S/O about Mayim Bialik; Not 'forcing manners' on children?

[*********]

After reading the other thread about Mayim, I googled her. I discovered that she's a TodayMoms blogger (as in, of the Today Show). I read her blog entry, and have a question about the paragraph about gentle discipline:

 

"We practice gentle discipline. That means we don’t hit our children or punish them. We have a lot of boundaries and expectations of our children, and we are by no means permissive parents. We do not use timeouts, we do not bargain (“If you clean your room, I’ll give you a cookieâ€) and we do not force manners on our children (“Say thank you!†and “Say please!†have never escaped my lips). Our children are not perfect, nor are they robots. They are both even-tempered children by nature, but they have plenty of opportunity to “act out†and “flip out†and “make mama wonder why she ever thought she was qualified to be a parent.†We have had great success with gentle discipline and our children are, by all accounts, full of empathy, aware of boundaries, and pleasant to take to public places."

 

I've never heard of the bolded part before. Can someone explain the reasoning behind it to me? I had no idea that not teaching manners was associated with gentle discipline. I don't agree with it, but I'm intrigued as to the reasoning behind it. I'm not looking to debate it necessarily, just looking to understand it, seeing as I've never even heard this idea before.

[~Amanda~]

I think I read that it has something to do with them REALLY feeling thanks, instead of a "robot automatic response" "thank you"

[~Amanda~]

so, she doesn't force them to say it until they understand it and want to say it on their own, and they will learn to say it on their own by what their parents mimick

[stripe]

I think the ideal is to inculcate politeness in your family through modeling, i.e. you say, "Thank you!" so your kids learn that way, rather than instructing them to do so.

 

I had no idea Mayim Bialik was back on the scene! What fun.

[Kathryn]

From what I've read, it's part and parcel of the "attachment parenting" philosophy, but one which many who casually call themselves AP don't ascribe to. I've heard that Dr. Sears also did this.

[Mrs Mungo]

There is a certain contingent in the AP crowd that believe in never forcing your will upon a child. I'm not saying that she fully subscribes to the beliefs of TCS, just that is the crowd that is usually pressing such issues. There were actually quite a few arguments about it on the old board. In my experience this is not a widely held belief among AP parents.

[Guest submarines]

I've never heard of the bolded part before. Can someone explain the reasoning behind it to me? I had no idea that not teaching manners was associated with gentle discipline. I don't agree with it, but I'm intrigued as to the reasoning behind it. I'm not looking to debate it necessarily, just looking to understand it, seeing as I've never even heard this idea before.

 

She didn't say she wasn't teaching manners. She said she didn't force her children into the "Say Thank You" situations.

 

Teaching and learning happen in diferent ways, and many are more effective than direct instruction.

[AvasMom]

There is a certain contingent in the AP crowd that believe in never forcing your will upon a child. I'm not saying that she fully subscribes to the beliefs of TCS, just that is the crowd that is usually pressing such issues. There were actually quite a few arguments about it on the old board. In my experience this is not a widely held belief among AP parents.

 

No, it isn't held by most AP parents. I have been around children being raised with TCS. My experiences with them have not been pleasant. :glare::001_huh:

[*********]

There is a certain contingent in the AP crowd that believe in never forcing your will upon a child. I'm not saying that she fully subscribes to the beliefs of TCS, just that is the crowd that is usually pressing such issues. There were actually quite a few arguments about it on the old board. In my experience this is not a widely held belief among AP parents.

 

WOW. That site sure is interesting and informative, thank you Mrs. Mungo.

[Impish]

Granted, I'm not an AP, so I honestly don't understand how it would work.

 

I mean, I start teaching my kids to say please and thank you from the time they're starting to talk...I never even thought about it, it's just what I did...hand them a sippy cup..."Please..." prompt..."Thank you" prompt...

[*********]

She didn't say she wasn't teaching manners. She said she didn't force her children into the "Say Thank You" situations.

 

Teaching and learning happen in diferent ways, and many are more effective than direct instruction.

 

You are correct. Please excuse my poor wording. It certainly did expose my feelings on the suject, I suppose. :D

[2_girls_mommy]

I have to admit to reminding my kids many times. I personally don't see it as forcing my will on them. But I am not against that always either :)

 

BUT I know one family that forces it so much, like 40 bazillion times an hour that it drives me batty. The poor child doesn't have time to think of manners on her own, because they tell her what to say/do constantly. So I would much rather go the other way (modeling, never reminding) instead of turning into that.

 

OT> I am not kidding. I saw this family make the child apologize to the wall after a tantrum of kicking the wall. And it was not meant as a funny. Ridiculous.

[NotAVampireLvr]

I think like all parenting philosophies, there are different levels. I would assume that most people on this board are not unschoolers, but they do subscribe to some of the philosophies. Same with AP... parenting techniques don't have to be all or nothing. You use what works for your family. I know in our home our parenting and homeschooling styles range from very traditional to very non-traditional. We pick what works and stick with it. We also cater it to each child.

[In the Rain]

I don't remember having to force my kids to say please or thank you, although it was certainly encouraged. I think of the word "force" as implying there is a battle of wills. If one of my toddlers screamed for something, I probably told her she needed to ask nicely. Asking nicely wouldn't necessarily require the use of "please".

 

I don't force my kids to say "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you". That has caused some awkward moments in dealing with other parents and children. :001_huh: I do make sure they try to help the injured or offended child. Those examples seem more like imposing your will on a child, and forcing them to express an emotion they don't feel. I think of "please" and "thank you" as pleasantries.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Julianna

[jillian]

If dd asks for something like more drink/food we just wait until she says please on her own. We also expect thank you but rarely remind her anymore. She's 4.

[mommymilkies]

There is a certain contingent in the AP crowd that believe in never forcing your will upon a child. I'm not saying that she fully subscribes to the beliefs of TCS, just that is the crowd that is usually pressing such issues. There were actually quite a few arguments about it on the old board. In my experience this is not a widely held belief among AP parents.

 

:iagree: I personally have only met one family who did not encourage their children to say please or thank you. I don't punish my kids not for saying it, but I do prompt "That was very nice. What should we say?", things like that. I consider myself AP, but I also know it's not a you-know-what contest.

[Ellie]

Yeah, I've heard/seen that kind of stuff before. She didn't come up with anything new.

 

Children do not come out of the womb knowing how to behave in a socially acceptable way. They must be instructed, preferably by parents who love them and who gently correct as well as consistently instruct, and who also model the behaviors they want their dc to have (although modeling isn't enough; there must also be instruction, and sometimes, correction).

 

Note to self: stay away from Mayim's dc. :blink:

[swellmomma]

Granted, I'm not an AP, so I honestly don't understand how it would work.

 

I mean, I start teaching my kids to say please and thank you from the time they're starting to talk...I never even thought about it, it's just what I did...hand them a sippy cup..."Please..." prompt..."Thank you" prompt...

 

 

:iagree:I am mostly AP (as in I do not subsribe to many of it's notions but to just as many I do). I know 1 family IRL that does not believe in teaching manners. It is part of the whole package that is her parenting style. The mom (a single parent) is AP and a radical unschooler. SHe is the type that believes she should never ever tell her children to do anything so they do what they want when they want. Manners and everything is is treated the same way, apparently when the child is interested they will use them. Right now her oldest is 13 and while a decent enough kid has zero manners. She models it, but because it is not expected or required they kid do not use them. And I am not talking about just please and thank you, but excuse me/pardon me(not just for gas but when walking in front of someone and something they were seeing/doing- so at the library someone standing looking at the books, we cut past them to the next shelf we always say excuse me to them etc), table manners, holding doors for people, not interrupting etc. My kids are not perfect or robotic though I "force my will" on them for manners (as well as other things) but at least they get complimented regularily for their manners and I am told are welcome to come back to most places due to those manners. As a teen now that boy from the family I know is not being done a service. We have had a meal with them and never will again. Lip smacking, slurping, reaching across others, no please, no thank you, no excuse me while reaching close to someone else, constant interrupting, talking with mouth full etc. THis was not just the 1 boy but all 4 kids though the mom ate appropriately the whole time and modelled the correct behaviour.

 

Now I am not riding my kids constantly, or having them apologize to walls, but I will not give them something without a please or thank you, I will remind them every.single. time. to quietly say excuse me if they pass gas. I will not so quietly remind them to hold a door, or give up their seat for someone older, or chew with their mouths closed. Honestly some days I wonder if teaching manners is the only thing I am doing right.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

How many (and how old) are her children? What she said sounds like me when my first (twins) were born. I was totally into attachment parenting and "gentle discipline." Well, after 2 years, I couldn't take them out in public, they were so horrible!

 

Put it this way, it was boot camp for a good year! My boys had to learn that the world did not revolve around them.

 

They are now 18 and wonderful young men. (I shudder just thinking about that time they were out of control at 2 years old.)

[Mrs Mungo]

Note to self: stay away from Mayim's dc. :blink:

 

I may not subscribe to her philosophy, but I don't know her or how it works for her family in practice. Assuming her kids are horrible is just as bad as people who assume homeschooled kids are unsocialized.

[BigMamaBird]

I think the ideal is to inculcate politeness in your family through modeling, i.e. you say, "Thank you!" so your kids learn that way, rather than instructing them to do so.

 

I had no idea Mayim Bialik was back on the scene! What fun.

 

She's in "The Big Bang Theroy" which is one of our favorites. She plays a super genius and is quite funny. This is one of the best scenes from the whole show and it's all because of her acting.

 

 

 

As to the parenting. I've read some of her blog posts and she sounds like someone who would instinctively model good manners all the time. My hang up with the whole "don't force manners" are those folks who have no inherent manners of their own and only succeed in raising a pack of wolves.

[Impish]

My hang up with the whole "don't force manners" are those folks who have no inherent manners of their own and only succeed in raising a pack of wolves.

Hey now, don't insult wolves! The pack disciplines!

[NicAnn]

Well, I'm an AP parent and have been a AP leader for about 5 years ow, so maybe I can offer an opinion. Hope I can come through online.

 

AP incorporates a variety of styles, and most parents I've encountered DO "force" manners on the kids. (I don't think force is the word that should be used though.) We however, don't. It sounds bad, but in practice it really works for us. We also don't force apologizes.

 

For us, it starts with a lot of modeling in the beginning. Even when Dd was a newborn, we would pretend to talk to her with lots of please and thank yous. "Oh, you like this shirt? Thank you so much", etc. Now she mostly says it all the time. But for certain things, I preempt it. I tell her, "If you are going to get a balloon at the store today, please ask the man politely for one".

 

I don't like to point it out in front of people, because really if it's not sincere then what does it matter. I also think that a lot of times the kids are excited or scared or whatever, and they won't even remember in the moment that this is a time for politeness.

[justamouse]

I've said before on the board that I live two houses down from a lobbyist. He has two boys. These boys are The Most Polite Children I have EVER had the pleasure of knowing. "Hello, I'm so pleased to meet you." "Thank you Mrs. P for letting us come play, we've enjoyed our visit."

 

I mean, take your breath away polite. Their parents have never taught them (yes, I've asked) they modeled their values, All The Time (you bet a lobbyist has to be polite and know his etiquette).

[RainbowSprinkles]

I think the ideal is to inculcate politeness in your family through modeling, i.e. you say, "Thank you!" so your kids learn that way, rather than instructing them to do so.

 

:iagree:Yes, you teach them by showing them. If one doesn't use "thank you" and "please" very often, then one shouldn't expect or "force" one's dc to say these things either.

 

Manners are best taught by modeling the behavior, IMO.

[NotAVampireLvr]

I may not subscribe to her philosophy, but I don't know her or how it works for her family in practice. Assuming her kids are horrible is just as bad as people who assume homeschooled kids are unsocialized.

 

 

:iagree:

[Carrie12345]

I may not subscribe to her philosophy, but I don't know her or how it works for her family in practice. Assuming her kids are horrible is just as bad as people who assume homeschooled kids are unsocialized.

 

:iagree:

Just because she hasn't TOLD them to say certain things doesn't mean they don't. I sure as heck never told MY kids to yell at lousy drivers, but they picked that up just fine! :tongue_smilie:

[Mrs Mungo]

:iagree:

Just because she hasn't TOLD them to say certain things doesn't mean they don't. I sure as heck never told MY kids to yell at lousy drivers, but they picked that up just fine! :tongue_smilie:

 

:smilielol5:I'll have to join that club.

[LibraryLover]

Yes. Yes.

Well, I'm an AP parent and have been a AP leader for about 5 years ow, so maybe I can offer an opinion. Hope I can come through online.

 

AP incorporates a variety of styles, and most parents I've encountered DO "force" manners on the kids. (I don't think force is the word that should be used though.) We however, don't. It sounds bad, but in practice it really works for us. We also don't force apologizes.

 

For us, it starts with a lot of modeling in the beginning. Even when Dd was a newborn, we would pretend to talk to her with lots of please and thank yous. "Oh, you like this shirt? Thank you so much", etc. Now she mostly says it all the time. But for certain things, I preempt it. I tell her, "If you are going to get a balloon at the store today, please ask the man politely for one".

 

I don't like to point it out in front of people, because really if it's not sincere then what does it matter. I also think that a lot of times the kids are excited or scared or whatever, and they won't even remember in the moment that this is a time for politeness.

[LisaKinVA]

She's in "The Big Bang Theroy" which is one of our favorites. She plays a super genius and is quite funny. This is one of the best scenes from the whole show and it's all because of her acting.

 

 

 

As to the parenting. I've read some of her blog posts and she sounds like someone who would instinctively model good manners all the time. My hang up with the whole "don't force manners" are those folks who have no inherent manners of their own and only succeed in raising a pack of wolves.

 

This is one of my favorite scenes, too! Doesn't MB say that she has pretty even-tempered, easy-going kids? Kids who are eager to please are a whole different ball of wax than say, a stubborn, no-way-but-my-way child...:tongue_smilie:

[dirty ethel rackham]

She's in "The Big Bang Theroy" which is one of our favorites. She plays a super genius and is quite funny. This is one of the best scenes from the whole show and it's all because of her acting.

 

 

 

 

 

:lol::lol::lol: Thanks so much for posting that link. That was hilarious! I hadn't seen that episode (we discovered this show in syndication a couple months ago and only watch it later at nightsince much of the content is inappropriate for my 11dd.)

[LisaKinVA]

Manners are best taught by modeling the behavior, IMO.

 

I can't possibly have the only children who are so completely oblivious to what is around them, that they don't even notice they are walking in front of someone to get to that oh-so-shiny-object?

 

I know they come by the "lost in their own head" quite naturally... heck, a person can be standing right in front of me AND talking to me, but if I'm engrossed in writing or reading or deep in thought, I not only will not hear them, I won't even see them. I can also carry on conversations in my sleep. :tongue_smilie:

[justamouse]

I can't possibly have the only children who are so completely oblivious to what is around them, that they don't even notice they are walking in front of someone to get to that oh-so-shiny-object?

 

I know they come by the "lost in their own head" quite naturally... heck, a person can be standing right in front of me AND talking to me, but if I'm engrossed in writing or reading or deep in thought, I not only will not hear them, I won't even see them. I can also carry on conversations in my sleep. :tongue_smilie:

 

It's like what Nicoleandco expressed. It's something that I've had to learn how to do, too. It's a different way of communicating.

[LibraryLover]

My experience is that the most polite people have polite children, and most of it is done through modeling. Oh, perhaps a reminder here and there, "When we get our free cheese samples at the cheese shop, don't forget to say 'thank you', or tell the person, "This is delicious!" Or,

"I know Auntie Sue is probably going to give you another crazy gift at Christmas, but her heart is in the right place, so do say, "Thank you for thinking of me." etc

 

I've found that children who are embarrassed in front of others by terse demands from their parents, are sometimes too humiliated to really know what it is to feel grateful. They just feel ashamed, which isn't going to get parents the desired results. Gentle parenting has never steered me wrong . I have very polite kids who can go anywhere, and I can feel pride.

 

They are older, and there were many imperfect interactions when they were tiny, but that is all part of experiencing, having patience, and modeling. I think it's not unlike expecting a child to be organized or thoughtful without ever having been taught, assisted kindly many times -so it sinks in and starts to make sense- or given the proper tools. Children need support and guidance, not punishment, ime. Telling a two year old to 'Pick up your toys or they will end up in the trash!" is not training, it's punishment, and that isn't teaching anything.

 

After two decades of parenting, I can confidently express my experience. Those children who were raised roughly are people I don''t usually want to be around. They tend to be looking to be sneaky, they tend to be self-absorbed. The gently parented children, in general, seem far more empathic, and far more 'successful'. They aren't looking to others for outside validation, and they aren't assuming bad things will happen at every turn, so they better get theirs now. Sure, the AP kids might not have been the ones sitting quielty on bankets at age two, but at age 23, they have far more self- control, seem more confident, *and* are polite, although not cloying.

 

I've said before on the board that I live two houses down from a lobbyist. He has two boys. These boys are The Most Polite Children I have EVER had the pleasure of knowing. "Hello, I'm so pleased to meet you." "Thank you Mrs. P for letting us come play, we've enjoyed our visit."

 

I mean, take your breath away polite. Their parents have never taught them (yes, I've asked) they modeled their values, All The Time (you bet a lobbyist has to be polite and know his etiquette).

Edited March 8, 2012 by LibraryLover

[Iucounu]

I'm all for modeling good manners, and think that the rationale of believing in what one says makes sense. On the other hand I believe there are some fairly radical folks out there, basing their philosophies on such stuff as "Raising Our Children, Raising Ourselves" by the discredited Naomi Aldort (i.e. the child is always right and if you impose any restrictions on their behavior you're doing it wrong :D ).

[LostSurprise]

Like unschooling, everyone has different ideas of what this means and what they're comfortable with.

 

Children are very different personalities. There are some children who would pick it up just by modeling. Perhaps she's blessed with very empathic children. There are also quite a few children who would not...they just would not get it. Direct instruction is necessary.

 

My oldest was one of those who did not learn by modeling. He has a strong personality and near complete trust in himself. Empathy was something he had to pick up a little at a time...for logical, not emotional reasons.

 

To me, manners show our respect of others. This is not just a skill helping us get along, but a worldview I want to teach my children. I don't consider this imposing my will upon my children, but gently teaching them a worldview that all others are important and worthy of thoughtfulness. Manners should not just be a wooden group of phrases, but a reminder that what we do affects people, and what they do affects us, and we need to be mindful of the people around us. They matter. They deserve our respect, and we deserve their respect.

 

Because this subject is so important, and because children rarely pick up on the deep reasoning behind the actions, I find manners need *more* explanation and discussion. Modeling alone does not teach a child why we use manners or the worldview of respect. Often a child needs a lot of explanations, verbal reinforcement, AND modeling to truly understand the issue.

 

I can't tell you the number of times I've made a connection with people because I chose to respect them with my words. Unfortunately, its not a world which chooses to respect others in this way...because people often don't *feel* like it. While I can understand that, I choose not to believe respect is something that should be turned on and off depending on my emotions. I will actively respect the people around me and teach my children to do likewise.

 

I'm sure Ms. Bialek sees this in a different way. We all have slightly different priorities and experiences. I hope her children will pick this up eventually, and enjoy a lively creativity because of her style. My kids will be the ones (I hope) that others will say are truly kind and thoughtful.

[NicAnn]

I can't possibly have the only children who are so completely oblivious to what is around them, that they don't even notice they are walking in front of someone to get to that oh-so-shiny-object?

 

I know they come by the "lost in their own head" quite naturally... heck, a person can be standing right in front of me AND talking to me, but if I'm engrossed in writing or reading or deep in thought, I not only will not hear them, I won't even see them. I can also carry on conversations in my sleep. :tongue_smilie:

 

In your case, just modeling might not work...though it still helps. There is nothing wrong with telling your kids to say please, just that, in general, it's more effective through modeling.

[NicAnn]

Because this subject is so important, and because children rarely pick up on the deep reasoning behind the actions, I find manners need *more* explanation and discussion. Modeling alone does not teach a child why we use manners or the worldview of respect. Often a child needs a lot of explanations, verbal reinforcement, AND modeling to truly understand the issue.

 

 

I totally agree with this. Although, I think kids need/deserve an explanation for most things. Like *why* do we say please and thank you, or say sorry to people. They need to understand empathy and politeness before it ca be used effectively.

 

Gosh, I like this discussion. Wish I didn't have to leave for the day!

[Pamela H in Texas]

You can teach manners without forcing them. At the same times, I don't think forcing it is horrible.

 

First, I think there is NOTHING better than modeling. I also think the constant nagging of children is counter-productive. My sister-in-law would, in a really ugly tone, say, "yes, what?" Blech!

 

For please and thank you, I may say it for the child if they don't. I don't regularly say, "say please." It's fairly rare, but I'd guess I've done it.

 

For apologies. I *do* force *something.* Children in our home have a choice. They can say, "I am sorry for XYZ" or they can say "I was wrong to XYZ." I don't want them to lie and say they are sorry when they are not. I can think of an argument against, "I was wrong," but in my home, if I deem it wrong and you knew (or now know) that, then you say it (or, if you've changed your mind and are now sorry, you can say that).

 

Now, I most certainly will remind them to chew appropriately (and a second offense in a meal receives an dismissal from the table) assuming it is possible for them to do it correctly (my littlest was stuffed up something awful for a few weeks and I didn't worry about that too much). It is rarely an issue and is always on purpose the few times it has been. I have no problem excusing them for being buggerschnotts).

 

Most things are just "this is what we do." No forcing necessary.

 

I believe in gentle, non-punitive discipline (though I've struggled a lot more with it since starting fostering!) and particularly believe in problem solving rather than dictating. My big kids didn't get punished even once per year. They aren't perfect by any stretch, but there was never a time people wouldn't have wanted to be around us. One kid was *really* easy. The other was *quite* challenging. We went this way because of the latter! It is *not* even close to how I was raised nor my nature; but I think it is BETTER. I did find some thought-provoking articles on the TCS website many years ago. I simply do believe there ARE rights and wrongs and I have a definite desire to lead my children a specific direction on certain topics. I do *fully* believe they should have a wider view though and that they will later develop their own beliefs, views, values, and make their own choices. So I guess I believe in balance.

 

Balance. Yep. Where exactly that balance is depends, of course; but it is my goal in parenting.

Edited March 8, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[Perry]

My experience is that the most polite people have polite children, and most of it is done through modeling.

Or maybe it's genetic... ;)

[LisaKinVA]

In your case, just modeling might not work...though it still helps. There is nothing wrong with telling your kids to say please, just that, in general, it's more effective through modeling.

 

We do much better if I remind about expectations/instructions before the situation arises. We're in the habit of going over proper behavior in the store before we go in. I have two children (darters), whose hand *must* be on the cart. When going down a crowded aisle... the older goes in front, and the younger comes by me... when to say "excuse me..." Modeling is crucial, too. If I don't model...they will wonder why they *need* to do something, too, making any other instruction less effective.

[Tap]

I think it can have a lot to do with the child's personality. Ds17 was always a gentle, kind soul. I can count on one hand, the number of times he got into any kind of trouble as a little kid, (okay, he did try to suffocate his baby sister, but they were playing a pretty serious game of peek-a-boo with a pillow! LOL) He learned social graces, with no problem and would shake people's hands when he was 4yo. I didn't really have to teach him, he just did it.

 

DD13 was a whirling, ball of energy. She didn't stand still long enough to use manners. She wasn't impolite, she would bounce up and down with joy, she just didn't stand still, so you would have never known if she said thank you or not. I had to rein her in a bit, and teach her to be polite enough to make sure the other person saw her happiness, not as unruly rowdiness, but as pure joy.

 

DD5 is so bashful, that she won't talk to strangers at all. If I forced her to say thank you to the bakery person for a cookie, she would hand the cookie back instead. At home, if I give her the smallest little thing, she gives huge hugs and kisses and is very, very appreciative. I say thank you for her to strangers.

 

Each of these children have been raised in the same home and with the same basic philosophy of parenting. We allow our children to be fairly self guided. Each child needed something different from us. One didn't need guidance about manners at all, one needed a lot of guidance, and one you couldn't force into it at all.

 

If I had two of the same children, I may think that my parenting style, was the way I got results. Due to having such varied children, I now see that successful parenting styles, has less to do with the parent and more to do with the child.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tap, tap, tap

[KrissiK]

I can't possibly have the only children who are so completely oblivious to what is around them, that they don't even notice they are walking in front of someone to get to that oh-so-shiny-object?

 

I know they come by the "lost in their own head" quite naturally... heck, a person can be standing right in front of me AND talking to me, but if I'm engrossed in writing or reading or deep in thought, I not only will not hear them, I won't even see them. I can also carry on conversations in my sleep. :tongue_smilie:

 

Oh mercy. You're talking about my kids. I don't force manners on my kids. As in, I don't stand there staring at them, until they say "Thank-you", but they are reminded and know they are expected to say it. So they do. You know, I really have a problem with people thinking that kids shouldn't say "thank you" unless they really are grateful. Manners are the grease that causes a society to function well and I don't think it's hypocritical at all to say "thank you" when I am not grateful, "I'm sorry" when I am not sorry or anything else that we should be saying in order to get along with people and to expect my children to do the same. I also have a huge problem with her claims about how they discipline their children. Are they (the children) perfect? Do they never disobey? She says they don't even use time-outs. Then what do they use? What do they do when their kid flat out says, "No, I"m not doing what you told me to do!" How about when they punch each other? OR maybe they don't do that. She said her children are mild-mannered by nature, so it's all well and good that she can preach to others about gentle discipline, but what would she do with a son who challenged every single thing she told him to do. All day long? I'd be curious!

[JeneralMom]

I am an AP parent. I run with an AP crowd and they run the gamut of radical to not radical. I have one friend who does not discipline, teach, etc her children and they are not pleasant to be around. They feel they are entitled to everything (like my food) and I have begun disciplining them as have many of the other parents (by this I mean telling her children to get their hands off my food, it does not belong to them but in nicer terms, or that repeatedly smashing my toddler on the head with a pool noodle will stop) to another friend who only models behaviour, does not force manners, and her children are lovely.

 

With my kids we model from the beginning. So, if someone has gas, we don't laugh we say "excuse you" and they really quickly pick up on it. I will, however, gently remind the children of expectations when we go places and will prompt with a quiet "manners" if they forget.

 

We went to a party and a couple walked in behind us. My (at the time) 6yo son turned around, put his hand out and introduced himself. "Hello, my name is XYZ. Nice to meet you." Poor thing stood there for about a minute with his hand out, looking increasingly confused, while the poor woman just stared at him. She told me later she was totally thrown by such nice manners in a child. She did eventually shake his hand, but it has become kind of a joke amongst my DH's work friends, how polite our kids are.

[AdventureMoms]

We didn't "force" manners either. DD is 3.5 and uses please and thank you most of the time. She's not perfect, but she's also three. We use lots of modeling, and sometimes explain things like "please" and "thank you" are kind things to say. She has always used them though, she speaks more or less the way she hears the adults around her speak (with normal 3yo speech imperfections, of course). It works for her, but she is eager to please and fairly even tempered.

 

The boys don't talk yet, but we do model politeness with them. I figure they will pick it up the same way they pick up the rest of the words and syntax of the English language - from hearing it. However I don't think there's anything wrong with directly instructing a child on how to use certain words if that's what your kids need. If the boys don't "get it" on their own, I'll teach them at some point. But it is pretty rude to assume that any child who hasn't been explicitly taught "please" and "thank you" is going to be totally out of control.

[Princess Peach]

Note to self: stay away from Mayim's dc. :blink:

 

Um, I think that's quite a leap to make. It seems unfair. Her kids are quite young still, but from what I've seen from interviews, Mayim is an intelligent, articulate, balanced woman. I'd love to hang out with her and her kids!

[Plucky]

I think it can have a lot to do with the child's personality. Ds17 was always a gentle, kind soul. I can count on one hand, the number of times he got into any kind of trouble as a little kid, (okay, he did try to suffocate his baby sister, but they were playing a pretty serious game of peek-a-boo with a pillow! LOL) He learned social graces, with no problem and would shake people's hands when he was 4yo. I didn't really have to teach him, he just did it.

 

DD13 was a whirling, ball of energy. She didn't stand still long enough to use manners. She wasn't impolite, she would bounce up and down with joy, she just didn't stand still, so you would have never known if she said thank you or not. I had to rein her in a bit, and teach her to be polite enough to make sure the other person saw her happiness, not as unruly rowdiness, but as pure joy.

 

DD5 is so bashful, that she won't talk to strangers at all. If I forced her to say thank you to the bakery person for a cookie, she would hand the cookie back instead. At home, if I give her the smallest little thing, she gives huge hugs and kisses and is very, very appreciative. I say thank you for her to strangers.

 

Each of these children have been raised in the same home and with the same basic philosophy of parenting. We allow our children to be fairly self guided. Each child needed something different from us. One didn't need guidance about manners at all, one needed a lot of guidance, and one you couldn't force into it at all.

 

If I had two of the same children, I may think that my parenting style, was the way I got results. Due to having such varied children, I now see that successful parenting styles, has less to do with the parent and more to do with the child.

 

I completely agree! I used to love thinking that my good parenting and hsing were what made my oldest turn out to be such a wonderful smart person. Being a good parent does help, but honestly he was born to be who he is.

 

I have 3 others all very different from him and each other. I don't pat myself quite as often on the back anymore. LOL

[RoundAbout]

In my family manners were not excessively emphasized and although I'm quite civilized at dinner and not at all rude, I do have a demeanor that my husband would describe as umm... "abrupt." I have to work on social niceties and wish that it was more automatic. Because of this I do emphasize "please" and "thank you" and "excuse me" with my son. This gets a positive reaction from the people around us (doctors, clerks, friends, etc.) which I think improves his self-confidence in dealing with others.

[LibraryLover]

Or maybe it's genetic... ;)

 

 

Maybe. lol Small children of polite parents are not always 'polite'. Little children do often run for shiny things. This is normal, and we intervene when necessary. A rational parent is not about to let the toddler sweep through a china or crystal shop.

 

So we hold hands, we avoid, we model, we explain. None of this has to be punishment or shaming. There are ongoing discussions about how to treat people and why. Empathy can be taught, and it's true some children/adults are better at understanding this than others.

 

But teaching empathy is part of parenting, and it can be done gently and respectfully.

 

Because children are treated gently, does not mean they aren't being well-guided.

[5wolfcubs]

Hey now, don't insult wolves! The pack disciplines!

:iagree: Absolutely!