Something that irritates me a lot...CC

[Ginevra]

I grew up in a church that was of the Word of Faith type - the "health and wealth" gospel. I'm sure that background made me a bit hypersensitive about what I'm about to share, but even so, this thinking is very annoying to me. Most Christians I know don't adhere to "health and wealth" and would be quick to point out that the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. However, it seems to me that a lot of Christians talk out of both sides of their mouths in this respect.

 

One friend "shared" something on FB that said something like, "God knows how it will all turn out and for those who believe in Him, it turns out well." It bugged me enough that a friend "shared" this to begin with, but it bugs me more that ten people chime in with their "I agree!" comments. :banghead:

 

Some may be reading this now and going :001_huh: "So what? It does turn out well. We go to heaven!" But I don't believe that is the implication. The implication is, "Oh, I'm a Christian. I not only pray, I pray hard. (Whatever the heck that means.) Everything will work out just rosy posies for me because, after all, I'm on the right team." Why do Christians often promote this view, even while they say God does not necessarily protect them from harm?

 

P.S. The FB post was not the only thing; there was another similar e-mail attachment recently from an entirely different source that contained the same theme. IOW, it's not just one thing that happened on FB; I see evidence of this thinking often.

[fairfarmhand]

annoying.

 

"In this world, you WILL have trouble..."

 

"Take up your cross and follow me."

 

I could think of dozens of other scriptures. But I'd also remember the ultimate fates of most of the disciples.

[SunnyDays]

I don't know, because I don't buy into that line of thinking at all. Jesus Himself promised that in this life, there would be problems. Perhaps people find that philosophy to be reassuring... just pray and it will be fine. But I think it can go as far as being harmful when someone is struggling and others say, just pray harder, have more faith.

 

No real answers, just saying I agree with you in that we're not immune from trouble, Christian or not. :grouphug:

[momma aimee]

I grew up in a church that was of the Word of Faith type - the "health and wealth" gospel. I'm sure that background made me a bit hypersensitive about what I'm about to share, but even so, this thinking is very annoying to me. Most Christians I know don't adhere to "health and wealth" and would be quick to point out that the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. However, it seems to me that a lot of Christians talk out of both sides of their mouths in this respect.

 

One friend "shared" something on FB that said something like, "God knows how it will all turn out and for those who believe in Him, it turns out well." It bugged me enough that a friend "shared" this to begin with, but it bugs me more that ten people chime in with their "I agree!" comments. :banghead:

 

Some may be reading this now and going :001_huh: "So what? It does turn out well. We go to heaven!" But I don't believe that is the implication. The implication is, "Oh, I'm a Christian. I not only pray, I pray hard. (Whatever the heck that means.) Everything will work out just rosy posies for me because, after all, I'm on the right team." Why do Christians often promote this view, even while they say God does not necessarily protect them from harm?

 

P.S. The FB post was not the only thing; there was another similar e-mail attachment recently from an entirely different source that contained the same theme. IOW, it's not just one thing that happened on FB; I see evidence of this thinking often.

 

i have made comments like this time and time again. i believe it. God is in control, so no matter what happens here and now, in the end it is good (not just we go to heaven good, but good here on earth too)

 

that is not what it means.

 

it means God is in control and no matter what happens here, and now, it will be ok because it will be God's Will, God will use it, it is 'as it should be.

 

no Christian i know expects life to be "rosey" just because they are "on the right team" really -- being on the right team signs you up for a harder more challenging life.

 

it doesn't mean "pray harder" it means pray, grow and accept via faith --

[SonshineLearner]

God loved Job!

"By His stripes we are healed" doesn't mean we won't be sick or die of cancer...

Prayer is commanded and ultimately is understanding that WE are not God... He is God and things turn out the way that HE allows them to.....

[Guest]

i have made comments like this time and time again. i believe it. God is in control, so no matter what happens here and now, in the end it is good (not just we go to heaven good, but good here on earth too)

 

that is not what it means.

 

it means God is in control and no matter what happens here, and now, it will be ok because it will be God's Will, God will use it, it is 'as it should be.

 

no Christian i know expects life to be "rosey" just because they are "on the right team" really -- being on the right team signs you up for a harder more challenging life.

 

it doesn't mean "pray harder" it means pray, grow and accept via faith --

 

Then you believe that everything that happens is God's will? If a tornado tears through town and your neighbor's house is unscathed and your house is blown to bits, that is God's Will?

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I don't think that's something that you're likely to change people's minds about. I think an attitude like that, when confronted with something major-bad happening that doesn't end "rosy," can interpret those bad things as punishments from God/they did something wrong or have turned their backs on Him/they don't have enough faith. Which is sad to me. I actually wrote a blog post about my experience with ds3 being born premature yesterday, but it turned out okay, so I don't think it will help change those facebook posters' minds. I know some events have caused people to turn away from God for a time because it seemed like He turned His back on them. I think my attitude made a lot of the difference for me.

[FO4UR]

I'm not a fan of those trite sayings either.

 

 

That said, I do believe that what people intend for evil (and the trauma that nature can provoke) God can and does redeem. (Think of Joseph's words at the end of Genesis.) God does not *will* evil to happen.

[Parrothead]

annoying.

 

"In this world, you WILL have trouble..."

 

"Take up your cross and follow me."

 

I could think of dozens of other scriptures. But I'd also remember the ultimate fates of most of the disciples.

Yeah. :iagree:with what she said.

 

That particular line of thinking (what did you call it? Health and wealth?) doesn't bug me per se. But I don't understand it at all. Truly it makes no sense to me.

[*Michelle*]

It's just one of those things, I think. I don't really understand the idea of "if I pray hard enough, I'll receive what I'm praying for." I've done some hard, desperate praying and not received what I was asking for. It was down the road that I saw that I received what I needed: the strength to keep going.

 

What's the most powerful prayer? "Thy will be done..."

[Dobela]

Sometimes when I am having a difficult day, I like to remember those sayings. If I post them on facebook, it is because they have helped me thru the day. It is part of my faith and belief system. Romans 8 says that all things work together for good. Do I understand it all? Did God promise me a life free of bad and pain? No. The attitude I try to have is that if I persevere, I will have a reward of Heaven. Am I trying to rub it in anyone's face? no. And I am not trying to be preachy. Maybe you are reading too much into the comments based on your own background.

[momma aimee]

Then you believe that everything that happens is God's will? If a tornado tears through town and your neighbor's house is unscathed and your house is blown to bits, that is God's Will?

 

i believe He will use it, yes, i believe there is good to come from all things.

 

God does not "will" evil but he allows it -- He gives us the oppetruinity to minister to each other and to grow in faith and dependence on Him.

 

There is a real war between good and evil taking place, the God will win, but in the mean time we each have free will to serve or reject God.

 

we do our parts and the end will be good.

[tex-mex]

Honestly?

 

I simply think people who make trite comments like that have not gone thru the "fire" or walked the walk (i.e. cost of commitment) for Christ. It is not a bless me pie-in-the-sky walk, either. There are trials and there are times God simply makes no sense, like Job. I would not let the comments get to you, either. Time (God) has a way of changing those people's minds as life deals its cards, kwim?

[Ellie]

Well, Scripture does say that God causes all things to work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). Perhaps that's what she's referring to. It isn't the same thing as everything turning out "well."

[MomatHWTK]

I was thinking of the Roman's scripture as well. I don't think our earthly "well" and God's eternal "well" are always the same.

[Guest]

Sometimes when I am having a difficult day, I like to remember those sayings. If I post them on facebook, it is because they have helped me thru the day. It is part of my faith and belief system. Romans 8 says that all things work together for good. Do I understand it all? Did God promise me a life free of bad and pain? No. The attitude I try to have is that if I persevere, I will have a reward of Heaven. Am I trying to rub it in anyone's face? no. And I am not trying to be preachy. Maybe you are reading too much into the comments based on your own background.

 

This is entirely possible.

 

i believe He will use it, yes, i believe there is good to come from all things.

 

God does not "will" evil but he allows it -- He gives us the oppetruinity to minister to each other and to grow in faith and dependence on Him.

 

There is a real war between good and evil taking place, the God will win, but in the mean time we each have free will to serve or reject God.

 

we do our parts and the end will be good.

 

The concept of God not "willing" evil but allowing it is a huge disconnect for me anyway.

 

And there it is again...the end will be "good." What is good? There are Christians all over the world whose babies will starve to death today because there just isn't food for them. Is this good? Would it be good to you if that was your baby? There are many for whom this earthly life will not ever be good. They will die in pain, oppression or whatever; it will never work out good in their lifetime. This is the part that pulls my chain. It doesn't bother me if someone believes that, while things may never work out good on earth, their reward is in heaven, but that isn't what is being said here. The thinking is that things will work out good, right here in on earth, even if it doesn't look good right now. So - an infertile couple adopts children after year of not conceiving - that turns out objectively good. A man is fired from his job, but goes on to start a hugely successful internet business - it turned out objectively good. But this is not always the result! There are infertile couples who tried to adopt and the to-be-adopted child died and they never did become parents. There are people fired from their job who lose everything and move into a homeless shelter. KWIM? Things don't always turn out good (earthly here-and-now good), righteous or not.

 

Honestly?

 

I simply think people who make trite comments like that have not gone thru the "fire" or walked the walk (i.e. cost of commitment) for Christ. It is not a bless me pie-in-the-sky walk, either. There are trials and there are times God simply makes no sense, like Job. I would not let the comments get to you, either. Time (God) has a way of changing those people's minds as life deals its cards, kwim?

 

I think that, too, but some of what bothers me about that is that they could look around and see people for whom it hasn't all turned out well, but they are ignoring that Exhibit A, because they would rather think they enjoy special protection as a Christian.

 

Well, Scripture does say that God causes all things to work together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). Perhaps that's what she's referring to. It isn't the same thing as everything turning out "well."

 

The particular quote said "...it turns out well." This is the exact wording. That it turns out "well."

[Guest]

Here's a link to the actual photo she posted.

[KatA]

Here's a link to the actual photo she posted.

 

Eh. That photo doesn't resonate with me either.

 

Maybe it's because I feel my theology and beliefs can't be summed up in a nice pretty picture and sentence.

 

I feel that way about all those little sayings I see on facebook, Christian or not. Keep scrolling, just keep scrolling.

[TranquilMind]

I grew up in a church that was of the Word of Faith type - the "health and wealth" gospel. I'm sure that background made me a bit hypersensitive about what I'm about to share, but even so, this thinking is very annoying to me. Most Christians I know don't adhere to "health and wealth" and would be quick to point out that the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. However, it seems to me that a lot of Christians talk out of both sides of their mouths in this respect.

 

One friend "shared" something on FB that said something like, "God knows how it will all turn out and for those who believe in Him, it turns out well." It bugged me enough that a friend "shared" this to begin with, but it bugs me more that ten people chime in with their "I agree!" comments. :banghead:

 

Some may be reading this now and going :001_huh: "So what? It does turn out well. We go to heaven!" But I don't believe that is the implication. The implication is, "Oh, I'm a Christian. I not only pray, I pray hard. (Whatever the heck that means.) Everything will work out just rosy posies for me because, after all, I'm on the right team." Why do Christians often promote this view, even while they say God does not necessarily protect them from harm?

 

P.S. The FB post was not the only thing; there was another similar e-mail attachment recently from an entirely different source that contained the same theme. IOW, it's not just one thing that happened on FB; I see evidence of this thinking often.

 

But it DOES turn out well...sooner or later. Just not always as quickly as we would like.

[TranquilMind]

Honestly?

 

I simply think people who make trite comments like that have not gone thru the "fire" or walked the walk (i.e. cost of commitment) for Christ. It is not a bless me pie-in-the-sky walk, either. There are trials and there are times God simply makes no sense, like Job. I would not let the comments get to you, either. Time (God) has a way of changing those people's minds as life deals its cards, kwim?

 

Sometimes they have gone through them though, and know what they are talking about . At least this is my experience with those who have lost people, jobs, children, things.

[TranquilMind]

Sometimes when I am having a difficult day, I like to remember those sayings. If I post them on facebook, it is because they have helped me thru the day. It is part of my faith and belief system. Romans 8 says that all things work together for good. Do I understand it all? Did God promise me a life free of bad and pain? No. The attitude I try to have is that if I persevere, I will have a reward of Heaven. Am I trying to rub it in anyone's face? no. And I am not trying to be preachy. Maybe you are reading too much into the comments based on your own background.

 

Yes, I think so too.

 

When I read scripture, I am encouraged, not depressed, thinking everything good will only come when I am dead.

 

Isaiah 41:10 fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

 

 

Psalm 55:22 Cast your burden on the LORD, and he will sustain you; he will never permit the righteous to be moved.

 

 

Philippians 4:6-7 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

 

Matthew 7:7-8: Ask, and it will be given to you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

 

Hebrews 11:6: Without faith, it is impossible to please God. For he who comes to God must believe He exists, and rewards those who diligently seek Him.

[happi duck]

Nm

Edited September 17, 2012 by happi duck

[JenniferB]

Why do Christians often promote this view, even while they say God does not necessarily protect them from harm?

 

I think Christians promote this view because they have been distanced and uneducated in the teachings and examples of the ancient church. This view is not present in the Orthodox Church, in fact we hear the opposite teaching. There is a strong emphasis in the Orthodox Church to remember and imitate the Saints who suffered for the faith, many to the death. This Sunday my priest preached on this very topic and one of the things he said was, "if you are not suffering you are probably not doing something right." That is a hard saying, especially for modern Americans, but it is the message of Jesus and the Apostles.

[annandatje]

Maybe the poster meant nothing more than he/she finds their religious faith comforting, particularly during trying times.

 

Job would disagree that all turns out well objectively for true believers.

[TranquilMind]

Maybe the poster meant nothing more than he/she finds their religious faith comforting, particularly during trying times.

 

Job would disagree that all turns out well objectively for true believers.

 

Would he disagree now?

[Little Nyssa]

The thing is, our definition of things turning out right may not be God's definition of things turning out right.

[freeindeed]

annoying.

 

"In this world, you WILL have trouble..."

 

"Take up your cross and follow me."

 

I could think of dozens of other scriptures. But I'd also remember the ultimate fates of most of the disciples.

 

:iagree:

Yep, no guarantees of getting rid of hardship in this life.

[Bluegoat]

I think it may be more of a human nature thing than a Christian thing. You see it too among people who are not particularly religious, which doesn't seem to make sense at all. The attitude may be "well, if you work hard you will come out alright in the end", maybe framed as "well, if he isn't doing well it is because he didn't work hard enough/take the opportunities given to him/get an education". Which is on the face of it absurd, but people often say things like that.

 

I think it is probably indicative of emotional immaturity or maybe having had a rather easy life, whether Christians or non-Christians say it.

[TXMomof4]

I was thinking of the Roman's scripture as well. I don't think our earthly "well" and God's eternal "well" are always the same.

 

I agre. Having been through hard, hard things I am able to look back and see the real good and blessings in the face of horrible awfulness. Really horrible. It doesn't mean I wouldn't like things to be different still. But I can see the good that happened anyway.

 

This friend is a perfect example. http://Www.hischase.org. It is mind- boggleing to have experienced the pain with this family and to witness the good God worked in spite of it. I pray for their faith and strength daily

 

Please.excuse typos. This phone is possessed!

[Dobela]

The thing is, our definition of things turning out right may not be God's definition of things turning out right.

:iagree: I actually reposted that photo on my facebook page sometime in the last week. When I think of it, I think of heaven. God has not promised me an easy life by any means. It is not because I am emotionally immature, or had an easy life. It is because I believe that no matter how difficult it is here, that I will hopefully be in Heaven someday if I keep my faith in God. God promises Heaven. He promises that I those who follow him will be persecuted. He promises that he will care for me - but how that happens may not be how I envision it. I share pictures like that because I believe it. I share it because sometimes I need the reminders and I have enough like minded friends that they appreciate them as well. I share it for entirely personal reasons, not to convert or offend. But then I have never attended a church where the faithful are promised wealth and health in return for belief. When my athiest friends share posts related to their beliefs, I just ignore them and move on if they don't match mine. If people are posting these and you don't like it, you need to hide their posts I assume.

[Anne in CA]

You hit on something that causes me concern also. Especially since so many "health and wealth" types pray in very specific ways "telling" God what to do. I also grew up exposed to a lot of "health and wealth" and one of those churches saved my family from imminent destruction, but the thinking that someone can get a better outcome by being on the right team causes other people to stumble.

[Marylou]

"He does all things well" and "health and wealth gospel" are not the same.

[Word Nerd]

Here's a link to the actual photo she posted.

 

To me, the print is a reference to heaven, not a claim that life will be rosy for believers. FWIW, I also have knee-jerk reactions to health-wealth/Word of Faith stuff, but that particular sentiment doesn't strike me as such.

[Mimm]

Then you believe that everything that happens is God's will? If a tornado tears through town and your neighbor's house is unscathed and your house is blown to bits, that is God's Will?

 

I don't believe everything is God's will. I think God loves us dearly and would like for things to go well for us, but the world sucks and that's just how it is. I believe that when bad things happen to us, God mourns with us, and we can turn to him and use that experience to grow closer to God. And in that way, all things can work for good, but that doesn't take the bad out of the situation. It just means that together with the bad, some good can come from it.

 

I will be the first to admit that I have a very hard time reconciling the idea of a loving God and an all powerful God standing back and letting us suffer. I went through a fairly dark period where I was very angry at God about this. And I don't have the magic answer for what made me move past it. Because I still don't understand it. Exploring and learning about other Christian traditions has helped me a lot. I love the Catholic and Orthodox women on this forum that answer people's questions about their faith. I don't think they realize how healing they have been for me. :)

[Laurie4b]

I looked at your link and I don't read it at all the way you are reading it; in fact, it wouldn't have crossed my mind that it could be read that way. I read it as talking about heaven, about the Day of the Lord, about the time when there is no more sickness or sorrow or death. I am not health and wealth at.all. and the preacher I listened to for most of my life had a strong emphasis on faithful Christian suffering. I think you're reading into it.

[Guest]

Would he disagree now?

 

Well, that is one of the many things I don't like about the story of Job, because ultimately, all his losses were repaid. Do ten additional children make up for the loss of the original ten? Is it an improvement that the "new" girl children were really fine babes? Is it acceptable for God to "allow" the house to cave in on the ten children, since it's a part of the story and He's going to repay him in good-looking children later anyway?

 

Also, the ending of Job is exactly what the "turn out well" believers cling to in order to explain why everything that is crappy now is okay. What if Job was never restored? What if he just scraped his boils for thirty more years and died a penniless beggar? Is that still God's mysterious version of what is "good"?

 

The thing is, our definition of things turning out right may not be God's definition of things turning out right.

 

This explanation is not acceptable to me, because how can we judge God to be good if we can't objectively judge His works to be good? Of course, tangential good things can come out of the most horrific of circumstances; I don't deny it. But it makes no sense to say God needs to sit by feeling sorry for us on the lame promise that some flowers will bloom amongst the dung. This also ties in with prayer. If we cannot guess what would be good in any particular circumstance, then why pray anything except, "Thy will be done." (One could wonder why even that prayer would need uttering.) How can we presume to pray that the cancer be healed or dh's job offer will work out or a pregnancy with poor numbers will be sustained? If we can't admit that those do appear to be good things and their opposite is not good, why would we pray for any outcome we judge to be good?

 

I think it may be more of a human nature thing than a Christian thing. You see it too among people who are not particularly religious, which doesn't seem to make sense at all. The attitude may be "well, if you work hard you will come out alright in the end", maybe framed as "well, if he isn't doing well it is because he didn't work hard enough/take the opportunities given to him/get an education". Which is on the face of it absurd, but people often say things like that.

 

I think it is probably indicative of emotional immaturity or maybe having had a rather easy life, whether Christians or non-Christians say it.

 

That's a good point. I never thought about that much, but you're right.

 

I don't believe everything is God's will. I think God loves us dearly and would like for things to go well for us, but the world sucks and that's just how it is. I believe that when bad things happen to us, God mourns with us, and we can turn to him and use that experience to grow closer to God. And in that way, all things can work for good, but that doesn't take the bad out of the situation. It just means that together with the bad, some good can come from it.

 

See above. And thanks for your honesty.

[dangermom]

I looked at the photo, and I think it's pretty clearly referring to heaven and the ultimate end, not a nice retirement. I do believe that things turn out well in the end...though the end is a long way away and I might lose my house along the road. I will certainly have my heart broken, that's already happened.

 

About 10 days ago a friend of mine was speaking in church and was telling about a slightly difficult time she was having, and someone she didn't know, who somehow knew what faith she belonged to, said "Then you know it will all be OK." That thought lifted her up and helped her do the thing she was doing. Now, that one experience was not an awful one--but I happen to know that she has had some real, serious heartache for a good 10 years now (which I did not know until about 6 months ago despite having known her over 10 years--she doesn't talk about it). And she still says that it will all be OK...in the end.

[TranquilMind]

Quill: Well, that is one of the many things I don't like about the story of Job, because ultimately, all his losses were repaid. Do ten additional children make up for the loss of the original ten? Is it an improvement that the "new" girl children were really fine babes? Is it acceptable for God to "allow" the house to cave in on the ten children, since it's a part of the story and He's going to repay him in good-looking children later anyway?

 

No, but if you take the long view that this earth is not our home, Job has 20 children now, not ten. Does he understand now? Yes, I'd say.

 

 

Also, the ending of Job is exactly what the "turn out well" believers cling to in order to explain why everything that is crappy now is okay. What if Job was never restored? What if he just scraped his boils for thirty more years and died a penniless beggar? Is that still God's mysterious version of what is "good"?

 

But that's not where it ends and it isn't where it ends for us either. It isn't even the whole story, because what one person views as the penniless beggar might be a supremely rich person in the kingdom of heaven. I think of the story of St. Francis here, who actually started out as an extremely rich guy.

 

 

How can we presume to pray that the cancer be healed or dh's job offer will work out or a pregnancy with poor numbers will be sustained? If we can't admit that those do appear to be good things and their opposite is not good, why would we pray for any outcome we judge to be good?

 

Oh, I totally know those are good things. It is not God's will that babies die or people starve or cancer kills someone any more than the previous answer someone gave that it is not God's will that the tornado take out someone's home. Bad things happen. Things interfere sometimes that we don't understand.

 

 

[Nestof3]

I don't know where I fit in. I'm very conservative if you look at a scale, but I disagree with many things I hear. Things like, "And God made the day sunny for us." "Or God made it rain because he knew we needed it."

 

Or, God protected us in the accident (too bad He didn't protect the schmuck behind us."

 

I really don't know what God's hand is in the small things.

 

And I will be happy if I never hear the phrase "He never gives us more than we can handle" when discussing how busy someone is. No, but how much of what that person chooses to do is really what God put in her lap?

 

I just think like so many Christians.

[MomatHWTK]

I think that was the whole point of Job, we don't get to judge God.

[Soror]

I really get annoyed at these type of things as well. Just last week or so I read something on here along the same lines, something about how someone doesn't worry because God always provides and everything will always turn out ok. But it doesn't. Christians are not immune to starvation. Christians are not immune from financial hardship and bankruptcy. Christians are not immune from persecution. Christianity and God are not immunity to any bad thing happening and I think we are insulting to others when we try to say otherwise. "Well, I have faith so everything will always be good." Then it puts the blame of those who suffer to a lack of faith.

[Shamzanne]

I agree. People pull a LOT of theology out of a few isolated verses.

[Refined by Silver]

Well, that is one of the many things I don't like about the story of Job, because ultimately, all his losses were repaid. Do ten additional children make up for the loss of the original ten? Is it an improvement that the "new" girl children were really fine babes? Is it acceptable for God to "allow" the house to cave in on the ten children, since it's a part of the story and He's going to repay him in good-looking children later anyway?

 

 

Well, you know the key to that is not that Job had more children. He could have had more children if his others has not died. Children are supposed to be a blessing. I believe the real key there is that God doubled everything Job lost, but he didn't double his children. Why? Because he really didn't lose his children. They were in heaven and would be reunited with him one day.

 

I like this verse when I am struggling to understanding why certain things happen. Maybe not things that God causes, but then again he has to allow them. He is God he could stop that tornado even if he didn't cause it to hit that house.

 

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways,â€

declares the Lord.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

Who am I to decide God's ways are not ok. It does not mean I understand them all. Of course not, but I'm not sure we are supposed to.

 

I definitely also like the Roman scripture that says all things work together for good to those that love Him. I'm paraprashing that one. I was immediately thinking about that when I read your post, then I saw some other posters mention it. I think we have to remember that things working out for good is not meaning having a pain free life. Once sin entered the world, then that wasn't an option.

 

Working out for the good is having things produce growth in our lives. Those troubles refine us and shape us to be more Christ like. When you are in the midst of trouble it is hard to see the long term benefit that God sees. He sees the finished project when he is modeling and shaping us. I also think that some times we look at things in too much of an earthly perspective instead of an eternal one. Death is painful. Grief is not fun, but everyone dies and I don't think anyone in heaven would wish to come back to earth after experiencing it.

 

Proverbs 3:12 says that the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

 

As a parent, I know that often times I discipline my kids because I know they have a lesson to learn. It is for their benefit and long term growth and maturity. Often times I hate it, but I know it is required.

 

The health and wealth thing is disturbing to me. That doesn't mean that God can't give you earthly blessings, but if everything is perfect, then it is hard to rely on God. Often we rely on self and our possessions instead of God. I believe that is why the Bible says that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I go back to Proverbs and see that if I'm not getting disciplined, then maybe I better be wondering why?

 

I know I made this post too long. I didn't mean to be so long winded and probably a bit disjointed as I haven't slept. I was in bed and not sleeping, so of course I was scanning the boards. Usually, I would have went on, but I felt compelled to respond.

[Heather in Neverland]

I think that was the whole point of Job, we don't get to judge God.

 

Exactly.

 

You are trying to apply a HUMAN definition of "good" to God who is the very definition of good. If God does it, wills it, says it then it is GOOD. It may not fit OUR definition of good but God is beyond our definition.

 

Isaiah 45:9

“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—

An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!

Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’

Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?"

 

The clay does not get to tell the potter what to do, how to do it, or judge what the potter does. We are His creation. We do not get to point an accusing finger heavenward and say, "how dare you!"

 

FWIW, I loathe the prosperity gospel. I think it is one of the greatest and most dangerous heresies of this time. God did not promise us happiness, health, wealth or any of that.

 

Will things turn out "good"? Absolutely because God wins. Every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus is Lord to the praise of the Father. THAT is everything turning out well.

 

 

.

[tex-mex]

Sometimes they have gone through them though, and know what they are talking about . At least this is my experience with those who have lost people, jobs, children, things.

 

I am referring to those who are constantly under attack in their lives, health, finances, and family. Years upon years of unending sorrow, grief, and no peace. Not just a couple of losses... walking thru decades of a Job-like experience. And these people have to be scrutinized by those (who have not walked in their path with Christ) by telling them the reason they are going thru such battles is due to unbelief, sin, or lack of will. God crushes people (not all) to the point where they either give in and die -- or keep enduring the pain for some greater good. It is not up to the clay to tell the potter how to shape them, kwim? (And yes, it has been close to 20 years of this for myself with no end in sight... but I am at a point where the bitterness is long gone and I do not let those (Job's friends) give me counsel as they have no clue what they are talking about.) ;) And yet, my trials are nothing compared to someone in another part of the world who is imprisoned or killed for their beliefs. One can go and point to them and say where is the justice or God's protection in their life? Many times God makes no sense, He sits in the heavens and does as He pleases. It is not up to me to question His doings, like Job. Such is the cost of commitment. Life is never fair.

Edited September 18, 2012 by tex-mex

[amy g.]

I guess I am emotionally immature and have had an easy life because I do believe that God has control over everything that happens in my life. I believe that even when it looks and feels like something horrible is happening to me, it is really just something that has to happen in order for God to give me an even greater blessing.

 

I grew up with a mentally ill mother. If I had not, I might not be as committed to being the best parent I can possibly be.

 

I had an alcoholic, abusive stepfather. If I had not, I might not have had the wisdom to choose the most amazing husband on earth.

 

I've suffered with infertility and miscarriages, but if I had not, I might not see so clearly what a miracle my beautiful children are.

 

I've had my home completely destroyed by flood.....twice. If I had not, we would not have been bought out by the county, and have been able to purchase this beautiful property where we intend to live out our days.

 

I do not believe life will be rosy for Christians, but I do believe that God wants always to bless me. I'm a parent. I know how I feel about my own children. How can I believe God has a lesser love for me?

 

I'm no Bible scholar. I don't claim to be, but I have a close, lifelong, intimate relationship with my Creator.

 

Tragedy occurs, but God turns my mourning into dancing.

 

I live an incredible happy and blessed life.

 

What if I'm ultimately wrong and immature and uneducated? I'll take my chances.

Edited September 18, 2012 by amy g.

[Nestof3]

I am glad that you have such peace despite your obstacles, and it does sound like thinks are much better than how they started for you. But it's the correlation between events and outcomes and it being God that bothers me here because those same things happen to nonChristians. And many people are mentally ill as a result of parental illness, and many are alcoholics because of alcoholic parents. Many choose horrible spouses because of their childhood. What made you do special that God decided to not low those things to natively influence you but allowed them to turn others into alcoholic, child-abusing, mentally unstable people? Many of those people are struggling Christians. What about the many flooded people who are now homeless? Yet your life turned out for the better.

 

It seems to me that things happen and people try to explain how God fit into it. Or try to assume it was His hand. A woman at our church miscarried and said it was God's will. There was no way she could have made the baby live. But, when it comes to the birthing side, people begin turn to doctors and monitoring systems to ensure a healthy birth. If we have no control over pregnancies that end, how do we have control over those that succeed? It just makes no sense to me.

 

 

I guess I am emotionally immature and have had an easy life because I do believe that God has control over everything that happens in my life. I believe that even when it looks and feels like something horrible is happening to me, it is really just something that has to happen in order for God to give me an even greater blessing.

 

I grew up with a mentally ill mother. If I had not, I might not be as committed to being the best parent I can possibly be.

 

I had an alcoholic, abusive stepfather. If I had not, I might not have had the wisdom to choose the most amazing husband on earth.

 

I've suffered with infertility and miscarriages, but if I had not, I might not see so clearly what a miracle my beautiful children are.

 

I've had my home completely destroyed by flood.....twice. If I had not, we would not have been bought out by the county, and have been able to purchase this beautiful property where we intend to live out our days.

 

I do not believe life will be rosy for Christians, but I do believe that God wants always to bless me. I'm a parent. I know how I feel about my own children. How can I believe God has a lesser love for me?

 

I'm no Bible scholar. I don't claim to be, but I have a close, lifelong, intimate relationship with my Creator.

 

Tragedy occurs, but God turns my mourning into dancing.

 

I live an incredible happy and blessed life.

 

What if I'm ultimately wrong and immature and uneducated? I'll take my chances.

[amy g.]

I really can not answer all of your questions. It is not my place to make judgements about other people's lives. I don't spend my time thinking about what other people need to be doing.

 

I know a little bit about addiction considering I was was in recovery by the time I was 13. I wanted something other than what I was born into. I asked God for help.

 

I am no expert on other peoples trouble or spiritual lives. All I know about is my own. I have never asked God for help, and not received it.

 

What makes me so special? I am God's own child. What would you not do for your own child?

 

I never had inside of myself the ability to rise from my family patterns. I would never claim to have done it in my own strength. I did cry out to God for him to help me live the life He created me for.

 

God opened doors for me, and I made the choice to walk through them. That does not cause me to make correlations or judgements about other people's lives.

 

I realize how simplistic my thinking is. I can't help it. My faith is simplistic, but my relationship is real.

 

I don't know God's mind. I don't know God's plan. I can't explain why the world is like it is.

 

I can just do my best every day to appreciate my blessings, help others and live the life I was given to the very best of my ability.

[Nestof3]

OI don't mean to pick on you, but are not all God's children special, and yet many live far worse lives. Because if this i can see no correlation between your relationship with God and the fact that things turned out great for you. I'm glad it makes sense to you.

 

I know a very faith-filled family whose dad was a pedophile who abused his own children and their cousin killed herself and the father killed himself last year.

His father had been a pedophile as well.

 

My grandmother, the strongest believer I think in our family was killed by carbon monoxide emissions six years ago by a generator her son hooked up for her after a tropical storm. I'm sure lots of believers had stories proclaiming God had saved them and their homes. I'm sure they felt special -- what would their Father not do for them?

 

We buried my healthy 83 year old grandmother.

I really can not answer all of your questions. It is not my place to make judgements about other people's lives. I don't spend my time thinking about what other people need to be doing.

 

I know a little bit about addiction considering I was was in recovery by the time I was 13. I wanted something other than what I was born into. I asked God for help.

 

I am no expert on other peoples trouble or spiritual lives. All I know about is my own. I have never asked God for help, and not received it.

 

What makes me so special? I am God's own child. What would you not do for your own child?

 

I never had inside of myself the ability to rise from my family patterns. I would never claim to have done it in my own strength. I did cry out to God for him to help me live the life He created me for.

 

God opened doors for me, and I made the choice to walk through them. That does not cause me to make correlations or judgements about other people's lives.

 

I realize how simplistic my thinking is. I can't help it. My faith is simplistic, but my relationship is real.

 

I don't know God's mind. I don't know God's plan. I can't explain why the world is like it is.

 

I can just do my best every day to appreciate my blessings, help others and live the life I was given to the very best of my ability.

Edited September 18, 2012 by nestof3

[Nestof3]

Amy,

 

I'm really not looking for you to answer my hard questions. And, I'm not insisting you question your views.

 

Some more interesting tidbits about my grandmother.

 

Her father backed over her 4 year old sister.

 

Her father was swept into the ocean during a hurricane in the Florida Keys in the 30's on Labor Day weekend. He had been working on a WW1 vet project (bridge) assigned as a result of hunger marches.

 

Her mother was starving herself to ensure her children had food. As a result, she acquired a severe vitamin deficiency that led to dementia and death in her 30's.

 

My grandmother was then raped by her uncle. She and her siblings were orphaned. My grandmother was 12.

 

My grandfather died of an aggressive cancer, so she was a widow on that Labor Day weekend when Ernesto, previously a hurricane, came through as a tropical storm -- leaving her too to die on the same weekend 71 years later.