answer: the parents)

 

That is your answer but not all cultures agree.

 

Should people be allowed to be free and raise their children exactly

how they wish?

(my answer: yes)

 

Exactly as how they wish? I seriously doubt you actually agree with that when it goes to extremes.

What determines extremes? The society in which the parents and children live.

 

When children grow up they can go and expose themselves to any ideas they want.

I guess we have identified the basic difference. I believe parents should decide exactly

how to raise their children and decide exactly how to educate them, and what their children

should be taught, religiously or educationally. If the government wants to be in the

business of educating children, that is fine (I happily pay my taxes so others can be

educated--I don't begrudge anyone that). But I believe the government in any country

should have no say at

all in whether children are taught at home, or what they are taught at home. If people

want help educating their children, that's what public schools are there for. But that should be

the parent's decision.

 

What you agree is fine. Not all cultures and societies agree with your views.

 

My summary: I do not believe in the government mandating uniformity of thought

in all its citizens beginning with them as children.

 

To be fair, Germany does not require uniformity of thought.

[Laura Corin]

I guess we have identified the basic difference. I believe parents should decide exactly

how to raise their children and decide exactly how to educate them, and what their children

should be taught, religiously or educationally.

 

I disagree with you.

 

You might want to consider the case law that has been established in England about home education. The original law states:

 

 

“The parent of every child of compulsory school age shall cause him to receive efficient

full-time education suitable –

(a) to his age, ability and aptitude, and

(b ) to any special educational needs he may have,

either by regular attendance at school or otherwise.â€

 

Further case law has elaborated the kind of education that is required by law:

 

 

Education that “primarily equips a child for life within the

community of which he is a member, rather than the way of life in the country as a whole,

as long as it does not foreclose the child’s options in later years to adopt some other form of

life if he wishes to do soâ€.

 

So, for example, it would not be considered acceptable to stop your child's maths education at twelve, even if that level was adequate for running the family hill sheep farm, if stopping meant that the child's future choices were curtailed. This seems to me to be a reasonable balance of rights and responsibilities.

 

Laura

[Mrs Mungo]

Saying they should not receive asylum in the US is completely different than claiming they shouldn't be allowed freedom of movement. I absolutely believe they should be allowed to leave Germany and pick a country with laws that suit them better. But, this is easy to do *compared to applying for and receiving political asylum in the US.* It *should not* be a comparison between changing states and changing EU countries. The family in question actually chose applying for political asylum in the US over moving to another EU country. Those are the choices up for discussion. It has zero to do with how easy/hard it is to move from state to state within the US. Did they have other options? Yes. Private religious school (since their asylum claim has a religious basis, I don't care what their real reasons might have been), umbrella school (I personally knew non-US citizens living in Germany who chose this option, I was involved with LLL in Germany, so I knew quite a few of those types), moving to a more homeschool friendly EU country or applying for a US visa in the normal manner.

 

I do strongly agree with regentude that the immigrant population, a desire for a rather homogenous society, a belief in their strong school system and a suspicion of anything that smacks of extremism are the main reasons that most Germans are not in favor of homeschooling. Having HSLDA involved is one of the worst things you could do for German homeschoolers because of those reasons.

 

And again, I believe the reason HSLDA took on this case was to have a federal precedent recognize homeschooling as a *religious* right. They don't care if the rest of us are able to freely homeschool or not.

[Laura Corin]

I think you have hit on the basic difference.

We believe in freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom

of expression, and freedom to pursue happiness...

 

I never understood this before... the way freedom is engrained in us...

 

Other countries see freedom as one good amongst other goods.

 

Laura

[jhschool]

jhschool, your arguments are illogical because you are arguing for a change in German law being brought about by American sympathy, as if our sensibilities are the primary force driving German law or opinion. This has nothing to do with us, or with how we feel about homeschooling or parental rights!

They did not have to homeschool illegally in Germany, and they did not have to come to a nation with no provision for granting them asylum based purely on their desire to homeschool.

Just as the Romeikes should have challenged their nation's laws with which they disagreed through legal challenges and not through rogue actions, so should we remonstrate with our powers-that-be to have our laws concerning asylum changed if we don't like them. Ginning up un-informed sympathy and political action on the part of American homeschoolers is manipulative.

 

As it stands, the German family had and has legal options available to them but they are choosing to pursue an illegal course, instead, for reasons that we all might never fully understand. They were willing to break the law in Germany, and they are willing to try to force our government's hand to accommodate them, as well.

 

And Rosa Parks should have stayed at the back of the bus. Why didn't she explore

her legal options instead of pursuing an illegal course?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

And Rosa Parks should have stayed at the back of the bus. Why didn't she explore

her legal options instead of pursuing an illegal course?

 

You are comparing educational law in 2013 Germany to Jim Crow laws in the southern United States in the 1950s. In my opinion, all this accomplishes is to demonstrate your lack of knowledge of either setting.

[stripe]

Germans might actually be more sympathetic to a "normal" piano teacher who wants to homeschool his kids to avoid bullying, rather than someone who is being portrayed as a religious fundamentalist trying to avoid "witchcraft" in school, so HSDLA is clearly hurting the real cause of homeschooling in Germany while increasing the outrage and fear in their political — and financial — base in the US. Which, of course, is their real goal.

 

Jackie

Yeah, the claims about what happened to the mom inschool, only vaguely remembered, don't seem very impressive to me. If you can't recall the nature of the thing that happened, how much did it really impact you? Almost reminds me of Aunt Ada's something nasty in the woodshed.

 

And Rosa Parks should have stayed at the back of the bus. Why didn't she explore

her legal options instead of pursuing an illegal course?

Rosa Parks was practicing peaceful disobedience. The equivalent here would be for the parents to homeschool vocally and get arrested, not move to the US. Mrs Parks did not simply move north. She made her point first.

[Corraleno]

jhschool, your arguments are illogical because you are arguing for a change in German law being brought about by American sympathy, as if our sensibilities are the primary force driving German law or opinion. This has nothing to do with us, or with how we feel about homeschooling or parental rights!

 

We can't change Germany's laws or national ideology by being American. We just can't. Also, we should be open-minded enough to examine whether our American sensibilities really are appropriate for the entire globe or whether it's possible that we don't know what's best for everybody else. Legal options were in place for this family. They could have moved freely within the EU to homeschool-friendly states. They did not have to homeschool illegally in Germany, and they did not have to come to a nation with no provision for granting them asylum based purely on their desire to homeschool.

:iagree: with everything you wrote, especially the bolded.

 

And I find it to be the height of hypocrisy that HSLDA is insisting that homeschooling is a "basic human right" worthy of asylum, while simultaneously using this case to whip up fear and political action in this country against signing the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

 

Jackie

[Mrs Mungo]

Should people be allowed to be free and raise their children exactly

how they wish?

(my answer: yes)

 

I am willing to bet that you don't *really* believe this. If the parents were living in a FLDS cult and wanted their kids married at 15, would you agree that the government has a right to step in? Do you agree that it is *ever* right for the government to step in to a parent's decision? Even if it is a decision to allow their kids to be delinquent from school (and not homeschool) or prostitute them or live in squalor or be homeless? Because if you agree that it is good and right for the government to sometimes step in, then the only disagreement is when and why.

 

If not, why do all children have to be raised uniformly in the way the

government decides?

(I suppose many of us are raising our children in "an atmosphere

of isolation that prevents them from being exposed to other views"--I know I do exactly

that. But I consider that a good thing, not a bad thing. )

 

The ironic thing about your statement is that the German culture/government is *so much* less likely to get in the business of raising your kids than American culture/goverment. The American culture/government is MUCH more likely to call the authorities on you than in Germany.

 

 

I guess we have identified the basic difference. I believe parents should decide exactly how to raise their children and decide exactly how to educate them, and what their children should be taught, religiously or educationally. If the government wants to be in the business of educating children, that is fine (I happily pay my taxes so others can be

educated--I don't begrudge anyone that). But I believe the government in any country

should have no say at all in whether children are taught at home, or what they are taught at home. If people want help educating their children, that's what public schools are there for. But that should be the parent's decision.

 

But those things are not fully true, even in the US. There are lots of decisions parents in the US *cannot* make without risk of losing their kids, just like everywhere else.

 

[Joan in GE]

nm

[jhschool]

You are comparing educational law in 2013 Germany to Jim Crow laws in the southern United States in the 1950s. In my opinion, all this accomplishes is to demonstrate your lack of knowledge of either setting.

 

You realized the differences, did you?

And so did I. Sometimes illegal action is required to bring about important changes...

in either setting.

 

BUT, OK, now that the rudeness has started, I am leaving...won't be reading, so

won't be responding...time to go have cupcakes somewhere else with the other gals!

 

Guys, it was great while it stayed civil. Regentrude, Jean in Geneva, Laura, Mrs Mungo,

Chocolate something, and several

other ladies, I appreciate all your views, and

it has actually been fascinating. I look forward to sharing opinions

with you in the near future!

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

And Rosa Parks should have stayed at the back of the bus. Why didn't she explore

her legal options instead of pursuing an illegal course?

 

Should Rosa Parks have requested asylum in Canada or the UK or France to avoid the persecution she was facing in the USA?

[LucyStoner]

I think you have hit on the basic difference.

We believe in freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom

of expression, and freedom to pursue happiness...

 

I never understood this before... the way freedom is engrained in us...

 

Well bluntly, having had to live next to American skinhead neo-Nazi wannabe types, some of whom killed my (black) brother's dog, I personally would be comfortable with more limits on certain speech. Their freedom of speech shouldn't trump my family's ability to live free from fear. We had to move. You can certainly make a case that their right to freedom of speech shouldn't be usable to terrorize a 13 year old boy and his entire biracial family. Their freedom of speech certainly impinged on our happiness and sense of safety.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Disagreement is not rude. Difference of opinion is not rude. Stating that you don't seem to know what you're talking about was not meant to be rude; it is my opinion and you are free and welcome to prove me wrong by either explaining yourself further or offering a different analogy. I said what I thought to see if you could expand upon your analogy or clarify it, or if you would abandon it for another. If I thought you weren't worth talking to, or if I thought you were a raving idiot, I wouldn't have posted at all.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't think anyone has been rude, fwiw. Maybe people are used to homogenous thought, themselves, instead of vigorous disagreement?

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

Well bluntly, having had to live next to American skinhead neo-Nazi wannabe types, some of whom killed my (black) brother's dog, I personally would be comfortable with more limits on certain speech. Their freedom of speech shouldn't trump my family's ability to live free from fear. We had to move.

 

:( I do think freedom of speech is an important cornerstone of American culture. But, I also agree that you shouldn't fear your neighbor because they are then stepping on your fundamental rights. I am sorry you had to go through that.

[Corraleno]

I don't think anyone has been rude, fwiw. Maybe people are used to homogenous thought, themselves, instead of vigorous disagreement?

 

Ironic, no? Kind of like arguing "the government has no right to indoctrinate my children — that's my job!"

 

IMHO, if parents are so terrified of even having their children exposed to information that does not 100% align with their own beliefs, then they must not be doing a very good job of teaching critical thinking skills — and maybe those kids would be better off with a little outside exposure.

 

Jackie

[LucyStoner]

:( I do think freedom of speech is an important cornerstone of American culture. But, I also agree that you shouldn't fear your neighbor because they are then stepping on your fundamental rights. I am sorry you had to go through that.

 

I generally do support freedom of speech, even reprehensible speech. I do think the line where it crosses from speech to intimidation or criminal menacing is something that needs to be more fully fleshed out. I think that other nations can be free and democratic without the American definition of freedom of speech however.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

I generally do support freedom of speech, even reprehensible speech. I do think the line where it crosses from speech to intimidation or criminal menacing is something that needs to be more fully fleshed out. I think that other nations can be free and democratic without the American definition of freedom of speech however.

 

I agree whole-heartedly.

[Audrey]

Other countries see freedom as one good amongst other goods.

 

Laura

 

Quite.

 

 

 

And, freedoms end where another's rights begin. You have the freedom to think and say what you like, but only to the point just before you begin to violate another's rights.

[LucyStoner]

Audrey raised a good point. Should members of the FLDS be eligible for asylum elsewhere because US tax laws and state bigamy and statutory rape laws are persecuting them? I would argue that states have the right to make child rape and statutory rape laws and to enforce them regardless of the personal or religious beliefs of the parents. Warren Jeffs believes that he is being religiously persecuted because he was convicted on child rape and other charges. Is he vaguely correct? No. Feeling oppressed is not objective proof that there is oppression happening.

[regentrude]

Is it unreasonable that I raise my child to think what I believe?

(my answer: no)

 

To take just this one point: YES. Yes, I find it unreasonable, and wrong, to raise my child to think what I believe instead of raising my children to think for themselves.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

To take just this one point: YES. Yes, I find it unreasonable, and wrong, to raise my child to think what I believe instead of raising my children to think for themselves.

 

Wow. I missed that.

[LucyStoner]

To take just this one point: YES. Yes, I find it unreasonable, and wrong, to raise my child to think what I believe instead of raising my children to think for themselves.

 

You are my new hero. You have summed up exactly what has troubled me at times in the homeschooling community.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You are my new hero. You have summed up exactly what has troubled me at times in the homeschooling community.

 

I'm never hosting a non-inclusive homeschooling event at my house again. I was really shocked on one occasion when I was taken to task for the books on my shelf. Sacred texts of other religions offended them! Liberal authors who happen to be part of the Western canon, by most definitions, were considered anathema. I was told my children should only have Christian curriculum. Those people have permanently lost the right to discuss education with me, or to teach or influence my children in any way. I think their opinions are terrifying, especially when I know that they wish they could influence all of homeschooling and even public education in America.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm never hosting a non-inclusive homeschooling event at my house again. I was really shocked on one occasion when I was taken to task for the books on my shelf. Sacred texts of other religions offended them! Liberal authors who happen to be part of the Western canon, by most definitions, were considered anathema. I was told my children should only have Christian curriculum. Those people have permanently lost the right to discuss education with me, or to teach or influence my children in any way. I think their opinions are terrifying, especially when I know that they wish they could influence all of homeschooling and even public education in America.

 

 

I agree. Except, I have never personally had that happen at my house. By the time we get to the coming to my house stage, those people pretty much know what they are going to find there. My kids show up to homeschool functions with Ramones t-shirts, Harry Potter book bags and regularly loan out books forbidden to other kids.

 

ETA: They don't loan them out to kids whose parents don't allow it. But, the fact they are loaning them out to other kids who are allowed earns them a...um...what word am I looking for? Certain label?

 

What if they were running a library for kids whose parents disapproved of certain books? Would they be right or wrong? Would they be encouraging rebellion or freedom? Should kids request asylum in my home to allow them more freedom? Hm.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

 

To take just this one point: YES. Yes, I find it unreasonable, and wrong, to raise my child to think what I believe instead of raising my children to think for themselves.

 

 

This is an excellent point too.