Have we talked about this? German Homeschooling Family Seeks Asylum in US

[LucyStoner]

Germany isn't claiming that children need to be in school to be safe. This isn't a safety issue.

 

And conflating different ways to raise and educate one's children with child abuse and murder. :svengo:

 

Um, you're the one placing HOMESCHOOLING on the same plane as human rights violations such as torture, death and violence. The asylum law isn't a free entry because you don't LIKE the laws of your nation. It was written to allow immigration of people who would otherwise be unable to escape nearly certain death or torture. Asylum has been denied to people who were deported and died or were tortured as a result. Giving a spot to someone for disagreement with laws or circumstances which fall below the purpose of the law is unacceptable. We want Germany to respect US custody laws, desertion laws and criminal extradition laws. We owe them the same courtesy.

[Mimm]

I agree Faithr. I have sympathy for them. I can't stand HSLDA, but yeah.

 

This is where I land on this. Yes, I think parents should be allowed to homeschool their children and I believe it's wrong for the German government to tell them they can't. But I can't see HLSDA being able to do anything but make the situation worse. And if they can so easily go to the UK, then I fail to see what they're doing here.

[LucyStoner]

I completely disagree with this assumption. It was exactly these two groups of people who changed things in the US for homeschoolers. We wouldn't HAVE a spectrum without the religious fundamentalists and unschoolers who insisted on their basic rights as parents. It's always the outliers that change things. You don't get a middle ground without them.

 

And that's why Malcolm X and his initial idea of separatism was ultimately so much more effective than Martin Luther King as an information leader in the civil rights movement?

 

People with strong convictions who aren't on hard line fringes, can and do, very much make change happen.

[elegantlion]

That's not really possible. Because the courts in the US are increasingly using the laws of other nations to interpret our laws, a developed country that legislates persecution against a homeschool family (and, IMO, crippling fines and taking people's kids for homeschooling IS persecution) presents a danger to the rights of homeschoolers in this country. It is entirely forseeable that a judge could take a homeschool case and use Germanfamily v Germangov as part of their justification to say that parents do not have the right to homeschool their children.

 

If you want groups like HSLDA to stay out of German politics, you need to lobby your representatives to put better judicial appointees in place.

 

 

(see below)

 

No, that really isn't likely. Please consider that US laws protecting homeschooling were developed while German law still banned it.

 

 

 

The two are not remotely connected.

 

 

What she said.

3. The damage this is doing to the movement that tries to legalize homeschooling in Germany. The German families that are willing to break the law and go public fall into two extremes: religious fundamentalists who want to shield their children from teachings about human reproduction, from PE, from literature about witches - and extreme unschoolers who do not believe in any structured schooling. Those poster families are exactly what the German majority fears homeschoolers are, and the public can not relate to either side. What the movement desperately needs are homeschoolers that are more in the middle of the spectrum. the families who enjoy the publicity now just cement every stereotype that causes homeschooling to be illegal.

 

 

Agree with the above

 

 

You're telling Regentrude, who is German, that you know better than she does the best way to change things in Germany? :confused1:

 

You know, in a lot of other countries (in fact, I'd say in most European countries), religious fundamentalists are considered rather "out there" and not people to be admired or even accommodated. Having religious fundamentalists championing homeschooling is more likely to make the rest of the population think that the anti-homeschooling laws are a very good thing.

 

Jackie

 

 

Isn't there a Willy Wonka meme in all of this? Fascinating, do go on, tell the native German how things should be run in her country.

 

 

Sounds like this family had options and it's turned into showboating. Yeah, that sounds like HSLDA trying to dig into place they don't belong.

[Mrs Mungo]

HSLDA seems to be taking cases that establish homeschooling as a federal religious right within the US. That's what this is really about.

 

Some of the stories (like the one in CS Monitor) have noted that homeschool is legal elsewhere in the EU like Italy and France. The number of political refugees that the US accepts each year is limited. You really think someone attempting to escape death should get in line behind a family that has plenty of other options?

[PachiSusan]

I find it fascinating that in 3 different homeschooling environments, three different prevailing opinions win out. This thread went so differently from my FB friends and totally different from my Catholic Homeschooling forum.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Truly, the facts should be made known. The facts should change everything concerning America's sympathy and/or response! I am sure most of HSLDA's supporters do not know this information.

 

1. They can legally and easily move within the EU to a nation where homeschooling is legal and welcomed.

 

2. Private religious education does exist in their native land. There are already alternatives to the secular, state-run school.

 

Both facts taken together say to me that this is none of our business. This is not an American crisis.

[regentrude]

I completely disagree with this assumption. It was exactly these two groups of people who changed things in the US for homeschoolers. We wouldn't HAVE a spectrum without the religious fundamentalists and unschoolers who insisted on their basic rights as parents. It's always the outliers that change things. You don't get a middle ground without them.

 

 

But considering German culture and history, which is fundamentally different from the US, you will NOT get a consensus to legalize homeschooling in Germany WITH these two groups.

 

Oh, and before I forget: the family does not even have to move to an English speaking country at all. they could simply move a few hundred miles into Austria where they would be allowed to homeschool in their native German!

 

I can not help suspecting that this family simply wants to immigrate to the US, but does not possess any qualification that allows them to do so - they are playing the homeschooling-asylum-seeker card as an excuse to bypass long lines of asylum seekers with more pressing concerns and petitioners for legal immigration who have things to contribute that would qualify them for a regular work visa. As an immigrant to the US who had to go to great lengths to get legal status, I find this appalling.

[Faithr]

Well, Malcolm X was not advocating the same kind of change as Dr. King, was he? Personally I think the ones on the fringe start something that then works its way into the center over time. So I think we need both! The extremes to bring the issue up and excite interest and then the center to balance and modify in a practical way.

 

I do think though that the problem is the ambiguous definition of persecution. It can be read more broadly or more narrowly by different judges. The ruling judge found that an identifiable group was being persecuted and therefore as homeschoolers they could seek asylum. If you see homeschoolers as a movement that is being repressed in Germany and if you read the law, that's exactly right. But those who read persecution narrowly, as in only when in danger of physical harm or death , object to this broader reading. I really don't know how I personally see this. I am still working it out, but I think it troubles me to see people scoffing at the parents' insistence on being able to homeschool or flee. I can see all sorts of situation that would make me desparate to homeschool but if I do, I might have my children taken away. I am so very, very grateful that i can do this here! I don't know why they chose to come to the U.S. perhaps because they felt safer here.

 

Again, to me it seems that the reporting is skewed and some facts have been left out. So it is hard to know.

[Faithr]

 

 

But considering German culture and history, which is fundamentally different from the US, you will NOT get a consensus to legalize homeschooling in Germany WITH these two groups.

 

Oh, and before I forget: the family does not even have to move to an English speaking country at all. they could simply move a few hundred miles into Austria where they would be allowed to homeschool in their native German!

 

I can not help suspecting that this family simply wants to immigrate to the US, but does not possess any qualification that allows them to do so - they are playing the homeschooling-asylum-seeker card as an excuse to bypass long lines of asylum seekers with more pressing concerns and petitioners for legal immigration who have things to contribute that would qualify them for a regular work visa. As an immigrant to the US who had to go to great lengths to get legal status, I find this appalling.

 

I don't think there are many homeschoolers there in Austria. For two summers we've had Austrian exchange students. Neither one had ever heard of homeschooling and thought it was illegal in their country. They went and looked it up and were surprised to find it so.

[FaithManor]

But considering German culture and history, which is fundamentally different from the US, you will NOT get a consensus to legalize homeschooling in Germany WITH these two groups.

 

Oh, and before I forget: the family does not even have to move to an English speaking country at all. they could simply move a few hundred miles into Austria where they would be allowed to homeschool in their native German!

 

I can not help suspecting that this family simply wants to immigrate to the US, but does not possess any qualification that allows them to do so - they are playing the homeschooling-asylum-seeker card as an excuse to bypass long lines of asylum seekers with more pressing concerns and petitioners for legal immigration who have things to contribute that would qualify them for a regular work visa. As an immigrant to the US who had to go to great lengths to get legal status, I find this appalling.

 

 

:grouphug: Regentrude, this is exactly how I feel. I cannot wrap my brain around asylum for this issue. I cannot imagine how those who face torture and death if shipped back to their home countries, must feel about this. Actually, as an American, I'm quite embarassed and I would be heart broken if someone who had a legitimate case ended up being murdered at the hands of despots because they couldn't get a hearing or because, oops, the last spot is gone because this family took it.

 

Faith

[Mrs Mungo]

They were claiming religious persecution when religious schools exist within Germany.

 

I am still working it out, but I think it troubles me to see people scoffing at the parents' insistence on being able to homeschool or flee. I can see all sorts of situation that would make me desparate to homeschool but if I do, I might have my children taken away. I am so very, very grateful that i can do this here! I don't know why they chose to come to the U.S. perhaps because they felt safer here.

 

I really don't know what you mean here. I don't see anyone here scoffing at this family. Asylum is intended for people in desperate situations with no other options. This family was not threatened with having their kids removed, they were just worried they would be. They have other places to go within the EU in which homeschooling is legal. Their situation is not dire, not desperate, not life threatening, and they have options. They can flee to another EU country without fighting a court battle. It begs the question of why they are really going this route. If they just want to immigrate to the US, then they should do it in the normal manner.

[Mrs Mungo]

EU countries where homeschooling is legal:

 

Austria

Belgium

Czech Republic

Denmark

Finland

France

Hungary

Ireland

Italy

Norway

Poland

Portugal

Slovenia

 

Homeschooling is also legal is Switzerland (much of which speaks German), although they are not members of the EU.

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

I don't think there are many homeschoolers there in Austria. For two summers we've had Austrian exchange students. Neither one had ever heard of homeschooling and thought it was illegal in their country. They went and looked it up and were surprised to find it so.

 

 

Yes it is rare; only about 0.2% of students are home schooled in Austria at some point.

 

But I a not surprised that the Austrian students were not aware of this; even living in rural MO which is crawling with homeschoolers, I had never met a real life homeschooler before we decided to homeschool ourselves.

[regentrude]

Homeschooling is also legal is Switzerland (much of which speaks German), although they are not members of the EU.

 

 

Nevertheless, it is very easy for German citizens to become legal Swiss residents.

 

But then, the German spoken in Switzerland is virtually unintelligible to a German German ;-)

[Mrs Mungo]

Nevertheless, it is very easy for German citizens to become legal Swiss residents.

 

I do not doubt it.

 

But then, the German spoken in Switzerland is virtually unintelligible to a German German ;-)

 

 

Ha, probably about like English in PA/Texas? ;) :D

[MooCow]

Truly, the facts should be made known. The facts should change everything concerning America's sympathy and/or response! I am sure most of HSLDA's supporters do not know this information.

 

1. They can legally and easily move within the EU to a nation where homeschooling is legal and welcomed.

 

2. Private religious education does exist in their native land. There are already alternatives to the secular, state-run school.

 

Both facts taken together say to me that this is none of our business. This is not an American crisis.

 

 

This thread has been very interesting! I learned quite a bit by reading this thread.

 

The original article I read this a.m. was short on details, and slanted. (surprise :glare: )

I had no idea they could move freely in EU. I *thought* the USA

was their only shot.

[Mergath]

 

Huh? Absolutely not. Germany is much less restrictive with respect to "safety" - there are many things families can legally do in Germany that, in the US, would get CPS called: children can stay home alone, walk to school as first graders, use public transit across town in 4th grade, be unsupervised during school recess... Please do not make it seem as if Germany is compulsively imposing restrictions on families for the sake of "safety" - the contrary is true.

 

The mandatory schooling has nothing to do with safety. The society considers compulsory school attendance a measure for promoting cultural understanding and assimilation. People worry about families who want to isolate their children from the mainstream society and consider this undesirable.

 

I should have been clear that I was just talking about the homeschooling issue. I don't know much about the rest Germany's parenting culture, and I suppose I didn't mean "safe" so much as "for the good of the child."

[Mergath]

Germany isn't claiming that children need to be in school to be safe. This isn't a safety issue.

 

And conflating different ways to raise and educate one's children with child abuse and murder. :svengo:

 

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Homeschooling is like murder. :rolleyes: My point was that every government has to draw a line somewhere for what its country's parents can and cannot do to their children because obviously, no country (well, 99% of them :glare: ) aren't going to allow a parent to, say, kill their own child. Some countries have much more restrictive laws regarding parents than others do, but every country has to draw that line somewhere. We can't just say that parents can do whatever they like with their children, no restrictions.

[Laura Corin]

I don't know why they chose to come to the U.S. perhaps because they felt safer here.

 

Again, to me it seems that the reporting is skewed and some facts have been left out. So it is hard to know.

 

Safer battling the US legal system than getting on a train to the UK or Austria? I agree with you - there must be more to this.

 

Laura

[Wheres Toto]

The "more to it" may simply be HSLDA deciding it was good for publicity. I think it was about a year ago I saw the first article about HSLDA "helping" German homeschoolers. This certainly is getting more attention.

[Laura Corin]

Well I do admit that I'd consider asking for asylum if suddenly homeschooling became illegal here. Not so much that I feel so strongly about homeschooling, but I feel so strongly that the education my kids would get around here is that bad.

 

... but not presumably if it became illegal in your state but you could move to the next state over. You wouldn't need to seek political asylum in that case. The EU has completely free movement of people: you can work, study, etc. in any EU country without any extra documentation.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

 

True, but moving isn't THAT straight forward. It's expensive. DH would have to find another job. It sounds easy in theory, but in practice, not so much.

 

I will admit though that it's tempting to list my kid's address with their grandfather because the regs there are so much easier to deal with.

 

But in the case we are talking about, if they can move as far as the US, I can't imagine that it would be so much more difficult to move somewhere within Europe. UNLESS someone here offered them a lot of help.

 

 

I understand that it's inconvenient to move, but to move to the next state (or the next country in the EU) would seem to be the logical first step.

 

Now, it's possible that they are being offered help by a particular organisation in the US. That's fine, but I do agree with the pp that the asylum system exists for people who have no other choice. These people have a choice but have chosen not to make it.

 

And yes, I've moved several times to different countries and we have needed new jobs when we did it. That's just life.

 

Laura

[Mrs Mungo]

The "more to it" may simply be HSLDA deciding it was good for publicity. I think it was about a year ago I saw the first article about HSLDA "helping" German homeschoolers. This certainly is getting more attention.

 

 

That "more to it" is HSLDA wanting federal precedent that homeschooling is a *religious* right.

 

True, but moving isn't THAT straight forward. It's expensive. DH would have to find another job. It sounds easy in theory, but in practice, not so much.

 

I will admit though that it's tempting to list my kid's address with their grandfather because the regs there are so much easier to deal with.

 

But in the case we are talking about, if they can move as far as the US, I can't imagine that it would be so much more difficult to move somewhere within Europe. UNLESS someone here offered them a lot of help.

 

 

It's easier to move within Europe or the US than for European citizens to request asylum in the US or for US citizens to ask for asylum in Australia or somewhere.

[Laura Corin]

And another possibility, is that while homeschooling might be legal in other EU countries, do people have the same amount of support, organizations, etc. as in the US? I have only lived in 2 states in the US since homeschooling, but I've had no trouble connecting with other homeschoolers. And that's even in a state where homeschooling is relatively annoying.

 

Maybe they were also attracted to that.

 

 

That's all fine, but we are talking about the asylum system here, which exists to help people in completely dire circumstances, not those who would like a nearby park day.

 

Laura

[regentrude]

And another possibility, is that while homeschooling might be legal in other EU countries, do people have the same amount of support, organizations, etc. as in the US? I have only lived in 2 states in the US since homeschooling, but I've had no trouble connecting with other homeschoolers. And that's even in a state where homeschooling is relatively annoying.

 

Maybe they were also attracted to that.

 

 

Not having a lot of support organizations is not grounds for asylum.

[Mrs Mungo]

 

Not having a lot of support organizations is not grounds for asylum.

 

And, again, my biggest problem is that there are a limited number of refugees who are grated asylum each year. This family being granted asylum would mean a number of people who might actually be endangered would not be granted asylum.

[Corraleno]

True, but moving isn't THAT straight forward. It's expensive. DH would have to find another job. It sounds easy in theory, but in practice, not so much.

 

But shipping all your belongings across the Atlantic and paying for a stack of plane tickets is a lot more hassle, and a heck of a lot more expensive, than a day of driving in a rented truck. I moved from the US to the UK, then to France, then back to the US. Moving from the UK to France was vastly quicker, easier, and cheaper.

 

It's also a lot easier to find a job in a country where you immediately have the legal right to work, with no permits or paperwork needed, than to go through the asylum system in the US. When EU regulations went into effect there was a huge influx of Eastern European workers into Western Europe. DH's family knew several Polish families who came to the UK, and none of them had any trouble finding work.

 

Of course, if a certain political organization decides to sponsor you, so they can use your case to scare Americans into donating more money, then maybe all the extra hassle would make sense...

 

Jackie

[regentrude]

Of course, if a certain political organization decides to sponsor you, so they can use your case to scare Americans into donating more money, then maybe all the extra hassle would make sense...

 

In fact, Mrs Romeike herself reports that it was the organization that contacted them and suggested they should come to the US - not vice versa.

 

ETA: this is not the first case of the organization getting involved in a German family.

[Corraleno]

And another possibility, is that while homeschooling might be legal in other EU countries, do people have the same amount of support, organizations, etc. as in the US? I have only lived in 2 states in the US since homeschooling, but I've had no trouble connecting with other homeschoolers. And that's even in a state where homeschooling is relatively annoying.

 

Maybe they were also attracted to that.

There are homeschooling support organizations in the UK. There are fewer in France, because it's less common there, but even in the tiny rural hamlet I lived in, there was another homeschooling family nearby.

 

Jackie

[Corraleno]

In fact, Mrs Romeike herself reports that it was the organization that contacted them and suggested they should come to the US - not vice versa.

 

 

I really feel sorry for their kids — they're being used as pawns in HSLDA's political game. Their lives have already been greatly disrupted, and they will be disrupted again when they're sent back to Europe. If HSLDA was really concerned with helping this family, they could have put them in contact with a homeschooling organization in another European country and helped them get settled there. I think it's despicable that they're using this family this way.

 

Jackie

[rdj2027]

I remember this case from an earlier time and wish I could remember the original article I read in a German paper. They also refused to pay income tax and were fined for income tax evasion. My inkling is that they decided then to emigrate to the US rather than another European country. Sending their children to a religious private school, something they could have done in Germany, also would not have dealt with that issue.

 

What I found odd at the time was why they were granted asylum in the US with outstanding tax bills because when I immigrated I had to sign I statement that I had no tax liabilities in my home country so my inkling is that somebody with deep pockets lobbied on their behalf and made the homeschooling a point rather than the tax evasion.

While homeschooling in Germany is mostly illegal (it actually is legal for certain groups, mainly those who frequently move and their children's continued education cannot be guaranteed through the system. As a musician/artist he was eligible for that exemption. The same exemption can be made for medically fragile children.), there are many private schools of any kind and many of them are much more affordable than in the US. The reason religion does not fall into that area is because you are free to teach your children anything you want at home. Ironically religion class is mandatory in many schools up to 8th grade unless you ask for an exemption based on religious reasons which almost always granted. In that case the children simply go to another classroom or in the upper grades have a free period.

 

I myself went to a private Catholic school for a grand total of $30 tuition in the 80'ies. My cousin's sons attended a Waldorf school (the younger one graduated last year) and their tuition was about $100 per month for the family. Our oldest is attending a public school that caters to highly gifted students which is free of charge. The reason I homeschool in the US is because I have none of the choices I would have if we were still in Germany; schools here (my husband is on active duty, we have been through many states and districts) simply have not provided an appropriate education for my children on a number of levels.

 

Never mind the run-on sentences :-)

[Corraleno]

I remember this case from an earlier time and wish I could remember the original article I read in a German paper. They also refused to pay income tax and were fined for income tax evasion. My inkling is that they decided then to emigrate to the US rather than another European country. Sending their children to a religious private school, something they could have done in Germany, also would not have dealt with that issue.

 

 

So it seems that HSLDA and these parents are using each other. :glare:

Now I feel even more sorry for their kids.

 

Jackie

[Faithr]

They were claiming religious persecution when religious schools exist within Germany.

 

I understand what you are saying. And as the asylum numbers are limited ( though I believe this is political and can be enlarged in situations), I can see how it could be unjust. But can't you make the same argument pretty much anytime anybody seeks asylum? Can't you always ask why didn't they go to a different country to seek it! Some other country would have made more sense? People come here from all over the world. I rently met a woman who had fled her country in Africa. ( I am ashamed to say I can't remember which one). Surely she could have fled to Europe more easily.

 

But frankly, maybe because my father was a judge, I tend to give weight to the one who heard the evidence, the one whose career is dealing with these sorts of cases every day. The judge looked the law and looked at the family and decided to grant asylum. And maybe also because of my upbringing, I know newspapers often get things, oversimplify, slant things. I really don't like the Hslda. I do agree they have their own agenda so that raises a red flag, but I also am in sympathy with the family. I don't have a religious choice for my kids. They all have/had LEarning disabilities. I have thought about putting them in school a couple times and both times the private schools said no. They don't work with LD kids. So if I had to put them in schools, it would have to be public and I know that would be very, very hard to deal with. If I did not have the homeschool option, I am not sure what I would do.

 

 

Oops. I mean to type this under your quote.

 

 

I really don't know what you mean here. I don't see anyone here scoffing at this family. Asylum is intended for people in desperate situations with no other options. This family was not threatened with having their kids removed, they were just worried they would be. They have other places to go within the EU in which homeschooling is legal. Their situation is not dire, not desperate, not life threatening, and they have options. They can flee to another EU country without fighting a court battle. It begs the question of why they are really going this route. If they just want to immigrate to the US, then they should do it in the normal manner.

[Laura Corin]

Calvin's take on this:

 

"Come on! It just makes homeschoolers look really dumb if they don't have the nous to get on a train!"

 

Laura

[regentrude]

But frankly, maybe because my father was a judge, I tend to give weight to the one who heard the evidence, the one whose career is dealing with these sorts of cases every day. The judge looked the law and looked at the family and decided to grant asylum.

 

The judge, who says

"the (German) government is attempting to enforce this Nazi-era law against people that it purely seems to detest because of their desire to keep their children out of school."

 

is using cheap polemics and needs to get his facts straight. The law about mandatory schooling predates the Nazis. In individual German states, mandatory public schooling has been prescribed by law since the 17th and 18th century; in 1919 it was introduced into the Weimar constitution for the entire country.

 

Invoking Hitler or Nazis in an argument is bad form and not something I can respect this judge for. (Godwin's law, anybody?)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Does anyone have a good link about the tax evasion issue?

[elizabeth]

 

That's not really possible. Because the courts in the US are increasingly using the laws of other nations to interpret our laws, a developed country that legislates persecution against a homeschool family (and, IMO, crippling fines and taking people's kids for homeschooling IS persecution) presents a danger to the rights of homeschoolers in this country. It is entirely forseeable that a judge could take a homeschool case and use Germanfamily v Germangov as part of their justification to say that parents do not have the right to homeschool their children.

 

If you want groups like HSLDA to stay out of German politics, you need to lobby your representatives to put better judicial appointees in place.

It is not a homeschool case at all that is the point and why HLSDA should not be involved. An immigration lawyer would have refused to take the case based onone fact: this is not where case law and statutory law in the US of A rest their laurels regarding who may seek political asylum. I have no idea what you refer to wherein you claim that the US courts are using the laws of other nations to interpret our law. And I practice law. In the USA. We use legal precedents, called case law and statutory law to conduct relations between states, persons and legal entities such as a corporation. There is however one time befre the courts or the government was created where I can recall the law/legal writings of another government were used to interpret and construct our founding documents. John Locke's writings in the Two Treatises of Government were the backbone and nearly entire structure of our Bill of Rights. They were no more written by a founding father than the man on the moon. They plagarized Locke shamelessly. Locke was English. Ironic eh??

[Kathryn]

This article from 2010 sheds some light on some questions asked in this thread: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/01/us/01homeschool.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Mrs Mungo]

This article is talking about fines, not taxes?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1968099-1,00.html

[regentrude]

Does anyone have a good link about the tax evasion issue?

 

 

I tried searching, both in English and in German, but nothing came up. I do not recall ever hearing anything about the Romeikes owing taxes. They probably were sentenced to fines for not sending their kids to schools, but taxes do not come up in any of the German articles I have seen on the topic.

[rdj2027]

Tibbie,

 

I wish I had kept a link to the article but it was several years back and at the time homeschooling wasn't even on my radar then. I googled Google.de but couldn't find anything about it at all. Like I said, it stuck in my mind because I was specifically asked and had to prove I owed no taxes when I immigrated.

 

Edited: I did not apply for asylum but the whole case simply did/does not make sense to me. He applied for asylum because his family would not qualify for an immigration visa. They came on a tourist visa, stayed and then applied for asylum (I actually have the link to an interview he gave but it is pretty lengthy and all in German, let me know if you are interested in it). He said initially they did not pull out the children for religious reasons but because they were bullied and he himself did not see their religion being the reason for " the persecution". In his opinion it was simply the decision not to send their children to school that caused the following events.

[Mergath]

 

Invoking Hitler or Nazis in an argument is bad form and not something I can respect this judge for. (Godwin's law, anybody?)

 

Yup. Automatic loss.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Thanks to regentrude and rdj2027 for googling in at least two languages! I, for one, am very thankful for this thread. I'm not a member of HSLDA and I've only been following this story peripherally, but I'm glad to finally hear the other side of the story. If I hear people talking about this IRL I'll have something worthwhile to say.

[jhschool]

 

That's not really possible. Because the courts in the US are increasingly using the laws of other nations to interpret our laws, a developed country that legislates persecution against a homeschool family (and, IMO,

 

crippling fines and taking people's kids for homeschooling IS persecution

 

) presents a danger to the rights of homeschoolers in this country. It is entirely forseeable that a judge could take a homeschool case and use Germanfamily v Germangov as part of their justification to say that parents do not have the right to homeschool their children.

 

If you want groups like HSLDA to stay out of German politics, you need to lobby your representatives to put better judicial appointees in place.

 

Bolded is mine; I don't know what places like Pennsylvania do if you don't comply

with their laws. What DO they do? Would they take the kids away for homeschooling

without complying with their requirements? I don't know.

But if they did, that would be persecution.

[Audrey]

I don't feel sorry for the family. I have no sympathy for the case. They had other, easily attainable options. Instead they have allowed themselves to be played as pawns in a propaganda game of witlessness by HSLDA. They jumped at the chance to play up a non-story as religious persecution in order to pander to their base and denote Germany the anti-christian boogeyman out to take over all of christendom.

 

I am continually repulsed by the American insistence that their way is always the better way and insinuations that their laws need to be enforced in every other country that might have a different idea, no matter how relatively benign the differences may be. Moreso, I'm disgusted by the countries that throw open the doors and allow the infiltration. In other words, this is MYOB issue AFAIC.

[jhschool]

I also think it is prosecution even if there wasn't the religious issue. I think the religious

issue is irrelevant.

Even if they were secular homeschoolers who pulled out of secular school, I think

it is prosecution to threaten to take their kids away. They should be allowed to homeschool in

their own country. I think it's horrible.

I think kids should only be removed from a family if there is abuse going on, not

if the family is exercising a human right of educating their own children.

Why should they have to move to the UK? They should be allowed to stay in their

own country and not be persecuted.

Why don't we turn away all the asylum seekers and say, hey, you can move to the UK--

you'll be safe there? We don't want you.

Taking one's kids away is absolutely persecution. What would we call it if that happened to us?

And why shouldn't they seek asylum here? Why shouldn't any persecuted person seek

asylum here, the land of the free?

[sewingmama]

 

 

Bolded is mine; I don't know what places like Pennsylvania do if you don't comply

with their laws. What DO they do? Would they take the kids away for homeschooling

without complying with their requirements? I don't know.

But if they did, that would be persecution.

 

 

I don't agree that it is persecution. German law says you must send your children to school. Homeschooling is not viewed as a viable option so if you keep your children home the law would class it as educational neglect. The children wouldn't be removed "to persecute the homeschoolers" but because they were neglecting their children (whether this is the actual case or not). Even in the USA children can be removed for physical, emotional and yes, even educational neglect. It is NOT persecution - it is the consequence for not obeying the law.

 

Now if it were legal to homeschool in Germany and they were forcing the children to go to school then yes - they might have more claim to persecution.

 

Considering Germany's history I think it unlikely they would be keen to come into the international spotlight with claims made against then for "religious persecution". It's not likely that the claims made have any real truth to them except that the family needed a legitimate reason for claiming asylum and that's the best they could come up with.

[jhschool]

If it were legal to kill different men in some countries I would still call it persecution.

If it were legal to maim girls in some countries I would still call it persecution.

 

 

Just because something is legal in other countries does not make it NOT persecution as

far as we are concerned. The legality in other countries should not make us decide whether

it is or isn't persecution.

 

When it was legal to beat your wife with a certain sized stick it was still wrong, and persecution

as far as I'm concerned.

 

Why should we define our idea of persecution depending on whether a foreign country

makes it legal or not? There are many things they do to their own people in North Korea

which we would definitely call persecution (putting them in concentration camps, torturing

them, maiming and killing them and their families). And it is legal.

 

I cannot imagine anything worse being done to me than having my child taken away.

I would feel like a slave. It is not killing or maiming, but I would call it persecution.

[Melissa in Australia]

 

I am continually repulsed by the American insistence that their way is always the better way and insinuations that their laws need to be enforced in every other country that might have a different idea, no matter how relatively benign the differences may be. Moreso, I'm disgusted by the countries that throw open the doors and allow the infiltration. In other words, this is MYOB issue AFAIC.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: