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My husband works for CPS. I showed him this thread, and he said that if CPS showed up unannounced at our own door his advice would be to not let them in and to ask them to get a warrant. He said this because while most of the CPS workers he has known over the years are perfectly normal, reasonable people there is always the chance that the one caseworker at your door is the one nutjob with an axe to grind and way too much power to do it with and you ought to be prepared accordingly........

 

Thank him for his opinion please. :)

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THIS!

 

My experience is that it only takes one ignorant person in a position of authority to make your life a living h*ll if they prove to be over-zealous jerks. I would love to have enough knowledge and resources to head them off at the pass.

 

 

This is why all of us need to insist that our Constitutional rights be respected. It actually helps other people.

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My husband works for CPS. I showed him this thread, and he said that if CPS showed up unannounced at our own door his advice would be to not let them in and to ask them to get a warrant. He said this because while most of the CPS workers he has known over the years are perfectly normal, reasonable people there is always the chance that the one caseworker at your door is the one nutjob with an axe to grind and way too much power to do it with and you ought to be prepared accordingly........

 

 

Yes, we all have to prepare for the nutjob in authority. Your husband is so right.

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My husband works for CPS. I showed him this thread, and he said that if CPS showed up unannounced at our own door his advice would be to not let them in and to ask them to get a warrant. He said this because while most of the CPS workers he has known over the years are perfectly normal, reasonable people there is always the chance that the one caseworker at your door is the one nutjob with an axe to grind and way too much power to do it with and you ought to be prepared accordingly........

 

So, when he shows up unannounced, he brings a search warrant, expecting to be turned away? (Not snark, sincere question.)

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I truly physically did not have enough milk and she made me breastfeed for 7 hours once until I had bleeding nipples. My Mom didn't have enough milk either; perhaps it was hereditary, but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying! Once documentation was in hand, my husband wrote a legal letter to her telling her to back off. She did, thank God.

 

 

I bet!

 

How does a lactation consultant make someone bf for 7 hours?

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I'm sorry you had this experience, and you handled it great. I once took my infant to the doctor on the implied threat of a lactation consultant just to document she was doing well. I truly physically did not have enough milk and she made me breastfeed for 7 hours once until I had bleeding nipples. My Mom didn't have enough milk either; perhaps it was hereditary, but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying! Once documentation was in hand, my husband wrote a legal letter to her telling her to back off. She did, thank God.

 

 

I don't understand this post. Do I have any of this correct:

 

1. Someone threatened you concerning your baby's welfare. Who? Why?

2. You went to a lactation consultant who physically forced you to nurse your baby for 7 hours until your nipples bled? How did she force you? At gunpoint? How did she make the baby nurse for 7 hours?

3. The lactation consultant then gave you documentation that the baby was well. What does that mean? Baby demonstrated ability to nurse for 7 hours?

4. Then your husband wrote a legal letter (a certified letter?) telling her to back off and she did? Back off from what? Was she continuing to force you to breastfeed? Or was the letter written to whoever threatened you concerning your baby's welfare?

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So, when he shows up unannounced, he brings a search warrant, expecting to be turned away? (Not snark, sincere question.)

 

Yeah, I'm curious too. I mean, if you have a search warrant, then you can't be turned away. But otherwise, does he just assume all is well or does he go get a warrant or does he glance inside before being turned away, think, this house clearly isn't swimming in poop like that anonymous complaint, and let it go?

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I don't understand this post. Do I have any of this correct:

 

1. Someone threatened you concerning your baby's welfare. Who? Why?

2. You went to a lactation consultant who physically forced you to nurse your baby for 7 hours until your nipples bled? How did she force you? At gunpoint? How did she make the baby nurse for 7 hours?

3. The lactation consultant then gave you documentation that the baby was well. What does that mean? Baby demonstrated ability to nurse for 7 hours?

4. Then your husband wrote a legal letter (a certified letter?) telling her to back off and she did? Back off from what? Was she continuing to force you to breastfeed? Or was the letter written to whoever threatened you concerning your baby's welfare?

 

I realize there are some details I did not give, and I'm not comfortable doing that on a public site. Suffice it to say, yes, I was threatened on a twofold basis: 1) baby wasn't getting enough milk so I must not be breastfeeding long enough and when she came back, baby had better (meet certain criteria) and 2) I made an offhand remark about how I'd like to take a vacation from all this exhaustion. I meant NOTHING by it. Just venting. Turns out lactation consultant lived in and worked with people who lived in neighborhoods where abandonment actually happened routinely. She thought I was going to abandon the baby or something.

 

We had to call her off by legal means.

 

I should have known better, but like I said, I was an exhausted new Mom, not thinking clearly. My sister once made an offhand remark when she was in a hospital, decades ago. She was just venting and meant absolutely nothing by it. Some nurse overheard her and they slapped this perfectly sane young girl in a psych ward on lockdown for three days. People were literally screaming and banging their heads on the wall. She had nightmares for the rest of her life about that.

 

Motto: ALWAYS keep your business to yourself.

 

Idiot.

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I'm sorry you had this experience, and you handled it great.

 

Thanks. It was one of the most stressful times our family has ever been through. The idea to take our son in to see his doctor came from that article I linked. I also lined up close friends who could act as character witnesses for us (our Pastors, a police officer friend, friends who have adopted). Again, it was not necessary, but it helped my peace of mind. For weeks, whenever someone knocked at the door my kids would hide and my heart was in my throat. I had worked as a social worker. When I did I truly wanted to help others. I was not supposed to be in a situation like that; where I was afraid my children (mostly my disabled son) would be taken away.

 

I am glad your situation was also resolved.

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This is my experience, as well. There are nice-looking, well-meaning people out there who have no idea how to keep a home clean or how to keep children safe. I've been very surprised on several occasions (IRL) to learn that someone who was being 'persecuted' by CPS really was withholding food from a child as a punishment, or neglecting necessary medical care, or living in squalor.

 

I agree, but it is also depressing to me that I would need to have strangers inspect my house, copies of letters from dcfs, and a video of my home (no squalor, I know a couple people on here who can attest to that) so that people don't think I'm lying for sympathy. Sure there are wackos out there, but I try to give people the benefit of a doubt if it sounds reasonable.

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Does HSLDA still recommend subverting the interview by asking your CPS caseworker where she expects to spend eternity? I remember that being part of their sample dialogues of how CPS visits go with vs. without HSLDA advice, but their "what to do when CPS knocks on your door" seems to be members-only content now.

I don't ever remember anything like that coming *from HSLDA.* I've seen several lists like that, none of which invoked any kind of religious verbage.

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So, when he shows up unannounced, he brings a search warrant, expecting to be turned away? (Not snark, sincere question.)

 

He does go to homes unannounced at times as part of the job. He says that he would understand completely if he went to someone's place unannounced and that person insisted on a warrant. If the concern he was tasked to investigate was compelling enough Dh said he would then just get the warrant, and that he has had to do that now and then in the past.

 

If he didn't think that the matter was something life-threatening or involving immediate danger he said he would just leave. He says that normally in that case he would later phone or write the family a letter asking for a meeting at an agreed on date. He says that this happens a lot and that it would be perfectly okay with him. He says this doesn't bother him, it's when people set up times and dates for meetings and then aren't there or forget that annoy him.

 

He would also want a lawyer involved, if it were his family. He doesn't say it, but I get the impression he knows about a time or two when those discretionary powers that CPS has were not used appropriately. I do get the impression that most of the time that is not the case.

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I don't. Mine probably stems from growing up a mile from the maximum security prison where death row inmates were housed. It didn't have a fence around it until I was about ten. Helicopters searching for escaped inmates were an often enough occurrence that to this day, that's still my first assumption about what a low-flying helicopter is doing. I remember the bloodhounds tracking to the crawls pace under our house. I remember looking out of my kitchen window when home alone to see two men in orange jumpsuits hiding in the ditch behind my house.

 

:eek:

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- I have seen parents argue that it is normal and understandable for a house to have dirty cloth diapers on the floor, pet feces on the floor, or - this was the one that really stunned me - that an ordinary mishap could involve offering your CPS caseworker a cup of tea and there just happening to be a cockroach in the cup. Any of these parents might certainly be convinced, and might spread the word to others, that CPS will take your children for "an ordinary messy house." (Boy, is the devil ever in the details on that one!)

 

Okay, sorry, this is why threads like this freak me out. Are you saying that a family that gets a cockroach infestation is unfit to parent their children? Or that a mom that's distracted enough not to notice the cockroach when she's serving tea in a very stressful situation is not fit to parent her children? I mean, yes, that's really, really gross, but is it "unfit to parent" gross?

 

How about a family whose cat or dog has accidents throughout the house that mom doesn't find immediately? How about a family where the toddler or the dog unloads the diaper pail several times a day, and the mom can't keep up with it?

 

It's easy to condemn when that's not the thing you deal with in your household. This kind of thing just makes me wonder what it is in my home that would be over the line in someone else's judgment. And it makes me give a lot less weight to all that advice not to worry about keeping a spotless house while my kids are young and I'm pregnant....

 

ETA: The first list like this that was given, about cat feces ground into the carpet throughout the house, no unspoiled food in the fridge and none in the pantry, etc... that all seemed objectively over any reasonable line. So I do think there can be cause for CPS involvement in "messy house" situations... but IMO the standard ought to be really, really extreme.... they are getting a single snapshot of your home, after all.

Edited by cottonmama
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I would let them in. Considering that I have a good friend who is a social worker in our county, and that the director is someone I know socially, I think we're good.;)

 

Most social workers are good people who do what they do because they care. My friend works long hours for little pay. I have looked at the investigation forms, discussed them with her at length, and talked to other social workers, too.

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Okay, sorry, this is why threads like this freak me out. Are you saying that a family that gets a cockroach infestation is unfit to parent their children? Or that a mom that's distracted enough not to notice the cockroach when she's serving tea in a very stressful situation is not fit to parent her children? I mean, yes, that's really, really gross, but is it "unfit to parent" gross?

 

How about a family whose cat or dog has accidents throughout the house that mom doesn't find immediately? How about a family where the toddler or the dog unloads the diaper pail several times a day, and the mom can't keep up with it?

 

It's easy to condemn when that's not the thing you deal with in your household. This kind of thing just makes me wonder what it is in my home that would be over the line in someone else's judgment. And it makes me give a lot less weight to all that advice not to worry about keeping a spotless house while my kids are young and I'm pregnant....

 

Nobody's perfect, but I think it's pretty reasonable to expect a mom to keep up with a pail-dumping baby (or dog) or whether or not there's a cockroach in a visitor's cup of tea.

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Yeah, I'm curious too. I mean, if you have a search warrant, then you can't be turned away. But otherwise, does he just assume all is well or does he go get a warrant or does he glance inside before being turned away, think, this house clearly isn't swimming in poop like that anonymous complaint, and let it go?

 

Dh says "It's always a judgement call. But I'm thinking about what is the original complaint that was made, that's what I'm going on. Is it something that means there is an immediate danger and if it is, and I can't prove that the child is safe, then I have to get a warrant to check it out. Like did your neighbor call and say he witnessed something or whatever that makes a reasonable person think the child may be in immediate danger. If I don't get to see your child then, yeah I'll get a warrant. I have to."

 

"Otherwise, I can call or write a letter and set up a dialogue or a meeting with the parents later. If something happens at the door that makes me wonder if there is an immediate danger, that is a real grey area sometimes. You don't want to be the person who let a child get injured or killed, you don't want to know that you were there right before it happened and you didn't do anything. Usually it doesn't matter what we see unless it means an immediate danger to the child."

 

"But most calls we get are not about anything that is immediate danger material. Most of the time we can wait. I don't care if you want to clean your house first or whatever. If you usually have fifty dead cats or something lying around you probably aren't going to fool anyone anyway, sooner or later we are going to have to talk about your house. If you aren't that bad, that fifty-dead-cats kind of bad, then it doesn't matter."

Edited by Rainefox
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Nobody's perfect, but I think it's pretty reasonable to expect a mom to keep up with a pail-dumping baby (or dog) or whether or not there's a cockroach in a visitor's cup of tea.

 

I mostly agree. I think if CPS came into a reasonably clean home and then, *wham* there was a cockroach in a tea cup, the case worker might realize it was a freak thing. If the house is reasonably clean and CPS shows up as Junior is running through the house with a diaper from the pail, an explanation of his new obsession and an invitation for the worker to come back at another time would be understandable.

 

On the flip side, I have had some moments where if a case worker with an axe to grind had shown up they could have easily interpreted the chaos of a single day as a bigger problem.

 

I stand by what I said earlier, if I felt I was dealing with a reasonable person, I would let them in. If their reaction to my request to call and verify who they are and to my request to know what the visit is about were not well received I would assume I was not dealing with a reasonable person and act accordingly.

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Okay, sorry, this is why threads like this freak me out. Are you saying that a family that gets a cockroach infestation is unfit to parent their children? Or that a mom that's distracted enough not to notice the cockroach when she's serving tea in a very stressful situation is not fit to parent her children? I mean, yes, that's really, really gross, but is it "unfit to parent" gross?

 

How about a family whose cat or dog has accidents throughout the house that mom doesn't find immediately? How about a family where the toddler or the dog unloads the diaper pail several times a day, and the mom can't keep up with it?

 

It's easy to condemn when that's not the thing you deal with in your household. This kind of thing just makes me wonder what it is in my home that would be over the line in someone else's judgment. And it makes me give a lot less weight to all that advice not to worry about keeping a spotless house while my kids are young and I'm pregnant....

 

ETA: The first list like this that was given, about cat feces ground into the carpet throughout the house, no unspoiled food in the fridge and none in the pantry, etc... that all seemed objectively over any reasonable line. So I do think there can be cause for CPS involvement in "messy house" situations... but IMO the standard ought to be really, really extreme.... they are getting a single snapshot of your home, after all.

 

Rivka's point was about parents who would argue that those circumstances are normal. Yes, a parent might get overwhelmed in the run of a day and have those things happen on occasion but would a decent parent argue that any of that is normal? Just average, to-be-expected stuff?

 

A decent parent would likely clean up, call exterminators, rehome the animals. The parent would recognize that those things aren't normal and work to eliminate them.No one is saying those things can't happen to good parents, just that good parents don't attempt to pretend there's nothing wrong with any of those things.

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Okay, sorry, this is why threads like this freak me out. Are you saying that a family that gets a cockroach infestation is unfit to parent their children? Or that a mom that's distracted enough not to notice the cockroach when she's serving tea in a very stressful situation is not fit to parent her children? I mean, yes, that's really, really gross, but is it "unfit to parent" gross?

 

How about a family whose cat or dog has accidents throughout the house that mom doesn't find immediately? How about a family where the toddler or the dog unloads the diaper pail several times a day, and the mom can't keep up with it?

 

It's easy to condemn when that's not the thing you deal with in your household. This kind of thing just makes me wonder what it is in my home that would be over the line in someone else's judgment. And it makes me give a lot less weight to all that advice not to worry about keeping a spotless house while my kids are young and I'm pregnant....

 

ETA: The first list like this that was given, about cat feces ground into the carpet throughout the house, no unspoiled food in the fridge and none in the pantry, etc... that all seemed objectively over any reasonable line. So I do think there can be cause for CPS involvement in "messy house" situations... but IMO the standard ought to be really, really extreme.... they are getting a single snapshot of your home, after all.

 

It makes me worry about keeping the house spotless too. My house is not filthy. But there have been diapers on a changing mat on the floor. Not huge stinking mounds of diapers in every room of the house, but more than one diaper outside of its intended receptacle. Sometimes things get kicked out of the litterbox. Not animal feces covering every surface in the house, but a couple stray turds in a room my children never go in, that are cleaned up when I happen to see them.

 

These aren't things I strive for, and my house is generally clean. We live here though, and sometimes things don't get cleaned up this very second.

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I had them come out once, unannounced, because of an anonymous call. Someone driving by saw my then 11 yo cutting the grass with a push mower, and my 8yo with a wheel barrow and thought it was unacceptable, apparently. The worker didn't ask to come in, but questioned me briefly on the porch and set up a home inspection. During the inspection, she did ask to speak to the kids privately, but we said no so she asked what she needed to ask right there. She decided the call was unfounded and we never heard from them again.

 

 

My question would be, what were they TOLD? Did the person say "Hey I saw this 11 year old mowing and an 8 year old pushing a wheelbarrow." and CPS came running? Or even "Hey I saw two elementary school kids..." why would CPS investigate that? Surely having your children do chores/chores in the yard isn't illegal anywhere? So, to me, that says either the caller lied (said it was much smaller kids or they were doing something totally different) OR CPS decided they can investigate any little thing and decide case by case what will fly. I'm going off what a CPS worker told me, that they can decide a call is not a danger and not investigate it. She said they don't investigate every little call in. Some helicopter parent may think having the kids wash the car is abuse, that doesn't mean CPS investigates. My question to CPS would be what was called in. As in "You see my two kids, ages 11 and 8. They were doing light yard work. What's the issue?" I don't see why that would even merit questioning the kids.

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I worked for Dept of Social Services and based on what I know of the general training of CPS workers, I would NEVER consent to allowing them in my home without a search warrant and I would have legal representation ASAP. I've seen too much to have any confidence in that agency. JMHO based on my own observations from working with the agency.

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Rivka's point was about parents who would argue that those circumstances are normal. Yes, a parent might get overwhelmed in the run of a day and have those things happen on occasion but would a decent parent argue that any of that is normal? Just average, to-be-expected stuff?

 

A decent parent would likely clean up, call exterminators, rehome the animals. The parent would recognize that those things aren't normal and work to eliminate them.No one is saying those things can't happen to good parents, just that good parents don't attempt to pretend there's nothing wrong with any of those things.

 

I guess I do find myself thinking that those are normal enough to not have your children taken away for, depending of course on the severity of the issue. I'm on the fence about the cockroach. I've seen a fully grown cockroach, thankfully not in my house, and it would barely fit into one of my teacups.

 

But yeah, I don't think "just" dirty diapers, or "just" an animal accident is something children should be removed from a home for. Again, that's assuming that it isn't impossible to find a clean path to walk through, as in one of the previous posts.

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And it makes me give a lot less weight to all that advice not to worry about keeping a spotless house while my kids are young and I'm pregnant....

 

I wish I could explain some of this. I'm gonna try. Three scenarios:

 

So there is accidentally a roach in the tea. The house looks decent otherwise. There are no other concerns. THis is not a problem. Add spanking your kid, a nasty bruise on your child's forehead, and one pile of dog poop. Still, very little of an issue likely, if one at all. I can guarantee you that in the one county I know well, NOTHING at all would happen with this situation. It could be three times that bad and you likely wouldn't even get family based services (possibly even if you asked).

 

Let me TRY to paint a picture for when they are finally going to take them (well, maybe....). The table, high chair, coffee table and counters were COVERED completely with old food, trash, papers, etc. There was a wood burning stove that the man rigged up (CPS did tell him what he needed to do to fix that at an earlier visit and he did so). The floor in front of this stove (the only source of heat in the home) is COVERED in ashes (stove and cigarettes), trash, feces. Remember, this is the same floor the family slept on the night before. The blanket around one child is caked with feces. The children are severely underweight and ill but wearing only dirty sweatshirts and diapers. Dirty means having worn them several days, caked with food, urine soaked. Littlest was taken AMA from hospital the night before and not taken to another doctor or hospital. He is lethargic, severely dehydrated, in need of medical attention his parents are refusing. There is no electricity or water. The man did finally get the door on the bathroom after the last CPS visit and being asked to. There hadn't even been a blanket up prior. The children have scars and open sores on their heads from lice. Severe injuries to one child is being blamed on the 24 pound sibling. Tools, cigarettes, lighters are everywhere. The children discuss beatings with the belt. Two have severe rash on their bums. There is water standing in the sink. It is brown with a stench and even a roach won't go into it. Rats and mice are evident. It looks as if there are approximately 200 beer bottles/can. THere is evidence of an egg breaking down the front of the fridge. It was left to dry on the floor. The woman's arm is in a sling because of the abuse from the man. The couple, 3 weeks ago, bought a car with their income tax money. The family gets WIC and foodstamps yet has little edible food in the house. The oldest two children have missed six weeks out of the last 5months of school. Teachers report the children are often unbathed, in dirty clothing, and smell. They have six cavities each. BTW, the kids have been home from foster care 5 months and this is the 4th referral to CPS since they've been home.

 

BTW, another family I knew had kinship care of a child (as well as 3 other children in the home). There were two sets of adults and grandma. The house smelled worse than anything I can even come close to describing. There was food and dishes around the house. There were piles of clean and dirty clothes (they were kinda obviously separated). The yard had a bit of trash and old broken this and that. The animals obviously were neglected but loved. The roaches thought they were pets. They were EVERYWHERE. You couldn't step without stepping on one and it is likely one will get on you from the couch or ceiling. The kids were constantly sick. I was so worried for all of their health. CPS finally went out. They told the family what level of cleanliness was needed and the family did it (it was still awful, imo). CPS helped them out with getting Terminex out there and when I went next, the roaches were mostly gone. After 3 months of monitoring (never again looking as good as it did after the first couple weeks), CPS drops out of the picture again.

 

Does that help at all? Seriously, it has to be worse than what you're thinking is bad.

Edited by 2J5M9K
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I guess I do find myself thinking that those are normal enough to not have your children taken away for, depending of course on the severity of the issue. I'm on the fence about the cockroach. I've seen a fully grown cockroach, thankfully not in my house, and it would barely fit into one of my teacups.

 

But yeah, I don't think "just" dirty diapers, or "just" an animal accident is something children should be removed from a home for. Again, that's assuming that it isn't impossible to find a clean path to walk through, as in one of the previous posts.

 

This isn't about what single factors always constitute "enough to have your children taken away for." We could debate that for hours without coming to consensus. What about a single episode of a parent losing their temper and spanking hard enough to leave bruises, in an otherwise loving and wholesome family? What about just one lapse in judgment, leaving kids alone at night and then something bad happens to them? What about...?

 

This is about what factors justify additional scrutiny of a family, not about making a checklist where one side is "okay" and the other side is "jackbooted thugs swoop down and immediately take your kids."

My point was not that a single episode of an incontinent housepet ought to condemn you as a parent forever. My point was that there are in fact people who will say that CPS persecuted them over an ordinary messy house, and then you find out that "ordinary messy" to them doesn't mean piles of clutter on the surfaces and last night's dinner dishes in the sink - it means feces lying around where the kids are playing, or a vermin infestation so severe and persistent that the family barely notices them anymore.

 

But, you know, frankly? If it makes me a hardcore, judgmental, family-destroying fascist to say that it is unhealthy and unacceptable for toddlers to be crawling around in piles of sh*t, then I am willing to accept that label.

 

I don't even know what to say to people who can read the scenarios I described and start wailing about how my post makes them feel like they have to keep their house spotless every minute because of CPS. It makes me tired to hear people arguing positions that essentially amount to society having to allow children to be left in squalor, basic needs neglected, or abused, "because if I squint cross-eyed at that situation for long enough and follow the slippery slope far enough along, I can arrive at a scenario which bears the ghost of a resemblance to one I might be in someday."

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Someone was telling me that an acquaintance was investigated by cps, and the case was closed as unfounded. However, the person said that even so, you're "on record" at cps for 10years (or something like that).

 

Is that true?

 

Yup and every time they get a call in they look it up and use it against you even if it was unfounded in the first place.

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This isn't about what single factors always constitute "enough to have your children taken away for." We could debate that for hours without coming to consensus. What about a single episode of a parent losing their temper and spanking hard enough to leave bruises, in an otherwise loving and wholesome family? What about just one lapse in judgment, leaving kids alone at night and then something bad happens to them? What about...?

 

This is about what factors justify additional scrutiny of a family, not about making a checklist where one side is "okay" and the other side is "jackbooted thugs swoop down and immediately take your kids."

My point was not that a single episode of an incontinent housepet ought to condemn you as a parent forever. My point was that there are in fact people who will say that CPS persecuted them over an ordinary messy house, and then you find out that "ordinary messy" to them doesn't mean piles of clutter on the surfaces and last night's dinner dishes in the sink - it means feces lying around where the kids are playing, or a vermin infestation so severe and persistent that the family barely notices them anymore.

 

But, you know, frankly? If it makes me a hardcore, judgmental, family-destroying fascist to say that it is unhealthy and unacceptable for toddlers to be crawling around in piles of sh*t, then I am willing to accept that label.

 

I don't even know what to say to people who can read the scenarios I described and start wailing about how my post makes them feel like they have to keep their house spotless every minute because of CPS. It makes me tired to hear people arguing positions that essentially amount to society having to allow children to be left in squalor, basic needs neglected, or abused, "because if I squint cross-eyed at that situation for long enough and follow the slippery slope far enough along, I can arrive at a scenario which bears the ghost of a resemblance to one I might be in someday."

 

:iagree: Nothing but the truth, sista!

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My house is clean, but we live in it. ;)

 

My dh has had soldiers who had their kids taken away due to the state of the homes. In *every* case the house was completely disgusting, unhealthy and dangerous for a child to live in. In every case at least one person threw up when trying to enter the house. In at least half of the cases there were drugs that the kids could access. Nobody is going to have their kids taken away because your laundry isn't done.

 

Also, the word "judgment" only has one e in it. I am just sayin'.

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Also, the word "judgment" only has one e in it. I am just sayin'.

 

Thank you. Here's the HORRIBLE thing about that. Not feces on the floor horrible, but still... Chrome's dictionary, which autochecks words (and just told me that autochecks is not a proper word by underlining it in red) thinks that both "judgement" and "judgment" are correct. :willy_nilly:

 

ETA: Oh, well, I just looked it up. Apparently that is the correct British spelling. Huh. Like colour or theatre. Except Chrome does underline those for me.:glare:

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and you know you haven't done anything wrong, what should you do? My dh and I were discussing this, and to be honest I have no idea what the "right" answer is. The podcast he was listening to said to never, ever let them in, and immediately call your attorney. Of course, this organization offers a legal service that you can sign up for in advance, so if you have the foresight to plan ahead you can just give them a call. :rolleyes:

 

Just curious what the right answer is, or if there even is a right answer.

 

 

Do not invite them in. You can stand outside your door and talk to them. Treat them as you would any other unknown official, which should start by asking them to verify their identity and state their official purpose.

 

Depending on what they have to say to you, you may want to contact your lawyer. There is no need, however, to join a "legal service" that, if we're talking about the same "service," doesn't actually obligate them to give you any service whatsoever.

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About using "unfounded" against you. This really works both ways. Yes, it could be "maybe there is really a concern here since we have 8 referrals; let's make sure we get to the bottom of this this time." It could also be, "there are 8 referrals with no evidence of anything so likely today's referral is nothing also."

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My question would be, what were they TOLD? Did the person say "Hey I saw this 11 year old mowing and an 8 year old pushing a wheelbarrow." and CPS came running? Or even "Hey I saw two elementary school kids..." why would CPS investigate that? Surely having your children do chores/chores in the yard isn't illegal anywhere? So, to me, that says either the caller lied (said it was much smaller kids or they were doing something totally different) OR CPS decided they can investigate any little thing and decide case by case what will fly. I'm going off what a CPS worker told me, that they can decide a call is not a danger and not investigate it. She said they don't investigate every little call in. Some helicopter parent may think having the kids wash the car is abuse, that doesn't mean CPS investigates. My question to CPS would be what was called in. As in "You see my two kids, ages 11 and 8. They were doing light yard work. What's the issue?" I don't see why that would even merit questioning the kids.

 

They were told that they saw two young children with a lawn mower and a wheelbarrow, about 5 and 8 yo. My then 8 yo (who they mistook for 5) was small, but come on, he's pushing a wheelbarrow around the yard! When she arrived at my door and realized the call was exagerrated, she said she had to follow up with an interview because there was a call. She also said 11 was on the young side for mowing, and that I needed to be directly supervising. Which I agree with btw, I just wasn't out there the moment Nosy Noserson drove by.

Edited by jentancalann
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I also want to point out just because your case with CPS is closed, doesnt mean its off the record/books. They can and will use it against you IF you have another case of ANY kind with them. It COULD also be used in a divorce/separation issue IF your spouse knows the right avenues to take.

 

ETA:

Im not talking about this example:

in 2002 CPS has a case because your kids are dirty and you have no food.

in 2008 CPS has same complaint.

 

(i realize they are related and they CAN use those together).

Im saying this:

in 2002 CPS has a case because your fridge is empty

in 2008 cps has a case because you homeschool.

 

they can and will try to use both of those against you.

Edited by Jpoy85
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Just this past year I had a pediatrician (not ours but the one at the hospital after delivery) explain to me, not so nicely, that if I should choose (wrongly in her opinion) to not stay past 24 hours, and then not bring the baby back at 48 hours to get her bilirubin re-checked, that she would have CPS and the police visit me for the welfare of the baby... The 8lb, 38 week baby. :glare:

 

To this day, when I am well dressed, hair done, and not recovering from delivery, I want to go sit down, and have a calm rational discussion on why what she did was wrong.

 

Beyond that, she blamed me "most likely not making it back in to check the baby's billi levels" because I have so many children to care for at home.

 

Goodness, woman. Make it obvious you're biased because I have more children than she approves of... Sigh. If it wasn't so very serious, you'd want to make a crack about one of the childrens' nine fathers could bring them in. Or maybe my local drug dealer. Sigh. I was pretty irritated by that one.

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Just this past year I had a pediatrician (not ours but the one at the hospital after delivery) explain to me, not so nicely, that if I should choose (wrongly in her opinion) to not stay past 24 hours, and then not bring the baby back at 48 hours to get her bilirubin re-checked, that she would have CPS and the police visit me for the welfare of the baby... The 8lb, 38 week baby. :glare:

 

To this day, when I am well dressed, hair done, and not recovering from delivery, I want to go sit down, and have a calm rational discussion on why what she did was wrong.

 

Beyond that, she blamed me "most likely not making it back in to check the baby's billi levels" because I have so many children to care for at home.

 

Goodness, woman. Make it obvious you're biased because I have more children than she approves of... Sigh. If it wasn't so very serious, you'd want to make a crack about one of the childrens' nine fathers could bring them in. Or maybe my local drug dealer. Sigh. I was pretty irritated by that one.

 

I would of asked to see that law, lol. Then i would of called another Pediatrician. ;)

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Okay, sorry, this is why threads like this freak me out. Are you saying that a family that gets a cockroach infestation is unfit to parent their children? Or that a mom that's distracted enough not to notice the cockroach when she's serving tea in a very stressful situation is not fit to parent her children? I mean, yes, that's really, really gross, but is it "unfit to parent" gross?

 

How about a family whose cat or dog has accidents throughout the house that mom doesn't find immediately? How about a family where the toddler or the dog unloads the diaper pail several times a day, and the mom can't keep up with it?

 

It's easy to condemn when that's not the thing you deal with in your household. This kind of thing just makes me wonder what it is in my home that would be over the line in someone else's judgment. And it makes me give a lot less weight to all that advice not to worry about keeping a spotless house while my kids are young and I'm pregnant....

 

ETA: The first list like this that was given, about cat feces ground into the carpet throughout the house, no unspoiled food in the fridge and none in the pantry, etc... that all seemed objectively over any reasonable line. So I do think there can be cause for CPS involvement in "messy house" situations... but IMO the standard ought to be really, really extreme.... they are getting a single snapshot of your home, after all.

 

I'm trying to understand, really, but are we saying this happens more than on one freakishly bad day? Because, the constantly incontinent dog would find a new home if I couldn't keep my house safely clean and/or the diaper pail would go into a closet because I really could NOT deal with someone or something dragging baby poo across my carpet. I am not a neatfreak, but ew. And a baby should be crawling and picking up things off a floor like that? They put those things in their mouths.

 

I love my dog. I do. But if he made my home unsafe for human people - small children, he'd be gone. And, yeah, I think it's reasonable for CPS to expect no feces on the floor.

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I would of asked to see that law, lol. Then i would of called another Pediatrician. ;)

 

Kaiser Permanente - you get what you get and you don't throw a fit. I've loved their doctors - all except this one. :glare: It was a bad day and I jumped through ALL of her hoops including four visits for bili checks that weekend. No kidding. I was hornet mad, but what exactly are you going to do on the fourth of July weekend? No one to call, hands are tied, and I believe she knew it too. Frankly I think she was ticked I wanted to go home at less than 24 hours and I kept pushing it saying there was no medical reason for me to stay. I was willing to sign out AMA as my perinatologist had cleared me to go home. I think she simply did not like me questioning her authority. (Well, and/or I do look a little young to have nine children so I'm sure she had some pre-conceived ideas going on there.)

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Okay, sorry, this is why threads like this freak me out. Are you saying that a family that gets a cockroach infestation is unfit to parent their children? Or that a mom that's distracted enough not to notice the cockroach when she's serving tea in a very stressful situation is not fit to parent her children? I mean, yes, that's really, really gross, but is it "unfit to parent" gross?

 

How about a family whose cat or dog has accidents throughout the house that mom doesn't find immediately? How about a family where the toddler or the dog unloads the diaper pail several times a day, and the mom can't keep up with it?

 

It's easy to condemn when that's not the thing you deal with in your household. This kind of thing just makes me wonder what it is in my home that would be over the line in someone else's judgment. And it makes me give a lot less weight to all that advice not to worry about keeping a spotless house while my kids are young and I'm pregnant....

 

ETA: The first list like this that was given, about cat feces ground into the carpet throughout the house, no unspoiled food in the fridge and none in the pantry, etc... that all seemed objectively over any reasonable line. So I do think there can be cause for CPS involvement in "messy house" situations... but IMO the standard ought to be really, really extreme.... they are getting a single snapshot of your home, after all.

 

CPS is "trained" to know the things to look for, BUT it is as their hand to decide. The worker themselves cant decide to take a child, they are suppose to go to the judge and get an emergency order.

 

People have a general thought that CPS only takes kids with really unsafe conditions (roaches, no food in the fridge, etc).... but really your child can be taken for ANYTHING. There is neglect too. Its not a black and white thing. There really isnt a book that lists all the reasons under abuse and neglect and whats unsafe.

 

Also some times (if you get a GOOD worker) they will help you and work with you. They dont always look for unsafe things and take your kid right away. For example, if you dont have food and there are no diapers, they can and should help you get in touch with a place to get food and diapers. When its a good worker, they do give you a chance as long as there is no immediate danger.

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Chiming in again, before this thread becomes even more freaked out...

 

What's scary is the unpredictability and the helplessness. I get that. I've been there. When the crazy caseworker with the axe to grind sat in the hospital and threatened taking my DDs because younger DD had been in the hospital too many times, I cried like I have never cried. And I get the worry that they can use weird things against you. My DD8 (5 at the time) told them that one time I stopped at Chick-fil-a on the way to the ER. That became a major issue.* I get the scariness.

 

But that's about as likely as being struck by lightening. Seriously. It happens, but it's pretty much for sure not going to happen to you. Take precautions...don't let them in....surely don't let them talk to your child without someone there but try not to get too worried.

 

Almost always it really has to be horrible. Like other descriptions about complete filth. And we could talk about the flip side too...times when CPS doesn't do anything and a child gets hurt or dies. I used to be a chaplain at a children's hospital and in one year I saw fourteen separate children who died of abuse when CPS was already involved. I saw many more hurt and scared kids with broken bones, lacerations, and fear filled eyes who I knew were just going right back into it. They have a job to do. I'm going to make sure they don't infringe upon my rights ever again but I am going to realize that they have a huge amount of pressure on them. Each individual is different - some are power hungry jerks, but most are there because they care about children.

 

That was ramble-y. All I am saying is if you are worried, try to put it in perspective and relax.

 

 

** So, yes, I did stop at Chick-fil-a on the way to the ER. I talked to my doc after hours and she wanted DD to get some blood work before the next day which meant another trip to the hospital. Knowing what ERs are like, I got my children food on the way there. It was not an emergency situation, just one that needed tending before morning. Crazy caseworker said that it was evidence that I knew DD was okay because I was making her sick. I never quite got the correlation but it was brought up in court all. three. times. to show why I shouldn't homeschool.

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About using "unfounded" against you. This really works both ways. Yes, it could be "maybe there is really a concern here since we have 8 referrals; let's make sure we get to the bottom of this this time." It could also be, "there are 8 referrals with no evidence of anything so likely today's referral is nothing also."

 

:iagree:

 

I was thinking that. Having that record could really help when you're dealing with complaints from a specific crackpot.

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I asked Hubby about this, because he is home alone with kiddo much more than I (during working hours). He said he'd tell them they needed to contact him in writing and wouldn't let them in. If they said they had a warrant, he'd ask to see it, and he'd call me. This makes sense for him. His hearing is not great, he's dyslexic, has no exposure to CPS, social workers, etc. He also knows he has a tendency to say the wrong things when upset.

 

I would be inclined to let the person in. I am familiar with CPS and social workers, I can read a legal document better than the average person, and I am good under fire. I have confidence in my ability to handle things. I also have a rather orderly house, a clean kid, a clean record, etc. I can't imagine anything even questionable, and I live in an area where homeschooling is embraced.

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This thread has been fascinating. I have no personal, IRL experience with CPS. I've never called CPS, and I've never been called on. I don't know anyone who has had a visit from CPS (I mean, no one I know well enough to know that about them.) I have read a number of threads on here where people have recommended calling CPS for a variety of reasons. And, apparently, several board members have been reported. Which makes me wonder how common CPS really is. Would anyone like to do a poll?

Edited by Meriwether
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This thread has been fascinating. I have no personal, IRL experience with CPS. I've never called CPS, and I've never been called on. I don't know anyone who has had a visit from CPS (I mean, no one I know well enough to know that about them.) I have read a number of threads on here where people have recommended calling CPS fir a variety of reasons. And, apparently, several board members have been reported. Which makes me wonder how common CPS really is. Would anyone like to do a poll?

 

My experience with CPS has been multi-faceted.

 

Growing up we had a foster family in our small church and they kept several long term placements, (with medical conditions they could not afford to treat if they adopted), as well as many short term placements. As I got older I saw how damaged some of these kids were, physically and emotionally. I watched one little girl bounce between her bio-family and the foster family 4x before she died in the bio-family's care. CPS in our area is always concerned with keeping the family intact.

 

I have contacted CPS trying to figure out if someone working with my non-verbal child had an open case in thier system. (I was it happy to discover that a particular organization was allowing someone under investigation for child endangerment to work with non-verbal children. :glare:)

 

I have had a wackadoodle threaten to call them on me.

 

I have never had them show up, but the wackadoodle threat made me seriously consider how I would handle it if they did.

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CPS is "trained" to know the things to look for, BUT it is as their hand to decide. The worker themselves cant decide to take a child, they are suppose to go to the judge and get an emergency order.

 

People have a general thought that CPS only takes kids with really unsafe conditions (roaches, no food in the fridge, etc).... but really your child can be taken for ANYTHING. There is neglect too. Its not a black and white thing. There really isnt a book that lists all the reasons under abuse and neglect and whats unsafe.

 

Also some times (if you get a GOOD worker) they will help you and work with you. They dont always look for unsafe things and take your kid right away. For example, if you dont have food and there are no diapers, they can and should help you get in touch with a place to get food and diapers. When its a good worker, they do give you a chance as long as there is no immediate danger.

No food in the fridge keeps getting mentioned. Today it is the one that bugs me. I have a large chest freezer 3/4 full of food. My food cupboard (such as it is) is full of food. My fridge on the other hand is not full of fresh food. It is 4 days before payday and the only thing in the fridge is left overs, milk and eggs. If I were to clean out the leftovers the fridge would be empty except for 2 dozen eggs and a gallon of milk. And condiments in the door. :glare:

 

Of course to look at us, one would know none of us are starving. :D

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I look at this from another angle - as one who has called CPS many times.

 

I used to be a PS teacher in a low income area. I saw many kids that were neglected, abused, druggie parents, etc. Never once did CPS take children away. I often wondered what the point of calling CPS was for!

 

So no, I'm not worried about CPS coming to my door. Though, for the record, I would not let them in or even open my door to them as I wouldn't for any other stranger.

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I have had CPS at my house three times in my life.

 

1st in 1994 ( he was 3 ) after I took my son to the doctor. He has a mark on his face that looked like knuckle marks. When CPS showed up they wanted to know what happened? They also had a report that I locked my son in his room.

 

2001: I calmly explained that I didn't know how it happened, then we started looking around his room. I pulled out his toddler bed and between it and the wall fell a little Mickey Mouse figure fell to the floor. The feet lined up perfectly with the marks. Then I went to the living room and told her to watch. I asked my son if he was ready to go to the park, then turned my back and continued to talk to the CPS worker. My son quickly got bored, went to get a chair and undid all three locks on the door and went out to the front porch. After I brought him back in, I explained to her that I do lock him in, with a small hook at the top of the door that he can not get to. CASE CLOSED LOL.

 

1998: The second time I left my 13 dd, 12 ds, and 10 ds, while I made an emergency trip to Alaska from Montana. When I came back CPS was there to meet me. They said that I left the children unattended. I explained that Montana law allowed a child of 13 to watch siblings, but that I did not leave them unattended. I had 2 neighbors who were SAHM's that were available at all times for the children. In fact they had spent every night with one of them. CASE CLOSED

 

I have also had CPS at my door once, because of neighbors who accused my husband at the time of molesting their daughter. It was proven when the DNA came back that it was the child's own father. I had watched the child a couple of times, and my husband was not even in the state when I did. CASE CLOSED

 

I will let CPS in, I have nothing to hide. My home is lived in and not perfect, but my children are fed, housed, and loved. I have kept a portfolio of school work for many years, oddly schooling has never been a reason for CPS at my door. LOL

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