Have we talked about this? German Homeschooling Family Seeks Asylum in US

[Melissa in Australia]

If it were legal to kill different men in some countries I would still call it persecution.

If it were legal to maim girls in some countries I would still call it persecution.

 

 

Just because something is legal in other countries does not make it NOT persecution as

far as we are concerned. The legality in other countries should not make us decide whether

it is or isn't persecution.

 

When it was legal to beat your wife with a certain sized stick it was still wrong, and persecution

as far as I'm concerned.

 

Why should we define our idea of persecution depending on whether a foreign country

makes it legal or not? There are many things they do to their own people in North Korea

which we would definitely call persecution (putting them in concentration camps, torturing

them, maiming and killing them and their families). And it is legal.

 

I cannot imagine anything worse being done to me than having my child taken away.

I would feel like a slave. It is not killing or maiming, but I would call it persecution.

 

 

I would be careful with what you present in your argument.

Doesn't the American government put people in concentration camps (under a different name), torture them, mame and even just go to other countries and Kill people?????? At least that is what we hear all the time on the news. I think you have a case of the pot calling the kettle black in your argument

[FaithManor]

I also think it is prosecution even if there wasn't the religious issue. I think the religious

issue is irrelevant.

Even if they were secular homeschoolers who pulled out of secular school, I think

it is prosecution to threaten to take their kids away. They should be allowed to homeschool in

their own country. I think it's horrible.

I think kids should only be removed from a family if there is abuse going on, not

if the family is exercising a human right of educating their own children.

Why should they have to move to the UK? They should be allowed to stay in their

own country and not be persecuted.

Why don't we turn away all the asylum seekers and say, hey, you can move to the UK--

you'll be safe there? We don't want you.

Taking one's kids away is absolutely persecution. What would we call it if that happened to us?

And why shouldn't they seek asylum here? Why shouldn't any persecuted person seek

asylum here, the land of the free?

 

The reason they should not seek asylum is because this level of persecution does not qualify by US standards. Like it or not, that is the law. We have a limited number of immigration spots that are given to citizens of foreign countries who seek to emigrate to the US without jumping the hoops that all other legal immigrants must jump in order to reside here legally. It is appalling to me that we would give asylum to this family and send some else to be tortured and murdered in their home country. That's the line. Asylum is for people in extraordinary, profound, dangerous, life threatening, potential of torture and execution situations. A case cannot be made that Germany is going to torture these parents, put them in a gulag with a bread and water ration working in a rock quarry for 20 years, or execute them for homeschooling!

 

Here are some 2011 statistics from the Department of Homeland Security:

 

The refugee ceiling for 2011 - 80,000 (Refugee 80,001 would be turned away from even applying.) (This does not mean that the law allows 80,000 refugees to be granted asylum each year...just that we can have 80,000 refugees come and hope their petition will be heard.)

 

Refugees admitted - 56,384

 

24, 988 were granted asylum

 

Of the petitions granted after investigation by the Department of Homeland Security, Butan, Iraq, and Burma/Myanmar were the most represented.

 

Of the petitions granted after investigation by the Department of Justice - Venezuela, China, and Ethiopia.

 

These two numbers represent individuals who made it to the United States and petitioned for asylum from within.

 

Derivitive Asylum - granted to a small percentage of asylum seekers while they are still living in their homeland so they can travel here - Nepal, Haiti, and China are the three largest nationalities represented.

 

While religious persecution is considered in the petition, the concern of the American court system is with the severity. One must be in imminent danger of physical abuse and/or death/long term imprisonment, etc. in order to be considered. That's the law. In this family's case, they were not members of any religious group/denomination/faith system that they could readily identify to the judge (ie. members of the Lutheran Church or a Baptist Church or a Jewish Synagogue, or...you get the idea), they could not remember specific examples of what exactly they were against in the German School system...essentially, the comments were too general to be investigated, they were not threatened with the loss of custody of their children - they said they were afraid this might happen, but there were no petitions in German courts to have the children removed and there had only been one other case of a homeschool family losing custody of their children, they were not in danger of being beaten, imprisoned without due process, tortured, their assets had not been seized, nor were they going to be executed for their beliefs or activism.

 

But, the people whose asylum petitions were granted from places like Butan, Iraq, Burma, and Ethiopia, face much more grave circumstances.

 

No one has a problem with them moving to the US under the regular rules of immigration. Get a work visa, apply to college, find a sponsor, be.our.guest. Remember, right here on this board we have a homeschooling mother whose homeland is Germany. She is here legally. Not by asylum or refugee status, but by going throught the legal process for work and residency. I'm glad she's here!

 

The problem many of us have is with this family attempting this by seeking asylum. Refugee status is not appropriate in this case. Not.at.all. We limit the number of petitions we grant each year and so these spots should go to those that are truly in desperate need.

 

Most people also do not realize that immigration has regional caps as well so 20,000 refugees from one nation would not be allowed...it's too big of a security risk. So, one's petition is stacked against how many others are in the country from your homeland and that includes the number that are here legally through the normal route of seeking sponsorship, getting a work or student visa, etc.

 

There are roughly 7 billion people living on planet earth. The UN Council on Human Rights estimates that 23-27% live in truly oppressive regimes. This is approximately 1,750,000,000. This is a very conservative estimate if you ask me when you consider the horrible human rights violations in some very densely populated nations. But, we'll go with it. We have a refugee ceiling of 80,000 in this nation and we granted asylum to 24,000. This amounts to 0.00000137% of the 1.75 billion. Since this is all our laws allow, it is a very grave mistake to award asylum to anyone not in imminent danger of torture or death. Someone could, I suppose, make the case that the restrictions on homeschooling by say Vermont or Pennsylvania represent persecution and seek asylum in the UK. However, if the UK is as stingy with it's asylum grants as we are, they would be in a sad state of poor judgment to award it when there are truly desperate individuals on the list.

 

Just like a family in Pennsylvania could choose to move to Michigan and have no oversight, the family in question had many options of EASILY moving to other EU countries that allow homeschooling due to the generous immigration policies between EU nations. The fact that this was a readily available option to them, also makes the case for asylum very suspicious.

 

Faith

[jhschool]

About the pot calling the kettle black:

 

My argument has nothing to do with that.

 

If we do it to our own people or other people, it's STILL persecution.

Just because we do things that are legal and wrong doesn't mean

the other country isn't doing things that are legal and wrong. And it's

persecution.

 

I am being quite careful in my argument.

 

If something is legal and terrible to people

in another country, that doesn't make it NOT persecution.

 

You can add us in if you want. It's still persecution.

 

When did I say in my argument "The U.S. never persecutes anybody?"

 

The pot calling the kettle black does not make the kettle any less black.

We're all the same color. Bad and sad, but true.

 

And if that family gets asylum here, I for one will be very happy for them.

[jhschool]

The reason they should not seek asylum is because this level of persecution does not qualify by US standards. Like it or not, that is the law. We have a limited number of immigration spots that are given to citizens of foreign countries who seek to emigrate to the US without jumping the hoops that all other legal immigrants must jump in order to reside here legally. It is appalling to me that we would give asylum to this family and send some else to be tortured and murdered in their home country. That's the line. Asylum is for people in extraordinary, profound, dangerous, life threatening, potential of torture and execution situations. A case cannot be made that Germany is going to torture these parents, put them in a gulag with a bread and water ration working in a rock quarry for 20 years, or execute them for homeschooling!

 

Here are some 2011 statistics from the Department of Homeland Security:

 

The refugee ceiling for 2011 - 80,000 (Refugee 80,001 would be turned away from even applying.) (This does not mean that the law allows 80,000 refugees to be granted asylum each year...just that we can have 80,000 refugees come and hope their petition will be heard.)

 

Refugees admitted - 56,384

 

24, 988 were granted asylum

 

Of the petitions granted after investigation by the Department of Homeland Security, Butan, Iraq, and Burma/Myanmar were the most represented.

 

Of the petitions granted after investigation by the Department of Justice - Venezuela, China, and Ethiopia.

 

These two numbers represent individuals who made it to the United States and petitioned for asylum from within.

 

Derivitive Asylum - granted to a small percentage of asylum seekers while they are still living in their homeland so they can travel here - Nepal, Haiti, and China are the three largest nationalities represented.

 

While religious persecution is considered in the petition, the concern of the American court system is with the severity. One must be in imminent danger of physical abuse and/or death/long term imprisonment, etc. in order to be considered. That's the law. In this family's case, they were not members of any religious group/denomination/faith system that they could readily identify to the judge (ie. members of the Lutheran Church or a Baptist Church or a Jewish Synagogue, or...you get the idea), they could not remember specific examples of what exactly they were against in the German School system...essentially, the comments were too general to be investigated, they were not threatened with the loss of custody of their children - they said they were afraid this might happen, but there were no petitions in German courts to have the children removed and there had only been one other case of a homeschool family losing custody of their children, they were not in danger of being beaten, imprisoned without due process, tortured, their assets had not been seized, nor were they going to be executed for their beliefs or activism.

 

But, the people whose asylum petitions were granted from places like Butan, Iraq, Burma, and Ethiopia, face much more grave circumstances.

 

No one has a problem with them moving to the US under the regular rules of immigration. Get a work visa, apply to college, find a sponsor, be.our.guest. Remember, right here on this board we have a homeschooling mother whose homeland is Germany. She is here legally. Not by asylum or refugee status, but by going throught the legal process for work and residency. I'm glad she's here!

 

The problem many of us have is with this family attempting this by seeking asylum. Refugee status is not appropriate in this case. Not.at.all. We limit the number of petitions we grant each year and so these spots should go to those that are truly in desperate need.

 

Most people also do not realize that immigration has regional caps as well so 20,000 refugees from one nation would not be allowed...it's too big of a security risk. So, one's petition is stacked against how many others are in the country from your homeland and that includes the number that are here legally through the normal route of seeking sponsorship, getting a work or student visa, etc.

 

There are roughly 7 billion people living on planet earth. The UN Council on Human Rights estimates that 23-27% live in truly oppressive regimes. This is approximately 1,750,000,000. This is a very conservative estimate if you ask me when you consider the horrible human rights violations in some very densely populated nations. But, we'll go with it. We have a refugee ceiling of 80,000 in this nation and we granted asylum to 24,000. This amounts to 0.00000137% of the 1.75 billion. Since this is all our laws allow, it is a very grave mistake to award asylum to anyone not in imminent danger of torture or death. Someone could, I suppose, make the case that the restrictions on homeschooling by say Vermont or Pennsylvania represent persecution and seek asylum in the UK. However, if the UK is as stingy with it's asylum grants as we are, they would be in a sad state of poor judgment to award it when there are truly desperate individuals on the list.

 

Just like a family in Pennsylvania could choose to move to Michigan and have no oversight, the family in question had many options of EASILY moving to other EU countries that allow homeschooling due to the generous immigration policies between EU nations. The fact that this was a readily available option to them, also makes the case for asylum very suspicious.

 

Faith

 

I of course would like to see everyone granted asylum but of course that is not possible.

I have no problem with anything you said, but I would still like to see this family win. Just like

I would like Pennsylvania to become like Michigan (or every state become

like Michigan, for that matter).

[Rosie_0801]

Jhschool, you can define persecution however you like, but you are not entitled to vote in German elections, so what they do isn't your business while it isn't breaking international law.

[Melissa in Australia]

Jhschool, you can define persecution however you like, but you are not entitled to vote in German elections, so what they do isn't your business while it isn't breaking international law.

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

 

If something is legal and terrible to people

in another country, that doesn't make it NOT persecution.

 

You can add us in if you want. It's still persecution.

 

I believe that the law (US law) disagrees with you, which is why their case was overturned. It doesn't matter what I think, what Audrey thinks, what Rosie thinks, what Tammy thinks or what you think. There are criteria laid out in the law and the higher court decided that this case does not meet them.

[Laura Corin]

And why shouldn't they seek asylum here? Why shouldn't any persecuted person seek

asylum here, the land of the free?

 

 

You will find that the UK also gives many people asylum, despite being a tiny and overcrowded country. I can see it now:

 

German family: We want to claim asylum

UK Border Officer: But you are in the EU passport line, just go on through.

German family: But we've been persecuted and not allowed to homeschool

UK Border Officer: Well, we call it home education around here, but you are welcome to do it legally without informing the authorities. Please stop holding up the queue.

German family: But we've been persecuted!

UK Border Officer: Well, you're not being persecuted now but you are inconveniencing the rest of the line. Please move on through.

 

 

Laura

[Caroline]

If it were legal to kill different men in some countries I would still call it persecution.

If it were legal to maim girls in some countries I would still call it persecution.

 

 

Just because something is legal in other countries does not make it NOT persecution as

far as we are concerned. The legality in other countries should not make us decide whether

it is or isn't persecution.

 

When it was legal to beat your wife with a certain sized stick it was still wrong, and persecution

as far as I'm concerned.

 

Why should we define our idea of persecution depending on whether a foreign country

makes it legal or not? There are many things they do to their own people in North Korea

which we would definitely call persecution (putting them in concentration camps, torturing

them, maiming and killing them and their families). And it is legal.

 

I cannot imagine anything worse being done to me than having my child taken away.

I would feel like a slave. It is not killing or maiming, but I would call it persecution.

 

But shouldn't we save our asylum spots for the type of people you are describing here? Have you ever met someone who has been granted asylum here? The kids I know, well, they are broken and scared and... Well, to put this family on the same level as them is, well, I cannot think of a nice way to say what I am thinking. Suffice it to say, these kids and their families wish their problems could have been as insignificant as this German family you are putting on the same level. Having to go to school? How does that compare with not being able to walk outside without being raped or beaten or shot at?

[jhschool]

Jhschool, you can define persecution however you like, but you are not entitled to vote in German elections, so what they do isn't your business while it isn't breaking international law.

 

I know I can't vote in German elections.

 

It is my business. I would help if I could. When any family in the world is

not allowed to have control over their own children it is my business. Why

wouldn't it be my business? If I were a lawyer I would find ways to help them.

[jhschool]

I believe that the law (US law) disagrees with you, which is why their case was overturned. It doesn't matter what I think, what Audrey thinks, what Rosie thinks, what Tammy thinks or what you think. There are criteria laid out in the law and the higher court decided that this case does not meet them.

 

Yes. The law disagrees with me. And I think they are wrong. And it does matter

what we think. Of course it matters.

And sometimes laws and courts don't do the best or right thing.

[jhschool]

You will find that the UK also gives many people asylum, despite being a tiny and overcrowded country. I can see it now:

German family: We want to claim asylum

UK Border Officer: But you are in the EU passport line, just go on through.

German family: But we've been persecuted and not allowed to homeschool

UK Border Officer: Well, we call it home education around here, but you are welcome to do it legally without informing the authorities. Please stop holding up the queue.

German family: But we've been persecuted!

UK Border Officer: Well, you're not being persecuted now but you are inconveniencing the rest of the line. Please move on through.

Laura

 

I am happy the UK grants asylum. I am also happy that the British can homeschool

without difficulties. I have always admired the UK, and that makes me admire the UK more than ever.

 

 

I still think the US should grant them asylum.

[jhschool]

 

But shouldn't we save our asylum spots for the type of people you are describing here? Have you ever met someone who has been granted asylum here? The kids I know, well, they are broken and scared and... Well, to put this family on the same level as them is, well, I cannot think of a nice way to say what I am thinking. Suffice it to say, these kids and their families wish their problems could have been as insignificant as this German family you are putting on the same level. Having to go to school? How does that compare with not being able to walk outside without being raped or beaten or shot at?

 

You are correct in saying that there are worse things than not being able to homeschool your

children. I never said they are on the same level.

 

I am saying they should still have been granted asylum. And so should the ones with immediate bodily threat.

 

Not every evil in the world needs to be at the same level as the worse evils in the world

to try to combat them. Making a scale of "well, since A is worse than B, B shouldn't get help"

is not what I expect from a good society. We should care about all the persecuted people in

the world, whether they are being physically hurt or whether their children are being taken

away by the government when they do not comply with the government's orders.

 

Yes, I have met many, many refugees, ever since I was a child.

And some of them have become my best friends. And I am glad their

families received asylum here. Of course I am.

 

And the German family should have been helped too. No one should have their children

taken away because they refuse to turn them over to the government for half of their

waking hours.

[regentrude]

No one should have their children

taken away because they refuse to turn them over to the government for half of their

waking hours.

 

 

Nobody has to "turn their children over to the government" - they would have been perfectly free to choose an independent school or a religious school. We have those in Germany.

[CandaceC]

I know all of you realize that these few links you are reading is not in fact the whole story.

 

This family lives in our area and has attended our large, non-fundy, church lots of times but attends regularly elsewhere. I had one of the younger ones in vbs a few years ago.

 

They are a precious family that has been through a heck of a lot. I'm surprised to see so many of you suggesting private school. If you believe in homeschooling and believe you should have that right, why is that a good option?

 

[LaxMom]

I don't feel sorry for the family. I have no sympathy for the case. They had other, easily attainable options. Instead they have allowed themselves to be played as pawns in a propaganda game of witlessness by HSLDA. They jumped at the chance to play up a non-story as religious persecution in order to pander to their base and denote Germany the anti-christian boogeyman out to take over all of christendom.

 

I am continually repulsed by the American insistence that their way is always the better way and insinuations that their laws need to be enforced in every other country that might have a different idea, no matter how relatively benign the differences may be. Moreso, I'm disgusted by the countries that throw open the doors and allow the infiltration. In other words, this is MYOB issue AFAIC.

 

As an American, I agree. It's embarrassing and frustrating.

 

The expectation that one abides by the laws of one's country (state, local jurisdiction) is not persecution. It's citizenship. If you can't abide them, you change your citizenship or work to change the laws. You do not claim. You are a refugee. That's absurd, and offensive to those who are actually fleeing for their lives.

[Joan in GE]

I don't want to discuss whether this should be asylum or not, or all the other issues people are discussing except this one....

 

moving to other European countries....

 

Moving around Europe is not 'generally' the same thing as moving around the US. Yes you have some people doing it, but the more children you have and the more specialized your field, the harder it would be.

 

People I knew who were able to do it, basically did illegal things in relation to funding - getting their child subsidies from Germany for example, even though they weren't living there......It is not as easy as people think, in ways that the average American would have trouble understanding.

 

Germany has been able to take children back from families that have moved into other EU countries due to homeschooling issues. I don't know whether that would have been able to happen for this family or not - but it has definitely happened already to people who fled to France and Austria. (I don't know if it has happened with other countries or not).

 

Almost all the European countries are tightening and restricting home education laws and freedoms. Only a few years ago England fought off the Badman initiative ....Switzerland generally is becoming more restrictive. In fact here, the German speaking cantons are mostly much more restrictive than the French ones - in some it is completely illegal. Switzerland is very expensive - and depending on the skills, it wouldn't necessarily be easy to get a job....Wasn't one of them a music teacher?

 

I can't say I like HSLDA but I am sympathetic to people who want the freedom to home educate their children - they become very desperate sometimes - like a momma bear backed into a corner - willing to go to desperate means to keep that freedom, not that this family seemed to have that attitude.

 

But when you read the story of the Swedish boy, Dominic Johansson, who was taken from his parents as they were leaving on an airplane (and still hasn't been returned even after lots of international support - it must be about at least 6 years now )- you do get a different picture of the 'police state' mentality that is possible over here....

 

You might find this interview interesting...with a Swedish homeschooling father whose family is now in exile..

 

Germany has its own 'child abuse' scandals in private schools....

 

Joan

[elegantlion]

I don't feel sorry for the family. I have no sympathy for the case. They had other, easily attainable options. Instead they have allowed themselves to be played as pawns in a propaganda game of witlessness by HSLDA. They jumped at the chance to play up a non-story as religious persecution in order to pander to their base and denote Germany the anti-christian boogeyman out to take over all of christendom.

 

I am continually repulsed by the American insistence that their way is always the better way and insinuations that their laws need to be enforced in every other country that might have a different idea, no matter how relatively benign the differences may be. Moreso, I'm disgusted by the countries that throw open the doors and allow the infiltration. In other words, this is MYOB issue AFAIC.

 

 

You can't take American law and culture and throw it over another country's law and culture. This is a German issue.

 

The reason they should not seek asylum is because this level of persecution does not qualify by US standards. Like it or not, that is the law.

Faith

 

 

I'd rather see Syrian refugees given asylum.

 

Wasn't there a story a few years back about an American not being allowed to immigrate to New Zealand because her BMI was too high. Different country, different rules.

 

About the pot calling the kettle black:

 

My argument has nothing to do with that.

 

If we do it to our own people or other people, it's STILL persecution.

Just because we do things that are legal and wrong doesn't mean

the other country isn't doing things that are legal and wrong. And it's

persecution.

 

I

 

 

One could argue that America's lack of health care for all citizens is a form of persecution. I'm sure many of the EU countries that have systems of health care for all are shaking their heads are our "persecution". Many people can't afford to go to the doctor when they are sick. There are stories right on this board about the BS that many have had to go through to provide services for a ill spouse. Dying because you can't get services that are there for the insured or the wealthy is a form of persecution, way more than rather you have the choice to homeschool. I don't see the Germans over here telling us how to run our health care.

[CandaceC]

never mind. :)

[Laura Corin]

I still think the US should grant them asylum.

 

Why, when they have other options? You say you admire the UK. Are you saying that the US is a shinier country than the UK? Or that their level of hurt needs to be assuaged by the symbol of asylum? Or....?

 

Laura

[Joan in GE]

 

 

What I don't understand is why couldn't they have tried to move in a more traditional method - leaving homeschooling out of it and searching for a job or whatnot elsewhere (of course, restricting their search to the non-illegal countries)??

 

I don't know about their particular case, but there were some changes to the German laws not that long ago which make you considered to be unfit psychologically to be a parent 'JUST FOR THINKING ABOUT HOMESCHOOLING'. And then they can chase you down even for leaving supposedly for other reasons. They consider the children as belonging to the government, not the parents.

 

People in the US have little idea of how crazy the German politicians/government are about this.....

 

And about leaving before....well, for a long time people have been working on changing the laws, hoping time and again that this court case or that one would change the situation. They stayed with the hope that there would be freedom!!!

 

I think the people that have stayed as long as they have and tried to work to change the system are completely amazing in terms of their determination and concern for freedom for home education. But I can understand why anyone would leave.

 

When it comes down to my children today vs other people's children tomorrow - well, at some point, the freedom for my children today can take precedence.

 

I know a family who would like to leave Germany but doesn't have the money to do so. It takes a lot of money to make an international move - even to another EU country....

 

We had to pay 3 months of rent up front....

 

Joan

[jhschool]

...

This family lives in our area and has attended our large, non-fundy, church lots of times but attends regularly elsewhere. I had one of the younger ones in vbs a few years ago.

They are a precious family that has been through a heck of a lot. I'm surprised to see so many of you suggesting private school. If you believe in homeschooling and believe you should have that right, why is that a good option?

 

I want you to tell them that there are people here who support them;

tell them that my heart goes out to them and that I wish them the best.

I believe in freedom for all parents in the world to educate their children at home

without the government taking them away.

To me, that is a basic human right. (Not the only human right, of course, but a basic one.)

[jhschool]

Why, when they have other options? You say you admire the UK. Are you saying that the US is a shinier country than the UK? Or that their level of hurt needs to be assuaged by the symbol of asylum? Or....?

 

Laura

 

I think the US should grant them asylum because this is where they applied for asylum.

[chiguirre]

 

Moving around Europe is not 'generally' the same thing as moving around the US. Yes you have some people doing it, but the more children you have and the more specialized your field, the harder it would be.

 

Joan

 

It IS harder to move within Europe than the US, but it's NOTHING compared to trying to claim asylum legally in the US. Heck, it's nothing compared to trying to get an H-1 visa with a job offer in hand.

[jhschool]

I don't want to discuss whether this should be asylum or not, or all the other issues people are discussing except this one....

 

moving to other European countries....

 

Moving around Europe is not 'generally' the same thing as moving around the US. Yes you have some people doing it, but the more children you have and the more specialized your field, the harder it would be.

 

People I knew who were able to do it, basically did illegal things in relation to funding - getting their child subsidies from Germany for example, even though they weren't living there......It is not as easy as people think, in ways that the average American would have trouble understanding.

 

Germany has been able to take children back from families that have moved into other EU countries due to homeschooling issues. I don't know whether that would have been able to happen for this family or not - but it has definitely happened already to people who fled to France and Austria. (I don't know if it has happened with other countries or not).

 

Almost all the European countries are tightening and restricting home education laws and freedoms. Only a few years ago England fought off the Badman initiative ....Switzerland generally is becoming more restrictive. In fact here, the German speaking cantons are mostly much more restrictive than the French ones - in some it is completely illegal. Switzerland is very expensive - and depending on the skills, it wouldn't necessarily be easy to get a job....Wasn't one of them a music teacher?

...

But when you read the story of the Swedish boy, Dominic Johansson, who was taken from his parents as they were leaving on an airplane (and still hasn't been returned even after lots of international support - it must be about at least 6 years now )- you do get a different picture of the 'police state' mentality that is possible over here....

...

Joan

 

My heart goes out to the parents of the Swedish boy...I cannot imagine...

[Laura Corin]

It IS harder to move within Europe than the US, but it's NOTHING compared to trying to claim asylum legally in the US. Heck, it's nothing compared to trying to get an H-1 visa with a job offer in hand.

 

Yes. I am probably one of the few on this board who is a) an EU citizen, b ) has lived in more than one EU country and c) has tangled with the US immigration service. A train across the border within the EU would be my choice every time; apart from anything else, I would have immediate reciprocal health care services instead of the terror that I experienced uninsured in the US.

 

Laura

[regentrude]

I don't know about their particular case, but there were some changes to the German laws not that long ago which make you considered to be unfit psychologically to be a parent 'JUST FOR THINKING ABOUT HOMESCHOOLING'. And then they can chase you down even for leaving supposedly for other reasons. They consider the children as belonging to the government, not the parents.

 

Could you please provide me with a source of this claim, preferably an original German one? I highly doubt that a law can be made that penalizes a parent for thinking.

 

People in the US have little idea of how crazy the German politicians/government are about this.....

 

People in the US have little idea about how religious fundamentalism is viewed in Germany by the people.

To the general population, it is NOT considered acceptable to isolate one's children from the rest of society in order to instill values that are out of sync with the societal norms. With the increasing Muslim population and pockets of people who are actively resisting assimilation, creating a subculture that isolates these children to be indoctrinated only by their group is a major worry.

The USA is a country of immigration and melting pit of cultures and ideas. Germany is, historically, a homogenous country that draws its stability form cultural homogeneity and from people agreeing on a common set of values and norms.

 

And about leaving before....well, for a long time people have been working on changing the laws, hoping time and again that this court case or that one would change the situation. They stayed with the hope that there would be freedom!!!

 

As I said before, there is no chance that the laws will change as long as the spokespeople that propagate homeschooling are of this particular ilk. The damage this case has done to the movement to legalize homeschooling in Germany is immense: German law makers and the public will never legalize homeschooling if they see this as a vehicle to push religious extremism, of whatever religion.

All the people who would want to homeschool for other reasons suffer from this high profile involvement of the organization.

[FaithManor]

I know all of you realize that these few links you are reading is not in fact the whole story.

 

This family lives in our area and has attended our large, non-fundy, church lots of times but attends regularly elsewhere. I had one of the younger ones in vbs a few years ago.

 

They are a precious family that has been through a heck of a lot. I'm surprised to see so many of you suggesting private school. If you believe in homeschooling and believe you should have that right, why is that a good option?

 

It is mainly because we do not believe that the country of America has the right to interfere in these types of matters in other countries. I have a right in the this nation to homeschool, but this is due to the constitution we have and the interpretation of that constitution. It wasn't always so and good people had to fight the good fight, here on U.S. soil to gain the right. Germany, France, China, Brazil, the U.N. didn't come tell the U.S. what to do with its educational policy. It was a U.S. issue. I feel for the family, but this is not a violation of international law, the family is not in danger of torture or death or gulag imprisonment, so it's not appropriate for the United States to intervene. My opinion, yes, that I'd love for German citizens to have the same option I do, is just that, my opinion. I have tremendous compassion for them except in their attempt to seek asylum. I actually consider that immoral and that is, of course, my opinion as well. I consider it immoral because again, we only grant around 25,000 refugee asylum petitions each year in a world in which 1.75 billion people live in oppressive regimes, Germany NOT being one of them, and so I consider it reprehensive to give let's see, two parents plus kids (they have five if memory serves) - seven positions to people who aren't going to be tortured, raped, or murdered if they are returned home and seven other people who are going to face exactly that, get deported and suffer unimaginable horror because we've hit our quota for the year. Maybe what people should get outraged about is how few asylum petitions we grant. We could become activists for a change in immigration law. However, someone will get all up in arms about "how will these people support themselves and can we afford this" and so on and so forth. It's NOT a simple issue as much as many would like it to boil down to that.

 

This is the crux of the matter. Nobody cares a fig about them moving here. This is America, we have a path for regular immigration and so follow it, move here, and homeschool your kids if that's what you want to do. The frustration and anger comes from claiming refugee status and attempting to take away six or seven of those precious few asylum spots from people who are truly in danger who cannot wait to come here through regular channels and will suffer untold horrors if their petition is rejected because the quote is filled.

 

Truthfully, hey, move to Tennessee and homeschool, that's great! Do it right. Don't come over here making unsubstantiated claims about your democratic government that 1/4th of the world's population would give their right arm to live under and take away someone else's chance to escape the true horror they live with. Follow the appropriate and prescribed path for immigration and since they had perfectly acceptable options while waiting for work or residency visas, they should have exercised them. Honestly, it boggles my imagination. Burmese, Butanese, Iraqi refugees fighting for their very lives, and we would consider NOT being able to homeschool as a greater problem.

 

If Germans want to gain the right to homeschool, they need to do it the same way it was done here. They have a representative government and due process. They can organize the citizenry, get the grass roots movement going, and start the petitions. They can go to the capitol and speak with their duly elected officials, they can take to the airways, and they can hire attorneys. That is how it was done here. They will be better for it. The vast majority of Germans do not support homeschooling as a parental right, therefore, a grassroots movement needs to take to the streets to help people see whatever evidence they would like to present and work to change their minds. That's how democracies work.

 

We weren't bullied by other nations and our government NEVER would have tolerated that kind of international pressure.This kind of thing, when there isn't any breach of international law, has very bad consequences for foreign policy and the ability of civilized countries to get along together on planet earth. I may dearly love my right to homeschool my children in this nation, but I'm no fan of bullying a NATO allied country over it. There are much bigger issues at stake.

 

The thing is we can all be sympathetic to their plight. We can believe that they should have that right in Germany. But, Germany is a sovereign nation and not an oppressive one by any stretch of the imagination. What we think has very little bearing and as the saying goes, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." So, it goes both ways. How happy would we be if Germany used international pressure to try to get the US to revoke homeschooling rights because they believe it's wrong? I would imagine we'd be pretty furious.

 

The German people need to do the work to legalize it. We need to stay out of it.

 

Faith

[Jane Elliot]

Nobody has to "turn their children over to the government" - they would have been perfectly free to choose an independent school or a religious school. We have those in Germany.

 

Nobody should be required to turn their children over to anyone at all. In my mind, the requirement to have them in school, any school, is a violation of basic parental rights.

[Corraleno]

You don't know all the details of how they ended up here.

 

Actually, according to the NYT article, HSLDA were not having any luck defending individual families in Germany, and they admit that THEY were the ones who thought of using the "asylum" approach, before they ever met the Romeikes. The Romeikes say that they pulled their kids out due to bullying (not "anti-Christian" propaganda). HSLDA offered to bring them to the US, and HSDLA are the ones who concocted the "religious persecution" angle. HSLDA admit that the reason they took the case was in the hope that it would embarrass Germany into changing their laws.

 

This is not a case of some poor homeschooling family fleeing for their lives, this is a case of a US political organization going out of their way to find a family they could use as pawns in an attempt to prevent another democratically elected goverment from enforcing laws that are supported by the majority of its people.

 

I wish some German lawyers would come over here and persuade a bunch of teens whose parents use corporal punishment to flee to Germany and seek asylum for human rights violations (since physical punishment is illegal in Germany).

 

Or maybe I should flee to Germany and ask for asylum from crappy public schools and Monsanto-poisoned food. If people point out that I had alternatives, like homeschooling and buying organic, I'll just say that I didn't like the alternatives and I'd prefer asylum. :001_rolleyes:

 

Jackie

[regentrude]

If Germans want to gain the right to homeschool, they need to do it the same way it was done here. They have a representative government and due process. They can organize the citizenry, get the grass roots movement going, and start the petitions. They can go to the capitol and speak with their duly elected officials, they can take to the airways, and they can hire attorneys. That is how it was done here. They will be better for it. The vast majority of Germans do not support homeschooling as a parental right, therefore, a grassroots movement needs to take to the streets to help people see whatever evidence they would like to present and work to change their minds. That's how democracies work....

 

 

We can believe that they should have that right in Germany. But, Germany is a sovereign nation and not an oppressive one by any stretch of the imagination. What we think has very little bearing and as the saying goes, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." So, it goes both ways. How happy would we be if Germany used international pressure to try to get the US to revoke homeschooling rights because they believe it's wrong? I would imagine we'd be pretty furious.

 

The German people need to do the work to legalize it. We need to stay out of it.

 

Very eloquently said, Faith.

And the bolded emphasis is mine.

 

The HSLDA is pushing their agenda on the back of, and to the detriment of, the people who want to legalize homeschooling in Germany. They care about their political power in the US, not about the plight of homeschoolers elsewhere - because if they did, they would realize that their actions are the best way to alienate every German person who is on the fence about homeschooling and to convince him that homeschooling is a really bad idea if it causes these kinds of ideologies to become widespread.

 

Nobody in Germany can take a claim that public schools teach witchcraft seriously; a family that claims such a thing is considered nuts. And letting people with such notions that generally are considered as crazy isolate their children and indoctrinate them in their ideas is viewed as dangerous, neglectful and certainly not something that should be permitted.

 

The homeschool movement in Germany needs moderate homeschoolers with whom the people can identify; not unschoolers or people whose religious views are so far removed from main stream religious convictions of people in the country.

[Hannah]

I just think all the questions and suggestions you all are making are about as ridiculous as suggesting they are ridiculous. You don't know all the details of how they ended up here. There is much more going on and it's not just a matter of "suck it up and abide by the law."

 

Unfortunately all we have to go on are the articles available on the internet. And based on the facts at hand, it does seem that there is political posturing by the HSLDA and that the family may have had other options than seeking US asylum.

 

If you are in a position where yot know the real facts, please share them.

[Caroline]

Thank you, Faith. I loved all of what you wrote, but this part really is what the whole thing is about.

 

 

 

This is the crux of the matter. Nobody cares a fig about them moving here. This is America, we have a path for regular immigration and so follow it, move here, and homeschool your kids if that's what you want to do. The frustration and anger comes from claiming refugee status and attempting to take away six or seven of those precious few asylum spots from people who are truly in danger who cannot wait to come here through regular channels and will suffer untold horrors if their petition is rejected because the quote is filled.

 

Truthfully, hey, move to Tennessee and homeschool, that's great! Do it right. Don't come over here making unsubstantiated claims about your democratic government that 1/4th of the world's population would give their right arm to live under and take away someone else's chance to escape the true horror they live with. Follow the appropriate and prescribed path for immigration and since they had perfectly acceptable options while waiting for work or residency visas, they should have exercised them. Honestly, it boggles my imagination. Burmese, Butanese, Iraqi refugees fighting for their very lives, and we would consider NOT being able to homeschool as a greater problem.

 

 

Faith

[Joan in GE]

Could you please provide me with a source of this claim, preferably an original German one? I highly doubt that a law can be made that penalizes a parent for thinking.

 

You are right that they cannot 'read' your mind. But if you say that you are thinking about leaving the country if you are not given an exemption from school attendance for your children, then they can use sections 1) and 3) of the following law which make clear that 'school attendance' is in the best interest of the child and therefore non-attendance is considered to be endangering the child and if the parents don't want to avoid this 'danger', then the court will have to take measures to avert that danger and do either partial or complete removal of child custody from the parents.

 

Joan

 

German Civil Code

Section 1666

Court measures in the case of endangerment of the best interests of the child

 

(1)Where the physical, mental or psychological best interests of the

child or its property are endangered and the parents do not wish or

are not able to avert the danger, the family court must take the

measures necessary to avert the danger.

 

(2)In general it is to be presumed that the property of the child is

endangered if the person with care for the property of the child

violates his maintenance obligation towards the child or his duties

connected with the care for the property of the child or fails to

comply with orders of the court that relate to the care for the

property of the child.

 

(3)The court measures in accordance with subsection (1) include in particular

 

1. instructions to seek public assistance, such as benefits of child

and youth welfare and healthcare,

 

2. instructions to ensure that the obligation to attend school is

complied with,

 

3. prohibitions to use the family home or another dwelling

temporarily or for an indefinite period, to be within a certain radius

of the home or to visit certain other places where the child regularly

spends time,

 

4. prohibitions to establish contact with the child or to bring about

a meeting with the child,

 

5. substitution of declarations of the person with parental custody,

 

6. part or complete removal of parental custody.

 

(4)In matters of care for the person of the child, the court may also

undertake measures with effect against a third party.

[rdj2027]

Hannah,

 

it also seems that there is avery limited number of articles available. I read through I don't know how many links last night and in essence it is the same two or three articles over and over again, just slightly paraphrased by different papers or organizations.

What I did come across in an interview with Mr. Romeike though was his statement that not only did he and his wife not wish their children to have any sex ed at all, he also did not agree with the textbook his oldest daughter was using and that it contributed to his decision to homeschool. According to the articles, he pulled out his children in 2006 when the oldest was 8. She would have been in third grade, her two brothers would have been obviously in 2nd grade and below.

 

Granted, it has been a while, but we did not have sex ed in 3rd grade. We talked about the anatomical difference between boys and girls in 4th. Our oldest attended 3rd grade in Germany in 2003 he also did not have sex ed and anatomy wasn't actually taught until 5th.

 

The more I read about this case, the odder it becomes and the more I think there is much that isn't known which makes it rather hard to really discuss the merits of it.

 

For all it's worth, they had another child here in the US. He teaches piano. How do you support a family of 8 including health care on the income of a piano teacher? Maybe they make more than I think but it strikes me as noticeable.

[regentrude]

Moving around Europe is not 'generally' the same thing as moving around the US. Yes you have some people doing it, but the more children you have and the more specialized your field, the harder it would be.

 

People I knew who were able to do it, basically did illegal things in relation to funding - getting their child subsidies from Germany for example, even though they weren't living there......It is not as easy as people think, in ways that the average American would have trouble understanding.

 

 

As somebody who has done both, I can tell you that moving within the EU is SO MUCH easier than it is to get permission to legally immigrate into the US - for normal people, who do not have the backing and financial support of a large organization.

To come to the US as a German, first you need a job with a company that is willing to sponsor an H1-B visa. That can take 100 or more job applications, and you must be in a field where there is a shortage of qualified employees in the US. So, that greatly limits the range of people who even stand a chance. A piano teacher would not qualify under any normal immigration quota.

Once you are there, you can apply for legal residency. It took us four years and $10,000 to become permanent legal residents (not citizens!).

 

Contrary to that, when we moved to England, we packed our car and drove. We did have a job lined up - but the point is that you don't have to; you don't have to be of any particular profession, you don't have to have an advanced degree ; any EU citizen can work in any EU country.

 

The fact that the landlord wants advance rent is quite normal; that could happen even if you moved within the same city.

[Corraleno]

Nobody in Germany can take a claim that public schools teach witchcraft seriously; a family that claims such a thing is considered nuts. And letting people with such notions that generally are considered as crazy isolate their children and indoctrinate them in their ideas is viewed as dangerous, neglectful and certainly not something that should be permitted.

 

And the great irony here is that the Romeikes don't even seem to believe that! They actually pulled their kids for bullying reasons, but that doesn't fit with HSDLA's agenda, so they have to make up reasons why German schools are "anti-Christian" — no wonder their answers were so vague and unconvincing. Germans might actually be more sympathetic to a "normal" piano teacher who wants to homeschool his kids to avoid bullying, rather than someone who is being portrayed as a religious fundamentalist trying to avoid "witchcraft" in school, so HSDLA is clearly hurting the real cause of homeschooling in Germany while increasing the outrage and fear in their political — and financial — base in the US. Which, of course, is their real goal.

 

Jackie

[Joan in GE]

As somebody who has done both, I can tell you that moving within the EU is SO MUCH easier than it is to get permission to legally immigrate into the US - for normal people, who do not have the backing and financial support of a large organization.

To come to the US as a German, first you need a job with a company that is willing to sponsor an H1-B

 

Actually regentrude, I wasn't trying to compare 'moving in the EU to moving 'to' the US'.

 

I was comparing moving "within" the EU to moving "within" the US. And of this, I am sure that it is easier to move within the US than within Europe. There are language, education, and culture issues that simply do not apply in the US.

 

I was not trying to discuss asylum, applying to move to the US or anything on those lines.

 

Joan

[regentrude]

You are right that they cannot 'read' your mind. But if you say that you are thinking about leaving the country if you are not given an exemption from school attendance for your children, then they can use sections 1) and 3) of the following law which make clear that 'school attendance' is in the best interest of the child and therefore non-attendance is considered to be endangering the child and if the parents don't want to avoid this 'danger', then the court will have to take measures to avert that danger and do either partial or complete removal of child custody from the parents.

 

Granted.

I question the wisdom of parents who try to pressure the German legal system into being granted an exemption from established law by threatening to leave the country if they are not being allowed to engage in an illegal activity.

Anybody who thinks this could possibly work and would accomplish anything is delusional.

And I can not imagine any government would agree to let somebody do a thing that is against the law because they have threatened to otherwise leave the country.

 

If a parent really wants to leave because of homeschooling and was not interested in a publicity stunt, they would simply leave, period. Without making a big public fuss and drawing attention to themselves.

[Joan in GE]

 

Granted.

I question the wisdom of parents who try to pressure the German legal system into being granted an exemption from established law by threatening to leave the country if they are not being allowed to engage in an illegal activity.

Anybody who thinks this could possibly work and would accomplish anything is delusional.

And I can not imagine any government would agree to let somebody do a thing that is against the law because they have threatened to otherwise leave the country.

 

If a parent really wants to leave because of homeschooling and was not interested in a publicity stunt, they would simply leave, period. Without making a big public fuss and drawing attention to themselves.

 

Yes, but there are parents who have done it quietly only to be chased down...

[regentrude]

Actually regentrude, I wasn't trying to compare 'moving in the EU to moving 'to' the US'.

 

I was comparing moving "within" the EU to moving "within" the US. And of this, I am sure that it is easier to move within the US than within Europe. There are language, education, and culture issues that simply do not apply in the US.

 

Actually, I still do not think this is true. If you move from Germany to Austria, for example, there would be no language barrier. The cultural differences between Austria and Germany are less significant than the cultural differences I have encountered within the US, between, for example, Southern CA and rural MO.

[regentrude]

Yes, but there are parents who have done it quietly only to be chased down...

 

How would the German government know that I am living in England and am homeschooling my child instead of sending her to a school?

They certainly do not keep tabs on every citizen who has left the country.

And what does "chased down" mean? They clearly do not have jurisdiction; if I lived in the UK, there is nothing they could do to me.

[regentrude]

And the great irony here is that the Romeikes don't even seem to believe that! They actually pulled their kids for bullying reasons, but that doesn't fit with HSDLA's agenda, so they have to make up reasons why German schools are "anti-Christian" — no wonder their answers were so vague and unconvincing. Germans might actually be more sympathetic to a "normal" piano teacher who wants to homeschool his kids to avoid bullying, rather than someone who is being portrayed as a religious fundamentalist trying to avoid "witchcraft" in school, so HSDLA is clearly hurting the real cause of homeschooling in Germany while increasing the outrage and fear in their political — and financial — base in the US. Which, of course, is their real goal.

 

The bolded- definitely!

I can imagine the German public being sympathetic to people who homeschool because of bullying, because their child has special needs or behavioral problems or is highly gifted and can not receive and adequate education in school - anything but religious motivations or being against the "institution" school.

 

I believe that the only way to get homeschooling legal in Germany is to educate people about homeschooling. I have been writing on German online forums and reported about our experiences with homeschooling; aside from some general hostility by some people who have preconceived notions, I have received many questions, because nobody has any idea how homeschooling works in practice. There have been media reports and TV shows, but they only portray those families that are considered out on the fringe, cementing the notion that homeschoolers are crazy. The people need to hear from "normal" people who homeschool, how they solve the problems of curricula, teacher qualifications, socialization - all VERY valid questions I had myself before I started.

First, enough people need to see that it is feasible and does not lead to a substandard education - then the laws can change. homescholing being pushed as a "human right" by fringe groups will not accomplish anything in Germany, because of the underlying cultural makeup.

[Joan in GE]

Actually, I still do not think this is true. If you move from Germany to Austria, for example, there would be no language barrier. The cultural differences between Austria and Germany are less significant than the cultural differences I have encountered within the US, between, for example, Southern CA and rural MO.

 

regentrude - lets not keep arguing semantics here....

 

I said - within Europe compared to within the US.

 

Ok you found a case/cases where that might not be true. But I was talking about the whole country vs the whole EU. I think that on the whole - this is true and your little isolated examples cannot convince me that globally what I am saying is not true.

 

BTW - just because homeschooling is legal in Austria does not mean it is easy. Children at home have to follow the exact same program as children in school and then get tested on that at the end of the year. You have no freedom. It is not like doing the Iowa Tests which test general knowledge. I wouldn't want to move to Austria even if I spoke German.

 

 

How would the German government know that I am living in England and am homeschooling my child instead of sending her to a school?

They certainly do not keep tabs on every citizen who has left the country.

And what does "chased down" mean? They clearly do not have jurisdiction; if I lived in the UK, there is nothing they could do to me.

 

regentrude - they have taken children out of France and Austria and brought them back home to Germany...I don't know about other countries. But that is what I said before....Please show me where I said they are keeping track of every person who leaves Germany?

 

Joan

[Orthodox6]

Those who speak/read English reasonably well could come to this website. Just about any possible worldview is represented here, and the great majority (if not all) of the members take education of their children very seriously.

 

(I would hate to see what BabelFish would do to some of our posts!)

 

 

The bolded- definitely!

I can imagine the German public being sympathetic to people who homeschool because of bullying, because their child has special needs or behavioral problems or is highly gifted and can not receive and adequate education in school - anything but religious motivations or being against the "institution" school.

 

I believe that the only way to get homeschooling legal in Germany is to educate people about homeschooling. I have been writing on German online forums and reported about our experiences with homeschooling; aside from some general hostility by some people who have preconceived notions, I have received many questions, because nobody has any idea how homeschooling works in practice. There have been media reports and TV shows, but they only portray those families that are considered out on the fringe, cementing the notion that homeschoolers are crazy. The people need to hear from "normal" people who homeschool, how they solve the problems of curricula, teacher qualifications, socialization - all VERY valid questions I had myself before I started.

First, enough people need to see that it is feasible and does not lead to a substandard education - then the laws can change. homescholing being pushed as a "human right" by fringe groups will not accomplish anything in Germany, because of the underlying cultural makeup.

 

[jhschool]

Nobody in Germany can take a claim that public schools teach witchcraft seriously; a family that claims such a thing is considered nuts. And letting people with such notions that generally are considered as crazy isolate their children and indoctrinate them in their ideas is viewed as dangerous, neglectful and certainly not something that should be permitted.

The homeschool movement in Germany needs moderate homeschoolers with whom the people can identify; not unschoolers or people whose religious views are so far removed from main stream religious convictions of people in the country.

 

 

But part of a free society is believing what you want. If other people consider you nuts

or crazy, that should not matter. And who should judge who is crazy and who is not?

Parents should be able to indoctrinate their children in any ideas they want, without the rest

of society thinking it is dangerous or neglectful (as long as they are not being hurt

or planning to hurt others). In a free society, of course. I think Germany should be a free

society. I think the whole world should be a free society.

 

I don't think homeschoolers all have be moderate. (Although I consider myself moderate--I think).

I think it's OK for homeschoolers to have religious views different from mainstream religious convictions. Why not? Your life is your own, as long as you are not hurting the children

or hurting other people.

 

I have LDS friends, Wiccan friends, Jewish friends, Lutherans, Episcopalians (am I forgetting

any?), oh, Atheist friends, Catholic friends, Southern Baptist (great friends!)

and 7th-Day Adventist (best friends! I am not 7thDA) Some of these

friends consider the others' religious views crazy. They are all homeschoolers. Some of

them are Unschoolers. I think it is great

that everyone can have their own religious and educational views. Why not? They don't

hurt me, and--let me think--I am going down the list--all these kids are *lovely*. Not

perfect, but all of them will be great people when they grow up. I actually can't wait to

see them all succeed. They are no better or worse than any of our schooled friends.

 

And who decides which religious viewpoints should be tolerated and which shouldn't? If

the government decides, then it is not a free society.

 

I have a friend with a very good kid. They are Catholic. She honestly believes

Harry Potter's spells are

real and that kids shouldn't read Harry Potter. I don't like Harry Potter, but I think she's crazy.

(Thank Goodness for the anonymity of the internet). (I do definitely consider her my friend--she

is a responsible, good human being, with her heart in the right place,

and she homeschools as best as she can.) But I uphold her right to teach her son whatever she

believes, no matter how crazy I think she is. (Note: most of my other Catholic friends do not believe this!)

 

But I am getting distracted. I think parents over the whole world should be free

to educate their children as they see fit, and teach them whatever religion they want,

without any government interference or regulation. (Insert usual physical abuse disclaimers here.)

I consider myself blessed that I am witness to so many different homeschooling families of different

backgrounds, all doing their best for their children, all supporting each other, often working

together, in co-ops, in social groups, on forums. I consider myself blessed that I have this

forum, where we can all speak our mind freely, where we can all differ in our opinions, but where

our opinions still count and can still be hear (or read). I wish everyone in the world had my

freedoms.

 

Off my soapbox now. And back to the real world...

 

Final Note:

I love you all. This forum means so much to me (and yes, I do have a life! :)

)

And Regentrude, I mean no disrespect. I always appreciate all your

answers and help on these forums. I think you are very cool and I wish I had your

energy and intelligence. I hope I am not starting bickers with anyone here because I would be upset.

[chiguirre]

 

regentrude - they have taken children out of France and Austria and brought them back home to Germany...I don't know about other countries.

Joan

 

 

Hi Joan,

 

Could you post links to those cases? Are you sure there are no parental custody issues involved?

 

Thanks!

[KnitWit]

FaithManor, you said what I have struggled to put to words since I first started reading this thread.

 

I mean no offense, but I think that HSLDA has become such a golden calf here that people are afraid to speak out against what they are doing. I think this is a huge misstep on their part and comes from thinking more highly of our American selves than we ought. I entirely agree that this is none of America's business and I hope it is not something that, in the long run, ends up adversely affecting our rights to continue to homeschool here in our country.

[rdj2027]

jh,

 

I cannot follow your idea that everybody should be free to believe anything they want. As a German citizen I am rather sensitive to the idea that everybody should be able to believe anything they want. You work with the assumptions that people are basically good and will use their beliefs in at least some productive manner.

 

Apart from that, even though I homeschool it is not my first choice of education. If you want everybody to feel free to believe anything then you need to also respect the belief b of the majority of the German people that homeschooling is not acceptable.

[regentrude]

regentrude - they have taken children out of France and Austria and brought them back home to Germany...I don't know about other countries. But that is what I said before....Please show me where I said they are keeping track of every person who leaves Germany?

 

Could you give some more information? I know you did not say they keep track of everybody; I was merely wondering how the authorities could possibly know about somebody homeschooling in another country if the family simply moved there.

I am also curious to know how they can "take children out of other countries if both custodial parents reside there legally , unless there is a custodial dispute and one parent involves the authorities.