If CPS comes to your door...

[ErinD]

I am not totally immune to fears of CPS. Several years ago a mentally unstable family member accused me of starving my child, and just last week someone left a comment on my blog expressing concerns about how thin that same child is and wondering whether we are feeding her enough. Yes, I can imagine someone making a complaint against me.

.

 

Wow. Do these people not take the time to read your (fantastic) blog before they blurt this stuff out? How could anyone reading what you have to say, and what Alex in particular is up to, even entertain such an idea? :001_huh:

[ocelotmom]

About using "unfounded" against you. This really works both ways. Yes, it could be "maybe there is really a concern here since we have 8 referrals; let's make sure we get to the bottom of this this time." It could also be, "there are 8 referrals with no evidence of anything so likely today's referral is nothing also."

 

The latter has been our experience. Previous reports helped verify that the autistic child really is autistic and has a history of bizarre and inappropriate behaviors.

[Tarreymere]

Well, if CPS in general had a problem with a messy house then my dh would be turning ME in pretty much daily. We live in a trailer with seven people and I'm usually stuck at home with at least four kids if not a few more drop-offs, and we do have a dog and a cat. My cat has peed in the house. My dog picks up fleas and sometimes I actually do forget when his frontline is due.

 

There are days it seems like the circus lives here, days when you can hear me yell or someone screaming. I don't have a problem with an eleven year old mowing a lawn and I have personally had a twelve year old kid with a prosthetic leg out in my own yard mowing and acting like he was about to keel over and die the whole while.

 

I get tired and stressed and some days I am just NOT going to get right to cleaning whatever the latest disaster happens to be. My kids play outside including the two year old grandson, and I don't stand outside and watch them (dead end street, almost no traffic). The day before payday we don't have much in the frig either. We homeschool. I don't think dh is the kind of caseworker that would have a problem with any of that, because if he was we wouldn't be married. :glare: Or at least my adult daughter wouldn't be living here with my grandson, and I wouldn't have my other grandson here while his mom is in jail (it has been a very stressful summer).

 

But I guess those kind of caseworkers really are out there, even if they are the minority. You would think that they would be too busy with all of those other cases that involve real problems, but I guess those kind of people still find enough time and energy to make trouble for people who just don't live the way the caseworker thinks they should live. It just makes sense to be prepared for the worst, especially when your kids are at stake.

[Impish]

 

Also, the word "judgment" only has one e in it. I am just sayin'.

Not in Canada ;)

 

The spectre of CPS showing up at my door is a real one.

 

My mom is a nutbunny of epic evil proportions. Would not shock me in the slightest if she tried to have them investigate me.

 

And yeah, it worries me.

 

The kids are dressed, fed, clean.

 

My house, on the other hand, is a tip. There's only so much I can do on a good day, one handed. And bad days? I'm lucky to hold it together as I do til Wolf gets home.

 

6 ppl crammed in a 3 bdrm mobile, makes for clutter. My floors constantly need washing. Tubs scrubbed.

 

But until we move, and our rent/utilities go down, I can't spare the $ to have someone come in.

[jelbe5]

My house, on the other hand, is a tip.

[/b]

 

Love it! My parents are from Glasgow, so I have heard this word a lot in my lifetime. They also used the word "midden".

 

My autistic son is a hoarder of all toys and loves to scatter them everywhere and dump them. I have to sneak them out the door. He does not want me to throw ANYTHING out. I have to do it when my dh takes him out or when he is asleep.

 

For those who are doing this: :confused:

 

"tip" and "midden" mean "dump" here in the good ol' USA.

 

Impish, I can only imagine how hard it must be for you. But I had to share how your using the word "tip" made me chuckle.

Edited August 15, 2012 by jelbe5

[Rivka]

Wow. Do these people not take the time to read your (fantastic) blog before they blurt this stuff out? How could anyone reading what you have to say, and what Alex in particular is up to, even entertain such an idea? :001_huh:

 

She's skinny. Apparently that's reason enough to suspect my parenting.

[lea_lpz]

I had them show up once and was so surprised that I let them in. A neighbor thought the kids were home alone. We were new to the area and only had one car since dh worked close by, but instead of knocking on the door they just called the police. :glare: I have been told since that I should not have let them in, but the CPS woman showed up with two police officers and I just wanted them to know I wasn't guilty of anything so I let them in. They looked around, woke up younger from her nap, took pictures, and then sent a letter that we were cleared. It was not a fun experience and I never was able to let myself be close with our neighbors after that. I was so glad when we moved.

 

Wow! Some people can be utterly stupid. I hate how people today are so ridiculous and have no common sense about things.

[ErinD]

Rivka: "She's skinny. Apparently that's reason enough to suspect my parenting. "

 

Well, yeah, an active, growing kid being skinny...why wouldn't someone's mind automatically go straight to "abuse"? lol

 

My oldest, like my childhood self, was drastically underweight naturally. He's now almost 20, 6'2" and weighs about 230...not fat. I won't tell you what I weigh but suffice to say it isn't underweight. :) Some kids are just naturally skinny.

[Impish]

Love it! My parents are from Glasgow, so I have heard this word a lot in my lifetime. They also used the word "midden".

 

My autistic son is a hoarder of all toys and loves to scatter them everywhere and dump them. I have to sneak them out the door. He does not want me to throw ANYTHING out. I have to do it when my dh takes him out or when he is asleep.

 

For those who are doing this: :confused:

 

"tip" and "midden" mean "dump" here in the good ol' USA.

 

Impish, I can only imagine how hard it must be for you. But I had to share how your using the word "tip" made me chuckle.

I blame family influence. My ggpa was from England, and then my gpa's 3rd wife was British. Some things just stick w/ya, yanno? :lol:

[Slipper]

I am enjoying reading through the thoughts and opinions on this thread. We have not been visited by CPS but I am in the middle of a contentious battle with an ego driven person. She is trying to cause legal problems for me at the moment (and I feel certain she will lose) but I worry that she will next call CPS just to give me grief. (She epitomizes cutting off her nose to spite her face).

 

I try not to worry but I am anxious by nature and her recent maneuverings have me on medication.

 

I can see where many things on the outside look "odd" to others (homeschooling is NOT common here) and one of my daughters is significantly underweight, but I feel good about things. I would want to talk to someone on my porch for a few minutes before inviting them in though, just to see what their personality is like.

[Rivka]

I am in the middle of a contentious battle with an ego driven person. She is trying to cause legal problems for me at the moment (and I feel certain she will lose) but I worry that she will next call CPS just to give me grief. (She epitomizes cutting off her nose to spite her face).

 

I can see where many things on the outside look "odd" to others (homeschooling is NOT common here) and one of my daughters is significantly underweight, but I feel good about things. I would want to talk to someone on my porch for a few minutes before inviting them in though, just to see what their personality is like.

 

My underweight child has annual well-child checkups, and every year I make sure to discuss her weight with her doctor. That way it's documented in his notes that I show appropriate concern and that he is satisfied with her growth and nutrition. It will probably never, ever come up, but if my unstable relative did ever push the issue, the documentation would be there and our pediatrician could testify on my behalf.

 

Similarly, if you feel that homeschooling might be raised as an issue, you can make sure that you're always able to lay immediate hands on your documentation. Right now my annual registration letter is sitting in my computer as an e-mail attachment, but if I had concerns about being reported, it would be in a handy file folder with some work samples.

[Slipper]

My underweight child has annual well-child checkups, and every year I make sure to discuss her weight with her doctor. That way it's documented in his notes that I show appropriate concern and that he is satisfied with her growth and nutrition. It will probably never, ever come up, but if my unstable relative did ever push the issue, the documentation would be there and our pediatrician could testify on my behalf.

 

Similarly, if you feel that homeschooling might be raised as an issue, you can make sure that you're always able to lay immediate hands on your documentation. Right now my annual registration letter is sitting in my computer as an e-mail attachment, but if I had concerns about being reported, it would be in a handy file folder with some work samples.

 

Since it's a concern for me, I'm prepared (as much as I can be anyway). My daughter has Celiac Disease but is considered small even for a CD kid. She sees a pediatrician and gastro regularly and has had further testing to make sure nothing else was going on. Both doctors say she is in excellent health. Physically she is a little over 2 years behind in body weight/mass, etc. (Mentally she is fine).

 

I forewarned our cover school director and I'm keeping good notes. Our state is relaxed on what we need to provide for homeschool records (attendance logs) so I feel somewhat okay.

 

It's one of those things that I shouldn't be anxious about because the house is neat, the kids are healthy, food is in the fridge and our teacups are roach-free, but my anxiety makes me fret. :001_huh:

[Jpoy85]

My underweight child has annual well-child checkups, and every year I make sure to discuss her weight with her doctor. That way it's documented in his notes that I show appropriate concern and that he is satisfied with her growth and nutrition. It will probably never, ever come up, but if my unstable relative did ever push the issue, the documentation would be there and our pediatrician could testify on my behalf.

 

Similarly, if you feel that homeschooling might be raised as an issue, you can make sure that you're always able to lay immediate hands on your documentation. Right now my annual registration letter is sitting in my computer as an e-mail attachment, but if I had concerns about being reported, it would be in a handy file folder with some work samples.

 

Since it's a concern for me, I'm prepared (as much as I can be anyway). My daughter has Celiac Disease but is considered small even for a CD kid. She sees a pediatrician and gastro regularly and has had further testing to make sure nothing else was going on. Both doctors say she is in excellent health. Physically she is a little over 2 years behind in body weight/mass, etc. (Mentally she is fine).

 

I forewarned our cover school director and I'm keeping good notes. Our state is relaxed on what we need to provide for homeschool records (attendance logs) so I feel somewhat okay.

 

It's one of those things that I shouldn't be anxious about because the house is neat, the kids are healthy, food is in the fridge and our teacups are roach-free, but my anxiety makes me fret. :001_huh:

 

From experience you might want to have a darn good guarantee your pediatrician would stand up to that. My Pediatrician was on board, CPS's Pediatrician wasnt on board and guess who they believed? :glare:

[cindergretta]

No food in the fridge keeps getting mentioned. Today it is the one that bugs me. I have a large chest freezer 3/4 full of food. My food cupboard (such as it is) is full of food. My fridge on the other hand is not full of fresh food. It is 4 days before payday and the only thing in the fridge is left overs, milk and eggs. If I were to clean out the leftovers the fridge would be empty except for 2 dozen eggs and a gallon of milk. And condiments in the door. :glare:

 

Of course to look at us, one would know none of us are starving. :D

 

"No food in the fridge" is being used to mean "no food in the house." No one would care if your fridge is bare and your cupboards are brimming. :D

 

And really, food and cleanliness issues aren't generally, in and of themselves, issues for removal. They can be indicators that the family needs help, but there would usually have to be a LOT more going on before dc would be removed. Is the fridge empty and house a disaster because mom is working and dad is out of the picture? Or is the fridge empty and the house a disaster because mom is drunk/passed out in bed while dad is high on drugs? The former would mean services (hopefully!!!) offered while the latter would (hopefully!!!!) mean removal of the dc.

[Slipper]

From experience you might want to have a darn good guarantee your pediatrician would stand up to that. My Pediatrician was on board, CPS's Pediatrician wasnt on board and guess who they believed? :glare:

 

That's creepy. I would think they would trust the doctor who has seen her all her life.

 

I honestly don't know what else I could do to prove it. She's physically active and mature, just very small.

 

The bright side is that we live in an impoverished area (though we are financially stable). Most social workers here would probably take one look and think their visit was a waste of time. I just worry about it.

[Galatea]

I was a foster child most of my childhood and was legally adopted at 14. I babysat as a teen for neighbors with foster children. My brother was a social worker and is now a counselor with CPS in his state. My husband's best friend and his wife adopted 3 foster children.

 

I've had a lot of exposure to CPS in 4 different states. It took 2 years for my uncontested, no-parental-rights-remaining, adoption to be finalized because of lazy social workers who were overly critical of my not-so-well-off with a small house, adoptive parents.

 

With all of my experience with them, I wouldn't let CPS in my house without legal documentation that they had the right to do so. I've had too much exposure to them. Yes, there are good case workers; my own brother is one of them. But there are also lazy, selfish, child-hating, parent-hating, bigoted, anti-religious, too-pro-religious, overly-traditional, fear-mongering, extreme anti-spanking, overly critical people too. And sometimes they let their little taste of power get to them. No different than some NCOs/officers in the Army. Some people just want to control or prove that they have the upper hand.

[CAMom]

I'm only on page 10 of reading but just wanted to share our story....

 

This was with the local police, not CPS but it was equally as difficult. One December afternoon (this was about 8 or 9 years ago), there was a knock on my door. I looked out the window and saw two uniformed police officers and immediately thought something was wrong with my husband!

 

I opened the door and they started questioning me as to whether or not we were having a "domestic disturbance." I answered no. They asked to see my husband and I explained he was at work.

 

They asked to come in a "question my children." I informed them I was uncomfortable with that. They said they had received a call that my husband beat me and pulls our kids around by their hair. I told them that was absolutely untrue and asked to call my husband at work so that he could come home. (His office is less than a mile from home and across the street from the police station.) They refuse to allow me to do that and kept insisting I let them in.

 

I stood on the porch and politely told them I was feeling intimidated and that I was not comfortable with them coming in. They told me to move aside because they were coming in with our without my permission to "examine my children." They went right by me into the house.

 

They walked around, smelled my chicken baking in the oven, saw my dd playing an educational game on the computer and found my ds vacuuming the hallway.

 

They asked my kids some questions and then asked me if I knew of anyone who would report us. I was so traumatized! My ds (he was about 10 at the time) kept saying, "It's ok, Mom, they must have had the wrong house."

 

The point is they came by on a 911 call that my husband was beating us when he wasn't even home. They violated our rights and came in without permission. After that experience, I can't feel comfortable with ever letting anyone "investigating a charge" into my home for the heck of it. They need to have a little something else to back them up.

 

Back to reading....

[Caraway]

It probably has to do with the fact that we've had new baby after new baby and it's drilled into my head to not open doors to strangers with a baby in the house.

 

Why are you not supposed to answer the door with a baby in the house?

[cindergretta]

Why are you not supposed to answer the door with a baby in the house?

 

In rare cases, wackadoodles who want a baby will keep tabs in their area on who has a new baby and come to those homes, especially under other pretenses, and either snatch the baby or come back later with concrete knowledge of the home, family make up, etc. and then snatch the baby. The stories are positively horrific!

 

(I always think about that when I see people with yard signs advertising their new little bundle of joy. We won't even have visible balloons.)

[Momma_Bear]

Here, CPS does not make unannounced first visits without a uniformed police officer or state trooper with them. So, if someone showed up at my door alone and claimed to be from CPS, I would ask them politely to return with an officer or they could wait outside until one showed up because I was calling the police. There are too many crazies out there in the world to let someone into your house because they claim to be from CPS.

If they came to the door unannounced with a uniformed officer, I would just invite them both in. We had several visits from CPS when we were doing emergency foster care but all of those were arranged in advance via phone.

:iagree:

[TXBeth]

I'm only on page 10 of reading but just wanted to share our story....

 

This was with the local police, not CPS but it was equally as difficult. One December afternoon (this was about 8 or 9 years ago), there was a knock on my door. I looked out the window and saw two uniformed police officers and immediately thought something was wrong with my husband!

 

I opened the door and they started questioning me as to whether or not we were having a "domestic disturbance." I answered no. They asked to see my husband and I explained he was at work.

 

They asked to come in a "question my children." I informed them I was uncomfortable with that. They said they had received a call that my husband beat me and pulls our kids around by their hair. I told them that was absolutely untrue and asked to call my husband at work so that he could come home. (His office is less than a mile from home and across the street from the police station.) They refuse to allow me to do that and kept insisting I let them in.

 

I stood on the porch and politely told them I was feeling intimidated and that I was not comfortable with them coming in. They told me to move aside because they were coming in with our without my permission to "examine my children." They went right by me into the house.

 

They walked around, smelled my chicken baking in the oven, saw my dd playing an educational game on the computer and found my ds vacuuming the hallway.

 

They asked my kids some questions and then asked me if I knew of anyone who would report us. I was so traumatized! My ds (he was about 10 at the time) kept saying, "It's ok, Mom, they must have had the wrong house."

 

The point is they came by on a 911 call that my husband was beating us when he wasn't even home. They violated our rights and came in without permission. After that experience, I can't feel comfortable with ever letting anyone "investigating a charge" into my home for the heck of it. They need to have a little something else to back them up.

 

Back to reading....

 

:grouphug: How scary! I think they did the right thing, because they had reason to believe (911 call) that your kids were in immediate danger. In that situation, I don't think they are required to have a warrant in order to enter, even without your permission. But that must have been awful for you!

[cindergretta]

:grouphug: How scary! I think they did the right thing, because they had reason to believe (911 call) that your kids were in immediate danger. In that situation, I don't think they are required to have a warrant in order to enter, even without your permission. But that must have been awful for you!

 

:iagree: :grouphug: It is scary as all get out, but they are operating off the assumption that your aggressor is behind the door holding a gun to your head to say the right things, etc. :(

 

My darling little angels (now 16 & 18, then 3 & 5) called 911 repeatedly and hung up. Yeah, we were on base. Plain clothes police showed up as well as the MPs. They "closed in" on our street from both sides, all very dramatic and TV like. I'm standing in the kitchen window, gawking, wondering "Wow, what on earth is going on?!" Then they walked up to OUR front door and I almost DIED. Once they sussed out the situation, they were extremely friendly and kind and talked with my dc about calling 911... (Man, I was SO embarrassed!!!!!)

[Jpoy85]

That's creepy. I would think they would trust the doctor who has seen her all her life.

 

I honestly don't know what else I could do to prove it. She's physically active and mature, just very small.

 

The bright side is that we live in an impoverished area (though we are financially stable). Most social workers here would probably take one look and think their visit was a waste of time. I just worry about it.

 

Because you have to figure its all connected. The Guardian At Lituem, The judge, the caseworker, the supervisor, the counselor, the parenting class teacher, the doctors, etc....they ALL are "partners" with CPS. AKA: They all have a hand in the giant pot of MONEY. Why do you think when you have an open case with CPS they make you go to THEIR counselors that they approve of? They make you go to their parenting classes where and when they say? Because its all connected. Thats why they wouldnt believe her Pediatrician- they wanted to get what they wanted and they didnt want to take it from someone that wasnt helping with their paycheck/agenda.

[Joanne]

Because you have to figure its all connected. The Guardian At Lituem, The judge, the caseworker, the supervisor, the counselor, the parenting class teacher, the doctors, etc....they ALL are "partners" with CPS. AKA: They all have a hand in the giant pot of MONEY. Why do you think when you have an open case with CPS they make you go to THEIR counselors that they approve of? They make you go to their parenting classes where and when they say? Because its all connected. Thats why they wouldnt believe her Pediatrician- they wanted to get what they wanted and they didnt want to take it from someone that wasnt helping with their paycheck/agenda.

 

Because we have to be licensed, reviewed, held accountable, audited, and known to provide qualitity, positive, productive, and theraupetic intervention.

 

It's a system of accountability. I assure you I am not making *anything like* major money over state-ordered clients.

[CAMom]

:grouphug: How scary! I think they did the right thing, because they had reason to believe (911 call) that your kids were in immediate danger. In that situation, I don't think they are required to have a warrant in order to enter, even without your permission. But that must have been awful for you!

 

:iagree: :grouphug: It is scary as all get out, but they are operating off the assumption that your aggressor is behind the door holding a gun to your head to say the right things, etc. :(

 

 

I was standing outside on the front porch with them (with the front door closed) asking over and over again if I could call my husband (the accused) to come home from work. So, there could not have been an aggressor with a gun to my head.

 

Also, if I was being beaten at that exact moment-enough to warrant a 911 call, would I not have shown some physical sign? At least been disheveled or have my make up smeared from crying, etc.? Nothing was adding up for them to actually to suspect what they were suspecting.

 

Honestly, I suppose they could show up at any moment and as long as they claimed they thought there was some sort of immediate danger, they could just barge right in. Still makes me very, very uneasy.:glare:

[TranquilMind]

Just this past year I had a pediatrician (not ours but the one at the hospital after delivery) explain to me, not so nicely, that if I should choose (wrongly in her opinion) to not stay past 24 hours, and then not bring the baby back at 48 hours to get her bilirubin re-checked, that she would have CPS and the police visit me for the welfare of the baby... The 8lb, 38 week baby. :glare:

 

 

 

Wow!

[LucyStoner]

Because we have to be licensed, reviewed, held accountable, audited, and known to provide qualitity, positive, productive, and theraupetic intervention.

 

It's a system of accountability. I assure you I am not making *anything like* major money over state-ordered clients.

 

Exactly. "giant pot of money" is a really unfair characterization of a state agency that has a huge job with a way too small budget generally. My friend qualified for food stamps when she first started working at CPS. No one is getting rich off this. The number of children who should be removed and are not far outstrips the unfortunate cases where a parent is wrongly accused.

[WishboneDawn]

I was standing outside on the front porch with them (with the front door closed) asking over and over again if I could call my husband (the accused) to come home from work. So, there could not have been an aggressor with a gun to my head.

 

Also, if I was being beaten at that exact moment-enough to warrant a 911 call, would I not have shown some physical sign? At least been disheveled or have my make up smeared from crying, etc.? Nothing was adding up for them to actually to suspect what they were suspecting.

 

Honestly, I suppose they could show up at any moment and as long as they claimed they thought there was some sort of immediate danger, they could just barge right in. Still makes me very, very uneasy.:glare:

 

Honestly, I think they're probably usd to dealing with people who cover this stuff up and regardless of whether your husband was there or not, they had a call about violence and had to make sure everyone was okay. That was their priority.

 

They get calls about what.people think is happening, not what is happening. They might have been thinking that maybe the caller mistook an older child for the wife. In that case you could have been stalling them while she need medical attention inside.

 

They see crazy, illogical, nonsensical stuff so just because we present them with a logical, plausible scenario it doesn't mean they don't still have a duy to make sure evryone is safe. The one time they walk away wihout checking could be the time a person is dying on the other side of that door.

[Renee in NC]

Because you have to figure its all connected. The Guardian At Lituem, The judge, the caseworker, the supervisor, the counselor, the parenting class teacher, the doctors, etc....they ALL are "partners" with CPS. AKA: They all have a hand in the giant pot of MONEY. Why do you think when you have an open case with CPS they make you go to THEIR counselors that they approve of? They make you go to their parenting classes where and when they say? Because its all connected. Thats why they wouldnt believe her Pediatrician- they wanted to get what they wanted and they didnt want to take it from someone that wasnt helping with their paycheck/agenda.

 

As a Guardian Ad Litem in training, you are dead wrong. What giant pot of money? There isn't one for GALs at all. I don't get paid, I am not in it for money, and I am not a partner with CPS. I actually got involved *because* I wanted to make sure that someone was looking out for the child. Both the parents involved and CPS are biased, so an unbiased person can look at the situation from the outside.

[Parrothead]

Honestly, I think they're probably usd to dealing with people who cover this stuff up and regardless of whether your husband was there or not, they had a call about violence and had to make sure everyone was okay. That was their priority.

 

There is a very fine line in situations like this. Unfortunately it could have all been settled legally if the officers had simply asked permission to enter the house.

 

Common sense did not prevail and CAMom's rights were violated. The officers have to have probable cause to enter without a warrant. A phone call to 911 from a neighbor isn't probable cause. (False calls happen by the hundreds all over this country every. single. day.) If when they arrived they saw marks/dishelved mom/crying kids that would have been PC to enter the way they did.

 

CAMom should have reported these officers to a supervisor. And documented what happened. And contacted an attorney.

[Hedgehogs4]

Do not give anyone access to your home, not even the ability to look through the door into the house unless they have a warrant. period. Go call an attorney immediately, and as I do think it is a good idea as homeschoolers to have an attorney secured in the case of such an unfortunate event. Not promoting one over another, just saying I think it is a good idea.

[kalanamak]

 

Honestly, I suppose they could show up at any moment and as long as they claimed they thought there was some sort of immediate danger, they could just barge right in. Still makes me very, very uneasy.:glare:

 

If they do not check out such a call, and something happens, they are sued, sued, sued. At least in my state the town or city would lose millions.

[stripe]

Love it! My parents are from Glasgow, so I have heard this word a lot in my lifetime. They also used the word "midden".

So does the grandma in Katie Morag books! :) It's a great word.

[jelbe5]

So does the grandma in Katie Morag books! :) It's a great word.

 

I have 2 of those books - a gift from a cousin who visited some years ago. Now I have to go find those books!

 

ETA - and the men wear kilts!

Edited August 16, 2012 by jelbe5

[Parrothead]

If they do not check out such a call, and something happens, they are sued, sued, sued. At least in my state the town or city would lose millions.

But they could also be sued, sued, sued for violating people's civil rights. There must be adequate probable cause. An adequately put together, non-hysterical, housewife offering to call her hubby at work and have him come home is not adequate probably cause.

 

Again one must know their rights. If it had been me in CAmom's situation I'd have had someone's butt in a sling.

[*Lulu*]

But they could also be sued, sued, sued for violating people's civil rights. There must be adequate probable cause. An adequately put together, non-hysterical, housewife offering to call her hubby at work and have him come home is not adequate probably cause.

 

Again one must know their rights. If it had been me in CAmom's situation I'd have had someone's butt in a sling.

 

:iagree: with the entire post, but most especially with the bolded sentence. I am a pretty laid back lady, but that sort of experience would have left me furious.

[garddwr]

I think what makes so many of us afraid of CPS is that while we know the risk of our children being taken from us on false premises is very small, the potential damage if it were to happen is horrifying. There is nothing I care about more than my kids and their security and happiness, and I cannot imagine what it would do to them to be forcibly removed from me for even a single day. And even the threat of being taken, of having our family broken apart, would do irreparable damage to every family member's sense of security. That is why people who have had run-ins with CPS report PTSD-like symptoms as a result. The workings of the system itself can amount to abuse in the lives of those it impacts, and that doesn't seem to be adequately taken into account in the way the system functions. I personally wish there was a greater emphasis on making support and services available to families who need them and less on threats of removal. Ideally I think there would be better support and education available to all parents and potential parents from the beginning--better to prevent problems from developing than to try to fix them once established.

 

Some kind of system to protect children is unfortunately necessary--we are all aware of cases of horrific abuse within families. Unfortunately our current system does not seem to be particularly effective either in preventing and mitigating the effects of actual abuse or in minimizing its own potential damages to families.

 

--Sarah

[Dobela]

As a Guardian Ad Litem in training, you are dead wrong. What giant pot of money? There isn't one for GALs at all. I don't get paid, I am not in it for money, and I am not a partner with CPS. I actually got involved *because* I wanted to make sure that someone was looking out for the child. Both the parents involved and CPS are biased, so an unbiased person can look at the situation from the outside.

This depends on the state, and the courts. In my state the ad litem is an attorney. The attorney is paid from the same set of funds as the case workers, the judge, and the attorneys for CPS. We do have CASA (court appointed special advocates) volunteers that are not paid, and are meant to give an unbiased view to the courts, but only a select few children have CASA assigned to them. First the case worker or the ad litem has to request one, the judge then has to review all the reasons why one might be needed, and then, if the judge chooses, an advocate can be requested. Some judges never ask for advocates.

 

 

In my experience as a foster parent in my state, very few of the really good case workers stay employed with the state. They are too overworked, and too frustrated by a broken system if they are really wanting to a a job well. The ones that remain stay behind and often do a poor job. Ther eseems to be no consequences for a poorly done job. It took 2 years for our dd's adoption to be finalized. We had 2 case workers that would literally come to court unprepared and then actually tell the judge that court ordered paperwork was not completed 'just because I didn't want to do it.' The adoption took so long that the federal government started leveling fines against the state, yet these women still have their jobs. On the day we were to actually finalize, the CPS attorney arrived with incomplete paperwork and our names spelled incorrectly, repeatedly, and said she didn't have enough time to do a spell check. Really?? 2 years isn't long enough? She wanted to postpone the adoption AGAIN so she could have 6 more weeks to do a spell check.

 

If someone showed up at my door, they would not be allowed inside without a warrant. They would not have access to my children unless I have my own witnesses with them. I was on the wrong side of a false accusation and was seen as guilty before I was seen as innocent.

[sunnylady303]

I think what makes so many of us afraid of CPS is that while we know the risk of our children being taken from us on false premises is very small, the potential damage if it were to happen is horrifying. There is nothing I care about more than my kids and their security and happiness, and I cannot imagine what it would do to them to be forcibly removed from me for even a single day. And even the threat of being taken, of having our family broken apart, would do irreparable damage to every family member's sense of security. That is why people who have had run-ins with CPS report PTSD-like symptoms as a result. The workings of the system itself can amount to abuse in the lives of those it impacts, and that doesn't seem to be adequately taken into account in the way the system functions. I personally wish there was a greater emphasis on making support and services available to families who need them and less on threats of removal. Ideally I think there would be better support and education available to all parents and potential parents from the beginning--better to prevent problems from developing than to try to fix them once established.

 

Some kind of system to protect children is unfortunately necessary--we are all aware of cases of horrific abuse within families. Unfortunately our current system does not seem to be particularly effective either in preventing and mitigating the effects of actual abuse or in minimizing its own potential damages to families.

 

--Sarah

 

This post is wise. I feel like while something to protect children is sadly necessary and most folks are trying to do their best, something isn't working either way.

 

And to the bolded part, I think that is extremely insightful. I was diagnosed with PTSD after our experience (to add to my cocktail of anxiety issues) with CPS. Most people don't realize that happens. And although the case worker who did the damage was fired, there was no attention paid to helping to ameliorate the effects on me or DH or our children (who were luckily shielded from most of it.)

 

The OP was only about what to do if they come knocking, but it has given me even more food for thought about what is wrong with them. And I had plenty already. :)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

There is a very fine line in situations like this. Unfortunately it could have all been settled legally if the officers had simply asked permission to enter the house.

 

Common sense did not prevail and CAMom's rights were violated. The officers have to have probable cause to enter without a warrant. A phone call to 911 from a neighbor isn't probable cause. (False calls happen by the hundreds all over this country every. single. day.) If when they arrived they saw marks/dishelved mom/crying kids that would have been PC to enter the way they did.

 

CAMom should have reported these officers to a supervisor. And documented what happened. And contacted an attorney.

 

If the officers reasonably believed someone's safety was in jeopardy, they had probable cause to enter the home. It is impossible to determine whether what they did was correct or not based on a post on a message board.

[Element]

If they do not check out such a call, and something happens, they are sued, sued, sued. At least in my state the town or city would lose millions.

 

Yeah, I'm on this side of the issue. I had a very similar situation to CAMom's situation when I was very young and first married (no kids.) There was absolutely no fight going on, but dh and I were installing a window unit in our first apartment. He was inside and I was outside. Someone said we were screaming at each other and fighting, so the officers came. They immediately separated us (one went in the apartment with me, the other took him outside) and got our stories. It wasn't a noise issue, because we had actually been very quiet. We later discovered it was probably our neighbors who were fighting because they continued to do so nearly every single day until we moved. Another neighbor must have heard screaming through the wall, looked out and saw me, and figured it was us.

 

Anyway, yes, it was annoying and it took up 30 minutes of my life. I wouldn't call it scary, but it was definitely alarming. However, I'm willing to have a weird mishap once or twice in my life if that means the one time there is someone behind me or someone I love with a gun to my head, they insist on coming in. It's just not that big of a deal to me. I have nothing to hide. I was going to say I probably feel this way because I live 2 blocks from a jail and 1 block from an area where many homeless individuals stay, (and we have had *2* inmates escape in the past 3 years.. how does that happen?!?) but I think I would have the same feeling if I lived in the middle of nowhere.

 

Full disclosure: We live in the least friendly state for gun ownership. I think people in my state are more reliant upon LE to protect them because they cannot always protect themselves. I've lived here all my life, and I just wanted to admit that this factor probably has a hand in how I feel about LE. It's hard to discuss this without going into the political realm, so I'll leave it at that.

[garddwr]

Yeah, I'm on this side of the issue. I had a very similar situation to CAMom's situation when I was very young and first married (no kids.) There was absolutely no fight going on, but dh and I were installing a window unit in our first apartment. He was inside and I was outside. Someone said we were screaming at each other and fighting, so the officers came. They immediately separated us (one went in the apartment with me, the other took him outside) and got our stories. It wasn't a noise issue, because we had actually been very quiet. We later discovered it was probably our neighbors who were fighting because they continued to do so nearly every single day until we moved. Another neighbor must have heard screaming through the wall, looked out and saw me, and figured it was us.

 

Anyway, yes, it was annoying and it took up 30 minutes of my life. I wouldn't call it scary, but it was definitely alarming. However, I'm willing to have a weird mishap once or twice in my life if that means the one time there is someone behind me or someone I love with a gun to my head, they insist on coming in. It's just not that big of a deal to me. I have nothing to hide. I was going to say I probably feel this way because I live 2 blocks from a jail and 1 block from an area where many homeless individuals stay, (and we have had *2* inmates escape in the past 3 years.. how does that happen?!?) but I think I would have the same feeling if I lived in the middle of nowhere.

 

Your story reminded me of a funny story my parents tell from their newlywed days. My dad has always enjoyed cooking, and one day he was home making bread--and kneading the bread by pounding it energetically with his fists. My parents lived in a small apartment and sound carried very well--their upstairs neighbor heard the pounding and came running to their door yelling for him to stop--she thought he was beating my mom. When the door opened there he was in the kitchen pounding the bread dough:lol:

[beaners]

Just this past year I had a pediatrician (not ours but the one at the hospital after delivery) explain to me, not so nicely, that if I should choose (wrongly in her opinion) to not stay past 24 hours, and then not bring the baby back at 48 hours to get her bilirubin re-checked, that she would have CPS and the police visit me for the welfare of the baby... The 8lb, 38 week baby. :glare:

 

To this day, when I am well dressed, hair done, and not recovering from delivery, I want to go sit down, and have a calm rational discussion on why what she did was wrong.

 

Beyond that, she blamed me "most likely not making it back in to check the baby's billi levels" because I have so many children to care for at home.

 

Goodness, woman. Make it obvious you're biased because I have more children than she approves of... Sigh. If it wasn't so very serious, you'd want to make a crack about one of the childrens' nine fathers could bring them in. Or maybe my local drug dealer. Sigh. I was pretty irritated by that one.

 

I had the same problem after the birth of my second child, but it was the nurse at the hospital. She threatened CPS if I tried to leave "AMA" at 24 hours, although the hospital's pediatrician and my OB had already cleared us. (So it was her opinion we should stay. She said that the hospital's pediatrician was worried about our bilirubin levels, although there was no note of it when the other pediatrician from the practice looked at our file and discharged us the next day. The second pediatrician, the nurse doing my discharge and my own pediatrician were clueless as to why we were told we wouldn't be discharged.) We had to cancel the appointment we had already made for 48 hours at our own pediatrician. Between the induction for that birth and the threats that were made to keep me from discharging at 24 hours, those were the worst days of my life.

 

Coincidentally, we were discharged at 24 hours after my most recent birth, also an induction, earlier this month. The numbers were almost identical. The difference between hospitals was so pleasantly shocking.

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by CAMom

I was standing outside on the front porch with them (with the front door closed) asking over and over again if I could call my husband (the accused) to come home from work. So, there could not have been an aggressor with a gun to my head.

 

Also, if I was being beaten at that exact moment-enough to warrant a 911 call, would I not have shown some physical sign? At least been disheveled or have my make up smeared from crying, etc.? Nothing was adding up for them to actually to suspect what they were suspecting.

 

Honestly, I suppose they could show up at any moment and as long as they claimed they thought there was some sort of immediate danger, they could just barge right in. Still makes me very, very uneasy.

 

It's important to make the distinction that this (egregious) case was not CPS. It was police. The only similarity is being government job roles. The function, role, and power issues are different.

 

It would not be accurate to make a decision about CPS based on what police do.

[CAMom]

It's important to make the distinction that this (egregious) case was not CPS. It was police. The only similarity is being government job roles. The function, role, and power issues are different.

 

It would not be accurate to make a decision about CPS based on what police do.

 

I did make that distinction in my original post.

 

Chucki, thanks for your input since I know you have law enforcement experience.

 

We did call HSLDA at the time and were advised that, yes, my rights had been violated but that we probably wouldn't want to cause a stink since my kids weren't traumatized; only I was.:tongue_smilie:

 

They suggested we call the police department to talk to the sergeant. My dh did that. He called, explained what happened and told the officer that his wife was quite traumatized. The conversation went very well. The sergeant apologized for the way things were handled and gave my dh advice on what to do if something like that ever happened again.

 

My dh asked for a copy of the police report and the sergeant very cordially agreed saying it would be good for us to have it handy just in case anyone ever made a false call again. We could prove someone was harassing us.

 

When two cops show up at your door and your first thought is, "OMG! My husband must be dead!" and then they accuse your husband of beating you and abusing your kids instead and demand to "examine your children" it can be pretty overwhelming. I didn't even have any idea what "examine your children" meant.

 

When I told them over and over that I was feeling intimidated, they never backed off, they just kept pressing and eventually pushed past me and into my house. It wasn't until they saw my kids and found me crying at the door that they became a little more gentle with the situation.

 

It took me a long time not to jump when I heard a knock on the door.

[mommymilkies]

I think what makes so many of us afraid of CPS is that while we know the risk of our children being taken from us on false premises is very small, the potential damage if it were to happen is horrifying. There is nothing I care about more than my kids and their security and happiness, and I cannot imagine what it would do to them to be forcibly removed from me for even a single day. And even the threat of being taken, of having our family broken apart, would do irreparable damage to every family member's sense of security. That is why people who have had run-ins with CPS report PTSD-like symptoms as a result. The workings of the system itself can amount to abuse in the lives of those it impacts, and that doesn't seem to be adequately taken into account in the way the system functions. I personally wish there was a greater emphasis on making support and services available to families who need them and less on threats of removal. Ideally I think there would be better support and education available to all parents and potential parents from the beginning--better to prevent problems from developing than to try to fix them once established.

 

Some kind of system to protect children is unfortunately necessary--we are all aware of cases of horrific abuse within families. Unfortunately our current system does not seem to be particularly effective either in preventing and mitigating the effects of actual abuse or in minimizing its own potential damages to families.

 

--Sarah

Absolutely. Well said.

[KrissiK]

I think what makes so many of us afraid of CPS is that while we know the risk of our children being taken from us on false premises is very small, the potential damage if it were to happen is horrifying. There is nothing I care about more than my kids and their security and happiness, and I cannot imagine what it would do to them to be forcibly removed from me for even a single day. And even the threat of being taken, of having our family broken apart, would do irreparable damage to every family member's sense of security. That is why people who have had run-ins with CPS report PTSD-like symptoms as a result. The workings of the system itself can amount to abuse in the lives of those it impacts, and that doesn't seem to be adequately taken into account in the way the system functions. I personally wish there was a greater emphasis on making support and services available to families who need them and less on threats of removal. Ideally I think there would be better support and education available to all parents and potential parents from the beginning--better to prevent problems from developing than to try to fix them once established.

 

Some kind of system to protect children is unfortunately necessary--we are all aware of cases of horrific abuse within families. Unfortunately our current system does not seem to be particularly effective either in preventing and mitigating the effects of actual abuse or in minimizing its own potential damages to families.

 

--Sarah

 

:iagree: on a similar note, we are fost/adopting 2 little girls and are not finalized yet, which means we have social workers in and out of our home on a regular basis. We have never had any problems, and the social workers have been nice, but it is always very stressful because they have the power. Now, granted we are in a different situation because the girls have already been removed, and I realize it's different than other situations posted here, but... it is a stressful thing when someone comes in to your home with their own biases and makes judgements that can ruin lives. Every time a sw comes I think, is my house clean? ( but not too clean, don't want to be perceived as OCD), yes we take the kids to church(we're teaching them morals), but not too often (we're not religious fanatics). Yes, the kids can play video games (we're mainstream, let them have fun), but they have a limited time and it's PBSkids, not Halo. And the whole time I'm thinking, if I do anything wrong, they can just take these precious girls away from us. It's not a fun way to live.

[Parrothead]

I did make that distinction in my original post.

 

Chucki, thanks for your input since I know you have law enforcement experience.

 

We did call HSLDA at the time and were advised that, yes, my rights had been violated but that we probably wouldn't want to cause a stink since my kids weren't traumatized; only I was.:tongue_smilie:

 

They suggested we call the police department to talk to the sergeant. My dh did that. He called, explained what happened and told the officer that his wife was quite traumatized. The conversation went very well. The sergeant apologized for the way things were handled and gave my dh advice on what to do if something like that ever happened again.

 

My dh asked for a copy of the police report and the sergeant very cordially agreed saying it would be good for us to have it handy just in case anyone ever made a false call again. We could prove someone was harassing us.

 

When two cops show up at your door and your first thought is, "OMG! My husband must be dead!" and then they accuse your husband of beating you and abusing your kids instead and demand to "examine your children" it can be pretty overwhelming. I didn't even have any idea what "examine your children" meant.

 

When I told them over and over that I was feeling intimidated, they never backed off, they just kept pressing and eventually pushed past me and into my house. It wasn't until they saw my kids and found me crying at the door that they became a little more gentle with the situation.

 

It took me a long time not to jump when I heard a knock on the door.

Hopefully behind the scenes that sergeant liberally used his pen to make notes in files.

 

It is carp like this that gives good cops a bad name. Sorry you had to deal with too much testosterone.

[jennsmile]

Yeah, I'm on this side of the issue. I had a very similar situation to CAMom's situation when I was very young and first married (no kids.) There was absolutely no fight going on, but dh and I were installing a window unit in our first apartment. He was inside and I was outside. Someone said we were screaming at each other and fighting, so the officers came. They immediately separated us (one went in the apartment with me, the other took him outside) and got our stories. It wasn't a noise issue, because we had actually been very quiet. We later discovered it was probably our neighbors who were fighting because they continued to do so nearly every single day until we moved. Another neighbor must have heard screaming through the wall, looked out and saw me, and figured it was us.

 

Anyway, yes, it was annoying and it took up 30 minutes of my life. I wouldn't call it scary, but it was definitely alarming. However, I'm willing to have a weird mishap once or twice in my life if that means the one time there is someone behind me or someone I love with a gun to my head, they insist on coming in. It's just not that big of a deal to me. I have nothing to hide. I was going to say I probably feel this way because I live 2 blocks from a jail and 1 block from an area where many homeless individuals stay, (and we have had *2* inmates escape in the past 3 years.. how does that happen?!?) but I think I would have the same feeling if I lived in the middle of nowhere.

 

Full disclosure: We live in the least friendly state for gun ownership. I think people in my state are more reliant upon LE to protect them because they cannot always protect themselves. I've lived here all my life, and I just wanted to admit that this factor probably has a hand in how I feel about LE. It's hard to discuss this without going into the political realm, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Cops were called on us a newlyweds too. Thankfully I answered the door and my husband was right there and they realized it wasn't us but that we had heard our neighbors. They were out walking and the cops instantly recognized them and went to chat with them instead.

[LucyStoner]

:iagree: on a similar note, we are fost/adopting 2 little girls and are not finalized yet, which means we have social workers in and out of our home on a regular basis. We have never had any problems, and the social workers have been nice, but it is always very stressful because they have the power. Now, granted we are in a different situation because the girls have already been removed, and I realize it's different than other situations posted here, but... it is a stressful thing when someone comes in to your home with their own biases and makes judgements that can ruin lives. Every time a sw comes I think, is my house clean? ( but not too clean, don't want to be perceived as OCD), yes we take the kids to church(we're teaching them morals), but not too often (we're not religious fanatics). Yes, the kids can play video games (we're mainstream, let them have fun), but they have a limited time and it's PBSkids, not Halo. And the whole time I'm thinking, if I do anything wrong, they can just take these precious girls away from us. It's not a fun way to live.

 

But OTOH, your family is being blessed with 2 daughters and your daughters were presumably protected from a bad life because someone took the time to report (perhaps often) and CPS did their job and got them out and safe. I get that it is always stressful to have people you don't know in your home with pose to make decisions about your family. I really do. But your story is an example of WHY we need CPS.

Edited August 16, 2012 by kijipt